SWA

[@blancolirio]

UPDATE!: 9:20 That was ANOTHER aircraft on the ground at LGA who wanted to know the reasons for the Go-Arounds so he could make a better Go/NO Go Decision. He elected to NOT GO until the weather (winds) improved. Windshear needs to be accurately PIREDed by Aircrews to help make informed decisions about the operation. Jb 4/7/24

[@JMChladek]

I wish there was a PIREP broadcasting service on either ATIS or in a parallel channel so aircrews can get the latest update before a go/no go decision is made in dodgy weather.

[@RWBHere]

Not a pilot, but I am a Radio Amateur. So apologies if this sounds like a stupid question: Was the aircraft possibly aligning itself with a sidelobe of the guidance beam? That could explain the deviations. Thanks.

[@lionheart082766]

Yes Juan, they pilots usually give a Windshear report after rollout. We have given one at LGA of 10-15kts. It can be tricky. Just the fact that Pireps are being given is enough to warn the pilots of the presence of Windshear as well as it being a positive or negative. Pireps are put on Wx sites and are relayed by ATC. It will be included in ATIS if the airport is reporting it. Winds can change a lot in a short period of time as in x-wind and an aircraft might be out of limits after lining up on the runway. A lack of situational awareness is going to be a factor here.

[@davidt8087]

Female was flying thr approaches that's why. Pilot flying doesn't talk. After 2 failures and one of them being so massively pathetic it's ASTONISHING the pilot flying is even a fkn pilot much less airline pilot, the captain took over which is why the female was speaking on southwest after the second pathetic attempt

[@Melanie16040]

@@RWBHere I am wondering this myself.

[@622mf]

As a retired controller, this is one of the most chilling events I've ever heard of. What a great save by that controller! Many many lives saved!

[@phil9410]

Sir I would like to ask you a question. Do we have to many planes to Handel? Even if these pilots are the blame is it time to reduce the number of take offs and landings?

[@khall187]

As a guy who sits on his couch, I agree

[@KeithWahamaki]

ASDE stands for Airport Surface Detection Equipment....or at least it did 12 years ago when I retired. I am pretty sure that the "new" controller was receiving a change of controller briefing from the "old" controller when she saw that Southwest was not where they should have been so she took appropriate action. Well done!

[@seanur2414]

I would be interested to learn how controller-to-controller briefings occur at an area as demanding and critical as this is. How do you hand off such busy airspace without reducing your situational awareness? Is there an overlapping handoff, where controller taking over just observes for 30 mins or something so you can minimize the words that need to be spoken off air? I agree this controller saved the day. A lot more is needed to determine what happened in the airplane.

[@NicolaW72]

Indeed.

[@dashriprock4308]

Well done.

[@wturn5354]

@@seanur2414 The relieving controller observes for several minutes then will say “I got it”, then the controller that was relieved will stay for several minutes after to ensure integrity.

[@brianwest2775]

Thank goodness that controller looked out the window. I suspect that when starting a shift there's a lot to review on the computer screen to understand where everyone is at. That could have been a major disaster destined for a movie script.

[@obfuscatethecode5696]

Eagle Eye award for her! I’m glad the controller spotted this. This could’ve been tragic!

[@cynvision]

She could see but apparently the pilots were searching so hard for the runway they could not see what the plane was really doing.

[@wturn5354]

The only problem was she panicked and DID NOT USE A CALL SIGN when attempting to issue a go around!!!

[@dosgos]

@@wturn5354 Was there time?

[@carlwilliams6977]

​@@wturn5354I wonder if she wasn't the controller handling finals, and didn't even have them on a screen (for ID), but just saw them out the window?😮 Concerning that none of the bells and whistles went off!

[@wturn5354]

@@dosgosyes, and not using a call sign frequently results in the pilot asking if that call was for them, or another pilot may ask as well and a LOT of time is wasted! There is a reason flights have call signs!

[@zidoocfi]

FALCON is a radar replay tool that we controllers have. It's like having Victor put a video together for us except that it's much quicker, has more detail in several ways, but it doesn't come with subtitles. We controllers use FALCON to do radar replays somewhat regularly. Sorry that we FAA people speak in acronyms like a second language. (Though I am current FAA, my views and opinions are expressed in a private capacity).

[@Evan-ed7pu]

No one knows who you are bozo, no need for a disclaimer

[@PfizerRN_NavyReserveCaptain]

Brand new GA pilot here after happily retiring early from Pfizer, so bear with me. Do Southwest 737s have Cat III autoland capabilities in their aircraft? Any ideas why the La Guardia plates say "Autopilot coupled approach not authorized for Runway 04"? Any ideas what Southwest's minimum are?

[@williamcandee5267]

@@PfizerRN_NavyReserveCaptain Juan explains it in the video. First of all, no autoland on Rwy 4. Best rumour is that the localizer is known to get squirrly near the ground and would cause too much movement of a coupled aircraft.

[@PfizerRN_NavyReserveCaptain]

@@williamcandee5267 Appreciate it

[@weatherupstairs4814]

@@PfizerRN_NavyReserveCaptain LGA is known to have problems with magnetic compass interference due to how it was built, using fill from Rikers over steel-frame pilings. I don't know if ILS anomalies are also connected to this problem.

[@scottishcontentcreators]

Some people owe a big thank you to the controller, she definitely saved the day and peoples lives, potentially including hers and the other controllers. What a way to start a shift, seeing a Boeing emerge from the mist heading straight towards your tower !

[@tking2822]

Amén 🙏🏽. Thanks to the air traffic controller. She saved many lives on that day.

[@georgemartin1436]

Always more enjoyable to hear Juan's analysis when there was no loss of life.

[@revvyhevvy]

Absolutely!

[@VodkaFanClub]

I absolutely agree. Same with Mentour Pilot!

[@khall187]

No LOL

[@nitramluap]

...and people want to remove humans from these systems. The human is the one thing that saved the day!

[@revvyhevvy]

Precisely!

[@jhsevs]

I mean…

[@Kayak51]

Same can be said about machines. I would argue that machines helped with more landings than they hurt however I'm not at all suggesting removing humans.

[@alexanderwalley2639]

@@Kayak51if it ain’t broke don’t fix it

[@RyTrapp0]

@@alexanderwalley2639 Depends on what you define as "broke"

[@400_billion_suns]

That controller deserves an award. She very likely saved hundreds of lives in that moment, possibly including her own. What a scary situation, and thank goodness for her quick and clear reaction.

[@wendygerrish4964]

That's why its a great job to have, rewarding in itself,, and why its so stressfull.stressful. Hopefully those bosses don't try and blame atc.

[@wturn5354]

No, she didn’t even use a call sign, VERY POOR!

[@revvyhevvy]

​@@wturn5354 what, are you her superior???

[@Asta-wl8jz]

@@wturn5354 She saved 100's of lives....give it a break!

[@400_billion_suns]

@@wturn5354 🤦‍♂️ There’s always one if you, isn’t there? The time required to figure out and say their callsign might’ve been the difference between recovery and collision. The plane on terminal descent got the message and acted immediately. You should watch this video again and listen to Juan’s detailed breakdown to understand how close they were to ending up in a ball of flames.

[@dl33tc0dr6]

Juan, I think it's a true testament to the quality of your reporting that tower controllers are not only here watching your videos but also willing to stick out their necks to comment.

[@mattscarf]

Also FAA guys

[@Wayne_Robinson]

The controller who called for the go-around sounded like they were watching the plane bear down on them and didn't like the view.

[@tking2822]

She did a awesome job

[@canofanger]

You know it's a bad day when you end up on Blancolirio.

[@horizon42q]

If you are still alive

[@philipcobbin3172]

JetBlue immediately made the right call on the Low Alt alert from the tower, don't try to fix it just go around, very prudent. There's no harm, no foul on a decision to go around.

[@andreea007]

Shouldn't they have received in the tower an altitude alert for SW too, similar to the one received for JetBlue?

[@42dunbar]

I doubt the system is designed to detect aircraft that are not lined up with the runway.

[@andreea007]

@@42dunbar The system is designed to prevent terrain collisions for other aircrafts too, not just for the ones on the approach.

[@jimw1615]

I'll wager the oncoming controller was standing right there at the controller spot she was taking long enough to witness the first go-around and was looking out the cab window for the aircraft when it descended below the cloud layer. Standing in the background observing gives one the time and perspective to sense these types of things in all situations in life.

[@onlyme112]

Well said.

[@GarretWilkerson]

Could very well be. It is a great save. Controllers are regularly reminded that during and immediately after Position Relief Briefings (PRBs) the risk of a mistake or oversight is much higher and we are trained to be even more vigilant because of it. During PRBs there is a lot of information being exchanged verbally, while traffic continues to move, and it takes careful focus to stay on top of things.

[@igclapp]

They almost wiped out a neighborhood in Queens! Looking at the ADS-B for 17:01:28Z, they were at 275 feet pressure altitude and STILL DESCENDING at 576 feet per minute! KLGA altimeter was 29.79, so that means they were at 135 feet MSL. Street level there is 27 feet MSL, so they were 108 feet above street level and maybe 75 feet above roof level! Well, at least their static port was! I wonder how far below the static port their wheels were? If they had delayed the go-around for a few more seconds...😮

[@johnhill2927]

Good call about the equipment being that high.😅 But you have to measure it from the "sensor," which could be higher or lower inside the aircraft than the actual static port.

[@igclapp]

@@johnhill2927 Ah, good point about the location of the actual pressure sensor. I also downloaded the EGM96 corrected GPS kml file from ADS-B. It shows a minimum altitude of 47 meters, or basically 154 feet MSL. I suppose GPS altitude is not exactly the same as antenna height? Is there some additional error because the velocity factor of the GPS antenna cable is less than 1? Or is the GPS solution made right at the antenna by embedded electronics?

[@Highside713]

In these days with cameras EVERYWHERE, it is highly likely there is some ground based video of this out there. I'm surprised we haven't seen any yet.

[@igclapp]

@@Highside713 People in Queens are so used to low flying planes that this may not have registered, so they didn't review their security cams/doorbell cams.

[@Raoul_Volfoni]

Very strange they did not go around by themselves

[@markmaki4460]

And Lloyd Bridges freaked out and dove out a window when he saw the airliner heading straight for him!

[@kurtkensson2059]

Guess he picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

[@vice10mmauto]

He's comin' right at us!

[@danielayers]

Shirley not!

[@Roland_Rohrle]

​@@danielayersdon't call me Shirley

[@DemopVWgarage]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@johnvalery]

Retired airline Captain, I have flown many many times into KLGA. Juan, please note that the ILS Hold Short line on Taxiway Bravo for ILS 4 is not at the runway threshold. It is well short of where ILS Hold Short lines are normally located for most runways. This makes me wonder about the the deviations and the number of Go-Arounds. It may be that there was airplane or vehicular traffic encroaching past the ILS Hold Short marker.

[@kjemad]

Nobody taking off rwy 4...

[@stevespra1]

Hmmm... That's a very good possibility.

[@Jetfuture737]

Weren't they using Rwy 13 for Departures?

[@daneav8]

I think he said in the video that there is no indications of someone in the ILS critical area…but maybe that isn’t official yet

[@revvyhevvy]

Duly noted, and thank you!

[@theflyingbisq]

MOR is the actual report name-“Mandatory Occurrence Report”, and the FLM is the ATC Front Line Manager-the Sup. A PRB is a position relief briefing-the exchange/briefing that happens when a new controller takes over a position from the one leaving.

[@caroltlw]

Do you think it's possible they shut off alarm for the previous flight (low altitude) and somehow cancelled the new alarm that should have gone off?

[@theflyingbisq]

@@caroltlw Local control (tower) is nearly all visual-primary responsibility is runways. There is likely radar available to the LGA tower controllers, but it’s for situational awareness, not radar services. That tower is so busy, it’s not likely they would have time to issue low altitude alerts based on that. If they got one, they would look out the window and verify before saying anything-just like what this controller did. I’m not aware that any alarms like that can be “turned off”. ATC is a very “CYA” activity. The default would be to warn/notify a pilot if there was any concern, rather than to mute anything that could end up biting you in the rear end.

[@caroltlw]

@@theflyingbisq OK, I was confused by the reference in the report to the ADSE/ATAP alert not going off and being investigated. I thought maybe that was something in the tower. Maybe "reset" is a better word for what I was thinking... flashing lights or something.

[@Nate_Higgins]

Thanks for the insight, Bisq

[@theflyingbisq]

@@caroltlwit’s a good question. It may have been so far east of the taxiway that ATAP didn’t make a prediction that the inbound was lined up with the taxiway. I’m not that familiar with the technical aspects of it. It’s only available at like 40 facilities.

[@davidmangold1838]

I’ve landed probably 180 times of in LGA, in good and bad weather, minimum visibility, windy, rainy and very snowy-in Barons, bonanzas, DC9’s, MD80’s, 727’s and 757’s and 767’s. It’s a very demanding airport, vfr and especially ifr-then add snow! Most airline pilots are intimidated before they even get close to the airport. The secret is to know your airplane, always be at the appropriate speed, land in the first 1000’ and don’t float in the flare. If you can do ALL that, you are not intimidated! Glad I’m retired, and don’t have to endure that any longer🤪

[@paulsherman51]

There needs to be some good mentor programs for the new gen's, maybe even write some pamphlets or make some training material/videos?

[@jaytowne8016]

I would only land at LGA if they paid me double.

[@Theb_rand_1]

If you fly your plane properly it’s really a piece of cake.

[@patrickjames1080]

767 impressive

[@kamakaziozzie3038]

If that is truly a “secret” it’s time to inform all pilots! The consequences of not being aware of this secret could potentially be the difference of success or failure🙏

[@badgerallen]

MOR is the mandatory occurrence report and the FLM is the Front Line Manager. 16:42

[@johnstoddart5523]

By the time the controller got out the words SWetc, which takes about three seconds, the plane would be about 600 feet closer. Sticking to your formality in this case could have killed everybody on board and more on the ground. When you see a brick falling on someones head, Do you say” Hey over there, A brick is falling on you” or do you scream watch out. It doesn’t matter if everyone has a look. There’s a time for formality and a time for commonsense. You don’t get consultation times in such an event. Lucky the Controller just gave ashout out instead of giving a formal call sigm.

[@NicolaW72]

Indeed, exactly.

[@ericfielding2540]

Amazing that the airplane was at 100 feet above the ground so far off course. Good job by the ATC controller taking immediate action during a shift change.

[@davec3400]

Hey at least the glideslope was working. If they been on course that would have put them right in the touchdown zone of Rwy 04.

[@swiftadventurer]

But if you’re breaking out of the soup at 5-600’, how do you get down to 100’ without noticing what is wrong? Descending at 500’/min, going from 500’ to 100’, that should easily be 30+ seconds in the clear, even accounting for any loss of altitude while spooling engines up.

[@davidt8087]

Female was flying thr approaches that's why. Pilot flying doesn't talk. After 2 failures and one of them being so massively pathetic it's ASTONISHING the pilot flying is even a fkn pilot much less airline pilot, the captain took over which is why the female was speaking on southwest after the second pathetic attempt

[@MaShcode]

“If I can land it there, I’ll land it anywhere…”🍎

[@maxj0930]

Sinatra got his inspiration from his brief ATP career….

[@awesomerpower]

Underrated 🍎💕

[@takamadson]

"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffin' glue..." 🙃🙃🙃🙃 "He's coming right at us!! Ahhhhhh!!" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@kendrapratt2098]

It’s like a disaster movie!

[@takamadson]

@@kendrapratt2098 More like a comedy movie. Look up Lloyd Bridges in the movie Airplane...

[@leroycharles9751]

Or quit the magic mushrooms.

[@judymarlene3414]

Joey,have you ever seen a grown man naked?

[@Rurik8118]

Surely you can’t be serious 🧐

[@lionheart082766]

The reason for the uncoupled approach with no AP on ILS 04 is because of the interference of the rwy 13 system or building at the intersection of rwy 13. I see VASA had the answer. I've flown the ILS 04 into LGA at mins, but the wx was not as windy although have flown into LGA when the wind was bad which is often. Disengaging the autopilot as soon as you intercept the LOC is pretty straight forward flying even if this is mins wx. That's our job! If your in an uncontrolled approach then you initiate a go-around. If you miss twice and wx is really bad you divert to your alternate. This is all textbook stuff. After your 2nd approach your probably at BINGO fuel anyway, so off to ALT, notify ATC and Company and get the heck out of it. Windshear is not fun at low altitude. Not too sure why SW was so far off track on the LOC. Did they intercept the false reading? ILS instrument equipment faulty? You intercept the LOC within 10 degrees of centreline 18nm out. Not a false Glideslope as they seemed to be at right height upon breakout. But that far off runway to the right is got to be at least a dot out? Glad to see they diverted and landed safely in PHL. I think they have some questions to answer. Why that far off centreline and not know it?

[@caroltlw]

Any chance they could have been picking up the wrong freq - like for a different nav beacon or something?

[@77leelg]

Based on other accidents I wonder if there were 4 eyes looking for the airport instead of 2. Seems like the stress and workload after a miss might have contributed to a loss of situational awareness.

[@zoso73]

Blancolirio is far and away the best aviation crash/incident commentary on KZbin. Thank you Captain Browne for keeping it real.

[@aross924]

He really is. Very black and white.

[@dks13827]

Crash videos ?

[@YodpilotID]

The gold standard

[@sa78247]

Once again Juan, thanks for explaining things where us "non-pilots" can understand, you ROCK!

[@syramento]

I was a controller in the old LGA tower, which was much closer to the runways than the current tower. I remember at least a couple times when we were scared that a missed approach/go around might hit the tower!

[@StSeya42069]

that controller was that called out the go around is a hero for noticing and acting on it. that jet was definitely crashing into the houses before the airport

[@steve83333]

Nonsense! The crew was probably already taking corrective action since they had broken under IMC and probably were quite shocked to see the tower ahead.

[@tking2822]

She was paying attention. Thank god

[@ronald6030]

As a retired SWA 73 capt. Hand flown ILS to mins would be a HUD flown ILS. So how can the crew be that far displaced? Twice? Sure the WX was a factor, judging by the number of go arounds. Hopefully the capt pulled the recorder CB.

[@Glegh]

Permission to buzz the tower?

[@PromotorFidei1]

Negative Ghost Rider, the pattern is full!

[@13699111]

Oh my goodness HA !!!

[@ronaldrowe7910]

Negative Maverick. My pants are full.

[@07blackdog]

😂

[@dks13827]

Cleared to buzz !

[@xplayman]

Been looking forward to this report. Thanks for getting on it.

[@GardenGuy1942]

Why, did you know something beforehand?

[@xplayman]

@@GardenGuy1942 VASAviation posted this on Mar 25, two days after the incident occurred, and his ADS-B analysis the next day. Been waiting for a write-up on any investigation into this.

[@GardenGuy1942]

@@xplayman I see. I ask because I don’t cause plane crashes. Thank you. Best, Dean

[@TyphoonVstrom]

This was so incredibly close to being a major accident. If that new controller wasn't so aware, assertive and transmitting a very clear no nonsense instruction, a few seconds later we would be talking about hundreds dead. There was 5 seconds at most in that becoming global news.

[@bullfrogger1208]

Wonder how many other planes in the area pulled up at her command. Never said who she was or who she was talking to. And she did a great job. Probably saved many lives. Tell her to take a deep breath. In only 8 hours and 59 minutes, counting lunch, she can call it a day.

[@wendygerrish4964]

Approach frequently. Expediancy trumps, there was 1 second to communicate with.

[@wturn5354]

Her performance was POOR, panicked and didn’t use a call sign!

[@revvyhevvy]

So what! The first thing she saw after setting her coffee down was a 737 headed for the her IN THE TOWER!!!

[@danielbooker3508]

@@wturn5354Are you sitting in an armchair?

[@KeithWahamaki]

Thank you Juan for reporting on this, and indeed all of your aviation safety reports! And I also want to acknowledge the pilots in this report, all of them. They all responded correctly too! Not only the Southwest pilots, but also the other pilots who went around, and the other controllers too. This was just a very nasty time to be flying into LGA.

[@igclapp]

The Southwest pilots messed up big time. No other plane got 10 degrees off the localizer and 150 feet below minimums.

[@james_chatman]

@@igclapp This should be a learning experience if the process works correctly.

[@igclapp]

@@james_chatman This was apparently some type of CRM failure. The PM was not monitoring properly. Hopefully they'll find out why and it will be a lesson learned to avoid a future recurrence.

[@gregoryknox4444]

I did a lot of approaches into LGA and ILS #4 always made me nervous especially when it was foggy and raining Good Report Juan.

[@jonchowe]

I was out walking in that rain, right under the approach path that day in Brooklyn. Seeing the planes popping out of (and back in to) the clouds was cool! I may have even seen this flight, definitely saw some SW planes.

[@revvyhevvy]

That had to 'trippy'!

[@VodkaFanClub]

She definitely saved the day! I imagine how I would have been shaking after an incident like that. So great it worked out good and everyone could walk away harmless with the new things to learn!

[@tau3457]

A whole flight crew and tower as soon as they realised what nearly happened.

[@AkilanNarayanaswamy]

Victor from VASAviation did a follow up where he showed that the reason for the prohibitive on autopilot coupling is due to a hotel that was built that interferes with the localizer

[@blancolirio]

not sure that's the issue...

[@DonMaloy]

@@blancolirio Sounds like a case of flying with the autopilot on a little too much.

[@daveg-Vancouver_Island]

That sounds suspicious, I’m not a pilot at all but you’d think they’d take that into consideration before building a hotel that could interfere with landing. Lol

[@rohit4242]

@@daveg-Vancouver_Islandthe hotel was probably already there

[@bearmotorcycle7305]

Every directional antenna has a lobe. Also, RF ducking/reflection for the geography (body of water, building roof/wall materials). During my prior life performing tech ops in commercial broadcasting, I read some of the trade publications. There was an article on ducting, when a body of water causes undesired multipath reflection (false echoes). Another article on tower service maintenance personnel safety, where FM stations operating in the lowest FM frequencies must significantly decrease transmitter power to avoid cooking balls, whereas those in the 100's seemed to be a lesser personnel safety issue as the energy instead reflects. Horizontal ILS transmits at 108 to 112 MHz. So, now I am wondering if something temporarily blocked the directional ILS ground transmitters' antenna array, causing the aircraft ILS receiver to lock onto a lobe that reflects off the tower or water, coupled with not looking out the windshield (or nose cone visually blocking due to AoA).

[@DaveJ-BCMA]

Outstanding video and explanation. I've been a passenger flying into 4 at LGA, it felt like we were going to hit a building! I can't imagine how frightening it would be to miss that bad. Your video was clear and concise. I am very interested to learn more.

[@gerrycarmichael1391]

I think that call for the reason for the two go around was an internal coordination communication between local control and the approach control. That being said LGA can be tricky in that type of weather. All sorts of wind shear and you get rotor off of the buildings which can make for a rough day. The reason that the autopilot isn’t authorized is because there are two very busy roadways very close to the approach end of the runway. The Grand Central Parkway and inside the airport perimeter, the airport service road which is not controlled by ATC and particularly when any large vehicle crosses the extended center line on the service road the localizer will windshield wiper. Sometimes it can be very subtle and not easily detectable by the flight crew. After some 30 years of going in and out of there I’ve seen it all including many times having the loc needle bang from side to side which of course initiated a go around. The perimeter roadway is just beyond the ILS critical area and crosses the approach end of the runway.

[@FreshTillDeath56]

Ahh, VasAviation and Blancolirio, like fine salmon and white wine! Just perfect together!

[@jirimondo]

Even better some wild copper river salmon with a nice Pacific NW Pinot Noir...

[@revvyhevvy]

Yep, I had caught Victor's (Vasaviation) post hours before! He was ON IT immediately!! Fully expected Juan to chime in, unless he was over the Pacific somewhere!!

[@Bloodyack]

Add some MentourPilot to that and it's the trifecta.

[@ChristinaChrisR]

100%

[@2760ade]

More like beer and a kebab IMO!😂😂

[@lawman5511]

Notice that after the second go around, different voice on the radio. Sounds like the PF and PM switched places. Perhaps the Captain took the controls. Just speculating.

[@ranimosk]

yes, what I am thinking

[@TNOutdoorsman510]

Exactly my Thought also

[@billmoran3812]

I believe the female voice was the captain who made the decision to divert.

[@matthewthompson8706]

@@billmoran3812She was pilot flying though for both approaches.

[@fhowland]

Diversity hiring.. that’s the real story here. How long before people die?

[@mlehky]

The “Falcon” reference is to an FAA analysis system called “Falcon View” which allows for playback of recorded radar and voice data.

[@jimcaufman2328]

I was base at La Garbage back in the 80 with Eastern. Low visibility approaches were always a bitch because of turbulence, aircraft spacing Ney York traffic congestion. It has changed very little in the last 35 years. Not enough runways, too short runways and the added pressure of the whole situation. At least they took down the sky jump at the end of the runway into Flushing Bay.

[@jeremykatzeff2628]

This has happened before. I lived off the end of rwy 4 in Jackson Heights for 7 years. Normally aircraft would approach diagonally behind my building a several blocks to the west. However one evening back about 2010-2011 in similarly bad weather an aircraft came right over my building a lot lower than it should have. Then it happened 2 more times in a row. Looking at Juan's screen at 12:33 brought me right back as that would have been the same flight path as that night. Scared me enough where I wanted to call the Port Authority to report it but after the third aircraft I think they changed runways to 22. I also do not recall if the new tower was live yet. Thanks for the report.

[@brian7908]

PRB- Position Relief Briefing. That’s why the voice changed. A new controller had just taken the position.

[@christibritton1436]

Probably hadn't sat down yet, likely had just walked in, saw something that shouldn't be happening, grabbed the approach mike & yelled.

[@jonathanbott87]

​@@christibritton1436probably didn't even know the flight, just needed to alert anybody & everybody

[@tywheeler7131]

I once flew an ILS where the signal identified and it came in, but it was waaaaaay off. Having plates live as a gps reference was invaluable as you could see it tracking way left. Turned out, someone had hit the glide slip with a mower shortly before and threw it off. Pretty wild that we don’t have redundancy for ILS. At this point, we should have gps backed up reference systems to see redundancy early and continuously in the approach!

[@seldoon_nemar]

People need to stop making Juan have to do these reports.... 😢

[@noonehere1793]

YEP!…..👍👍

[@MichaelOfRohan]

Stop voting for the same stupid people who neglect their post.

[@sarahmacintosh6449]

Agreed. (But we would all miss him so much!)

[@Scotts865]

When pigs fly

[@jerroldbates355]

No one is making Juan Brown do anything. He's a man's man.

[@Garythefireman66]

I live on Long Island and it was monsoon season on the day this occurred. I'm glad they made it to Philadelphia without further incidents. Thanks for your breakdown Juan. You and Victor are a great team 👍🏻

[@ellend7680]

They first said PHL but then corrected that they wanted to go to PIT, their first alternate. It is about 4:40 in VASAviation video.

[@sheykh90]

AFS Guidance Engineer here.. this looks like a typical case of LOC deviation beyond 1 dot.. The fact that the chart published AP use not authorized, and the fact the flight crew did not see this deviation on the ND, points us to believe that there was some sort of interference in the LOC signals. Meaning AP was most probably ON and the aircraft was correctly "tracking" the LOC signals, however this LOC signal was itself "bad or incorrect", but neither the AP computer nor the pilots know this. This interference (deviation is LOC signals) can be due to poor shielding of the LOC antennae (at the end of the RWY 04) due to ground operations (aircraft taxiing in front of the antenna). LGA is located in a very dense (EM radio signals) area with TEB and JFK in close proximity, which could be prone to frequent signal interferences especially in case of enhanced LOC capture approaches. I was once analysing an incident report from Qatar Airways captain flying in approach to DOH RWY 34R, and the aircraft was targeting (nose alligned) straight to the Banana Island and clearly deviating from runway 34R centerline.

[@richwightman3044]

Why is the ILS to 22 and 13 not affected by JFK and TEB? EWR is also an airport that exists in that area.

[@FamiliarAnomaly]

This is digital transmission of 1's and 0's you are talking about? It's different information if the antenna is in a different position? What?

[@JeremyAkersInAustin]

@@FamiliarAnomaly Who said anything about it being digital? If you're not aware of how ILS works, maybe google "How does ILS work". Wikipedia has a good article on it. Not sure why you're assuming it's digital?

[@gavinjenkins899]

@@FamiliarAnomaly The localizer is an array of antennae that all transmit on slightly different frequencies, and the plane triangulates from them. If one or more of them are blocked by another plane, garbage, trucks, or even too much snow, then the triangulation can be wrong and distort the inferred geometry. The system uses the relative strength of each signal, not some coded message in 1s and 0s. So if a plane was taxiing too close, it could have sent that landing plane off in a veering direction but not any other plane that day. Also because other planes were following the rules and not using auto pilot.

[@brian7908]

FLM- Front Line Manager. Just the ATC supervisor on duty.

[@carljohnson5817]

Thanks!

[@blancolirio]

Thanks Carl!

[@abiliopilides9436]

I've been waiting for this one. Good job as always Cap. !

[@GardenGuy1942]

Did you cause this?

[@GardenGuy1942]

@OfficialBlancolirio8 do you want my credit card information?

[@letsgofly5222]

Possible explanation. Upon breaking out below the ceiling at about 600 feet, the pilot visually transitioned to what they thought was the runway. The transition from instruments to a visual on the runway is a critical phase, especially with reduced visibility as was the situation here. “Rabbit” lights, VASI/PAPI, and a quick peak at the ILS deviation bars can help avoid biting off on something that looks like a runway but isn’t (a taxiway, car lights, a roadway, etc.)

[@SeanHollingsworth]

That controller needs to be recognized for her immediate and clear action. She prevented absolute certain carnage! Clearly, there are some definite shortcomings with critical equipment at that facility. Maybe this incident forces the necessary changes.

[@Gundog55]

SWA has a reputation for being fast on final but not sure if that was the case here. SWA also has the HUD installed which makes a hand flown ILS a lot easier than a Flight Director aided appch.

[@Raoul_Volfoni]

HUD good point.

[@carygrant8796]

HUD on Captain’s side only on Non-max airplanes. Not sure about their Max’s since I didn’t get to ride on their jump seat as there were so few in the fleet when I retired in 2020.

[@carygrant8796]

My conjecture, F/O was PF, Capt PM. No HUD on F/O side so the F/O is relying on Primary Flight Display. All the majors have a lot of inexperienced crews right now with the retirements and COVID buyouts. As the Captain, you have to balance letting the F/O fly the approach in crappy conditions to gain experience and confidence and knowing or not knowing when it might be beyond their skill base. That inexperience level might be present in both seats. As for when to divert, my limit was two. If I had two shots at an approach and things didn’t improve, it was time to divert. Fate is telling you something.

[@steve83333]

@@carygrant8796Best comment on this thread ! Totally agree

[@Gundog55]

@OfficialBlancoliriou Thanks Juan. Another thing that may of been an issue but it’s been a while so I might be off base. The B737 has an anomaly that’s called “Stand Off”. If you engage APPROACH with the autopilot on too soon it actually flys a parallel path to the LOC. If they missed the note that prohibits an autopilot flown approach and did this that would explain the path flown. This is why briefing an approach each and every time is so important.

[@garyvale8347]

Juan, thank you for explaining this incident and making it easy to understand , for a non-pilot aircraft enthusiast such as myself, as to exactly what happened .....great channel !!!

[@twoturnin1]

Had several of these WS events on 4 ils flying BOS/LGA shuttle. Never had Loc bend at LGA 4 --however did have the 36 C ils cat 3 in CLT bend several times. Worst was 100kt tail wind on 4 R ILS BOS up to OM then 0 wind as reported by all preceding. flts. Smooth ride also in 75 with the good old RB211RR spooled and ready to TOGA.

[@JDHitchman]

Sounds like the controller needs to get a shout out for being alert.

[@gezac440]

Ive done that approach for 30 plus years, and yes you do get loc scaling on the ILS 4. Its caused by a road near the loc antenna, that when trucks pass the antenna you get the scaling. The SW 737 most likly had the auto pilot on.

[@donallan6396]

So, the ILS approach, which is certified as a precision approach, is anything but precision. One would wonder how this approach could be published when it is subject to anomalous behavior..

[@gezac440]

Yup its been like that for as long as I can remember. Thats why its call LaGabage.

[@K20017]

@@donallan6396 This is an autopilot limitation which the approach plate specifically states that "AUTOPILOT COUPLED APPROACH NOT AUTHORIZED". Whether or not you are using an autopilot has nothing to do with the precision of the approach. Some autopilots can have high gain when trying to track a localizer or glideslope signal which, if disturbed and very quickly goes full scale, the AP might aggressively maneuver the aircraft in an undesired state in order to catch it. These approaches are flown, tested, and retested by FAA "Flight Check" aircraft in order to maintain the integrity of instrument approaches.

[@ACPilot]

Third world airport. Have never come across a large airport with that kind of limitation.

[@K20017]

@@ACPilot Columbus, Pittsburgh, Miami, Monterey....

[@CalPil0t]

When I flew out of EWR , I specifically would bid to avoid any pairing that went into LGA at all. Cabo trips were my first bid...

[@revvyhevvy]

Why would that be???

[@CalPil0t]

@@revvyhevvy As Juan said, LGA is a very demanding environment, and from Newark, westbound trips to LAX or SFO, also demanding, at least were good layovers. The trips involving LGA generally weren't as productive and not worth the hassle. Watching the whales migrating north from the hotel at Cabo San Lucas in February was much more enjoyable.

[@charlesreediii5083]

You could hear the near panic voice of the tower controller, she saw a lot of jet in the window. Wow.

[@dashriprock4308]

She did her job.

[@gracelandone]

Fascinating. Thanks for this, Juan. Flying has become so common that it’s easy for us backseaters to forget how really complicated it actually is.

[@spruecorner2818]

Wow!.....it's so good to hear that a real pair of eyes averted an absolute catastrophe!....

[@ryandavis7491]

PRB - Position Relief Briefing. A new controller was taking over the position, and the (required, and recorded) relief briefing took place from the controller being relieved to the oncoming controller

[@leokimvideo]

That lady ATC was very firm in her call and a hero, pilot unable to explain his huge near miss and near crash. I think that pilot will be driving Taxis in NY from here on.

[@tcpratt1660]

Driving a taxi in Manhattan would be more difficult and more stressful than landing at LaGuardia...maybe he could be an engineer's mate on MV Dali...erp...quality control at Boeing?

[@cassandratq9301]

Let's wait for NTSB. There is a possibility of equipment failure (glideslope).

[@djstacktrace]

7:35 notice both the pilot and the pilot making radio communication. Makes me wonder about the cockpit around this time.

[@PaulLoveless-Cincinnati]

I spent 4 months on that island just past the end of runway 04. Glad to have that part of my life behind me.

[@landshark7154]

Rikers I presume

[@PaulLoveless-Cincinnati]

@@landshark7154 Yes sir.

[@skyboy1956]

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time ! !

[@daveh5635]

WOW! WOW! What a scary situation! Thank GOD for the eagle-eyed young lady Controller! Bless you, Juan, for bringing these Reports timely. I have been a pilot since age 30>>Never experienced ANYTHING quite this bizarre!

[@donmoore7785]

"We'd like to divert - we are too embarrassed to land here."

[@markiangooley]

Can’t blame them

[@28th_St_Air]

They were not the only flight that had to abort.

[@markmclaughlin2690]

We’d like to divert long enough to over write the CVR

[@Bill_Woo]

The tower told them to divert. and as to the anxiety level of the flight crew, that's only Juan's perception. But clearly flight after flight after flight were having EXTREME landing difficulty there. IMO they should have been on the edge of or outright closing the airfield. JB repeatedly said that conditions were terrible.

[@igclapp]

​@@Bill_WooIn the video, the male pilot tells ATC they want to try the approach again (a third time), then he says wait a minute, then the female pilot comes on and says we'd like to divert.

[@TheSullie1]

11:46 With regard to the localizer getting wavy for the 04 approach, I think I can see the reason. Runway Drive passes directly in front of the right side of the localizer antenna array at the foot of the runway. The Q48 bus, and some airport shuttle buses and other tall broad sided vehicles pass directly in front of the line of sight of the localizer antenna. That's probably why the localizer antenna gets all "screwy" and you can't fly that approach autopilot coupled.

[@janerikkant3646]

Actually, Runway Drive passes directly in front of the runway 22 localizer array. The runway 4 localizer array is located at the NE side of the runway, on the water.

[@MikeSmartCastle]

I'm not convinced the voice asking for reason for the 2 go arounds was the same voice as SW147 pilot, but certainly sounded the same. The first go around was the pilots call, so why would he ask "reason for go around" call that he himself made? And the lady ATC said "he" twice as if she wasn't talking directly to the pilot. Second, I don't think it ws a shift change for the ATC, I think she just jumped on freqentcy when she saw the airliner. The origial male voice tower controller was heard asking reason for go around for another flight.But all'n'all great catch for the lady controller. Nice Job!

[@user-pf5xq3lq8i]

Yes she must be rewarded. But it should never come to 1 piece of swiss cheese in the first place. System fail.

[@eightysea3780]

PRB in the summary is Position Relief Briefing. The second controller was the one who just took over the position.

[@JBN137]

The second 'go around' was called by the controller, after which the PNF asked "why?" "Duh. Because you were about to crash (into us)," she replied.

[@OMGWTFLOLSMH]

The SW147 voice sounds identical to me. Maybe he misspoke or was high on something. It was an awfully weird question, since he _did_ declare the first go-around. It's all very strange. Was the PIC intoxicated? How do you deviate off the flight path so dramatically?

[@MikeSmartCastle]

@@JBN137 After the second go around, I'm not sure it was the PNF becuase he asked "What was the reason for the two go arounds?" If it was the PNF, he would have been the one who called "go around" on the first one. Why would he ask the reason for "two go arouunds" if he is the one that called the first go around?

[@MichaelJM]

At 9:15 I think you're right with your text on screen that it's not Southwest asking for the go around reasons (though the voice sounds similar). Tower replies as if it were someone else saying "This guy was not in line with the runway at all. He was like east of the final. He was not gonna land the runway."

[@justu2bnit17]

Just guessing here, but the only scenario that doesn't have two major airline pilots ignoring full scale deflection of their localizer and glide slope indications is that MAYBE they didn't select the Approach mode. After the first go around, they would typically re-select the ILS 4 approach in the FMC which would populate the points on their MFDs for situational awareness. They would be flying the pattern on autopilot and then need to select either the LOC and APP mode when they get that last vector and cleared for the approach. IF, and that's a BIG IF, they intercepted the FMC GPS final approach course but neglected to select the LOC and subsequently the APP mode (depending on how the approach clearance was issued), they would be flying the ILS 4 approach from the FMC GPS points (they would also have to be in LNAV and VNAV modes as well) instead of the localizer and glide slope. If they were task saturated and not seeing the underlying raw data, the command bars would look somewhat normal. But, that would mean they flew the ILS 4 based on GPS which may account for the ground track error. I'm guessing that they still had the ILS frequencies tuned but didn't get a GPWS "GLIDE SLOPE" aural warning because they stayed within GS limits as they drifted East due to GPS inaccuracies. The final "say reason for go around" (Sounds just like the Pilot Monitorings male voice) indicates significant task saturation.

[@Cappy22279]

I agree. This is totally feasible. Task saturation, removed from “normal” ops. The scenario you describe explains the near perfect offset of 1400’. Descending below minimums without runway in sight just compounded this mess. Technology is wonderful IF you use it properly.

[@sveinfarstad3897]

Thank you! Mr Brown

[@blancolirio]

Thanks Svein!

[@jamescole1786]

4/6/24..LGA Tower..some > very alert eyes < (? Ground or Supervisor? as noticeable voice change from minutes earlier voice ) urging SW 147 'Go Around'...Fly RW heding, climb 2000ft...thus A/C > unable to see via no vis conditions < avoids crash landing..into LGA Tower! A+ Juan ! What excellent 3rd party analytical references you have at your (computer) fingertips !! Great visual & voice 'real time' presentations you collect for all we YT aviation enthusiasts. Another fantastic job Juan! Your work/hobby educates all watching just how detailed & complex commercial aviation is & must be for t safety of everyone, in the air & on the ground. Thx again!

[@skenzyme81]

7:50 "you were like - not on the approach" you can tell she was SHOOK

[@wadepatton2433]

She's just starting her shift and BAMMO HERE COMES A 737 wide and low and straight at her---datgummed straight she was rightfully excited with a full shot of Cortisol and Adrenaline to start her work day. Such stress hormones will challenge your "best language skills".

[@MrHimynameisdanny]

I hope that controller was recognized for that go around. She saved hundreds of lives! That was seconds from a huge disaster.

[@gregg3138]

I’d bet they had already initiated the go-around before the controller said anything.

[@MrHimynameisdanny]

@@gregg3138 they clearly didn’t…

[@straybullitt]

It's what air traffic controllers get paid to do.... To prevent exactly this sort of thing from happening. We don't need to give "atta-girls" and "atta-boys" to people who are just doing their job. 🤷‍♂️

[@MrHimynameisdanny]

@@straybullitt you leave your shopping cart in the middle of the parking lot, don’t you.

[@straybullitt]

@MrHimynameisdanny I actually NEVER do that, Danny. I just don't see the need to give accolades to public servants who we pay to sit on their asses most of the time, and then do a job when we need them to do it. It was all right there in the job description when they were hired. The sense of entitlement that people have nowadays is incredible.

[@kewkabe]

Their lateral path took them straight toward the LGA VOR which is located just southeast of the runway 22 threshhold. Could they have been hand flying in the wrong navigation mode (still on "direct LGA" on the primary display), wondered why there was no glideslope on the primary so used a backup display for that?

[@pullchocks72]

Interesting observation. Was trying to think how they could possibly be tracking to the VOR instead of localizer. Could only think of one, and it's a far stretch. They just did the ILS to 4 so frequencies, course and minimums would already be set and no reason to change them between approaches. 737 ILS approaches are flown in "approach" mode. Approach mode wouldn't work with a VOR frequency tuned. Can't imagine they'd be in LNAV/VNAV for any reason on a second ILS approach. Even if accidentally in LNAV/VNAV, the lateral path would be to the runway threshold and not the VOR. Unless reloading the FMS got royally messed up during vectors back. Kinda stumped on how this could happen. Far out scenario is one pilot had the VOR freq tuned in standby on their nav radio as a backup situational awareness tool (technique used by some pilots in the weather in case both FMS's crap out), after the first go around and hand off to approach control for another approach, accidentally toggled nav frequency from ILS to VOR instead of comm frequency, and never set it back because of task saturation. But if that were the case, the primary flight displays would be showing different indications if one pilot had ILS freq and the other had VOR freq. If they originally went missed for being unstable, they seem like the prudent type of crew to go missed for conflicting data on primary displays if VOR was accidentally tuned. But... why they didn't go missed at or below mins the second time is a big surprise. Definitely human factors going on. Hopefully the findings will be public one day, lot of questions about this one. Glad tower saw it and made the call.

[@yoco6110]

Thanks for the summary Juan. Unfortunately I still have more questions than answers on this one, definitely an eye opening moment, just glad it didn’t end the way it could have.

[@Chishannicon]

Imagine showing up to take over your controller shift for the day and the very first thing you see is a huge aircraft that low to the ground and that far off course. Must have been all kinds of scary and confusing.

[@DoNotEatPoo]

That's usually how my Mondays start out.

[@TheVillageIdiotUk]

This is a remarkably concerning incident. Thanks to Juan and the many knowledgeable commentators for their considered input to the discussion. I look forward to further analysis and official investigation report. I do fear and feel that the clock is ticking and the Swiss cheese holes will align again one day in US airspace on a busy commercial flight. I sincerely hope that I’m wrong. I commend the controller taking over the position, although no doubt she will take some flak for missing the appropriate call sign.

[@ltbphoto]

No indication from FAA's AIN notices or the NTSB that they're even actively investigating this which is wild.

[@user-pf5xq3lq8i]

Big divert to burn off the 737 tapes?? Blanco should have followed the rest of the flight..

[@kimjunguny]

@@user-pf5xq3lq8i they said their alt was Pittsburg which that being their alt in their flight plan is completely possible

[@skyboy1956]

LGA-PHL is shorter than LGA-PIT

[@DaveGled]

@@skyboy1956 Why wouldn't they just divert to Kennedy or Teterboro?

[@stevehart6847]

Most likely because the wx at those airports was similar and their fuel situation dictated they go to a further better wx destination.

[@bluetx54]

as usual, great reporting, factual and important description. Thank you once again for your analysis......big thumbs up

[@joemartino6976]

Great stuff Juan, as usual. As someone who was born and raised in NYC, I should mention no one....and I do mean no one....ever refers to a highway in New York as a "freeway." The highway that skirts alongside LGA is the Grand Central Parkway (parkway translates to no trucks/trailers allowed).

[@desireegoulett69]

Imagine being an ATC and the first minute of your shift you see a jumbo jet heading at you in the tower....hey boss, can I do a one and done today...wow

[@RyanRoat]

LGA TWR dialogue at 9:34 sounds to me like "This guy was not aligned...He was, like, east of the final." It sounds like they were talking to a third party.

[@wendygerrish4964]

Or still in the midst of a shift or position turnover

[@beenaplumber8379]

I assumed that was an internal ATC communication. Did that go out on frequency?

[@makingbiscuits24-7]

I think the center was asking the tower why there were two go arounds and tower responded that the plane was misaligned. Odd that it was picked up with other transmissions.

[@seagullsbtn]

Bit like a stuck mic problem.

[@davidpoulin6961]

@@beenaplumber8379I think so

[@mendel5106]

I doubt the ILS was faulty as many planes have landed safely prior to SW and even the planes coming in after SW, on short final, seemed to be perfectly aligned to the runway. Those 3D models are amazing! Excellent report.

[@Raoul_Volfoni]

On top of that, SW was well aligned during their first approach

[@SteamCrane]

@@Raoul_Volfoni On the taxiway?

[@Boisebus]

Thanks Juan. Good job. Lots of unanswered questions here. Some questions can not be asked nor even be considered if you get my drift. Been there done that. Good luck to all the new major airline Captains keep the blue side up.

[@terriestapley5475]

Excellent Video!!! Thank You, We Appreciate Your Knowledge and Commentary✈️

[@carolinelvsewe]

Amazing report! Thank you

[@szargo8324]

FLM stands for front line manager. Basically a Supervisor was manning the watch during the time of the incident. CIC is controller in charge and that is when a controller is acting in a supervisory capacity while an FLM/SUP is on a break or dependent on staffing.

[@GinaKayLandis]

Wow, this is quite distressing. I wonder since they were so far off course and so low, and if Autopilot was not on, would there be "pull up" or "terrain" warnings? At 100 ft, they were not only in danger of hitting the tower, they were right over homes or offices and risking barreling into those as well. That other ATC person really did save the day. Thanks, Juan, for the overview. I'm looking forward to more info when available.

[@williegillie5712]

Nice work on your report Juan. It really helped understand what conditions were like at that airport for landing traffic. Good thing one of the controllers had an eye out the window when flt. 147 was coming in way to the right of the threshold. Wow that was close. Not a very good day to land at that airport.

[@Digital-Dan]

My first air flight ever was in 1966, in a 727 out of Cincinnati to LGA. Sat in last row between the engines. Every sound seemed "wrong." Landing was over water until touchdown, at super high speed, since 27's had to land hot. Fairly terrifying first flight over all. All uphill from there.

[@billsmith5166]

Yow! That female controller saved some lives.

[@paulsherman51]

Another angel; hall of fame next to the Tampa FA; Haneda crew; IHOP approach pilots; (did I miss anyone?)

[@fhowland]

And a female pilot almost caused a disaster

[@billsmith5166]

@@fhowland I missed it, was she the PIC or the SIC?

[@fhowland]

@@billsmith5166 PF, you can hear when the male pilot takes over

[@horizon42q]

Yepper

[@collectorguy3919]

Box 4 "Significant Occurrence?" is marked "No". I know it's just paperwork, but a near catastrophe deserves a "Yes" so that it can be taken seriously.

[@matthewclark9012]

As always, outstanding Juan ! 🎉❤

[@wayneroyal3137]

Juan, I have said “ I need to work things out” before. A learning experience. They were shaken for sure. It will be interesting to see who was the captain and who was FO. Great breakdown. Thank goodness for the heads up ATC

[@moxievintage1390]

"Stand by......time to bust out the big mouse".... lol.... ...."breaking out of the weather...... and coming right at them...''....yup, that gives us a great visual of what the ATC was facing😳!! And with seconds to spare.....wow. "....what were the reasons for the 2 go around...?" I HOPE that was someone else! Great analysis as always....thanks, Juan! And even my dog knows, WHENEVER she hears your voice, she might as well find a good spot to sleep for the afternoon-- Mama"s probably heading down yet another aviation rabbit hole!✌🏽❤‍🔥 BUT! If she hears the Air Safety Institute guys, she knows THAT MEANS, we're heading out on a walk.......and she hangs out by the front door, taunting the cat that she gets to go to the park, lol. 😆