"Strong Villains Make Strong Heroes" | HOT TAKE #3 Marvel Champions

[@webwarriorfanatic]

I forgot to mention the perception of Cable struggling against Hela because she ramps with side schemes in the Victory display. In my experience, Cable defeats Hela much more easily than he does against Ronan/Venom Goblin/Magneto so I still weigh the big 3 the most when evaluating Cable and he isn't an outlier like Deadpool or Hulk. I have a playthrough with Cable vs Hela here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/sHbLaZ6XnpWKjtk Let me know what other caveats exist and which heroes struggle the most with a random villain!

[@DaringLime]

Sandman is a nightmare for deadpool!

[@webwarriorfanatic]

Lol that’s a good one! I watched Nelson do that challenge and it was rough with everyone trying to add acceleration tokens!

[@Eeeville]

@@webwarriorfanatic Juggernaut can sometimes kill Deadpool in alter-ego as well.

[@DescryGamingMC]

Also, expert 2, the exhaustion with 2 damage can kill Deadpool

[@alberttaco3668]

I will just complete DaringLime comment by saying that what kill deadpool on the fly, out of nowhere, are mod sets, not villains, which make this Hero even weaker than stated in that video. The two mod sets i know are "under attack" core set, and "crossfire's crew" from The Hood. Those mod set can be added to virtually any villain in the game, including Ronan or Magneto, which makes Deadpool a glass canon no matter what in my eyes. He is a gambling machine, like Starlord, and even though Deadpool is much more consistent at rushing down, is also much more vulnerable to board wipe than starlord. Very good take, and video WebWarriorFanatic!

[@webwarriorfanatic]

Thanks Albert! That’s a fair take. I have yet to dive too deeply into modular sets but Deadpool is a hero that can easily countered. I think he’s able to persevere beyond that but it takes a lot of work (similar to how it took me personally a lot of work to get Hulk to defeat Magneto)

[@neojaw2192]

I agree… played GMW expansion with leadershiip Starlord and protection Drax, and through the campaign Drax was my main damage dealer, until Ronan, and SL game little glimpses of his potential damage every now and then… so when I got frustrated with Ronan I went all in with aggression Starlord and protection Drax, and with a lot of luck of the draw Starlord obliterated Ronan in 3 rounds (with a little the help of Drax), so for me, I really consider SL a top tier hero FOR ME, and definitely my favorite hero right now (currently playing MTS campaign with leadership SL and aggression Iron Man).

[@webwarriorfanatic]

That’s totally fair! You’re not the only person who I’ve heard say Starlord is a top hero. I know Daring Lime is also a huge Starlord fan :) thanks for sharing your experience

[@DaringLime]

Interesting thing about Ultron. Isn't it just the under attack modular that causes deadpool problems? Off the top of my head I can't think of an ultron specific card that will deal damage to deadpool in alter-ego. To add more layers to it, is it fair to evaluate the scenarios based off recommended modulars as well? or just the villain itself? curious to see your thoughts on that. I really like this hot take series you're doing.

[@webwarriorfanatic]

Thanks Lime! I personally do evaluate with recommended modular sets but i can totally see the case for not since we can technically play without it. Another anti-Deadpool tech Ultron has that i should have mentioned in the video is in stage 3 Ultron can’t take damage while drone minions are in play and his when revealed brings in a side scheme that brings 2 drones. So Deadpool is unable to focus all his damage on Ultron since essentially every drone has guard. This gets really bad if the drones swarm and they all have +1 HP from Ultron’s stage 3 effect too. I have a playthrough getting absolutely crushed by that 😂

[@DaringLime]

@@webwarriorfanatic Ya that seems really hard for rush strategies.

[@wkylegreen]

Well said! I agree with your logic on evaluating hero strengths this way. I do think that this matters mainly in solo. For multiplayer, I think every hero gets better. To me the “weakest” heroes are usually more specialized. And being specialized is better in multiplayer than solo. When is your hot take bottom five heroes going to be?? 😂

[@webwarriorfanatic]

Thanks Kyle! And i totally agree that in multiplayer everything gets more nuanced. We can build a team where one person doesn’t need to thwart and they can have a powerful deck for their role. In regards to bottom 5 heroes, i don’t think I’ll have a hot take on that because i more or less agree with the community. At least i think i do 😂

[@wkylegreen]

@@webwarriorfanatic 😂 you never know! But you’re right, those heroes do sort of line up.

[@gnarlantlers70]

Deadpool with endurance, frontline specialist & symbiote suit in play with the venom ally and Ipac - nonstop damage happening on both phases

[@webwarriorfanatic]

LOL why would you do that gnarl. Why?!?

[@gnarlantlers70]

@@webwarriorfanatic I was watching Michael Keaton batman and the let's get nuts scene came on and I was like, yeah. Let's get nuts

[@webwarriorfanatic]

@@gnarlantlers70 😂😂😂

[@TheRanudo]

There is no "absolute hero" in this game, and even strong heroes may struggle if not built with a good deck. Some heroes have this constraint more clear than others. For example, Hulk with 'pool is great to rush down villains as he can attack multiple times and boost his attack a lot, but other aspects do not integrate too well with his hero cards. War Machine is another example, he combos very well with Fly like a Butterfly, but it is very difficult to have some synergy with his cards and other aspect cards overall. After finding out what aspect lets your hero shine, there is the match up against the villain. Some heroes just can't thwart enough to have a good performance on quest-like scenarios, and they just suck if you switch them to justice/leadership. Some heroes just need time to build up their damage and some scenarios don't let you stay passive for too long (like Magog or Spiral). And, to add another layer of complexity to the mix, each player has their own way of dealing with the different villains and handling their heroes. Buts let's not talk too much about this, as I don't want to make it sound as I'm calling "skill issue" on anyone. That's not my point. Dr Strange is definitely a strong hero (He just recently carried our survival against the Rhino challenge on a 3-player game) that shines most in an avengers-leadership deck (that let's you ready him multiple times by exhausting an avenger ally) and I could argue that with that deck he can win almost any scenario *consistently*. But that is the catch: you need to build around his strengths to make it shine the most, and I think you made that clear on your video on that subject.

[@webwarriorfanatic]

Good points, Ranudo, and i agree with the nuances that you’ve pointed out. I think the conversation is definitely open ended and that there is no absolutely hero *cough Doctor Strange* like you stated. Glad to hear you guys were able to take down the Rhino challenge! I agree that Strange goes hard in that challenge handing out toughs and statuses to mitigate the steady from Super Strength.

[@jonahg3713]

First of all, Strange doesn't struggle against Ronan. He struggles against Ronan *in true solo*. There's a difference. I've gone entire 4P games without taking a single point of damage against expert VG with Strange. I've *almost* done the same against Ronan, but the stupid ship command indirect damage thing ruined that. Strange is demonstrably not the best true solo hero. He's game-breakingly powerful the more players at the table. It's not uncommon for him to do ~10 damage to the villain, stun them, pass out three tough status cards to take care of the rest of their attacks, and also remove a bunch of threat... each and every turn in a 4P game, starting on turn one or two. He can protect the whole table against Ronan's Fanaticism-driven attacks, simply by playing cheap allies and having tough heroes behind them to absorb the overkill. It's fine that you think Strange isn't all that in your particular situation (true solo). It's also fine that you weigh the hardest villains the most in making those judgements. You just can't tell me that Spider Man or Cable scale into a 4P game. Not the way Strange does. When I struggle with a villain or scenario in a multiplayer game, the ultimate cheat code is Strange.

[@webwarriorfanatic]

Good points. Personally, i find multiplayer too difficult to do power rankings for and the mode is in general more lenient for the player. Every hero can defeat every villain with high consistency if they have the right team and there are too many factors to consider. You’re right that I’m primarily talking about true solo!

[@Bumbum_Inspector]

Mechanically, I think Venom Goblin and Magneto are the hardest in the game. For just pure brute force difficulty, Ronan for sure with Nebula being up there sometimes based on her ridiculous surging potential, and then Loki I'd still put up there just out of annoyance and frustration with that villain. I'd also argue Collector 1 is still one of the hardest fights in the game on expert and with a really lame mechanic. For me, the heroes I have the most success with and the ones that I feel are the strongest are Psylocke (aggression or justice), Agent Venom (aggression or justice), Iron Man (justice only), Wolverine (aggression, justice or protection), X-23 (protection), Cyclops (leadership), Captain America (leadership) and Doctor Strange (anything). After more games, I agree Doctor Strange isn't top 3, but I'd say top 10, probably landing somewhere between 6 and 8. He's not the strongest but his spells and kit is just really good, has answers for practically everything, and you can see consistent success in every aspect with him. I'm also not a huge fan of leadership and ally swarm in terms of game play, so I generally rate those heroes lower just because of personal play style preference.

[@webwarriorfanatic]

Good points! And really interesting to hear a fellow doctor-strange-isn’t-in-my-top-5 perspective lol. Are those heroes your #1-#7? Because that’s a really interesting list, i usually don’t see Iron Man ranked so high but i also think he’s a really powerful hero.

[@svendejong8110]

TOP 5 VIDEO OF HEROES THAT ARE STRONGER THAN STRANGE WHEN?? 😊

[@webwarriorfanatic]

Lol I’ll do a full power ranking tier list this year when i finish playing every hero

[@prufrock1977]

Can you create a core set hero deck (and you can use GMW cards, too) to create a hero that beat expert level Ronan?

[@webwarriorfanatic]

A deckbuilder named andyr made a Spidey deck using only GMW for expert Ronan: marvelcdb.com/decklist/view/35693/ronan-like-the-barbarian-he-needs-a-shirt-1.0

[@prufrock1977]

@@webwarriorfanatic thank you for sharing this. Awesome 👏

[@prufrock1977]

@@webwarriorfanatic By the way, I think winning is more about skill (and a little luck). I’m a lot of decks CAN win, they just haven’t been piloted well enough before.

[@AncientSlumber]

I've easily won with Strange against expert Ronan and VG the first time I tried them and then again later as well (in true solo). I don't know why the take that he struggles against them, especially with leadership I found it very easy to win. He's the only hero I never lost with (and I played a lot with him). I can't say that for any other hero so to me he feels like 10 power levels above any other hero in the game, which is why I don't really play him anymore since he trivializes the game so much. I wonder if it's people playing him wrong or not building him correctly, but I really find it hard to believe that people struggle with him against any villain.

[@webwarriorfanatic]

I have all my playthroughs with him on this channel against expert Ronan/Venom Goblin. He’s not a top 5 hero in my documentation which you can see for yourself. I used decks with powerful combos that were recommended to me or regarded as “powerful”

[@AncientSlumber]

@@webwarriorfanatic Thanks, I'll go watch those :)

[@webwarriorfanatic]

@@AncientSlumber if you have any feedback to optimize Strange it would be much appreciated!

[@AncientSlumber]

@@webwarriorfanatic So I just finished watching the game where you beat Ultron. I have 2 suggestions for next time you play strange: 1. Try a deck that isn't too overly reliant on the Avengers theme. The extra setup for might Avengers isn't needed and just make it harder to play imo. Just play good general allies that have good effects when they get into play and then chump block. 2. Try to play Strange with the goal of playing 2-3 spells each turn. I felt that you were more focused on playing a leadership deck than a Strange deck (which I totally understand, it's strong, but not as strong as playing 2-3 spells a turn). Play around events like Earth's Mightiest Heroes and Get Ready to ready Strange and cards like Command Team can help as well. Maybe it's a playstyle thing, but I believe that leaning very strongly to play Strange cards instead of a standard leadership style would help you see how strong he can be. Either way love your videos, keep it up!

[@webwarriorfanatic]

@@AncientSlumber thanks for the feedback! Good pointers I’ll definitely keep that in mind next time i put Strange on the table :)

[@psovitzky]

By primarily evaluating performance against the elite villains yes you are in essence cherry-picking BUT with that said, you are, I think, showing what heroes are truly capable of. Yes, any hero can beat absorbing man and such, but the truly powerful heroes that can beat the elite villains are simply the strongest heroes. This does seem to come down to solo play. I never play one hero anymore as I just don’t like the game balance with one hero. Playing with 2 or more is much more enjoyable and allows for more selective Deckbuilding. Great video as always!

[@webwarriorfanatic]

Thanks Peter! And what I’m still cherry picking?! In your comment you said that the “truly powerful heroes that can beat the elite villains are simply the strongest heroes” and that’s pretty much my point. It’s subjective for sure but i feel like that’s a pretty standard measurement for power

[@psovitzky]

@@webwarriorfanatic no you misunderstood! I totally agree with you man! Yes you may be cherry picking as some critics say but THAT is the thing you did to objectively show who the strong heroes are!

[@webwarriorfanatic]

@@psovitzky ohh okay i understand now lol. Thanks for clarifying! And appreciate you everytime Peter 😁👌🏻

[@JJEMcManus]

Cherries? This late in the season? Are you mad? FFG has, for the most part, published villains and heroes that address the entire community. Arguing about who has the most powerful Whatzit is merely a portion of that community. Easier villains make learning your hero (and the game) simpler. Story villains play off theme and try to pull off narrative. Wanting two Super Saiyans battling every time is dull. It’s all forms of puffery but it does get clicks.

[@webwarriorfanatic]

I agree there is a place and spot for every hero, but i do enjoy power ranking discussions :)

[@IIIXouIII]

Bad take imo, since you can design a villain to have polarized match-up very easy for any of one specific hero and hard for others.

[@webwarriorfanatic]

So if one villain counters one specific hero and that hero can never beat that villain but can easily defeat every other villain would you still say that hero is S tier? I personally wouldn’t

[@IIIXouIII]

@@webwarriorfanatic my point is the other way around, you can make a villain only beatable by valkyrie and impossible for every other heroes, that will not mean valkyrie instantly become the best hero.

[@webwarriorfanatic]

@@IIIXouIII yep i agree that wouldn’t make Valk the best hero. Nothing in the video says otherwise. In fact, i give examples how i account for nuances

[@zeroisnine]

I don't think you're cherry picking at all.

[@webwarriorfanatic]

Thanks zero! I really don’t understand the perspective that im cherry picking 😵‍💫

[@laffywaffy1989]

And you have the right to your own list and stipid people get upset and start getting all pissy and talking bad about your list maybe they should make their own list. Strange may have been the strongest in the past and in the top five now there are better characters like Deadpool,cable and maybe bishop who could take down Ronan and other villains lot quicker than the other ones right away and you don't have to go through your entire deck to get the staple cards that can get you those high fast numbers but it's all on luck to get the right cards right away

[@webwarriorfanatic]

Thanks laffy! I think it’s fair to say my list is subjective, the criteria is off, or that I’m wrong… but ill double down that I’m not cherry picking arbitrary criteria and that it’s valid/normal to put more weight in the more difficult scenarios. Like if Ronan is the most important villain for you the heroes you listed are 💯

[@laffywaffy1989]

@@webwarriorfanatic everybody's entitled to their own opinion even if you waa cherry picking it's your own list if somebody is offended or gets upset which they shouldn't be thhey should make their own list or have a actual conversation in a debate on why they think that your choices were wrong

[@jonathanpickles2946]

There's no competitive scene so you have nothing remotely resembling an absolute way to evaluate strength. Your way is I think a good one but other people can happily use other criteria and there is no way to decide which criteria are best. I like hero who can do best with a bad deck or most able to win when piloted by a monkey. (or the MC emulation website; pace the creator as it's really impressive but the AI is inconsistent at best.) Overall I don't really care though it's interesting but unimportant.

[@webwarriorfanatic]

I more or less agree and everyone is entitled to their own criteria and preferences! That’s interesting you like heroes who can play well with a bad deck, I’m definitely the opposite