Tactics in a BRUTAL Boss Fight in Pathfinder 2e (Deleted from "Illusion of Choice? Tactics Pt. 2")

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I think it'll be fun to use the "Premiere" function to schedule a video in advance and have a virtual viewing party with chat. According to my channel analytics, most of the channel's viewers are on KZbin during business hours in the U.S. But perhaps I should shoot for after-work hours? (I'm also heavily inclined for that time since I have students who'd watch but aren't free during school hours.) Anyone interested in this, and when would you prefer? (Also would like to hear from people in other time zones.) BTW, the next video will probably highlight LEVEL 20 in Pathfinder 2e! :o

[@utopia2112]

I'm not saying I run 5e perfectly - and for sure I've seen my players make mistakes like failing to use Sneak Attack or what have you. but I was surprised and a little dismayed at how many mistakes you pointed out that you made during the combat. It left me with a sinking feeling that PF 2.0 is hard to learn/run properly. Any comments, Mr. Rules Lawyer? Was it just an off day for you? Maybe I'm just wrong and an equal number of mistakes are made by all the people at my table!

[@patron7906]

@@utopia2112 I made the mistake in 5e of only letting my players use d10s instead of d20s. I would not have caught that small mistake if I had not recorded the session to try and put it on my patreon channel. You might also be using d10s and making other mistakes you don't realize because you are not recording your sessions. Also, RulesLawyer is running four characters, trying to give a class on how to play the game and GMing all the monsters. He might be a tad more distracted than you or I when we run our games, like that one time when you forced your players to use d10s instead of d20s that went over so badly. I heard that about you and thought: WOW, noway I want to play at that table!

[@utopia2112]

@@patron7906 For clarlity, I wasn't criticizing Rules Lawyer, though I did wonder if they had an off day (as we all do from time to time). The number of mistakes did make me wonder how hard running PF2 would actually be for newbie GMs. Maybe the KIND of mistakes he made would be useful to note. Perhaps those were among the easiest ones to make and therefore something to specifically watch out for.

[@narrawa2650]

I love how, as with every fight it seems, the fight ends with a completely overkill amount of damage!

[@KingAm0]

Damn, that information in the incapacitation trait seems pretty important for being so hidden. I can't be the only one who just assumed that incapacitation was just a trait to classify what sorts of things could counter it.

[@Lionbug]

„He gets a hero point for his creativity!“ Obama awarding himself meme xD

[@MarkHoltmanBTSD]

If you hold Shift while clicking the Damage button in chat, you can modify for resistances. If they had resistance 5 for the damage type, you can just type -5 in the modifier box and apply the damage accordingly. Might speed up your demos / games in the future. Love all your content so far!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Thanks, I'll try that. As you can see I usually add up stuff in my head but this is useful to know

[@SuperEagle112]

I’m jumping into a lvl.7 campaign tonight. And I have never played higher than lvl.2 before. Boosting a new character up to lvl.7 was so much fun and picking all of the amazing options. I’m looking forward to some high level combat and adventure tonight!

[@mrfikss]

I dig your videos a lot. I'd like to make a request for a Foundry series of How To's at some time.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Recall Knowledge is the go-to for PF2e specific Foundry tips. I do plan to do a video giving an overview of my Foundry setup, however!

[@gm9460]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG yes - details of your mods ! I still can’t get lighting to work properly 18 months in so I need to check out Recall Knowledge it seems

[@mrfikss]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG they've got some great videos for sure, but I would really like to have another explanation. Sometimes I need to hear how to do a thing in more than one way to fully understand it. I look forward to anything you'd like to do on Foundry.

[@lorenzovaletti4951]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I'd love to see that video about your foundry setup!

[@quark12000]

Rewatched this and noticed that you forgot about Valeros' Bravery class ability.

[@sunlitfoam4512]

I'm not gonna lie, I was rooting for the spectre it kinda went downhill after round 2 ... ooof ... he had so much of a chance ... Anyways, in my emotion-charged brain, I was wondering if going after the fighter would be a better option than the druid would be better since he was both already wounded and worse at will saves (man the druid really didn't want to betray his allies!!.) Of course, this would be a welcome exception to the attack-the-healer option.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Possibly... especially after it would've become aware that the Fighter had Attack of Opportunity. Still, going after the healer when dealing with a party is usually a good idea

[@Traumatree]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Like OP said, I think dispatching the fighter first (always kill the lowest hp target to remove future potential damage is still true to this day!) would have been better then going after the healer because the healer will still be able to heal. Very good fight demo, thx!

[@heyfell4301]

Specters are one of my favorite Pathfinder enemies. I once had a combat where my party of 5 level 5 players fought against a ghostly emperror using the stats of a Specter mounting a Nightmare. It was ridiculously tough, and they nearly died several times, especially since the Thaumaturge spent most of his time controlled, meaning all his turns were devoted to chasing the poor Rogue like a maniac, who had to run for his life in circles to avoid being hit by this very powerful PC who could most likely one-shot him with a good roll. The nightmare spammed his charge ability, causing tons of fire damage on the players every single turn. It all came to an end when the Nightmare failed his athletics roll to throw a pillar on the players, leading to them having the same idea and dropping that pillar on top of him. It was a matter of time until the Monk and the Champion dealt with the Specter, especially since the Thaumaturge had just escaped the control effect and now she and the Rogue could officially join the fight, and although the Summoner didn't know that, the Negative Healing on both enemies meant he could've obliterated that encounter with his 3-Action heal and his staff. The end of the fight was pretty epic as well. The fight was taking place on an underground crypt, but the boss specifically was the spirit of a once very powerful mage emperror, so I made him cast a spell that turned the ceiling into a night sky (it was ambiguous up until that point if the sky was illusory or if it was actually spacial magic, but they were about to find out), and knowing he was going to lose, that enemy decided to take one of the players out with him. He grabbed the Champion and started flying onto the night sky, hoping he could pull off the "if you kill me we'll both fall and she'll die" move. However, the Champion's turn was right after that, and before the Specter could gain more altitude, she pulled off the coolest trick I've ever seen. As I was describing the enemy as "semi-physical" and being able to grab people, I was ruling that it wasn't immune to being affected by the various athletic maneuvers, and a good Trip action could cast him out of the sky. So the Champion, smart as she is, Tripped him, leading to the amazing scene of her holy storm knight GRABBING the giant ghostly emperror and using a freaking suplex on him, making them both fall at incredible speed towards the ground and making them both hit the ground with deadly force, and while she got knocked down and the Specter still had plenty of hit points, he was now Prone and the rest of the party's turn came right after that, so they basically all piled on top of this giant ghost and obliterated him in an act of desperation to make the Champion's attempted sacrifice worth it. She was fine after that, the Rogue was good at medicine so he healed her up along with everyone else in the party. The boss had completely destroyed the group's HP, so that was necessary. Overall, this was the coolest combat I've had in Pathfinder so far and we will forever meme about "Suplexing a Ghost." In fact, now she describes every Trip attempt as a Suplex, and she even managed to Suplex a giant statue and *an Angel* later, so it's safe to say that that fight was awesome.

[@cheesecakeofdoom69]

I am running my first pf2e session on saturday. This has me pretty excited for the encounters I have planned.

[@Feralhyena]

Couldn't read that last note, but you are giving me some things to keep in mind with the Gymnast Swashbuckler character I'm running in Age of Ashes.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Thanks, I fixed the links at the end

[@andrewpalmer7080]

I could watch this all day. Thank you!

[@Thegn]

Kept yelling "3-action Heal" every time Ulrik's turn came up.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

LOL ideally, if he had more Heals prepared, yes. But as a druid he only had one 3rd-level Heal prepared. By the time he returned to dwarf form, the ghasts were pretty irrelevant. If he had cast his 3rd-level Heal with three actions, it would've restored only 3d8 to himself and his allies, and the specter would have had a saving throw to possibly halve or eliminate the damage. Meanwhile, the specter was hitting hard with single-target damage. So at 43:06 he used it to heal himself (the 2-action version gives the additional +24 to healing).

[@Rizaidym]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I thought that the three action heal also had that +24, or did I read that wrong?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@@Rizaidym Right, the +24 is only for the 2-action version (and only when healing a creature). It makes the # of actions you spend on the spell a more painful choice! (Contrary to what some folks ahem would suggest about variable-action spells in 2E)

[@Rizaidym]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I love variable action spells! Thanks for the clarification, I'm GMing for some Pathfinder newcomers tonight, and your videos have been very helpful.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@@Rizaidym I'm glad! New players trying out and learning the game is my goal!

[@FlameUser64]

@39:43 her Confident Finisher damage should have applied anyway, because she didn't critically fail and wasn't using Impaling Finisher.

[@johnjafon2410]

really helpful! thanks rule lawyer!

[@rainey82]

This is very enlightening!

[@SwingRipper]

What program are you using for these demonstrations? Roll20 does not work great for p2e and that UI looks really good!

[@gm9460]

Foundry VTT - vastly superior to Roll20. One off initial cost of $50 and then you don’t need to pay any more

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@@gm9460 Yes, Foundry VTT has my unqualified endorsement! There are many advantages to it, but the biggest things are that you don't have to pay for every book and adventure, AND you can import any official/watermarked PDF's maps and artwork into it with a single click!

[@lorenzovaletti4951]

FoundryVTT is the way ;)

[@FlameUser64]

@14:25 the Fighter chooses which direction the Shove is in, it does not have to be directly away from the Fighter. And if the fighter chooses a direction the ghast cannot be moved in (because there is a wall, another creature, or difficult terrain), then its choice to be shoved is retroactively invalid and it is made flat-footed instead. In this scenario, the Fighter could choose to shove it diagonally North-East, into another space of stairs, which are difficult terrain, and this would force it to be flat-footed instead, leaving it no choice in the matter.

[@anthonyfrost1123]

I think its weird how for the second time the fighters "Bravery" has not mattered. His player role played running away??? As a dm i would have tried to make sure the player really wanted to do that becaue to me it doesn't make sense

[@patron7906]

You roll against the ghast stench if you start your turn near them or enter their aura. Not if they approach you on their turn, no?

[@gm9460]

What is the low level video? The "This Ain't D&D" one?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Yes kzbin.info/www/bejne/hoPUYYmXg5Zgjqc

[@JonWaterfall]

8:00 I've always judged that aura effects happens on the players turn. It's a bit unclear to me if the RAW "when a creature ends its turn in the aura or when creatures enter the aura" means that any time the player comes into the radius regardles of if the aura moved to the players or the players entered, or if it's only when the player enters the aura.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

I thought about that at the time, too. I think thematically it makes more sense if they're immediately subjected to it. Also the way it's phrased doesn't preclude it happening on another creature's turn imo. What convinced me was thinking about a dragon. If a massive dragon flies toward the party, its Frightful Presence aura would affect them immediately, instead of after they each get a "fearless" turn

[@JonWaterfall]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG That also makes a lot of sense. I've taken a screenshot of this comment and posted it in my party's Discord server to remind myself and my players to try it with this ruling.

[@blagerthorpnonersense1894]

In pathfinder aren’t you supposed to treat every other diagonal as 10ft?

[@peterstedman6140]

At ~44:44 wouldn't the spectre's move provoke an attack of opportunity from the fighter?

[@clausjensen7401]

Thank you for interesting and educational videos, yes I'm that old, caling it videos. When the druid turns into a frog at 18.33, you mention that he gets the bonus of a martial character, due to being 5'th level. Why is that, what have I overlooked? I don't see it in the druids level progression, or under the spell. Would you be so kind as to explain this?

[@Wolfphototech]

*Nice .*

[@anneaunyme]

Around 39:12, wouldn't it have been more logical for Jirielle to switch targets? For example to attempt an impaling finisher on the druid who was already low on life. To me it makes little sense that the specter who controls her would make her make defensive moves like goading Valeros.

[@deathwingdt]

The specter was chasing his own target, attacking, moving around the battle field, so it does not have the time to control every last move of his thralls. If he gave Jirielle the command to deal with the double slicing fighter, she might pursue this command until the Specter gives her new orders. It's up to the GM how he handles this case, I think it was fine

[@anneaunyme]

@@deathwingdt Sure, you can play it that way, but even if it cost it an action I think the specter would have hugely benefited from making them change target instead of many of its other moves. Also per the rules this kind of control is not just "give one command and then they just dumbly follow it", it is way more akin to a constant control where each act is, well, controlled by the specter. It was fine, as in "I wouldn't mind my DM handling things like that", but imo not as in "this is an example of what happens when you fight this monster and the DM follows the rules closely"

[@YaBoiSebas]

Is Valeros using only one weapon currently? If so I don't think he would be able to use Double Slice. Unless it works differently than I understand.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

If he has a shield, you can attack with a shield in PF2, too

[@YaBoiSebas]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Forgot Shield Boss and Spikes were weapons!

[@naointeressa2251]

Why his token actions works as menus?

[@spoomer94]

tell me please how u got by default icons for monsters in bestiary? it's some module or what?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

At the time, I think I downloaded the artwork from Archives of Nethys and manually made the tokens using the TokenMagic module. Nowadays, the PDF to Foundry module lets you import and official watermarked PDF of the Bestiary and it makes all the tokens automatically for you.

[@larscasteen]

Around 3:12, you say that drawing an arrow provokes an attack of opportunity. Are you sure this is correct? It looks like Manipulate actions provoke, but I don't see much about Interact actions.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

First, the ranged attack would provoke an AoO already. The grey area for me was whether firing a bow had the Manipulate trait, which I believe it does. This came up in the 1st battle against the wights when one of them was grappling the Ranger. The description for Reload says the number "indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action." So the archer is still reloading/Interacting, and Interact actions have the Manipulate trait.

[@larscasteen]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I think what I was missing was the rule that "Interact actions have the Manipulate trait" - I hadn't drilled that deep down into the nested rules. Thank you!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@@larscasteen This "nested" nature to the rules is exactly what I think makes PF2 hard to LEARN. But once you learn the terms they are logical and make sense, and makes playing the game easier. So in the future whenever a Feat says "Interact to take out your weapon while you Quick Draw" you know that it will provoke an AoO. AND that you need a free hand, AND that if you're grappled you have to roll a DC 5 flat check. No need to write a whole paragraph on how it interacts with other rules in the system. And no guesswork by the players!

[@larscasteen]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG yeah, I’m totally in agreement. I love the system. I just missed that particular bit of nested rules, largely because attacks of opportunity are so rare.

[@jhonjimenez2844]

Hello my friend, I have a question.. when the dwarf druid uses wild shape and is transformed in a frog, I think he loses its darkvision and gains low light vision. And that will affect targeting the scorpion, right? I only ask because I'm learning about wild shape. Minute: 18:55 Great video btw!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Hmm you made me do some research-fu. It looks like you do NOT lose abilities granted by your ancestral form when you polymorph in PF2e. The limiting language that I found are in the Polymorph trait, which does NOT mention vision: "Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there's doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.) Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can't activate any items." The Animal Form spell says you "gain" low-light vision, not that it replaces your previous senses. Plus, it specifically says you gain its melee attacks "which are the only you attacks you can use." (while not saying anything similar about senses). This does make me wonder whether a high-level Strix loses their flight when they turn into a Frog, which makes sense... In the end because the rules aren't clear I think it's up to the GM.

[@jhonjimenez2844]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG cool, I think that the new form should be the rule over the original form, speaking about biological aspects as limbs, and senses. It will only still being affected in case of spells like darkvision, fly or effects (via ancestry feats) that the target uses after transformed (in this case the frog) like fiendish wings (tiefling) or celestial wings (aasimar), both ancestry feats at lev 9. .. this is just the way I would manage this situation, as homebrew rule.

[@marcincaputa1710]

This video is nice for shapeshifters. kzbin.info/www/bejne/a4fLeq2sq9Gmh5I

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

@@jhonjimenez2844 I think I would do the something similar (and thanks for bringing it up). Though I'd have darkvision conferred by magic still take effect. The rules say that effects that have the Morph trait may be negated by a polymorph effect. "Your morph effects might also end if you are polymorphed and the polymorph effect invalidates or overrides your morph effect. The GM determines which morph effects can be used together and which can't." So a feat like the Sylph ancestry feat Wings of Air, which has the morph trait, could be lost when polymorphing. That quote btw kind of confirms that the designers say this is up to the GM. So neither of us would be homebrewing, since the rules explicitly don't commit on this question.

[@jhonjimenez2844]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I agree and I'd like to add that if the morph effect affects a target under a polymorph effect (in this case, animal form) for example with wings of air, fiendish wings, celestial wings, energize wings, all of them ancestry feats with the morph trait and adding fly speed, it still applies normally. I mean.. if a level 9 or higher tiefling druid takes the frog animal form and after that it uses fiendish wings, he can be a winged frog. I say this because what I understand about morph effects is, they can be counteracted by a polymorph effect just in case the morph effect is already affecting the target, and no vice versa. In any case if I'm wrong .. maybe misreading the rules.. please let me know. Here I share the morph trait: MORPH trait Effects that slightly alter a creature’s form have the morph trait. Any Strikes specifically granted by a morph effect are magical. You can be affected by multiple morph spells at once, but if you morph the same body part more than once, the second morph effect attempts to counteract the first (in the same manner as two polymorph effects, described in that trait). Your morph effects might also end if you are polymorphed and the polymorph effect invalidates or overrides your morph effect. The GM determines which morph effects can be used together and which can’t.

[@flameloude]

How dare you delete an whole hour from us!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Think of it as "saved" or "reserved"! lol My original title called this the "Optional" combat but I thought that "Deleted" would stir the passions. Looks like it did! =D

[@ItWasSaucerShaped]

...ugh for me, this highlighted some significant negatives about Pathfinder 2E: - Consider the player experience of Jirelle. She loses Will saves and now doesn't even get to play the game anymore. Like... why is she even at the table? And on top of such a ridiculous CC effect, it has a compounding rather than mitigating lingering status effect. Can you imagine a game outside of the TTRPG design blindspot having that kind of effect? It wouldn't survive a beta test balance pass. - i can see why some players have voiced complaints about the number of bonus/penalty granting effects to track. Let's be real here - you also lost track of these things, and without the help of the VTT I suspect it would have been even worse. Also without a VTT, adding and subtracting and tracking and remembering bonuses/penalties is going to compound problems of someone like Jirelle who is stunlocked and must wait an age to get their turn only to just roll a Will save, fail it, and look forward to not having a next turn either. Fun! - So much of the game seems to be self-defeating, in that the game appears to be giving players cool stuff to do only to just turn those cool things off and basically force them to play Monopoly where they are just rolling and moving. Oh, you picked Feats that give you cool special bonus damage dice? Too bad, this enemy just invalidates that choice. Have fun laming out the encounter I guess, while your stunlocked friend goes to make a sandwich or whatever since they don't get to play anymore. There's just too much Gygaxian crap in here, stinking-up a design that has so much potential. Paizo needs to leave that behind and make their own stuff without being held back by outdated design ethos.

[@Chris3s]

If a creature controls a character, does the player still play them or is it done by the GM?

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

The GM! Though I often ask the player to do the rolls!

[@danitenotes]

​@@TheRulesLawyerRPG psychological warfare at its finest.

[@Xinderkan]

​@@TheRulesLawyerRPG That takes all the fun out of being controlled and getting to attack your allies though xD Though I guess the player can metagame and will probably make more effective and damaging decisions than a monster who doesn't fully understand them or the party.

[@soldier660]

21:13 I Disagree DM suffering its not fun XD !!! he he he

[@theangler1922]

Starting this video, I see: "Fighter breaks the illusion of choice rotation and tries to roleplay and makes encounter much more dangerous and less fun for party." On the first episode you mentioned how Rangers have different options to use, but what did this Ranger do the entire time? Hunt Prey, Retreat, Shoot. Sounds like a rotation to me.

[@certifiedfunnyguy]

I think you are definitely correct, I am a big fan of pf2e especially compared to 5e where any turn you weren't taking the attack action was spent trying to take the attack action next turn

[@Xinderkan]

Yeah, it is a good spot to point out that a ranger who builds to use a longbow, doesn't have many options compared to those who build for melee, to the point where for some, that is actually the reason they like it, one of my friends made a longbow ranger because of it's simplicity, they like that they get to just shoot stuff that therest of us have set up for them, with trips, grabs, spooks, buffs and debuffs

[@BossTripp1]

You play a little too technical… ghasts probably wouldn’t be running in and flanking everyone like that. They would try to overrun the pc’s paralyzing everyone that they can.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Hm, this is up to every GM, but I'd say here that nothing they do here prevents them from paralyzing anyone. Also I think their above average Intelligence favors their using the advantage of numbers and using pack tactics.

[@BossTripp1]

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I'd counter that with, is every intelligent person you met tactical. The most tactical class in the game pretty much uses intelligence as a dump stat right. So, why does intelligence have anything to do with how they fight. A rogue doesn't use intelligence and they flank all the time. I don't believe tactics has anything to do with intelligence. Wolves flank and they are not intelligent. I think that's where most gm's make things harder than they need to be.

[@vezrabuto7496]

because the players use their own intelligence to flank, not the characters int stat......? I second that ghasts would probably flank if they are in a group to provide a clean kill instead diddling about and fighting 1 v 1's. also they probably notice that valeros is stronger then what they usually fight so it makes sense to deal with him first using some tactics.

[@BossTripp1]

@@vezrabuto7496 Vampires are intelligent too, would they flank? I guess people who haven't actually fought would think leaving other party members alone to flank one guy would be intelligent. It's not...