SuperDeterminism Might be Real, But You Shouldn't Believe it! @SabineHossenfelder Rebuts!

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Arvin Ash

Күн бұрын

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@ArvinAsh 4 ай бұрын

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@robhappier 4 ай бұрын

Hi Arvin ! Great Channel!! I agree with you, Superdeterminism is not testable, however you are making the same assumptions about free will. Just like science can't explain non-living from living matter, science can't explain free will and self-aware consciousness in the human mind. A scientific investigation wouldn't be possible without "free will". Without "free will", our minds ("brains") wouldn't know how to separate true information or usable data from influenced information or false data. The results from all scientific investigations would be corrupted. Although computers can be programmed to separate data, a computer can only process data by following a human programmer's instructions. For example, a computer can't decide on it's own to choose another way to separate data, it wasn't programmed to recognize as true information or usable data, and influence information or false data. Human beings can have unlimited creativity, like a professional master artist painting on a blank canvas (computers are limited by it's program and circuits), because of our unlimited imaginations. A human mind is more than chemical reactions reacting to the environment, or a product of the physical universe (God created us). We all have a mind ("self-aware consciousness") that is uniquely ours (including genetically identical twins). A human mind probably exist at the quantum energy level (quantum vacuum energy state of matter) that supersedes classical physics (the ordering of cause and effect of the observable physical universe). This superseding property is necessary to have free will. It allows human beings (with God's help) to overcome their emotions, biases, other preconceived ideas, and instantaneous temptations. Time is also needed to evaluate all possible choices accurately and completely, before a decision is made. Dr. Ruth Kastner PhD.; philosopher at physics department at New York State University (who believes "free will" is real and obeys the laws of quantum physics. The uncertain nature of people is not explained by randomness. Quantum phyics is not random. The positions of the subatomic particles only appear to be random, because exact measurements aren't possible (only probability measurements) with modern-day instruments. The Quantum Eraser experiment shows that quantum entangled particles, like a photon, can influence each other instantaneously across great distances in a timeless and spaceless quantum vacuum energy state of matter- "Is what really defines reality in this space-time" -PBS Space Time.

@Bill..N 4 ай бұрын

Super deterministic ideas, in my humble opinion, will eventually be footnotes in scientific history.. In essence, NOT taken seriously and with a tinge of amusement.. I still like Sabine, though! Good stuff..

@ZephyrusTheReal 4 ай бұрын

*SOMEBODY PEER REVIEW MY UNIFIED LAGRANGIAN*

@Bill..N 4 ай бұрын

@TuxedoMaskMusic The worm simulation you refer to is FAR from fully simulated despite suggestions it is.. It can't lay eggs with the ability to reproduce freely, right? At this point, it seems more like a mannequin or shell than a complete simulation..

@mydogsbutler 4 ай бұрын

Sabina argued in another video that free will doesn't exist baed on her belief in super determinism. I would argue free will is an emergent property that is evidence against super determinism.. A thought experiment... Lets say we had a machine so advanced it could track every particle/wave in the universe perfectly. A scientist and participant are part of an experiment to test it. The machine says to the scientist in one minute I would lift my right arm. And low in behold in one minute I lift my right hand. Case closed. Super determinism wins., Nope. What if we conduct the same exact experiment but the scientist conducting the experiment tells the participant in advance that they will lift their right arm. Whats to stop the subject from lifting their left arm? This suggests to me at least some information is forever hidden from us. And we interprete that as free will. We can't define freewill precisely because of hidden information.

@SabineHossenfelder 4 ай бұрын

Thanks, Arvin, for this wonderful video!

@w01dnick 4 ай бұрын

What I think is missing - some analogues to criticism of superdeterminism in other interpretations. Like SD problem with hidden variables is mapped to wave function collapse problem in Copenhagen interpretation, etc.

@vresportsbrasil 4 ай бұрын

Master Sabine! Much love from Brazil! 😍

@davismccarty6424 4 ай бұрын

😊

@AquarianSoulTimeTraveler 4 ай бұрын

10:28 Nothing is independent here in the universe everything came from The Big Bang Singularity so of course nothing is independent of the setup! If that is the ultimate conclusion then of course super determinism is real!

@cosmopolitan4598 4 ай бұрын

Yes, this is a very wonderful video.

@adhamr23 4 ай бұрын

I am so lucky to be alive today when great physicists can teach on KZbin for free

@nate5eplayer574 4 ай бұрын

Right? 😁

@alexthompson7289 4 ай бұрын

This is the true beauty and potential of the Internet.

@haydenwalton2766 4 ай бұрын

if something is free, it means you are the product

@1337treats 4 ай бұрын

🔭 and 🎸 : 📺 👌🏼

@slick6699 4 ай бұрын

I usually use KZbin to watch dog videos.

@agpc0529 4 ай бұрын

Thank you for having an intellectual debate without professorial ego

@TheNameOfJesus 4 ай бұрын

We need to have a vote to replace the phrase "It's not rocket science!" with "It's not quantum physics!"

@hlcepeda 4 ай бұрын

Why not accept both? "It's not rocket science" is just another way of saying that something is not complicated or not too difficult to understand. In that case, replacing one phrase for the other makes no sense.

@philshorten3221 4 ай бұрын

for god sake just use whatever you want.... its not brain surgery😂

@hyperduality2838 4 ай бұрын

Certainty (predictability, syntropy) is dual to uncertainty (unpredictability, entropy) -- the Heisenberg certainty/uncertainty principle. Randomness (entropy) is dual to order (syntropy). "Entropy is a measure or randomness" -- Roger Penrose. Syntropy is a measure of order -- certainty. Super determinism is dual to super non determinism. Making predictions is a syntropic process -- teleological. Teleological physics (syntropy) is dual to non teleological physics (entropy) -- physics is dual. Information is dual. Average information (entropy) is dual to mutual or co-information (syntropy). Sine is dual to cosine or dual sine -- the word co means mutual and implies duality! Mutual or co-information is used to make predictions -- syntropic! Concepts are dual to percepts -- the mind duality of Immanuel Kant. "Always two there are" -- Yoda. Super determinism implies absolute, objective prediction or complete certainty. "Only the Sith think in terms of absolutes" -- Obi Wan Kenobi. Repetition (patterns) is dual to variation (randomness) -- music is dual.

@Staroy 4 ай бұрын

@@hyperduality2838 eat your meds mate

@GlennHamblin 4 ай бұрын

@@TheNameOfJesus How about it's not rocket surgery?

@danielirwin2907 4 ай бұрын

Arvin and Sabine (along w Nick Lucid) are my favorites. Much respect to you, Arvin, for having a rebuttal in your own video. That sort of civility and debate is quite uncommon in today’s world. This is beyond the level of the students in my physics and chemistry classes but you often make great stuff for them too. You help make the world better.

@ArvinAsh 4 ай бұрын

Thanks so much. Glad you find these videos useful!

@philochristos 4 ай бұрын

Nick Lucid is the man.

@hyperduality2838 4 ай бұрын

@NondescriptMammal 4 ай бұрын

Totally agree, I think it is a sign of true scientific integrity to include a rebuttal. And I really enjoyed how clearly both viewpoints were expressed.

@101Mant 4 ай бұрын

@@hyperduality2838I've seen you post your crazyness on many physics videos but now you have Star Wars quotes in there pretty sure it's just trolling.

@gabrielbarrantes6946 4 ай бұрын

Reality splitting in many universes is more accepted than everything being deterministic? They just need to believe they have free will...

@ArvinAsh 4 ай бұрын

The interesting thing is that the Many Worlds interpretation does not automatically mean free will either. There is no splitting of worlds simply because a person makes a decision. The splitting of worlds occurs only when there there a quantum interaction.

@yacc1706 4 ай бұрын

@@ArvinAshbut there is a branch where the interaction do happen AND another branch where it doesn't happen

@reverend11-dmeow89 4 ай бұрын

I was presented with a 14-minute video of myself doing something completely different than my 30ish-hour contiguous memory spanning from the night prior through well past the recorded event, a full month after I had spent the full four weeks going through my recall of the whole day.. Something incredibly special happened in my recall. While the expression on my other self's visage I have not seen in my mirror for 30ish years. Which was ate the exact point in time the me then had a similar episode of an incredibly valuable situation that changed my life in a context that is the common denominator between the two. Not one mental I mean behavioral health psychiatrist allows me to speak or it. Their loss😂

@calebbrunson7120 4 ай бұрын

@gabrielbarrantes6946 and you need to believe you aren’t responsible for your choices.

@kingofmaiars 4 ай бұрын

@@calebbrunson7120that assumes determinists must be morally bankrupt to be able to object to free will. One can object to all sort of nebulous ideas without being accused with moral liability. In essence your argument is an appeal to authority whereas OP's is an observation. He does not stand to benefit from you being emotionally compromised in this debate. If you actually believe he is a determinist you have to concede the fact that he is not obligated to feel shame just because you accuse him of immorality. After all he is not responsible for his actions. Hope I was clear enough. Cheers.

@kenclubb 4 ай бұрын

17:03 There is no way to verify many worlds either, and it requires postulating additional never-observable Universes exist, whereas SD only requires assuming that conservation laws are valid at all scales and we just cannot grasp all the virtual particle effects at such small scales.

@varun7952 4 ай бұрын

Conservation law break at expansion of the universe

@georgerevell5643 4 ай бұрын

you say " it requires postulating additional never-observable Universes exis" no, the many worlds is a poor name as it is only locally that superpositions exist, not globally.

@kingofmaiars 4 ай бұрын

@@varun7952Cosmologists break conservation laws all the time. They're hypothesing about the big bang so I guess anything goes when inflation is magically able to create matter out of nothing. Quantum mechanics is obviously very different. They can't expect you to believe in them when their theories clearly violate laws of thermodynamics in the here and now. Because unlike the big bang, their theories are expected to be experimentally reproducible.

@HaeikeVraeik 3 ай бұрын

@@georgerevell5643 no, the many world interpretation expands entanglement and superposition onto the entire universe, so whenever a wave collapses, the entire universe is split

@georgerevell5643 3 ай бұрын

@@HaeikeVraeik NO! If two quantum particles entangle on earth, the state of a particle on the other side of the universe does not instantly split into two versions, one for each of the versions of the particle on earth. That would be stupid if it split the whole universe as it would add non locality back which is half the point of MWI is to restore locality

@JaguarBST 4 ай бұрын

Perfect timing for a video before bed. Your soothing voice always calms my nerves.

@wideeyewanderer1785 4 ай бұрын

This is what I call science. The continuous conversation between people with different interpretations of the evidences at hand! Bravo for be so amazing sir

@marciodasb5189 4 ай бұрын

The idea of bringing in Sabine was AMAZING, honestly, such a great thing to have happened.

@garysteven1343 4 ай бұрын

Wanted more of her. Listening to her ideas and worldview is a treat for ears and mind ❤️

@dougaltolan3017 4 ай бұрын

With all the dodgy "science" that vested interests are paying for, it's nice to see true science where ideas are strengthened not by investment, but by conversation. Maybe Sabine can find the funding to formulate a worthwhile superdeterministic theory.....

@xycap8351 4 ай бұрын

If she was a man she would be considered a mediocre thinker. But she still made a whole song and dance ( LITERALLY) whining and complaining about "patriarchy". Virtuesignallist misandry isn't good science ...

@sergeyromanov5560 4 ай бұрын

No. Superdeterminism is hogwash. It is not sufficient to merely state that there are correlations. You have to explain, why and how they lead to uniform results that mimic the quantum theory.

@marcozec5019 3 ай бұрын

Thanks Arvin for your video! It's difficult to find podcasts arguing for both sides, mostly you have only one bell ringing.. and you took it seriously to propperly explain your opposing view, its so refreshing..!

@ArvinAsh 3 ай бұрын

Exactly what I was aiming for! Thanks for watching.

@kurtsmock2246 4 ай бұрын

To me, super determinism is the only thing that makes sense. It makes the most sense because it maximizes what we don't know while also understanding it all makes sense. There's far more of the universe we can't see than what we can in the universe and there's far more we don't know than what we know. But when we look at how the pieces demonstrably fit together, it all seems rather mechanistic. The wild card in my mind is emergence; things adding up to more than the sum of it's parts. But, generally I find super determinism to match the closest to how I understand reality.

@kurtsmock2246 2 ай бұрын

@@pauljohnson570 It is dependent on your definition of "God" If (God does and exist) and (the way you understand the universe precludes his existence) Then, I would assert, either you understanding of the universe is wrong or your understanding of God is wrong. I further assert its more likely that the understanding of God is wrong because the science is testable and allows for a higher density of agreed upon reality, which gives it more value than that which is unprovable and often used in systems of population control. It could be that what the ancients called "God" is just the quantum level of reality as they understood it, or perhaps God exists outside the confines of this universe and sees it as a solid state (whereas inside we perceive time). I don't think it wise to close one's mind to all possibilities that have a potential to be one day proven, despite the fact that they currently cannot be (not to say you are not doing that, just clarifying my approach on the topic.)

@aristideau5072 2 ай бұрын

just because you cannot measure it, doesnt mean it has not got a specfic value at a point in time (down to the shortest length of time)?, also why does this even have to rely on whether us as humans can or cannot know a particles value?, isnt that a very anthropic (and very arrogant) way of looking at the universe?

@kurtsmock2246 2 ай бұрын

@@aristideau5072 what do you suggest as an alternative?

@robadkerson 4 ай бұрын

Two of the best science sources on the interwebs. It was destined to happen

@JaguarBST 4 ай бұрын

They have collaborated before this video.

@WalayatFamily 4 ай бұрын

collaborated in bed.

@zeljkokuvara6145 4 ай бұрын

All Of This Has Happened Before And Will Happen Again...

@robadkerson 4 ай бұрын

@@JaguarBST yeah but then the joke doesn't work...

@LTVoyager 4 ай бұрын

Just as it is inevitable that someone will confuse the internet with the World Wide Web and call it, erroneously, the interweb. 😂

@ottomol5647 4 ай бұрын

In this video, two minds that have my attention.... Thanks from Brazil

@Lucas.boninsegna 3 ай бұрын

Omg am i really gonna watch Arvin and Sabine? Wow wow 🎉❤

@lemondemerveilleuxdechrist6515 4 ай бұрын

Finally a new video explaining the concept of SUPERDETERMINISM! This new paradigm, even if it may be counterintuitive, seems to me more simple and realistic than the other interpretations because it does not postulate new exotic elements. It also has the advantage of being completely in line with the Einsteinian eternalist block universe!

@Thomas-gk42 4 ай бұрын

That´s right.

@sunaglarecrim 4 ай бұрын

Many things seem random until you find the pattern that connects them. In due time we will come to the understanding that the universe is superdeterministic.

@victorecho2 4 ай бұрын

I think that the real interpretation is a superposition of all possible interpretations

@sinajamil306 4 ай бұрын

exactly

@mahershtat6029 4 ай бұрын

Well done, Mr. Irwin. A wonderful explanation that is easy to understand for non-physicists

@mpetrison3799 3 ай бұрын

Me: "How common or rare is a belief in super-determinism (or strict determinism) among those with PhDs in physics?" Belief in strict determinism is uncommon among physicists with PhDs, and super-determinism is even less frequent. Here's why: Strict Determinism: Most physicists accept that the universe operates under physical laws, but randomness plays a role at the quantum level. Strict determinism suggests everything is predetermined, which clashes with quantum mechanics. Super-determinism: This is a loophole in Bell's theorem, a famous physics concept. It proposes hidden variables pre-determine everything, including the choices scientists make during experiments. While a technical possibility, it's seen as unlikely due to: Lack of explanatory power: It doesn't explain much beyond the correlations observed in Bell's theorem. Occam's razor: Simpler explanations (like randomness in quantum mechanics) are preferred. However, there are a few physicists who advocate for super-determinism, like Sabine Hossenfelder. But it's a minority view. Love Sabine. But she's such a borderline crank on this issue, Gemini ends up mentioning her (and her alone) by name.

@ArvinAsh 3 ай бұрын

Sounds about right!

@Thomas-gk42 3 ай бұрын

"borderline crank" - something like that might have told Albert Einstein too, when he first time came up with special relativity. Trust in Gemini? Well there are some others out there on the field: Tim Palmer, Sandro Donadi, Emely Adlam, Gerard T´Hooft (Noble winner), Gilles Brassard...

@mpetrison3799 3 ай бұрын

@@Thomas-gk42 Even Einstein knew Einstein got pwnt by N. Bohr on the "God does not play dice" stuff. Determinism is fringe kookiness nowadays, sorry.

@Thomas-gk42 3 ай бұрын

@@mpetrison3799 i don´t see an argument.

@mpetrison3799 3 ай бұрын

@@Thomas-gk42 Other than Einstein himself knowing he was being a dumbass? Look, nothing is ever proven or disproven in philosophy, including metaphysics. But determinism is about as dead as Last Thursdayism. Have a nice day, crackpot!

@daviddelgado6090 4 ай бұрын

From this exposition Superdeterminism sides with Einstein in his objection to Bohr's 'spooky action at a distance ', and supports his instinctual response that the glove was already right-handed before the box was opened. Very refreshing, I've always been partial to Einstein v Bohr on entanglement.

@WahookaTheGoblinKing 4 ай бұрын

Do we have a satisfactory definition of randomness? Without it we cannot even know if nondeterminism and determinism are valid distinctions.

@robertbutsch1802 4 ай бұрын

This is a great question. Gets to the heart of the issue.

@michaelrose93 4 ай бұрын

I thought it just meant "completely unpredictable," perhaps with the caveat "within a set of parameters."

@robertbutsch1802 4 ай бұрын

@@michaelrose93 Pseudorandom numbers from a computer can meet all the mathematical requirements for randomness but they are still the result of a deterministic process. I think the OP was referring to “real” randomness (if it exists).

@michaelrose93 4 ай бұрын

@@robertbutsch1802 Isn't the sequence of the pseudorandom numbers based upon the seed value? If you know that value then it's not entirely random. I would think that randomness would imply unpredictability based upon the starting conditions as well.

@CircuitrinosOfficial 4 ай бұрын

@@michaelrose93Pseudorandom numbers having a seed just makes them repeatable. If you were given two lists of "random numbers," one from a pseudorandom generator and one from a "true random" source. There is no test you could do to determine which is which. Without already knowing the seed, pseudorandom numbers are indistinguishable from "true randomness" if it exists. For all we know, the randomness of quantum mechanics could actually be pseudorandom and we just don't know what the seed is.

@WhydoIsuddenlyhaveahandle 4 ай бұрын

What an amazing collab!

@laughingman7882 3 ай бұрын

Arvin just straight insults Dr.Sabine after her explanation 😂😭

@Megan.eco-Instinct 4 ай бұрын

This was so cool!! I'm still on the fence about this one. I will just have to keep listening to the arguments coming from both of you. But then... I'm used to doing that - I've been listening to the both of you for years now :)

@davidclark682 4 ай бұрын

Next, Arvin discusses the similarities between Calvinism and determinism. 😂

@timwlake 4 ай бұрын

Wow, I didn't know about Superdeterminism until now. You both did a great job explaining it! So interesting

@karapetrov-ic 4 ай бұрын

There is a discussion in law theory that we don’t need prisons or other kinds of criminal justice because of super determinism. Some argue that it’s not someone’s fault to be a criminal because the universe had already decided how the person would act.

@schawo2 4 ай бұрын

But with SD, it is also determined, that the person HAS TO GO to prison.

@mawnkey 4 ай бұрын

Yeah that's pure academic stupidity used to justify a particular political view. The bottom line is that even with super determinism at play, you _still_ need to isolate them from society to prevent them from harming others in the future. It's just that now you're destined to do it or not rather than making a choice about it.

@jeffbguarino 4 ай бұрын

It is still their fault, even if they can't control it. The same way you lock up a lion that you know will eat you. The lion eats other animals by its nature. So by locking up a thief, they brain of the thief will remember what it is like to serve time and not commit more crimes. In other words there is a built in behavior that has to be modified , that behavior is what we call the fault. It is a fault because most people think it is very undesirable in society.

@FelenzoGara 4 ай бұрын

Justice is a concept for maintaining order.

@philshorten3221 4 ай бұрын

so when it comes to sending a convicted criminal to prison... SORRY we don't have a choice! 😂

@ericroodhouse3994 4 ай бұрын

Even if everything is predetermined, the system is so complex that our ability to reconize it as such is impossible at this point. For all practical purposes it is percieved as having choice.

@robsquared2 4 ай бұрын

But the social outcomes are important. If we accept we have no free will then we can talk about how to handle things like criminal justice. If the people doing crimes are not at fault, we can focus on restorative justice and behavior modification, not simply punitive punishments.

@corrineagnello4584 4 ай бұрын

@@robsquared2You’re opening a whole other rabbit hole.!

@renzo3939 4 ай бұрын

@@robsquared2 I disagree. Even if our choices are predetermined, the consequences or lack thereof are still used to make our decisions, using your logic nobody can be blamed for anything. The possibility of punishment is pre-emptive behavior modification

@jriosvz 4 ай бұрын

now you have all the answers

@andreasrumpf9012 4 ай бұрын

@@robsquared2 Your whole argument assumes that people can "decide" to accept not to have free will. Which would only be possible if they have free will...

@Deez-Master 4 ай бұрын

Super cool to have you two on one video! I enjoyed.

@danielpaulson8838 4 ай бұрын

You can predict where that isolated particle will go with certainty, depending how you view it. That particle that gets isolated to fire through a slit is never outside of the field that carries it. Like isolating a drop of water in the ocean to look at. It's still in the ocean and will move in accordance with the motion of the waves. This is just energy we don't interact with till we isolate a particle to look at. A particle is a tiny tiny piece of wave, that never is outside of its carrier wave. You know when you fire it, it will appear with complete certainty in one of the normal wave impact zones on the other side of the slit.

@hyperduality2838 4 ай бұрын

@aicguy 4 ай бұрын

@@hyperduality2838You're gonna have to break that down for me again 🤔

@hyperduality2838 4 ай бұрын

@@aicguy Rational, analytic (a priori) is dual to empirical, synthetic (a posteriori) -- Immanuel Kant. Before measurement (mathematics, a priori) is dual to after measurement (physics, a posteriori) -- knowledge is dual. Deductive reasoning (mathematics) is dual to inductive reasoning (physics) -- Immanuel Kant. Duality creates reality! If you read some Immanuel Kant then this should become obvious but you will have to do some work.

@Faustobellissimo 4 ай бұрын

Brillian video. Please make more collaborations with Sabine.

@Thomas-gk42 4 ай бұрын

She´s marvolous.

@harryseldon362 4 ай бұрын

I've been an OPERA user for years! Haven't found anything better yet.

@ArvinAsh 4 ай бұрын

I agree. It's darn good.

@jacksourlis4151 4 ай бұрын

Great talk, and the following may help Sabina without having to spend a lot of money on a new experiment but rather of implementing two other experiments…for a better understanding of physics in general. Something no one else has thought of… I call it the “Sourlis Implementation”… Combining the double-slit experiment with the photoelectric effect: Normally these are considered separate experimental setups, but merging them by using a metal plate instead of a standard detection screen is an innovative approach. The indirect observation of interference: Rather than directly observing the interference pattern on a screen, you are inferring it from the spatial distribution of the emitted photoelectrons/secondary electrons. This adds an extra layer of complexity. The delicate balance between wave and particle behavior: The ability to switch between observing interference (wave-like behavior) and obtaining "which-slit" information (particle-like behavior) by simply adding the detectors is a quintessential demonstration of the wave-particle duality in quantum mechanics. The potential for new insights: This modified setup may provide additional insights into the fundamental principles governing the behavior of quantum particles and the measurement process. Exploring the interplay between interference, detection, and electron emission could lead to a deeper understanding into the: a) Wavefunction, as with no detectors in place behind the slits because of the wavefunction intensity will lead to higher emissions and thus provide insights or interpretation of the wavefunction by this intentional manipulation. b) It will reinforce superdeterminism and bohemian mechanics. c) The multiverse theory will have to be redefined. d) Potential Insights into Quantum Computing and Information: Understanding the relationship between wavefunction manipulation and quantum phenomena could have implications for the development of quantum technologies, such as quantum computing and quantum communication. And more And this is based on if the observed results match the standard quantum mechanical model, the very fact that we can intentionally control the wavefunction intensity to produce the anticipated outcomes could be seen as evidence supporting the principles of superdeterminism. The 3 scenarios of results are 1. Wavefunction Intensity play a role as this would be according to the standard Quantum Mechanical theory. 2. Wavefunction Intensity did not have an effect on results which would indicate something a miss with special relativity and that quantum mechanics would have to be redefined without its constraints place on it by special relativity. 3. No emission from plate with detectors in behind the slits would indicate a misunderstanding by mainstream physics, and if this was the case i would suggest the next step would be to remove the slits with leaving the detectors and the full implementation of the rest of the dual experiments intact, and if further no emissions my theory which I have would be of some use, and which lead me to suggesting this implementation being looked into. (Note the two fundamental concepts that the speed of light being constant and that of entanglement being a byproduct would remain yet the Doppler effect would have to be revised). Overall, the integration of these two foundational quantum experiments has the potential to provide a more comprehensive picture of the wavefunction and its behavior, as well as shed light on the ongoing debate between deterministic and probabilistic interpretations of quantum mechanics, including the concept of superdeterminism.

@jacksourlis4151 4 ай бұрын

The Sourlis Implementation Of the double-slit and photoelectric effect experiments: Apparatus: 1. Monochromatic light source (e.g., LED or low-power laser) with a photon energy just above the work function of the metal plate 2. Double slit apparatus 3. Metal plate (e.g., thin aluminum or copper foil) chosen to have a work function matched to the photon energy 4. Photoelectron detectors (e.g., microchannel plate detectors) placed behind each slit 5. Voltage source to apply a potential difference across the metal plate 6. Ammeter or picoammeter to measure the photoelectric current 7. Collimating optics (e.g., lenses, apertures) to control the beam shape and angle of incidence 8. Mounting hardware to securely hold the components in place 9. Case 2: Using electrons as the source 10. Apparatus: 11. Electron source (e.g., thermionic electron gun) with an energy just above the work function of the metal plate 12. Double slit apparatus 13. Metal plate (e.g., thin aluminum or copper foil) chosen to have a work function matched to the electron energy 14. Electron detectors (e.g., microchannel plate detectors) placed behind each slit 15. Voltage source to apply a potential difference across the metal plate 16. Ammeter or picoammeter to measure the secondary electron current 17. Collimating and focusing optics (e.g., electrostatic or magnetic lenses) to control the electron beam 18. Vacuum chamber to maintain a high-vacuum environment 19. Mounting hardware to securely hold the components in place The key updates are: * Using a monochromatic light source or a low-energy electron source, just above the work function of the metal plate * Choosing the metal plate material to have a work function matched to the photon/electron energy * This ensures the photoelectric effect or secondary electron emission is induced, but without excessive energy that could complicate the experimental observations.

@jacksourlis4151 4 ай бұрын

Regarding the multiverse or many worlds interpretation…the standard MWI predicts that the wavefunction should maintain its interference pattern and higher overall intensity, even with the presence of the slit detectors, since the wavefunction does not collapse according to this interpretation. However, the experimental findings show a lower wavefunction intensity when the detectors are in place, which appears to contradict the MWI's predictions. Overall, I believe the MWi can be further developed and combined with other quantum interpretations to provide a more comprehensive understanding of the complex dynamics at play in the combined double slit and photoelectric effect experiment. By exploring the selective amplification or "biasing" of wavefunction branches, as well as the role of decoherence and measurement interactions, the MWI may be able to be reconciled with the experimental observations. But a case could be made for the MWI whereas the other interpretations could not, and, that would be if no difference is made from the wavefunction intensity (meaning no change in emissions)… explained… Experiment result #2… The experiment shows no reduction in wavefunction intensity, even with the presence of detectors. * This would be a surprising result, as it would contradict the established experimental evidence. * If verified, it would lend strong support to the standard MWI and its prediction of the preservation of the full wavefunction and interference pattern. * It could undermine the current understanding of the role of measurement and decoherence in quantum mechanics. * This outcome would likely require a significant rethinking of how we model the interactions between quantum systems, measurement devices, and the environment. • It could lead to a major shift in the theoretical foundations of quantum mechanics, potentially favoring the MWI over other interpretations.

@FisicaModerna 4 ай бұрын

Thank you for the video, it has been inspiring and very clear ! I guess that conservation of information and reversibility would strongly imply superdeterminism.

@albertorasa6220 4 ай бұрын

I don't like superdeterminism, but like a lot your comparison with Sabine's ideas in a video, because I like you both.

@jeffgriffith9692 4 ай бұрын

Couldn't ask for a better collaboration! Of course, it was always determined to be 😉

@hyperduality2838 4 ай бұрын

@TheNexusComplex 4 ай бұрын

I think you may have meant to say "super determined". 😂

@AveratisArmada 4 ай бұрын

Right away I'll say that I prefer Sabine's approach to SD. On that note, I also think it is "better" than Copenhagen and many worlds. In Copenhagen the measurement is equivalent to the "and then a miracle happens" of those science jokes. It's completely mysterious and taken on faith. Similarly, many worlds depends on "just trust me, there are other universes but we can't ever prove it" because the math somehow allows it. Why would any of these two alternatives be better than simply allowing for all causes and correlations to have been fixed since the beginning? The alternative is some kind of acausal motion, not even probabilistic, but without any reference to the past.

@ForwardSynthesis 4 ай бұрын

It's why the argument that superdeterminism is unfalsifiable doesn't hold up, since it applies just as much to wave function collapse. If there's no mechanism behind it, how can you prove that's what's happening in the first place? How do you undergrid your interpretation without a mechanism that proves your interpretation correct? Of course, if we did know the mechanism of wave function collapse, then it would cease to be probabilistic in the first place and would render the theory deterministic. It seems paradoxical.

@tristanmills4948 4 ай бұрын

People prefer these because they allow for free will in some way. Superdeterminism strips that away and exposes the illusion of free will (although we still tend to act as if we have it, because it is a great psychological tool to survive without a complete existential crisis).

@Necris-ql2py 4 ай бұрын

Where is all this heap of hidden parameters stored? Outside the physical universe on a computer that simulates Elon Musk?

@AbsentMinded619 4 ай бұрын

The massive leap in logic to “you don’t have free will!” from an unfalsifiable model involving quantum interactions is just another example of how so much of science is driven by competing politics and worldview. We don’t even know how the brain makes a thought. We do know that decisions are made based on external information and that we experience and exercise free will by any reasonable definition; including the ability to alter our choices on a whim just to demonstrate that we have free will. Rather than free will being preserved by people “afraid” that nothing matters, there seem to be too many nihilists terrified that everything matters.

@dewaard3301 4 ай бұрын

I love these occasional collabs between channels I follow. Makes me feel 'part of the team'.

@bentationfunkiloglio 4 ай бұрын

Great video! More than one perspective in Super D same discussion was super informative.

@CaptainPeterRMiller 4 ай бұрын

Very illustrative video and excellent content. Thanks Arvin.

@davisbest 4 ай бұрын

I'm with Sabine on this one, I believe as measurements get more refined, predicable outcomes will increase revealing an underlying super-determinism of the universe. Either way, super exciting stuff.

@djayjp 4 ай бұрын

The universe's ultimate conspiracy theory 😂

@ArvinAsh 4 ай бұрын

Haha...not a bad take!

@binbots 4 ай бұрын

We observe the universe in the present moment (wave function collapse) surrounded by the observable therefore, predictable past (general relativity) moving towards the unobserved therefore, probabilistic future (quantum mechanics).

@VictorVæsconcelos 4 ай бұрын

Frankly the probabilistic interpretation is the conspiracy theory. And it was pushed under actual violence. Bohr was not nice.

@anywallsocket 4 ай бұрын

@@binbots you really out here spamming your idea on irrelevant posts? you've more pride than that :P

@binbots 4 ай бұрын

@@anywallsocket lol that was an accident. Didn’t realize it was in a response section. Thanks for being on top of it.

@windfoil1000 4 ай бұрын

The description of pilot wave theory was enlightening. Thanks.

@hubertheiser 4 ай бұрын

The wonderful thing about videos like this is that I'm more confused after watching them than I was before because I better understand what we don't understand.

@kylebeatty7643 4 ай бұрын

Indeed! I knew I didn't understand the questions and I still don't, but I know I feel that I have a few neurons worth of understanding my lack of understanding

@Soooooooooooonicable 4 ай бұрын

The idea that the universe is unfolding as it was always destined to is a very comforting thought.

@jackieow 4 ай бұрын

Until you get mugged.

@racookster 4 ай бұрын

Not if you talk to a Calvinist.

@litsci4690 4 ай бұрын

@@racookster Indeed. The distinction between determinism and predestination or fatalism is too subtle for many.

@ministerofjoy 4 ай бұрын

Thank you both, what an starry appearance 🌌👁️🙌✨👏🏽👏🏼👏🏼

@dennistucker1153 4 ай бұрын

Super determinism to me sounds much more plausible than the Copenhagen interpretation.

@kas8131 4 ай бұрын

Exactly what I was thinking. Seems like Copenhagen advocates have had 100 years to give an explanation of measurement and they don’t have one. The characteristics of superdeterminism seem much easier to swallow.

@schokolade1735 4 ай бұрын

@@kas8131 Currently this boils down to either preferring to not have a satisfactory explanation of the measurement process or the hidden variables. I prefer not to choose at all for now...

@tbayley6 4 ай бұрын

@@kas8131AIUI superdeterminism requires that particles at the quantum level are correlated with macroscopic objects such as measurement devices. That makes very little sense to me. It's not just that an observer has no choice of what measurement to make, but also that the whole configuration of the device including any human intervention is pre-determined according to the PARTICULAR particle being measured. If it was the particle next door, the settings would have been different. Except of course it was impossible to measure any particle other than the one measured, just as it's impossible that we would NOT have the power to imagine otherwise. And yet that power of imagination and apparent free choice has delivered so much order in our part of the universe. Mulling over what might be, or what might have been, is how thought itself is constituted. In other words total delusion proves to be the basis of enlightenment. Such a setup is so wild, I think it's almost the perfect proof of theism. Except of course that theists typically require God to have given mankind free will.

@sergeyromanov5560 4 ай бұрын

Superdeterminism is hogwash. It is not sufficient to merely state that there are correlations. You have to explain, why and how they lead to uniform results that mimic the quantum theory.

@dekhrahahoon 4 ай бұрын

Thanks for this wonderful video! When I was a graduate student, long ago, I tried to solve the measurement problem, not knowing that the correct answer (decoherence) was being developed elsewhere. That led to the many worlds interpretation, in which all possible futures exist somewhere in some pattern of the wave function. The common interpretation of that interpretation is that therefore the world is deterministic because if every pattern of waves in the wave function keeps on rolling on, and we are unaware of them solely because "our" wave pattern no longer interferes with the others, then there is a "them" equally unaware of "us" in their wave pattern. If every outcome happens "somewhere", then the only thing we can say about ourselves is that we are the version of "us" that just happens to be in this particular part of the wave function. Ergo, no free will. I came to the conclusion that there is a mistake - not in the theory, but in the way of looking at it - that not only rescues free will but makes it, if anything, more likely than determinism, even if one accepts every assumption behind many worlds. It is a long story to explain, but I am close to completing two novels (yes, novels!) that explain why. Hopefully the first will be out before the end of the year, so if you are interested, look for "For Selenya" and its sequel, "For Katenya" Now your excellent video has given us a neat summary by Sabine (clearer than her longer versions, imho) of superdeterminism. And it became clear that the same oversight is happening here. IOW, even if all the assumptions behind superdeterminism are correct, it still doesn't say anything about whether free will exists. I'll now have to bung that in somewhere! :-) Very best wishes for your future research! Cheers Ron House.

@Thomas-gk42 4 ай бұрын

"...it still doesn't say anything about whether free will exists." - exactly 💯! That's what all those half-intelligent philosophy-guys don't get, and it's what Sabine constantly explained a hundred times. U admire her patience.

@monkerud2108 2 ай бұрын

But yeah. I ranted a lot, wsnted to wait a bit before reacting to this one, but here we are, and i enjoyed the video, it was very good and clear, thank you ^^.

@jmcsquared18 4 ай бұрын

Whatever the answer, I doubt we will solve the measurement problem until we find out how quantum mechanics interacts with gravity. Some of the most beautiful proposals solve both the measurement problem and quantum gravity with the same idea (e.g., Penose's objective collapse, ER = EPR, Oppenheim's postquantum theory).

@Ankara_pharao 4 ай бұрын

Beauty is not a criterion. Theory has to predict experiment, it has no obligations to be beautiful.

@jmcsquared18 4 ай бұрын

@@Ankara_pharao I didn't say it has to be beautiful. I said these ideas were beautiful imo, for several reasons. They also happen to be all be motivated extremely well.

@Mentaculus42 4 ай бұрын

At least they are thinking outside the box and not slaves to orthodoxy. But things seem to be moving slowly or not at all.

@hyperduality2838 4 ай бұрын

@Azupiru 4 ай бұрын

Superdeterminism is absolutely my cup of tea. But I also add in an epistemological argument against the Copenhagen-etc.-interpretations, and their perpetuation of the status quo of Western Metaphysics. That's all they serve to do. Instead of taking an epistemically agnostic position, so many physicists rush to defend the last hope for 'free will,' while sacrificing all those who suffer by it to their undeserved fates. Is that fair?

@Azupiru 4 ай бұрын

@@anywallsocket maybe for idiots

@ArvinAsh 4 ай бұрын

I think you make a good point. Scientists in general do potentially sacrifice good ideas in an effort to save Free Will...because after all, without Free Will, I'm not sure any scientific endeavor has meaning.

@anywallsocket 4 ай бұрын

@@ArvinAsh you should not get meaning from a weird idea of freedom or lack there of, how you act is who you are.

@Azupiru 4 ай бұрын

@@ArvinAsh I just think the existential dread of some scientists and religious people is a really bad reason to sacrifice the rest of humanity. Your fear conecessitates with all manner of contemporary politics (all wrong), along with the sort of interreligious and international conflict (all in vain) that will result in nuclear annihilation anyway. Why not take a revolutionary stance against what amounts to an anti-episteme?

@stekons 4 ай бұрын

There is no free will , but there are different wills that should be equally respected ... Or not , doesn't really matter ;)

@Desertphile 4 ай бұрын

If there was an inflatron field that condensed while decaying, the rapid oscillation that created all of the subatomic particles would have correlated all particles before the reheating of the universe. It makes no sense to reject "super determinism" when we observe determinism.

@TheNexusComplex 4 ай бұрын

So...the coolest effect from this video is all the great comments from the masses. It seems humanity may still have a chance and critical thought still exists. Bravo everyone! Oh...and thanks to Arvin and Sabine...excellent video and commentaries.

@kalancag 4 ай бұрын

Thank you for the great video. It was a pleasant surprise to see Sabine commenting here. SD sounds like a discussion of, if there is a God with the entire knowledge of the universe, is he able to predict everything or is he subject to the same probabilistic universe? That's pretty much a philosophical discussion, rather than a scientific one. I believe the most important part of the discussion is, in your own words, "You can make any non-deterministic theory a deterministic one by introducing hidden variables." I think SD will just be a philosophical interpretation seeking the comfort of getting rid of the "spooky action at a distance" and in my opinion, this search for comfort is indeed a side effect of our fear of a non-deterministic universe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but some argue that weather events are also non-deterministic and inherently unpredictable. Similarly, one could counter-argue that there is actually superdeterminism at play, governed by hidden variables that no one is aware of yet. That doesn’t change anything except for providing the comfort and belief that we are not completely helpless in explaining and predicting the weather. Besides, not only the quantum events but any ordinary life event, such as whether I will be the first person on Jupiter, is quite unpredictable. I can still argue that the universe was aligned at the Big Bang in such a way that will make me the first one landing on Jupiter . It is unfalsifiable, yet such a discussion would just be a waste of time until I come up with some of those variables

@cchang2771 Ай бұрын

While I agree with you on your objection of treating superdeterminism as a scientific theory vs. a philosophical one, there is a big error in the argument on weather events. Weather events are governed by nonlinear dynamics that is characterized by chaos, which is fully deterministic but not predictable.

@djayjp 4 ай бұрын

Correction: Actually Copenhagen is agnostic and doesn't attempt to state what is or isn't real prior to observation ("collapse"). Its presumed probabilistic nature is likely the single most frequently misstated feature by physicists about it.

@ArvinAsh 4 ай бұрын

Sure, but Bohr et al essentially tried to avoid the elephant in the room, i.e., issue of what is real, leaving it up to us to interpret what "superposition" means.

@anywallsocket 4 ай бұрын

@@ArvinAsh what is "real" is for philosophers not scientists to ask. science is exclusively in the business of evolving more useful models for predicting empirical data.

@yziib3578 4 ай бұрын

@@anywallsocket That is a definition of the function of science. And many scientist will agree, but many will disagree, including Einstein. A lot of scientist disagree with your philosophy of science.

@gonavygonavy1193 4 ай бұрын

@@yziib3578Einstein kvetched a lot about QM. He was proven wrong in the end.

@yziib3578 4 ай бұрын

@@gonavygonavy1193 Proven? Do you understand that Einstein won his Nobel prize for his paper on QM. He was one of the founding fathers and had a great understanding of QM. He thought that the Copenhagen Interpretation had problems. And at the time most of the other physicist thought that it was perfect. If he was proven wrong, why are you commenting in a video that is about an alternative to the Copenhagen Interpretation?

@DonDee123 4 ай бұрын

I‘m a non-determinist. Why would evolution select for big brains with big prefrontal cortexes (that decide which action to take), when anything is anyways already predetermined? And the probabilistic nature of quantum effects? And bells theorem? To me, superdeterminism is at best a concept like a closed system; philosophically interesting, but not realistically existent.

@lemondemerveilleuxdechrist6515 4 ай бұрын

And what do you think of the Einsteinian eternalist block universe?

@DonDee123 4 ай бұрын

@@lemondemerveilleuxdechrist6515 add a little many-worlds and I like it. All possible outcomes exist in parallel.

@DonDee123 4 ай бұрын

Our free will boils down to being the puppet master who pulls the strings -> Neurons decide when, which muscle to contract. The "free will" is en emergent property of the complex neural network of our brains, that helps animals to optimize their behavior to survive and reproduce in their environment. Compare to ants, a single ant is not that intelligent, but as a colony they can do amazing things.

@Thomas-gk42 4 ай бұрын

@@lemondemerveilleuxdechrist6515 It´s correct.

@PhilMoskowitz 4 ай бұрын

Given the relative simplicity of Superdeterminism (compared to QM) I'd accept it more than I do the Copenhagen Interpretation. I'm also not bothered with the thought of giving up free will, so it's easier for me to accept Superdeterminism.

@nsacockroach4099 4 ай бұрын

Plus, the free will discussion doesn't even have much to do with superdeterminism. Regular determinism already is incompatible with the existance of free will, depending on how one defines the prefix "free" in free will.

@user-je3sk8cj6g 4 ай бұрын

Copenhagen's interpretation is basically witchcraft. Instead of the "God of the gaps", it's the "QM of the gaps". And add some Jedi mind bending reality nonsense to the mix. That's not science, that's superstition.

@aaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa7276 4 ай бұрын

@@user-je3sk8cj6g "Copenhagen-type interpretations hold that quantum descriptions are objective, in that they are independent of physicists' personal beliefs and other arbitrary mental factors." Wow, so superstitious.

@m1haun 4 ай бұрын

Loved to watch this amazing collaboration! ❤

@AzaGameplay 4 ай бұрын

Thanks for the video Mr. Ash! Another good one!

@anxious_robot 4 ай бұрын

She's so negative. I'm glad people like that aren't in charge of the world. We need more dreamers.

@Thomas-gk42 4 ай бұрын

Did we meet before? You are so negative about her, she´s indeed is a dreamer.

@SPACECOWBOY_Hej 4 ай бұрын

Love this collab, Sabine is great people.

@kitsurubami 4 ай бұрын

With no scientific basis, I have a strong desire for all things to be deterministic.

@SRIHARIS-zi1ng 4 ай бұрын

imagine when banks dont give u loan when u r determined to be homeless in future.

@DKonigsbach 4 ай бұрын

It's not your desire. You were predetermined to feel that way. 😁

@cygnustsp 4 ай бұрын

Same here. I think of the old dying dude in the hospital with Tony Soprano. Everything is everything and free will is an illusion.

@famailiaanima 4 ай бұрын

It's a good heuristic, has worked well so far

@custos3249 4 ай бұрын

Almost like the two go hand in hand

@scene2much 4 ай бұрын

Arvin and Sabina? That combo has the power of 9,000 Suns!

@daviddayag 3 ай бұрын

Would love to see more of you collaborating together. ❤

@Comboman70 4 ай бұрын

fantastic topic! Loved Sabine's participation! Cheers

@tristanmills4948 4 ай бұрын

I like superdeterminism. I think people don't like it because its uncomfortable. The issue of measurement is overlooked too readily, probably because its a very difficult one to reason about. I think it's a hangover from classical physics, but is an assumption which cannot be made at quantum levels. The issue is, fundamentals of physics research is not seen as needed when the calculations work so well, you can just 'shut up and calculate'.

@Thomas-gk42 4 ай бұрын

Exactly!

@gonavygonavy1193 4 ай бұрын

fundamentals of physics are non-classical and non-deterministic

@Thomas-gk42 4 ай бұрын

@@gonavygonavy1193 And fairies ride on unicorns...

@tristanmills4948 4 ай бұрын

@@gonavygonavy1193 they are non-classical I agree, but I don't see anything that says they're necessarily non-deterministic. Super-determinism is as valid an interpretation as Copenhagen, or many worlds at this point. I prefer it, but as with all the others, we have no way to show which is the best model.

@Google_Censored_Commenter 4 ай бұрын

Sabine's rebuttal is shockingly bad. She desperately needs to read some Karl Popper if this is her take on falsifiability. The crucial part she's missing is that it isn't simply falsifiability that's desirable in a theory, it's a falsifiable theory *that we have tried to falsify, but failed!* - this crucial distinction is the entire crux of the scientific enterprise. It's a process afterall, not some deductive property. What makes falsifiability valuable is precisely the power that lies in carrying out the falsification attempt. Because once we try to falsify a theory, and fail, then we're closer to being correct than we were before, by definition. Sabine brings up the example of coming up with 20 falsifiable theories, and falsifying them immediately, and concluding falsifiability is overrated, well, duh. Of course when your example is structured that way, it's the conclusion you reach. Look, I can do the same thing with repeatability. "I have come up with 20 different theories to test, and all of them are repeatable - they all fail the tests every time! Look how overrated repeatability is, it's practically worthless!" - is what Sabine would say. Disappointed. But good video from Arvin overall. I never had a clear picture of local hidden variables prior to this video. Though I do feel like there's some explaining to do when it comes to bohmian mechanics, we have countless QM experiments of conditions changing after we've made a measurement, and the particle somehow taking a different path that should be impossible given our prior measurement.

@Thomas-gk42 4 ай бұрын

Did you even listen to her or did you just want to make a self presentation? She´s a leading mathematician and thinker and you are megalomaniac enough to explain her Popper, that´s ridiculous.

@alexanderkohler6439 4 ай бұрын

"The crucial part she's missing is that it isn't simply falsifiability that's desirable in a theory, it's a falsifiable theory that we have tried to falsify, but failed!" I think you should watch her statement again, because she is essentially saying the very same @18:28 : Having a "falsifiable theory" is not enough, because it is easy to come up with one. It is difficult, however, to come up with "good falsifiable theory" (i.e. one we can and have tried to falsify but failed).

@Google_Censored_Commenter 4 ай бұрын

@@Thomas-gk42 How is it ridiculous? Most mathematicians are platonists, they've never read a lick of philosophy. I don't expect Sabine to have read much either. Course I expect her to have heard of Popper, but her presentation made it clear she doesn't understand the value of falsifiability properly.

@Google_Censored_Commenter 4 ай бұрын

@@alexanderkohler6439 You're retrofitting her "good falsifiable theory" statement into what I said because it's convenient, but the likelihood that is what she means, given what she said the few sentences prior to it, is negligble. "good falsifiable theory" can mean anything in the world. Just like "good politics" or "good philosophy" or "good science" is a vague term. But nice try.

@alexanderkohler6439 4 ай бұрын

@@Google_Censored_Commenter I am not retrofitting, because it is convenient, but because it is a fact based on what she started her argument with @18:00 : She argues that the criticism most often comes from physicists which don't keep in mind that falsifiability alone is NOT enough. You need to have some additional properties in order to get a "good falisifiable theory". Yes, she doesn't go into further details by explicitly stating what those additional properties precisely would have to be in order to get the quality mark "good". Instead, she gives an indirect indication by pointing to a ton of "bad falsifiable theories" in particle physics as counterexamples. I think, that is fair enough for a short appearance in someone else's video.

@DanteGabriel-lx9bq 4 ай бұрын

If superdeteminism is real, couldn't emergence save free will? If everything was determined, though, what implications would it have on philosophical matters like free will or ethical questions? That's what interests me the most.

4 ай бұрын

If everything is determined and there's no free will in the universe, there's no will at all, no "knowledge" or discovery, no justification behind science or the scientific method, no justification for epistemology since your starting point defeats the possibility of you "obtaining" "knowledge". Things would just be, and there would be no oughts, everything would be a mechanistic soup of molecules... which makes it silly to even entertain, how is a soup of meaningless molecules ever gonna know or justify that claim logically. People need to start looking into philosophy of science and leaving physics where needs to be.

@anywallsocket 4 ай бұрын

weak emergence means the dynamics of a system of a given level become decoupled with the dynamics of the system at a lower level -- you can imagine it as simply when the higher level dynamics are functions of the *average* of the lower dynamics. strong determinism therefore doesn't lose its consistency, rather it loses its relevance, and indeed, while the universe itself may be taken to 'compute' every nuance and detail of its dynamics, each hierarchical layer distinguishing subsystems needs only 'compute' itself.

@Thomas-gk42 4 ай бұрын

The free will discussion is not connected with QM. How does the copenhagen interpretation allow you t have free will?

@Thomas-gk42 4 ай бұрын

Yes, free will is a feeling like love, an emergent property of our brain so far.

@litsci4690 4 ай бұрын

"Free will"--in the only meaningful sense--is consistent with superdeterminism. Random behavior is neither rational nor moral.

@adb012 4 ай бұрын

Superdeterminism has been my cup of tea since the dawn of time. I just didn't know it until today.

@user-je3sk8cj6g 4 ай бұрын

Me too. That's how I always imagined the Universe to operate ever since I was at least 7 years old, simply because I understood that everything affects and is affected by everything else in the universe. Therefore, the universe MUST be Superdeterministic. I just didn't know that it would have this name.

@Velereonics 4 ай бұрын

I love Sabine because she can always make the argument for every side of the debate. you could ask her to defend any resolution to the measurement problem and she could defend it as ardently as it's most ardent backers

@Dr.HowieFeltersnatch 4 ай бұрын

It is pretty obvious there is at least ONE variable we are not accounting for because we have not discovered it yet. That is what is causing the illusion of superposition.

@gonavygonavy1193 4 ай бұрын

Superposition is not an illusion. It is the way things fundamentally are.

@Dr.HowieFeltersnatch 4 ай бұрын

@@gonavygonavy1193 Our perception of it is an illusion. I am not denying its reality as a concept. The same way gravity is an illusion. It is really just the curvature of space time, not an attractive force.

@gonavygonavy1193 4 ай бұрын

@@Dr.HowieFeltersnatchOur perception of it is real. It's the only thing about it that can be called real. There's nothing underlying superposition. It's not like touching an elephant blindfolded,which implies the existence of an objective elephant independent of our touch. There is no elephant. What you touch is what it is. .

@gonavygonavy1193 4 ай бұрын

non-local hidden variables violate locality, which is backed by special relativity. What scientific theory backs objective reality? Nothing. Only philosophical ones like marxist materialism

@fikretyet 4 ай бұрын

My opinion is, Superdeterminism is the grandchild of the "all-knowing god" in theology. It rejects randomness and describes time as a predetermined emergent block of incidents. While there is still no method that offers a universal, closed-form solution applicable to all scenarios to even three-body problems, considering the whole universe to be strictly emergent without any non-predictable randomness and throwing probability out of the window might be excessively pretentious.

@ocno 4 ай бұрын

Scientific arguments deserve better than to just be called "might be pretentious". Fundamentally, superdeterminism is about rejecting arguments based on measurement independence and seeing if it can lead you to new predictions. The implications about randomness are secondary and frankly not very interesting.

@rynther 4 ай бұрын

As it happens, the concept of sin is based on the idea of free will, determinism precludes the concept of free will, which would be a very critical theological problem. "All knowing god" would have to know the starting position, direction of travel, speed, charge, and spin, of every single elemental particle as it condensed from energy early in the expansion of the universe. That could maybe get you to Deism, the universe is god, but that is not what the churches are selling. The most generous description of "free will" is a cone of potential, looks a bit like a gravity well, it expresses the available freedom of motion (change) for a given object or person. The likelyhood that you will significantly change relative velocity or location much in the next 5 milliseconds is pretty low, where you could be any number of locations a year from now. This is greatly constrained by where you were born, who you were born to, and the circumstances that led up to it. Statistically these factors have an overwhelming impact on wealth and wellbeing, yet it isn't an iron clad indicator for any given individual, the uncertainty principle still applies. (hidden variables) What makes us truly unique is our experiences, which are by nature biased, the lack of free will isn't the same as a lack of agency, but you aren't likely to radically change your outlook on the world without some cause for that change. This dialog is far shorter than the internal dialog that created it, so just in the first step of communication there is significant data loss, we don't think and reason in a vacuum, our world view colors how we see information, and that colored information shapes our world.

@AbsentMinded619 4 ай бұрын

You’re not thinking like a scientist there. God knowing everything about every elemental particle is only a problem if you commit a category error, and assume that a being couldn’t know such things because you couldn’t. No theologian would assume that, nor even the Bible writers. What do you think it means that God is “past our understanding?” If God was aware of all outcomes upon creation of the universe/the Big Bang, then both humans and God can be in different senses responsible for human actions. Allowing for free will while also knowing all outcomes at conception can reconcile the older theological issue of Calvinism and Arminianism. It’s fascinating stuff, if you aren’t just looking to dunk on churches as if you learned about science from Rick and Morty episodes.

@NyteRazor 4 ай бұрын

I agree with Sabine as superdetermined. Let's sing it! 🎶Que sera, sera. 🎶

@mawnkey 4 ай бұрын

Her argument consisted of a hand wave and a "just trust me, bro". Rather unconvincing for me.

@Takyodor2 4 ай бұрын

@@mawnkey non-determinism gang, let's go!

@mawnkey 4 ай бұрын

@@Takyodor2 I'm not necessarily saying that either. I remain thoroughly agnostic on the subject. It's entirely possible that the real answer will forever elude us if the evidence exists on whatever layer of reality exists outside our perception of our universe. Godel's Incompleteness is a thing, and this subject starts to bump up against it being the possible answer.

@Takyodor2 4 ай бұрын

@@mawnkey I don't see a reason to be agnostic. If you accept that some things (properties that can be in a superposition) are truly impossible to predict based on earlier state (truly random), there's a whole lot excuses, hand-waving, "trust me bro" etc which are simply not needed. It's absolutely wild to me that some people prefer "every particle's every interaction, over billions of years, have been pre-programmed to _seem_ like there's randomness and cause/effect" over "some things are truly random". As far as I'm aware, the incompleteness theorem is a pure math thing (as opposed to reality)?

@mawnkey 4 ай бұрын

@@Takyodor2 Set theory very much operates within reality. That's how Godel formulated his theorem. Math certainly appears to be at the root of reality itself or at the very least describe it. The only question in this case is if determinism is axiomatic within our universe or if it is in fact possible to describe it with a mathematical proof. This is why her hand wave annoys me. We simply don't have anywhere near the answer yet.

@NNiSYS 4 ай бұрын

As always Arvin my appreciation, delight and admiration. You are getting better at adding prosody to your narrative. That makes you even cooler amidst this subtle and complex topic! With my "cariño" for you, your fan from Lima, Peru

@natecaplin4374 4 ай бұрын

This is what the excellent show “Devs” was about, which was written and directed by Alex Garland (Civil War, Ex Machina, etc.) It posed the central question that if we live in a deterministic universe and had the tech to measure and compute the universe forwards and backwards in time, could we act in a way contrary to what such a system would predict? Highly recommend watching. Still available on Hulu.

@vhfarrell81 4 ай бұрын

Most interpretations of quantum mechanics seem to be fantasies. Copenhagen, many worlds, many histories, super determinism, ghost branches, etc., etc. Pilot waves seem to make the most sense, but they have all kinds of problems too.

@ArvinAsh 4 ай бұрын

Yep. I don't think Bohmian mechanics makes much sense. The biggest problem I have with it is the idea of a "guiding wave" that somehow pushes a particle around without itself being affected, and how variables can be hidden all over the universe but communicate instantly with a given particle.

@Mentaculus42 4 ай бұрын

@@ArvinAsh A great video! It seems that Bohemian Pilot-Wave Theory as is usually portrayed in videos that compare it to other interpretations is rather problematic and dated. I wish that “someone” would do a video on more modern variants on this “theme” that have a historical connection to Bohemian Mechanics but are inspired by more modern “Hydrodynamic Quantum Analogs” that are talked about at the “International Conference on Advances in PilotWave Theory & HQA” and other places. Love the Yves Couder and John Bush research for inspiration. Tho it seems that the “pilot-wave” is going to require some sort of “new field” that will be a huge departure in thinking.

@alexanderkohler6439 4 ай бұрын

@@ArvinAsh "The biggest problem I have with it is the idea of ... how variables can be hidden all over the universe but communicate instantly with a given particle." Your problem goes away by choosing the labels for the hidden variables appropriately. If you choose the initial positions of the particles as hidden variables, the hidden variables would essentially be a part of the defining inital conditions. Initial conditions don't change and hence don't communicate. They are just inital conditions and thus fixed. Apart from that: I really liked your video. It gave a very good explanation of the subtle differences between determinism and superdeterminism that made it easy to follow for me. Thanks.

@TheNexusComplex 4 ай бұрын

@@ArvinAshExactly put. Approved. 😊

@kurte5006 4 ай бұрын

I would like to see discussions around a pilot wave model where the non-locality between entangled particles is minimized to their last localized interaction so as to preserve the property of locality as much as possible, but still have the non-local behavior we observe between locally prepared entangled particles we see in experiments. Maybe there is something wrong with this approach, but I think it is the simplest and keeps with the intuition that the universe is for all practical purposes local.

@johnmcwilliams379 4 ай бұрын

I think the problem stems from the fact that we’re 4D creatures, part of a 4D block universe, with a perception of 3D objects (with change and motion provided by the unseen 4th dimension), and we have evolved in a manner that allows only ‘seeing’ the past, not the future. So, the future seems mutable and the past immutable… and to us that’s true and real. But from a view outside our virtual 3D reality, looking at 4D space-time, all is not just deterministic, but determined. Could those hidden variables mentioned simply exist as the shape of space-time…as in general relativity’s explanation of gravity?

@getziie 4 ай бұрын

I was thinking about that! Time perception and free will could be illusions like colors or taste. These concepts might not exist outside of human brain

@JodattisLoeschblatt 4 ай бұрын

The question is, whether our universe is a determined shape within this 4D space you speak of, or not. To simplify it by looking at a 2D-creature with the shape of a point that can move and that experiences the z-axis as time: Does the creature look like one continuous line through 3D space, or would we see lines branching into multiple possible positions that could be reached by the creature and the manifestation of the "actual position" at z=currently is found by observing which branch it moves along, as we move up along the z-axis. In that case, the outside observer still wouldn't know what happens in "the future"(higher z-axis points), as the actual shape is "rendering" while we move along the z-axis. If a particle can go left or right, without it making a difference in the energy potential, why must we assume, that a hidden variable must make the decision for it? If it is possible for such a situation to arise, then two branches should be equally likely and only the rendering of the present moment can show, which branch our observation is on. I am not saying, that this is the truth, I am just saying, that it is not clear, that the description as a 4D space would force our experienced reality to be a determined object for an outside observer.

@halfnattyboomer354 4 ай бұрын

@@getziie So we're just characters playing a role and the jokes on us because we actually believe we can determine our fates. But to a true higher dimensional observer watching us on their TV it would be just as absurd as us thinking a prerecorded shows characters can suddenly to something differently. Man maybe Buddhists have it right, just accept everything that happens because it can't unhappen. Just try adapt as best we can with what we currently understand and know because that's all we can do.

@ninabar4359 4 ай бұрын

Without accepting multidimensionality in all of the objects, any theory is dormant.

@johnmcwilliams379 4 ай бұрын

@@JodattisLoeschblatt I see what you’re saying. I was imagining the outside observer as outside of time. As able to see the past, the present, and future as one 4D block (as one might hold a cube in one’s hand). To the observer the block would contain only 4D space. Nothing like time (i.e.: no change, no motion). And, in that way, the probability is entirely a perception (or conception) of the creature (us) from within that 4D block. So, yes, you’re right… it comes down to whether there exists a ‘View’ from the outside from which space and time are fixed and immutable. I suppose that’s really what determines the question of determinism.

@nziom 4 ай бұрын

Nice

@neogeo8267 4 ай бұрын

I have to believe there are hidden variables. We still not be able to calculate it all, but there is a mechanism.

@rnd135173 4 ай бұрын

Not that I'm in any way educated enough to have my opinion valued but I find the idea of superdeterminism quite natural and organic... and somehow comforting. Thanks for the video and for Sabine! Always a pleasure to listen to both of you

@mawnkey 4 ай бұрын

I honestly kind of wonder if superdeterminism will escape disprovability by simply being subject to Gödel's Incompleteness. Hidden variables might exist outside of the system they have an effect in (i.e. outside the universe as we can perceive it) and therefore only be subject to formal proof if we could escape our own universe. We might just be forced to accept their existence as an axiomatic fact once all other alternatives have been exhausted and leave it at that.

@vikkris 4 ай бұрын

If the hidden variable is at higher dimension, we are probably simply looking at the wrong place for clues

@Mentaculus42 4 ай бұрын

Arvin once mentioned “Super-dimensional Branes or Membranes” in a video. So …

@metanoia7217 4 ай бұрын

YUP! You've got it!

@sabbathguy1 4 ай бұрын

Super-determinism and holographic universe were meant for eachother!

@metanoia7217 4 ай бұрын

@sabbathguy1 Super-Determinism and the COMPUTER SIMULATION hypothesis were "meant for each other." The "Holographic" aspect being one interesting (albeit not defining) characteristic of the model I am currently working on... Stay tuned :)

@John_Mack 4 ай бұрын

Adding hidden, unknown variables is like saying "I don't know". This is fine, as we know much less than we don't know.

@lesalmin 4 ай бұрын

We don't know and may never know, but we may still have a theory as to why this is so.

@taylanhoca 4 ай бұрын

2 Distinguished science communicators in one video. What a day🎉

@GugaBFigueiredo 4 ай бұрын

A colab between Arvin and Sabine!!! YES!!!!!

@seabeepirate 4 ай бұрын

I believed in super-determinism long before I knew there was a word for it. Without being able to create or destroy energy I couldn’t imagine any other way for movement to be possible.

@Mrorlgloth 4 ай бұрын

Free will doesn't exist ??

@seabeepirate 4 ай бұрын

@@Mrorlgloth We make choices but none of them are free. It is impossible to remove outside influence from any choice we are forced to make because being forced is applying an outside influence. We have agency but time forces all decisions eventually so we cannot have free will.

@binbots 4 ай бұрын

@anywallsocket 4 ай бұрын

lmao so super determinism or no ?

@binbots 4 ай бұрын

@@anywallsocket lol. In an infinite universe it’s fundamentally unknowable.

@binbots 4 ай бұрын

@@anywallsocket also unknowable because we are inside the universe. A system is only knowable if one is outside of it.

@anywallsocket 4 ай бұрын

@@binbots yes i agree. even if we came up with a set of equations to simulate our own universe, we'd have to run the simulation to find out, and we could never do so completely -- for many reasons, namely we'd forever lack the sufficient resources, and also because we'd have to simulate ourselves simulating ourselves, which would require the simulation to know how it will run before it finishes running, which it cannot do lol.

@anywallsocket 4 ай бұрын

@@binbots note that is true even in a finite universe *

@dziprick3204 4 ай бұрын

We are living in a simulation where the random number generator results in quantum randomness.

@ArvinAsh 4 ай бұрын

Even a random number generator is predictable in theory

@dziprick3204 4 ай бұрын

@@ArvinAsh The ones we use are...

@frun 4 ай бұрын

My opinion is: Nature has to be locally causal. I'd immensely like to know what would happen if superdeterminism is combined with an idea, that all quantum fields are effective.

@cosmopolitan4598 4 ай бұрын

Oh my God, Arvin and Sabine in one video!! It's deterministic very, very interesting video!.

@carlossoares712 4 ай бұрын

i think it makes more sense than conpenhagem interpretation

@litsci4690 4 ай бұрын

Certainly ASSUMES much less . . . Occam's razor.

@juantkastellar2655 4 ай бұрын

I disagree with Sabine and dislike her double standard.

@slowmissouri205 4 ай бұрын

Super-duper-determinism made you read and upvote this comment.

@afriedrich1452 4 ай бұрын

Super-duper-determinism will also cause my 2nd comment, the next one directly after this one, to mysteriously "disappear."

@afriedrich1452 4 ай бұрын

About 15 years ago, I came up with the idea that a totally deterministic universe is compatible with, and, in a sense, necessary for free will - the opposite of what you would expect. Model/Analogy #1: the steering wheel of an automobile would be useless unless there was a deterministic affect on the automobile's wheels when turning the steering wheel. Model/Analogy #2: Conway's "Game of Life" has totally deterministic rules. But, I can determine (steer) the outcome of the game by changing the boundary conditions -- I can add or remove "particles" at any time during the simulation. (Remember, the boundary conditions are not part of the deterministic rules, as they say in PDE class.) Analogously, of course, that means that free will is not part of the universe, but interacts with the universe via a suitable "servo" mechanism, analogous to the power steering assist in an automobile, such as a brain. I suppose it also means that there is something akin to another dimension of time outside of the simulation (universe), that is not the same as the dimension of time inside of the simulation (universe). (I could be wrong, but doesn't LQG also need another dimension of time that is not the same as the time "created" within LQG.)

@sabbathguy1 4 ай бұрын

You got me

@dougaltolan3017 4 ай бұрын

@@sabbathguy1No no no, you got the OP... Super-duper-determinism meant that he *had* to write that post *because* you were going to write your reply.

@hyperduality2838 4 ай бұрын

@viralsheddingzombie5324 4 ай бұрын

YES, I am willing to finance Sabine's research. I can contribute $100.

@dennistucker1153 4 ай бұрын

Love your channel and Sabine's too. VERY good video!

4 ай бұрын

Superderminism is real thing. And very simple to explain if you know about two things. Cellular automaton theory and computability. Simply put, in very simplified explanation, to be able to predict next state of the universe, thus of any particular part of the universe, you would need a machine with say "memory capacity" of size of number of all elements in the universe. Intentionaly using word elements rather than particles, as we currently don't know what are the building blocks or smaller elements are. But this is not in collision with what been said. Thus even every moment or future state of the universe is perfectly predetermined, it is not computable due obvious physical limitations. We simply cannot build a machine of the size of our universe within our universe. Righ?

@hyperduality2838 4 ай бұрын

@gcewing 4 ай бұрын

Precisely, and this is where the "determinism doesn't allow for free will" argument breaks down. We feel as though we have free will because we can't predict our own actions, not because the universe isn't deterministic.

@zukodude487987 4 ай бұрын

When i tell fitness folks that what you put in your mouth is not your choice then they get upset at me.

@WhydoIsuddenlyhaveahandle 4 ай бұрын

😂 As a fitness person this makes me laugh

@BondJFK 4 ай бұрын

That's what she said

@AbsentMinded619 4 ай бұрын

Does it upset you when people get unhappy with their weight and successfully change their diet?

@zukodude487987 4 ай бұрын

@@AbsentMinded619 I don't understand what you are trying to say exactly.

@WideCuriosity 4 ай бұрын

My opinion is that while fascinating to ponder, I suspect I'll be long gone before anything definitive is agreed. I also think that the idea of hidden local variables all over could do with a video going deeper into it. But maybe no one has delved deeper yet.

@Thomas-gk42 4 ай бұрын

Wow, that was really great, since I like both channels so mutch. Wonderful and unbiased explanation and summary on the topic. Thank you both for being here and educating us stupid folks. Sabine is one of the bravest, smartest, most soulful, most honest and trustworhy scientists and thinkers, humanity can count on currently.