Sun Eater’s BIG “Problem”…

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[@jefftheless]

Sun Eater is a mashup of Dune, Star Wars, and New Sun, but with prose and themes that could make you think JRR Tolkien wrote it.

[@TheDyr3]

Name of the wind

[@Staylecrate]

Exactly! The flow has this way of stringing you along in a nice shaise lounge sofa, then BAM! High matter to the face. But seriously His writing builds the characters and worlds in a pretty smart way. Hadrian is a Poet Warrior and not the other way around (I *borrowed* that from Fabio on Zoolander).

[@sesshowmarumonoke]

@@TheDyr3 I don't see any similariies with Name of The Wind at all, aside from the 1st person perspective

[@TheDyr3]

@@sesshowmarumonoke The framing is exactly like Name of the Wind with a legendary figure ( now fallen) extolling a self told memoir, which may have fabrications, while stating from the outset the person he became, the things done and the calamitous end. It even has the whole childhood arc as alone adolescent in the city. I get what you mean though as a story, it just feels to me like somebody read Dune, held it in heart for years and then read name of the wind and realised how they wanted to tell their story. Nothing wrong with it, all first stories are derivative

[@dphunk87]

It's no secret Christopher is a huge dune fan and some would even call him an expert. It has similarities but is so different. That is like saying you could never have a book where the protagonist uses a sword

[@iSamwise]

Haha. Absolutely. Great thoughts.

[@Staylecrate]

Shield's, swords, and... hmm.. Ah, ships. The classic 3 S's I totally didn't make up just now. Just gotta add space or what ever environment before each. But that doesn't sound as sexy as 3 S's.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

I think Bujold would need to also be considered a very strong influence to the books as well

[@iSamwise]

That’s a good point. Shards of Honor is on the upcoming read list!

[@Johanna_reads]

Excellent video!!! ✨Of the three main books you discussed at the beginning, I've only read Dune (books 1-3), but I'm eager to start Book of the New Sun next year before starting Sun Eater. There is a fine line between an homage, conversation, or "hat tip" (the case for most series) and a highly derivative work. That doesn't mean the original is always better executed than the near copycat. I appreciate that Ruocchio wears his influences on his sleeve while doing something different. I know it's not required, but that's why I figure reading Book of the New Sun first will help me appreciate Ruocchio's approach. Did you find that was the case for you? Did that knowledge enhance your experience?

[@iSamwise]

Thanks Johanna! I think I was really surprised by how different Sun Eater was from BOTNS in terms of tone and story. Sun Eater takes a dark turn near the end of the series but not so much for the first three books. BOTNS has a world that feels dark (literally since the Sun is dying) and dirty from page one. I think philosophically Ruocchio and Wolfe have similar ideas they’re grappling with. So I don’t think readers have an inferior experience with Sun Eater if they haven’t read Wolfe, but there’s definitely a historical through line to the genre you’ll pick up on if you’ve read him first.

[@sovereignprints_217]

I've had the first book on my shelf for a little while... but this video is making me more and more excited to read it! I have no problem when a book "borrows" from another book. Dune is one of my favorite books of all time, and so if Sun Eater is anything like Dune, all the better!

[@iSamwise]

I can’t speak to legacy, but I personally enjoy Sun Eater more than Dune. Hope you can check it out.

[@Staylecrate]

The series is amazing. It relit a passion to go through the favorites in my collection. All the books have these amazing swells and huge pay off's in the plots of each book, several actually in each one that never seems to disappoint. My new favorite series. I was hooked right away. And it isn't bad guys and good guys. The protagonist and antagonist that have their own factions, rich culture and languages I guess he made up. There are epic battles everywhere, and even when the characters are conversing he has a clever way of slipping another layer of the mysteries in so smoothly. I was in tears at a few different parts of each book too. I really hope you like it as much as I did! Check out the novella's too. They do a fantastic job just fleshing out the other characters even more than in the books.

[@sovereignprints_217]

@@Staylecrate that sounds wonderful! I think I'll start it once I finish the Red Rising series. Those kind of massive epics tend to scratch a literary itch like no other books can

[@Staylecrate]

@@sovereignprints_217 awesome really hope you do. Depending your pace you might finish up when he releases the last book early next year.

[@Chance.Dillon]

As far as the memory and recollection goes with Hadrian-I feel we have to remember it’s all through hadrians perspective and so of course he thinks his memory is perfect. Recall is an imperfect thing in its nature. All great points you made man. I don’t think his homages are by any means a detriment to his work. In fact, I tend to enjoy the Easter eggs he intentionally placed throughout. And to the ones that show up on a broader scale, I believe most stories operate from a familiar framework of some sort. His just happens to be one of the most popular if not THE most popular sci fi novels ever written. And now (and he knows it) he is on top of the shoulders of giants paving the way for the next who will stand on his. Excellent video man.

[@iSamwise]

Thanks Chance! I appreciate you and the kind words a lot!

[@TheDyr3]

A new author will often use the ideas of their own favourite works and worlds to create the framework with which they explore their own integral ideas. Ruocchio has gone on record saying this is the story cooking in him througu childhood, these ideas will be incredibly derivative. The series may have benefited from another series of passes to try and re-layer a lot of worldbuilding and themtaic details to make them original. When i read the first book it reminded me a lot of an indie published book that might lack the broader scope of these criticisms before publication. Other authors merge many more concepts while Ruocchio drew from 3/4 major, popular and incredibly aligned. I'd like to see his next world/original series and would hope it more original now that he has used homage to hone his tools!

[@iSamwise]

Idk I think saying 3/4 of the book is pulled from other places is probably a generous estimate.

[@tasosalexiadis7748]

Great video. The problem with the original Empire of Silence (I haven't read the revised edition that he put out for the Diamond edition) is that the conversation is done heavy-handedly. Contrast that to the rest of the books in the Sun Eater series, which while are still in conversation with the above works is done very well.

[@iSamwise]

You know that’s definitely an interesting point. I think on the nose one way or another may depend on the specific reader and also what their background is. (For example Dune being a play of the John Carter style of SF pulp may have seemed more on the nose to current readers but less so now that Burroughs is read far less.)

[@tasosalexiadis7748]

@@iSamwise Maybe the problem was the rewording of specific sentences of the above works for the original version of EoS. CR admitted that he removed many of these cases for the revised edition. I just remember that many times I was taken of the narrative when I first read EoS. This never happened to me for the other Sun Eater books.

[@iSamwise]

@@tasosalexiadis7748 That would make sense. I know there’s a couple of direct lines from BOTNS that he rewords in EOS, which some readers might find distracting.

[@mattygroves]

Excellent defense, thank you! There may be justifiable criticisms of Sun Eater (I haven't read it), but its influences are not marks against it. I was about to comment that Wolfe had his own influences, but then you got to it : ) Wolfe too wore his influences on his sleeve, although those sources are no longer widely read by contemporary readers of SF.

[@iSamwise]

That’s absolutely true

[@joemama4570]

Great video! Big Dune fan here who doesn’t fully agree with Frank Herbert’s philosophy (I get the impression that CR is in the same boat). I have yet to read both Sun Eater and BOTNS. I’m very excited to read them. I’ve heard CR in an interview before and he’s mentioned Hyperion and general Roman History as influences as well. I’ve never personally had a problem with an author wearing some influences on their sleeve, as long as they develop the story into their own thing. Glad to hear it’s not a straight Dune copy as some have seemed to suggest!

[@iSamwise]

That’s definitely true. Hope you get a chance to read them soon!

[@tasosalexiadis7748]

@@iSamwise true, you forgot to address the Hyperion inspirations :)

[@OrlandoOrtiz570]

I just talked with a friend across the country last night. He's reading the Sun Eater series and I'm constantly re reading The Book of the New Sun. It's no secret that the former is deeply inspired by the latter (and others). But there really aren't enough books like this. Dune and BOTNS are some of the best works from which to draw inspiration. And that's all I think of it. Edit: I can't call Mr. Ruocchio a dishonest writer because he makes no effort to hide his inspiration. In The Shadow of the Torturer, Severian tells us that the patron saint of soldiers is named Hadrian.

[@iSamwise]

That Patron Saint connection is a good one!

[@abdullahisayuti6698]

​@@iSamwise Yeah that's good but he had already written Empire of silence before read book of the New Sun so this is definitely a coincidence in this case

[@SunEaterBooks]

The Hadrian connection in New Sun is a coincidence. My Hadrian was called that before I read Wolfe.

[@NICKREADSFANTASY]

Great video! I understand your point of view much better now. I think we agree on much of the same, but articulate it different ways. Here is my hot take. Ruocchio, at the time of writing Empire of Silence, did not have the technical writing/story telling skills to accomplish what he set out to do, and because of that, will always live in the shadow of the torturer. (See what I did there). I should make a video about this to completely articulate my thoughts, because while I agree he did not while writing Empire, my experience with the second novel was completely different. It is not that he wore his influences on his sleeve, it’s that he did it poorly (in empire of silence). I love books that have conversations with other books, books that wear their influences on their sleeve. But my opinion is that it is difficult to stick the landing when you do this. I especially love the conversation trying to be had here in Suneater. I am eager and hungry for it. I just don’t think he did it well. One last thing I want to bring up is that I blame the publisher. I think they saw his potential and was rightly interested, but I think they should’ve worked more with him to develop his skills before publishing. So in conclusion. 1. Ruocchio did not plagarize 2. Borrowing and inspiration is not bad, in fact, it is NECESSARY. 3. Empire of silence is a worse than average book because Ruocchio did not have the technical skills needed to accomplish his goal. 4. Publishers are to blame more than Ruocchio himself.

[@iSamwise]

I think that’s a well thought out different take. Thanks for sharing. Though I enjoyed EoS more than you, I definitely find it the weakest of the series! And the shadow of the torturer joke is elite. Haha

[@NICKREADSFANTASY]

@@iSamwise I am making a video about re-reading EoS and my experience with Howling Dark. I will try to articulate it better there. Loving your channel!

[@iSamwise]

@ thanks man!

[@abdullahisayuti6698]

Also the editor at the time had him add certain things like the homeless section so it would be closer to Name of the wind so you can only imagine how much of Dune was mandated too especially since the tag lines for book 1 was that it's like name of the wind and dune. Will be interesting to see how the original Empire Of Silence: The murdered Sun compares since it's releasing soon.

[@NICKREADSFANTASY]

@@abdullahisayuti6698 what is the murdered sun?

[@akiyrjana6558]

I really enjoyed your video. I've just spent three weeks reading the Sun Eater series with some dismay and enjoyment, and many of the points you make have been fomenting in my head also. One of my fave homages/jokes in Sun Eater is the bit where one of the scholiasts in the Empire's library planet is named Aramini. Marc Aramini being a Wolfe shcolar in the real world. But the absolute belly laugh moment came when Hadrian wrote the sentence containing the words "The Left Hand of Darkness". Not to mention the destroyed hands of a Cielcin slave interpreter mirroring the Ha'astakala ritual of hand maiming from Mary Daria Russel's great The Sparrow.

[@iSamwise]

YESSSS! The Aramini joke is one of my favorites. Also Cassian Powers being an homage to author Tim Powers.

[@SunEaterBooks]

I have not read The Sparrow. This comes up frequently, but it is a coincidence.

[@akiyrjana6558]

@@SunEaterBooks I do enjoy the nods and homages in Sun Eater. Especially the fact that Tolkien has become mixed with history. This Sparrow thing must be some kind of morphic resonance, then. In The Sparrow there is also a parasitic race of ruthless carnivores who slave whole populations of their pray. And a guy traumatized by long torture and a lonely starjourney.

[@PerfectCell9]

Excellent video

[@iSamwise]

Thank you

[@orcishdad8075]

Fantastic explanation!

[@iSamwise]

@@orcishdad8075 thank you!

[@Staylecrate]

I think all three series are fantastic for different reason. I think Rouchio's writing is really poetic and flow's very nice for a slow burn. It's hard not to overlap in space opera's. But he does respect his predecessors. Even the blatant nod to Hyperion with the 3 score and 10 reference. But I can see how people that are passionate about each both series and could feel that he's walking over a buddy to cross the barbwire as it were (yeah, I'm not an aspiring writer). Anyway, excellent review my dude! Earn that sub.

[@iSamwise]

Thanks I appreciate the kind words!

[@MacScarfield]

Sam, I really appreciate this video🙌: Among the many things I and Professor Chase spoke about during our meeting in Oslo, was how traditionally storytelling was something communal and, as you say, always in conversation with previous stories and story tellers. I so felt it with the pile of other inspirations for “Sun Eater” 😄(I could add more: Shakespeare’s Playwright Pal Christopher Marlowe, Harlan Ellison, Bram Stoker’s “Dracula”, Romantics such Byron and Percy Shelley, the list goes on!😅). I am actually very glad you mentioned George Lucas and “Star Wars”, not only as an amalgamation of many sources (I could also add Akira Kurosawa’s Filmography, WW2 War Movies and Westerns Movies such as “The Seekers” and Clint Eastwood’s “Man without a Name” and Cl Moore’s “Northwest Smith” SF stories), but also how it served as a point of entry for many to delve into those sources and renew their relevance! Only time will tell if Ruocchio will join similar greats such as Tolkien (who was greatly inspired by Norse mythology, the Finnish Epic Poem of “Kalevala”, “Beowulf”, “The Saga Of Hervor & Heidrek” and “The Song of Roland”, Lord Dunsany, George MacDonald, William Morris, and while he disavowed any influence from Wagner’s “Ring Cycle”, it seems clear to that his Legendarium has to be read as a rebuttal of Wagner’s “capture” of Norse/Germanic Myth into German Nationalism and the anti-religious thoughts of Feuerbach and Schopenhauer (thats before it inspired both Nietzsche and an Failed Austrian Art Student)) and Herbert (to which I could also add “Lawrence of Arabia” as an inspiration for “Dune” and as a rebuttal of Isaac Asimov’s “Foundation” series and the “Capable Men” who dominated 40-50s Sci Fi) to influence future generations of writers! Cheers! 😊

[@iSamwise]

Thanks for the well thought out comments!

[@MN-vw2lo]

I was hoping you'd pull out Berserk when you were naming all the influences in Sun Eater. You should read it if you haven't, unless you just hated KoD.

[@iSamwise]

Haha. I loved KoD and I definitely should’ve added it to the list! Slipped my mind.

[@StevenLynnMusic]

I think Sun Eater's big problem is excess. It's not that references and influences are bad, it's how often they come up in very un-subtle ways. Halfway through Howling Dark I just got tired of hearing about Dante and Goya. The books are also excessively long. I think Ruocchio struggles to moderate himself. The entirety of BOTNS is only 400k words combined, and he said recently that his seventh Sun Eater book is projected to be that long on its own. That's pretty insane when you think about it.

[@iSamwise]

You know I think subtlety will depend on the individual reader and it’s definitely true that the books are very large. I think my overall point is that this is in life with a tradition as old as the genre itself, even if it’s not to a readers preference.

[@bryson2662]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Granted, I've only read book one but it's hardly subtle and where Wolfe could make a complex idea beautiful and succinct, Ruocchio (in book one) was obvious and clunky with it, using too many words

[@codysorenson1370]

This was a great video! You definitely earned a new subscriber!

[@iSamwise]

Thank you so much! Glad to have you as a viewer!!

[@abdullahisayuti6698]

Thanks for this video. You did well tho i woulda wanted you to add Hyperion too. Might be the most influential of any work Sun Eater takes inspos from.

[@iSamwise]

That’s a good call. Definitely on the list.

[@Beech27]

On Star Wars: Ruocchio’s convention table pitch for Suneater is “What if Anakin becoming Darth Vader was necessary and perhaps even right.” He also loves the ROTS novelization you held up, fwiw.

[@iSamwise]

Yep! That’s why I picked the Stover book to hold up. (I can confirm that it is excellent!)

[@andrewdockrill]

Ruocchio does borrow from dune but it definitely stands on its own.

[@willrusso9161]

I didn’t like empire of silence but I loved disquiet gods I have a hard time recommending this series by how hard it it to start

[@iSamwise]

Different strokes for different folks. But I’m so glad DG worked for you. I’m so hyped going into it!!

[@Jonpat]

I had a similar experience. I read EoS and didn’t care much for it. It was a full 2 years before I picked up Howling Dark…and loved it. I devoured the remainder of the series. I attribute it to Ruocchio rediscovering his faith after publishing EoS.

[@sw3dge-Trevor]

I only just read Empire of Silence. Based on what I heard I thought the references would be extremely on the nose and kind of annoying. It didn't feel that way to me at all.

[@iSamwise]

I have to agree.

[@LordTywin-yh5ne]

Will we get a review of Disquiet Gods ?

[@iSamwise]

@@LordTywin-yh5ne that’s a great question. I’m reading it now so we may very well see that down the road.