"Find the Path" Almost Destroyed This D&D Group - Vox Machina, Ep. 48 | Critical Role Demystified

Vox Machina meets refugees, explores the wilderness, bargains with a god (again), and watch some target practice over breakfast.
CW: Language, ableism
Chapters:
00:00 - Lesson: Using Familiar NPCs to Improve Morale
02:18 - Lesson: Pike Finally Joins the Game…
07:45 - Recap: Finally Talking About the Heavy Stuff
13:04 - Lesson: Sometimes Your Players Can Take the Wheel
15:06 - Lesson: Don’t Punish Players By Taking Spell Slots If You Can Be Clearer About Consequences Instead
20:17 - Lesson: Timing Your Pee Breaks as Dramatically as Possible
23:01 - Lesson: Basilisks vs. Blindsight
24:55 - Lesson: Is “Find the Path” a Bad Spell in Matt Mercer’s Campaigns?
30:48 - Recap: The Mapmaker Returns
33:37 - Lesson: An Impromptu Conversation with Death
40:17 - Outro
Recommended Reading:
The Evolution of the Pre-Stream Vox Machina Adventures | Critical Role Demystified: • The Evolution of the P...
Asking for Skill Checks Over Ability Checks (Whenever Possible): • Asking for Skill Check...
Reading NPC Monologues and Rewarding Absent Players - Vox Machina, Ep. 4 | Critical Role Demystified: • Reading NPC Monologues...
How to Train Yourself to Watch the Clock During D&D: • How to Train Yourself ...
Zee Bashew: (animated) D&D 5E a spell that can ruin an entire playstyle: • (animated) D&D 5E a sp...
How Matt Describes Scrying Scenes - Vox Machina Ep. 10 | Critical Role Demystified
• How Matt Describes Scr...
How to PERFECTLY Deny a D&D Mission In-Character - Vox Machina, Ep. 47 | Critical Role Demystified: • How to PERFECTLY Deny ...
You can watch the full episode here:
Episode 48 - Into the Frostweald
• Into the Frostweald | ...
Timecodes:
Breakfast Target Practice: 1:38:46 - 1:44:26
#dnd #dungeonsanddragons #ttrpg #rpg
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[@SupergeekMike]

What is your favorite subplot from this section of the campaign? Grog and Craven Edge, or Vax and the Raven Queen? (Try to avoid spoilers, if possible!)

[@tonysladky8925]

Wait. Craven Edge is spelled like the actual word "craven"? I know the word, and I know how it's actually spelled, and have probably used it an above average number of times, being a fan of fantasy and TTRPGs and all. But in my mind, for absolutely no reason, the sword's name is ALWAYS spelled with a "K", like the Spider-Man villain.

[@SupergeekMike]

@@tonysladky8925 I spell it with a "K" almost EVERY time I talk about the sword, and then I have to correct it lol. But yes, it's with a "C."

[@therealroadie5623]

Thats tough to decide grog talking to craven edge had me on the edge of my seat and Vax and the raven queen had me under a table. (spoiler free)

[@TheLordofMetroids]

Grog and Craven Edge and how Travis and Matt manage to kind of tie it into Grog's own insecurities and relationships and mostly concluding in episode 55 is one of my favorite arc's in the whole campaign.

[@MegaBendex]

It's gotta be Craven Edge. One reason I love the arc so much is how much of a roleplaying prompt that sword is for Travis. We've seen the full card and nowhere on that card does it force Grog to employ such brutality as when he is wielding it, or become so overly enamoured with violence, that's just something he noticeably plays up while he's attuned to it. It's something I'd love to emulate as a player and a secret hope of mine as a DM. You *could* craft your cursed item such that it incentivises it's terrible cost to be paid, but that's really hard! Incidentally, Craven Edge also does that a little on Grog when Travis skips the rest later to keep the benefits. I wouldn't say that'd work on everyone, but he's already into the dark, cursed item affecting his judgement, so he rolls with it! It's wonderful.

[@an8strengthkobold360]

To quote the monster manual: "Nobody carves statues of soilders screaming in agony"

[@an8strengthkobold360]

This is paraphrasing

[@TheLordofMetroids]

I'm going to have one evil mage do this at some point in one of my campaigns, just because of this comment. lol

[@gmanbo]

​​​@@TheLordofMetroids Evil mage could be fun... But a bit more variety could also be appreciated. An earth elemental who copies the last moments of creatures it has seen in battle as a memorial. In exacting and graphic detail. A fey prankster that delights in the reactions to the stony faces that he has created. Even better when he animates them slightly. This fey lives for the jump scare.... Also they see it as a massive compliment if someone attempteds to heal the "petrified bodies" ( Fun quest hook here..... The fey had to see this type of reaction play out some where...) What would be slightly horrific is a lair of a demon somewhere in the abyss who uses a flesh to stone spell. In reverse. So stone to flesh. Breathing life into stone he carves. Problem is the cave is littered with broken pieces of creations he feels miss the mark...... The demon prince of the layer the artist resides on has a quota he must fill.... So in frustration the artist takes these fragments and combines the most horrifying vistages..... Then grants them the abyssal mockery of life. ( Gibbing mouther type mostly low lvl body horror stuff) The artists master pieces though... They usually after being granted life typically at least the lvl of a succubus or reaching for a demon general lvl of fiend. Then after the abyssal artist. Is the far realm warlock patron. Who's request is a semi permanent recording of the death/ shocked look of the warlocks kills. It likes to look at them. Takes the statues back to a garden somewhere in the far realm..... ..... It sometimes examines them and discusses the incidents in detail with the warlock..... As they dream.... Better expressions at times grant spell power bonuses...... After a warlock dies in his service.... This entity puts the collection on display in a remote part of the material plane.

[@zetsubou1v1]

I think it would actually make sense for demons or anyone of dark exaltation or damnation to make or commission statues of horror. I mean, the catholic church used gargoyles as a ward against evil and disease on notre dame and other sites that became its own source of fear and danger:that's a theoretically lawful good organization. I don't know if specifically horrified statues are common, but i think it can be more than magic, curses and monsters.

[@Lena-fc9ce]

​@@zetsubou1v1 theres absolutely statues that look horrified! most of the ones i know about are mythological subjects, like a very famous one of laocoön and his sons being attacked by serpents, or some statues of prometheus being attacked by the eagle that eats his liver. theres also several statues showing the abduction or pursuit of various female mythical figures (daphne, persephone) by male gods and they usually dont look very happy

[@Leandro_Montibeler]

The thing about Matt warning Marisha about wasting a spell is that we love to talk about how DnD takes place in our imaginations and whatever... BUT the only player that can see the world is the DM. Only his vision of the world impacts the outcome of players decisions. If I imagine my character as completely invisible, but the DM sees "invisible" as a transparent shimmering, the guards will see me. Only his vision of the shared world affects how the guards react. We, DMs, have to always keep that in mind.

[@danielbeshers1689]

This was going to be my comment as well. I think it's one of Matt's major weaknesses in Campaign 1, neglecting to clarify instead of simply saying "You try and it fails." What is the first rule of improv?

[@dolphin64575]

Jumping ahead in the campaign to the "Keyfish incident", so much rides on the DM accurately describing their vision of the world to the players.

[@Birthday888]

​​​@@dolphin64575 To be fair, the Keyfish incident was more because Marisha didn't understand how physics work (landing in water would've still killed someone diving at terminal velocity) and completely forgot she could fly XD But yeah, Matt not being as active when describing why failure happens and not utilizing failing forwards as much was definitely one of his weaknesses. As iconic as it was, if the Door Incident during the Briarwood arc happened with less entertaining players, it would've been a slog to go through.

[@wolfox7776]

"Most of us don;t have a Sam Riegel at our table." This would be a double edged sword. On the one hand, you have one of the best failing forward players ever. On the other... You know he is gonna try something with a huge drink at some point.

[@abrilvonbunny6205]

Or break your heart beyond repair

[@fordprefect5967]

We call that a win-win

[@dusktomidnight7207]

as someone who did not watch cr1 but knew about all the keyleth hate seeing all the "terrible things Marisha did" are all like normal things a player would do

[@Butterzzzz]

It really is crazy, I’ve wondered if I never understood it because I was introduced to keyleth from the TV show, and she is honestly my favorite character, her moments in the show are amazing, and it’s always felt odd hearing about the hate

[@aubreyhuff46]

​@@ButterzzzzBased on the comments I see, a lot of it is her "feel good" speeches where she tries to be the good side of the party. They see her as annoying and fun hating

[@MementoMorrigan]

It was moments like these that make me feel really bad for Marisha during C1. 5e druids are probably the most difficult class to play as a beginner player, and with less than 50 episodes into the new system, Marisha is having to juggle all the spells and wildshape options of a high level moon druid. I don't blame her for any of this, nor do I blame Matt for the miscommunication. Dude had to make a call that would make sense for the story, as well as knowing that the chat would crucify him if he made a ruling that they didn't like. It reeks of two people getting stuck in an unfortunate situation, and I'm glad that Marisha has gotten more used to high level spellcasting and Matt grew more comfortable playing with the Rule Of Cool and bending things for the sake of enjoyment

[@frodrickfronkenstien582]

I know exactly what you mean, I was a part of a group that was playing an alien's campaign. The first session I joined I had to wait 3 hours to play because they couldn't open a door. And the dm did nothing to speed this along. I got really drunk that night waiting for them.

[@mb2001]

Oh, geez, that sounds awfully boring.

[@frodrickfronkenstien582]

So incredibly boring, but when I finally got to play I was 3/4 into a pint and having a good time. I'm now a DM and don't drink during games, but I don't stop players as long as they keep it together.

[@BearWith_You]

My first ever time playing (2e with some homebrew I believe), my character literally just showed up in the middle of their quest. My best friend immediately cast silence on me so all I got to do for a bit is watch. Then was put to sleep. Then died. I rolled absolutely no dice that day and I question how I decided to even continue playing

[@floofyboi2520]

​@@BearWith_You with a best friend like that you don't need enemies

[@BearWith_You]

@@floofyboi2520 It was an evil campaign so it was a bit expected. But also he didn't want me saying anything as he proceeds to basically betray the party and ensure Im on his side if we're at each others throats. Which I agreed. Hes the reason I fell asleep but not the one who actually killed me

[@brunofant3562]

THANK YOU FOR SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON SCANLAN TALKING TO PIKE ABOUT CRAVEN EDGE !! It's always unreasonably bugged me that everyone acts so "outraged" about it where he had clearly said he would before. Scanlan is a lot of things but he's always been very straightforward with Grog.

[@fakjbf3129]

I think what Matt should have done is narrated them following the path of the spell and how it takes them around some treacherous terrain and bypasses potential dangers like another basilisk lair. These things didn’t exist before Keyleth cast the spell but the players don’t know that and it gives the illusion that the spell helped them.

[@lethalsandwhich]

I think thats really interesting, but not how the spell works RAW. It shows you the shortest path to a specific place you have been. A whole mountain range is quite vast and also in view. He was perfectly justified by telling the player "that really isnt the use of the spell". The player can then never prepare Find the Path again, because it legitimately has no use. That being said, having Find the Path just find a safe path for a 6th level slot would be an easy fix to the spell.

[@SingularityOrbit]

The trouble was more about his somewhat curt phrasing than his message. In the first instance it would have been simple to just say, "Right now you only know that you're heading toward the mountains you can see. You'll probably need to learn more about the area before you can know a question this spell can answer." In the later case he could have said, "As soon as you cast the spell, you get the feeling of information entering your brain that wasn't there before. It isn't dramatic at the moment because you're currently looking at a light that illuminates your destination. However, there's more to it than that. You feel a sense of deja vu now, as the spell fills in the gaps. You feel like, once you start walking up the path, you're going to begin to recognize that path as if you'd walked it before. You won't even need that light to guide you so long as the spell guides you." It's about signifying the effect of the spell and making its power known. Matt might not have had any challenges in mind going up the mountain path, but the party didn't know that. Simply describing the magical effect of a spell, even when it isn't all that valuable in the present circumstance, can mean a lot to the player who cast it. I've always admired how Matt manages to make fairly meaningless magics feel valuable through his descriptions. This was just an off night, for both Matt and Marisha. The good thing is that an off night can result in teachable moments.

[@chad8767]

That is exactly how I would have DMed it, "It leads you behind an outcropping and you see a narrow path that winds up, and upon reaching your destination you look back and see an icy outcropping looking like it would fall under any disturbance. You see a band of Orcs in a hidden camp, sharpening their swords" or something like that. Even if you didn't have planned obstacles, make them up to have the players think they avoided some bad stuff. And heck, maybe with a bad roll on climbing the mountain they you would have introduced one of those problems.

[@fakjbf3129]

@@lethalsandwhich He could also have had it reveal a secret pathway instead of avoiding dangers. For example maybe the spell guides them around the mountain in what looks like the wrong direction but actually there’s a small cave covered by vines and inside is a staircase that leads to the point the obelisk had shown. Then he could describe the characters looking down and seeing a thin winding path and Matt would say “Congrats, if you’d tried to just climb the mountain you would have to make various athletic checks”. That way you are following how the spell works RAW while still rewarding a player for using up their resources.

[@lethalsandwhich]

@fakjbf3129 totally valid. The only reason I bring up RAW is because Matt was on his "I gotta play it exactly to the letter" phase of public DMing. That being said, I enjoy player creativity and using what might not be an optimal spell, but a practical spell. The shortest path could 100% be a previously hidden one.

[@TheLordofMetroids]

I feel like Find The Path is one of those spells that really has a legacy in D&D but has mostly gone out of style as TTRPG's have evolved. It's a spell that has existed sense the beginning of D&D and hasn't changed with the times. When your entire campaign or arc is delving through a 30 floor dungeon, with multiple entrances and exits, its a vital spell. When you are crossing the wilderness to hit a mostly linear Dungun at the end... it doesn't do what you might think it does.

[@SingularityOrbit]

The primary use of the spell seems to be eliminating the challenge of mazes and illusion-disguised paths. It suggests that the game designers thought 11th level characters were past the point of having trouble with such trifling problems. Which simultaneously eliminates some challenges that could be interesting at any level (some tables love mazes, puzzle-based exploration, and working out the tricks to an illusion-defended dungeon), and also proves that the PHB ranger's Natural Explorer feature (overland travel is all but effortless in terrain the ranger's comfortable traversing) was fully intentional -- whether it's a good idea or not is totally debatable.

[@jonathanhibberd9983]

I also think that expectations of players have changed too. A spell like this in the 70s, sure, it's just a line on a map that you can see in real life. But now? You're telling me that magic can't do what my phone can? I can tell my phone "take me here", and it knows where "here" is, even if I've never been there; knows not just the shortest route, but the best route to avoid traffic, road construction, etc.; and can readjust real time if I change direction, or traffic conditions change. Magic - especially magic fueled by a divine entity - should be able to give you that much information.

[@johnnye87]

I always thought Matt was being harsh with that "the spell just points at the beacon I already mentioned, you big dummy" (slightly paraphrased). Sure, you can see a beacon up in the mountains, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can clearly make out "the shortest and most direct route" through the foothills up to that beacon. It's her second attempt to use a brand new spell, just let it be trivially useful for navigation.

[@MorningDusk7734]

One of the best tools I can think of for a DM when there's confusion on what a player is trying to accomplish by casting something is asking "what do you hope is the outcome of casting X?" This allows you a better understanding of both what the player wants as an outcome to the situation, and how they believe the spell's function will get them there. From there, you can either correct them on how that spell doesn't have the property they were seeking, or you can try to tailor the spell (potentially using rule of cool) to achieve the desired outcome, potentially using an Arcana roll if it's a particularly difficult or unusual way to use a spell.

[@Mysteri0usChannel]

I once made a player wait 1 hour before introducing her to the party, too, but that I had discussed with her previously, and we had actually planned that, because she had never played before DnD and wanted to watch the others play for a while so she could learn. It also allowed for me to give her the chance to shine, as she was introduced in the party's second encounter just barely after the party's Cleric was downed (I had three goblins crit, accidentally). So her Paladin was quite literally coming to the rescue as a knight in shining armor!

[@itap8880]

Sounds cool... Wait, did you down the cleric ON PURPOSE!?

[@tay-dor7147]

As a DM, I always assume the characters would understand how their spells work. So if one of my players wants to use a spell that wouldn't apply to a situation, provide an advantage, or are trying to use it in a way that isn't possible based on the spell description, I let them know before they cast it.

[@johnnye87]

On the one hand, I can see an argument for letting a character screw up their FIRST casting of a spell (if you assume that learning a new spell doesn't include practicing casting it...), but I think I'd only do that with quite a confident player. I've noticed a couple of times that Marisha cast a new spell at the wrong moment and seemed to get really discouraged from ever using it again. For example it feels like it took her a long time to get over the idea that Wind Walk was just generally a bad spell, instead of being a good travel spell with some heavy drawbacks specifically to deter you from trying to use it for combat advantage the way she did.

[@tay-dor7147]

@@johnnye87 Makes sense.

[@screamingopossum7809]

I've once had to the pull the "That's not how the spell works...please read it out loud." and then my player will have their "OH....that makes it infinitely garbage/better" moment. True Strike was the spell. I let them change the cantrip out immediately.

[@Skip6235]

I originally watched C1 when they were well into C2. I think with the hindsight of all of the Marisha drama from C1, watching stuff like the “find the path” discussion feels like Matt overcorrecting to being harsh on Marisha to avoid the accusations of “DM’s girlfriend”. I don’t think it was conscious, but I think it’s impossible not to let all of the negative comments get to you after a while, especially since they were relatively new to the whole having an audience thing, and I think back then the haters were a much larger percentage of the viewers, unfortunately. I’m glad that now a days, even though C3 isn’t exactly a fan favorite, the love for Laudna is pretty universal. Marisha is a victim of her own incredible acting!

[@lukerabon7925]

Find the Path is one of those spells that's on the Cleric and Druid spell lists for a reason. Its actual use case is narrow, so it has to go on the list for spellcasters who never have to pick what spells they know. And Bard for some reason

[@nvfury13]

Clerics are preparation casters…the spells they have access to each day are selected when praying at the beginning of the day, just as a Wizard needs to prepare/memorize their spells.

[@user-zl7sv6go3p]

​@@nvfury13a wizard needs to have a spell in their spell book though in order to prepare it, and you only add two spells to your spell book per level outside of transcribing from scroll s/other spell books. Clerics on the other hand can prepare any spell from the cleric spell list (obviously it needs to be the appropriate level)

[@nvfury13]

@@user-zl7sv6go3p Any spell their god(/goddess) allows them to use, yes. However, the number of spells a Wizard knows is limited by level *and Int bonus.* Finding a spell book with spells you don’t have scribed in your personal one, if you have more “spells known” available, means you know those as well now.

[@nickbrown638]

I was playing a game where we traveled to the feywild and in order to progress, we needed to follow the instructions of a riddle, given to us by a fey villain. The riddle went as such: “Follow the Light and you will find your intention carries weight.” “Bide the time, watch the skies and you shall not be late.” So of course, we decide to have our moon druid cast “Find the Path.” But remember that first line; “YOUR intention”. Because we were letting the spell guide us, the spell basically led us in a circle. It was actually a funny gotcha, and I don’t blame the dm for rewarding our choice with failure.

[@daniellewasdelayed8921]

13:40 It's been a very long time since I last saw (or at least noticed) Liam doing his "laugh so hard that he has to bend backwards out of frame" manuever and it's bringing me so much joy

[@SummerOtaku]

It’s so ironic since I’m pretty sure Find the path was the spell attributed to finding the sunken tomb by Zahra in the vox Machina cartoon.

[@uli11]

I think that creative license could come into play for these sorts of situations. All he has to say is 'this spell is showing you a path forward that loops and seems to intentionally go around certain areas or patches. You get a sense that you are being shown a way forward that avoids major threats and dangers". BOOM- spell feels effective, still does the same thing, and given the basilisks they encountered, give a sense of threat mitigation thus giving a feeling of value to the team.

[@uli11]

Yes find the path says 'shortest and most direct', but you could rationalize it that the basilisks present a 'sinkhole' or 'obstacle' so they would slow and obstruct the path. Obviously its not perfect, but it would be better than what they got.

[@ChileSpiceNinja]

Unfortunately the shortest and most direct way could be a path literally barely half a person because it would shave 1 second off the time if you were to side shuffle your way at half speed rather than running around a pit, so raw it would still take you through the basilisks, since they are burrowed and not on the path

[@uli11]

@@ChileSpiceNinja again- its why I said creative license. It comes down to the age old debate RAW vs Player experience. In this case, handwaving RAW and creating a post hoc justification for the spell to work this way would have been the correct move (and in fact is a great example as to why I fundamentally disagree with RAW and think games that rely heavily on RAW are just worse).

[@JaxiPaxified]

@@uli11 Yeah, make the players feel cool, it's so important. If they find some kind of "loophole" or over powered solution, just tell them it was cool once, but you'd like them to try other solutions in the future.

[@uli11]

@@JaxiPaxified and be generous if they are struggling. Marisha has felt deflated SO often by this point, that I think they can afford to be a bit generous. Especially when the generosity is more narrative than gameplay affecting.

[@felixrivera895]

Find the path Says it doesn't pick the safest route, just the most direct route. I think that's Dumb. Let the spell be a proper gps. Its a 6th level divination.

[@cameroncrouch5843]

Something I wish people would talk about more is how each player reacts while party members are having their own scenes. Like how Marisha and Travis give it all their attention, Laura and Sam are looking ahead while listening, reviewing notes, and Talesin is just vibing.

[@TheePIB]

This interaction around "Find the Path" seems like an inversion of metagaming, in a positive way. The character of Keyleth, one assumes, would probably have an intuitive sense for how a spell would work-and it is arguable that most spell casters, with Sorcerers as a notable potential exception, would have intimate knowledge of how they work. The players, on the other hand, may not, or may have only a vague notion of what it would do. Instead of the player knowing things their character won't, here the character knows something the player doesn't-and it's the DM who would need to intervene, at least to the extent of reinforcing the character's, rather than the player's, perspective.

[@TheDragonOfWhi]

Actually sorcerers would have and should have the most intuitive idea of how magic works because they are magic. They don't cast spells from a book, only learning what was explained to them; they innately cast spells according to the needs they have. A sorcerer knows exactly what magic does.

[@TheePIB]

@@TheDragonOfWhi Possibly; an alternative take (and the one I subscribe to) is that Sorcerers gain zero insight into how their magic works, it just appears. It would be like a teenager suddenly having access to a car, out of the blue and with no-one to train them-without some kind of instruction, they're basically just experimenting until they figure it out. Contrast that with a school-trained mage, who has built up a knowledge of magic like a chemist has built up a knowledge of science, with direct, hands-on access to the very basic tools and labs in which to practice their book learning, and then later expand on it. There's a reason why Sorcerers don't invent new spells, just to reinforce that. Warlocks, similarly, would have a deep, detailed knowledge of their magic because their patron makes it so. Clerics and Paladins receive divine guidance, not just in having access to the spells but in the knowledge of how they work and how to adapt them. Druids could be more like Sorcerers in this view, but would probably have a better sense owing to their divine-adjacent access; a druid might have to experiment on their own a bit, but their magical source almost certainly infuses them with at least guidance, if not outright training. With that, virtually any interpretation is valid, as long as everyone at the table agrees and it is fun for all. You are not wrong, not at all. I just see it differently, and this is why.

[@TheDragonOfWhi]

@@TheePIB expect its not. Sorcerers are explained to be innate fonts of magic with and understand of such. They don't cast 'wizard MacGees fire balls they will a fireball into existence because that is what they want and know how to do so on an intuitive level. Wizards have to spend years to reach a level of magical understanding, brute forcing their way into the arcane to do and know what a sorcerer knows innately.

[@TheePIB]

@@TheDragonOfWhi again, that's your take on it, and you can certainly view it that way. The way I see it, there's a reason why it's "Mordenkainen's Arcane Seal"-that _Wizard_ invented a new spell (and dozens of others) by taking a massive knowledge base and expanding it, knowing very well what kinds of things are possible, or are probably impossible, with magic; just like a chemical engineer takes a massive base of knowledge about how atoms, electron clouds, molecules, etc. work, and knows very well what kinds of things should be possible, or are probably impossible, to do with chemistry. The Sorcerer casts the same fireball that a Wizard does, not a different spell. The Wizard, however, can read a few lines in his or her spell book and (after the long rest) cast Lightning Bolt instead-something that the Sorcerer can't do. They don't have any innate understanding of magic, just an innate understanding of a couple of spells, whereas the wizard actually understands the basic foundations of magic, and can learn to manipulate it to their own ends. All the Sorcerer is doing is getting an innate sense for how to put Blight on an opponent, and via experimentation ( _vis a vis_ metamagic), how to either cast it faster (quicken), make it go farther (distant), or what have you. If the Sorcerer _truly_ understood the basic building blocks of magic like a Wizard does, they would have the same (essentially) unlimited spell selection. They don't, and the reason they don't is because they don't have any insight into how magic itself works, only how to manifest a specific magical effect (like, say, Blight).

[@claudiamcfie1265]

Regarding when Matt telegraphs the consequences of spells: I'm currently early C2, and I've noticed a few times where Liam's said "Caleb would have known thats how that spell works" and Matt's agreed the spell was never cast. Which watching this seems to be a shift.

[@SupergeekMike]

I definitely think, at this point in the campaign, Matt was simultaneously recovering from the Tiberius era (where he did need to crack down on all the “never mind, I wouldn’t cast that spell” backtracking) and trying to make it clear he didn’t give Marisha special treatment in his games (because of all the “GM’s girlfriend” accusations of favoritism). Which is sad, because not only did this fail to curb the criticism (I STILL see “preferential treatment” accusations in my comments about these episodes), but whenever he did get strict or get into a debate with her, it accidentally gave permission to the Keyleth haters to crack down on Marisha even more. It was such a mess. Thankfully, Matt seems to have eased up on those tendencies a lot.

[@MrJCTrix]

Caleb also had the feat - Keen Mind - giving him really good recall, alot of times when Liam has forgotten something he would ask Matt about it saying "I may not remember, but Caleb would" so it may also be related to that

[@ForeverDegenerate]

@@SupergeekMike Hopefully baby doesn't get in the way of you getting to C2 Analyses because there's a moment early on, like Episode 1 or 2, where Matt kinda pissed me off because I felt he completely screwed over Marisha for no reason and I'm hoping you bring it up or, at the very least, I'd get the opportunity to speak about it in a proper discussion.

[@0saintclark0]

​@@ForeverDegenerateeven if he does get to that point that's literally years away given how much of C1 is left so, want to bring it up here and we can discuss it instead?

[@randomperson8375]

@@ForeverDegenerate what moment is that exactly? Been a long time since I watched Campaign 2 but interested to hear your thoughts

[@Boundwithflame23]

I was amused by you saying they treestrode when Treestride is a completely different spell from Teleport Via Plants (at least in terms of only the caster being able to travel between trees as opposed to everyone) because Marisha/Kiki would get them flip flopped all the time and if I recall they eventually they just kinda ran with it because it was easier and Matt knew what spell was meant. I think Marisha or someone jokingly called it “Tree Uber” at one point. XD Also means I can make this reference from the VM Hamilton parody: “Next episode we Treestrode to Whitestone” Also also I spied a doggo co-host near the end of the video ☺️

[@skitsophrenic9476]

"Most of us don't have a Sam Reigel at our table." Sir, I have 6 of them.

[@zippomage]

*gasp* *whisper* he speaks of the counsel *whisper*

[@SingularityOrbit]

Clones! So that's where Sam's hairbrush went!

[@chrisbolland5634]

Really loving this series, it's helping me enjoy my favorite DND campaign to watch, and also learn more about how to deal with situations as players. All around wonderful for someone who doesn't have enough time to watch the full series. My mom's also been getting into DND lately and has been finding your videos helpful too. Cheers!

[@saraphys5555]

26:20 On the subject here... We could excuse Marisha and Matt being "out of sync" on the spell, because this (I think) was the first time she had really used it in the campaign since being live streamed... In 3.5 & Pathfinder, the spell that Marisha was probably more familiar with of this similar name, actually kinda does what she was hoping for from the outcome; but the 5E version stripped away alot of the usefulness, and so you end up with this... This is Matt having spent alot of time familiarising himself with the "new" system; and Marisha not, and still sometimes thinking in "3.5/Pathfinder" terms...

[@ForeverDegenerate]

And the people that complained about and ridiculed Marisha didn't care. You know how I know this? Because she did this very thing in Whitestone and people lambasted her for it. She tried to use "Heat Metal" to add Fire Damage to Vax's Dagger... because that's how the spell works in Pathfinder. However, in 5E... not so much. As Matt would tell her, "That's not how the spell works." Also, in this moment, Matt, unintentionally, threw Marisha under the bus and she would, really, never recover from it when he followed that up with, "It's not my job to read your spells. That's YOUR job." I'm paraphrasing, of course, as I don't remember the exact quote, but that's basically what he said. So, really, while it's toxic as Hell, I can't really complain about fans complaining that Marisha never reads her spells and doesn't know what they do because Matt, literally, called her out on it live on stream. The problem is that people who complain about Marisha only remember the fact that she didn't read the spells in 5E before jumping in to the game, but forget or ignore the fact that Critical Role had been playing Pathfinder for, like, 2 years or so prior to starting the live stream and 5E. While you and I can look at the context and easily forgive, the truth of the matter is that those who complained and continue to complain cannot because they simply do not care about the reason behind the mistake, only that the mistake was made and that the mistake, in their eyes, is one that is is the mark of a "shit player." And the sad irony? Marisha isn't the only one that made that mistake. They all did since, Tal aside, this was their first TTPRG. So all of them had problems adjusting to 5E after having played Pathfinder for 2 years. But attention was drawn to Marisha's mistakes and, thus, she was made an example of.

[@screamingopossum7809]

@@ForeverDegenerate The issue is that the habit continues in later campaigns as well. Granted, now she's a whole lot better at it due to her having playing in the system for years at this point and having played multiple different characters in various one shots and campaigns, it still boils down to a "Know what your abilities do". Marisha was also the community's punching bag for a majority of Campaign 1 and some of Campaign 2 before she was able to be comfortable with Beau. With her campaign 3 character she's grown into herself as a RPer and has made a universally beloved character. Keyleth was not universally loved, and still isn't. Also at this point (according to her IMDB) she wasn't that well known as a Voice Actor compared to the others. Her big break came in 2015, the same year Campaign 1 started. Before then it was either uncredited roles, side characters or things that no one watched. So people were bullying the new guy on the block.

[@JeffreyMcLain]

Why I always enjoy your stuff. Fun - focus on the fun part. So dumb, so simple, so obvious, but I really do appreciate pulling back to that point as often as I've heard you do that. Really cool man. Thanks for the content.

[@dolphin64575]

Re: Find a Path, I probably would have said it lets the party forge ahead more quickly and confidently, since finding that exact point when they got closer would have been tricky, if Keyleth hadn't cast the spell. (Trying to go in a straight line through a forest to an exact point you saw from far away is tricky.) It may make Vex feel a little less useful, but I feel it leans into what the spell is trying to do.

[@TheLordofMetroids]

Hay going back to older episodes to look something up, made me realize, you are doing all of this without the aid of Flando. His comments are C2 on. Respect.

[@SupergeekMike]

Lol well it does help that there are other folks also making time code comments in this campaign. But I don’t go off timecodes for these episodes - I just watch the episode through and take notes :)

[@TheLordofMetroids]

@@SupergeekMike Fair enough, but I imagine it would be easer with the time codes to look back at stuff.

[@OneTrueBelmont]

We're still in the middle of our group's CoS campaign and at a level up, my DM allowed me to trade out a cantrip for something else because she said "When you were picking spells, I should have told you that this one wouldn't really work in this setting." So I would agree that certain games/scenarios aren't going to work with certain spells and if you have that idea as a DM, maybe point that out.

[@Xorrin]

Can i ask what cantrip are you talking about? just a curiosity

[@OneTrueBelmont]

@@Xorrin Poison Spray, I think, because a lot of monsters in this campaign are immune. It would be perfectly fine in a different campaign but not great here.

[@Ansible1000]

Condolences on your loss, Mike.

[@krautnapped]

Regarding the "Sometimes Let Players Take the Wheel" segment: I love it when my players take the wheel and make a situation or detail more real. Having player PBtA (Powered By the Apocolypse) games, they encourage the DM to let the players fill in gaps. I've brought this in anytime that I want players to feel more invested in the world. For instance, maybe a Netrunner in a CPR (CyberPunk Red) game leads us to a small bar they know where other 'runners congregate. I let them go into the details of the bar, the bartender, and any other details that they see in the location they know. It's a great way to give players agency and (selfishly) allows me to take a break and think while they do some of the DM work. I feel like it's a really cool win-win for most tables, if your players are down for it.

[@Stephen-Fox]

Absolutely, I love PbtA for that reason. One of my favourite things about the last time I ran Escape from Dinosaur Island was Binny Boy, a female triceratops with a wheelie bin stuck on her horns, who became a recurring aspect of the game, created by the players during one of the setup questions when answering... I think to describe their first encounter with a dinosaur. Then she fit in with the location they chose to start in, and since she was alive and well when they reached the climax it felt right to use her in the final scene.

[@dolphin64575]

Big props to that research on how the party has gotten to and from their adventures! 😂 And I totally agree with you about bringing in characters as soon as possible. The point of playing rpgs is TO PLAY them, so let that player roll dice as soon as you can (or they may start stacking them).

[@tomjordan1170]

Found your discussion on Matt's telegraphing potential outcomes of actions really interesting - I do feel that as CR has grown, and both it and he have come to be seen as ambassadors for DnD as a game, he has become much more conscious to following RAW, and sometimes that can detract from the fun for everyone involved. Being diplomatic can go a long way as a DM.

[@joe6640]

These videos are very good. Thanks for making them!

[@MackeyD3]

A new episode of my favourite series on youtube!

[@Antomausk]

13:34 Not the Brave’s scream lmao

[@mihamelavc9870]

Another banger from Mike

[@dittmar104]

Find the path is basically what you use when your navigator dies while at sea. It doesn’t give you a safe path but works like a minecraft compass. You ask it to point to spawn and it does.

[@PVS3]

Ironically, I think this is a case of MATT not reading the spell. Look at the second paragraph. He could have just narrated that: "As your magic takes hold, you feel the location of that light affix itself in your mind it is... 5220 meters away, and you know you'll have no problem keeping your bearing even if your route is obscured by trees or obstacles. You feel the pull of the spell guiding you in that direction. Because there is no choice in front of you *right now*, the spell is just guiding you directly towards your goal. You know that when the road branches you'll be able to use your continued concentration on this spell to divine the easiest option." Gives an obvious positive reward (No problem keeping track of an innocuous spot on a distant hill) and shows what the ongoing effect will be (New information when you actually need it)

[@yiklongtay6029]

I would be open to a 5.5e playtest change where find the path is a lower level spell but with a smaller scope of effectiveness so that the stress of wasting a high level spell is lower. I could see a smaller scale spell be useful for navigating trapped areas and could even codify adding a 1d4 to any dex checks and saves in that durations. This would translate to dex traps and even stealthing through enemies

[@Cassapphic]

The basilisk blindsight debate felt really silly watching this for the first time recently. I felt like even if there was a riles misunderstanding, not attacking with disadvantage very much seems rules as intended even if its yet another dumb interaction in 5e that isn't RAW.

[@lelpokemon98]

It could also just be that "Find the path" is a bad worded and useless spell. Firstly it lets you know the MOST DIRECT, not safest, to a location you are "FAMILIAR WITH" which is a very broad statement, and lets this spell be up to DM interpretation, familiar as in they heard about it or familiar as in they've been there before. If the location is moving or is not specific enough (Ex. "Find a Dragon's Lair) the spells fails. Not mentioning that this spells requires concentration, a very specific costly component and an OBJECT FROM THE PLACE YOU WISH TO FIND as a component. This is one of those spells that is useless in every campaign, not just for VM. The only way for this spells to be useful is for the DM to completely reinterpret what it does. Another one of those early 2014 spells with a messy design, they tend to create debates at most tables. I feel for Marisha's confusion, the spell "Find the path" not being able to find paths is hysterical tbh

[@thatbirdhasaknife]

As a note on Ashley waiting an hour before being introduced- not only is CR a show but the whole cast is experienced actors. Waiting for your call is part of the job. It makes sense at their table, not at any amateur's home game.

[@bristowski]

This a good channel. This is a good series. I like Mike.

[@TierRune]

IIRC, Jester uses Find the Path when they are looking for (to avoid spoilers) the source of Nott's curse.

[@screamingopossum7809]

That's also got a lot to do with the fact that they had absolutely no leads. It's THOSE situations that Find the Path is incredibly helpful. Not when you already know where you're going and how to get there. If you have no idea where the hell you're going, then you cast Find the Path. It starts your journey.

[@klarckfreeman276]

Hey Mike, I remembered you talked in another CR demystified video about different rules for keeping initiatives. I don't remember the exact video or know where to look for it. Would appreciate if you linked the rule or just general homebrew. I love your videos and like the interesting perspective you bring.

[@SupergeekMike]

I think you’re probably talking about this one! :) kzbin.info/www/bejne/rWeUg3ilgdGGndEsi=v80ueh4F9TmRYJ0t

[@caseymaxwell3300]

“Find the Path” is used by Liam’s character in the search for Grog one shot.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

Literally, the only use I have for Find the Path is completely rewriting it. I knock it down to 2nd level and have it read, "Until the end of your next rest, while traveling, you and your party can fully explore two hexes in the time it would take you to travel through one hex. If you use a spell slot of third level or higher, you can explore one more bonus hex for each spell level above second." If the spell is gonna be useless in 99% of games then it needs to be monumentally useful in the one game type it's designed for. Whatever your "you guys can move X number of hexes a day" limit is, this spell will help your party immensely. And if you're not using hex based travel, there's a 90% likelihood the PHB version of this spell was never going to work in your games anyway.

[@RottenRogerDM]

What the hex?

[@lefterismplanas4977]

2:15 that feeling is awesome and im there for it!

[@GoldXPStudios]

When I joined my first campaign a few years back, before my character was introduced to the party, our dm actually gave me a npc to pilot for 1/3 of our session. It was a good way to keep me engaged and it also got me excited for the introduction of my character as well. I will more than likely borrow this for my own game at some point

[@benyaffe5389]

This.. is a good channel. I like Mike!

[@merchantarthurn]

Having largely only seen the Vox Machina campaign via this series of yours and the TV show (which obviously chops-and-changes a lot) - Keylith's first casts of high level spells not quite working how Marisha wanted is endearing from a viewing perspective imo (maybe because I don't know much about DnD, especially spellcasting roles). It does such for Marisha as a player to feel like she's wasting her slots though.

[@kelpiekit4002]

High five for Tyriok and Ryn

[@chibirad]

38:55 DOGGO SPOTTED!

[@nathanfitzgerald2596]

woah, first! love this series, keep up the good work

[@pimnijsten9007]

I am watching season 1 for the first time and yesterday before bed I paused a certain episode after 1 hour and 34 mins. Just now I pressed play again - and guess what building Liam is about to walk into. There is no such thing as coincidence.

[@TheRabidGaming]

With regards to Find the Path, in my experiencing DMing, players initially make a lot of the same mistakes and assumptions about the spells actual purpose. I think this is hindered by the name of the spell. But players I have found often interpret the purpose of the spell as a way to get them to quest objectives and locations safer and easier. When in reality (as you alluded to) the spell really is more of a way to get unlost and find a way to safety. The very nature of exploration and adventuring means the vast majority of places you go to are going to be new places that the characters do not have experience with and thus isnt a good use for the spell. This is another example of a spell that seems to be aimed at the much more survival lost in the wild type campaign rather than the more typical video game inspired quest based adventuring.

[@tawesssoabbox]

I always assumed that it was "the chats fault" so to speak. That having an audience who had no issue with being the most nitpicky arseholes you can find... He became gun shy on the more free flow style. He became more rigid to oddly enough protect his players from the chat...

[@SupergeekMike]

I do think that’s part of it. I also don’t think it worked, unfortunately.

[@davidm1926]

10:12 - I don't see how it's possible that Travis would have just forgotten that.

[@lefterismplanas4977]

14:00 I think that this is an important lesson that, if I was ever to dm, i would have problems with. Thank you

[@BenSearsVids]

Something I love about this series is how you squash all the haters who shit on the players for normal things.

[@lefterismplanas4977]

26:22 Yeah... that honestly felt hirtfull to see. Come on Mat, show some understanding

[@Liesmith424]

The spell's requirement to have an object from the place you're trying to reach is just weird; the use case for that set of circumstances (having an object from the destination, but not knowing how to reach the destination) is pretty unlikely.

[@OccidentalAvian]

I will point out that Find the Path is even less useful than it's presented in Critical Role because of its Material component, which in both C1 and C2 has been ignored: You need an object from the location you're trying to find. Why would I need to find a path to a destination that I ostensibly have already been to since I have an object from it? All in all, Matt actually buffed Find the Path and still couldn't find it useful.

[@ashleywalla4087]

I think they remember that material component once and it was Liam as Lievtel in the search for Grog oneshot and I'm pretty sure even that is because Matt made it so that Bob took a bunch of their material components so that the adventure actually happened. And is also inconsistent in the same episode cause if I'm remembering right that happens the second time Liam tries to use it but it works the first time.

[@TheLordofMetroids]

Oh geez. Man Find the Path is even worse than I thought. Okay, so the only use I can really see for it: You just explored the 100 room dungeons. You killed the boss Collected the loot. You still have a 6th level spell, somehow. You are all mixed around. You cast Find the path to take you home without retracing all the crazy meandering steps you just fought through. But yeah any other circumstance? I'm sure there can be plot reasons, but those are the "set up a plot reason to do it," type moments.

[@WD_Gaster66]

​@@TheLordofMetroids Another possible (and incredibly niche though similar to your idea) use case for it that I thought would come in handy after watching the latest C3 episode. You get transported to a completely new place/plane/etc. You can only get out the way you came in, unable to use Teleport/Plane shift spells. Traversing this place is complex, or lacks distinguishing features and landmarks. In order to make it back to the entrance/portal after exploring or doing whatever you needed to do, you use Find the Path!

[@BucketPls]

I like Druids a lot, but it always bums me out that it is a class that is fully in the DM's hands if it is going to be fun or no. So many of the spells are so easily tipped towards not being fun, simply due to how vague some of the descriptions are. Or at least, that is my personal experience playing a Druid in a campaign and having so many spells just being slapped down and wasted, ending up with a strict never changing spell list making me wish I just chosen a Wizard instead at times.

[@stargateproductions]

26:00 Unlike Matt Mercer, I try to work with players on spells when the spell isn't working as intended. Also resource management with long rest casters is important. Find the path should work as intended here. I get a bit of DM vs Player here :( Edit: It's a concentration spell that lasts for 1 day (24 hours). If she casted it and maintained concentration, it wouldn't of been a "wasted spell". I'm still confused as to why Matt wouldn't of let it work as intended or outright tell the player that the spell wouldn't be useful in the campaign.

[@SupergeekMike]

Unfortunately I just don’t think Matt understood that he wasn’t understanding what Marisha wanted. He was confused but didn’t understand the core reason behind it was not understanding her intention with the spell. It sucks when that happens, but it’s totally natural, they’re only human. And ultimately there’s not always a clean answer to resolve confusion like that when you don’t understand the cause, besides “just get into the habit of asking questions more often, because that will help cut down on confusion like this in the future.”

[@ATMOSK1234]

I love windwalk, it's such a unique and interesting spell.

[@canadian__ninja]

Regarding introducing formerly absent players, the way I did this when I was a DM was to talk with the player and give "if ... or" scenarios. If they do this you are doing this or if they are doing this do this, do that for four or five examples based on what they're planning on doing. It keeps player suspension of disbelief in check and gives that player multiple ways to get them in ASAP.

[@shiva0]

Find the Path is hot garbage as a 6th level spell. Look at the material component, an item from the location you want to get to. Unless you want out of a maze and back to town it's pretty niche.

[@RomanNardone]

I think there's a difference between stealing the broom and the wasted spell. That being the outcome for and feedback the players receive from the game. If the DM lets the the PC waste a spell without discernable and clear information or effect then those players are less likely to stock Roleplay focused spells and will lean more combat as that is what is encouraged in the game. On the otherhand if the DM does not punish actions of the players that could be considered immoral or unethical then it makes it more likely that players will do whatever they want as there are no consequences.

[@Lauren_Overwat]

Im deep into campaign 2 currently and its such a weird experience hearing laura and liam talking as vex and vax again during these recaps

[@tonyzacker8946]

Same, dude, exactly my thoughts.

[@sebastiana.l.594]

Without saying much, there's a point where Laura uses Vex's voice in C3 and Liam's eyes when he connects the dots is amazing. He's just as confused XD

[@Lauren_Overwat]

@@sebastiana.l.594 that’s awesome, there was a similar moment in c2 when she had to not sound like jester

[@ironman21389]

Find the Path is a very niche spell. My players used it once with great success. They were traveling through a mountainous forest looking for a giant elm tree rumored to be the lair of a green dragon. They could see the tree from miles out but no clear way of getting there. Because of the spell, they were able to navigate towards the tree and it prevented them from getting lost. It can work, just not always.

[@stevecarter8810]

I guess that's another thing about a table full of voice and mocap actors: waiting around for half a day at a time is just part of the job.

[@benpurcell4935]

14:03 This reminds me of a Legends of Avantris short where a PC gets spooked and shoots his gun. The DM flat out tells the PC if he rolls a Nat 1 she’s going to have him hit another PC. Idk how the roll turns out but it’s still is a really funny moment.

[@manueltorresart2345]

So many things to learn from this episode. Anyway, I want to be a Sam in the table but I might end up being a Liam (making broody characters, not as good player as him).

[@jonmetrick7998]

might have been said before...but the way ive played/seen a lot of gm's do it is 'give me arcana/nature/religion check' and its usually a dc of 10 to offer insight into what the character should know about what a spell would do.

[@nordicnugz]

I think there's a fine line between telling your players that a spell may not give anymore info than they already have, and trying to tell the players what they should do. I think that line can get hazy if you're not careful. There's also the concept of letting players learn from their mistakes as well... idk, food for thought, really. I don't know how i'd handle it in the moment.

[@corwyncorey3703]

In regards to the "introducing characters back into the table" issue, the key is that the *whole table agrees with the methodology* so disagreeing with this method is moot. They prefer it, it is *their* table, so anyone else's opinion on how they play their game is irrelevant. What *IS* relevant is how others do it at their tables. And that it should be discussed. Knowing your fellow players well helps with this, but when an issue begins to manifest, it is good to look into it.

[@OliverK1]

Wow, find the path kinda sux as a level 6 spell. Should be level 3 tops.

[@MogoPrime]

I know it's not RAW, in fact the opposite, but I think my lesson is that, if my players ever use that spell I will do my best to reward them for expending the 6th level slot, and I will illustrate how it gives the caster the fastest safe and effective path, like an experienced sherpa. I will show them that, on a lower path, one anyone would have chosen by default, more monster hiding pits are now obvious. Fit the spell to work best with your style of campaign. Some things are meant for crunchy survival campaigns and, as in this case, don't have a lot of obvious value. Thanks for the thought exercise, I think I've learned some things today. I like Mike!

[@zefiewings]

Wow, find the path is a weird spell. If it is a game where trying to get to your destination is wrought with danger, then circumventing all of that with a single spell is pretty dang powerful and probably boring as hell. If it is a game where the destination is the thing and not too much goes on in the travels except under specific circumstances then the most you could hope to get out of it is being told you shaved off some time by knowing an efficient route in the travel summary, it is pretty dang lame and probably boring as hell. Basically...I also don't really understand the point of this spell upon reflection.

[@TheLordofMetroids]

I really think it's only built for a massive dungeon crawl. If I made a dungeon with 100 interlocking rooms, and you want to find the shortest path to your objective, missing pitfalls and traps, its a great spell. In almost any other situation, it's really weird.

[@zefiewings]

@@TheLordofMetroids Its a very effective spell in those circumstances but I can't wrap my head around it being a good spell because I don't understand how I could know a DM prepped 100 rooms and I am just going to be like "nah we not doing that today." I'm also not the kind of person who can play Starcraft with Poweroverhelming though (as a specific example) so it might just be me. Just feels more egregious in an RPG where someone had to prep it and it's not the result of me trying to spice up a level I've already played multiple times. Probably just an example of not being able to know unless you were in that kind of game though.

[@JaxiPaxified]

Yay, I love these videos! I think campaign 1 has been my favorite of all. Maybe it's the vanilla epic fantasy vibes that hasn't been prominent in the later campaigns.

[@felixrivera895]

15:26 The part in the title is at this point.

[@RPGtourguide]

Started off with a big lesson, in my opinion; Make your players feel like their actions matter. Having an NPC return whose life was changed by the party is an easy way to remind the players that they are a part of the world and they are, in some way, shaping it.

[@xxliew]

I like how Sam asks if the petrified folk are Tyriok's friends, like they'd only bother to save them if they're people they personally care about. This kind of attitude towards NPCs really bothers me especially in a realistic campaign.

[@robertbemis9800]

I once spent a game session dead I’m still salty about that

[@Vile_Oreo]

Remember, this campaign was in Pathfinder for 7 or so levels. Serenrae and the Raven Queen are both primarily Pathfinder deities after all. In a parallel universe, Critical Role was played in Pathfinder and possibly Pathfinder 2e meaning Paizo was the one responsible for the TTRPG boom instead. Food for thought.

[@zippomage]

raven queen is from the dawn wars cosmology, a product of 4th edition, which eventually caused the designing of pathfinder

[@BearWith_You]

Just reading this description, neither is using it right. It clearly states you must be familiar with the location. How can you be familiar with the location if you've never been (Marisha's mistake). Also it takes the shortest path not the safest (Matt's mistake). As a verbal medium, this spell just seems weird unless you need to get somewhere in a set amount of time. My DM typically says, alright you get there. When I run stuff I typically have them roll survival. Which could backfire if they don't know where they're going (An example, they knew someone was taken out of the city, high survival, they found a location outside the city, but not where the subjects were at)

[@JosefDerKaiser]

Can someone give me an example of when find the path would be useful? If you have to have been there, unless you have Grog intelligence you should be able to find your way back. Especially if its something like this sphynx lair.

[@CM-ck4nl]

There's a lot of great examples here, but I think find the path is just a poorly presented spell that sets people up for this scenario. It sounds great but is actually pretty situational and unnecessary outside of a dungeon or maze. I sympathize with Matt because at the end of the day, the DM is left with the job of making everything make sense and play out fairly naturally, no matter if it actually makes sense to their brain. They both had a similar misunderstanding so I dont think its totally fair to say its on Matt to just 'describe better' It aint easy describing topography from imagination with perfect clarity. Just like it isnt for players to internalize. I blame the spell. I also think nothing functionally changed about the situation regarding find the path, after the basilisk encounter. They STILL just needed to go to the mountains and those are clearly visible with no obstacles. A bright light on the horizon doesnt really make any difference. If anything it just makes the spell even more irrelevant. Sometimes the simplest solution is the best one and high level play can obscure that somewhat.

[@damiens4601]

Is the sound sligthly unsynced or is it me ?

[@lefterismplanas4977]

Im seeing this late. Sorry. Still trying to figure out where/when i have the net for videos. Will return to narnal during August

[@SupergeekMike]

No worries!

[@Keovar]

After Vax had his literal bloodbath communing scene, I found it odd and disappointing that Taliesin had Percy go do the same. I know Taliesin is into that sort of gothic scene, but it seemed rude to step on Vax's story like that. He could have spoken to Matt later about adding more black lace and ennui to Percy's 'self-loathing noble' story.

[@zippomage]

THE HUNK OF QWOL!!!!!!

[@RottenRogerDM]

When running gods, it is hard to juggle all knowing, all caring, etc.

[@RottenRogerDM]

Find the Path 6th-level divination Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Self Components: V, S, M (a set of divinatory tools-such as bones, ivory sticks, cards, teeth, or carved runes-worth 100 gp and an object from the location you wish to find) Duration: Concentration, up to 1 day This spell allows you to find the shortest, most direct physical route to a specific fixed location that you are familiar with on the same plane of existence. If you name a destination on another plane of existence, a destination that moves (such as a mobile fortress), or a destination that isn’t specific (such as “a green dragon’s lair”), the spell fails. For the duration, as long as you are on the same plane of existence as the destination, you know how far it is and in what direction it lies. While you are traveling there, whenever you are presented with a choice of paths along the way, you automatically determine which path is the shortest and most direct route (but not necessarily the safest route) to the destination.

[@RottenRogerDM]

I been playing for 7 years now and I still forget you need an object from your location. I can see why people forget it. And I don't think the 1E spell needed the location object just the runes. But we all had days where we could not communicate clearly with our players. I still remember the "Hinges on the inside" debate from high school.

[@Dunybrook]

I would never describe Matt as a hard case in any way. He seems so kind and forgiving compared to most DM's I'm used to from campaigns where everybody understands that sometimes part of the DM's job is to torment or kill the player characters and it's just part of the fun. It did seem like Keylith was trying to use the find the path spell in a way that it's not intended to be used, as written. It clearly says that the location has to be specific and not general. It also only gives the shortest and most direct route, not necessarily bypassing any dangerous terrain.

[@Giyuo]

Same problem with find traps