Swedish 1930s Torpedo Bomber Strategy: Key Aircraft Series 7, Aircraft 7 & ScandiShip24 Montage

[@comentedonakeyboard]

The dificult part in preparing for war is to figure out what sort of war you are preparing for.

[@drakenred6908]

15:37 I hope you video chated drack to tell him, also THAT is why you need to go and see whats actualy at museums.

[@DrAlexClarke]

He already is of that view... it's just prior commitments on his part meant he had to go home. It's the joys of being an adult.

[@drakenred6908]

My first question would be toroedo bombing throudh ice, folowed by question about using seaplanes or floatplanes on iced over lakes. Need to look up sonething

[@drakenred6908]

Did not find it was looking for the article about Canadians wanting a ice breaking refit of the 415 fire bomber seaplane.

[@mahbriggs]

​@drakenred6908 A seaplane hull strong enough to be an icebreaker would be too heavy to fly! They may have wanted one, but wasn't going to happen.

[@stuartmehlberg808]

Hello Dr. Clarke, I very much enjoy learning so much more about naval history thanks to your tireless efforts (admittedly Dachinifel's recommendation is what brought me to your channel, some time ago). I'm an introvert, so your live videos intimidate me a little to be an active participant, but this is my 1st time commenting... As with the Japanese (in the Interwar years), Sweeden's burgeoning aviation industry prided themselves on creating domestic designs (however w/ the Japanese, theirs were often mistaken & assumed to be modifications of foreign designs). On this thread of thought, SAAB 18B seems to have some interesting design features.. Almost as if taking design inspirations from the Dornier Do 217 & the French Bloch MB175). Were there any references you found in the SAAB 18B's development, citing foreign designs inspirations? Or are these merely a (happy accident) design convergence for specific mission requirements?

[@DrAlexClarke]

I think it's more a case of convergent design based on similar starting positions - by the time of 18B they have done a lot of work making some very interesting domestic builds, licences builds and highly modified licensed builds - this means they have their own ideas and are developing them, but those ideas have started from a common foundation. This combined with some similarity in performance targets, led to convergance I feel more than inspiration at that point. That all made sense in my head, but reading it I'm not so sure I explained myself well, so this may become a Scuttlebutt 4 entry if I think I can improve upon my response.

[@stuartmehlberg808]

@@DrAlexClarke I think I understand your explanation well enough (& wouldn't trouble you w/ a Scuttlebutt). The of point meeting performance targets often enough historically can indeed produce common features in aircraft designs. But, overlayed with context of how the Swedes often modified Licensed Production really speaks to their competence and understanding of aeronautical design, their skill of industry, and as you put it so well; their political imperative to be strategically independent. I appreciate the thoughtful reply. Best wishes on the Big Move! 🏡

[@Vonstab]

@stuartmehlberg808 The specifications for what was then known as project P-8 were drawn up by Nils Söderberg in 1938. Essentially he was stuck with an impractical plan that called for the procurement of one single engine bomber and one twin engine medium bomber to equip the light and heavy squadrons from 1943-44 onward. His solution was to procure a fast light twin engine bomber that could fill both the light and medium roles such as the Swedish airforce defined them at that time. By May 1939 the 3 manufacturers had delivered their proposals and ASJA's design L-11 was selected as the P8A. ASJA and SAAB were merged and that killed SAABs G-1 design. Götaverken split off their aircraft manufacturing division into an independent company (AFV) which could not solve the economic side of things and their proposal was rejected. Did Söderberg have foreign inspiration when drawing up his specification? Yes, he mentions the Poetz 63, Bloch 170, Breuget 490, Breda 88 and Fokker G1 by name in an article published in 1984. But he did not do design work and the 3 proposals by the manufacturers all looked pretty different from each other. For example Götaverken/AFV had clearly been looking at pictures of the B-25 Mitchell when drafting their proposal for the prototype. Unfortunately none of my books mention if the team at ASJA had foreign inspiration but the basic outline of the aircraft was established already in October 1939 and did not change much over time although the team at post-merger SAAB had to adjust the design several times as wartime experience added new features.

[@johanmolin3213]

The main problem at the time was WHERE Sweden actually could buy aircraft. They managed to get the Junker bombers in 1936 and the Heinkels just before the war - and that seems in a large part being due to Herr Heinkel being an avid Sweden friend and not to keen on his present regime. Then EVERYTHING was blocked. Britain refused to sell any planes. There were outstanding orders in France which France unilaterally cancelled. It wasn't possible to buy more German planes when the war broke out. That left the US and Sweden actually managed to import some american fighters and a few bombers by the way of the Finish port of Petsamo - now Russian. Then Roosevelt also put a total embargo on sales to Sweden. The only way we could acquire more planes was from Italy, and that was really seen as a desperate solution. and the Capronis had a VERY bad reputation in Swedish service. It says something that Sweden discarded ALL Capronis right after the war. (Admittedly the Air Force tried to use the Capronis for dive bombing, horrifying the Italian mechanics being present - which it wasn't capable of doing ...) So THAT actually was the real birth of both the aircraft industry (SAAB), and it also meant that the fledgling torpedo industry was relocated inland to my town of youth, Motala, by the lake Vättern. And sure enough, the Heinkel torpedo bombers were extensively used there for testing new types of torpedoes. So it was sort of the birth for making advanced torpedoes as well. So the choices in those lists, and the lack of British torpedo bombers, actually were choices of necessity and not of preference.

[@bjornforsman1346]

The Caproni was never made in Sweden, 84 examples were bought from Italy. Used as bombers and recce aircrafts. The few of them designated as torpedo bombers were never used as that. All ended up as recon aircrafts. The reason Sweden bought aircrafts from Italy and to a lesser extent Germany is that they were the only countries that were willing to sell, the Italian aircrafts were not the first chiose, but the only option.

[@Vonstab]

A possible reason why there was no knowledge/interest in British torpedo bombers in Sweden was the dominance of a pretty hardcore 'Bomber mafia' who were able to establish a very lopsided organisation for the Swedish airforce with 4 bomber wings 1 fighter wing, 1 army recon wing and one maritime recon wing. Modern torpedo bombers for the maritime wing was not something the airforce went looking for until 1938. 1938 was also the year in which the talented Nils Söderberg took charge of the technical side of aircraft procurement in the airforce and he may very well have had a better understanding of what was needed than his predecessors who went shopping in the UK.

[@johanmolin3213]

Well, Sweden couldn't buy any airplanes from Britain any more when war was looming. We actually tried to acquire Hurricanes, but to no avail.

[@DrAlexClarke]

The Hurricane order was attempted in 1939, that was too late - Gloster Gladiators were sold to both them and Finland at that point, and it wasn't because Britain didn't want to sell them to Sweden. It was because having had similar issues with a Bomber centric procurement program, the British Air Ministry were also having a massive procurement of fighters to make up for their own earlier focus.

[@johanmolin3213]

@@DrAlexClarke Yes, Britain didn't put an embargo on sales to Sweden, but from our point of view we still couldn't buy any British planes when the war was looming. Before then, we didn't have the resources. Thanks anyway ever so much for your cery interesting and insightful channel!

[@DrAlexClarke]

Honestly this video was inspired by some very interesting chats at the Aeroseum, then some research in stockholm... It's a very interesting scenario the swedes find themselves in, they almost spend too much time debating topics, before they get to ordering it.

[@johanmolin3213]

@@DrAlexClarke In peacetime that seems to be an everlasting problem - not only in Sweden ... During the war, the Swedish government didn't put asny restriction at all on military spending and even issued war bonds for people to buy. However at the beginning the only industry which was more or less up to the task was the ship building industry. Sweden wasn't ably to procure a good tank for instance - until we bought Centurions in the 1950's. The aircraft industry took shape rather quickly. Already in 1946 we were able to buy Vampires, and already in 1948, the first J29 Tunnan het fighter took to the skies - admittedly with "imported" German engineers, some of whom even brought their drawings to Sweden ... And the venerable B18 / T18 eventually was replaced by the A32 Lansens with air-to-surface missiles. They were used very aggressively, flying at 10 mewters above surface level (like the Buccaneers), with lots of accidents as a result. BTW, the Gothenburg attraction would be pronounced something similar to Mariteeman (your first choice).