Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) - Measure How Tough a Pool Table Plays

[@DrDaveBilliards]

*Contents:* 0:00 - Intro 0:20 - Table Difficulty 2:03 - TDF System 3:16 - TDF Measurements 5:31 - TDF Calculation 7:31 - Wrap Up Many people have suggested over the years to add other factors to account for side pocket geometry, cloth conditions, cushion conditions, etc. As I mention in the beginning of the video, many conditions-related factors could be included, but then things would get much too complicated (to both measure and calculate). For more info, see the info and links here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/table/tdf/ *Supporting Resources:* - TDF resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/table/tdf/ - TDF document: billiarduniversity.org/documents/BU_table_difficulty_factor.pdf - TDF article: billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2013/nov13.pdf - TDF Excel spreadsheet calculator: billiarduniversity.org/documents/TDF_spreadsheet_calculator.xlsx - TDF mobile-friendly online calculator: rawgit.com/jpragma/pool-tdf/master/ - AZB forum TDF thread: forums.azbilliards.com/threads/table-difficulty-factor-tdf-for-measuring-table-toughness.324408/ - Top 10 POOL SHOTS Amateurs Play Wrong … and How to Play Them Right: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eGqkkqampZymr5o - Amazing BILLIARDS PHYSICS in Super Slow Motion: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hIjOiWyAeLx2gZI - How to Prevent a Shallow-Angle FORCE-FOLLOW Scratch: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o5Cmf5dsZb6gbtE - Top 10 WILD and CRAZY POOL SHOTS of All Time: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gH_Vc5pqoqiJd9U

[@KTHKUHNKK]

I love it. This is in-depth

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@KTHKUHNKK I'm glad you love it. In depth is what I do. :)

[@bobdepelsmaeker]

@@DrDaveBilliards that’s what she said 😂😂

[@nd_irish_fan744]

"If you want the table to play tighter, bet more." Buddy Hall

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@nd_irish_fan744 ... or play snooker. ... or narrow the mouth, increase the facing angle, and deepen the shelf. :)

[@mario_vicente]

The pool table difficulty I play in my club is: Size = 9 foot = 1.0 Pocket mouth = 104mm = 1.15 Pocket angle = 14mm = 1.0 Pocket shelf = 40mm = 1.0 Total TDF = 1.15 (between tough and very tough) I have to say this formula is very accurate. The pool table I play is tough and have little room to cheat the pockets. Balls that hit the rails before going into the corner pockets always rattle and come out unless the ball is spinning a lot. Accuracy is a must.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks for posting.

[@larryvietvet543]

Fantastic video with in depth information with factors I would never have thought of. My Home table is a Brunswick Camden II Mahogany 2006 model. Purchased used earlier this year. TDF factors, 8 foot .90, pockets 5 inch .88, angel 145 degrees 1.07, shelf 1 3/8 .93, TDF= .78 Very Easy. In my opinion it plays like the bar box tables around town. At 1.00 min of this video you show the 8 ball at 7 diamonds from the corner pocket, stating a small margin for error. With a carpenters quick square and a thin string on the pivot point I calculated the margin to be 1 degree left or right of pocket center to make the ball clean. The 9 ball large margin for error at 1 diamond away is 7 degrees to the left or right of center. 4 diamonds away is 2 degrees to the left of right of center. It's imperative to shoot good position to increase pocketing percentages. Thanks Dave for everything you do for the game of pool.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks for the info and comments. I’m glad you like my stuff.

[@aaronphelps2008]

Holy smokes. Such important, overlooked topics, all in one place. Thanks

[@imapolemicist2239]

Any time I played I use the rule of Fist... I stick my closed fist in the gap to determine the throat size. I run my fist forward and twist from side to side to determine the facing angle. I feel for the shelf depth from the corners by opening my fingers into the gap. Then I run the cushions with my fingers and see how they feel. Obviously run the white ball around a few times if I'm not dealing with a wannabe shark and then I play. Your scientific approach is definitely correct and I love the detail that's gone into it especially the alcohol chart 😂. Brilliant work.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I’m glad you like my Alcohol Analysis.

[@CocoboloCowboy]

Intresting break down why some Table are more difficulty to pocket balls on. Thanks for efforts DD.😃

[@nuggers23]

I did something else at my pool hall. I did my trainings on all of them and noted the following for each: - does it play the system when I aim three rail kick to a hanger and how much I need to adjust +/- - can I play long rail shots with side pocket in between and which side pocket corner stands out and makes such shots impossible - speed Now that I got my break cue I will note down how they break in 8/9 ball Notes I already got prove to be helpful in our amateur tournaments ;) Cheers!

[@vukasinpilipovic9625]

You just read my mind! I am just about to buy a new pool table! Thank you DrDave!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I'm glad the timing was good for you.

[@jerrycasey1053]

I'm redoing my friend's 8ft table, that had already been redone by former owner some years ago. He had 5 1/3" pockets on the corners, almost 6" on the sides. Due to the big size in the corners the shelf was correspondingly a bit deeper; a ball at the edge of the shelf and against the facing almost could not be made, and if so then the cue ball would get trapped in the pocket. I made shims for the rails and it's coming in at almost exactly 4 1/2", 5" on the sides, same as Diamond tables I checked. I hope to get it finished tomorrow and will post back with how it plays. Pro-Am rubber, 860 cloth, angles as per Classic Billiards chart, I am hopeful.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

It would be interesting for you to post the TDF numbers both before and after the changes and let us know how well the numbers characterize the change in play.

[@williampeer6985]

Purchased Olhausen 7' table December 2023. Opening=4 3/4", throat =4 3/16", shelf depth= 1 3/4". Result 11.36. Extra tough. Plays like it. I hadn't played for decades. Was never very good. I rattle balls on this table to the point of extreme frustration. Beautiful table, I hate the pockets.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You must have entered something incorrectly. Using the "mobile friendly tool" here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/table/tdf/ I get: Table Size Factor: 0.85 Pocket Size Factor: 0.95 Pocket Angle Factor: 1.00 Pocket Shelf Factor: 1.00 Table Difficulty Factor: 0.81 This table is very easy

[@williampeer6985]

@DrDaveBilliards Thank you so much for your reply. I'm sorry, I used a different TDF system and it resulted in "extra tough". Using your system I must be very bad if my table is "very easy" because I rattle so many shots. Thank you for what you do on KZbin. Your videos have helped me a bunch. P.S., I live 30 miles west of Colorado Springs.

[@ShootingAndReloading]

Very interesting! I'd love to see a version for English tables with rounded pockets. Shots down the rail are much harder than on US style tables.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The TDF system currently works only for flat-facing-pocket pool tables. One of these days, I'll try to extend it to rounded-pocket tables.

[@D.H.1987]

@@DrDaveBilliards the title Dr. is def well deserved sir

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@D.H.1987 Thanks. FYI, I actually have a doctorate. For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/dr-dave

[@jakesanc]

This is awesome thank you. At home I have an 8 foot world of leisure that I had a local guy tighten the pockets and install simonis cloth. It plays way tougher now and I am very curios to see how it comes out with this test. Thanks again for all of your great videos!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You’re welcome. I’m glad you like my stuff.

[@argeatlarge]

Would be really cool to compile all the data into a map so one could look in their area and be able to use this to see how the different tables in their area stack up. I think it would be a really cool community project! Would also love to see something like this that would cover how hard or soft the cushions are as well.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

It would be awesome if the TDF were known for (and maybe even labeled on) every table everywhere.

[@earlschandelmeier751]

@@DrDaveBilliards maybe you could make a video calling on your viewers to take action on this. If everyone, or even a good percentage participate, it would happen pretty quickly. All we really need to do is talk to the owners about it. Get permission. Then take the measurements and post them on the tables we play regularly. If we all do this pretty soon it will catch on. This is the exact same concept as slope rating on golf courses. A staple for any golfer who plays different courses regularly. People will see the rating, learn to understand what it means, and want it on their tables as well. Word of mouth will get this thing raging like a forest fire because I don't know a single pool player who travels who doesn't constantly wonder about and compare difficulty levels on different tables. It's frankly a pia going into a new place not knowing what you're facing! I think I might add one measurement more to the equation. It might be too difficult to quickly ascertain rail quality but I don't think it would be difficult at all to measure felt speed. Speed really matters as we all know.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@earlschandelmeier751 Good ideas. One problem with labelling tables is if the cushions are re-done, the measurements can change. FYI, lots of people have posted data for a wide range of tables here: forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=324408 Concerning including other factors, see the answer to the 2nd question section here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/table/tdf/

[@ericpoolguysimpson2954]

I will have to measure my table and determine my toughness! Thanks Dr. DAVE

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Please post your table info, measurements, and results when you get a chance to set an example for others to do the same.

[@ericpoolguysimpson2954]

@@DrDaveBilliards yes i will!

[@subhadeep7779]

That's good that you are still active , after so many years

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks. I plan to still be around and posting for many more years to come.

[@fixitrod4969]

Another excellent scientific pool video!

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks.

[@MSPcraps]

Thanks Dr Dave! My home table is an 8 ft. Kasson (no, not Rasson). Table size 0.90, pocket size 0.91, pocket angle 1.41, pocket shelf 0.99 = 0.92 (easy) TDF. I expected a higher TDF because balls rattle out of those corners for everyone who plays this table.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks for posting. The smaller table size and large pocket opening are big factors. FYI, the pocket angle factor (1.41) you listed cannot be correct.

[@SonOfTheSoil834]

Dr Dave you deserve millions of subscribers 🤞🏽

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks. Maybe some day.

[@simonmatthews566]

Will be interesting to watch the upcoming Mosconi Cup with them using 4' pockets. Think it makes sense given the relatively short nature of the match format.

[@metacamman121]

4' pockets should be easy lol wink wink

[@moskitosTR]

Major factor. How many beers you had 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Check out the graph and article here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/advice/alcohol/ Enjoy!

[@TheRPhelps24]

@@DrDaveBilliards the perfect scientific reply! Hahaha

[@fixitrod4969]

Seriously Dr Dave! Wow lol. Next up, are you better at playing pool in white socks or black socks lol. Don't you dare post a link lol.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@fixitrod4969 ... no link required. Sock color is obviously immaterial. :)

[@IndianHeathen1982]

​@@DrDaveBilliardsif you won't provide a link, I will. :) pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20511389/ Not about the socks per se but the placebo benefits of superstitious routines.

[@iLanageddon]

I'm definitely measuring my table later and calculating my toughness factor. It's a WPA Black Crown. 🎱

[@murthyravi6035]

Thank you sir, the video made by day ❤

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I'm glad to hear it.

[@groovygrover190]

Lovin' the segment Doc I like my pockets square and tight so it will spit out poor shots but not once past the mouth so .... 9', 4 1/4, 135 or 0 diff, 1 1/2 1.00, .97, 1.1, .99 Total 1.06 Edit : Just wanted to add stats for one of the hardest tables I ever played on 9', 3 5/8, 3/8, and 2 1/2 ( ball would hide down the rail, ridiculously deep) 1.00, 1.31, .99, 1.15 Total 1.49 Painful

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks for posting. I hope others follow your lead.

[@groovygrover190]

@@DrDaveBilliards No problem. Just wanted to mention one thing this system doesn't take into account, that I saw more than anything else at this super deep corner pocket tournament was high quality players lining up and shooting into the side pockets far more than usual. This table played much like a snooker table in that it was very daring, some called you crazy, to shoot "down the rail" or anywhere close to it. It changed the whole game by making "pocket speed" a critical factor. Myself, being young at the time, blasted almost everything, so I hated it. I said to the owner "What have you done here? You can't shoot with any speed at all." "Oh?!" he returns "You don't like the table?". I reply "it's not what you've done to the table, but what you are doing to the men? A year of this and you'll have a room full of gardeners!"

[@bobdepelsmaeker]

My home table: Table size factor: 1.00 Pocket size factor: 1.20 Pocket angle factor: 0.98 Pocket shelf factor: 0.98 Table difficulty factor: 1.15 = Very tough Just how i like it 😄

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks for posting.

[@sk7262]

master "Jedi" difficulty makes everything easy! ours is a 1.2

[@jasonnieuwenhuis335]

Mine’s 0.93 classifying it as easy. I believe it. It’s a beautiful 9 foot, fun to play on. Deep shelf so if you don’t shoot too hard a guy can have good success.

[@hannesluettringhaus1615]

Hey Dr. Dave, I believe you should add two more factosr to your equation: cloth slickness and dampness (humidity). Those conditions are influencing the angles which make a pocket accepting shots.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

See the answer to the 2nd question here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/table/tdf/

[@nd_irish_fan744]

"If you want to make the table play tighter, bet more." Buddy Hall

[@DrDaveBilliards]

... or play snooker. ... or narrow the mouth, increase the facing angle, and deepen the shelf. :)

[@1Andypro]

Results for my table: Olhausen Belmont 8' (home) 88"x44" = 0.90 TSF 4.75" = 0.95 PSF 144° = 1.10 PAF 1.5625" = 1.00 PLF 0.90 (TSF) * 0.95 (PSF) * 1.10 (PAF) * 1.00 (PLF) = 0.94 "easy (but close to average)"

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks for posting.

[@Daraghbreen]

My table is an english 8 ball table. As these these tables go the pockets are quite big especially down the rails at slow speed. But when shooting a ball in down the rail at pace, it becomes physically impossible to pocket it. Why could this be?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

... probably the facing angle.

[@raygrinders3918]

Sounds like a rounded-pockets snooker table.

[@Daraghbreen]

@@raygrinders3918 yes it is. But even snooker tables allow you to power them down the rail if you are precise

[@OffGridMadMan]

​@@DaraghbreenI have a 7x4 Supreme Winner and nothing will go in down the rails at any pace. Plus they have to go in clean regardless. I definitely believe it plays harder than a full size snooker table but I suppose it can only make you better 🤷‍♂️😫

[@CueballcontrolSometimes]

Dufferin 8' Pro =.95 TSF, .4.9 opening =91 PSF, .9" size decrease =1.07 PAF, >1 3/4" shelf=1.03 PLF FOR A TOTAL OF .953

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks for posting.

[@JohnJohnson-zq9rg]

If the "facing angle" is to large it ruins the game, because you cannot power balls in then anymore, especially with smaller pockets. So you need to play every shot slow. Which takes away a huge amount of shots you normally can play. Pocketing is easy with large pockets and "large facing" angle if you just let your balls roll in and shoot softly. So it favors soft playing people. With large "facing angle" pockets, balls do not drop in the pocket if they are shot hard enough to bounce between the sides of the pockets. These kind of tables limit your game play options. If I look at pro player home tables they often have small pockets and facing angles close to 135 degrees. So you can play hard and still pocket a ball if the ball enters the pocket opening space. You just have to aim more precise, In the past pockets were smaller also in Europe pockets are mostly smaller the here in the USA. When the coin tables came, they made the pockets bigger just for commercial reasons. PS: I miss the middle pocket sizes and angles etc in your video.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Well stated. I agree.

[@Dickiediscos]

Great in-depth video as usual. What about other factors on a table though, such as cloth speed and the condition of the rails? Can they be calculated in some way? (Not that it would actually make a difference to my own game, but more because it'd just be interesting to know). I only ask because of some clubs around here whose tables are utter crap because of the cloth and the rails making them almost unplayable.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I mention this in the beginning of the video. See also the comment in the video description and pinned comment.

[@grobbs666]

I like the system! I remember reading a lot of debate about it on AZ Billiards, but its definitely the best possible system to quickly and easily compare tables. And, at least my personal experience, my results seem accurate. My old table was a 0.88, new one 1.09, which implies 24% more difficult. Which appears to be about right. Only difference is my new table is a much higher quality table (Gold Crown), so balls roll and rebound off cushions much more accurately and predictably, which makes it play a bit easier. But again a system to take every last factor into consideration would be so complex that it'd be useless in practice

[@groovygrover190]

Love the comment, I love Gold Crown II's and you are correct. Squirt and skid are factors on this table, but impossible to measure

[@CocoboloCowboy]

Half the Nuckelheads on AZB Forum do not or could not run 3 balls in a row. Most real Pool Players are not spending to much of their life on that forum. They are playing Pool, or working on game building, and trying to improve with they do not do well be it breaking, kicking, banking, etc. None of those skills are built by tapping finders on keyboard, or electric tablet.🤪

[@walterreedjr6762]

So are you gonna build or buy a super tough table? This video kinda reminds me about the Boston Celtics rims, they are smaller (in circumference) than the average nba rim but still within regulations

[@eric30]

You should make a video about cues. Types, price, quality, etc.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks for the suggestion, but this really isn't my "thing." Although, I do have some good general info and advice (and a related video) here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/selecting/ Enjoy!

[@Snowbag1998]

Very interesting topic. I think cloth type (in term of speed) would be an important evaluation factor as well !

[@DrDaveBilliards]

As I mention in the beginning of the video, many other conditions-related factors could be included, but then things get much too complicated (to both measure and calculate).

[@Snowbag1998]

@@DrDaveBilliards Fully agree. The simpler the better.

[@dougoverhoff7568]

New cloth makes it easier to pocket the balls, as it creates less friction(or resistance to roll), and consequently the ob will be able to "slide" into the pockets rather than having a more natural roll, thus making the ball less likely to rattle. Dirty cloth, (and pool balls), especially with lots of embedded chalk dust, creates the opposite effect, of course, and makes pocketing balls more difficult. So, always keep your table and equipment clean, if you wish to enjoy a better game.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@dougoverhoff7568 Agreed. For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/table/cloth-effects/

[@cakins1986]

Dave, I know your table once belonged to Robert Byrne and you are in no hurry to replace it. However, if you were in the market for a new table, what would you buy (including pocket size)?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Honestly, I haven't even thought about it. I have thought about getting my cushions replaced and having the facing angles made smaller. The pocket opening will be smaller (so people won't think my pockets look so huge), but I think the table will actually play easier with the straighter facings (and less pocket rattle).

[@philvigil6128]

The bottom line practice practice practice...your muscle memory the amazing computer (your brain) automatically compensate after a few shots on any table...

[@djamo1969]

I play on a red label deep-shelved 9’ Diamond most days, and when you do that, everything else seems easier. That said, I don’t play much better on Gold Crowns. LOL.

[@YPOC]

I'm really interested in the TDF for Rasson tables, like the ones used for Mosconi Cup and other Matchroom events. Didn't find anything in the forums

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You or anybody with convenient access to any table can now easily take the measurements and post the results. I hope somebody does.

[@YPOC]

@@DrDaveBilliards I'll certainly do if I ever get invited to the Mosconi Cup! :D

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@YPOC Hopefully, somebody reading this who plans to be there and can take measurements and post the results. It doesn't take long.

[@lyokas4915]

Hello DrDave. Very interesting way to compare table difficulties. However i feel like TSF chart is quite arbitraty when it is strongly related to PSF. Let me explain : take for instance a 9ft table with PSF=1 (mouth size = 11.25 cm). If we assume that shot distance on an 8ft table is in average 8/9 shot distance on a 9ft table, with standard 57.2 mm balls and using basic geometry, we can compute a pocket size that would be seen from the object ball with the same opening angle when distance is reduced by an 8/9 factor, we get 10.6 cm. An 8ft table with this pocket size should have the same pocket size difficulty than the 9ft table with PSF=1, in other words we should have in both cases TSF*PSF=1 which is not true with the current charts. That's the reason why i dont think TSF and PSF can be separated, in my opinion there should be only one factor computed from table size and pocket mouth size. What is your opinion ?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Good point. However, for your example, the difference in the TSFxPSF calculation is 1.00 vs. 0.99. That is a very small difference. It would be interesting to check the differences over a wider range of table and pocket size comparisons to make sure all comparable TSFxPSF calculations are as close. Regardless, I think it is helpful for people to see the effects of table and pocket size differences separately, even though they are related. FYI, the logic and reasoning that went into the TDF system and the individual factors can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/table/tdf/

[@lyokas4915]

@@DrDaveBilliards Thank you. Indeed 8ft does not show a big discrepancy, but take 184 cm long table, equivalent pocket size is 9.73 cm, we get TSF*PSF=1.0625 vs 1. In fact for any pocket size you should conserve TSF*PSF accross equivalent pockets. Take for instance a 13 cm pocket on 9 ft table, equivalent 8ft pocket is 12.1 cm, so TSF*PSF=0.82 vs 0.88. I do understand the interest of having a separate measure for table size difficulty, all i am saying is that if we look at any table as a resized standard table, things become more complex.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@lyokas4915 Again, excellent points. Another thing to consider is that as the pockets get larger, size almost becomes a non issue. And as the pocket size shrinks a lot, the pockets become almost exponentially more difficult. This is not the case with table-size effects, where shot difficulty varies linearly with distance.

[@johntanner611]

Great video! Man you love some aycronms lol

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thanks. I do like my pool acronyms: TDF, VEPS, VEPP, VEEB, VENT, HAPS, TIPOPAB, BU, SAWS, TDF, MOFUDAT, CIT, SIT, BHE, FHE, etc.

[@330devans]

Then there’s that factor of the pocket size making you a better player. Which seems to be the overall thinking that tight pockets make you a better player. More to pool than just being a shot maker.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Tight pockets definitely cause more misses and limit some creative options at times, but they do force you to learn to focus more.

[@Krushard]

I understand that accounting for rails brings complexity but can't we at least include the rail speed and how accurate the diamond system is? Idk, some standard kicks/banks.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

There is a lot you could do, but almost nobody would want to use the system if it were too complicated, or if it were too difficult or took too long to take accurate measurements.

[@marcmalmberg7029]

This is really interesting, but it seems to me that the elasticity of the cushions would play a big role in determining how the pockets play. I would think dead rails are more generous, lively rails more likely to spit out the ball. Not really an easy measurement to take though, I would guess.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Agreed, but as I mention in the beginning of the video, even though many other conditions-related factors could be included, it would make things too complicated (to both measure and calculate).

[@djflax8806]

This! I have an Olhausen and my corner pockets are definitely smaller and harder to make balls. When I go to a pool hall I’m like holy shit look how big these corner pockets are.

[@rashad5969]

As always.... Another great video Dr....... This question is completely off topic. The Ultimate Team Gear apparel...... Do the shirts run true to size compared to other brands of clothing you wear? I'm Looking to order shirts from them for my team.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The jerseys fit me as I expected.

[@FloridaRaider]

I don't like the deep shelves. You need to get back down table, you hit it perfect down the rail with a firm stroke and it hangs. I feel like a perfect shot, the ball should fall. And a 2 ball pocket width seems fair and easy for universal measurement.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The pocket width alone isn't enough. If the facing angles are large, the pocket can have a huge mouth and still spit out balls, especially if the shelf is deep.

[@DeeboComing]

It's crazy that some of these more recent tournaments are played on tables with 4 inch pockets.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Agreed. Although, with small facing angles and slick cloth, they play bigger than they look.

[@mikewest712]

when a table is assembled are any of these pocket/shelf measurements adjustable? I have an idea of what a perfect 9 footer should play like and shelf depth seems like it could make a table great or too hard. fine line on shelf depth

[@DrDaveBilliards]

How the cushion facings are cut and shimmed does affect everything, but the pocket opening rim position and shape cannot be changed easily since it is cut into the slate.

[@davidscobie7177]

Dr. Dave. I once had a break and had 8 balls drop. I got the ERO but my handicap went up because it was VS a 9 and I ran 2 tables. What is your best break? I have done 7 a few times but only 8 one time. In 9 ball I have done 4 a few times.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

That’s strong. My best in 8-ball that I can remember is 6. I’ve gotten 5 in 9-ball. Unfortunately, I don’t have either on video.

[@davidscobie7177]

I have done 5 a few times, but the white ball always goes in when I do that. I also find how you place the balls when you rack is helpful. You should do a video about racking for yourself. I used a BK2 to break, and I find it always produces a lot of speed. I also do some back spin when I break and it shifts and runs though the rack again.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@davidscobie7177 FYI, I have lots of videos dealing with 9-ball racking and breaking strategy here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/break/pattern/ billiards.colostate.edu/faq/break/9-ball/ Enjoy!

[@nanonanooo5]

outstanding thankyou

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You're welcome. I'm glad you liked it.

[@dougoverhoff7568]

Hopefully, by compiling and publishing all of these different table dimensions, it will help to eventually lead the industry to someday creating more standardized sizes and dimensions in the table construction by all manufacturers. No other major sport's competitors must endure the vast differences and variations of equipment specifications such as is found amongst the billiards industry's. Just imagine a professional football team playing on a field of 96 yards, or a basketball game with the rims at 9.5 ft! Preposterous? Then why is the professional pool player subjected to such variances in the equipment that he/she must compete on? And yet, the pool world still often wonders why it hasn't always been taken seriously by many, or recognized as a legitimate product for corporate endorsement, and not given its due respect as a proper, professional sport? Maybe some standardization of the equipment might be part of the answers to some of those questions.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The WPA does have equipment specifications, but most things have a range of acceptable values: wpapool.com/equipment-specifications/

[@ayaanrana5386]

Which one would you think is better overall: simonis 860 or tournament felt

[@DrDaveBilliards]

If by "tournament felt," you mean 730, 730 is faster and slicker than 860. Neither is "better" but they do play differently per the info here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/table/cloth-effects/ A good player needs to be able to adjust to all conditions.

[@davidscobie7177]

I once had two balls hover a pocket trying to play a combo. It was impossible to replicate but I did it in a game. We had to get 3 refs to see if it was a scratch because I was hovering and the ball did it hit a rail. I was over the pocket and hit the other ball now the rail so it was my best worst scratch ever.

[@Shastavalleyoutdoorsman]

I never realised how different tables can be.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Huge! See the examples here: forums.azbilliards.com/threads/table-difficulty-factor-tdf-for-measuring-table-toughness.324408/

[@sk7262]

My table is a 1.2. alot of people comment its a tricky one to play on Select Table Size Table 8 ft+ (Pro 8) Enter Measurements Type Input Units Mouth Size: 10.00 Cm Throat Size: 9.00 Cm Facing Angle: Degrees Shelf Depth: 5.50 Cm Results Type Factor Table Size: 0.95 Pocket Size: 1.20 Pocket Angle: 0.98 Pocket Shelf: 1.07 TDF (Rating) 1.20 (Very Tough)

[@DrDaveBilliards]

That is a tough table. Thank you for posting your info.

[@sk7262]

@@DrDaveBilliards owned it for 15 years and played more on it in the last few months than the rest combined. love you r channel! Off topic question and "might" make a interesting topic: Aramith crown/standard vs premier vs premium vs pro. there is mixed differences out there. also pro/cons of using smaller/medium/larger balls on a certain size table - we use 2" on our 8ft

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@sk7262 In my experience, there is not a significant or important difference in ball performance. And even if there is, it is something easily adjusted to in a short amount of time (just like with cloth differences).

[@sk7262]

reading more comments our pocket mouth is curved rather than a straight out angle.

[@sk7262]

@@DrDaveBilliards also pro/cons of using smaller/medium/larger balls on a certain size table - we use 2" on our 8ft - also the casino cueball being smaller? so many variations

[@dljeung]

I saw that you measured a Valley table (or at least it was measured by someone who posted as DrDave). Where was this table? Emporium?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

“dr_dave” on AZB is me. That Valley was at MatchUps many years ago. Although, most Valleys have similar pocket geometry. However, the cushion and cloth choices and conditions can make a difference in how the table plays.

[@calebsmith3028]

Hi DrDave, I’ve been looking at buying a nice table recently and have struggled in finding exactly what I want. What table do you play on?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

My table is a 9' Olhausen.

[@D.H.1987]

How have you designed those independant factors to calculate the TDF factor?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Check out the links in the video description and pinned comment.

[@joncue0304]

Would be great to quantify cloth speed into that calculation. Huge factor IMHO.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Players always need to be able to adjust for cloth/cushion/ball conditions. For the reason why this sort of stuff is not included in the TDF, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/table/tdf/

[@nedj10]

A truly interesting video, however, It does seem a tad puzzling, that in the first few minutes of the video the effects of cushion reflectivity and felt friction appear to be discounted. Given that these two factors control the response of the object ball and cue ball from a cue strike, it would seem an oversight to do so. Indeed without these factors how can any player expect to know what results their attempts to impart spin or hit a bank will have? If a cushion is soft on one table and firm on another, the force imparted on the ball when the cushion reflects will be notably different. A diagnostic method to determine these factors would be immensely helpful in order to gauge how one table would play vs another table the player might do all of their practicing on. Additionally, this does not take into consideration the effects of moving between different sizes of tables which like the factors above determine the amount of physical force the player must impart on the cue ball to complete the desired shot and leave. A formulaic method for all of these factors would be immensely helpful.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Cloth and cushion conditions are definitely important factors that require player adjustment. For more info on why they weren’t added to the TDF system, see the info and links here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/table/tdf/

[@nedj10]

@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks for responding DrDave, I read the TDF docs prior to making my comment. Has there been any documenation or processes developed to guage the cloth and cusion conditions? A scale perhaps?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@nedj10 This is probably the best way to characterize cloth speed: billiards.colostate.edu/instructional-articles/pb-review/stimpmeter/ The best way to characterize cushions is with standard kick/bank systems tests: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/testing/

[@robertmeadows1657]

I was wondering if you considered incorporating the undercut angle in your calculations. Also, not to disrespect your table but man, that corner’s cattywampus.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I've considered many things but decided to include only the most important and easily measurable things without too much complexity. Large facing angles and a deep shelf can definitely make corners cattywampus.

[@kisuke80]

My head is spinning in numbers. I guess I have to rewatch it many times to understand all of it. By the way how much TDF would the normal Russian billiards table would have if I use this system? I didn’t measure it yet but I know the pocket is 1.25 ball size on both corner and side pockets and size of the table is 12 feet length and 6 feet wide. Can you help me approximate the TDF number?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You don't need to "understand" it. The free tools linked in the video description and pinned comment do the calculations for you. The TDF system really applies only to typical pool tables. Russian billiards table are "off the scales." If you want to learn more, check out the info and links here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/table/tdf/

[@sundakhistan4000]

Hi Dr Dave, is this TDF with the assumption that we are using US 2 1/4 sized balls?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

2 1/4" balls is not just a US standard. It is the international WPA standard. Yes, the TDF system applies only to standard pool tables.

[@sundakhistan4000]

@@DrDaveBilliards thanks Dr Dave! Appreciate your quick and informative replies! Hope I can spread your love and knowledge of pool to where I live so more people start playing ☺️

[@markgalura2891]

here after Earl's mosconi 2021 interview

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Earl likes tables with high TDFs. I hope he can create some USA magic.

[@OffGridMadMan]

My 7x4 English table comes out around 1.6! No wonder I'm trash.... 😜

[@williamshultz4620]

Does the arc of the shelf vary? I get the depth from the center of the mouth, but the shelf drop-off is arched. What are the radius of that or does it vary?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The rounded lip is standard. The shelf depth is measured to the top part of the lip closest to the mouth of the pocket.

[@williamshultz4620]

@@DrDaveBilliards standard to what size though? I can't find any info on this anywhere 🤷

[@DrDaveBilliards]

All equipment specs are here: wpapool.com/equipment-specifications/ but manufacturers don't always follow them. I don't think the radius of the pocket opening cut into the slate is specified, but you can check.

[@jonbrown3981]

Dear Dave (or any body), would it be possible to extend the shelf on a pool table to make it play tougher? The pockets are already tight but would like my table play tougher..

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I don't know of any easy ways to extend the slate, but it might be possible to add and insert or build up material. But you don't need to. You can make the table play as tough as you want by reducing the mouth size and increasing the facing angles.

[@jonbrown3981]

@@DrDaveBilliards hmmmm interesting.. Thanks.. The pockets are already 3 7/8 but I want to not even be able to make a ball 😂😂😂

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@jonbrown3981 ... then play Russian Pyramid billiards! :)

[@JordanFlaten]

Hey Doc, I’m currently building my own mini table because I’m tired of seeing these cheap and easy mini’s everywhere. I am curious if it’s possible to calculate the TDF for it. If I gave you the specs would this be possible??

[@DrDaveBilliards]

How “mini” are you talking?

[@JordanFlaten]

I’m using 1.5” balls with a playing area is 25x50”. I would assume the only way to do it is by comparing proportions

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@JordanFlaten You could do the pocket factors using proportions, but the table size factor is difficult to estimate. The info here might be helpful: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/table/tdf/

[@JordanFlaten]

@@DrDaveBilliards I had a feeling it would be theoretically possible but not practically useful info. That you for replying btw!

[@JordanFlaten]

One quick question, currently my drawings have a 135* (parallel) pocket angle. In your experience, which increases difficulty more, wider pocket angles or narrower pocket opening?

[@h.o.w.ahowsmoovprod.3154]

What about the felt Dr Dave is super fast felt a factor?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Cloth, cushion, and ball conditions are always factors that players must adjust to.

[@letmesignup12311]

4 inch pockets play very tough. Like playing a whole different game

[@DrDaveBilliards]

You should see a Russian Billiards table. That’s truly brutal.

[@letmesignup12311]

Local pool room has red label and recently took it down to 4 from 4.5. Stark difference makes it tough to gamble on

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@letmesignup12311 That’s brutal!

[@fckgrtlr8441]

1:57 I think such holes should be forbidden in tournaments. The ball is clearly fully inside. It's unfair and against the physics you would expect, if the ball comes out just because of the speed.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

That's part of the game. If the pockets play tight, leave a better angle on the shot so you don't need so much speed to get shape on the next ball.

[@jaypisme2343]

These 4 and a half inch pockets are killing me and it's outside in the shop so it stays damp.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Damp and dirty cloth definitely makes pockets play tighter. Although, if the facing angles aren't too large, and if the shelf isn't too deep, 4 1/2" pockets can be "generous," especially with new and dry cloth.

[@3k2p6]

Is this valid for pool 51 pool tables?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Swimming pool or crypto pool? Regardless, no.

[@bob_daniels_art]

I don't know if the calc is accurate. I put in my pockets were 4" and it said it was "average" play. Maybe average for a 900 Fargo? LOL

[@DrDaveBilliards]

The table size, facing angles, and shelf depth are also important.

[@bob_daniels_art]

Yeah I was just messing. I’m sure mine an easy table for most. Lol

[@anagbilyard9105]

what is the size of the center hole for a 9 feet table

[@DrDaveBilliards]

... usually 1/2" wider than the corner pocket. For more info, see: wpapool.com/equipment-specifications/#Pocket-Openings-and-Measurements

[@anagbilyard9105]

Tks

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@anagbilyard9105 yw

[@jgbusquets]

Is this vàlid for snooker tables?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

No ... only pool tables with flat-facing pockets. One of these days, I will try to extend it to rounded-pocket tables.

[@daleback9046]

I do not think a number means much. If the table only has 1.5 or 1.75 inch thick bumpers it will never play like a table with 2 inch professional rails of if the rail contact height is wrong the table will never play correct. If a player wants to refine their game more they should play on a table with smaller pockets like a diamond table which has the 2 inch rails.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

It sure would be nice if all tables were made perfectly to spec (in the center of the range), but manufacturers like to "distinguish" themselves, and top players have demanded "smaller" pockets over the years. For example, Diamond set up their cushion so they play differently than most brands. Because of this, the diamond systems that work well on most table, come up well short on most Diamonds. See: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/Diamond

[@simon3dprints937]

How about a English pool table? They have curved mouth, even they have the same angel the curved mouth are much more difficult to pocket

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Sorry, but the TDF system works only for flat-facing pool tables. Some day in the future, I’ll try to extend it to curved pocket openings.

[@Gotwired]

Table size 9 ft mouth 11 cm throat 9 cm shelf 3 cm Oddly enough, plugging into both the online calculator and the excel sheet gives different results; 1.04 and 1.07 respectively. Wth?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Thank you for pointing this out. There appears to be an error in the pocket shelf factor calculation in the spreadsheet. I've reported it to the author of the spreadsheet so he can fix it as soon as possible. Thanks again.

[@Gotwired]

@@DrDaveBilliards No prob. So i guess 1.04 is accurate?

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@Gotwired Thar’s right. FYI, the spreadsheet is fixed now. Here’s the new link: billiarduniversity.org/documents/TDF_spreadsheet_calculator.xlsx

[@Gotwired]

@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks!

[@yashwardhanpathare3970]

And then come those blunt, round mouthed tables which you'll find at most malls...🙂

[@bobdepelsmaeker]

First 😄

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Actually, I beat you to it with my pinned comment. :)

[@stephan6733]

In my area a bar box is the average table

[@DrDaveBilliards]

... then you probably wouldn't like a typical "average" 9' table. :)

[@stephan6733]

@@DrDaveBilliards LOL I don't like diamond tables.

[@DrDaveBilliards]

@@stephan6733 I don’t like how bouncy the cushions are and how short kicks and banks go: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/Diamond … not to mention the “tight” pockets.

[@detonationpyrotechnics4156]

Last time I measured a throat she gagged

[@wesleysnipes1873]

I had an ex girlfriend one time that was always TDF.

[@fckgrtlr8441]

The problem is that mostly all of the 4 side pockets are different😅

[@DrDaveBilliards]

I've never seen a table with 4 side pockets before. :)

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Ideally, you should measure all 4 corner pockets and take an average for the table.

[@fckgrtlr8441]

As a non native speaker it took me a while to find the mistake 🤣🤣

[@castileofleon]

My table difficulty factor is a 1.37 😮😮😮😮😢

[@DrDaveBilliards]

Ouch! That's a tough one.

[@ynkybomber]

Plays golf laughs at normal tables.