Why You Shouldn't Go To Music School Explained

[@joshhoe]

Wow.... thank you for being so candid. I have never heard anyone being this direct and honest about their music school experience. Shocking about how support was taken away from the composition students

[@HiFiJi]

I'm almost in my mid 30's. Went to a top nationally recognized music school for my bachelors of music degree, got a full merit-based scholarship for grad school to continue classical music performance for a masters of music degree, and 1 year into grad school I came to the realization that I was unfulfilled doing specifically classical music, playing in orchestras, and that lifestyle, and I dropped out after the first year of grad school. I was 26 at that point and remember that because I put all my eggs in one basket with classical music since I was 11 years old, I knew nothing else and I felt lost; coasting, drifting, and giving up on myself. I became content living a life of mediocrity, working a job I hated, coming back and numbing my mind to mask the depression, rinse and repeat. 7 years later at 33 years old, I started experimenting with music production and discovered that music production has been the most passionate I have ever been with anything in my life. And now I am sacrificing all of my past distractions to make time for music production. I wish that it wouldn't have taken me this many years to discover that, but better now than never. It is important to have a mentor/coach in starting any new craft/endeavor, having a private teacher to help integrate best practices and avoid bad practices. The music theory and counterpoint classes were probably thee most useful knowledge I got from music school that overlaps into music production and definitely comes in handy, but there are also music classes that are also completely a waste of time like information in music history class. Some concepts they teach you in music school you will likely not ever use outside of school. You will have to take general education classes that are unrelated to music as a music major. And the credential you get of a 4 year music school degree is a very minor thing compared to your actual capabilities/what you can do, and the projects that you've created for your portfolio/catalog/discography.

[@in.stereo]

I work at a university. There are a lot of fragile egos in academia. And a lot of bureaucracy. Unfortunately it all rolls downhill and students suffer. I loved seeing your collaboration with your professor playing the erhu wow she sounds like a true virtuoso. Thanks for sharing your experience and being open about the shortcomings of the higher ed system

[@nicoleichiki5828]

Wow. I have so much to say on this topic. I was musically gifted as a kid. Always composing, songwriting, singing, arranging, etc. I played by ear and was lazy and didn't have the discipline to learn to read music. Life happened, lots of it. I didn't go back to school for music until I was 29. I was only interested in a MIDI applications course. I was then required to take a math and English placement test. I figured since I was going this far, I might as well go for my AA. I went to the local community college and started slowly working on general ed courses while I had a full time and part time job (sometimes I'd have only one class a semester)...but I never stopped. I went during summer and winter intercession. I figured, in my heart, when I was presented with the right moment, I'd get back to music one day. It bothered me that I wasn't creating and that I wasn't in school. My job of 7 years laid me off. I was so excited. I switched my job to the restaurant industry so I could switch my schedule to attend school for music full-time since I was almost done with the gen ed courses. My community college happens to be located in Southern California. In the mecca of the music industry. You'd think there'd be more connection and courses to figure out how to get there...but I've learned, you have to map it out yourself. My college had tons of music certificate courses but I was told basically that there are only two options for music majors: performance and education. I really didn't want either. I wanted music production and or audio engineering. At the community college level, I qualified for financial aid for all my units. I only paid for my books. I also stayed at the community college to complete the Music AA-T vs. the Music AA. The extra "T" is for "transfer", which ideally guarantees a transfer to a Cal State/ University of California school. (I had the option to take Music theory and musicianship levels 1-2 at the community college level, but I chose to do 1-4 instead - thinking that these units are paid at this school and the level of education was excellent) I'm so grateful for the decision I made on this. I later learned that the professor I had was so good that the other musicians that transferred to more revered music schools always felt their new classes were remedial to this professors. (I am actually working on writing a theory book with this professor because he has a versatile way of teaching). Anyway, I got the AA-T in Music (Voice concentration) along with other music certificates from the local community college. I had to map out which schools would accept all the music courses I took. I made appointments to go to Cal Poly Pomona (music industry major), Cal State Fullerton (produces great music educators and voice majors), Cal State Long Beach (produces great performers, special jazz concentration), Cal State Northridge (specializes in music therapy), Cal State Dominguez Hills (music audio program and lower GPA requirement). While counselors are kind hearted, they mostly concentrate on the big majors: English, Communications, etc. It is rare you find a counselor well-versed in music schools and their transfer requirements. I learned by doing it myself that they did accept my: History of Rock, History of Jazz, Music Business Basics, Jazz Ensemble, Piano levels 1-6, Basic Guitar, Concert Choir, Music Recording, etc. (you get the point). No where online does this information exist. I had to seek it out for myself. Pomona was the most interesting to me as they didn't just house performers and educators. They had a more broad approach when teaching about the music industry. I was most attracted to this school because they had a songwriting ensemble. I also chose this school because they have a Neve console. I got in on a scholarship and was required to perform in so many ensembles every semester. My concentration was audio engineering and music industry studies. The only downside to getting accepted and attending this school when I did, was it was in the middle of the Covid pandemic. I couldn't attend MUSIC classes in person. There was a technology learning curve (you weren't in my life yet. lol). I got my Bachelor's in Music with a concentration on Music Industry Studies and Audio Engineering. That being said, I've done both studio and live sound and feel short changed when comparing my knowledge to a peer who went to Cal State Dominguez Hills. I feel their program was more technical (you build a microphone or amp in your first year of courses), while my school gives you a more broad view and provides different approaches on how you might apply yourself in the industry. Fast forward two years, I now have 2 kids and work for the California department of Labor. My education bill was about $27,000. If I continue to work for the state, I get that bill wiped clean. This job allows me to work from home 3 of 5 days out of the week, therefore providing me some downtime to create and get back to music. I am one of those people that can't ever stop tho...and am thinking about a Master's degree and a multitude of music business ideas that I am told would be profitable. I just need to prioritize, and execute. Your channel has been so helpful. The quality, time, details, and dedication do not go unnoticed. I am still learning. Thank you!

[@BillCypher95]

This holds so true even outside of the US and different subjects completely. I quit Uni when I was actually very close to finishing it because I just couldn't stomach it anymore. Thankfully I was more than able to code and had the chance to prove it professionally even without a university degree, but it did require a lot of luck ending up where I am now, I could see a world where I'm not even offered the chance to show that I'm perfectly able to do my job just because I didn't get a piece of paper that you get by doing mostly completely unrelated things.

[@tiffanyanthony]

Great vid! I love that you shared this. It’s so nice to know your background. I’m sure this will help young people assess their schooling and skill needs. You should come back east and open your own school!!

[@demonicsweaters]

Dude. You really let it all out on this post. What a great, eye opening and amazing video.

[@Taetro]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@demonicsweaters]

@@Taetro BTW, I teach full time and have no degree :)

[@Taetro]

we LOVE to hear it

[@stolenwasmylife]

Thanks so much for your honesty! Has someone that's super passionate about music, play several instruments and loves making electronic music, I'm glad this is just my passion and hobby and not something I'm trying to earn a living at. I never would have survived even one month of being forced to learn jazz or classical music!

[@wildandbeautiful]

Like you, i started college as music major because i love music and that’s what i did in high school. Like you i discovered that a music major wasn’t about love of music but of ego, competition and the like. I think the program i went to was more relevant with curriculum but that was just before digital music burst on the scene. I changed majors to psychology after one semester and now have a career as a PhD psychologist. but continued to participate in orchestra. Thanks for the candor. You are an EXCELLENT teacher you have helped me return to my roots in love of music as i’m moving towards retirement and now i’m making beats. I love the bio parts of this video too. Thanks Taetro.

[@intriguedviewer501]

As a former music major, this hits home

[@Taetro]

How was your experience?

[@intriguedviewer501]

@@Taetro The school I went to was fully devoted to the arts, and the experience itself was awesome. Walking into the cafeteria you would hear people just break into songs, see people performing choreographed dances in the hallways between class, feel the bass lines rumbling from the rehearsal rooms. I was able to work on an SSL 40 track console, maintained a reel to reel tape deck, and had "lab time" just to mess around with the gear. It was a once in a life time experience.... however, the vast majority of what I learned wasn't practical for me and was becoming outdated even then. The only course that I felt was still relevant to me today was a class I took on arrangement and COMPOSITION. We listened to songs, broke down when certain instruments came in and out, what voicings they played and how things were written to gel together organically. Learning sheet music, performing esoteric jazz chords on my guitar, operating high end studio equipment... all of that was lost in the wind. Learning the fundamentals of how a song is constructed and pieced together, that's what really matters in the end. So yeah, hearing how your school pivoted away from the one thing was worthwhile can make your blood boil. In the end, I changed my major and got a career outside of music. Music is "just" a hobby for me now, but I get to play by my own rules and not have any financial stake in it. Truth be told, I learned more from participating in Beatober than my year as a music major.

[@tjdeuph]

I really don’t need a second invitation to rant about this, but I’ll TRY to keep it brief (I have passionate feelings about this topic) - I went to a state university and got my Bachelor’s in Music Education. I had to pay a “music fee” and a “lessons fee” every semester but they weren't nearly as bad as the ones seen in this video. I was required to live on campus and have a meal plan my freshman year. I graduated a couple years ago with $15k in debt. Going into college, I was certain I wanted to be a high school band director, and I wanted to give back the knowledge that I had gained through my studies. I grew up in a small town and didn’t really have access to private lessons. All of the success I had on the euphonium came from me watching youtube tutorials, trying to emulate the sound of great players, and analyzing recordings of my own playing. Sound familiar? Two years into my degree I got burnt out of the whole “classical” thing, and I kept my sanity by listening to copious amounts of lofi. I’m not entirely sure where my obsession started, but it made me curious about making beats. I took a couple music technology electives and that’s how I learned Ableton. In my last year of school, I found rehearsing/teaching large ensembles to be rather unfulfilling. I was more fascinated by creativity and using music as an outlet of expression. I didn’t feel like teaching satisfied that itch. I slowly developed a new love for pop, edm, house, and so many other forms of electronic music. It’s the kind of music that is frowned upon by “traditional” musicians, and frankly it just isn’t talked about in music school (Bach is love Bach is life). I felt alienated by my love for popular music because I was surrounded by music educators who ironically didn’t really listen to music. (No, they had not heard any of the new albums). I am a firm believer that DAWs can be taught in the same setting as band, choir, and orchestra, but music educators aren’t ready for that conversation. The whole curriculum would probably need to be reworked, but maybe that's what SHOULD happen. Creativity needs to be fostered, and so do music careers outside of teaching. What if instead of just having another concert, ensembles performed original student compositions that demonstrated the power and versatility of DAWs (like what we saw in this video)? At the end of the day, it’s the same 12 notes, right? Music school is only worth it if you are truly passionate about music and you want to teach. Keep the costs as low as possible, and make sure you click with the professor who you will study with privately. Many professors are open to having little trial lessons during your application process. You just have to send emails and communicate with them. If you want to land a job in the music industry or you are more passionate about the creative aspect of music, you are better off playing in ensembles, taking private lessons, and majoring in basically anything else. If you want to study music production…… don’t? There are more internships and jobs in the music industry for people with journalism, electrical/software engineering, and business degrees than there are for people with music degrees. I did have the privilege of interning with a music technology company after graduating college, but it was a very lucky one-off thing. In my current day-to-day life, I am a barista and I teach private lessons and group lessons. I also have a few other random teaching gigs here and there. I am thankful for the opportunities I currently have, and I do love teaching lessons. However, there is an unfortunate divide between electronic and traditional musicians that simply doesn’t need to exist. DAWs are not the future, they are the present. Music education needs to catch up.

[@Iwritebeatsnottragedies]

Thank you for your story, couldn’t agree more

[@gabkiu]

thank you for everything man words cant describe how impactful this video is, seriously

[@TheEasterFerret]

Thank you for your honesty on this one! I think a lot of students going for creative careers get caught in the trap of thinking college is a silver bullet for skills, but it isn't going to give you that. All you really need is to know how to use the tools and then just hammer away at it relentlessly. And now we have a never ending stream of teachers available free or inexpensively at home, something that wasn't a thing 20 years ago.

[@AmeliaPlayz]

Watching this as I'm working on my bachelor's of art in voice performance at Berklee Online's program. Wish I can say I'm enjoying it but, it feels like my soul has been sucked out of me. I've loved music ever since I was in kindergarten now I'm not so sure anymore.

[@Taetro]

it's funny how you should really be feeling the opposite at this stage, but the wrong professors or the wrong structure can suck the joy right out of the music.

[@tedlivermore6955]

Might want to think about doing something else and music for fun/hobby.Seriously there is alot of other options. Good luck

[@plusmin09]

The biggest reason to go to Berklee is the contacts that they can make in person. Berklee is really expensive! If you're just doing it online then you miss out on the opportunities that are the real benefit that you get from going to a music school like Berklee. JMHO but if I were you I would not focus my efforts towards getting that online degree, unless you're actually enjoying it and feel a benefit from it. Shift your energy to pursuing the part of music that really inspires you! Whether that's writing, performance, whatever. Ride the wave of energy and passion that I assume you have now in your youth! Getting the obligatory degree is a dated notion and really not a smart financial choice in a lot of cases at this point in the US. Don't let others, (especially people from past generations who are still stuck on the "degree is everything" idea), pressure you into going to school just because. It is really not worth the financial and time cost for a degree in music in most cases. Best wishes!

[@karacoldmusic]

So are you gonna do a celebration of your 10 years on youtube? Loved to hear your story. There's so many ways to learn about music now a days besides the traditional school route.

[@Taetro]

I literally never even considered it !!

[@karacoldmusic]

@@Taetro I think it'd be really cool.

[@jaimeross7507]

@@Taetro Maybe Invite dokter ronni 🤡

[@iasyama1999]

having gone through audio engineering in an arts school this really hits home. The people I've met are not fun to be around, alot project a persona or facade in which personally I find exhausting. Not only that but the professors are always finding ways to rebute your points instead of understanding. For example, we were told to record and mix and show them. They did not even give constructive criticism on what could be better or what was wrong, it was more of this sounds bad, haven't we taught you this and that?. Can you imagine an audio engineering school not teaching any basics but be surprised when students don't know this or that mixing technique but tells us to not listen to KZbin. All in all, the 3 years seemed like a bad dream.

[@mountainpiercer]

Love the really BASED Taetro I'm happy I studied my music theory, practice and composition in private. Public school in Italy has the same closed mentality in 80% of the case. Electronic music or sound engineer figure exists only from 2-3 years only. It's sad.

[@TsolProductionsMedia]

Really cool to hear your experience, thanks for sharing!

[@dustyaudio]

I did a single semester at Columbia in Chicago for audio engineering, I immediately knew the “structure” was not something that made sense for me. Especially for the price

[@Taetro]

The “structure” that’s designed to keep you there as long as possible so they can keep sending a bil!!

[@dustyaudio]

@@TaetroI was lucky to see that at the time. I think I made the correct decision, back then (2005 wow) I just had no access to any level of equipment aside from my 4 track tascam & bass. College seemed like a way to get to experience a studio environment. That wasn’t the reality with the other requirements and lectures

[@plusmin09]

I am currently a professional musician and had a similar experience studying music in college. The university I went to had a jazz band but they considered it a club and not a valid band, so it would not satisfy the credit requirements for the performance part of your degree. If your main instrument is guitar then you would have to play only classical and go in front of a judge panel every semester, and even that didn't count as your performance. So along with that you would have to perform in a choir for the actual performance requirements for your degree! My main instrument is actually bass guitar, but they didn't even consider that an instrument! I was also blown away by how little interest my peers had in music. They were all band kids from high school going straight into college to get a music degree. They all did the bare minimum for a good grade in their classes but seemed to have no interest in music as an actual expression or art. I tried making friends and suggested us getting together outside of school to jam or work on music ourselves and I was frequently met with a perplexed stare followed with a "no thanks". I went into college looking forward to learning new things and forging new relationships that would hopefully expand my mind and help me in pursuing my craft. I left with ZERO relationships with other musicians, and a meager amount of knowledge of crap that really has had no impact in helping me succeed in my career as a professional musician. ( I already knew a decent amount of theory, and the little bit of extra terminology I learned in my college theory classes are really only applicable in academia) If I were to do it over again, I would not go to college, or if I had to I would choose a degree in business or something actually applicable to pursuing music professionally and the entrepreneurial parts that come with it.

[@beccasilvia8220]

As a music major who goes to the university you went to: THANK YOU

[@Taetro]

you and your fellow students do have some collective power to change some things while you’re there. If the opportunity arises to make the program better and have your voice heard, please take it!

[@KennenButlerMusic]

I feel you!! Fully had this experience the first time I attempted school. It was heinous. I will say that coming back almost 20 years later to do my music degree has changed a lot of the way that I view it. I'm not studying anything regarding teaching because that's not my bag, but I feel like I'm avoiding a lot of the pitfalls that happened to me the first time around. The experience of navigating the ghetto streets of adulthood and the music industry has made it way easier for me to be able to challenge the egos in academia, the bureaucracy, and business of it all. Still a massive undertaking that I don't understand why we thrust it on students just graduating high school, but I have been able to find value in the institution I chose as an adult.

[@Taetro]

this is a HUGE point here. It's really difficult as a young person to be able to navigate these situations and if I had to do it again now, I'd be much more well equipped.

[@christiancamarao1733]

We went to the same undergrad, I actually attended one of your talks at PWS. Always wondered why the composition major got axed, I basically had to scrounge together everything I wanted to learn. Sharing this with my other umass Dartmouth alums

[@Taetro]

glad to hear from a fellow alum. Would love to hear more about your experience in the program

[@christiancamarao1733]

@@Taetro absolutely, do you have an email I could write to?

[@Taetro]

I think if you share your experience here in a public space it will serve a lot of people to see an additional perspective! But also you can DM me on IG

[@wayneman_]

Thank you for the insight. Very helpful and useful info. As someone who is going to school for music, I’m going for audio engineering instead of actual music. I want to learn how to piece music together and apply what little theory i have

[@Taetro]

I think the practical nature of audio engineering will save you from some of the pitfalls of a traditional music degree!

[@ciadella1971]

I attended the Berklee College of Music back in 1991 to 1993. I paid $37,000 in tuition. That included my food and dorm. Those two years were two of the best years of my life. The experiences i had and the people I met were worth the price of tuition. Unfortunately, the music scene and business changed dramically in the 90s. I did do alot of professional playing and teaching in the years after I left Berklee. And now, 34 years later, I still play live, teach and enjoy it!

[@michaeldawson8487]

Excelent! Agree 100%. I´m a professional musician and happily i didn´t studied in a Institution. I did studied with two great musicians (almost a year with each) when i just went out of school. And of course i started jammin with more people, composing, studying theory, and started working as a guitarrist with a cover band.

[@Drawlen]

The systemic problems you identified I think apply to many majors certainly did to mine. I hope this video circulates wildly because the truth of the matter is college isn’t very good investment anymore. There there are so many hidden costs and so much time involved that doesn’t really generate anything worthwhile. Technology is changing so fast that our ability to learn is no longer tied to colleges; and often better experiences could be had through targeted certificates or other more relevant and practical to our actual life pursuits. For the motivated learner, it is often more relevant to learn independently. Here, online learning helped me access classes that weren't available due to scheduling issues. I worked full-time while attending college. It took me nearly 6 years complete a bachelors degree, BGSU 2010. In the long run, I just had a lot of student loan debt. I enjoyed the learning and developing critical thinking skills; however, in the market it provided me nothing. Currently, I’m retired and still paying off student loan debt.

[@AnantGadia]

Bang on !!!! I live in india and I went a Music school here and everything that you said sounds so relatable to me, it really is the similar case here as well.

[@h5mind373]

Our son plays piano and guitar. He's in a pop group, does a Big Band, and has worked with several local orchestras. He has received formal training at two conservatories and three "regular" music schools. All of the above are outside the US. Consequently, we have spent less than $10K for seven years of school and individual lessons. In addition to his core instruments, he also studies dance and singing. Coincidentally, we live a few miles away from the Berklee, Valencia campus. We briefly considered that school until we saw the tuition rates. All I can say is their marketing must be incredible to charge as much as they do. The ROI for most music schools simply isn't there.

[@Taetro]

you're right about the marketing part!! helps them get away with a lot. Awesome that your son had all those opportunities! Thanks for supporting your kid in pursuit of music!!

[@lavotthegreatmane]

I send your video to my BM she is having a issue with her professor I was tell her this is a different view about professors, actions towards students

[@jayjayd_123]

I’m a current music major and it has been nothing short of life changing for me. I’m currently at Berklee College of Music and I’ve seen tremendous growth for both my platform, and my musical ability/knowledge. It’s a shame that you put such a strict answer that it is almost never worth it as I’ve found it quite the opposite. The connections you make, the theory you learn, the history, the experience, it’s all amazing. I’m sure there that the school you choose to attend has a large impact on what you get out of it, but for example, Berklee offers “EDI” as an instrument option, to which I chose to be my principle instrument. I feel like I’m at the cusp of modern electronic music innovation with brand new knowledge being fed straight to me. Also, in terms of “I’ll never know what I’ll need a German 6 chord for” I studied counterpoint and tonal harmony and I like to think of those as history classes. Why do we study Christopher Columbus and colonization, and war in standard education? So that we can learn where things come from and innovate in it. Of course I also took modern harmony which changed my life, but that’s obvious. The one gripe I do have is the liberal arts classes or the “standard school classes”. It does feel like a waste of money to learn things we already spent time learning for the last 18 years of primary school, but nonetheless, I find it worth it. You’ve inspired me to make a video about my experience once I graduate, as I think it’s only fair that I wait out the full duration as you did. I wholeheartedly believe that your experience was not worth it, but someone on the edge of choosing a school like Berklee or Juilliard could be completely deterred by this video when they could truly experience something life changing. The answer is, it depends.

[@Taetro]

I’m glad you’re having a good experience! EDI doesn’t exist at many schools still to this day. I also know that there are pitfalls within Berklee’s structure that for sure need work. But awesome to hear it’s working for you. That said, you for sure need a bit of perspective if you think learning counterpoint is the same as learning about war and colonialism. fun trivia does not equal important info. I would also encourage you to reflect on your experience not just after graduating, but a few years down the line after you progress in your career. Also, mind sharing how you are paying for school?

[@figueroa661]

Your observations and advice feel applicable to almost any liberal arts degree, speaking as a literature major

[@tanukibrahma]

I have so many conflicting opinions on this from my own experiences. I moved to LA in 1980 with the idea of composing film music. Went to Los Angeles Valley College where one teacher, Don Nelligan, hooked me and others up with film studios, composers, and music editors. While watching the likes of Earl Hagen conduct his score at Warner Bros, and having an original orchestra piece conducted by TV composer Don Ray were awesome experiences, those connections didn’t pay off for me due to my own failings of mainly laziness and personality issues. Nonetheless, a fellow student, guitarist Michael McCormick, connected me with the Los Angeles Guitar Quartet (who at the time were at USC where my friend transferred as a student) and they played a piece of mine on a US/Mexico tour that received many positive reviews. I ultimately went to USC on scholarship and grants for undergrad, then received a masters in theory/comp tuition-free as a teaching assistant. This didn’t further my career as a musician (again due to my own failings) but it did land me a decent staff position at a very good state university (primarily through a USC connection) where I interacted and worked with many brilliant and successful musicians for 27 years. Now I’m retired on a UC pension and make music as a hobby every day. Was it worth it? (Shrugs) I should say that college gave me a good foundation for composing and appreciating music beyond career-goal stuff, so I guess it was.

[@alwayslaughin5394]

Wow .. I know you’re not a huge KZbinr . But I totally expected to take my phone off of horizontal mode and see this video reaching a mil views . You’re really well spoken taetro.

[@shawndaniel7673]

Great video! Pretty aware of the school you're alluding to.... Had a similar experience at one of the other schools in that system without naming names....though I will say out of those schools, UML seems to have embraced the contemporary path the most.

[@Taetro]

Yes Lowell has that production focus which is good, haven’t heard much about that program these days tho. Wonder how it’s going there!

[@shawndaniel7673]

@ Had to do a quick Google search now that we're on that subject....it's got an alright curriculum...it is more than classical music trivia hahahaha. Though now if I'm remembering correctly from my high school days (only really like 12ish years ago...wow I'm dating myself), a pre req of getting into that program was taking an honors level physics class? No thanks lol.

[@shawndaniel7673]

Had to do a quick Google search now that we're on that subject....it's got an alright curriculum...it is more than classical music trivia hahahaha. Though now if I'm remembering correctly from my high school days (only really like 12ish years ago...wow I'm dating myself), a pre req of getting into that program was taking an honors level physics class? No thanks lol.@@Taetro

[@MayAnneLuyun]

the advice I needed before entering the conservatory in 2005 😆

[@owizlo]

i think the reason to go to music school is to get a music ed degree then teach high school band for 9/10 music students. i did it. i had the same experience. i principled guitar and frenchhorn. it was a lot of elitism. people majored in music performance and they were trying to be in a big city orchestra. as a performance major i was told i could "get a job on a cruise ship" but i did get a free grey meanie arp 2600 from my guitar pro.i sold it and built my bands setup. so in a way music school built my first studio lol parents probably spent 100k. totally absurd.

[@owizlo]

my school also removed comp the early 2000s. also a state uni

[@SpiritDK]

the "elitism" is a common HUGGGEE problem in a lot of places in the music world, I have seen in Facebook groups, forums or in or under youtube videos so many times where a person asks a simple question like "is a Harley Benton a good starter bass?" or "can I start making music on an Arturia minilab" and getting harshly criticised "no that is trash, it'll brake in a week, or it's sounds like crap, you'll regret getting such a cheap instrument"

[@Taetro]

this is true! it comes down to people with very little experience speaking very confidently. The difference here is you can choose to listen to people with demonstrable experience & expertise and ignore everyone else.

[@tedlivermore6955]

Even in the music store some of the workers seem to be elitist music snobs😂

[@jedidja]

The same thing is true for CS .. I went to school from 95-99 and there was very little in classes that helped in the real world. The only saving grace was having co-op terms, so we did get experience in 3rd and 4th year that translated into getting hired afterwards.

[@wimeik]

Wow, I feel as if we have lived an incredibly similar experience on opposite sides of the world. I went to school in Sydney & I remember my teacher telling me that I couldn’t use a sampler in a performance because it was cheating. She said “all you’re doing is pushing buttons”… But all the piano students are sort of just pushing buttons too right 🤔

[@Taetro]

such a common and toxic sentiment. Any professor like this should be fired on the spot.

[@InvertedPopesMusic]

As someone who went through the HE system (ARTS) and then worked in those institutions, I have witnessed to change from education to just a system of bums on seats. It is all about the finances now and how much can the institution get. There are less resources, less staff, less support, less education yet the student numbers have increased from a year group of 25 to a year group of 300 . In the end your question is very valid, and for me did I need an Masters, NO!

[@robinlee28]

Composers are the top of the hierarchy in the music business. No wonder they are so derided.

[@GourlieRecords]

Unfortunately, 100% of this resonates outside of music majors as well. Everything you outlined is what's wrong with the 4-year university formula in general. Unless you need a degree which requires access to high-tech equipment (science/medical labs, observatories, etc) there really isn't a solid case to be made for anyone to go to a 4-year university. Even in departments like business you'll find professors who have never successfully run a business and are just good at teaching the textbook material. My diploma was just an expensive participation certificate and the money would have been better spent literally anywhere else. Also a side note of where the money goes... the president of my university (Washington State University) makes almost $800k. Someone make sense out of why the president of one state school makes more than the president of the United States. 🤔

[@Taetro]

YUP! A systemic issue all around. Institutional education is flat out broken.

[@ditcherwaker]

And not only in the states, I feel in my country too. Ones i ended my degree when i looked for jobs i didnt had anything or almost anything than they asked for. I learned more in the internet to make a career now in my field with much less money and time spend. Uni is a very expensive paper than teaches almost nothing useful cause many of the people there have 0 real experience

[@pavedwave]

I'd really like to know how most career musicians in the US get health care if they're not working for some big corporation, especially in later years / retirement, where they might play consistent gigs. The money might be good enough to cover the basics, but not having affordable health care can be a deal breaker.

[@Taetro]

yeah it's a problem beyond just musicians! Since I'm freelance I pay a pretty big monthly fee for health insurance that is basically the bare minimum

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

5:21 To be fair why did you go to a school teaching jazz and classical stuff when you wanted to do other things... Kinda like going to veterinary school then complaining you can't use that knowledge in heart surgey.

[@DeadpoolPlayz]

Where should he have gone then?

[@darthcrios]

The new thumbnail is Lit

[@simofresh]

i wish i saw this video before music school, it was my worst life experience and despite i learned useful tools i regret it :(

[@ilopezgMD]

In Mexico, "public university" means you pay a really low fee. Can go from cents of a dollar to like a 200 dollar mark. There are top public universities that have fierce competition, like tens of thousands of students competing for some hundreds spots (no kidding). I actually believe public universities in here should charge more for those who can. It would be a good way to support them. My area is medicine. I graduated from a public university and my education allowed me to go to top hospitals in here to do residency. There are no gaps between public and private once you are doing a speciality. Completely different scenario. Love your videos. Thanks for sharing your story.

[@MreenalMams]

My experience was very similar.. minus the cost.. here in india it isn't anywhere near as expensive as your costs.. but even then the experience of the class hours themselves were to put it mildly 'not cherishable'.. i don't think i regret it as i also can't see what better option I could have taken.. but also i wish music colleges and universities were better than what i experienced..

[@DojoOfCool]

I went to two music schools and worked for the one school for almost ten years. So I've been around music education from view of student and staff. I went and worked at big name private music schools but was a student in a regular college for awhile. First this is don't go to music school to learn music you're wasting your money. You should go to music school to polish your skills, fill in some holes in your knowledge and most important to make contacts for future work. Also if you think going to music school and just doing the curriculum will make you better musician you are wrong. If you go to school do all the work and play in all the ensemble you will only come out a little better than you went in. You go to music school for the environment the resources available, to meet people you can jam and maybe gig with while in school, and to talk to experienced musician that teach. My time in music school the best learn went on in the "office hours" session with teacher not in the classrooms. The "office hours" gave you a chance to ask question about anything music, gave you a chance to play for and with experienced musicians a lot of knowledge is shared in those informal get together. Then music school have good resources libraries full of videos and recordings, practice room, classroom to get together and play with others, and places to just sit with other student to talk music. The most important this is when you're in music school you a living music 24/7 that is the real value is time to live a musicians life. Now music school is very expensive and in today's world it really isn't worth it especially if you're performance major on some instrument. You be better off taking that same money moving to a city know for it music scene, get private lessons with a good teacher, and then at night hit the clubs that have jam sessions to play. Also puts you in a place with other musicians in the same boat as you and you can play with them to make contacts and start building your network of musicians. Being part of a network of musician helps to find work, typical members of a network since they've played together a lot recommend each other for gigs. Now if you still want to go to a legit music school as I said don't be a instrument performance major you have to be very versatile in todays world to make enough to pay your bills and live. So take music business classes, composition classes, recording classes, technology classes to know how to use the internet to promote yourself. You need all those skills in other to keep a steady flow of money to live on. So music school isn't the answer most think it is, go to music school to use it's resources, build up your contacts, and trying to start working. The old saying about music school that is still true today.... If you graduated music school you weren't that good. The really good musicians that went to music schools usually quit school after about two years because they were already started getting gigs where the real education is.

[@jaimeross7507]

BRAVO!!!....❤.

[@Mary_Jade_0]

sooo, what should I do?

[@alemusicgirl]

very interesting , i played piano 8 years and i left.. i can confirm a lot of money but i kept music as a passion that the most important thing

[@Turtlpwr]

Great video, amazing channel.

[@ElliottK865]

An associates degree in business/entrepreneurship might be the more valuable degree for an aspiring professional musician, since we work as independent contractors and sole proprietors. Even the business degree isn't absolutely necessary, but it may save you from making some painful and expensive mistakes.

[@Taetro]

THE TRUEST THING!!

[@yungsmoke8294]

How so? im currently a business/entrepreneurship student in my 3rd year with a minor in music business but am in the process of changing my major to music business as a major as i will be able to apply for voice due to the fact im an aspiring artist and thats my dream. I feel the business degree is a bigger scam than anything and im not learning anything, at least music business teaches the things i need as an artist and will help me vocally and from a knowledge perspective that i wouldnt get otherwise. Just curious why you say this as im in the complete opposite opinion as you

[@ElliottK865]

@ as a working musician, you will most likely be an independent contractor as opposed to a regular employee. An associates in business or at least the Introductory coursework in management, finance, marketing, accounting and economics give you an advantage here. You will also need to cultivate multiple streams of income as a musician - performing, teaching, and part-time work unrelated to music. You can gain the music knowledge you need through independent study, but that depends on your goals. Some career paths in music do require it, but so many do not. I’ve seen so many talented people in music and other creative fields struggle financially because they don’t have basic business skills.

[@Slimdancer]

I self taught myself for since high school. Now today there so many courses you can find without breaking the bank. Tonebase is awesome

[@Taetro]

definitely!

[@XiLLiKTHePOaM]

I know one Could easily watch your videos and learn exceptionally well how to make music. But I suggest a course... for those of us who need hands on instruction whether it be live or pre-recorded. We who've bought MIDI keyboards but just haven't had the drive to learn how to use them... sincerely would appreciate a keyboard and software crash course... maybe MPC? Or ableton I know I think I've got both of those for free with my MPK. Which we would be happy to pay for.

[@anidemolimacnauj]

I considered going to music school, didn't seem like a good idea. Being a musician isn't easy; in my experience, most people end up either doing something else that is not necessarily good money of get by through a combination of social media, teaching, production, gigs ... not much income from creating and playing their music. Instead of going to music school, I studied with great private tutors that where aligned with my goals and didn't charge a small fortune. Didn't had to pay for random irrelevant clases, didn't had to deal with drama queens.

[@NgynMusic]

i went to school in Vancouver Canada, Dropped out half way. 600k monthly listensers. Make extra income from music. Figured it out myself. You don't need school. You need to learn to connect with other creatives.

[@smdarwin]

I received a lot of information and I have a lot of knowledge, however I find myself stuck because I don't know how to apply all that "knowledge."

[@gdslick]

You don't need to study literature at college or university if you want to be a writer. You don't need to go to art school if you want to be an artist. You don't need to go to drama school to be an actor. All of the arts are the same. It is one way to develop your craft. It's not always the best way, but it is one way.

[@MrLeeallen]

I’m an 17 year old turning 18 and I don’t want to go to college. I feel college is a scam on so many levels, paying 100 grand to practice an instrument is so horrible.

[@iothemighty]

7:34 WAIT YOU WENT TO UMASS DARTMOUTH?! I forgot you were from Mass originally you almost had me fooled! My dad teaches chemistry over there.

[@sielsounds]

This thumbnail slays LOL

[@Taetro]

Haha spoiler for the video right in the thumbnail

[@natas-6747]

I would guess that they look down at anything other then jazz and classical is because if you develop a strong knowledge of jazz and classical. Everything else is Child's play so to speak. Tremendously easier. Not the opposite.

[@Taetro]

really? I know a lot of jazz & classical players that would struggle to recreate even simple musical gestures and sound design features with a DAW on a laptop. One isn't more valuable than the other. Also, I don't look down on classical & jazz musicians for lacking that specific skill. The same is not true in reverse.

[@ms_sassycass]

I have strong opinions about ANY art school... $11,000 for 5 classes, 1 term and a credential that doesn't matter. KZbin has taught me more than any school could and it's free 🤷‍♀

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

It was worth it to my grilfreind to learn the buisnues and how to be a good artest... But then again we can't afford schools like the one described in the video...

[@davidchang5862]

Hmm.. So schools these days are like some sorts of scam establishments, whereas KZbin is the real deal ?

[@pt12lol]

We have free public education system in my country, so we don't have to pay for music education at all. Although... I think that the environment is toxic. Private sympathies are more important than skills. I personally landed on composition studies and I really believed in my competences that I evaluate incredibly low now from the time perspective! That was all because I was liked by the specific professor. It distracted me from drilling skills that would be certainly way more useful for my musical identity. Also - what I hate about music school is the approach to interval-based ear training...

[@jessegonzalez6929]

The Ronnie's of the world really suck. Shout out to the network of friends and colleagues I met along the way in college, without them I'd have dropped out. Also shout out to Taetro -- very candid video!

[@jenniferd.820]

It's amazing how someone can go out of their way to make learning something you love feel like a prison sentence smh. I'd think that a music program would be just that, and allow you to fully immerse yourself into the various aspects of music.

[@djkanyon]

I beat the music school with flying colors bro... still hate everything about it. Music theory is unnecessarily overcomplicated and the stuff they makes you play was kinda taxing... you know, a tall order everytime. Also... bureaucracy, egos, nepotism etc. All of this without any promises to you in the future. You play live in public concerts for free and don't you even dare to ask for a penny. And after you graduated they give you only two options - to continue this for at least five years more or get lost.

[@bonzodachimp6897]

So you went to music school because you wanted to be a musician. You did no prior research and initially wanted to major in trumpet for no reason other than you could play it. Then you switched to voice and were surprised that the only genres of focus at an academic institution are the ones that have areas of academic study established. The people who knew what they were getting into at music school were people interested in jazz and classical music, and when they didn't share your tastes, you felt yourself the victim of elitism. Following this you pursued the avenue of electronic music/composition. At this point you had your course of action in mind and the school had a leadership change, which I will admit is unfortunate, and I empathize with you here. I liked your piece, and I respect you for finding your footing at this point. To be honest with you, it sounds like you didn't take the college selection process and research process seriously. The advice that you give at the end of the video to "exhaust every option" is not advice that you followed. I find it hard to feel as though your struggles pre-ronnie were anyone's fault but yours, and the post-ronnie era was a sudden and unexpected twist that will not happen at most institutions over a four year time span. I think this is something you should acknowledge. Your experiences are a unique case and are likely a rarity, especially among your initial fellow trumpet majors. Understandably, music school was an experience that left you feeling burnt, but your telling of this story reflects that this is common but does not address your biases. i mean fuck it tho its your youtube channel tell your story the way you want to tell it. im a senior in high school planning to pursue music as a cello performance major at a university in a big city with a teacher that has connections to a major symphony orchestra. my focus will be classical music, since thats the music that speaks to me, and thats the knowledge I expect and want to get. if i remember i will respond to this comment in four years and let you know how it was.

[@Taetro]

from 2010-2014 there were no schools (other than small, private, unaccredited schools) where electronic music was available as a performance major. Even today it is hard to find and Berklee's EPD is one of the only major programs available (with the Berklee pricetag of course) My point here is for folks looking to pursue traditional music education from a non-traditional background or with non-traditional goals. Traditional music education institutions are not evolving along side the modern music culture or industry and the elitism within is a defensive reaction to that lack of evolution. I didn't feel myself the victim of elitism, it exists, in nearly every music school (ask any former or current music major). You on the other hand will do just fine! You're studying cello and you have a private instructor with connections - you are following the exact path these institutions are built for and you will greatly benefit from it. But in your pursuit of a more traditional course of study, don't forget there are other paths, other genres, and other focuses in music that also deserve their place in educational institutions. I didn't go to some specialized school or conservatory, I went to a state university with the staff, facility, and capacity to provide the education I needed to support my musical goals - it was the individuals leading that institution that decided those pursuits were not worthy of the resources or time required.

[@ChadRidings-v9q]

Ol Ronnie Boy was playing the role of gatekeeper to the days of yore.

[@Taetro]

unfortunately I think we're stilling living in the days of yore

[@pesto12601]

You are missing a bigger point I think... if you are going to music school at Joe Smith's public college in Lalaville, CA, then yeah... you might want to think about how this is going to benefit you. If you are GOOD ENOUGH to get into HARVARD, BERKELEE, etc... you'll do JUST FINE after college. Can't compare Berkelee student's to UC Irvine....

[@Taetro]

I know plenty of folks who attended and teach at those schools who would disagree.

[@Taetro]

Oh and I guess we should just accept negligence and other issues because it’s “just” a public university? What a mindless take.

[@CrankyOldNerd]

Your descritpion sounds like college in general, with two kids in just community college the fine print and things that they fee you to death on are hideous, I don't know if its because of the pipeline for the banks to get us under their thumb or what but it's changed a ton since the late 80s when I looked at college.

[@by_antony]

Hey Taetro, thanks for the breakdown. I estimated £9,000 per 3 (or 4) year college degree. I am 53 and did basic music theory in junior high school 1985-1987 (forgive me, I don't recall the exact years) and during the 80s I primarily learned the drums and was inspired by Adam and the Ants, Duran Duran and other new wave / punk groups of the era, but in juniour high school, I learned the rudiments of music theory, chords, and keys. Throughout high school and beyond, I was constantly writing lyrics and composing stuff on my CASIO MT-100 keyboard, which later transformed into the Yamaha MK-100, which got me into teaching myself acoustic gutiar on a 3/4 length guitar based on the songsheets of the music in Live Aid from 1985. My college degree is in English with a minor in International Business, but my music prevails (kzbin.info/door/LCv0sgJrTJBSudOJesGX3g)

[@FeddoWouters-i4e]

Any institution teaching about 'octaves' while actually it's twelve semitones should be closed. Stop calling it an an octave, call it a ''twelvel'! Any institution talking about 'perfect fifths' when it's actually seven semitones should be closed. Any institution using a music notation consisting of five horzontal lines for a twelve semitone music scale should be closed: six horizontal lines is perfect to represent 12 semitones without the need for 'sharp' or 'flat' symbols. Music theory, music naming conventions, and music notation are all outdated. It's just the frustrated lizzards who got and ancient 'music school' education that keep obsolete conventions alive. Their justification: if they themselves had a hard time learning this shit (the wrong way), every new student should have a hard time too...

[@WazzapMate48]

We should learn music

[@Coomberg]

Other than Museum Music (Classical) you should not even bother with Uni/College level degrees - its a load of cobblers and was instigated by American Universities (surprise!) to monetize something. The idea of having a degree in Rock Guitar of Electronic music is laughable, Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Hendrix, Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, The BEATLES for god sake would not have been seen dead in such an environment. As is usual in the USA you are being conned and marketed to.

[@countvlad8845]

There are a lot of these anti-music school videos. Why the current trend? Are people waking up? $30,000 is cheap. $130,000 for a prestigious school. And if Ma and Pa aren't rich, then it's a crushing and debilitating debt for your whole life. People who do go to these prestigious schools brag about rich parents and then are placed in good jobs after they graduate. A music degree is a status symbol for how rich and cultured you are. And yet, these people would spit on a gypsy if he played better than them. So, to get ahead you need a patron. That is a person who is well-connected and has money. Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven had patrons and you need these people today too. Nothing has changed in human nature. There are people who get you into the right circles. And then you run with people in these circles and things come your way.

[@Taetro]

People are making these videos because contrary to your final statement, though human nature doesn’t necessarily change, a lot has changed in culture. I know a lot of people with music degrees - the degree gives them no “status” and can barely get them a job. So let’s start there.

[@countvlad8845]

@@Taetro @Taetro I'm saying a degree in music from a prestigious university or music school, i.e., Juilliard, means something because you, or your mom and dad, have the cash to send you there. It is for rich kids who'll likely also get some job placement because of their family connections. An average music degree is meaningless. With an average degree, you'll be lucky to sell luggage in a department store.

[@Taetro]

so to your initial question - you’re seeing more of these videos because more people are speaking about how music education shouldn’t be this way nor does it need to be.

[@countvlad8845]

@@Taetro Yes, people are disillusioned with strapping debts and little job entry. But it was the same way 40 years ago when I went to college for music production. It's just that people are waking up now. Why particularly now? 40 years ago there was no internet so you couldn't have found out what other people were experiencing. I think to be successful you have to have a patron -- somebody with connections and money. Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven had them and they are just as essential now. Otherwise, music can become a curse if your dreams are not fulfilled. Your airy, fluffy dreams can as easily crush you as your financial debt. Get a patron.

[@Taetro]

This is very obvious and the reason I have KZbin channel memberships and others use Patreon. We’re having a different conversation. It’s ok to just add to the conversation instead of using a weird condescending tone. Especially when you agree with the premise. ✌🏻

[@iothemighty]

This doesn't sound like Music school; this sounds like being a music major at a state university. Isn't there a difference?

[@h5mind373]

I guessed $40K, lol.Even when "free", there are so many costs.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

Ok how is it that high? Like my sister was able to get like 3 medical degrees for the low low price to her of zero between 2012-2024 because of the Florida pre paid program that was $8k to my grandpa in the 1990s... Like do I hate to say it but my dud you got day light robbed.

[@therealzyrix]

Every aspect of this sounds horrible... i have never felt better for not going to college. I've heard a lot of the same stories for visual & graphical arts.

[@johnsuggs7828]

Great legendary musicians that didn't read/write music at all or not very well. 1. Paul McCartney 2. Irving Berlin 3. Eddie Vanhalen 4. John Lennon 5. Stevie Wonder (this one on the list is a little fucked up lol) 6. Hans Zimmer 7. Taylor Swift 8. Jimi Hendrix All of them were or are legendary musicians/composers and they are not the best at reading and writing music Heard that Irving Berlin would partner with or hire someone to write his music for him. He absolutely hated it.

[@Stemma3]

Taylor Swift? What the hell

[@LearnCompositionOnline]

Because they were legendary, and you are probably not.

[@johnsuggs7828]

No. There is nothing that you can learn in a music school that you can't learn on your own with a book/videos and some good old fashion hard work. Just keep at it. *10-thousand* *hour* *rule*

[@robertgramley8383]

I think this means you picked a bad program and didn’t do your research. If you hated the curriculum and culture so much, you shouldn’t have gone. This is a very cynical view and might discourage someone from pursuing a *potentially* worth-while endeavor.

[@Taetro]

I would also discourage somebody from going to the casino and gambling $30,000 even though it could potentially be a worth-while endeavor

[@generallobster]

200k to go to art school to learn how to paint. Same thing.

[@kristieharper4846]

HUNDRED PERCENTO!! Also, same crap in the Art world for the Art majors.

[@JelMain]

Academia's not elite! Prof Craig Wright (formerly Yale History of Music, now Head of Yale Genius School) holds Those who can, do: Those who can't teach (The Hidden Habits of Genius).

[@Taetro]

I think this is a super toxic mentality that is really disrespectful to great teachers who are also great “do-ers” The reality is there are lots of teachers that can’t do or teach. None of it is acceptable.

[@JelMain]

@@Taetro Yes, but how many are there? I've recently caught up under Max La Villa, but essentially, all they can do is encourage you to explore within. The toxic side comes from Industry Administrators who don't have a creative bone in their bodies, parasitising the creators. I was a Stagecraft mentor at London Southbank until that car crash, in passing.

[@Taetro]

Now that you no longer need to work at a higher institution to gather students, there are many high quality practitioners that have chosen to pass on their skills. Hence the reason for this conversation.

[@ConorHanley]

Why would you go to collage to learn how to be a singer songwriter? Seems like a really dumb idea, learn how to play guitar in your bedroom , write songs and if your any good great. Going to collage won't make you any better and you've just wasted a ton of money and a few years.

[@Taetro]

collage x2

[@sidpeacock]

Good video, there's a lot of erhu virtuoso though. China's population is 1.42 billion! You think they're not creating great erhu players ffs!

[@johnsuggs7828]

Berklee Online can suck it. *$4,335* to learn Ableton Live

[@johnsuggs7828]

@dgodrummer8110 Damn lol. I'm sure it's a great program....kinda. Just a tough sell for me when I see things like *$13,605* to learn the music business *$4,635* to learn Lyric Writing *$4,335* to learn Ableton live *$4,635* to learn drums I'm sorry but, hell nah

[@PASHINNSOUNDS]

bros beefing with a college music department 😭🙏

[@Taetro]

it's crazy that real criticism of arts education and public higher ed can be reduced to "beefing" some things are a little more serious, not everything needs to be contextualized into tiktok tea and twitch brain rot.

[@PASHINNSOUNDS]

@@Taetro I was just trying to make a joke I know it’s more serious than that. Sorry if I offended you.

[@Taetro]

you didn't offend me, but if we treat everything like a joke things will never change

[@LevelUpWithMatthew]

40,000

[@Taetro]

Close !

[@manuelgonzales6483]

🥇🏆

[@iamsimonmorris]

Ronnie, shame shame shame.

[@thelevicole]

Ronny sucks

[@VanillaSoul]

Yeah, I’m gonna have to disagree still on the music school thing. I have terrible experiences with SCHOOL, but not because it was music school. Great insights here, I recommend getting a degree for every human being on this earth. Just plan out your path before starting, and REALLY be ready for shitty teachers, shitty financial aid, and shitty classmates. But the life experience, it’s unlikely you’ll get it anywhere else. There is SO many connections in college.

[@VanillaSoul]

For clarification, I finished my AA at Shoreline CC and transferred to Berklee for BA

[@Taetro]

"not because it was music school" - cites "shitty teachers, shitty financial aid, and shitty classmates" Plenty of places to get life experience outside the higher ed system. At what point to we put the responsibility on the institution rather than the 18 y/o freshmen to "plan out their path" ??

[@painter08]

very informative..i was thinking the tuition to be around 50k..

[@NefertitiGold]

Ronnie has 24 hours to respond.

[@iamvancore]

Honestly this video partially read like a massive middle finger to Ronnie, and I'm totally here for it

[@Taetro]

😂😂😂😂 Ronnie has left the chat.

[@Taetro]

my new band name: Middle Finger To Ronnie