Summations & Final vote: Britain's former colonies should stop blaming the Empire for their ills

Want to join the debate? Check out the Intelligence Squared website to hear about future live events and podcasts: www.intelligenc...
__________________________
www.intelligenc...
The debate "Britain's former colonies should stop blaming the Empire for their ills" took place at Cadogan Hall in London on 17th November 2011.
Event info:
The British Empire has a mixed legacy. On the plus side we brought railways, the rule of law and the English language, the world's lingua franca, to far-flung places. But it's also true that in the aftermath of WWII our rapid retreat from Empire was a bit too hasty: colonial administrators with little understanding of local history or culture created new countries by drawing lines on the map, ignoring the affiliations of religion, tribe or language.
So it's hardly surprising that our former colonies blame us for the subsequent wars and tensions that continue to this day in places such as Kashmir and parts of Africa. But isn't it all too easy for corrupt and unpopular leaders to use the Empire as a scapegoat for their failings? 60 years on, isn't it time for our former colonies to take responsibility for themselves? Who's right? Who's wrong? Come to the debate and decide for yourself.

[@jonathonhamilton3889]

People who never owned slaves should never apologise to people who were never slaves.

[@frankdawe5156]

As a Canadian I am tremendously proud to state that we are a part of the British Commonwealth. God Dave the Queen!

[@hypejuice1321]

dave the queen indeed

[@rawna]

Makes sense. A coloniser supporting a coloniser but as said, it's not about you.

[@zytzef]

@@hypejuice1321 Britain is the only country where anyone can grow up to be a queen. Well done Dave!

[@sircoloniser5454]

Remember what language this debate is in

[@jmlaw8888]

The same language that marvels at Romon colonization and all the advancements that brought. The language not of the people looking for a scapegoat to nullify their shame or to perform a modern day con or grift.

[@richardsevern2973]

What happened to the indigenous people of the West Indies? Are there any still there?

[@lylecosmopolite]

The indigenous peoples of the Caribbean islands were victims of infectious disease and intentional genocide.

[@char08fal]

They were either killed or enslaved. Only a few islands still have communities like St. Vincent & Grenadines and Dominica

[@human8454]

All former colonies should blame god not British

[@dannymendez5561]

From Bellbrook Ohio, USA, the US is an empire, many Americans acknowledge that, and also as a Mexican I can say that empire still affects Mexico, in India the general culture was preserved, with British additions, it was still India, still Hindu and Muslim, still with a caste system.(in Mexico the low standing of women and homophobia are direct effects of empire) In many cases such as the The colonies in North America there was such an active hunt of the indigenous people cultures and govt. that nearly the entirety of the groups condition can be blamed on England. And to speak on Australia, the whites are faring well, but what about the aborigines. As in the United States ,British practices of slavery set a path that still affects many African Americans today. And finally Germany and Japan were not colonized, their ethnic groups pitted against each other, pillaged, enslaved, government restructured. Actually. My truly last point the British demanded ridiculous reparations of Germany, when what Germany had done to Britain compare to imperialism was frankly meager

[@dannymendez5561]

+nocompunctions nothing you can understand or refute apparently.

[@dannymendez5561]

+nocompunctions i was making a case that reparations have been taken/given for much smaller slights than british imerialism. and the case that to the contrary of people saying "well America is well off" yes the descendants of the British colonists are well off yet natives and descendants of slaves and natives are in poverty and are in essence second class citizens. they are not better off and can blame the empire, but i would say that the extent of blames usefulness is knowing that your roof is leaking due to a storm, or you are poor and disenfranchised due to an empire

[@dannymendez5561]

+nocompunctions I'l let you alone to clean yourself up, you seemed to have satisfied yourself. I'm not going to get into an exchange of shitty faux research papers over a comment i made more than a year ago, go and do something more useful.

[@dannymendez5561]

+nocompunctions come back when you have the slightest bit of decorum and witty insults

[@lylecosmopolite]

"the US is an empire" Agreed. "...many Americans acknowledge that..." Only highly educated Americans who are not right wing nationalists. "...as a Mexican I can say that empire still affects Mexico..." In 1848, Mexico lost about half of its territory. I am sceptical that the American Empire, which really began only in 1945, has had a major adverse effect on Mexico. The American War on Drugs is American Puritanical Stupidity, not a form of imperialism. "...in India the general culture was preserved, with British additions, it was still India, still Hindu and Muslim, still with a caste system." British rule changed India forever, by introducing India to science, technology, the Industrial Revolution, Christianity (which has had a significant influence on Hinduism). "(in Mexico the low standing of women and homophobia are direct effects of empire)" I am sceptical that American cultural influence is the ultimate cause of what you (and I) deplore. "In many cases such as the The colonies in North America there was such an active hunt of the indigenous people cultures and govt. that nearly the entirety of the groups condition can be blamed on England." The American colonists and post-independence Americans treated the native population of North America much worse than the British ever did. During the Revolutionary War, the British had warm allies (e.g., the Iroquois). The American attitude towards the Indians was "exterminate them". "And to speak on Australia, the whites are faring well, but what about the aborigines." The condition of the Australian aborigines is abominable, and the problem appears intractable. "As in the United States ,British practices of slavery set a path that still affects many African Americans today." But the British abolished slavery a generation before the Americans did. The British taxpayer paid off the Caribbean slaveowners, which kept the peace. The former British colonies in the Caribbean are not festering messes of racial tension. American blacks of Caribbean ancestry are richer and less criminal than the descendants of southern slaves. "And finally Germany and Japan were not colonized, their ethnic groups were not pitted against each other, pillaged, enslaved, government restructured." Germany had colonies. The behaviour of the Japanese military in Asia, 1931-45, was much worse than any European colonialists.. "My truly last point the British demanded ridiculous reparations of Germany, when what Germany had done to Britain compare to imperialism was frankly meager." The harsh reparations were a French demand, not a British one. Much of these reparations were never paid.The Germans had exacted harsh reparations from the French in 1871. World War One was much harsher than any preceding war in world history. About 1 million soldiers from the British Empire lost their lives in combat or from disease. For France, 1.4M men, or about one in ten adult Frenchmen. The French perceived WWI as an attempted genocide.

[@TheAnkurp09]

Those two Indians they are probably resident of uk not indian

[@yusuf.k.m]

Ramachandra Guha stays in Bangalore,India.

[@queenelizabethiiisinhell5062]

Brits try so hard in this debate.

[@frenetic1057]

Hell does not exist

[@mushroomgods4707]

jolly good

[@lylecosmopolite]

The British Empire on average gifted the colonies with railways, telegraph, newspapers, English language schools and universities for the urban middle class, the beginnings of modern health care and public health, and so on.

[@aaryas6821]

Actually, the railways were built by Indians, using Indian taxpayer money (Indians were taxed exorbitantly for this - I know because I have family who lived during those times, and fought for the British Raj in WW2 along with millions of other Indians who did because their businesses were gone as the British essentially stole raw materials and got weavers' out of business by the thousands). The railways led to British ports, to ship Indian raw materials (weaving materials among other things, after the British smashed their thumbs) back to Britain. India was basically deindustrialized for the benefit of Britain. Every non-imperialized Asian nation has a railway. In the meantime, India coughed up $100 million+ in taxes for the British and their wars. 1 in 6 of Britain soldiers in WW2 were Indian.

[@lylecosmopolite]

Under the Raj, the typical Indian family were subsistence farmers which the colonial administration almost always left alone. 1800-1947, Indian industrialisation rose. The British built and left behind an unusually complete railway system, whose cost and density far exceeded that built in any other colony.

[@denverbritto5606]

@@aaryas6821 Indians were very poor before colonialism-average GDP per capita adjusted for purchasing power parity of $576 in India compared to $1716 in Britain in 1750. Their decline as a share of global GDP was mostly due to the advance of Industrialisation in Britain and the failure to industrialise in India. You should read up on the work of contemporary historians and economists e.g. bishnupriya Gupta, tirthankar Roy etc

[@denverbritto5606]

@@aaryas6821 also the myth of the "smashed thumbs" of the weaver's has been traced back to a misreading of the 1776 account by Dutch trader William Bolts and debunked.

[@aaryas6821]

@Guy Sky Do you personally know every soldier?

[@darkknight9537]

Before India was colonized it was among the richest countries, while at the time of independence it was poor, major population being illiterate and the infrastructure was not good either that British people say. As per the development done in colonies, it was done at quite higher prices than average of that time with Indian money from Indian taxpayers & NO it was NOT for upliftment of India, rather for efficient extraction of wealth. As British say that if they wouldn't have build railways and other things, India couldn't have built them but India was among the richest. Couldn't India have purchased those things as they are now doing? And they altered India's history before colonization such that people would believe that their ancestors were poor people who didn't knew anything and Britishers were the well wishers to do so instead of being the robbers which they actually were. It is not about "should people living today in British pay for something that their ancestors did", it is mostly about "how it was Indian money that were looted and people living today in British enjoy living in a rich country due to that while Indians today are deprived of their ancestors money". We know $45 Trillion dollars in no joke to return back & Britain won't be able to do so either but at least we don't want to see these kind of excuses on how British made India better. Peace.

[@Dunnlrs]

India was made up of a lot of kingdoms, kingdoms that slaughtered each other.

[@jmlaw8888]

Before colonization India was one of the richest countries? No it wasnt. If it was it would have been building its own Empire in Asia and North Africa. Look I get it. Shame is causing people to create myths as to why this happened but it wont work. Nobody in this country or throughout Europe makes up lies about the Romans and how little advancement they brought vs oppression. Just lies. Simple as. Peace.

[@bphoq12]

Apalling that the motion was carried.

[@Cecilia-ky3uw]

apalling that the ottomans conquered many lands and muslims overran the zoroastrians and the persians conquered afghanistan and the muslims conquered india and the chinese conquered mongolia and you get the point

[@leonodonoghueburke4276]

@@Cecilia-ky3uw No, we don't. "Oh you say we didi bad, well what about all of these completely uninvolved people we aren't talking about?"

[@Cecilia-ky3uw]

@@leonodonoghueburke4276 leon im arguing then why arent we demanding reparatiins from these most suggestions are exclusive to forcing europe to pay

[@Cecilia-ky3uw]

@@leonodonoghueburke4276 i mean genghis khan ALONE killed possibly 60 million+ people

[@Cecilia-ky3uw]

@@leonodonoghueburke4276 ill remind you thats more than stalin and hitler COMBINED