How Our Property Tax System Robs The Poor to Pay For The Wealthy

[@strongtowns]

Too late to make this change, but I (Mike) was unaware the term fair share was such a politically charged one. In this context, fair share = legal requirement. People need to pay what the law dictates they should pay. Thanks for tuning in, and hopefully that becomes clear when you watch the whole video.

[@aaronfield7899]

It doesn't make sense to pay for something you already have. The Constitution says the government cannot take away your property without due process of law

[@maxchaotic]

​@@aaronfield7899 buddy everyone wishes taxes didn't exist but unfortunately the structure of human society does not yield organizational governments that exist for free. you want roads, electricity, and water? gonna have to pay for the organization that oversees those. if you wanna appeal to the constitution for an argument that taxes are illegal, you are miles out of your depth. you don't have to like it, but it's true.

[@aaronfield7899]

@@maxchaotic there is a difference between pay taxes for something you just bought paying for taxes or something after you bought it. I have no problem with income tax because that's perfect constitution property tax is not

[@MonkeyMind69]

​@@maxchaotic ...One can be against certain methods of taxation, and not be against taxes in general. For instance; Gas tax, which largely pays for all the roads, is a very fair tax. The more one drives, the more gas they buy, the more they contribute to the roads they use. Even if you don't use roads yourself, but trek through the forest to the local convenience store for some milk, you contribute to the roads because the milk vendor rolls their gas costs into the price they sell to the convenience store, which would then get passed onto you. Alternatively, Income tax is people laboring for the government, under threat of force and punishment, if they don't turn over the fruits of that labor (now take a moment to remember what sIavery is). In this context and in my opinion ...everyone's "fair share" is Zero.

[@ortenciafigueroa2782]

Hola.no.entiendoo.de.esos.negocios.asi.espliqueme.en.español.okey

[@nio6297]

My house here in NC was listed for $80,000 for property tax purposes. I complained to the tax assessor that the home is overvalued and I was paying too much property tax. They sent an assesser to my home and he said it was worth $80,000. When I sold my home the realtor told me that $50,000 was the best offer. So, I had to sell my home for $50,000. So, the property tax in NC is completely corrupt and unfair. It doesn't matter if you appeal. They will gaslight and lie to your face.

[@dannydaw59]

Do you have an assessed value and a taxable value in NC? Up here in MI we have the Headlee amendment which says the taxable value cannot go up faster than inflation as long as the same person owns the property. Also if the actual value of the property is less than the assessed value then the owner can dispute the assessed value with the municipality and then a tax tribunal at state level.

[@jalicea1650]

@@dannydaw59 I think most conservative states don't have regulations like up North.

[@greensorrel6860]

@jalicea1650 I lived most of my life in a northern state and the taxes were.exceedinhly high and jobs and income low thus increasing the wealth gap

[@jalicea1650]

@@greensorrel6860 I have family in the South and they get paid next to nothing and barely get any benefits from their state. Northern states have higher taxes, but better overall social programs, education, and depending on where you live decent infrastructure, though the North deals with more issues due to winters. It's all dependent on where you live, what industry you work in and the services provided by your community. Northern states tend to provide better healthcare, education, and regulations which favor working classes. Wealthier people pay more, but due to stability of opportunity have access to better markets which provide better outcomes. Thanks to globalization this is becoming difficult for the North to sustain due to remote work, outsourcing and conservative states undercutting the Northern states industries etc.

[@seanmccay6448]

Same in TX. You can 'appeal' but they just bring it down a couple grand and there's nothing you can do about it if you don't want to go in person and spend a bunch of your time getting nowhere in a court or whatever. Ours is based on market value / comps near our homes. So if the market is stupid like in the bigger cities, you're boned.

[@aquaticko]

This seems like one of those issues that should be national news, with in-depth and systemic investigations into just how rampant the assessment gap is.

[@markk9530]

The wealthy wont care, aka the people who actually have power in this country. Our constitution literally allows slavery(of prisoners) via the 13th amendment, we have the biggest prison population in the world, and it's mostly hidden if you listened to mainstream media. This issue is no different, it will be largely ignored by the neoliberals(both dems and conservatives) in power who benefit from the system.

[@chinchillaruby4170]

Politicians don't run on policy anymore, well RFK might but that's besides the point. As funny as it is watching Pence and Vivek catfight on stage, it is very sad that politicians aren't talking about stuff like this that is actually affecting people's lives.

[@aznosu]

Can't bc they own you and everyone.. happens everywhere and bc 99.99% of us are good fair ppl, all we think is how could someone do this and then just go back to our jobs so they get rich. Welcome to humanity lol

[@therxlord3694]

The problem is the news is controlled by wealthy corporations that benefit from this system.

[@alexandergangaware429]

How is it national news? Nobody was even shot or anything

[@alanthefisher]

Fantastic video, I remember listening to the Urban3 presentation at the national gathering in person and being amazed that property tax assessment was that screwed up. Hopefully shedding more light on this can get it fixed.

[@strongtowns]

The room was packed! Let's hope this gets in front of the people who need to see it.

[@samueljackson856]

Lol no you tube video is going to change government. If anything the taxes will just get higher. Boiling frog.

[@ttopero]

@@strongtowns I’d love to see a follow up video about the role of the assessor, how to learn what they do & they’re limitations, as well as communities & their assessors that have transformed & improved and/or removed the inequities. This could lead some of us to run for the position if it’s a voted one and know what we’re getting into if we want to be part of the solution. Every state & county/parish is a little unique, but there are common aspects that can be foundational.

[@diogonunes1608]

This is maybe the 2nd video I see on this topic, so please tell me how wrong I am: There's no need to "visit" the homes to assess its value. Visit the websites of national (21 century, era, zillow) and local real estate developers and sellers to get an range of prices. Do the average and apply the tax rate. The problem, according to this video, seems to be nepotism and other personal conflicts of interest in social context and, as usually happens, complacency of the people in power. Start by making pressure on the official assessers to revalueate their homes. If they are forced to show how ylthey decide how much they should pay, maybe they'll have a vested interest in assessing everyone the same way, share that as public data (to avoid close doors meetings) and save tax money in appeals.

[@user-th1pv6ks5o]

@@samueljackson856 People are already getting their state to get rid of parking minimums because of a KZbin video, it is small, but it is something.

[@papaasante4994]

This is how the poor pay for all the infrastructure that the rich feel entitled to. As an insult to injury, rich neighborhoods are often flooded with amenities and public services that are denied poor neighborhoods.

[@nerdwisdomyo9563]

Pretty much as long as this countries existed it’s been the poor people putting their blood sweat and tears into work, only for the rich to get the benefits, and of course, a lot of racism “it was gods will we enslave black people/indigenous people to work on are fields” never forget that the country was literally founded on it

[@djliciousicecream7273]

The trade off is the welfare system. They give people the government incentives to keep it going and supposedly to take thier minds off yhe real problem. It just starting to effect more people now. The truth is coming out!

[@redtiger7268]

Some of the "amenities" are paid for by the HOA of the community. They are not "denied" to the poor they are just not attainable to the poor because of the wealth issues in this country.

[@randallbatridge8346]

Note the public services part of the comment, I don't think PapaaSante was talking about HOAs, because that's in addition to taxes....Don't purposefully confuse the issues.

[@discocycle]

​@@redtiger7268that's a separate thing. Plus, we still have these disparities even in places where HOAs don't exist. I only even know about them from KZbin. We don't have HOAs where I live.

[@ChristopherAbelman]

The financial system has been artificially pumped for over a decade to ensure big pockets were lined; and now those same hands will make a fortune in the largest transfer of wealth in human history by shorting it on the way down. Inflation does have a role, but that's to keep everyone panicked, and focused on their bills and expenses, rather than focus on the capital crimes of politicians and corporations,I'm still at a crossroads deciding if to liquidate my $338k stock portfolio, what’s the best way to take advantage of this bear market?

[@PennyBergeron-os4ch]

Find those stocks with yields that exceed the market and stocks that, at the very least, follow the long-term market trend. However, you should get guidance from a financial advisor if you want to create a successful long-term plan

[@FinnBraylon]

I agree, I've been collaborating with an Investment advisor for approximately 17 months. These days, it's really easy to buy into trending stocks, but the task is determining when to sell or hold. That's where my advisor comes in, to help me with entry and exit points , I've accrued over $337k from an initially stagnant reserve of $148K all within 18 months...

[@HildaBennet]

I need a guide so i can salvage my port-folio due to the massive dips and come up with better strategies. How can one reach this advisor??

[@FinnBraylon]

Google Sonya Lee Mitchell and do your own research. She has portfolio management down to a science

[@HildaBennet]

I just ran an online search on her name and came across her websiite; pretty well educated. thank you for sharing.

[@barryrobbins7694]

I saw this problem in Washington D.C. years ago. Longterm residents could no longer afford to pay their property taxes. Many multistory row houses would eventually fall into disrepair to the point that the upper floors were collapsing into the lower level. School district around the country rely heavily on funds from property taxes, making pathways to higher incomes more difficult for residents in low income areas. Then there are people that have multiple homes such as rental properties and vacation homes, homes for income generation or short term leisure. The property tax system is incredibly regressive.

[@yuki-sakurakawa]

Property taxes shouldn't be paying for this. Local sales and income taxes would be less regressive, especially if the sales tax were stepped (0% for essentials, 15% for basics, 30% for luxuries).

[@barryrobbins7694]

@@yuki-sakurakawa No matter how the taxes are collected, there is also a problem with distribution. Kids don’t get to pick their parents income level. Parents with higher incomes can pay for extracurricular music programs, sports programs, and private tutors. Funds need to go to kids that also need such help, but can’t afford it. These things used to be standard for public schools.

[@benzapp1]

At least DC has an income tax. It's much worse in the south (I know many think DC is the South). See Birmingham, Alabama. The city tries to levy an income tax, but has no real way to enforce or collect it due to a dysfunctional state. In Texas, regular people suddenly have $20,000 annual tax bills.

[@barryrobbins7694]

@@benzapp1 Yes, there is always someplace that has it worse. It certainly doesn’t make it acceptable. One can also say that at least Alabama has voting representation in Congress.

[@crazyeight9]

@@barryrobbins7694why should dc have House of Representatives representation

[@Red_crane]

There was a method in history for people to self assess the value of a good for tax purposes. In some areas merchants wanting to sell their goods had to report the value of these goods themselves and pay taxes based on that value. The thing keeping people from underreporting this value was that the government had the right to buy up the goods at the reported price. This system isn't perfect but maybe some aspects of this could be reused to keep things in check

[@joefer5360]

Wow. That is hilarious. I'd love a system like that.

[@caseymurray7722]

That honestly sounds like one of the best ways to deal with taxes in general. Individuals can set their price but they are locked into that value. Although for homes that doesn't work. Possibly implementing an increase in sales tax on the purchase versus the later sale price of a home would work. IE if you buy a home priced at 200k and pay property tax based on that value for 10 years, then sell it later at 400k you have to make up the difference in property tax value in the sale price of the home.

[@xylker]

@@joefer5360 Would you? How does "the government" afford to pay for the goods (your house) at the appraised value? They take other people's money (and yours) to buy the property. And then what? Sell to their "friends" at less than market value, because gov't doesn't need to turn a profit / break even. That's a terrible way to live!

[@c182SkylaneRG]

@@xylker It definitely seems like a system that works better for goods and services, than for real estate. But, in the context of those goods and services, it definitely seems like it's a good way of keeping people honest.

[@fallenshallrise]

Agreed. If your home is assessed for less than it's worth then any buyer should have the right to pay the assessed value plus 5%. And if your home sells for less than the assessed value then the city government should have to make up the difference, or at least rebate you all the taxes you paid at the higher amount.

[@RobinClower]

I was so confused the first time I got my home assessment in the mail after buying a house. I was super worried, because we bought a $430,000 house, and now it's being assessed at like $300k or something like that. I was freaked that I super overpaid and that I wouldn't be able to get back that much when we went to sell. My wife then explained that those values don't mean anything when it comes to selling your house, they're just for tax purposes, so the lower the number, the better for us. I still didn't really understand why we would have such a discrepancy, but I was fine with it because we already were paying ~$15k in property taxes, so it would have been like $25k if it was taxed at the zestimate rate. It sucks that this seems to disproportionately favor the rich, that's not something I knew about before this video.

[@strongtowns]

Check out the data for your city or country on the property tax project!

[@RobinClower]

@@strongtowns I guess my main question that I'd love to see in a follow up video is "why is there a difference between Zillow's Zestimate/realtors' estimated home selling price, and assessed property value?" I see one comment below talking about freezing assessed prices for seniors, but why doesn't the estimate reset when a house is sold? Why doesn't it keep up with Comps in the neighborhood every year?

[@trashrabbit69]

@@RobinClower Most I've heard is that the assessors estimate is a "purely tax" purposed value, and the one that people actually pay for is the "fair market value" i.e. assessors value based on the general characteristics of the home like square footage, lot and land size, type of home (single family, condo, agricultural residence etc) and real estate agents price based on more abstract factors like say the neighborhoods desirability, average sale price for other homes nearby, certain features (stainless steel appliances! cul-de-sac! HEATED FLOORS!!) In other words: almost completely arbitrary. Like really the line between assessor and FMV is only if you've gotten your RE license. In certain jurisdictions like some communities in Pennsylvania, there IS no difference; whatever the assessor decides the home/land is worth, the RE agent or developer or whomever cannot appraise above or below too far from that value.

[@RobinClower]

@@ShonCzinner it's more extreme than I thought. I pulled the 300k out of a distant memory, I just checked and the actual assessment was $150k

[@RobinClower]

@@trashrabbit69 that's good info, and I'm not arguing with you, but why aren't the two numbers similar and the cities just tax at a lower rate? Like if I'm taxed at 10% for a 150k estimation, 15k a year but the home is worth $450k, why don't they just assess at $450k and tax at 3.5% for 15k?

[@maxsteel32]

This unequal taxation also has the added benefit for the wealthy of convincing the poor that their problems come from the government.

[@Kibatsume1]

Only issue a lot of problems do come from the government. My area after the hurricane they won't allow people rebuild their homes because there lot size doesn't meet the new size zoning standard. Government changed the zoning laws to bring in more tax dollar bigger homes increases the value. Many individuals had investors call them less than 24 hours after being turned down for a permit to rebuild. Every time they say they're building affordable housing a luxury apartment sign goes up when they near completion. Government made a deal as long as one or two apartments is dedicated to section 8 housing they can build away. My area rental properties don't have a cap on property taxes For rentals. I have some clients who had their property taxes go up over $7,000 in 2 years on a small property. This leads to rent increase in the area . Keep in mind home values have more than tripled within a few short years. Idiots in my state voted to increase corporate tax. In case you are unaware over 80% of corporations are in fact small businesses. Unfortunately whenever a media brought up the new tax they used names like Amazon, Google etc so people voted for it thinking it only affected large businesses In reality it raised taxes across the board. Tax increases across the board actually helps big businesses small businesses already sell their products higher than corporations many manufacturers give you discounts for large purchases . Corporations can purchase more product getting it at lower prices. Unfortunately the tax increase was the final nail in the coffin for some small stores. They close down now their former business goes to the big chains .

[@greensorrel6860]

Yes they do if not the tax laws would be fair, notice how most politicians become very wealthy on a civil servant salary

[@danbobway5656]

@@shiny8733 the rich buy off conservative politicians to lower taxes on the rich, you will always see conservatives crow about how great having no state income tax is yet they pay wayyyyy more in increased property tax than stated with an income tax which overall has you paying more than just being taxed on income with a smaller property tax

[@finalcut612]

@@shiny8733unfair taxation comes from private interest lobbying, government doesn’t just do things all on its own free of political and economic influences. Taxation and government can be and should be used to make society work better for everyone, it’s private interests that fuck it up.

[@SlickSimulacrum]

This is a poor explanation of the con that is right-wing political narratives and propaganda. The very people who do this in government, are the ones selling it as the problem. Vote for them so they can do more of it, and then tell you the problem is worse and you need them even more. Right-Wing Conservatives are gullible and ignorant.

[@WeighedWilson]

In my area property assessment increases are capped at 3%. That is to protect people on fixed incomes. When a home sells the selling price resets the assessment. My uncle's sold my grandparents home of over 60 years in 2021 and Zillow says that the new owners are paying $4200 versus the $1350 that my grandparents were paying. That tells me that how recently the home was sold plays a huge part in property tax assessed. It also tells me that inflation has been much higher than 3% for decades.

[@knoway35951]

The state I’m in is capped at 5% increase in taxable value from year to year. New home owners are really getting slammed here. I’ve seen people’s taxes go from $3000 to $10000 in one year due to their new ownership.

[@luke6247]

Caps also make things unfair. New homeowners end up paying more in taxes than property owners on the beach in my area. It's not fair.

[@6thface]

Home prices have out paced inflation. This is why people under 40 can't afford to buy a home since pay has not even kept up with inflation. Let alone the insane property value increases.

[@larynOneka8080]

California is capped a 1%.

[@Kaede-Sasaki]

Umm, wouldn't it be better and fairer just to tax per square metre/foot of land? You can have an urban area multiplier (eg ×1.25) in urban areas as opposed to rural, since they get more access to amenities. Never understood this assessment system. 240 square metres is 240 square metres in 2024 and 1994.

[@FlyingOverTr0ut]

Keep up the great work, Strong Towns. My experiences every day here in LA, from how isolating the city can be, unhealthy and dangerous, and expensive makes me think that the work of urbanism is more important than ever.

[@earthsteward9]

A very good book on this topic is 'Perverse Cities' by Pamela Blais. Basically high-density areas that cost less for the municipality to provide services subsidize low-density, high-cost areas

[@ParagonFury]

It's a big part of ST's research and stuff people like Charles McMohan talk about; suburbs are basically leeching off of and being subsidized by cities. If suburbs were forced to pay their own way like cities they'd be empty ghost towns because no one other than the rich would be able to live there.

[@Joe-ij6of]

I don't think high-density areas actually cost less... they cost less PER PERSON, which is a critical distinction. A road in a downtown area might cost 3x to repair, but it serves 10x the number of people.

[@hydrolifetech7911]

​@@Joe-ij6ofOP said the same thing but in a simplified manner. Simplifying information is critical to effective communication especially when the target audience are not experts on the subject

[@shaunbava1801]

@@Joe-ij6of Even per person the environmental impact and cost to support density is actually higher. From an overall energy perspective the low density areas are problematic but make no mistake their "needs" from a public service perspective are actually far lower than high density neighborhoods pretty much anyway you slice it. In your hypothetical example the road serving 10x the number of people requires more maintenance and must be redone more often.

[@Basta11]

​@@shaunbava1801 1. 10x usage does not require 10x maintenance. There's something called economies of scale. You don't run a pizza shop with a fleet of home ovens. Dense areas have more infrastructure built to accomodate more people but they also go on in shorter distances. So in expense to benefit ratio, they are more cost effective. 2. In high density areas, the transportation behaviors are different. They take more public transport, walk more, bike more. Which means their contribution to the wear and tear on the public infrastructure is much much less than somebody who drives a 2 ton vehicle everywhere for 2 hours a day. 3. Heating and cooling are the biggest energy uses of any building. Big buildings are more energy efficient in terms of climate control than smaller homes because they have less surface area to volume ratio. This means the flux of heat per volume (and per person) is much less in big buildings. Homes in dense areas tend to be smaller as well. 4. Dense places are more efficient to deliver to. A mail man delivering to a suburb with 50 houses has to travel much longer than in 1 building with 50 units.

[@xparadoxicallyx]

I work in local government and this is a huge problem for our communities - large and small.

[@ebryan1990]

Having a difficult time getting an interview with assessors is pretty telling in and of itself.

[@sinisterdesign]

Eh--it could just be that they're afraid of saying the wrong things, or of having a target put on their backs. There's a reason we don't regard silence as evidence of guilt in this country.

[@miketackabery7521]

We always have to have an enemy

[@bradspitt3896]

​@@sinisterdesignHow could you say the wrong thing when you're just talking about your job?

[@addiecore]

Judging how political power works, if an assessor were to apply taxes more evenly my guess is they or their elected officials would be run out of office by people with enough money and free time to push to re-enact regressive taxes

[@MsGrowltiger]

All states need to enact laws whereas property is limited to how much it can increase in value so long as the owner does not sell. When someone buys a house for $200K and lives in it, even if it is worth $500K, increasing the tax liability on the owner is, in effect, driving him/her out of his/her house. If s/he could afford a $500K house, s/he would have bought one! Something has to be done. Half of our RE tax goes to pay for public schools. What do we get for that? Uneducated kids. A bunch of paper pushers making more money than actual teachers. Another welfare program as schools (in my city) provide breakfast, lunch, snack and maybe dinner to at risk students. If welfare is NOT addressing hunger, maybe we should address our elected officials and maybe they can take some of the money they are sending to Ukraine and use it to feed our kids.

[@addiecore]

@@MsGrowltiger this is already a thing in Texas. The where we have a progressive tax liability that slowly increases over time as a property's value goes up. If a owner were to sell the their house, the next owner would pay property taxes at the current value of the home. But I think even this is against the point the video is trying to make since by progressively increasing property taxes, you're still regressively taxing poor young people entering housing markets or older poor people transitioning from renting who after a life time of saving can only just start a mortgage. Housing should be decommodized by increasing housing supply by competing with the private market using good quality government subsidized housing that isn't just for poor people. They should be built with mixed income owners or tenants in mind. More supply decreases demand lowering property taxes by spreading the tax burden among more tax payers that aren't paying landlords to just suck up their money as passive income to buy other property, luxury goods and to live off of.

[@jasonjack7349]

"reverse Robin Hood" or in other words " business as usual." Giving money from the poor to the rich is how a class system functions

[@Bmike5117]

The top 10 percent of earners paid 74 percent of all income taxes and the top 25 percent paid 89 percent.

[@denelson83]

It is how _capitalism_ functions.

[@Bmike5117]

@@denelson83 Bottom 40% of people pay negative tax rates they are net receivers of tax dollars. What capitalism does is change everyone from average lifespan of 45 to 80, create the wealth and infrastructure to bring education to billions of people, and put the entirety of collected human knowledge in the pocket of anyone for 25$ a month. What socialism does is starve/purge 100 million people to death to try to compete with the efficiency of capitalism and to stomp out the rampant government corruption that socialism incentivizes.... and still result in a failed state. Good luck with that.

[@someonenotnoone]

That's the great thing about videos like this - you see how poorer people lose what money they do have, and thus can understand why they're not paying much in income taxes.

[@Tehjakeman2009]

@@Bmike5117 Top 10 percent earners also spend a vastly lower percentage of their income on necessary goods like food basic shelter.

[@DsVs]

The last thing we need is to make it easier to own excessively large homes imo. Esp with the lack of inventory for reasonably sized homes.

[@scottysgarage4393]

It's none of your concern what someone else owns.

[@greensorrel6860]

​@@scottysgarage4393it is a.concern when large corporations are buying up starter homes and charging excessive rents

[@Georgggg]

The only inventory that cannot be fixed is land. It doesn't matter if home on land is small or big. Its even better when there is big multifamily house, instead of small on same plot of land.

[@wednesdayschild3627]

​@@scottysgarage4393it is if we are paying higher taxes and they are not. That is what is happening. The city people pay the extra costs of servicing the mcmansion neighborhood. If they want to live there, then pay more taxes for infrastructure.

[@iordserghei]

I just had this happen to me, i bought my property for $120,000 in 2021, tore up the whole house and somehow now its worth $170,000 , visited a fiscal office and got an assessor to come out and re-asses the property and totally agree with me, waiting for a new price assessment as of today

[@dannyyoung9789]

this is literally happening to me. The tax assessor valued my property at fully twice the value that the real estate agent says we'll get for it. We literally have to sell my house that my family has been in for six generations now because of this.

[@afreaknamedallie1707]

I hope you can appeal it!

[@Matt-zp1jn]

Why not just do some property value “improvements” aesthetics wise in the front yard, back yard, interior, paint radical colours inside or tear up room renovations and leave them in disarray, and get a NEW assessment for much lower?? Remodel the interior to awkward room sizes, bad layout etc??

[@109Rage]

You can try to appeal the assessment with your county. A family member had a half-built home due to running out of money in the middle of its construction, and the county appraisal district was trying to value it at full price, because all they had were pictures of a finished-looking home from the outside. So they appealed, took some photos of the state of the property, which didn't even have any walls inside or working utilities yet, and pointed out how it'd be impossible to sell at the value they were taxing it at.

[@imarchello]

@@Matt-zp1jn with what money?

[@triforcelink]

@@Matt-zp1jnthat will be expensive as hell

[@stevearmstrong4561]

Eliminate Property Tax! This is the only fix!

[@marcinsobczak2485]

Property tax is the most scary thing about USA, in Ireland i pay 300 euro tax and 500 euro insurance for the whole year for bungalow worth 320000 euros. Period.

[@KM-zu9we]

I’m glad he brought up Illinois. I appealed my taxes twice. Once with an appraiser and attorney and all of the arguments were dismissed. So the next year I did even more research and presented more evidence. All dismissed again. It appears the rules on how homes are appraised are unknown and change. Every home I have ever owned / sold / bought - there’s a pretty standard of price per sq foot of living area. When I compared mine to other homes in the area, their price per sq foot living area was under $100 and mine was over $400.

[@dannydaw59]

A fancy well built new home will get a higher $ per square foot than a dumpy run down house next door to it.

[@mtzzero]

Generally in Illinois the magic number is the median AV/sqft of properties with similar age, sqft, and within 1 mile of the appealed property

[@KM-zu9we]

@@mtzzero there are 0 comparables because of this being a custom build. For financing, the bank appraisers had to go out of county, as did the one for my appeal hearing. I also have 4 wind turbines within 1/4 of a mile and can’t find that really anywhere else.

[@JoshKablack]

I will never understand how an open market sale of a property doesn't automatically reset the assessed value to the sale price in any jurisdiction.

[@sandypandy485]

Probably because people would "sell" their homes to another family member for little money and abuse the system.

[@mikerooney7600]

In California it does, but unfortunately Prop 13 has caused a host of other problems. There needs to be a sunset provision if we keep it at all.

[@abupinhus]

It actually does, when reassessment comes. They do collect sales data, improvements cost, and etc. One of the problems, that it is not very transparent and no easy way to for non expert to review. Second, is problem of perception. It is relative value of your house to rest of the other houses in town makes difference, not the real value at todays prices.

[@JoshKablack]

@@abupinhus nope. My State uses a base year system. My assessment was fixed before I bought my house and neither my offering price nor the value I used to refinance have in any way affected that assessment.

[@f430ferrari5]

@@mikerooney7600 it only causes a host of other problems from your own viewpoint. There are many benefits from it and it’s not the rich who benefit. These are elderly folks just looking to retire on SS. The greed always comes from the government and it’s workers. Outrageous salaries and pensions. System is rigged to rob from the hard workers and give to the lazy.

[@Suicidekings_]

The system isnt broken. Its working exactly as intended.

[@14sasst]

Yes. That is the sad part. Also why rich people prefer a property tax system over income tax system. Hello Texas.

[@chrisa6965]

Exactly. Thank you. Government steals from people. That is their primary function. People keep voting "yes" for more local services and more funding, then actually feel cheated when government steals it in a way they don't like. That's like hiring a burglar to steal from someone else's house, then shocked when the burglar does the same thing to you later and claim the burglar robbed you worse. Unreal.

[@Ziaoe]

So true. We are governed by immature, irresponsible sociopaths. Intelligent people need to call them out for what they are.

[@knoway35951]

I’ve know assessors that have had to leave public meetings with armed guards. It can get wild when tax laws change or when the current laws are really putting the screws to property owners. Legislators really need to start stepping up to improve how property taxation is done to begin with.

[@victortaveira8271]

But it’s plausible to happen such steep growth in property taxes even with “fearer” law . It’s market condition and it’s good that it’s happening, otherwise we would be in post Japan bubble burst. I prefer the burden cost of you to your city or the option to not pay property taxes, but transfer ownership taxes( pay everything when you’re selling your house)

[@gregorynuttall]

I was just dabbling in the property tax project for my county, and I've got to admit, it's still pretty challenging for me to understand exactly what I'm looking at. It might be helpful to be directed to some examples of people going through their own area so that I can grasp my own situation. Thanks for this. I appreciate everyone doing all this work to help create a better system.

[@gregorynuttall]

We purchased our home for $300k and just found out that it was assessed at $340k. So I am definitely hoping to understand more here.

[@9dipstick6]

Why aren't these kinds of video more popular? These are real issues we need to address!

[@josephminicozzi3830]

We are working hard to add more cats and puppies. LOL. Kidding aside, Strong Towns is the epicenter of straight sourcing civic information!

[@Georgggg]

No mercy for boomers with $1M homes who cries about taxes.

[@MzShonuff123]

This happened to us in Chicago (in a Black neighborhood) while they give Lincoln Park those tax breaks. My condo board sued and won, bringing our taxes back down but we had the money in assessments to do that; I’m not sure single family homeowners could do that

[@humanyoda]

They paid taxes in the amount of 40% to 60% of their homes' values?! If that's accurate, then it's a racket.

[@birdrocket]

Their homes were assessed as 40 to 60% of the value, they weren’t getting taxed 60% a year lol

[@oneofus6924]

this goes hand in hand with the other strong town statistics showing how all suburban areas are insanely subsidized by the higher density city centers. these large homes are not only not paying high enough taxes per their assessment, but also not paying enough as a whole compared to the insane amount of infrastructure it takes to keep those neighborhoods alive

[@matejovich]

Don't paint all towns with the same brush. My city is broken up by townships and cities within the big city, like most places. All taxes for my house are for my county which isn't a part of the city county.

[@jamesphillips2285]

@@matejovich So you never use big city services while only paying your local county?

[@Somberdemure]

Taxation is extortion.🤡

[@catandfoxworldbuilding]

I looked at the site for my county, and houses in the lowest percentile are taxed at double the rate of the highest three percentiles. The difference in the two is over a million dollars in value

[@tombradydid9114]

Property tax needs to be abolished, its authoritarian.

[@rockystaatz521]

It’s actually the time when you can actually be taxed out of your home, even if it’s paid off

[@SSGoatanks]

Keeping home supplies low and pricing out current homeowners forcing them to rent or become homeless; what has America become?

[@chrisbaker2669]

We should eliminate property taxes especially for primary residents because it is a much bigger burden on the poor than the wealthy.

[@LRH143]

Thanks for bringing this information to the public. I wish someone would do the same research on homeowner’s insurance premiums. It’s causing people to be forced to sell their homes or go into foreclosure.

[@6thface]

Insurance premiums are a function of risk assessment vs replacement costs, not tax value assessment. Insurance companies have whole departments of mathematicians that do nothing but calculate these numbers. Property taxes would be a lot less regressive if insurance actuarial methods were used to determine property tax rates.

[@evan12697]

Property tax is absolute theft in the worst degree. You dont even own your home anymore, you’re just paying rent to a landlord that will throw you in a cage for being overdue.

[@vclxrr]

Yep. Taxes are straight up theft and bullying.

[@lw1343]

It could be fixed but people are comfortable with it. Back in "old days" a guy could be absolutely penniless but always owned his plot and shack.

[@VitalVampyr]

@@lw1343 Back in "old days" the government didn't pave (or at least level) roads going out to the penniless guy's plot or subsidize the electric and telecom companies running wires out to it.

[@williamkneen1949]

2% on 200k=4k same schools, same police, and same city amenities 1.8% on 1000k=18k Super regressive!!! This seems super reasonable, not the extreme paragon of injustice that they are portraying it to be.

[@williamkneen1949]

Everybody should just pay for what they use!!

[@lolnyanterts]

@@williamkneen1949 not at all

[@cognician_]

Such fascinating and impactful research. Had a great chat with Lanier and the Urban3 team at the Strong Towns gathering when they presented this project. Love what they're doing.

[@peteraleksandrovich5923]

The system IS working...exactly as designed.

[@Dzztzt]

Then it's our turn to destroy it

[@rommelangus]

@@Dzztztsign me up.

[@andresmolina4879]

What’s the point of buying a house if you have to pay a tax on your property JUST to PREVENT from losing your supposed bought home?

[@Madbird95]

The biggest issue is that property tax can force people off of property that they own.

[@saltinodavito2135]

The biggest issue is that the rich are parasites

[@michaellocklear640]

Property tax is theft! We shouldn't have to pay for something we have already paid for, PERIOD. If the government wants to tax spending then have at it, we can add that into decision making when making a purchase. But making someone pay a speculative amount without having any say in the cost, and then taking their home if they don't pay it is BLACKMAIL. Plain and simply IMMORAL.

[@AQuietNight]

I asked the clerk to explain a value on my tax bill and she proceeded to calculate it. She went through a variety of gyrations and finally figured it out. Showed me how "simple" it all was.

[@RickysPlums]

There’s a simple solution here. Abolish property taxes. Replace with a local sales tax. Everyone wins… except the local governments, which will have to learn how to do more with less $… which is actually a win for the property owners

[@NicholasSeamans]

I live in Texas and I have heard a couple of wealthy people say they "know a guy" for taxes.

[@bradspitt3896]

This is one of those things where it's not necessarily that there's something fishy going on but that you can afford to have a tax guy find all the legal tax avoidance you can. Kind of like being able to hire an attorney instead of a tired burned out court appointed one.

[@NicholasSeamans]

@@bradspitt3896 That is what I meant.

[@Iog]

Why is property tax even a thing? It goes against everything that our founding fathers fought for in separation from the British. A land of freedom. How far we fallen...

[@Somebodyherefornow]

taxes are important in theiry though

[@Somebodyherefornow]

i dont mean property tax* property tax is just important in this system*

[@sambo669]

It was about taxation it was about unrepresented taxation

[@fsteddy6576]

Great video. We really need groups identifying this unfair and arguably illegal behavior. There should be a class action lawsuit against the state.

[@gppizza8979]

there is no such thing as "someone paying their fair share".

[@darkrebel123]

I just got my tax assessment. It shows a 269% increase since 2019. This means an extra $400/month that I pay in taxes more than I did in 2020, which is 10% of my total income. It's insane

[@evancombs5159]

Property taxes is nothing but theft in the literal sense. The only answer to property taxes is elimination of the tax. As long as property taxes exist you can never truly ever own a house. You at best are just a renter who bought a license to live at said house, but the actual owner is the government.

[@oye123321]

We need to just get rid of property taxes. I think they do more harm than good. A municipality income tax would probably do much better, especially for those on fixed incomes. Like there's basically no way to plan for your retirement if one day your house could be worth double or triple what it originally was and not your taxes go up by that same amount. Also, doing any renovations or upgrades to your home now means you owe the govt more money? Sounds like a scam

[@evan12697]

If it looks like a scam, and it sounds like a scam…

[@sachadee.6104]

YES, yes, yes. This is what I've been thinking from day 1 I came to this country.

[@dannydaw59]

There's a law in MI that says taxable value can't go up faster than inflation. That helps seniors.

[@oye123321]

@@dannydaw59 It's a bandaid to a gaping wound. Fixed Income is exactly that, fixed, so inflation like what we saw in '21-'22 could still cause them to be unable to afford a house they paid off years ago under that law. Property taxes are just a very outdated concept.

[@dannydaw59]

@oye123321 ss is tied to the consumer price index so ss benefits will keep up with inflation. If the dude in the video gets ss then he got a boost to his check.

[@inelouw]

The issue here as far as I can tell is that almost none of these properties are actually over-assessed. Over-assessment is much easier to appeal, especially in neighbourhoods with lots of sales, and for people with high amounts of income, education, spare time, or connections. But if a property is already under-assessed, it's almost impossible to prove that your property should be under-assessed MORE to keep in line with your neighbours or other neighbourhoods. An alternative way, in my opinion, is not only to re-assess all properties to be more in line with market values, at the same rate of under-assessment, but also to implement a progressive tax scale. If you just raise the assessment for high value properties, those people will appeal and appeal until they get the assessment THEY think is fair, instead of an actually fair system. However, if you adjust the property tax brackets, you can still assess the lower value properties fairly, while at the same time giving them a much needed tax pressure break, and charge a higher amount of taxes for high value properties without giving them as many opportunities to appeal. Appeal is good, but not if it gives unfair advantages to only a select few.

[@ulrichspencer]

The problem is this makes it even more profitable to hold onto vacant land or parking lots as a speculative investment. What we really want is a land value tax + a fairer appraisal system so that we don't just get a bunch of land speculators holding onto valuable land, paying pennies in property tax, and accruing a lot of appreciation that they can cash out on later. With a revenue neutral shift to land value taxes, we encourage people to develop vacant or underutilized land into new housing, which will improve overall affordability and cool the upwards speculative pressure on land prices. The revenue-neutral shift would also generally reduce taxes for most average households, with vacant lot and parking lot owners bearing the brunt of new taxation.

[@inelouw]

@@ulrichspencer That's a good point. I come from a country (the Netherlands) where vacant plots are almost as expensive as plots with buildings on them, so the property taxes on both are roughly the same.

[@randomlinuxuser]

Strong Towns themselves actually advocate for a Land Value Tax instead of a Property Tax, as Property Value is subjective but Land Value is Objective (based on amount of land owned and what it's used for). If we're going to just redo all the assessments, might as well throw out the whole bad code and replace it.

[@josephfisher426]

@@randomlinuxuser A land value tax doesn't directly address the issue raised here, though... you could be rich and live in a hovel and barely be taxed at all!

[@dannydaw59]

Are you talking about milage rates?

[@pissedoffpennsylvanian]

Remember this why would any wealthy investor want these laws to change when it completely benefits them in the end and they literally can get the best deals on land/homes sometimes even for free or steal it out from underneath you? Sadly the governments and investors only care about the profitability in the end.

[@martinlopez886]

How come this is allowed to happen! That is robbery at its best I don’t want to pay taxes i can bearly afford groceries!

[@ave14401]

I once worked for a real estate developer and can tell you first hand there is loads of intentional secrecy and obfuscation that goes on in the real estate industry to prevent tax assessors from producing a true estimate of the “value” of some of the most expensive buildings in the city

[@munequa81]

Can you share some examples?

[@peterekela6407]

Spill the beans bro

[@geisaune793]

This was a really good video. Can't wait for the video on the Land Value Tax!

[@justincrasi4638]

we need to use a land based tax system. the individual per house system doesn't make any sense.

[@jesusisdead]

Nah we just need to get rid of most of property taxes and people need to pay to send their kids to school. That's half of my taxes right there. Most of it is just theft beyond schools. I don't receive services outside of using roads. Ypu get nothing for your money

[@evancombs5159]

No, we should not have any kind of property taxes. Taxes should only be assessed when there is a transfer of wealth. Once something is in your possession it should not be taxed again.

[@alvisjenkins1305]

What everyone is not realizing is, that property taxes are the result of exercising a taxable privilege. Property taxes are taxed services afforded by county government government. Many property owners do not receive benefit from many taxed services. Going to county hearings you end of finding nothing will be done to stop taxing property owners for benefits not received. What anyone can do to end property taxes is to forfeit county taxed services. This is done by selling your property privately, not using a realtor, sell to a trusted buyer and then have buyer to turn around and sell back to original owner of which new owner will not record his property into the public record, doing so eliminates the assessor and tax collector having a name and address to send a tax bill to. Just remember though, you give up all county taxed services.

[@Zedprice]

Wow, it's rare at this point for Strong Towns to teach me something they haven't already taught me. Super interesting!

[@Pete.across.the.street]

Being on a fixed income or not should have no bearing on your tax rate.

[@deisum]

I'm a little disappointed you didn't mention land value tax as a potential option to reduce this discrepancy.

[@culturedboor]

Nobody sets out to be the most hated person in town, but if you’re going to be hated, it might as well be by the people who don’t have the power and influence to make your existence totally miserable, as opposed to those who do.

[@nahguacm]

Land Value Tax would solve this

[@eliottwiener6533]

Doesn't a land value tax still involve an assessment process to determine the site premium?

[@chrispychip6569]

@@eliottwiener6533you are correct but the Georgists are a bit of a religious cult who think lvt will solve all of the worlds problems

[@ulrichspencer]

@@eliottwiener6533 Land value isn't as subjective, since you're not taxing the property atop the land. I should imagine it would be easier to construct a fair statistical model of land values in a city based on factors like proximity to services, infrastructure, etc. With property values, you have to appraise the value of a lot more intangibles like the condition of the property (which truly needs an inspector to make sure there aren't serious problems lurking beneath the surface), etc. I would still expect that it's not strictly easy to build a good land value appraisal system -- and you would still have to contend with monied interests wanting an easy-to-manipulate appraisal system -- but an appraisal system based more on hard statistics and tangible quantities I should expect would be a little less ripe for abuse.

[@Onyx3030]

There still might be regressive appraisals if high value land is under assessed Edit: but yes I agree that land value tax is 100% a huge fix for cities

[@FinneasJedidiah]

It wouldn't really though, because then the wealthy would be taxed even less if their house wasn't taken into consideration

[@steverobertson6393]

I always agree with the idea: Take it from Rich people. It's always worked without fail and if we really do it well, we get full on Communism, which is the ultimate justice. Living fairness. It works everytime. At least historically it has.

[@carly09et]

First comment: the wealthy can(and will) dispute an assessment, the poor don't - this is 90% of the problem.

[@theliefilter6412]

I got so many stories of injustice with the tax system on my properties. I live in one of the worst counties in the country crook county, Illinois.

[@randallthomas5207]

Locally, our property tax is based, on square footage under roof, and the number of ridges and valleys. A simple ranch with a single ridge line, pays a lower rate than a house with three ridges, and four valleys, which pays more per square foot. The land value is the only disparity, because if you have five acres, and a cow, your land can be taxed as agricultural land, where a 4.9 acre parcel with horses pays as residential.

[@greensorrel6860]

That's crazy but also scary as tax laws can change and you may find yourself.on the losing end

[@ybokors8524]

during this video i also realized that these taxes incentives the investment in luxury housing, as such the injustice compounds even more.

[@singingway]

I can already hear the opposition to this, "oh but we have to ATTRACT wealthy people and wealthy business owners, by giving them every incentive, discount, and tax break, or they will (dum-dum-dahhh) go elsewhere!"

[@teaganrasmussen4012]

You have to have lived in one of these places I think to fully get it. There are 0 prop taxes in louisiana and the state tax is 10-11%? It’s such an extreme system and honestly made the place unlivable.

[@RDKirbyN]

I remember attending the HOA meeting for the giant building in in, and they talked about the appealing for lower tax rate. They have the money to do it, and it's a lot of old people in this building with established connections. They're very successful at it.

[@EthanKnight]

Not once do they bother to mention the "tax paid per household," which would destroy their whole argument. The "rich houses" might pay 10x or 100x the taxes of the "poor houses". And yet they still call it a regressive tax on the poor.

[@PresAlexWhit]

Or eliminate property tax and replace it with land value tax

[@ReedmanFL]

Property taxes on residential property don't pay for the burden on police, fire, schools, etc. It is the BUSINESS owner who is paying far more than the cost/value of the services they receive.

[@empressmarowynn]

A few years after I bought my house, in a low income neighborhood, the city increased property taxes by a significant amount. When I went to appeal they had all this supposed documentation about improvements that had been made to my house but none of them were true. I was very confused because my house hadn't been updated in literal decades. Even with photographic evidence that those improvements hadn't been done they still denied my appeal. Luckily I found out about the homestead act which did decrease it some but even with that I'm currently paying about $2,000 more than I did 7 years ago. My pay hasn't increased in that time so I'm having to stretch my budget further and further.

[@teg5135]

Government is the problem. We are supposed to be able to own our property but we pay taxes on our property….ridiculous. Do we own it or does the government? And there is too much waste and abuse in government…I don’t trust them to spend my hard earned money.

[@carlbernard4197]

And starts the downward spiral that eventually stalls the whole economy. Our country is not designed to be able to run like this. That is why things are hitting the shitter really fast

[@Ace-bi1lu]

From Illinois: There’s a beautiful house 0.5 miles away on my street that’s 2.2x larger and 28 years newer that only pays 50% more per year and that’s after winning my tax appeal twice in 4 years. Everything is inconsistent.

[@Amir-jn5mo]

Here in Canada I have heard that the condo apartments foot a much higher tax bill than single family houses. Would like to know more stats on that. They love to make new construction and immigrant residents pay for all the old residents living in their big houses and still blame new construction and high rises for their neighbourhood problems.

[@SarahSmith-vt3oc]

what I found by experience: the tax assessors make their process NOT TRANSPARENT and they make it SO COMPLICATED to protest, that the property owner GIVES UP. There is no rhyme or reason to how they assess properties - it's actually criminal, like nearly ALL other Gov't processes - long ago it has been said - you DON'T OWN your house, you RENT IT from the locality. The landlords raise the rent willy nilly.

[@thunn35]

I should not have to pay taxes on my home that I own free and clear. Property tax is theft

[@caseyjones5145]

The system is working exactly how it was designed to

[@slash196]

Seems bizarre that the property tax wouldn't just be based on the last price the home sold at. If prices have actually fallen, the seller will be the one eating the loss.

[@RavenMyBoat]

As long as the primary revenue generating system for municipalities is a property tax system, making more accurate assessments would absolutely help prevent the rich from cheating taxes so much. The real solution though is to only tax the land, and not the structures built upon, thus encouraging more efficient land use, and incentivizing government action to zone for more effective use. Henry George had it right.

[@markbernier8434]

Exactly, the entire concept is wrong. Leave the wealthy out of it for a moment, collecting taxes based on nominal values of very illiquid assets means that you have created a very regressive tax policy that tends to push people at the margins into substandard housing or homelessness.

[@matthewgladback8905]

I have a feeling that disregarding the value of the land is a big part of the problem here. Assessors seem to be laser-focused on the physical aspects of the property, whereas in reality a large part of the value of a property is the context in which that property exists, which a land value attempts to measure. Having even a split-rate tax system, which includes a separate tax on land value, would force the municipality to consider this, at least.

[@knoway35951]

The government does not properly fund assessing departments. The technology that is available to them is typically outdated, the amount of staff is never enough, and the laws that are created make the job more difficult year to year bc no legislators will simplifying that tax codes bc they don’t understand the work load they are creating.

[@mtzzero]

In cook county which has a split rate. Assessor Kaegi just tacks on value increases due to location onto the improvement value instead of the land value

[@GrayWolf448]

government power draws in corrupt people, corrupt people prey on the weak (poor/those with a small network) and avoid the strong (wealthy/networked people). Corrupt people will always form a concentration is seats of power eventually, and unless you have a monarchy, you wont keep them out. Large part of why the founders and libertarians go on about small government, low regulations, and taxes all the time.

[@VictorSneller]

A riveting video on property tax assessors. Only ST could do it!😊

[@Madbird95]

I’m not sure the focus needs to be on regressivity, but rather on the nature of property taxes in general. Anytime a property tax drives someone out of their home, is an immense injustice. The notion that the government can force you out of a home because they assessed the value of a home at a price based on the ballooning assessments elsewhere is horrifying. Furthermore, they’re incentivized to assess your property as worth more, as that gives the city or county more money. Why should you be taxed on something not generating income? Why should you be forced to sell your home because it’s hypothetically worth x amount of dollars? The bottom line is that regardless of whether or not homes are being fairly assessed, people are still going to be losing their homes because of increasing property taxes. The 10% difference isn’t going to address the root cause, which is that houses are being overvalued by assessors, and that property taxes continue to increase.

[@nathang4682]

I am a big fan of Strong Towns, but as a former appraiser for a county in Virginia, there are a few problems with this video, possibly because of the lack of being able to talk to appraisers. Elderly people with fixed incomes were mentioned. Many localities, including Asheville, have relief programs for the elderly and disabled. Where I worked, if you were 65 and had under a certain (fairly significant) amount of assets or income, your tax assessment can be “frozen,” where it won’t increase year by year with the market. This is a big help for this type of person, and Asheville seems to have a program that works differently but has a similar effect. There are clearly problems with the assessments in these specific localities, but I do not think this is a country wide systemic issue with the way that assessors are supposed to value property. Per the International Association of Assessing Officers, localities should be using the measure of Price Related Differential in order to make sure that low valued and high valued properties are being increased at the correct proportion. There is a standard for what range is considered acceptable, and I highly doubt they met this standard here. In Virginia, the state monitors these numbers, and it sounds like the state of NC needs to look at their localities and make sure they are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

[@strongtowns]

Glad you're here! Dr. Berry's nationwide study argues that this is a nationwide, systemic issue. Some areas are certainly better than others. We didn't have time to get into this in the video, but in NC, the "punishment" for larger counties is that they need to reassess within 3 years. The standard is already 4 years. For smaller counties, it is essentially a verbal warning. Dr. Berry touched on the Illinois side of accountability as well. The numbers themselves also can be cherrypicked, removing outliers before being sent to state agencies. The level of accountability for data reporting integrity is very low. Good to hear Virginia is doing well! I'll poke around VA in the property tax project.

[@nathang4682]

Where I worked, the county has their own assessing dept and we did annual reassessments, which goes a long way to keeping up with accurate data. A lot of localities contract out their assessing to private companies, and only reassess every 3+ years, which causes a lot of problems

[@AerysBat]

Freezing assessments for wealthy property owners is super unfair. California's Prop 13 gives endless examples of people with $7M mansions paying only .1% in annual property taxes. Instead, governments should allow people to defer payment increases until they sell or transfer. If your property taxes go up, you can still pay the old amount, simply make up for the difference later on.

[@nathang4682]

@@AerysBat the freezes aren't for the wealthy, they are for low income elderly people Edit: you keep editing your comment and the CA comment wasn't there before, yes that is super messed up there but that is not the same type of freeze I'm referring to

[@Stephenmcabrera]

"if you were under a certain (fairly significant) amount" isn't that not low income? Or do you just mean significant for a poor person?

[@leonadams1053]

Two ‘landowners’ in the same town decide to improve their land. Owner1 buys a manufactured home from an out of state manufacturer and only uses local contractors for final utility hook up. Value at end of improvements is $100,000. Owner2 decides to build a large home using only local contractors and as much locally sourced materials as possible. Value at end of improvements is $1,000,000. Assume a 1% property tax. Owner 1 pays $1,000/yr in property taxes. Owner2 pays $10,000/yr in property taxes. Fair?

[@patrickrolan8680]

Great idea floating around is taxing land instead of the supposed value of any given property. It is completely objective (vs. a home's value is mostly subjective), and doesn't punish folks who improve their property with additions, ADUs, etc.

[@davidrogers8030]

Georgism ?

[@drewdorkhead]

That'd likely screw over smaller municipalities with downtowns, where property taxes from these areas can make up a substantial % of all tax income

[@tHebUm18]

That would greatly punish people with a decent plot of land and a humble house while benefitting people living in mansions on similar plot of land. Sounds like the property tax equivalent of a flat tax which is also super regressive (favors rich people). Also wouldn't work at all at the extremes: taxing farmers to the extreme while basically letting condos pay no property taxes. Along that same line of reasoning: it completely misses that a plot of land in downtown has a lot of value while the same size plot of land in the middle of nowhere does not. So an inner-city mansion would have a tiny fraction the property taxes of middle class suburban homes. Raising property taxes on people who add more value to their property is like raising income taxes on people who make more money--not punishment, completely reasonable.

[@klosnj11]

@@tHebUm18 it is not the same as raising taxes on people with higher income. If you have more income, you have more money with which to pay. If the local housing market fluctuates upwards and your home value skyrockets, you owe more but have no additional money to pay with, eventually forcing you to sell your property or lose it. And who buys it up when you cant afford it? The rich. Taxing the "value" of the building is just one more way that the poor are forced by the government to cough up wealth without any say in the matter.

[@tHebUm18]

@@klosnj11 Except the original commenter's argument wasn't around the content of the video where it goes up based on the housing market being crazy. He specifically mentioned additions/ADUs. If you have $40,000 to invest in a meaningful addition to your home or a 2nd place for people to live on the property (often to rent and make money), it is absolutely reasonable for your property taxes to increase. I'm sure if Strong Towns weighed in, they would say this is a terrible idea as well--because, again, it's literally the property tax equivalent of a flat tax which is super regressive. It would be infinitely worst for poor people than the current system in the same way a flat tax would be. Their example had a 10% disconnect between average and poor properties--under only looking at the size of the plot of land, it'd probably be 50%+ because a normal house to opulent mansion the land needed scales linearly, not exponentially. The value of having the best lot placement on a river/lake/mountain, a pool, the finest everything money can buy, solar on on the roof so you don't pay a dime for electricity, etc., etc. You could get all that on a plot of land less than 4 times a $80k a house in a poor area and then they'd only pay 4x the property taxes on a home worth more than 20x the value. That proposal would even more lopsidedly benefit rich people--plain and simple.

[@jed7644]

Not mentioned, many states allow some sort of exemption for owner/occupants. In my state it’s a homesteader’s exemption. Our basic property tax rate is 2% of assessed, & resident homeowner’s get a 1% exemption. When renters stand up & say “but, but, but” they’ll almost surely be told that their landlords pay 1% & tenants pay 1% - just like owner/occupants, so that’s fair, right? … & where do landlords get the money for their 1%, & the other percent, or either percent? In every state that taxes in this manner, tenants pay 2% & then get told to sit down & shut up at local council meetings.

[@jordanmcgrory2171]

I think you could step even further back from this and argue that the whole idea of a property value tax is inherently regressive. The wealthier a person gets, the less of that wealth is tied up in their home(s). For most people in middle and down, your home is 80 or 90%+ of their total wealth. For the richest people their home is only one asset amongst many and represents a smaller proportion of total wealth the richer they are. This means that a property tax system will always be regressive even when accurately administered correctly because it includes more of your total money in the calculation the poorer you are. Also as an aside: we know the US has massive education funding gaps between communities because of the property tax system. If such massive gaps occur even though rich communities underpay, imagine how bad it would be if assessments were accurate.

[@kanucks9]

Poor people don't own property, they rent.

[@negativenein3803]

Scrap Property tax and do land value tax, more land higher taxes keep it simple.

[@Triquetra15]

I don’t know how it works in other states, but in PA, the funding gap is a myth. Disparities is local tax collection are offset by state and federal sources. For example, in Harrisburg, PA, a lower income school district, the 2022-23 school year budget reflects 60 million from local property tax, 100 million from the state, and 60 million from the federal government. Camp Hill, PA school district, a wealthier, but smaller community, received 20 million from local sources, 5 million from state sources, and 767,000 from federal sources(this was the 21-22 budget). So 73% of Harrisburg’s budget was from state and federal sources while only about 23% of Camp Hill’s was. School funding per student does vary from district to district, but the divide seems to be much more urban-rural which probably reflects lower cost of living(with urban and suburban school districts having higher funding, and rural school districts having lower funding).

[@Triquetra15]

I did some more research, and PA does rank as one of the worst states in terms of reliance on local funding, so most other states are better. Some people claim that many of PA’s schools are underfunded, but this is supported by the belief that school districts with higher poverty rates need a greater amount of funding per student than other schools. While this may be true, it doesn’t show a funding gap, it shows that poverty is expensive. Other sources claim that Pennsylvanias schools are some of the best funded in the nation, saying that PA ranks 8th in the nation for per student funding.

[@onehorsetoomany8006]

@@negativenein3803 That might lessen the problem, but it doesn't eliminate it. The basic problem is that property of just about any kind is difficult to put an accurate value on. Is my lot, part of which floods seasonally, worth less than the lot next door that doesn't flood? If so, how much less? How often would it have to flood to reduce value, and by how much? Accurate assessment is one of the fundamental problems with every type of wealth tax. I'm opposed to wealth taxes (property tax is just a type of wealth tax) of every type because they are fundamentally bad for the economy. If you have to worry about someone, including the government, taking property you fully paid for, it discourages investment. It's even worse when you need that property on which to live. As highlighted in the video, when income does not keep up with property values, people with the fewest options can lose the homes they've lived in for decades. Tax income, sales, fuel, hotel rooms, alcohol, and imports/exports all you want; no one needs those to live. But taxing property/wealth is a bad idea and impossible to do fairly.

[@prawnstar9213]

No.. in Chicago property taxes are notoriously terrible. But with the value of homes increasing to criminal levels.. people that have been in their homes for 30 years plus are being forced out.. one house in Chicago was valued at $335000 in 2022 but in 2023 it’s now valued at $855000.. property taxes now cost that grandmother $1200 a month which she can’t afford. She hoped to leave the home for her kids but now that is shot. She can’t sell her home in this environment because no one is buying so she is stuck.. she can’t afford the taxes.. absolutely cannot. This country is literally drowning and dying.. our population is in debt.. plain debt.

[@cmdrobijadah7329]

It's really funny how people think they own their homes and property. You never OWN your property , all you do is lease it from the county. Private property does not exist in the US.

[@louisnall3102]

Yes, that is true, because land is leased from the government you are paying the government compensation for restricting accessibility to your land.

[@محمدالامريكي-ج9م]

I think property taxes are unjust and should be abolished. It's a tax just based on existing and not on economic activity.

[@swayne1441]

Property tax should be illigal. The fact you never truly own your home is insane. Where I live in San Antonio the expensive homes definitely pay the most. Many valuable homes and even mid priced homes have taxes higher than the mortgage.

[@enjoystraveling]

That’s the reason I got rid of my relatives house. The property tax in Texas was too high.

[@ajourneytogrowth]

I like how you explain concepts!

[@oscarmenendezguerra]

My property assessment came back 25% above what zillow estimated it. I was dumbfounded when I saw it, so I am currently protesting the estimate. Hopefully I can get it down at least a bit.

[@captainheat2314]

They want to tax you high so you have to sell it to them for cheap

[@henrymach]

Property tax is denial of property

[@evan12697]

It’s just rent, you dont “own” anything

[@_t_f_]

Awesome. Thanks for sharing. This is huge. I want to become a more involved voter and constituent in my area.. I think that this video was a good boost that I needed to start writing letters to my senators and legislators here. THANK YOU!

[@zakkruse3097]

Wouldn't all of this be solved by charging all homeowners a flat tax because we all use the same stuff and benefit the same from what the government provides?