Swarm Control (Demaree) with Keith Jardine: 21 Apr 2022

At our April monthly meeting, Keith Jardine educates us (with wit and humor) about swarm prevention using the Demaree method. Find out how to keep your hives so as to prevent congestion and give the queen plenty of room to lay.
Proprietor of Jardine Apiaries and former president of the Chester County Beekeepers Association, Keith Jardine has kept bees for over forty years. He manages over 100 hives, with a winter survival rate of over 98%, with abundant honey and wax surplus.

[@terryserafin2622]

Thank you for this awesome presentation… from the NE PA area. Wilkes-Barre/Scranton region. I am a newbie and appreciated this wealth of knowledge

[@WIBeek]

Great presentation!! You for sure blew the lady's mind watching on the right. :)

[@homerspringfarms4653]

😂😂😂 I had to zoom in on her, so funny

[@TheHobbyShooter]

Another great video. I've tried a Demaree split in the past with disastrous results. Brood in the upper box chilled and died, and the colony never did get back to full strength after that. I learned from your video that while the colony was big enough that they were building swarm cells, they were just one deep, and it was too early in the season. I'm going to have to try this again with a double deep colony. Thanks!

[@PaulRobbins-uu2ew]

My buddy broke his back and can't work his 14, long-established hives that he started with this spring. He has had 21 swarms to date [April 21,2023] from those 14 original hives. Swarms that were either caught or visually verified in beard clusters too high up in the trees to catch. There were 4 swarms yesterday (I captured 3,only 2 stayed) and 2 swarms today (both captured). I had never had honeybees before last week, now I have 3 hives . I wish I hadn't waited until I was almost 55 to start beekeeping. I've caught 8 swarms, and 3 were for me....i hope he calls me again tomorrow for the 3rd day in a row....Bee-haa! I'm glad they're swarming because it's allowing me to get a few hives from my own county at a bargain; just the cost of the hives.

[@Oldmanwithagoldpan]

Awesom man, ive captured 2 in the past 8 days which brought my hive count to 3. My first hive showed up and moved in voluntarily to my first box last spring and it swarmed about 2 and a half weeks ago. It was sad watching them fly away and ball up in the top of the neighbors pine. But alls well that ends well.

[@peterbees1954]

That is a Perfect explanation, Im in the UK so I will have to see if my cut-off date will probably change, Thank You for your Time.

[@TheBaconWizard]

The purpose of a 2nd queen excluder is to ensure that any emergency cells you might miss don't give you a queen running about the entire colony. It's mostly unnecessary but it's a safety measure some may appreciate.

[@KeithJardineBee]

I use a second excluder to indicate to myself next inspection that I could not find the queen and / or she may be in the top area. Makes finding the queen easier.

[@davidmaloney2724]

I think it’s also good to prevent two queens from killing each other as could happen with just one qx

[@atlas4225]

Wow! You presented this as if it were for farmilarized beekeepers with a fast appetite for information. Well done and I am now subscribed. This presentation has the content value of any 20 others i tend to. Thank you

[@DavidHarrod]

Thanks Atlas! All credit for this goes to Keith Jardines who made the presentation. It's very good. I used this method last season and produced a record crop for me even in a difficult year. It does work.

[@KeithJardineBee]

I would like to do this presentation again to include some more details. There seems to be evidence that leaving the queen cells to immerge at the top may not cause swarming. I experimented with 4 hives with no swarms. I need to perform this with at least 20 colonies and for a few years. It is easy to perform a split with a 2 queen colony after the nectar flow has finished. During 2023 I produced over 12000 lb. of honey from 72 hives. This was including the colonies that did not produce any honey. I now always place the frame on which the queen was found into position 2 at the bottom. The next week the queen will be on about position 4 to 6. I always try not to shake the queen if possible. Some people state that this is not healthy for the bees. 🤣. I did not lose a single hive in the winter of 2022 and only one in 2023. I overwinter over 100 and sell about 30 before the season👍. (and work full time😥)

[@TheBaconWizard]

That surprises me, I would think that the new top colony would seek to fill up their brood chamber with honey rather than going below where there is more room. Very interesting.

[@judekraus2946]

Keith, I just listened to your talk and it was an answer to several prayers! I was desperate to not double my hives and to avoid swarms. I found the Demaree method, but no one to answer questions about it. So, I started the experiment in April with 2 and now a 3rd hive and things are looking good. I am so happy to have found you and this video, your insight, experience and tips have made my life so much easier. You answered every question I could think of. I will be sharing this with my fellow beekeepers here in NE Ohio.

[@beemandjl]

On your bench there are groves between each part of the platform. They are about 1/2 inches apart and about 3/8 inches deep. I pop riveted a piece of 1/2 x1/2 inch aluminum angle between the 2 outer slots. This elevates anything you set on the bench. This will help to not crush bees or even a queen if she were to be on the bottom of the box you have placed there. You can set the box flat which is safer from being knocked over or off the bench. I have been using this bench elevation for years. I am 74 years old and work 40 to 50 hives. My back says thank you. I have also noticed if I set a box on its end the bees cluster all over the edge and bottom which is exposed. I find that if you set it flat the bees stay up in the boxOn your bench there are groves between each part of the platform. They are about 1/2 inches apart and about 3/8 inches deep. I pop riveted a piece of 1/2 x1/2 inch aluminum angle between the 2 outer slots. This elevates anything you set on the bench. This will help to not crush bees or even a queen if she were to be on the bottom of the box you have placed there. You can set the box flat which is safer from being knocked over or off the bench. I have been using this bench elevation for years. I am 74 years old and work 40 to 50 hives. My back says thank you. I have also noticed if I set a box on its end the bees cluster all over the edge and bottom which is exposed. I find that if you set it flat the bees stay up in the box and it makes it easier to control the bees.

[@beemandjl]

On your bench there are groves between each part of the platform. They are about 1/2 inches apart and about 3/8 inches deep. I pop riveted a piece of 1/2 x1/2 inch aluminum angle between the 2 outer slots. This elevates anything you set on the bench. This will help to not crush bees or even a queen if she were to be on the bottom of the box you have placed there. You can set the box flat which is safer from being knocked over or off the bench. I have been using this bench elevation for years. I am 74 years old and work 40 to 50 hives. My back says thank you. I have also noticed if I set a box on its end the bees cluster all over the edge and bottom which is exposed. I find that if you set it flat the bees stay up in the box and it makes it easier to control the bees.

[@DavidHarrod]

@@beemandjl David, thank you for this comment. I will have to review the video to figure out exactly what you're suggesting. I hope to be working 50 hives when I'm 74 so I really want to get it. If you have a video showing what you do I'd love to see it.

[@KeithJardineBee]

Hi, I also riveted an aluminum angle at the end to prevent the hive bodies sliding off when working uneven ground. I invert the outer cover on one side of the bench and then the inner cover on the other side to prevent crushing bees.

[@theoeicher]

@KeithJardineBee: This is a very interesting presentation, Thank you! Could the reason for the queen excluder be that the top box could used to make a new queen, and this way this new queen cannot make its way down to the bottom box and sting the bottom queen through the excluder?

[@rosem7042]

I'm definitely going to try this out with one of my hives this year using a Flow super as the buffer box. I'm hoping that will help me keep that middle section light... er.

[@DavidHarrod]

This could be a killer application for Flow frames. Keith harvests continuously out of that middle box. He often harvests 'unripe' honey in order to give the bees room to when there is a lot coming in. He keeps it in the frames and puts it in a room with a dehumidifier to reduce the moisture below 18%. This might be more difficult with the Flow frames. Or you'd have to - sometimes - dehydrate the honey outside the frames. At any rate it would be cool to see how it worked. Keith also gets very unusual honey's with this approach because his hives are so strong they put up surpluses of things like maple and purple dead nettle honey. These bloom very early around here, so most of us let those resources go to the bees.

[@Draintheswamp2024]

I would think the intention of a second excluder is a modern double screen board yet still having full access to the workers.

[@bsslrs111090]

Loved the presentation, Keith. Thank you. Question: I have holiday coming up in May and won't be able to continue rotation for two weeks. Is there anything I can/must do to avoid swarming during that period. All 8-frame woodware in my hives. Thank you.

[@andrewolgado6018]

Thanks for this. I'm going to try to adapt this for Apis cerana. My guess is the top Queen excluder is in case a virgin queen hatches, she might try to go down and fight with mother thru lower queen excluder.

[@DavidHarrod]

I'd be very interested to hear anything about Apis Cerana. I know nothing of them. The top excluder is definitely not needed. Normally you can prevent any queen from hatching but even if one does she won't go down but even if she does she can't get through the lower excluder. I did this with many hives last year and never had a problem with this.

[@andrewolgado6018]

@@DavidHarrod I'm thinking of trying Apis cerana because I'm retiring back in the Philippines. European bees don't do so well there because of the heat. I've seen a other channel called Khmer beekeeping. They seem to have domesticated them fairly well and manage them like European bees. They do them from Japan to India too, but more traditional methods. A.cerana only maintain population about a tenth of European hives, so far less productive and very prone to swarming. So this method would be a good way of managing them if they are fairly calm. Their advantage is they cope with varroa well. The other alternative is stingless bees (tiny gnatt sized tropical bees), which are even smaller hives and very fiddly/messy so they can't go on tiny frames because of hive construction with propolis.

[@Jolinpat]

Hello! Great info, thank you for sharing!! I watched this video at least 20 times (seriously 😊). I live in Lancaster county and I am thinking of configuring my hives tomorrow using the Demaree method. Do you think it is too soon? Both my hives swarmed in early April last year and I am trying to stay ahead this year. Thank you!

[@DavidHarrod]

I'd wait until after this cold spell coming up this week. The danger of starting too early is the same as reversing too early and breaking up the brood nest. If you leave the queen in the lower box without open brood there's a chance that she'll freeze without nurse bees to keep the brood - and her - warm. I've started it in early April before.

[@Jolinpat]

@@DavidHarrod Hello Dave! Thanks again for the great advice to wait. The weather in Lancaster county has been cold and rainy. Curious if you started your demaree on your hives yet? Next week is looking much warmer.

[@KeithJardineBee]

You are welcome to join me at an apiary site. You are fairly close to my Embreeville location.😃

[@benjamindejonge3624]

I see future in this with xtra long top bar hives with my layens frames. This doesn’t have that heavy lifting

[@lillylibrary2496]

Do the frames that are between the upper and lower brood boxes need to be drawn out?

[@KeithJardineBee]

No. You could place foundation frames in that position, but obviously drawn comb is the best.

[@BrettBiggar]

Is the 2nd QE to keep the drones out of the supers? I've been trying to find out if that is the reason for the top QE.

[@DavidHarrod]

You only use one queen excluder with this method. There's no reason to keep drones out of supers.

[@BrettBiggar]

@@DavidHarrod Thanks David. I’m still a beginner. I could see all the examples but none explained what it was for. I did my split on Saturday without the top excluder.

[@PaulyPaulPaul]

It's to try and contain any virgin queens that may have emerged from QCs that you missed in that top box, rather than running around the supers.

[@garycasey991]

I wonder could you keep the queen cells and put them else where and roll what ever is left up on top to finish your split

[@KeithJardineBee]

It is a good idea to keep the queen cells to create a nucleus colony, add to a queenless hive or try to replace a poor queen. You will potentially decrease the number of bees in the parent colony and maybe restrict the amount of honey produced.

[@commodorezelda]

Any tips for reducing the size of the hive before winter? This is assuming you do not make and splits or nucs out of the demaree hive.

[@KeithJardineBee]

I like to keep the hives as big as possible before winter. Larger clusters seem to overwinter far better than smaller ones.

[@tsensenig250]

How do you manage harvesting honey? Do the bottom supers get capped first? Sounds like a lot of boxes to lift? Thanks

[@DavidHarrod]

It can be a lot of boxes to lift. Kieth deals with this by leaving one super between the two brood boxes and harvesting every week so he’s constantly pulling honey from the very very early spring.

[@KeithJardineBee]

The top honey super gets filled first. I harvest from this every week before the inspection. I do not wait for the honey to be capped, but store the supers in a honey room with a dehumidifier for 2 days. The dehumidifier also heats the room so extraction is easier. I keep the hives light.

[@framcesmoore]

thanks for doing this I have massive hives and I was thinking about putting a empty box on the bottom and forcing all the bees down and q excluder on the box and all brood is above the excluder I did not know that what I was thinking was a demeree method. any way thank you

[@DavidHarrod]

You're welcome Frances. If you keep the queen in the bottom box under the excluder, and keep an empty box on top of her the hive won't think of swarming. It took me a year of doing the Demaree to realize that this is also the key to the single brood chamber method. This rolling Demaree is a sure fire way to prevent swarming and/or to get yourself a two queen hive, but you do have to keep on top of it. If the buffer box gets filled with honey they can still decide to swarm. That does happen. This approach keeps putting empty comb or capped brood ready to hatch down with the queen. I'm not sure that is the key to its success though.

[@framcesmoore]

@@DavidHarrod dead mites good queens and good nutrition is the key to keeping them alive and this method is great for getting honey and keeping your bees from hiting the trees I have 27 hives I go into them every week it is a lot of work but that is ok in the end it is sucess I always used non restricted brood area and keep adding drawn comb and empty boxes I have massive hives right now but queen excluder here I come it would be nice to know where she is this way is a lot of work to start but once I get her in the bottom I do not have to pull every frame in every box any more a hive right now can take me a hr and my back hurts when I am finished any way thanks again have a blessed day

[@hockalo]

Is an 8 frame medium enough room for the queen below the excluder?

[@DavidHarrod]

Google says "A medium frame is 35 x 90 cells, or about 3100 cells per side." That would be 6200 per medium frame or 49,600 in 8 frames. A typical queen lays 1,500 eggs per day. It should take her 33 days to lay 49,600 eggs. Since a worker emerges in 21 days an 8 frame medium should theoretically be enough. If she lays 2K or 2500 per day it gets a little tighter. If the bees insist on keeping some honey and pollen in the brood box, as the do, it might get tight. If you try it let us know how it goes.

[@tsensenig8045]

Is the buffer box a honey super immediately above the queen excluder?

[@pavloskellerman3669]

can bee a honey super or a deep

[@KeithJardineBee]

I tend to use a deep above the queen excluder, but honey supers do the same thing. I place all the 'badly drawn' frames into the buffer area. Some super productive hives have 4 ten frame deeps with a super on the top. Normally 3 deeps and a medium super.

[@PriceBrotherOutdoor]

Hour and half video that could have been fifteen minutes

[@derekmartin4206]

what is the purpose of the box in between the bottom box with the queen and the top box with the brood in a "rolling demaree"?

[@DavidHarrod]

It gives the bees the impression that there is plenty of space for laying eggs and suppresses the swarm response in the bottom brood box. It also makes the bees in the top box think they're queenless and draw out queen cells. You can cut them out or use them for new queens. Some people let the top box make a queen and then you have a hive with two queens. Incidentally they'll draw comb quickly in the middle box, so it's a good way to get new comb.

[@tomahawkmissile241]

what is a queen excluder sounds like you keep them around

[@ME_MeAndMyBees]

A Queen Excluder (QE) is a flat Metal or Wood Surrounded Flat Panel with Bar (Rails) that are pre-measured in gap (size) Space. Worker Honey Bees can crawl thru up / down these, the Queen is Longer & Wider and can't fit thru the QE. In that it's a Barrier that "Excludes the Queen" from laying Eggs in parts of the Hive you don't want her to. Queen Excluders can be Horizontal, like above a Brood Box, or Vertical if say in a Top Bar Hive, or a Horizontal Hive. (Bees move left to right in these Hives, hence Vertical QE use.) Hope this helps. 😎 🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝 Happy Beekeeping 2023. 🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝

[@murat5103]

mark queen and clip wing (14 days gives from last inspectation) maybe old queen swarm but cant fly too long all swarm come back hive i heard BIBBA president Roger Petterson)

[@KeithJardineBee]

This was the method that I was told to do 50 years ago.

[@tomahawkmissile241]

waste of time could of took care of 30 hives just listening to this