How do truly monstrous Vampires work in the Sabbat V5 book?

[@tinymushroom6977]

As one of the old players I must say it's disappointing that the Sabbat will be an antagonist only option in V5. Some of the most nuanced and interesting characters I've played were Sabbat, and it's sad to see a new generation of players lacking that opportunity for exploration in standard V5 (of course I assume many GM's will homebrew them as options).

[@otakuofmine]

there isnt really a need to homebrew as they give us the mechanics like disciplines at the hand how they are used normally. its more the primer and how its used in the book itself. but the material itself will gives us the opportunity as far as i understood it. like dont play it, but here are the rules nontheless. like they always did. :D

[@tinymushroom6977]

@@otakuofmine Don't get me wrong I'm very much interested in what this book will bring and avidly enjoy playing V5, just that sans support for Sabbat chronicles in the core material will mean a large swathe of new players not being able to partake of that sort of game. To me it's a missed opportunity to take the lessons learned by the community over the years on how to effectively run such chronicles centered in the respect for others comfort which has been such a blessedly forward component of V5. Certain things such as the Vaulderie will need homebrewing though the vast majority of things such as Paths of Enlightenment can easily be handled through the existent rules 😊

[@otakuofmine]

@@tinymushroom6977 we already know the paths are in it and it would be weird if vaulderie wouldn't be. Like said it's more the attitude. Storywise it makes sense. It still adds the rules For pure roleplay we have the old books, which is beauty of this approach. But point taken, sure it makes it harder for new player without either old books or knowledge/advice to flesh it out. But hey a good ST can make it too.

[@thecounselingcouch68]

Justin Achilli stated in the interview that everything needed to create a Sabbat character was in the book but their goal was to have them used as antagonists.

[@thorthorson9926]

What I'm hoping for (primarily) is what they're doing world-wide. From the tid bits given thus far, the Sabbat is a shrinking sect.

[@Huddyvonschland]

Come for the hair flip, stay for the lore drops. Excellent as always, darling!

[@StrangeAdventures]

Thank you!

[@n.henzler50]

My only fear is if his hair gets any more sassy, it may take over his channel completely.

[@Kholan95]

@@n.henzler50 I'm here for it

[@rawrbeez6625]

I hope it still represents the full spectrum of Sabbat belief and culture. Their enemies think they are mindless, inhuman monsters. But they’re only half right. There are paths that are all about killing the corrupt and uplifting the weak, and thee are paths about crushing the weak to elevate yourself. There is a LOT of nuance in the Sabbat...

[@silentcomedyW5]

The best Sabbat tid bit that has been written so far was actually in the Camarilla book. Victoria Ash talks about the horror of what the Sabbat is becoming after gorging on ancient blood. And she tells why she will never take another Tzimisce lover. Aside from that i I believe Justin Achilli and Outstar confirmed that the Sabbat are meant to be antagonists, but they have the content to be played for the people interested in sabbat Chronicles, it just isnt the intention of how the book was written, choosing to be written as more of a storyteller tool than a deep lore book for players

[@levkamenev3904]

Dude, it would be sick if the Sabbat made an appearance in Stitch of Fate!

[@ashadeofnight]

Have you listened up to date? It's looking likely

[@levkamenev3904]

@@ashadeofnight No, I’m a little behind! That’s awesome though! It’s tough to beat the Sabbat and the Baali as antagonists.

[@ismaelvictoralves318]

I like the book concept, sabbat as enemies, antagonists, aliens. But that will definitely not stop me from STing a sabbat chronicle on v5, at all! It's becoming something like playing a spectre chronicle on wraith the oblivion, and that is cool af. you know you're damned, you're evil, you're in hell, now let's destroy everything and kill ourselves in the process bc why not? take revenge, release your wrath. can't help for the book to come out. tks for the great review and analysis as always!

[@ejc2064]

thats not how I play sabbat at all.

[@MarsM13]

@@ejc2064 I play Sabbat as vampires dedicated to a system of morality that fits their new species, and attempting to gradually become paragons of that path.

[@ejc2064]

@@MarsM13 lets destroy everything and be damned is more of a non free state anarch or pure bali samedi imo.

[@morgathing]

A hard copy book of nod? Yes please! Can we get Revelations of the Dark mother too??? Pretty please!

[@fo0liner1985]

Mark Rein-Hagen made a simple promise.. : "You are the monster" I'm sure im not the only one waiting for alternatives to the path of humanity to return. until then i suppose we have the old books.

[@rawrbeez6625]

The alternatives to the paths are already kind of there...convictions and tenets....

[@fo0liner1985]

@@rawrbeez6625 you can homebrew all these systems to your liking if you are playing with a closed round of people. it'd just be nice to have an official alternative to the humanity tracker in v5.

[@rawrbeez6625]

@@fo0liner1985 I don’t disagree... I feel like depending on how you run the chronicle, Humanity is horribly broken in v5.... like if your campaign is back to back consecutive nights, there’s gonna be a lot of stains. A character could go into wassail after two in game months while other kindred have been doing horribly evil inhuman shit (or giving the orders) who are at humanity 5. I kind of miss the hierarchy of sins (from vtr, I have no true experience with pre v5 VTM besides bloodlines and a LOT of reading).

[@rdqnev]

all this talk has prompted me to finally read the Revised-era Sabbat book, such a treat! I’m very much intrigued to find out how the V5 interpretation treats them, especially since the book developer is the same for both editions.

[@otakuofmine]

it makes me checking the W20 as well.

[@rdqnev]

@@otakuofmine such a pretty book, definitely give it a shot! rage across the world was also one of my favorites.

[@otakuofmine]

@@rdqnev that one is on my reading list too.

[@lysander1]

Great video. Pity we can;t play as sabbat but I get their concerns about facilitating a literal death cult simulator. lol. Also, buddy, your hair is wonderful!!!! Gahhh!!!

[@rawrbeez6625]

To be fair the Sabbat mostly hate the Antediluvians because they betrayed Caine, so it’s not too hypocritical if you look at it that way....

[@ejc2064]

also they blame antediluvians for the curse the clans had received after the betrayal. Many in the sabbat want to destroy them to have caine remove the curses from they clans he made when he returns.

[@rawrbeez6625]

@@ejc2064 without realizing that Caine never really wanted there to be more of him... idk how anyone else feels, but I don’t see Caine as a tragic villain, but more as a sad lonely man who only ever wanted to do good, but who was ruled by his own emotions, to tragic ends. No matter how the propaganda reads lol

[@ejc2064]

@@rawrbeez6625 thats the thing about vtm its all about perspective of the sect and pc you play. But not many in sabbat are evil for the sake of being evil. Even path of night is about rooting out mortal evil and challenging the righteous to see if the are worthy of gods/caines gift by tempting them. Thats why they are so depraved. how can you know who is truly evil and righteous if you do not know the true depths of the dark and depraved. Wh else would you know how to test the mortals that you were sent to guide and chose. And depending on the st if caine did come back one he would eat everyone just to do so and 2 would more then likely damn those on that path. If you belive the book of nod or revelations of dark mother.

[@rawrbeez6625]

@@ejc2064 for me, if Caine comes into play in my campaign, he is looking for a release of his millennia old curse. He’s looking for death, and with him, all of his progeny... but how can you remove a curse placed on you by God? By turning to the new God...science.... My table gets verrrry pulpy and I am not ashamed lol

[@ejc2064]

@@rawrbeez6625 Ah the technocracy touché...

[@rekadd]

i think people are getting to caught up in the playing sabbat stuff we already have all the tools to play them in the current v5 rules its almost no effort to homebrew it with how flexible the tenant and conviction rules are and it would be good to get an antagonist book and presenting the sabbat that way is inline with the original point of the sabbat either way i do personally want a book released that gives clear mechanics on how to play them but it should probably be a few pages in another book like a sidebar in this sabbat book or put into a book on bloodlines or just focused on middle eastern chronicles exploring the gehhena war

[@Loquification]

Super looking forward to this. Especially the perspective of Sabbat deemphasising clan as a way to distance from the Antidiluvians. I'm so glad its going to exist at all given the Sabbat's controversy.

[@theOriginalS.P.]

I really don’t get the fuzz about the “antagonist” thing. Achilli has clearly stated that you can totally play the Sabbat as presented, it is just not the perspective of the game, to keep the sect more horrific. I am pretty sure that homebrewing a playable version just means to ignore that it was intended for SPCs. There will be no further work involved. I actually like that the Sabbat, which was kind of “the same as the Camarilla but different” has now become its own interesting thing. And I always thought, playing Sabbat is… intense, only with the right people, with the right mindset, in the right mood and with expandable characters. Whoever thought otherwise has a different understanding of these sect and could therefore just apply his or her take on the new stuff as well. But some people just want to complain, they are not interested in solutions, unfortunately.

[@otakuofmine]

totally agree! it is as simple as that. also dont get why some people just have to hate and willful ignore.

[@lkriticos7619]

I'm enjoying these lore videos. It's a nice way to get an overview of the background and what is in e5 and what isn't.

[@StrangeAdventures]

Thanks!

[@thorthorson9926]

I can't wait for this book, tbh. And I'm a player from 2nd Edition. One thing that disappointed me about the Companion, in regards to the Salubri, there wasn't anything about the Warrior caste.

[@jennythebean9117]

Honestly the Sabbat book should have Salubri or Tzimisce as a playable clan. The Companion should have stayed with rules for mortal and ghouls.

[@YuriRamosBragaFerreira]

Ah yes my boy Shaun made a video about the book. That is what i have been waiting for.

[@jonathanwesley5189]

the sabbat will be super fun to play i've never really liked the whole camerilla sect, Anarch was cool for a bit but we still had to follow the masquerade but once this comes out i can say good bye to masquerade and hello gehenna war

[@Erykthebat]

Crusade? You mean Jyhad!

[@anierinllyfael9740]

Ahh yes, I cannot wait for this too come out. I've wanted updated lore for my lovely immortals since the Anarch and Camarilla supplements came out.

[@Sleck06]

I've been playing v5 with my friends for the past 6 months and we've just started our first sabbat Chronicle based on the "Fear and loathing 77". It's easy enough to homebrew the viniculum rules etc and just start PCs on humanity 4/3. Although I'm curious about the new take on paths of enlightenment. I take the point on some groups just wishing to indulge in extreme violence in sabbat games but if done well they can be so much more than that. If the storyteller does their job right.

[@SigfridSWE]

Finally!!! Yes! The Sabbat!

[@Mr._Matt]

Great video! Although I'm probably too chicken to ever actually play a TTRPG, if I ever did play as a Sabbat, my interest would not be in being as horrible as possible, but being more so the opposite, given my interest in moral quandaries and the "necessary evils" of the Kindred world. Were I to play Sabbat, my immediate thought would be to portray a Kindred living a relatively uneventful (i.e. low starting XP) unlife who has been around for a few years and has eventually seen enough evidence to come to believe that the entire world is at risk from the return of Antediluvians. The Anarchs are too busy bitching about the Camarilla to do anything about it, the Camarilla is too busy turning a blind eye to the Antediluvians, and going it alone means no organizational support. The Sabbat is the clear choice for someone willing to put it all on the line to effectively "save the world," even at the cost of his own humanity. Such a character would have to make a zealot-like commitment to the cause, doing what he can to minimize casualties and maintain his personal convictions, but inevitably having to kill humans and Kindred who refuse to get out of his way because his mission is bigger than himself, and bigger than all of them. It's like the Blues Brothers being "on a mission from God." Needless to say, the character would be a rather moral Kindred at the start, but go on a downward spiral as he does what he must to "save the world" over the course of the campaign, until he's a shadow of even the Kindred he once was. So sort of a tragic anti-hero role without leaning too hard into edgelord territory. =p But hey, I'm too much of a wuss to play TTRPGs, and I agree with your assessment that most players who want to play Sabbat seem to want to be hyperviolent, probably from sheer desensitization and hope for some whimsical lulz, so a character like will only ever be just another random nugget I daydream about. XD Thanks again for the fun video, Josh! =)

[@storytellerofpagemasters4489]

Your character idea sounds like the new coven member description on the back of the guide to the Sabbat , just more detailed. And why would you not playing a ttrpg make you a wuss?

[@Mr._Matt]

​@@storytellerofpagemasters4489 Oh does it? Ha, I suppose I'm not terribly original then. XD Well, I've watched hundreds of hours of TTRPG shows, but I'm quite skittish at the prospect of ever participating in a TTRPG. It's an interesting idea, but have ample self-doubt and lack sufficient courage to partake.

[@storytellerofpagemasters4489]

@@Mr._Matt don't worry about being original , worry about having fun. Speaking of fun just give it a try. Watching is one thing playing is another. Don't play to the standards of some live play videos like L.A. by night, play with the intent to have fun with a group that meets a realistic standard of your type of fun. I think you'll would have fun with my Sabbat games and find that paths are just as challenging with the moral dilemmas you find interesting. And there's plenty of people out there who do the same as I. So get those fangs wet, and you'll eventually discover a good group of friends to play with.

[@Mr._Matt]

@@storytellerofpagemasters4489 Thanks for the advice! I appreciate it. I may give it a whirl someday. =D

[@ejc2064]

well for some one who doesnt play ttrpgs you sure do get the sabbat!! And if I had a gross edgelord in my group I would dangle bali in front of their face and when the pack (if they are true sabbat and good knowledgable vets of the WOD) find out he deals with demons they would burn him alive and I wouldn't stop them. Because thats what happens in the sabbat they hunt down those type of vampires and end them swiftly. Many absolutely believe they are on a mission from god esp lasombra.

[@geminianpoet]

Thnaks for the summary! As an ST & longtime player of Vampire the Masquerade, I'm RELLY looking forward to this book. I agree with everything your whole analysis of Sabbat being excellent inhuman NPCs/Antagonists that I simply don't enjoy as PCs. I've been in a couple Sabbat-PC-games over the years, and just didn't every enjoy them. Like you said, they became excuses to be terrible monsters. But hey, like you said, to each their own :)

[@tomaswallmur7616]

I would be surprised if the blood brothers bloodline isnt included in the sabbat book, it is really hard to put it somewhere else. Hopefully we Will also get updates on the kiasyd, But not as sure that they Will be presented in the book since Marconius, the founder of the bloodline changed sects. Great video btw, intresting to see someone as intrested and insightful dive into this and what conclusions you draw.

[@ossiliere]

About the lore. Is this book will portrait the Sabbath packs returning from the Gehenna crusade?

[@enoughofyourkoicarp]

Is this a new version of the book of nod they're releasing? I'm confused, the book of nod was released decades ago. Assuming that it's a new version and not a re-release or special edition or something do we have any information about what they might have changed?

[@michaelblackett8195]

Like the sound of it, intrigued to find out if Caine 's Chosen/black hand still exists within the Sabbat V5

[@michaelblackett8195]

...besides, if they are to include any bloodlines, if any at all, possibly the Blood Brothers... Which like the Gargoyles in previous editions I only included as story background as not true vampires

[@theOriginalS.P.]

The discipline power that calls the blood from someone else reminds me a whole lot of the ability of the Blood Brothers (if survivable). I wonder if we will get them in the Sabbat book in some fashion.

[@otakuofmine]

they gave us the vohzd, even if it is a rare thing - would be really weird if they wouldnt.

[@SaintWiccan]

Do you think we will get Clan books? I'm excited for all this information. I haven't been able to play, but I do enjoy the lore. :)

[@Axiom0912]

OMG Sabbat! Embrace the beast!

[@Marius-sh2wo]

I just want to say if you want to know more about the sabbat you need to read Montreal by night for those who are interested have like it and I really want to know more what happened in Montreal after the fall of the Sabbat.

[@Erykthebat]

Technically the Sabbat are teh good guys.

[@Nitenshi]

No.

[@JoeStoryteller]

Oh, forgot to add: just because its a MM in no way do I hope it will minimize the dramatic impact of these vampires.

[@JoeStoryteller]

This is an antagonist book for V5; Praise Caine!!!

[@andreastremerewaya]

Love your hair (said a bald guy) another well done episode

[@johnwalsh4857]

Looks like Lucita lost all her humanity and has become Sabbat all the way. wow...my fave character.

[@yari4046]

imo sabbat really appeals to me more than any other sect, all other sects pretend at least to some extend that they are humans even if they are factually dead and only animated by their blood it's only the sabbat that try to accept their nature fully, it's a shame that they are most of the time cast as the bad guys even though i at least believe that you can make a convincing argument that vampires just like humans are just people that exist and therefore have some right to exist

[@rcautela7405]

Blood brothers I'm looking atcha

[@tomaswallmur7616]

Go Jersh!

[@rcautela7405]

KAM ahh REE YAAH

[@Erykthebat]

Let's eat some Antedeluvians , PRAISE CAINe!

[@nonamegiven202]

I'm mixed on their decision myself, reinforcing the default way to play instead of expending players options isn't not the direction i would prefer even if i never actually play sabbat. Though that's kind of a problem V5 has in general honestly; Thinbloods are suppose to be fresh off the bus, you're not suppose to play elders, Caitiff are suppose to be untrusted outsiders, and such. though I'm mostly annoyed by the Sabbat stealing the concept of a "post-clan society". It was such a fun idea form the Anarch unbound book, the free exchanging disciplines and it being rude to ask someone their clan making facing anarchs highly unpredictable.

[@clairestark9024]

On reflection I'm really not sold on carmarilla vs anarch in comparison on sabbat vs carmarilla. The 3rd ed conflict was a lot more complex and interesting and the sabbat were a lot better fleshed out in comparison to 5th ed anarchs vs carmarilla conflict which feels strangely asinine. Not in the least because the anarch don't really have a distinct governance or ideology.

[@rcautela7405]

I suggest u Read up on the Cathars

[@overlordgames1394]

About Sabbat's Malkavian?!

[@garagefoot2015]

Sabbat are not a player option in V5 ? Hold my beer!

[@Erykthebat]

I can haz temporis?

[@rcautela7405]

It's all the Ravnos fault

[@antoinelatrompette4911]

Pas besoin de ce livre pour jouer un vampire du Sabbat, les anciennes version de vampire vous donneront toutes les clefs pour y arriver.

[@rawrbeez6625]

There are no Hecata old enough for the beckoning

[@rawrbeez6625]

@@jeffking8903 Hecata doesn’t really have one progenitor. They were created in the 21st century through blood sorcery. It bonded the many respective “clans of death” into one through dark rituals and what I assume is a pretty respectable amount of human sacrifice.

[@beaushaver3779]

As a legacy player I'm glad the Sabat was largely destroyed and they are now npc's. They were always just too evil to be worked with, and the players would immediately be at odds with any other players.

[@rcautela7405]

Ritae have been round forever

[@ashadeofnight]

Shame they aren't playable characters! :(

[@otakuofmine]

they totally are. its just the primer and in-book narrative. the rules will be there to do so

[@PeachyPixel28]

I'm here for the hair and totaly not here to learn more about the Sabbat

[@phaerlax]

Twink jersh for vid bodes well for the book a good omen

[@Abyssal86]

V5 disappoints yet again.

[@sinmaan7568]

The concept of Sabbath is cool, but not realistic. With their numerous breach of the Masquerade they should have been wiped a wile ago by the werewolves or the Inquisition.

[@SaintAlexander871]

“It won’t include ways to play as a sabbat” lieeeessss. You can def use this book to play sabbat lol.

[@mrraisbeck]

Not sure how I feel about the final comments about sabbat players only wanting to play out horrible scenes. This is a horror RPG where you are the monster, sabbat players aren't unaware of the need for consent? We just want our faction and lore to be accessible and supported. But I mean all the tools are there to play them now, just don't feel there's any need to mark sabbat players as other with this idea we just wanna do weird uncomfortable scenes without consent??

[@ejc2064]

Ive seen and heard of some real messed up stuff from cam players before. In a sabbat game you kind of know what your getting in to and that should be covered in session 0. If you have a good st and players its not nearly as bad as its made out to be if they know alot about the sabbat. Its not I'm evil incarnate murder hobo thats the bali and some of the fringe clans. Most sabbat pc's should truly believe they are doing the work for the greater good of their kind. I've played sabbat on the path of humanity just fine with very little problems. I dont get this need to punish sabbat players due to some bad eggs while reinforcing the stereo type that caused the bad eggs in the first place. I dont like making sabbat BBEG all the time when they just aren't. I dont like how V5 keeps taking away choices and the shades of grey of the lore esp when the new lore IMO honestly just not that good. Lasombra scared of methuselah and runs to cam make NO sense it just doesnt. Period. THat is the dumbest thing I have ever heard in wod more so then the god machine. Now the inquisition or a move from the inside, or false flag, having the cam secretly be the sabbat that I could buy or get behind. Like ok now you have given me more options and maybes to play around with. That what I like about the old editions they gave you all kind of it might be's maybe's depend on who you ask. I know we can do what we want but its nice not to have retcon lore to make things work for st and players. Why buy the books at that point if your just writing your own lore npc history etc, you know?

[@tiggerdyret]

The reason why they didn't make Sabbat playable is the reason I love V5. It's a game about personal horror and cutting ties with humanity stripes all of the dualism of being a Vampire away. I understand why people are mad, but I think the devs should make the game they want to make instead of the game people want them to make. Making the Sabbat playable would strip away all of what they are trying to achieve. It's like adding action mechanics to RPGs because they sell more.

[@b.bedhead4531]

This is a terrible reinterpretation of the Sabbat. Horrible horrible update to a world I loved.

[@Ivalid321]

I miss your beard, that one was rad.