The secret to landing a traditional publishing deal

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[@jtt8886]

That last part of the video is where my heart is at. I don't care about the money or a bazillion readers. I just get personal satisfaction from writing my creative thoughts. So, I'm not all that focused on publishing or such, if those things happen they happen. I just like expressing myself. In reality, the only audience I like to hear from is my wife.

[@jtt8886]

@@petrichor499 It came up on my KZbin feed. I'm a curious person. And I can do what I want.

[@zeropaloobatheuber1572]

I recently watched a video about a girl with a platform (writing advice on KZbin). When her book ‘failed’, the shame was so great she exited KZbin as well. I think that’s so sad but it really does remind me - the writing always comes first. A platform might sell books but if they’re bad, you might lose your platform too and be famous for all the wrong reasons.

[@aaronvond]

This video spoke to me. I wasn't writing for validation--I write because I must, like needing air. Still, I don't write as much as I used to because of the brutal push back I've received. I think this video fixed that. Oddly enough, it encouraged me *so much* I don't have words for it! Back out into the arena for me!

[@ammfapublishing3048]

Stumbled across this channel while looking for another one. Great stuff. Tim tells it how it is. As someone who spent ten years trying to get a publishing deal, this rings so true. Luckily I found self-publishing. Twelve years and 50+ books later and I’m glad I did it. Wouldn’t go near trad now unless I was offered six figures plus.

[@JoelCrumbleyAuthor]

The answer comes @11:24 for this who are curious

[@RanmaSyaoranSaotome]

Thank you. I wish he'd have got to the point quicker... Didn't need half of the filler before the answer.

[@jarnkarlinn]

Thanks for the no nonsense explanation of the publishing process. What that tells me is if the advance is less than 500k, might as well self publish.

[@MrRosebeing]

May as well self publish anyway. You will not get an advance of 500k dollars, pounds or clajeeks if you're an unknown author, it's all nonsense.

[@starquack]

Not sure what the point of this video was. Becoming famous, would be even harder than becoming a published author!

[@StoryGrid]

That’s kind of the point. Also, both of those are focusing on the wrong thing. - Tim

[@DrMadlenZiege]

Thanks Tim for that interesting video. That's how I got my first book deal - being on stage presenting my research as a biologist and then got picked up by an editor.

[@mroctober3657]

I look forward to the New York Times bestseller from Hawk Tuah Girl.

[@JoelAdamson]

I've read bits of SFF books that have been published recently because the author was a successful podcaster, Instagram influencer, or TikToker and they're awful, of course. It's really discouraging (not in terms of writing, but just the state of publishing and the world).

[@StijnHommes]

3:02 When you sign a contract, you give up publishing rights in a specific language. So you might well have sold the worldwide rights for publication in English, but that is not all publishing rights.

[@ElizaRad]

Wow! Thank you! This is what I needed to hear. I have been struggling lately with writing, because feel like I don't really have a purpuse anymore. I have self-published, I even got some good reviews, and I get to hold in my hands the books I created, but is so hard, and time consuming and the reward is so little, that I was looking for a good reason to continue. What you said at the end of the video really made sense. So thank you!

[@dnpuckitt]

That's such an eyeroll answer. He gives an answer that's harder to achieve than getting published.

[@litabrooker7872]

So. This teaches me that, however good the book, I'm Mrs Nobody and traditional publisher will automatically say no. That's fine. I'm not writing to be validated. Self-publishing is the way to go.

[@Yokar_mova1212]

The most depressing video doesn't exis-

[@WhiteBread221]

Hey Tim, can we get a video where you talk about how much story grid published/edited authors make? Especially if you can pull numbers from other Times bestsellers and/or other small publishers like Campfire and Wraith Marked Creative? A lot of videos like this one you sort of talk in vague numbers or you say “oh it’s $5k vs things like $500k-1mil publishing deals” but from the few agents and editors I’ve talked to, a lot of traditional publishers will offer $10-20k as an advance for first time as sort of the baseline so I would also be curious if you have any specific publishing houses or places that offer XYZ amounts. I’ve enjoyed quiet a few videos on this channel but this one in particular just felt like a lot of vague gesturing to non-specific numbers and concepts and it just felt a bit unclear as to what exactly your point was. I appreciate the work you’ve been doing either way👍🏻

[@thomasnimtoft1955]

That’s great advice. I’m in the process of trying to publish my book and you gave me valuable insights. Thanks 🙏

[@ardenskayakatrin]

You are the best. Thanks for the advice, now I know in what direction to move, and I know that I'm doing things right

[@AristizabalixGrimm]

Love the craft, build up a following, the publishers'll come to me. Got it. Thanks, Tim. You're a real one, bro. ❤💪🏻🤜🏻

[@zeropaloobatheuber1572]

I’m writing a 4 book fantasy series. If I get a deal and my first book fails, what happens to the other 3 books? I guess I can still self-publish but, if I don’t own the publishing rights to the first book, it’ll be a three book series that starts at the wrong place. Unfinished series suck (looking at you, Mssrs. Rothfuss & Martin).

[@artharris515]

I don't write for anyone but myself. Do I want people to like it and want to buy it? Of course, but I'm not going to stop if they don't. I guess the truth is hard to take. I always hoped that publishing was a merit-based system, but I now know it is like any other business that relies on who you know and some luck.

[@misc.2331]

A $5000 advance? I think if that is what was offered to me, I would just self-publish. $5000 would simply not be worth it for what you lose in signing. And also if I was famous and could sell copies of my book no matter what, I would probably self-publish too. Why share profit when I could just sell it myself and since I'm famous it would market itself too lol. Idk, traditional publishing just doesn't make sense on the low or high end. If a new author with a good story that is likely to sell and be well received can get a 6-figure deal, that would be worth it to me as the author. Maybe even a 2 book deal for that.

[@billphilpott3787]

Thank you so much for your help. I needed to hear that...

[@victoriawren8648]

Great video. This is exactly where I'm at.

[@scottjackson163]

So, if you are a writer who wants only the validation that comes from being recognized as a first-rate fiction writer, a master of the craft, how is one to obtain that goal if not by traditional publishing?

[@StoryGrid]

I believe that’s the exact question I answer in the video. - Tim

[@sunnyday6680]

His advice is get famous! Then you’ll get a publishing deal. 🤣🤣🤣

[@billy.bandit]

14:25 What big authors on the NYT list did you work with?

[@ceeaymoore]

I would be very interested to know how (for fiction writers, specifically) the Fiction Magazine pipeline of selling short stories/novellettes/novellas works. Which is to say; rather than starting your marketing push before even pitching your book by cultivating a big media presence, is it anything to a traditional publisher to show a history of publication (and possibly awards/nominations) prior to submitting your first manuscript?

[@johngoogle8635]

problem is time, the length of time it takes to move your name (brand) through those magazine stages to build some cred, people, including editors, will usually forget you, too many new names coming at them all the time

[@StingyGeek]

Say you get a book deal - and it goes the way of most, which is nowhere. It gets a limited run, and most of that is pulped. The traditional publisher has done their 'job'. But you still want to get the thing read, even though it's not in stores anymore - what about those electronic copies on amazon and the like. Do they remain? Because I'm thinking if the traditional publisher pulls those as well, and basically can't be bothered doing anything useful, then I'd probably be thinking "No, I don't want a book deal. I want to self publish my book and make sure it is AVAILABLE for those who want to read it". Thoughts? I mean, seriously, what is the opportunity cost for most people if they decide to NOT go near a traditional publisher?

[@kell_checks_in]

The question I've never seen answered by anyone is why anyone should bother reading your stuff. If you have no one vouching for you, how can readers know whether or not they're wasting their time? Most of the success stories touted by self-publishers are actually about writers with a solid history of traditional publication behind them. There are some niche communities, like fantasy or romance, where the high turnover in writing means that readers are more willing to read self-published works, especially if they know the writer through a chat room or something similar. But those are few and far between. How are you going to sell your work to readers? Going on and on and on about how great your plot is doesn't make any difference if no one knows whether or not you can actually write a sentence. Great big samples might help, as in giving people two or three chapters free, but even then you're asking people to invest a fair amount of time just to figure out whether or not you're actually literate. This is the main question. How do people know whether or not you actually can write the English language? No traditional publishers aren't perfect, but at least they vet for literacy.

[@StingyGeek]

​@@kell_checks_in Why should I bother reading your stuff is absolutely a problem; that seems to be 'solved' by great cover art and, for online, a generous sample portion. That said, whether it is your novel sitting on a shelf amongst thousands, or, on amazon amongst millions, the problem of being found remains. I don't have a solution. I think people think traditional publishers solve that through marketing. Tim's made it obvious that the economics don't stack up - they can't help. I went to a fairly decent bookstore here in Australia looking for Brandon Sanderson's novels - for a really well known author, there just wasn't much on the shelf. And they had PLENTY of shelf space. It's just brutal out there....

[@GoombaTheCat]

@@kell_checks_inWhat is this rant? And as a non-sequitor in response to a good question...

[@dueling_spectra7270]

Yes, the e-books will remain on Amazon and the other ebook platforms (kobo, apple, nook, google books, etc.); the publishers wouldn't "pull" those books, they would just not bother to promote them and your book would fade into obscurity. With how successful indies have been with POD (Print on Demand) for physical books, some of the trad publishers have been adopting that tactic instead of making a large print run of thousands of books, which may not sell. It used to be that when a book went out of print (the publisher decides to no longer print those books) the publishing rights would revert to the author. That clause in a contract is rather mute when they can use POD to keep printing these debut and mid-list books in perpetuity. The next issue is: say you get a trad deal, they launch your debut...sorry, you're in bucket C. Now any marketing you chose to do, you are flying blind. You have no idea if it's working, if it's not working. You'll get an update, maybe twice a year? Meanwhile, you're competing against against all the other trad debuts who are also marketing blind, the rookie indies who don't know what they're doing, and the skilled indies. They're the ones who make it their goal to produce books that are indistinguishable in quality from trad, who have real time access to their sales data and can tell when things are going well or course correct when it's not. Who are focused on building trust and loyalty, so their readers keep coming back for new releases. They're perpetually advertising their back-list (older books) and writing in series, so they can advertise the first book and have the readers trickle through the subsequent volumes. Did we mention that they're actually making enough money to live off of? If you self publish through amazon, and have your ebook priced within the $2.99-$9.99 window, you get a 70% royalty on the sale; and most important, access to the data of when those sales come through. Or you can build your own website, sell ebooks that get delivered through Book Funnel, paperbacks and hard covers that automatically get ordered, printed, and shipped via POD with LULU or Book Vault (those printers have the ability to integrate with an author's website), get the income from the sales immediately (amazon sends out royalty checks for a month's sales two months later), and can integrate the face book pixel to run more effective digital ads. Now there is a huge learning curve to self publishing, but there are incredible resources that can teach you everything you need to know, and most of them are free. The Spa Girl's Podcast and the 20BooksTo50K are probably the two best ones to start with, they're here on youtube. Many of The Spa Girl's videos in the last few months have been tackling the basics if indie publishing. 20Books has recorded sessions from their conference on self publishing, which are a mix of craft, marketing, business, and I especially love the genre panels. If you decide to go this route, one of the first things you will notice is that much of the "recommendations" seem to contradict each other; it's one of those cases where there isn't one correct way of doing things. There are multiple ways to succeed, which is good because we all have different talents, as well as different definitions of what success looks like. Two things to start off with are to make a list of everything you're good at, and decide where you would like the focus of your readers to be? On you? On the worlds you build? Or on the characters? That way you have a better framework for deciding if a strategy is right for you.

[@StingyGeek]

@@dueling_spectra7270Thank you for the time and effort in providing this response. Much appreciated.

[@firestarter4Him]

Great video!! 🎉

[@kenward1310]

Great video, as usual. Thank you, sir.

[@BuildingCharisma]

Any suggestions of how to get testimonials before self-publishing your book?

[@HigherSelfKorea]

Very very good advice! Thank you~

[@adambacon8353]

Somebody once said, "A writer writes."

[@PaulaScardamalia]

This was absolutely fabulous and so on point. I decided long ago, I had to write. I had to tell stories and share ideas, no matter how they get out in the world. Good to be reminded. Thank you.

[@tinazgonik5904]

Can you make a video about howto get translations, publusher's rights and practices, revenues... thank you for all informatio you share, I find your videos very useful and inspirational.

[@leenaronalds4155]

This is obviously aimed at the American market. Here in the UK agents and publishers don't give a damn if you don't have a "platform", unless you're writing non fiction. If you write a great piece of fiction with a strong hook, that's instantly gripping, and which the agent believes is going to sell, then that's all anybody needs. Platform schlatform.

[@a.allynharker835]

Bravo, Tim. You brushed on this the first time we talked but I wanted to know MORE. This is the 'more' that I wanted. You nailed this. Thank you for pulling aside the curtain. It feels very much like the Wizard of Oz-ish. The Great Oz, of course, being the Big Publishing House. Thank for letting us see through your eyes.

[@TiaLove28]

i would not want to get published based off a popularity contest. i just want to complete a book so my daughter can read it one day

[@12thDecember]

I'm sitting here listening to you say "become famous to ensure a publishing deal," and thinking RUFKM? I can't stand the whole social media frenzy because I'm not a people person, so I'm dead in the water if it takes influencing people to be successful at book marketing. David Baldacci is a great example of "write because you love to write." He is prolific, meticulous with research, and incredibly successful. In his Master Class he makes it clear that even if he didn't profit from writing, he would continue writing for the rest of his life as long as he is able. We can look at his success and be, like, "Sure, easy for you to say," but he's a true writer to the marrow of his bones.

[@StingyGeek]

The whole "get insta-famous" thing is terribly unattractive.

[@vincedova2177]

Pursuing the validation or being offered a trad book deal and vigorously pursuing excellence at the craft are NOT mutually exclusive goals, unless you choose to make them so. If you totally divorce yourself from the idea of making money as a writer, they essentially become completely compatible. I have no need to make money with my writing; nor any expectation that I ever will. Ergo, I have little interest in actually executing a traditionally publishing contract. BUT I am aggressively pursuing one anyway, just for the validation--which I have deemed personally important. I will accept that validation,when I get it, but I will most likely turn down the deal I am offered, and then confidently move on to self-publishing with a fully-committed marketing effort driven by a team of collaborative artists of my choice. And I don't care if I ever make a dime doing it. For me, the definition of winning is producing entertaining books that a significant number of people actually read and enjoy--and getting better at it with every subsequent iteration.

[@robertrdbrooks7658]

I learned a long time ago to internalize my power, not, externalize my power. I live life for me. I'd like to include, I like to be the best I can be for, me. I've also come to the realization being a writer, could, but probably won't bring in big figures. Sadly, the reality is, it's a way of bringing in some additional income. So, on the real to real, I write the best I can learning more and more about my craft everyday. In reality I don't see myself as celebrity any time soon? But hey! Give your dreams a chance! Believe your a success, your a success. (In your heart to you.) Believe your a failure and your a failure. (In your heart to you.) Thank you, Tim.

[@mroctober3657]

So Step 1: Get famous.

[@marcusspaur]

There is a lot of chew on with these words. Thanks for sharing! I have a lot to think about.

[@johnparnham5945]

This has not been explained in such detail before, You have just put me off the idea of traditional publishing. Self publishing is expensive so it it seems that going full time is going to be more difficult than I realised.. I have gone too far now to give up so I guess that I'll have to do my best but not have too high an expectation for my future career. I suppose that it's good to know the truth. I had better learn to market and hope that it sells.

[@stephenlogsdon8266]

Good video.

[@mariaholmdahl9949]

Can we back up to the getting an agent part? That's where I'm failing.

[@StoryGrid]

Jane Friedman usually has a class addressing this: janefriedman.com/online-classes/ - Tim

[@threechaptersaday]

So I start like right now.

[@starklingspars8956]

The Bookeaters got 100k advance and 300k deal for 3 books, and a marketting plan. It was Tor...is that unusual?

[@StoryGrid]

Yes. That is very unusual. I guarantee there’s a backstory that warrants this. - Tim

[@starklingspars8956]

@@StoryGrid What kind of backstory? ( Just wondering what you mean) Publishing Rodeo podcast ( hosted by the author) is open about it. Author was not famous or anything. I followed her on Twitter before she even had written that book. I expect it is unusual though as haven't heard of that before. I knew a friend of a friend got 40k for her book deal with Tor back in 2012. I thought that was a lot back then, because I was younger lol. On Publishing Rodeo Scott Drakeford got a ten K deal per book and I get the impression if you settle on a low deal it marks you as worth only that amount for life. Anyway looking forward to bingeing your vids

[@ComedorDelrico]

If I'm famous and I have a platform with a big audience, I can market the book myself. In that case, why would I give a publishing company 90% of the profit? If I'm using my established platform/audience, I can self publish and keep 70% of the profit. To my mind, the only reason to trad publish would be to get the advance. I think I'd need 10K to make it worth it, though.

[@zhadebarnet3773]

What a freaking brilliant video. Ngl, you nearly lost me when you answered the first question... very nice midpoint flip there, my man ❤

[@sonja.86]

Get famous somehow or stay under your rock forever... It's so sad how our world works. Nobody cares about good literature or a good message or even good entertainment. If you aren't famous, nothing you do matters. Hmm... I don't want to agree with that on any level.

[@StoryGrid]

“If you aren’t famous, nothing you do matters.” Is that really your takeaway from the video? - Tim

[@sonja.86]

Nope. That's what my last sentence was for. 😅 I think you were right when you said someone like Kardashian can sell anything just because of her fame. But I think it's frustrating to hear that without such fame another person won't even get the chance. I want to write stories. Not merchandise.

[@adrianstumpp5883]

Why don't you show us the Story Grid of Kim Kardashian's selfies. Put it on a t-shirt.

[@StoryGrid]

😂 love it! I will spend hours closely analyzing and studying every single one! - Tim

[@schlumbl84]

Sooo... the way to get famous is to get famous... Yeah, no. Not useful.

[@nyxcole9879]

Love what you do, hone your craft, be a badass writer people cant ignore, I think this is the takeaway ❤

[@PhoenixCrown]

Preaching truth! We writers have the advantage that few of us a delusional enough to think we'll be the next JK Rowling. (Of course, we still hold out hope, but we know we have to write a REALLY GOOD book/series.) Because of that, this is NOT the hobby you get into to get rich. So most of us just want to improve, share our stories, and leave something behind. Thanks Tim.

[@catherinerobson5482]

Run for office :)

[@StoryGrid]

Ha! KZbin comments are all the negativity I can currently handle! (Besides yours of course 😀) - Tim

[@joshuamctaggart6732]

I don’t get it. Become a successful personality and then you can sell books. I would assume you be putting all your time and effort into becoming that personality and have absolutely no time to write a book. I don’t like this advice at all.