Embers Adrift - No Sub/Pay2Win

[@MrWhybull]

The “P2W” definition you set makes sense but I believe most gamers are more in line with Josh Strife Hayes’ definition. To be “P2W” requires you being able to throw more money at it and continue to gain advantage as you throw more money at it with no top end on what you can spend. “Whales” are dominating end-game spending thousands, ridiculously priced shop items that give clear advantage to those who buy them, etc. Asheron’s Call vet here myself… good times. Was happy to hear you mention it 😊

[@SuperBitsandBob]

Aye it's a tricky one. I wouldn't consider EA P2W at all if it wasn't for the character per account limitation. This is only because the population means you need 3 characters if you want to be a crafter/gatherer which is pretty big.

[@pip5528]

@@SuperBitsandBob You can craft and gather on a single character as well. Having alts is not strictly necessary and I didn't myself for a long time.

[@SuperBitsandBob]

@@pip5528 There are 3 gathering skills alone right? So it would be very limiting. Unless they have allowed one character to do all.

[@pip5528]

@SuperBitsandBob I believe it takes a fair bit of skill leveling to get multiple professions but in theory it can be done through grind alone. You can of course trade and auction which further reduces the need for alts. Conversely, there's also a shared bank so you can distribute between alts without having to give things to other people and hop over. I appreciate the steps they've taken to make the game more accessible without compromising the core values of having no micro-transactions but of course it is still a niche game even for old-school fans. I still play it on and off but I've been playing way more Quarm lately. Having a free trial up to 3 zones is a nice new addition and I feel that they haven't really made the game feel excessively modern. I can understand your anti-player observations but at the same time, it's easier in some ways than EQ such as not having XP loss. I don't like that you can't equip more bags but at the same time, you don't have to spend gobs of money on them and weight is less of an issue than in EQ. The game feels like a mix of WoW and EQ to me and is a mixed bag but I generally have always liked it and play it casually even though I am addicted to progress and do care about it like you mentioned. My current MMO goal right now is to get to 50 before Quarm releases Kunark which should be doable since I am 31 so far on there. I'm only up to 17 on Embers thus far.

[@chrismj4676]

Game is free to play up to the first 3 zones now. No more sub is required. They have added tons of solo content and daily/repeatable quests. All dungeons at end of the month will have solo loops. They also increased experience of single chev "solo" mobs. The game does have magic in its alchemy system once you hit lvl 20. I would suggest playing the game or asking experienced players about the current status of the game. Many reviews of the game are very old or are from people who didnt get post level 10. There is more than ever to in Embers. Certainly check it ou!

[@pip5528]

I agree even though I kinda play it on and off and have only gotten my knight up to 17 whereas I've been mainly playing Quarm constantly for the past month and got my necro up to 31.

[@thebsfamily2236]

The game has turned around. The community has expanded and is going in the right direction. You need to give it another go.

[@PeanutJaxs]

turned around🤣😂yes, from 10ppl online to 15😂🤣👎

[@Mike-ks6qu]

Game looks shit lol.no magic appeals to virtually nobody.

[@Raider1377]

We miss you on Project Quarm that launched yesterday. Classic EQ, with a future of Luclin and Planes of Power and of course the AA grind. Perhaps you will come around! It's an offshoot of TAKP.

[@SuperBitsandBob]

I plan on playing for sure.

[@TheMatrixArchitect]

Thank you for your honest input.

[@alegend965]

Imagin being a content creator, and not knowing what P2W actually means... I understand you have an opinion, but what's actually P2W about it? Extra character slots?... hardly! The sub is pure convenience as far as I've experienced so far, all be it limited. I started just over a week ago, and I'm nearly lvl 20. Yes it's grindy, but what's the rush? Why do you want to rush to end game like most modern mmorpgs that die within a few months because they simply can't keep up with new content. So far from my experiance, the community is a breath of fresh air. Very friendly, welcoming, helpful etc. I've honestly not met a single toxic player, and that's very rare nowadays. I think being buy to play actually helps keep the trash talking kids out, along with it being grindy, that the majority wouldn't stand for. Some of your points you've made are valid, and no doubt things will get tweaked along the way, but it's a decent game if you're looking for that old shool mmorpg feel, not needing your hand held and given everything you need within a few days. On that note, please learnt what P2W actually means, as it just makes you look stupid imo.

[@SuperBitsandBob]

I mean like, whatever. I couldn’t care less tbh. I am happy with my definition of P2W. You disagree. Fine.

[@dl1277]

Woof, pretty cringe statement - we get it you're a fan boy bro. Smoke their copium as hard as you can

[@bobpage8021]

I followed this game for a while before it got renamed, I never bought it in the end because I just thought the world looked too dull. Killing animals and other humans all day is just a bit mundane for me (there probably are other mob types but the ones I always see are animals or humans). If I'm going to spend a considerable amount of time in a virtual world I want it to be colourful, fun, mysterious, packed with weird and wonderful creates like goblins, orcs, kobolds, dragons, undead etc. Oh yeah and a cool magic system to help me beat them.

[@dcutbi001]

Yeah, you echo very similar reasoning as to why I had very little draw towards the game. Basically, without any magic based abilities within the class system I can't even force interest in a game. I've wished them the best the whole time because some people really enjoy medieval melee combat, but I just can't find the interest in a game where I'm using martial combat for the majority of my gameplay.

[@AbBc-w4q]

you were right.. the world is very boring

[@resort.janitor]

Really wanted to like this game.

[@chrismj4676]

The game no longer has a subscription required, and I have leveled my Brigand to almost 40 without any feeling of pay to win. You can expand your bank space in the game with the gold you earn in the game. Highly recommend this game especially now that they added alchemy/magic.

[@Nobleshield]

Honestly, I think too many of these indie MMOs have rose colored glasses of EQ, and are trying to bring back EQ at launch. What they don't get is that only worked because it was basically brand new, so the idea of playing with people all over the country, even all across the world, was new territory. You could get away with stupid grind like 7 hour respawns on mobs with a small drop chance, because it was cool. You could get away with forcing interacting with other people for basic gameplay, because it was cool to be in a group with people all over the world, like how when chat rooms were a thing in the early days of the internet. That doesn't fly nowadays for the most part. You don't need to make things as bad as say retail WoW where it's virtually singleplayer, but EQ is not the model to hold yourself up to. There's a happy medium between pointless grinds and time-wasting an requiring you to group to do anything, and it being a glorified single player lobby game.

[@mercster]

Sure, but it's really driven (and fueled) by the same myopia in the gAmInG cOmMuNiTy. A small but very loud subset of newbros (and plenty of old timers) look back with either real or imagined nostalgia for this type of game. But if they had it in their hands, would they really want to play it? Probably not... and any attempts to give them what they want are going to be hampered by the fact that there ARE so few of them... the results will be small indie places making half-baked stuff like this, and it just isn't good for anybody. Sure, some triple A massive studio could come along and spend millions of dollars and several years creating a "better" EQ-like MMO, which fulfills the promise better than things like Ember's Adrift and Project Gorgon, etc... but they never will, because the market isn't large enough. They wouldn't get their money back.

[@tgo007]

I used to be a hardcore loyalist to classic eq. I thought modern mmos are too easy and dumbed down but I think I just didn't put enough hours and try enough different mmos because I've changed my mind and I think modern quality of life features make the game better. The only caveat i'll say is I'm primarily a solo player so a lot of the social/group encouraging features of eq don't really benefit me. I might have a different opinion if i was social and grouped. But you can still group and socialize in modern mmos. You're just not asking for ports or rez.

[@nickjordan8996]

This game is not paid a win

[@rcjvet]

Hey Bob, I just purchased the game today and spent several hours in the starter zone. Wow, what a throw-back! It feels like EverQuest2 and SOTA to me. Anyway, I understand they just tweaked combat. From watching your videos, I think they have done well decreasing the time it takes to heal and decreasing combat time in general. What do you think of the game now (October 2023)? I would love to hear your take on the changes.

[@Jp808]

I love it I just wish I had the lifestyle that let me really play the game.

[@HoopleBogart]

I just can't believe they didn't put magic in it man. One of my favorite parts of EQ is just how mystical and mysterious the spells were. Give me particle effects or give me death Edit: that being said i'll totally try this out when it's free to give it a go.

[@chrismj4676]

Might as well call the skills magic. Youve for direct damage, aoes, snares, drowsy, fear, stuns, heal over time, teleportation warps, stamina (mana) regen.. its a think line between a skill and a spell. You just dont see fireballs flying all over that place, and I am fine with that.

[@MrWhybull]

It’s low fantasy, it may still fail but it DID need something to separate itself. I also would have never even tried it if it was another high-fantasy game. There’s enough old school wannabes out there already. They have some work to do for sure, but adding traditional high-fantasy magic would be a bad move in my mind.

[@ninthshade7375]

Even FFXI, another "classic MMO," on servers like Eden or Horizon... doesn't require this level of turbo grind. As you move to different camps/zones, the amount of mobs required per level rebalances and it should never become a turbo grind. Never thousands of mobs per level. In fact, I think in XI it's sensibly designed such that your party's ability to quickly and competently deal with mobs has a significant impact on how quickly the party gains XP. Like, you and your homies are in the driver seat and what you do actually matters. To me, that's cool and engaging. Anyways, bizarre that the Embers devs settled on turbo grind. I wish the devs well and I might check Embers out when it becomes buy to play, but I doubt it'll hold my interest long.

[@sudabdjadjgasdajdk3120]

People are doing a Red server HC guild and it's really fun

[@dcutbi001]

Out of curiosity, in your experience what do you remeber the top two or three players levels being? You mentioned some of the die-hard Embers players being in their mid 20's, is that generally the highest you saw in the game?

[@SuperBitsandBob]

I know a few who no lifed the game have reached 50. When I say die hard its more players who have been around for a long time who are most vocal on Discord. Some of them are not even playing the game.

[@dcutbi001]

@@SuperBitsandBob I know exctly the type of player you're describing. I suspect what makes it tough from a development perspective, especially for a tiny title like Embers, is that their feedback base is already small and then they have very vocal people who are die-hard followers that don't/can't actually provide or accept any constructive criticism levied at gameplay decisions. At the end of the day, that ends up being more of a detriment for development that hinders progressive iteration towards a more satisfying experience for the (potential?) player base at large.

[@SuperBitsandBob]

@@dcutbi001 Indeed I feel like as a dev, I should be listening to everyone except the really invested as they will probably support me regardless of what I do.

[@gangstalkerofgangstalkers]

I said it when it first came out. The amount of money they were asking for the amount of content you got was a joke. I knew this was going to happen.

[@mercster]

I fear this is sort of a last gasp. The bottom line is, the game's content isn't worth the price. The reason it takes so bloody long to level is because there's a lack of content. As a sub game, the only way to get as many months of subscription out of customers is to drag out what content they do have as long as possible. Now that they've hit a wall, they're going to make a free-to-play mode, so they can get the rest of the "curious" people to pay the box price. But once those people are done with it... there's kinda nowhere else to go.

[@mercster]

Big fish in small pond I'm sure is part of it... especially if you're lonely, being part of a small hardcore audience of a niche game can have a very nice feeling to it... the game is peripheral, you really just need someone to talk to. 😏 This is how I was with SOTA, kinda.

[@turinhorse]

lol this guy whines about not having time... blah blah blah but he plays about 5 "slow old school difficult" MMOs. clearly he is finding time. Now, imagine Bob, if you only played 1 MMO? like a normal functional human ;) Maybe your real problem is indecisiveness. Lack of commitment? or maybe you enjoy lots of different games. modern middleclass problems

[@HuxleyBun]

Buy to play* And I would say it's pay for convenience. There's no win condition. And even then, none of the benefits actually directly make you stronger, thus pay for convenience. I understand people not liking certain elements, but at least try to understand the terms.

[@SuperBitsandBob]

Buy to play is a misnomer. You buy to play most games unless it is specifically going for a free to play model. It’s a made up term to deflect from what it is. If the extra character slots weren’t so required then maybe but as it is they are more than a convenience. If one character could have all of the crafting and gathering skills as an example, the extra slots become more of a convenience.

[@HuxleyBun]

@@SuperBitsandBob I mean you're wrong, and most people will correct you. You can buy the game for a set price and have all the same perks subscribers previously had. Subs get a bonus on top of what used to be default. But if you genuinely believe you are right about this, I don't think anyone can stop you. I just feel bad for the people you will mislead.

[@HuxleyBun]

Also, no one needs more than one character. It's a community driven game that encourages teamwork. If you are just looking to solo grind, you are going to suffer. That's just the game they were going for.

[@HuxleyBun]

@@SuperBitsandBob And keep in mind, I don't even like this game. I just call bullshit when I see it.

[@SuperBitsandBob]

@@HuxleyBun Are you aware that you got 3 character slots on the old system for example? So no, you don't get the same perks subscribers previously got. If you are going to call out bullshit at least have a clue as to what you are talking about first. With regards to the character slots. Considering you don't even like the game, you wouldn't know that this game has not had the population it expected to support a community driven game. So, because of that, players could not do the crafting they wanted to because the resources weren't available on the market. Thus, most of us created 3 characters to cover all of the gathering and crafting ourselves. When I say us I mean those of us who have actually played the game a fair bit to understand these issues.

[@lizkimber]

It makes me sad but i fell out of love with Embers Adrift. I liked the designers. I liked the sort of original plan. But much like sota it deviated from what they had said they planned. As is their right. But. I just didnt love it as much and havent logged in in ages. Same was true with project gorgon. Initially the crappy ui didnt bother me. But in the end they seemed to be working for high level players only. As for 1400 mobs , that wouldnt be so bad except if you need like 5 mins down time between a mob, thats 116 odd hours.. YAWN I also think because they live eat and breathe it, they are so used to it, it couldnt feel wrong if they tried

[@floweringmind]

Once you get to 12th level you have to group to make any good leveling and it has be done in dungeons. Dungeons are hell because you have to spend like 4 hours to do a dungeon and you spend most of the time lost because of no mini maping and you are in the dark. Other complaints: Darkness is tooo long. Too slow to walk in areas like Meadow lands. Too little solo content. Wicked grindy.

[@BlakeCDMedia]

"Any game where you pay for a subscription is pay to win"? That doesn't make sense. FFXIV isn't pay to win. It's "pay for the game to exist". What's the alternative? A free game where the studio loses money each month? Either you pay for a monthly sub or it's a real pay-to-win game.

[@SuperBitsandBob]

But, everyone has to pay the sub for FFXIV right? So everyone is the same? In this game it's pay to be better or not.

[@BlakeCDMedia]

@@SuperBitsandBob Yes. Yes. I don't understand.

[@vesavius]

You defintion of pay to win is ridiculous

[@SuperBitsandBob]

Do you pay money for an advantage? Yes. It's not hard really.

[@chrismj4676]

@@SuperBitsandBob I wouldnt consider more bank space pay to win. A sub and a non subbed player will advance just the same no matter how much space they have.