sv650 wheelies and oil level

[@Sympul1]

You're doing god's work, thank you Sir.

[@SuperLiconic]

Thanks again, after 3 years it's still valuable :)

[@TalosIO]

Strat here from the forum. Just want to thank you for your great videos. Please keep doing them :)

[@eflanagan1921]

Thanks for making this . I wonder if extending the pick up tube down and to the rear would alleviate the problem .

[@Mad8vCycles]

Youd have to punch through the back wall and skip the strainer. Also... thats a ton of work for marginal returns

[@knuddelwinzig498]

This is what some pro Stunt rider do. But a v2 is not the best engine for this, except it's a dry sump setup. If the oil pressure drops, the jaw usually do also very soon.

[@franklinshooter3050]

Stock SVs are not stunt bikes and this video illustrates that quite clearly. Thanks for the upload! 👍🍻

[@eflanagan1921]

Fun to watch even though you taught this 2 years ago ! Old Fan boy, me !

[@Svakhen]

Love it, but you know damn well someone in one of the groups is going to come up with some random idea to make you do it again.

[@psychouki]

Because they aren't correct. Dont take bad information and apply it to life.

[@joshbullers14]

I've had my 02 since almost new, i always start it and check the oil level in the sight glass with it running and if I know I'm gonna be out messing around and pulling wheelies I over fill it 1/2qt. Bike has 17k miles on it and so far not a single issue. Just a tidbit I thought might help

[@sflynn4925]

One up this I have an 06 with 96K miles of wheelies and track days, general hooliganisim, no issues. Im sure if I learned how to balance point my motor would be blown by now, but I always overfill the oil a tad and have never had any issues.

[@Cusconillow]

@@sflynn4925 are you saying you overfill it past the full line? Or do you mean just above the halfway point between empty and full?

[@butlersracing7692]

Yeah same my 2010 has around 25 000km of 2nd gear - 3rd gear long clutch ups and still going strong 👍

[@KnightZ33]

Thank you for taking the time to make this video. You have saved me $

[@KnightZ33]

Especially on Reddit 😊😊

[@FairladyS130]

That oil pickup could in theory be extended further down into the oil to reduce starvation at wheelie angles. That would require a redesign which could have been done originally.

[@rafrometaman]

I just submitted a comment asking if that could be done by sticking a heat resistant material tube into the oil intake 😂

[@UncleWally3]

After having collectively put over 200 000 trouble free kilometers on three of these engines what I’m hearing is that, barring extreme situations, there’s not a problem. Am I close?

[@Mad8vCycles]

dont wheelie them and they dont get oil starved yea

[@UncleWally3]

@@Mad8vCycles: And, wouldn’t a few short wheelies probably be more of a challenge to the suspension than the engine? It’s an interesting video though, always good to know the internal workings . . . . of anything.

[@Mad8vCycles]

@@UncleWally3 key word short. and yes.

[@DrKampfpudding]

Have you been riding to the Moon and Back on your 3 SV's lol ??

[@Cusconillow]

@@Mad8vCycles “Short” meaning basically riding out 1st and 2nd gear?

[@NateAnde]

doesn't this also mean going up a steep enough hill will cause the same issue?

[@Mad8vCycles]

A 40 degree hill... you will not be able to ride up. Just from traction/power/etc.

[@psychouki]

Must not go offroad much

[@Mad8vCycles]

On an sv?

[@shootermcgavin2819]

@@psychouki oh yea like you go to Ocotillo all the time and shred the gnar on your SV650..

[@psychouki]

Yes on an sv650. You afraid of some dirt and twigs?? Yall ain't riding for real out there. Stop being such panzies

[@gaborszopka9619]

If the engine is running, the oil level sinks, because the lubrification starts, which requires oil. The oil has to be present in the upper regions, to the camshaft in the upper cylinder head. If you start the engine, the oil is not visible in the level inspection window. If you rev the engine, the oil level sinks even more significantly. Plus, the whole bike is accelerating which forces the oil backwards. So the oil level you are assuming to have in the engine while you are doing a wheelie, is not correct. Just think about it...

[@Mad8vCycles]

yep. and a whole lot of other factors. like can the tube going down to the sump suck up air or not, is the oil vapor helpful, etc. but keeping it simple, "wheelies bad for svs"

[@gaborszopka9619]

@@Mad8vCycles yes, that is what I meant. The situation is even worse than it looks. (y)

[@Steyreon]

Thanks for making this clear! 😊

[@fuglbird]

Thank you for doing this. It was very useful to me. I guess I don't want to ride my SV650 in San Fransisco, Harlech in Wales or Dunedin in New Zealand. What about going upwards? Does the pump inlet go dry at 40° as well or is the angle different?

[@Mad8vCycles]

if you can drive up a 40* hill id be pretty impressed. youd have a hard time walking up one unless you're a roofer or something.

[@blackburn36k]

@@Mad8vCycles lol

[@SubieMatt]

I wonder if riding up some of the hills in San Francisco will cause starvation

[@Mad8vCycles]

@@SubieMatt id be surprised if you can WALK up a 40 degree slope much less ride

[@АлександрХороший-ц7ш]

Thank you a lot, interesting and needed

[@damacknificent151]

Wondering if going up steep hills will probably cause the same?

[@Mad8vCycles]

you're not going to make it up a 40 degree hill. youd actually have difficulty walking up a 40 degree hill... kzbin.info/www/bejne/qnaomHyEpLVlY9E

[@derpinguin7003]

So it’s only a problem if your oil is not full and you go 40 degrees or more? Why not fill your oil up and/or keep it under 40?

[@Mad8vCycles]

Not quite. Even overfilled a bit the oil goes away from the pickup. And yeah, little low wheelies wont do anything

[@rafrometaman]

What if you extend the oil intake tube (with a heat resistant material) so that its always under the oil level when doing Willies? 🤔

[@Mad8vCycles]

@@rafrometaman see how it's in a compartment? Youd need to get it from all the way in the back. Probably more machine work than a whole bike thats good for wheelies (ninja 650 for example)

[@OfirMX]

How did I miss this?!

[@Mad8vCycles]

i... dont know. it's my single most viewed vid

[@paulintile]

Does anyone know if there is a dry sump conversion kit or a solution to relocate the oil pick-up to the rear of the engine for these bikes?

[@Mad8vCycles]

nope.

[@pratmak]

Wheelies bad, but what about stoppies? They shouldn’t hurt anything right?

[@Mad8vCycles]

@@pratmak how long can you hold a stoppie lol. A few seconds wont do anything either way

[@pratmak]

@@Mad8vCycles so many repeated stoppie practice session shouldn’t mess anything up as long I am not holding it continuously right?

[@Mad8vCycles]

@@pratmak first off, i think during a stoppie oile wouldnt shift away from the pickup. Second, i dont think it's possible that youre rolling 10 second stoppies or whatever.

[@VasyaIvanovichPupkin]

Something does not add up. What's on the other side of the baffle where the oil tube ends (starts)? If it is sealed, then the effective orafice is much lower and closer to the bottom of the pan. I also remember that they have redisigned that "baffle" for the seciond gen compared to the '99 engine.

[@VasyaIvanovichPupkin]

The part I am talking about is the back plate that can be seen after 52:14 in your "sv650 motor teardown" video.

[@Mad8vCycles]

behind that plate is the oil screen.

[@Mad8vCycles]

it's not "sealed" like gasketed, just plated off.

[@Mad8vCycles]

as far as baffle design, i have a bunch of cases so i can go look next time im at the shop

[@VasyaIvanovichPupkin]

@@Mad8vCycles I was afraid of that ))) Time to break out the RTV! ))

[@marscobras8281]

I have 2 sv650 motors gonna build a good one out of the 2...Rn stumped on how to time the crank to the rear head!!! Cam timing marks are crazy!!!!

[@Mad8vCycles]

Grab a service manual online. There are a ton of pdfs of it.

[@butlersracing7692]

I've been wheeling my 2010 model for close to 25000km now and still going strong. Long 2nd - 3rd gear clutchup wheelies no problem. I know plenty guys doing the same....

[@arkashaes6618]

You know about long term damage and sudden failure, due to long term damage? You can’t know if you damaged your engine until you either look at it or it fails. And than people sale their bikes stating it’s showroom condition.

[@butlersracing7692]

@@arkashaes6618 my friend in my decades of riding people have been wheeling these things since the TL first came out. It's how most learnt to wheelie and not once have I actually seen or heard of an SV engine fail. Infact you'll be lucky to find more than 5 detailed stories of destruction due to this... Many people have opinions regarding this but the fact of the matter is you looking at like a tiny percentage failure rate globally. Lastly this is my 5th variant of this engine since the late 90s in both 1000 and 650 configuration and all have handled the same abuse and more and never had a come back after sale or sat with lemon after buying higher mileage units from friends who have done the exact same.

[@psychouki]

These guys think they know what they are talking about but you can't predict or conceive every possible variable that will occur while going 40+ mph down the road. Your bike had gravity and inertia working against it. Nothing is stable or motionless while moving at speed

[@butlersracing7692]

@@psychouki yep unless one is physically sitting in the engine you will never know what is happening with the fluid dynamics within. All I know is that my SV is still running hard even with all the abuse and rear wheel action just like many others out there.

[@theopoint1911]

You're basically saying "I did not have this problem so it doesn't exist" I think you can understand that it's not true

[@MenderSlen579]

So what would be the max safe angle?

[@Mad8vCycles]

it's not like it's instant death if the bike does a wheelie. it's just time without oiling that is concerning

[@robertoberll1741]

Enyone could explain me then, why am I doing long wheelies (definitely more than 60-70 degree) on my SFV 650 Gladius and never ever seen red light (oil presure) ? How its possible?

[@higtmance3641]

You will make the engine explode if you keep doing this, so just stop...

[@FilthyGoyim]

Keep going. FOR SCIENCE!

[@raymondsimpson7433]

Ii guess this applies to the vstrom 650 as well

[@Mad8vCycles]

Same motor pretty much

[@raymondsimpson7433]

@@Mad8vCycles I have watched this several times and I believe that a lot of left hand twistys or steep leaning turns could cause the pump to suck air too.

[@Mad8vCycles]

@@raymondsimpson7433 probably accurate. i know at daytona bikes need to overfill a bit so they dont blow up on the banking. however, in "normal" use, how long do you spend layed over to the left? even when im doing circle drills, it's only a few seconds before im back to vertical

[@TheBluetoo99]

Could the pickup be extended down and back with a stainless or copper elbow so the extended pickup would stay in the oil at 40 degrees? Just curious.

[@Mad8vCycles]

It kinds sits in its own area. And if youre splitting casss to do this... just get a different bike (the ninja 650 doesnt care for example)

[@johnwright6995]

It's been a problem since 99 first year production I had one the guy I bought it of said dont wheelie it you'll seize it never did cant wheelie anyway but the thought of a stretched chain worn cush drive and bust fork seals put me of have to say the most reliable bike I've had take care

[@brad3201]

Good video, thank you

[@МихаилТолстиков-х9в]

how can you solve the problem with oil starvation?

[@Mad8vCycles]

Get a different bike lol

[@МихаилТолстиков-х9в]

@@Mad8vCycles kzbin.info/www/bejne/bqvXfWCie6ethsU

[@МихаилТолстиков-х9в]

guys don't think so

[@Mad8vCycles]

Sam is an irl friend heh. For daytona we just overfill the bike a bit. But nothing is gonna cure the wheelie starvation

[@МихаилТолстиков-х9в]

@@Mad8vCycles do you pour more oil? and if you make a separate lubrication? separate remote tank. so that the pump pumps from there. and the sump was dry.

[@daniildaniil5185]

1200ml?2000?

[@2910mack]

what about running an additional amount of oil??🤷‍♂

[@Mad8vCycles]

if you go too high with that, the clutch will froth it and not let it work

[@2910mack]

@@Mad8vCycles so the only other option is some sort of custom improvised oil baffle

[@Mad8vCycles]

Or just using the bike as it's inteded (or selling it and getting the ninja 650 which doesnt have this)

[@daniildaniil5185]

What lt oil ?

[@mostlymotorized]

I'm fascinated at how your set up is leaking and rather than resetting and starting the video over you decided to post a video of unsatisfactory data. If anyone is curious about why their bike has low compression in the rear cylinder only, it's not because of oil starvation because that would affect both cylinders. It's because the throttle linkage is controlled by the front throttle body first, and then there is a secondary link controlling the rear from the front throttle bodies movement. The front throttle body which is more precisely controlled also has the throttle position sensor connected to it. As that secondary link wears out there is slop between the 2 throttle bodies. At that point during warm-up, during idle, and during slight throttle opening only the front throttle body is being moved and the rear cylinder is seeing an increase in fuel delivery (from the TPS on the front TB) before the throttle blade begins to move (for the rear cyl). It causes the rear cylinder to run rich and get washed out

[@Mad8vCycles]

@@mostlymotorized it would be "unsatisfactory" regardless cause the acceleration forces cannot be accounted for and neither can the volume of oil sucked into the heads etc. Low compression is not what kills the bike. Starvation is and affects every part of the engjne

[@Mad8vCycles]

@@mostlymotorized sv tps is on the rear not the front last i checked

[@marscobras8281]

Your mesurments are wrong. A static non running bike will read full. With A running bike oil level drops. You dont wheelie with the bike off.

[@Mad8vCycles]

I mentioned this a few times that some oil will go up to the heads etc. But there isnt a way to account for that on a table. Doesnt change the outcome (still oil starvation but a bit earlier)

[@olivergough8550]

How much oil can you put in the engine before it negatively effects the motor?

[@Mad8vCycles]

a little over full. after that the clutch will start frothing it up like a cappucino at a gallon (i know this from a buddy doing it like a derp) the bike will be all but breathing oil and smoking, the clutch will be impossible to use, and will generally run like ass.

[@olivergough8550]

Thankyou

[@dudek428]

What is year of that engine? Is that truth, engines after lifting got better oil lubrification?

[@Mad8vCycles]

All the sv motors are the same. Motors cant pick up oil if theyre tilted wrong

[@dudek428]

@@Mad8vCycles ok, thanks A lot

[@peterfabian8863]

So up to 40 degrees is ok?

[@Mad8vCycles]

Make your own decisions... but with no other factors over 40 is definitely oil starvation

[@zacharybsmith1987]

Could you not just extend the pickup tube to the rear bottom of the case?

[@Mad8vCycles]

it's in a well with the strainer filter. and cant get to it without splitting cases. just the wrong bike for the job

[@dobber43]

@@Mad8vCycles sad it was such an easy change they could have made before making the bike

[@martinm.6968]

Thanks for your work! Does anyone know - is it the same Story with the bigger sv1000?

[@Mad8vCycles]

I do heh. it's the same exact layout. maybe a few more or less degrees but nothing particularly different in the sump

[@FeltIntuition]

Would over filling it with oil cause other problems serious problems?

[@Mad8vCycles]

too much will make the clutch stick and would get frothed up by the plates. or could push past the rings. etc.

[@joshbullers14]

I over fill mine 1/2qt if I'm gonna be riding wheelies and I run rotela 15w40 T4 since new. No frothing and no engine issues, but then again I'm not poppin it up vertically either!

[@Mad8vCycles]

@@joshbullers14 1/2 qt isnt THAT much though. not even really sure if it would help the wheelie thing that much either

[@joshbullers14]

@Mad8v Cycles alot of people don't check em while there running either! In my opinion oil that circulating in a running engine is a way better method for oil level checking.

[@Mad8vCycles]

@@joshbullers14 the sightglass is empty on the sv when it's running... and should be.

[@recoilrob324]

What kind of dipshit would give this a thumbs down? This is conclusive proof that all the people who say the SV is a 'great stunt bike' are pretty much idiots and are dooming their engines to an early and painful death. If the wheelie is anywhere up where you can balance it...that's WAY too high! I myself am guilty of 'power wheelies' where the front tires is within a couple inches of the pavement and so far that hasn't caused any problems. And if you're running good oil it's the film strength that keeps metal from grinding on metal so a brief interruption in the oil feed shouldn't cause instantaneous death...but there are lots of places in the motor that rely on the oil flow for cooling...so be kind to your SV and keep it near the ground.

[@danisyx5804]

sharpies and moisture don't mix, it's a bloody mess but very informative.

[@Mad8vCycles]

Id have loved to do better, but only so many hands/time/interest :p

[@danisyx5804]

@@Mad8vCycles you are doing great. hoping i can get to where i am more useful maybe i can help with some of this stuff.

[@dedelabinouze5110]

I have to say i'm confused, there's no way Suzuki would produce something that is so poorly designed. I mean basically if you accelerate hard enough on a hill climb while being on the low mark of the oil level you starve your engine too ?

[@Mad8vCycles]

You cant really go up a 40 degree hill on an sv. Wont have enough grip.

[@dedelabinouze5110]

@@Mad8vCycles The combo of hard acceleration, oil level on minimum, hill inclination let's say 15% and lower oil level due to running engine would do it though wouldn't it ?

[@Mad8vCycles]

@@dedelabinouze5110 maybe. kinda how at daytona with the banking people overfill the motors a bit

[@dedelabinouze5110]

@@Mad8vCycles How can Suzuki comes out with such a poor design though i'm confused.

[@Mad8vCycles]

Mostly because "use case outside design parameters"

[@MrMelvinkennedy1]

1/2 quart overfill problem solved

[@Mad8vCycles]

crankcase pressure will be fun.... and clutch frothing it.

[@MrMelvinkennedy1]

@@Mad8vCycles 🤷‍♂️

[@Micahslooseearlobe]

Could have been a 60 second video lol

[@Mad8vCycles]

Yeah im long winded: ( and editing isnt my forte

[@tylermymclark5403]

You realize at this point now you could just design a fix for it so do it and patent it and then people will be stunting SVs all over the place lol

[@Mad8vCycles]

but... why? just get a ninja 650 if you want to unicycle. or even more usefully a 690smcr (which i thoroughly liked owning)

[@salvatores.7731]

Ma non capisco questa dimostrazione....è una cosa ovvia

[@TheSilviu8x]

Non era ovvio per quelli che sostengono che sia una ottima Moto per fare i stunt/acrobazie... Effettivamente, per uso normale, perfino impennate accidentale o non, non da alcun problema, ma rimane comunque un design stupido, in quanto per esempio la Kawasaki sulle 650, a posizionato il foro di pescaggio in fondo è più in basso possibile...

[@360carcrazy]

If this was true you could not go up hill.

[@Mad8vCycles]

where the hell do you have 40 degree hills you ride up? and if you do find one, how do you not run out of traction?

[@shaggjkh1985]

@Mad8v Cycles my driveway is over 40 degrees, go up it all the time without issue in first gear. I've got a 2018 sv650.

[@Mad8vCycles]

Uhm... how? Youd have difficulty walking up 40 degrees and like... 0 cars can drive up 40 degrees

[@Mad8vCycles]

Picturing this when you walk up your driveway... kzbin.info/www/bejne/h4OYdXyoncuHobM

[@shaggjkh1985]

@Mad8v Cycles yeah, it's steep as shit, but it's only like 50ft that goes down to my carport. I can get a good start in first and cruise on up it, only if it's dry.

[@segipak]

Зенит, Санкт-Петербург??!!! flag

[@Mad8vCycles]

давно весит наверно в половине видео

[@Mad8vCycles]

или даже "висит" хз я плохо по русски пишу