Tainted Grail Review - An "Epic" Disappointment

#boardgames #review
#taintedgrail
Music by:
Juanitos
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[@HelloFutureMe]

Really enjoyed this review. I've been contracted to write for Oathsworn: Into the Deepwood, and hearing your criticisms of the writing/character/gameplay integration was really interesting. Hoping to make it work for Oathsworn.

[@itswhatreallymatters]

Wow, this comment aged wonderfully actually!

[@somefishhere]

Hello Future You, you did a good job

[@mihneacateanu3808]

Sometimes I feel like you're one of the very few reviewers that stress-test these games, instead of mucking about for a few hours and rushing the video out asap. So thanks for that.

[@daodasbrot4817]

Not if you know German. Die Nische (Cooperative Boardgame Reviewer) kzbin.info/www/bejne/eaGrnWqVgsmrkNk

[@jonfaniskousouris9653]

@@daodasbrot4817 Still very few :P

[@nerdybox]

@@daodasbrot4817 Von Stress-Test kann in dem verlinkten Video aber keine Rede sein. ^^

[@daodasbrot4817]

@@nerdybox Ne, aber dafür ein Wissenschaftliches Review mit echten Argumenten. Und er behält Recht, außer man ist ein Fan Boy des Spiels :-)

[@nerdybox]

@@daodasbrot4817 Ich bin jetzt kein Fanboy und kann durchaus nachvollziehen wenn man das Spiel nicht mag. Scheint dir ja auch so zu gehen. Ob er Recht hat... liegt vielleicht im Auge des Betrachters. Trotzdem ist es unprofessionell. Ich kann nicht nur die ersten 15 Minuten von Herr der Ringe schauen und mir dann eine fundierte Meinung einbilden. Das meine ich und damit ist es um Welten entfernt von NPI oder einem Stress-Test.

[@JoshDuffus]

I love and adore your reviews on many, many levels. That said, I'm nine chapters into Tainted Grail with my son and we're having one of the best board game experiences in our lives. While it's not without it's shortcomings, it's been an incredible experience. This is one of those rare times I just agree-to-disagree with NPI. It's been a great experience so far and I'm stoked for the next wave.

[@ChaosCanon]

I am playing with my wife and we are having a great time as well. I agree with most all of the points made in the video, however, I am still having fun and to me that is the ultimate measure. I appreciate that the point of the video is to logically point out what NPI feels the flaws are to inform buying decisions. Can't ask for more than that. Enjoy the game Josh and keep up the great work NPI.

[@datalink7]

I'm the same. Game of 2019 for me.

[@DarthNVious]

I theorize the primary culprit would be board game fatigue.

[@nicolasdelattre8833]

@Josh Duffus How old is your son? I'm thinking about playing the campaign with mine...

[@JoshDuffus]

@@nicolasdelattre8833 11

[@jamesjacobthomson6198]

I realize that the gamification of deep narratives is basically still in its infancy and I applaud Awaken Realms for their well-produced contributions to this niche. But it seems like NPI make some compelling observations that could further raise the quality of story-telling board games. Without reviewers like NPI, board game standards could just stagnate.

[@NoPunIncluded]

Thank you! A lofty goal but it's exactly the reason why we chose to make this video. Glad to hear it resonates.

[@foamheart]

This is why people still play RPGs. No game mechanic beats a good game master.

[@pst5345]

tedious mechanics which are inflating playtime are not just an infancy issue of boardgame campaigns. They are, in fact, pretty common in video games: fetch quests survival and ingredient hunt grind for marginal progress The first question I need to ask myself when creating a game (aka: an agreed upon ruleset for a limited set of actions to reach a defined goal) is "What is my theme?" Brutal? Tragic? Action? Comedy? Suspense? Survival? Tedious time sinks within survival themes mostly distract from the "handrcrafted quests". What is supposed to create fun? The rabbit hunt relying on dice variance preventing you further to progress the awesomly written story? Or exploring the story and the consequences of your actions in a grim world where consequence means a life changing event for involved parties?

[@seansmith2650]

The worst rulebook?! Etherfields: Hold my beer

[@ileopsoas88]

The great wall: hold my pint!

[@Bandit-137]

My gf & I are almost at the end of the core campaign and love it. I do agree it has it’s flaws but despite them we are having a lot of fun. Definitely a 1-2 player game imho. Really excited for the expansions and the monster minis are great for painters. Keep up the honest reviews👍

[@niro750]

Myself and my gf are going to start soon. We want to have fun and are not huge gamers (due to time constraints with 2 kids) but we do have a fair collection of games in the stash. Have you been playing core rules or story mode?

[@Bandit-137]

Dougie Todd We did core rules and in chapter 7 added the advanced resource rule of a cap of 20 because we felt we needed more of a challenge. The rules are great in the sense you can tailor them and adjust as you see fit. The goal is to have fun but feel like you are being challenged. I highly recommend going to AR’s website and reading the updated rule book and the updated faq before you play. Lastly, remember to take good notes, refer to the map, have each player excel at different things, stay in a party as often as possible and don’t be afraid to run from encounters!

[@niro750]

@@Bandit-137 that's great info, thanks. I will get the latest FAQ and such before we play. Cheers

[@BarberossaThePirate]

Game is great. Took me I bit to understand, get the hang of the combat/diplomacy system. The story telling is engaging, felt invested as to what was happening to the characters. However, I also understand his points in which the pacing of the game is done. During certain chapters going back to find certain monster for resources in order to complete tasks. Different strokes for different folks.

[@tigerpjm]

People play Korean MMOs too. Tainted Grail is the Korean MMO of board games.

[@griffglowen5555]

It’s good to read a negative review just because I couldn’t afford the game!

[@tombiby5892]

Agreed! We're winning at the game of life against the evil Kickstarter...this battle at least.

[@thechosenvoice3472]

Although I usually agree with your reviews, I have to say we loved this game very much! Such fun to play!!!

[@piotrjasik2835]

I beat the solo campaign this month, and I played on story mode, which substracts a lot of farming for time on menhirs. Game didn't punish me as much for exploring and I was really envolved in the story. I also played it with 3 friends, and it takes wayy to much time. I really recommend playing this solo on story mode! The combat is exciting, and I love BoS mechanic. I also didn't have any problem with the dials. My only criticism is that the combat at the game is too easy, when you've fully established your character/combo. I kinda liked the fact that when I was dying, I started over having more information about the world. It reminded me of playing Witcher 3 - in the beginning I died a lot. But when I got grasp of the game, it really paid off :D I really like the sense of proggresion (discluding the last 2 chapters). Overall, I recommend this game to players looking for solitaire experience with interesting world to roam around :P

[@niro750]

I think I'll be playing in story mode. Too many games to play, too many minis to paint and too little time. I want to enjoy it so we will see how it goes but at least as I'm all in I can sell it if I don't like it and get probably all the money back.

[@Anthony-bf9qd]

Where are the rules on story mode?

[@fy8798]

@@Anthony-bf9qd page 22 of the manual. Simply scale all costs and events as if one less player was at the table. Ie, if you play with two players, Story mode makes you pay half as much for Menhirs.

[@xarmanhskafragos2516]

We are at chapter 4 and till now this game is a masterpiece. I am a dungeon master for 8 years so the rules for me were extremely simple.

[@aditmaryadi6678]

Love your reviews! Nice background music, editing and how you talk while involving those minis and the game itself on the table instead of talking and staring in front of camera entire video.

[@claptrap22]

I think Tainted Grail and those like it are for who they're for. That's not a knock against the review. It's very intelligently put together and reasonably stated. But with these sorts of games, some of the features pointed out as cumbersome will turn out to be a dream come true for some gamers. I think the main problem is that the game is really probably not for the majority of people who actually backed this, thus the meta-criticism of KS campaigns that raise immense amounts of money based not so much on the game but on the product.

[@kennygoodenow6505]

I think that I agree with everything you said, especially the metaphor of diving into a shallow pool. After about 12 hours of play; mostly repeating the travel-hunt-sleep cycle to try and get my character's attributes to where they needed to be, I boxed it up for a while. I *do* like the combat and diplomacy systems. Fortunately, I played solo, so I didn't have to sit idle during others' turns, which I imagine would be unbearable. Well-informed and supported review, as always.

[@mahna_mahna]

I've played 7th Continent quite a bit, and I've never had a moment where choosing left or right ended in me "suddenly dying". I've never had a "sudden" death at all, only ones where I've been slowly shambling towards the grave. Many of those shambles have been turned around, though, by finding a hunting spot or just the right lucky item to help me out of a jam. Just wanted to put that out there for people who might see that bit and think T7C is as arbitrary as they made it out to be. Love NPI and this review is otherwise fantastic. I am very interested in TG, and I'll need to keep thinking about it (and watching a spread of reviews) to make up my mind.

[@LeeKenshin7]

I agree. Wife and I are about to wrap up T7C, including the WGUMCD expansion, and never had a "sudden" death moment. I can see how that can happen in our current and final curse but the game has warned us about it and how to avoid them with proper preparations. Looking forward to starting our TG campaign immediately afterwards. Hopefully it will carry us through until the 7th Citadel is released.

[@Nickmc1980]

Love you guys. Don't actually agree with much of what you've said in this one but that's fine. You've gone into your reasoning in detail and there are more than enough reviews out there that give the positive outlook. I did find the "I can understand why people would *want* to like this game" comment a bit patronising though. I did want to like it and then... I did like it. I'm harsh on games I think are bad, even if I paid a lot for them and many others are the same. Are the BGG reviews inflated? Of course. But that's true for all kickstarters. For me there's much more to like about TG than to dislike. There were always going to be difficulties in cohesion for a game this sprawling but I think it does a very good job overall. In any case, keep doing what you're doing. We need reviewers who are prepared to not toe the party line when that's their honest opinion. Cheers!

[@Demoncleanerrr]

I absolutely loved this game, beat it twice my only complaint honestly might be the replay value, we played a different ending and it wasn't really all that different minus a few legacy moves, outstanding experience for me though through and through.

[@a1investigations433]

Loved 7th Continent. Think I'll love this so thanks for the insight by reverse opinion.

[@dadboddrumming4261]

BGG reviews of expensive kickstarter games are next to useless. Patrons unwilling to deal with the cognitive dissonance produced by making such a monetary investment and then finding out your choice was terrible is the core of why things like this, 7th continent, and others retain such high scores. This coupled with the fact that after people rate things, there is a next-to-zero chance of going back and changing the score when it warrants it, are the reasons so many pretty "meh" games are erroneously rated so high. People play it once, all hyped by their new toy, ignore the obvious glaring issues, or brush them off as "we'll get it right next time, it must be us doing something wrong." then race to BGG to show off their fancy game with a great score. I'm not attacking any ONE person, site, or game here. Articulating a problem inherent with our hobby, is all.

[@videjoe]

I mean a lot of 10 ratings hit the site months before people actually play the game.

[@Feralway]

here come another hipster detesting everything others liek because YES

[@VaultBoy13]

@Caruso Nicholas - It's a problem inherent in any user aggregated rating system. It's selection bias not cognitive dissonance. The average gamer buys the games that they're interested in. This results in gamer being much more likely to enjoy and highly rate the game they purchased. If every user was playing every game, then you'd see a truer representation of average ratings and rankings. But, because gamers are mostly playing the games they think they'll enjoy, almost every game rating on BGG is inflated. In fact, the system tries to factor this problem in with the Geek Rating until larger sample sizes bring games closer to the average rating. Last, cognitive dissonance applies to more than money. The "shelf of opportunity" is an indicator that a gamer has more money than they have time. I've yet to see a cognitive dissonance ratings argument in regards to heavier games. There is a trend and data points for heavier games being more highly rated on BGG. Obviously, there'd need to be some actual science put in to determine if the rating correlates to cognitive dissonance, but at least the data points are a better baseline than the cherry-picking that occurs when complaining about the ratings of Kickstarter games.

[@frederiekewesterveld3907]

Uhm... I've sold a few games that were obvious fails for me in rectospect, although none of them were kickstarters. However, the kickstarters I backed, I backed because I knew they would appeal to me, not because of the bling - I steer away from those kickstarters - but because of the gameplay. Both the 7th Continent and Tainted Grail are among my most played and favorite games and I know quite a few people who feel the same. Please don't lump everyone together.

[@B0rghalRantipole]

Does this game even qualify as expensive anymore? It was only €80 (+shipping), which I think is quite a normal price for a slightly bigger game these days.

[@Magraathea]

There are good points in this review. I also get the feeling that you didn't want to be playing this game in the first place.

[@Shot007]

Dont let single reviewers determine if you like a game. One aggregate: this one is generally well-loved by most reviewers. I'd recommend looking at other reviews (Tom Vasel or BrokenMeeple for example) before making a choice.

[@Ruben_BE_]

I mean, he sorta made that point in the video... but yeah I definitely agree

[@stephendavis7327]

Fair point, but some reviewers are benefitting from AR promos, which may or may not introduce bias. I will keep saying this, but for almost any KS game, subtract 2 from the BGG rating for a more accurate one. TG is much more a 7/10 than 9. If you are into the theme, difficulty, or house rules, no doubt you will enjoy it.

[@jastat]

This channel deserves more followers

[@Tennethums1]

The gaming industry has honed in on the desire of many collectors...er...I mean...”gamers”. That’s to say, the oodles of people who seem to collect games more than they play them. In fact, the entire hobby has become about the “get” rather than the “have”. They invest blindly hundreds of dollars on something they have NO IDEA if it’s any good or not. BUT! It sure does have a lot of plastic! Gameplay? Who cares! They’ll NEVER get it to the table! I admit, only recently have I learned that lesson myself and after purging my game collection...er...hobby...down to those games I’ve PLAYED and ENJOY and WANT TO PLAY AGAIN I’ve also stopped buying new games. Best decision I ever made. It’s hard to describe to others who are still caught up in the grip of buying the latest “shiney” but I hope everyone sees the light 😜

[@MoragTong_]

Couldn't agree more. Lots of these games are immediately sold on the second hand market anyway. I was super close to backing Nemesis, but waited until retail and only bought a copy after REAL reviews and opinions were available. What's funny is games like Jaws, Horrified, O.P. Arena are fun, easy to teach and have plenty of replay-ability yet they only cost $30.00. I love my copy of Big Trouble in Little China...but I play Artic Scavengers: Recon way more often.

[@joeheey6930]

I decided I bought my last game. Thanks to the internet, I have like 100 missions. Tough decision going cold turkey. (Lustily staring at Nemesis, hmmm...)

[@Tennethums1]

S L Funny you should mention Nemesis as the one and only Kickstarter game I’ve ever backed was Lords of Hellas (Another Awaken Realms game as I’m sure you know). LoH probably cost me about $250 in the end (I went “all in”) and while the game turned out to be pretty fun (thankfully!) I have yet to even unbox the mountains of expansions/Addons that came with it a year later. Turns out, it’s just too much. I can say with absolute certainty that I will never back another Kickstarter board game. This last week a few of us from work got together and played Lords of Waterdeep (An “oldie” that we still love to play) and had a blast! My gf and I play Space Base more than I’d like to admit. I still love to whip out Race for the Galaxy or we’ll duke it out in Kemet. My point being, we have PLENTY of games to play! While I got rid of many, I still have three shelves full (smaller “ladder” shelves from Lowes...I never did the IKEA thing). Hell, just recently we finally played Castles of Burgundy - a game I had gotten for practically nothing and that sat on my shelf for two years! It’s an incredible game! I finally realized that the purchase of board games could really go on forever. I think last year the number was right around 3000 for new board games on Kickstarter? I see pictures of people now with whole rooms full of games and to be honest, I feel sorry for them. I used to be that guy. Funny, I feel like I’m talking about drug addiction, lol! One night, several friends came over for a game. One of them piped up, “Can we just play something we already know? I don’t feel like learning anything new right now.” Another agreed and said, “I found Scythe intriguiging but we’ve only played it once and I don’t feel like I had a chance to really understand and enjoy it.” That’s when I knew I’d gone too far. Hell, I could literally play Terraforming Mars many many more times (we love that game) and that doesn’t speak to the fact I had countless unplayed (or rarely played) games aligning my wall. Anyway, just rambling. Stopping my collection addiction and getting back to brass tacks - actually playing a manageable number of games we enjoy over and over - is where it’s at. It’s where my love of the hobby started and I’m happy to be back there again!

[@Tennethums1]

Joe heey My new rule is that I have to have played a game to justify purchasing it and unless the game is unique (very unlikely these days) then I have to get rid of a game to make room for the new one. For example, I do still have Wingspan on my radar. I’m not in any rush to buy it and if I find it somewhere cheap Ill probably pick it up. We recently played it at a board game meetup and turns out - it is pretty damn fun. It didn’t blow us out of the water but it’s one the gf and I could play often. Anyway, if you stick with the rule that you cant buy a game unless you’ve tried it, you’ll do well, ha!

[@joeheey6930]

@@Tennethums1 try it before you buy it!?!??! How am I gonna get all those sweet, sweet extras before anyone else? Get rid of a game!?!? I, sadly, have come to the realization that Im just going to have to stop. Ill just go to the game shop and play there. Good advice

[@captainthrawn1]

First time ive agreed to disagree with NPI. Not that the game doesnt have issues or their thoughts are wrong but ive got a group of 4 that are having a blast.

[@jerimiahlee3451]

I can see why this game would not be fun for a few people. It is a resource management game, it has a timer, if you don't like managing resource on a timer, you are not going to like this. I own The 7th Continent and I've played it a few times. I don't enjoy it as a game. I don't feel like I have the tools available to me to progress in the game. That game is designed so that you fail and then the next time you play you remember what not to do. Tainted Grail provides tools to mitigate some failures so that you can continue playing. But sometimes the RNG can really put you in a bad position. But you still have choices to pull yourself back up. I don't feel that this game would be as enjoyable if you didn't have to bother much with relighting the Menhirs. They keep you moving. The Menhirs provide a sense of urgency that is necessary in survival games. You're not supposed to camp on a tile and explore everything. In fact the statuses won't allow you to do that. Many story options are locked behind statuses, either ones you are missing or ones that you've taken in other story paths. There is not one story in this game, there are various ones, the replayability is massive. In the early areas of the game, yes the Menhir are fairly expensive to light. We've made it to Chapter four and are in the middle of the island and there are Menhir that are much cheaper to keep lit. If you don't like the game, you don't like the game, but give it a fair assessment. You may not like the mechanics, but the mechanics are important for the game to be properly balanced for what it claims to be.

[@denisloebner4882]

I think NPI are in general not too invested in exploration games. 7th continent which is the closest comparison didnt bode too well with them either.

[@matthiassk]

Do you still feel the same? We were loving it then got to chapter 7 and as a group we had to have a chat about what house rules we'd bring in so that we keep playing because we were bored. He has given a fair review, the survival elements that make the game tense at the start become a slog. They don't provide challenge after so long just busy work and once youve seen all (most? - dunno if I've actually seen all) Of the main map the sense of discovery vanishes and the menhir mechanic just makes travel frustrating.

[@jerimiahlee3451]

@@matthiassk my group got to Chapter 6 before the pandemic, then I moved away so I haven't had a chance to play more. I've heard that a lot of players have a hard time with Chapter 7.

[@matthiassk]

@@jerimiahlee3451 yeah pandemic interrupted ours too and we were mid chapter 7 so took some cajoling to pick it back up.

[@breakingrowesbud]

I spent a lifetime studying Arthurian legends. I spent a lifetime playing board games. Tainted Grail thrills me as complimenting both of these passions with fun and challenge. If I may be so bold *SPOILERS* I believe the menhir system was intentionally introduced to Motivate players to engage with the environment instead of running through and missing so many opportunities for interaction. This is why it is removed halfway through the first game. Once players understand the value in environment engagement, the designers remove menhirs

[@Barl3000]

I really enjoyed the writing, but about halfway through the campaign we had pretty much explored every location fully and the game bogged down in pointless trudging back and forth across the map on a seemingly endless fetchquest. I don't regret playing it, but I will never touch it (or its two expansion campaigns) again.

[@Merlandese]

The quality of recording and cinematography and all that is really improving and it shows.

[@NoPunIncluded]

That's all Elaine.

[@niederman]

So since you didn't like 7th Continent and you didn't like this, does that mean if I DID like 7th Continent, I WILL like this?

[@NoPunIncluded]

Honestly? Most likely, yeah.

[@TeChNoWC7]

Bummer. 7th Continent was a bit of a missed opportunity for me and I was hoping this would improve on what was a great idea but not so great execution. Sad face.

[@ratguy69]

I'm a bit late, but have just recently tried Tainted Grail. I was expecting not to like 7th Continent, but ended up enjoying it a lot. But as for Tainted Grail, I agree with everything Efka said about it. I found the central gameplay very frustrating, and ended up just giving up halfway through the second chapter. I really wanted to enjoy this one, and was quite disappointed by it.

[@pontusolin8771]

Tainted Grail is one of the best narrative games I've ever played, and I've played a lot of them. The narrative and stories are meticulously crafted and well-written, and the decisions have interesting, far-reaching consequences. Couldn't disagree more with this review.

[@scottyboy6269]

This guy hasnt played many games, KDM, Gloomhaven, Sword and Sorcery Series all better.

[@thegamesninja3119]

Cool! I will await the movie adaptation! 🥷

[@Apeshower]

It’s funny how over my board game time I have gone from the miniatures games to the more strategy based games and not necessarily worrying too much about how beautiful it looks. Food chain magnate and Gaia project being the last two purchases I made (last couple of months). That said good components are always a bonus but big plastic bits are less of a thing now. This does look nice and would have once grabbed me but a box full of descent means I will probably pass having been there before…..just as a further bit-- if you want dark dark and tongue in check, Mork Borg RPG. Simple rule set- made as cheese and fun.

[@MagicComPT]

Completely disagree with this review also. Going to chapter 7 at the moment and it's been a blast playing through the campaign. To clarify, I'm not a big fan of mini's boardgames and prefer classic euros. The story and combat system is one of the things that drew me to this game since throwing dice doesn't really appeal to me, and it's just fantastic. On the beginning it can take more time but as you get more used to it it goes faster. Plus it should be a team effort and analysis. The food and menhirs are just one thing to keep track of the time you have to the quests and it's just something that you can quickly address. There are lots of locations that give food and it takes one day to get a good enough supply of food for the rest of the chapter (+/- depending on the chapter), it's part of the tactical decision of where to go and what to do. It's expected to die frequently and use the knowledge gained to do better on the next time. It happens with literally every game. You'll get better at it the more you play. Just save every chapter and you can resume the chapter if it didn't go well. I'm currently playing this solo and it's my favorite solo game at the moment, and also playing it coop with 2 friends. They both love it. That said, not every game is for everyone, some people prefer to toss dices and not think much about combat, other people love complex games that are hard to make the best decision. Even most euro gamers don't like Vital Lacerda's games and prefer lighter euro's and that's just fine. Now just don't disregard other people tastes by saying they only rated the game High because they invested a lot of money into it.

[@Conny-tk8md]

I agree with some of your points, especially the tedious task of keeping the characters fed and the menhirs lit. To me, it added a feeling of realism to the game, but it got so tiresome after a while that our three person playgroup introduced a few house rules to reduce the grind and speed up combat/diplomacy encounters. Even after those tweaks, it took us about 80 hours to get through the book once - and we only achieved about half of the accomplishments on the character sheets. Given how much money 80 hours at the movies would have cost us, I consider this game an excellent investment. :)

[@basketballbene]

Can not agree at all. This game offers a dripping, very rich solo experience!

[@simong4252]

Same, I didn't go all out for the minis so there is only a few in a very generous basic pledge. I'm not normally an artwork nut, but every card is beautiful and feels like being 10 years old again with a chose your own adventure

[@smcshaw]

Same here. Absolutely loving the solo experience. Probably my favourite 'big game'. Sold 7th Continent after playing the first few chapters and stoked for the kickstarter extra chapters.

[@primalcerebrate4398]

Thank you very much for another well researched review! I'm glad you're one of the few reviewers showing that every single board game has its downsides, its objective flaws and also subjective problems. That said, if these things don't bother one personally and don't throw one out of the intended experience, there's nothing against getting the game. Cannot wait for the next video!

[@sebastiang.5032]

While I don't share your opinion about the game (my wife and I do enjoy it a lot and we're half way through the campaign now), I have to applaud to your sincereness about your feelings towards this product. I was very disappointed with TV's review and even while he liked it and you didn't, your review sang more with me than his. Keep up the great work.

[@NoPunIncluded]

I think Tom does really great work! I'm sorry that his video didn't gel with you but I'm very glad ours did.

[@sebastiang.5032]

@@NoPunIncluded I feel the whole DT swayed away from honest boardgame reviews to becoming more of a convention machine in the last years. But that's another story...

[@seanoconnor2865]

I saw it coming, but still lol, "Imagine what it's like in a dark re-imagining of England, which these days is just England."

[@diegogarciacampos4849]

The industry needs desperately more reviews like this. Thanks for sharing your honest opinion.

[@jhowd78]

There were a couple things I agree with in here. What I love about NPI is there entertaining and detail perspective on games overall. I did not share the same opinion at all on the vast majority of their points, but definitely great content. Have a good one, keep making awesome reviews.

[@frederiekewesterveld3907]

What can I say... I really like survival game and open-world exploration. Both this game and the 7th continent are among my favorite games (I'm mostly playing them solo). It's the resource management and the thinking ahead to make sure you're prepared for whatever danger lies ahead that appeals to me. The dice rolls are a flaw in my opinion, yes and the rulebook isn't very well layed out, but it's... manageable. I do see how in a multiplayer game the combat and diplomacy puzzles can create massive downtime. However, when when playing a three-player game of Tainted Grail, we circumvented this by figuring out the puzzle together. This wasn't something we house-ruled: It happened naturally, perhaps because we are all roleplayers. And of course, when playing solo, downtime isn't an issue at all.

[@denisloebner4882]

Same for me, havent played this one yet but i loved 7th continent for its abundant creativity and exploration and this one seems to be even richer. if the menhir/food upkeep becomes too tedious id just switch to story mode. regarding the fights, i think thats the reason why most recommend 2 players; you probably dont need 4 players to brood over every battle but more than 1 is already more enjoyable.

[@lootnscoot50]

Watching the evolution of this channel and your presentation chops is always a joy. Keep having the courage to present your opinions and experiences even if it runs counter to what the majority thinks. I value your channels viewpoint and candor, as well as its sense of humor. Thanks for all your hard work!

[@Filip_eF]

Got you buddy. At the same time this is what we've done with my wife to balance the coop game 1) lighting the menhirs doubles only the last needed resource, not all of them 2) moving through wyrdness/rejected locations which where discovered before - cost 2 hearts and give you 3 fear (per day)that is allowing you to go quicker through map when you need to go back to places you were before. Also all the attacks from monsters are more deadly - +1 dmg or +1 removing of a red cube. Exploring is harder (requirements for certain effects goes up by 1). Of course until you'll light the menhir everything goes back to "normal" 3) story mode: removing "T" limiter, days on menhir count as a 1 player not 2(more time) That's it. Still you need to be carefull, but you have more resources and you can go through story quicker not thinking about grind. For us it's just working.

[@50u0p3dr0]

Once Again great video. I bought Tainted grail and don't regret a thing. But i agree with you in many points. After finishing the game solo, with one character (Beor), i felt at one point the game is a rush to the end. Specifically from a chapter, where you discover a very and important secret location (no spoilers), the game starts to rush, you must go to the top of the map, to suddenly return to a location in the bottom to go back up again. The combat is not my favourite, but it's different. The book, totally agree with you, the spoilers are there it's inevitable, although e liked the "Fighting Fantasy" books model (that i read in my youth) written by Ian Livingstone and illustrated by Iain McCaig, where you jump from page to page. Thank you again for the review, and in the end of the video ....... that's why i don't grow beard.

[@MrJakabar13]

The best thing in this video is your hat that matches couch pillows in shape and colour.

[@hoapham7389]

I like your game reviews. You're not just talking to camera for whole 26 minutes which would look very boring, and there are small bits of video cuts of the game. subscribed

[@rodders91166]

Gotta. Beg to differ sir, but honest in your opinion, the wife and I are seriously devoting time to this and love it, you have a nice day....

[@jacobthomas6876]

Hey Efka & Elaine! Just wanted to say that while I disagree with some of your conclusions, I still thoroughly enjoyed the video as always and look forward to more! Also hope you two are enjoying your new home, happy for you!

[@Jesentra]

Absolutely fantastic review. I can absolutely see and agree with your criticism! My wife and I are enjoying our copy of it, where we have not really enjoyed Gloomhaven that much, but that doesn't mean I disagree with your perceptions on any level; it's just a difference of tolerance. Like you said, this game really is its own thing, and I have to applaud that it made the attempt, and can only hope it will work your valid criticisms into future campaigns, and maybe even the stretch goals

[@vilimbermanec1135]

I get why you would not like the game but this game is so much better then you represented it. I say this because a big reason I delayed playing the game, until recently, was your review. I often don't completely agree with your (re)views, but I always find them entertaining and interesting. But this review was just misleading. It's like we played different games. Criticism of combat, storytelling, and "shallow waters" worldbuilding are just ridiculous. I'm literally gamer that enjoy and own all of your suggesting at the end of the video - Gloomhaven one of the favorite games, own and enjoy both Course of Strahd and Legacy of Dragonholt. This confused me even more, as both of those are weaker in narrative, theme and story than Tainted Grail is. Course of Strahd is literally the most thematic D&D module and it would still play second fiddle to Tainted Grail, in my opinion. Oh well, here is to further reviews, and hopefully being more open-mainded and accommodating to future projects that are outside of your comfort zone.

[@chancebaker6042]

I disagree 1000% personally love it

[@brandbryson3616]

I come here for honest takes on the FOMO generation. Appreciate you!

[@rajarasaful]

Yeah, the amount of salty sunk-cost defenders around here is noticeable~

[@Johann_Gambolputty_of_Ulm]

@@rajarasaful It is kinda unfair, assuming that this game can't be simply enjoyable to some people. You know, they can also play silly stereotypes and tell "ah, you're salty because you missed the KS". Tastes are as different as people on this planet ^^ Oh, and FYI, I do not own the copy; ain't really a fan either, as in general I prefer my adventures on an RPG session instead of boardgames.

[@MichaelMcDonald714]

@@rajarasaful Or some people just genuinely enjoy the game. WHAT A SHOCKER!

[@rajarasaful]

@@MichaelMcDonald714 lol - That's exactly the tone I'm talking about :D

[@livingstorytelling]

Or maybe don't mind the money spend on it and there isn't the need to defend it? :D How poor that there are such cliches. Would be the same if saying the critisism comes from people who don't have the money to spend, don't nearly enjoy games like these and so on. Doesn't add up the same way

[@FullMetal625]

Didn't you guys love Gloomhaven to death? That's a game from kickstarter that has a huge play time and is essentially just a bunch of missions of "kill all the dudes in this corridor."

[@captainron7120]

You haven’t played Gloomhaven. Give it a try and you will understand the difference and the accolades

[@FullMetal625]

@@captainron7120 I have played it and I honestly don't get why it gets such high praise. Obviously if people enjoy it then fair play to them. Just not for me.

[@captainron7120]

@@FullMetal625 oh it’s the card play, hand management that makes it a gem for me. Sorry it didn’t ring for you

[@FullMetal625]

@@captainron7120 oh no worries friend. I just prefer something like Decent where there are alternative scenarios. I found in Gloomhaven, and maybe I just had bad luck, that all the scenarios were just kill all the dudes which I found repetitive very quickly. Vs Decent or something along those lines where it can be kill all the dudes or escape the dungeon or hold off the enemies or chase a monster through a dungeon. To be fair the hand stuff in Gloomhaven is great but I feel like for me personally the story and scenarios let me down is all

[@damonbrearley3202]

@@FullMetal625 you arent alone. the story and scenario win conditions were shit and monotonous respectively. brought the whole game down.

[@kushkoligaf]

I get that everyone has their own taste but DAYUUM! Tainted Grail is very flawed but judging from this review one might think Awakened Realms dropped the game box on your puppy or something. To each his own i guess...but DAYUUM!

[@livingstorytelling]

Yeah it seems a tad too subjective and with the need to ridicule it more than necessary, even if of course criticism is warranted. With this approach I'd say that every game sucks and isn't worth it 😅

[@k.mustafa5455]

Yes, seemed aggressively negative. Having played many hours of this game, I couldn’t disagree more with his major criticisms. Good points were made, but the extent to which they bothered him seemed severe. To each their own, but don’t just take his word for it

[@mikewest235]

Great review. As I watched other reviewers I thought I was missing something. This review is exactly my thoughts on the game. My wife and I are about 8 hours in and all we do is grind for food so we can turn on a menhir so we can grind for food and on and on... I was considering upping the Menhir values to 16 when you light them to try and mitigate this. Once again a great review.

[@dkartzinel]

This times a million. I've been so bummed about this - it checked all the boxes - Arthurian mythos, story based...except the gameplay killed any story since it became all about food and menhirs, no time to explore or help. It starts out super fun - until you hit those gnarly roadblocks.

[@eliashartmark1522]

Interesting how reviewers can have so different opinions on this game. Tom Vasel for example made this his game of the year of 2019.

[@ceproichi]

except Tom Vasel admitted in his review, that he doesn't actually play the game as it was designed. That's not what I would call a review.

[@eliashartmark1522]

Christian Probst true, but it is not much more different than playing story mode.

[@Ultr4l0f]

@@ceproichi thats how I usualy play Choose your own adventure books tho.or for that matter a videogame. I mean I COULD replay The entire book because I messed up and died... Or I can just kinda give myself a rating. Like a high score. "Hey, I only died once! That went well." vs "Holy shit. I had to cheat/respawn ALOT this time" And videogames? I never play those on "Die once and its game over for ever" settings.

[@stephendavis7327]

I do find it interesting that some of these flaws were also talked about in the DT review, but then dismissed as inconsequential, when they are in fact consequential for some. A point of opinion, perhaps, or other factors..

[@joshuakahn8449]

Got Deja Vu when Efka says "that's enough logs for me mum, I'm going to bed" and I'm like "did I already watch this review?"

[@deiseach02]

I loved the performing dog. The Jack Russell was good too.

[@martiniden8282]

He's wearing a woolen cap. He's not even the only blogger doing that. Is there any reason to wear cap at home? Especially for youtube video? Is this kinda fashion or something like that? I just dont get it, could anybody explain?

[@tonybowers9490]

Thanks for being honest. I think a lot of reviewers don't share their opinion if they don't like a game. It is refreshing to see that you aren't like that. Fortunately, I didn't back the game. I didn't see justification for the menyor (sp) minis and didn't understand the appeal of the combat system. And, I must admit... I too didn't care for 7th Continent, although many gamers like it a lot.

[@robertpapancsev8891]

I like the game in overall, but feel the same that my "progress is washed away" all the time, bit hard to play it trough and hard to keep up with the rules. This game requires a lot of free time to go trough it, something that I dont have, so if I die and need to start over....will be very frustrated.

[@fedev80]

It's funny to see non backers taking relief on this review, giving it credit so easily. It seems to me that if someone ever considered backing this, it's probably because their into miniature / story / exploration / resource management games... and this game delivered just that. And it's an amazing game, despite some of the valid criticism, and considering that some of them are not flaws, is just a matter of learning how to play it properly.... so yeah you missed out a great game.

[@marky437]

not really it also depends on personal taste and this game may not be for everyone so they haven't missed out on "a great game" lol

[@valindor]

Great review. This is exactly what killed it for me for 7th Continent. Except 7th Continent was worse because you had to start over and over and over again. Maybe some people like that (looking at you Dark Souls peeps). I couldn't ever figure it out but this review helped. I KS'd 7th Citadel so we'll see if that's better because I think it saves and you can progress

[@Webchain]

"or maybe only 10, ... just make every hour count." BOOM, nailed it.

[@ludwigmises]

Whenever I see this game title, am I the only one who wants to break into a parody of that old Soft Cell song “Tainted Love”. 🎵”Touch me baby, tainted grail”

[@maddmugsy]

Thanks - Made me feel better about missing the kickstarter :)

[@maddmugsy]

@@kwisatzhaderach88 Well, it's too late now... I'll have to wait and see if they do a 2nd Kickstarter

[@benlauson555]

It's ok. Not for some, especially with that price tag, unless you like spending money. ✨🌟💰🤩💰🌟✨ Still, I can see the appeal.

[@Edelgul1717]

@@maddmugsy Oh, wait for them to start delivering expantions. Then the game will be out, and also many people will start selling it out.

[@denisloebner4882]

@@maddmugsy i think they will reopen the pledge manager very soonish.

[@johnathancobb29]

Hmmnn.. it had to happen... eventually. But here it is, a review I don't entirely agree with. As usual, the criticisms are well observed and justified, but I think you have missed the sources of entertainment the game brings. First, co-operative games often fail to generate a need for co-operation. This game has caused me and my son to debate and consider more than any other. Choice exists, and if you are able to shrug your shoulders when choices didn't work out, then you will be fine. Second, I think the card play puzzle of the fights and diplomacy are a real positive. We have had a number of moments where a really tricky challenge has been overcome but just good strategy and careful card play. And as the decks get harder, I hope the challenge will continue. I wonder if you struggled with this game because you had to play such long blocks in readiness for the review. I can imagine that this game might wear thin if you play 4-6 hours at a time. 2 hour blocks with days between keep it fresh. We are approaching Chapter 5 and I don't recall a game that has engaged me more (other than Gloomhaven - 26 episodes done)

[@Bandit-137]

Johnathan Cobb Well said! There are even advanced rules we have added to keep up the tension.

[@sp1cychick3n]

Well, I don't agree with your statement that "co-operative games often fail to generate a need for co-operation." Our group has played a lot of games where we do need to deliberate and don't shrug our shoulders; we actually discuss it before more moving. There are a plethora of games that you have to think about and co-operate. This game does nothing special in that regard, in my opinion.

[@michaellee6537]

I would love to see a list of campaign games NPI actually likes. I know they like Gloomhaven, but what else?

[@Digitalfiendscom]

Plastisaurusrex is my new favourite word for Kickstarter games...particularly CMON games lol.

[@CeePhour]

That 18:07 "thin as tokens in the original printing of Castles of Burgundy" jab didn't go unnoticed. Well done!

[@Olvenskol]

"As thin as tokens in the original Castles of Burgundy" :)

[@KristoVaher]

You guys should review Dungeon Degenerates, zero miniatures! Weird as hell adventure.

[@TheDungeonDive]

Amazing game. Truly a work of art in every aspect.

[@kennyv.2189]

My favorite game. But that being said, on it's own it's.. good, but not great. What makes it great is playing it right, and by that I mean owning and reading the lore books as you encounter new locations and enemies, soaking in so much lore that you feel a part of this world. This, and a good soundtrack (Mandy is my favorite) makes it my favorite experience that no other game can touch because no other game does this! (If I'm wrong, let me know, I want more like it) It's like reading a short novel and playing it at the same time.. I should also mention, this is a solo review, I wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much with others. Oh, and I absolutely love the artwork. It's hanging in my walls when I'm not playing it.. Along with my favorite Mad magazine covers.. I think Sean is a genius and I hope he recovers well, I can't imagine how hard it must be for him to not be able to draw anymore.

[@kennyv.2189]

@@MikeDV34 Why? I feel it's very streamlined. Pick a stance, move or rest, pull a danger card and either fight, explore an encounter, both or neither. Then repeat. Yes, there are a lot of enemy abilities that need referencing, and learning the various mechanics takes time (void gates, hand of doom etc.), but it's not sloppy, to me it seems pretty tight.

[@KristoVaher]

@@munchinkin if you have a 7-year-old that can draw like that, let me know. I'd love to invest in their future.

[@mohre5911]

I've posted the same comment 😂 yeah, Dungeon Degenerates !!!!! Please review it

[@mbalazs3544]

Now i must say my "way" if someone tells me open world rpg is simple on first try if i want to see if this game works, i go kill stuff :D or die in the attempt if i fail bad game if I flourish good game :D Lucky for my i had fiend who was a diplomat explorer, so i could go my merry was gather food and resources, before that go to an arena and managed to beat it with my hammer while i 100% ignored the quest chore letting my friend go for it, he needed help, my hammer was ready, and the best experience in coop i had in my life IN ANY game was in this, we bringing girl to home on time when tile monster attack I hammer the monster alone because im Baor :D and hammer in the te fight making my manliness shown, my friend was the healer he heals me than he dos the diplomacy, than we go out marry way he to quest and inveterate i go get more food and fight :D and when critical time happen he asked me got to the mist i was big enough to do my own investigation too so i go there get stuff done it was where the thing was than he comes over and we collectedly barely make wth quest :D. I did not give fudge what the game wanted its the game job to be entertain so i went for what i like, lift it fails not my game, but it worked because team different characters and play style :D My thing is combat Baor op he can do 10 damage 4,66 to one in first round. and that s ALL care (yes i was lucky to get that card :D wont ever play without it again its called cheating than :D) I love chooses mostly love to choose loot and hammer :D my friend loves story and explore i don't we are perfect match :D so the game is fun if the owner know what to do and the "guest player" likes what to do and they can win. Chapter 1 so far so good :D

[@andreuzzo1]

to be fair, I agree with most of your points, and am still having a blast! there were a couple of sessions where some of the issues you discuss left us confused and frustrated, but you only need to house rule a couple of minor things to improve gameplay massively

[@rien2000]

Hello ! What do you think about the promess of the improvements in the next Tainted Grail ? I hesitate now... Thanks in advance for your answer !

[@polymossimal]

I love you guys but it feels like 9 out of 10 npi reviews are negative.

[@NoPunIncluded]

As someone who's seen every single one of them I can tell you that those statistics are not even remotly close to true!

[@polymossimal]

@@NoPunIncluded ok well I still love you guys and thank you for what you do. :-)

[@beansdicecarlos7890]

That's part of what I like about NPI. I can get a different perspective from all the other "paid advertising"....I mean.... "Reviewers" on KZbin.

[@Gnulash]

Really loved this review. The in-depth assessment of mechanics in the game really got me to feel I understood the strengths and failures of the somewhat new design ideas in the medium of board games. Very well edited and scripted :)

[@midnitecitylights]

I've heard nothing but raving reviews on this game, but yours seems the most legit by a long shot. Other channels just read its description, and talk briefly about how awesome it is, like they were paid to. Thanks for keeping it real.

[@marky437]

most reviewers are probably members of BGG and it's funny how it is very similar to Rotten Tomatoes,,,,Oh the BGG gave it a high rating therefore it's amazing. Best way is to try the game out first and watch different reviews and is it the game, theme for you lol

[@RichieDeeK]

It’s a KS. Efka hates it. Big surprise.

[@chrismccart173]

Just curious to know what you think about Rising Sun.

[@VinegarAndSaltedFries]

Absolutely lovely review. ( apart from the eating food part, my brain hates food on someone face I don’t know why) Got a really good feel for the game and with so much competition in both storytelling and Interesting Miniature games I kinda had the feeling a lot of the love for this was probably over enthusiastic justification by some for spending so much on a game. The camerawork was dynamic, the sound was great, and the overall review was wonderfully constructed and thoughtful. It gave me both the information I needed to make a valid decision on whether or not I wanted this game, all while keeping me entertained. Keep up the amazing work. And give Bessie an extra scritch on the noggin for me. Thank you for the hard work NPI.

[@nutherefurlong]

If you have a game book, where you can slide in a bookmark before taking a route and find that the route arbitrarily kills you, going back, even in a game with stats, takes probably less than a minute. The more stuff to keep track of, the harder it is to rewind, or worse yet, reset. I like games that have an element of mastery, if you remember that the things that lead up to the decision that killed your character last time, even if the decision was arbitrary, you'll know which way to go the next time. BUT if the game has too many moving pieces, the incentive to retry or rewind is diminished. Maybe they were fans of such game books but size of the engine brings it down. If all of this was digital the pain would be a bit less, but unless the dead ends have some degree of entertainment or knowledge attached, I don't know if that would be enough. I would absolutely love to hear your thoughts on Kingdom of Ruin but I know that's probably asking too much. I STILL think of this review, especially the half-hearted trumpet thing in between chapters. Did you guys just make those sounds?

[@NoPunIncluded]

Ha, no. It is sadly but a sound effect.

[@danyjacco4853]

Every review that I stumble upon from you are negative! I'm like argh, what is he gonna complain about this time 😂

[@Deaddinoproductions]

I appreciate the honest review. Gonna take it with a big grain of salt though. Given your very similar take on 7th Continent, you guys seem to have a particularly strong distaste for this specific formula. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it appears to be much more a matter of your personal and subject feelings with regard to a certain style of game rather than a matter of the quality of the game itself. I might not be so quick to interpret it that way if it wasn’t for the fact that there’s been overwhelmingly high praise among the vast majority of reputable reviewers for both 7th Continent and Tainted Grail, and that praise has withstood the test of time (likely well beyond the first 10 hours of gameplay for many people) and landed both games among the top releases of their respective years for a lot of those reviewers. This isn’t to say your take on it is any less valid (arguably it’s even more worth listening to since you’re not just repeating the same things all the other guys are saying), but it does give me reason to believe that these games are not in fact as deeply flawed as you make them out to be and that you just really really don’t enjoy this genre of games.

[@themain7387]

I felt the same, there is so much subjective taste in this review that he's spewing as fact. Like having too much dark in his dark fantasy? I've already sunk my teeth into Tainted Grail and I can say that he isn't outright lying in his review, but he's really, REALLY emphasizing either small drawbacks, minor annoyances, or subjective content.

[@jane.4802]

Boy, I love that review. Havent seen another video of you before but sure will do so in the furture. I've gota question though at this point, maybe I just missed it. I've watched Tom Vassels review on this before, he was just ten hours in the game when he did it but he said he played on easy difficulty to delve into the story. So there are different dificulties, which did you choose?

[@slein_grobaaf]

great review.. did you try playing with in story mode, or whatever awaken realms called it?? kinda hoping it will make survival less grindy.. im still waiting to get mine though, and i probably regretted backing a bit, because i realised im not really into open world stuff (the same thing with computergames), i prefer something more streamlined/intense.. obviously really hope ill like it anyways, i hope the story will make up for the open world stuff :D

[@UnCompress_]

I absolutely love classic RPG's console games (8 and 16 bit era) where you grind for hours and hours leveling up by fighting baddies. A lot of people find this grinding horrible and can't believe any human being loves this kind of gameplay. I think it's the same in this interview. Here you have a couple who just don't like this grinding in a game an find it tedious. I have a lot of fun with it and find the rest of the gameplay even better. The combat/diplomacy system is excellent, way better than dice rolls that game degisners resolve to when making these kind of games. Not a single mention about this innovative design in this review makes me wonder...

[@LMKlees]

Did you guys do KDM yet? I'm curious if you guys would like it. Highly doubt it but It sounds like its more accessible than this.

[@mohre5911]

If you really want to review a great open world game, you should try out Dungeon Degenerates - Hand of Doom! Has over 20 missions, but you only play like 4-7 to end the story. So it hits the sweet spot of 10 hours to finish it and try other routes for a second and third run. Best adventure game of 2019 IMO. Great video though

[@kennyv.2189]

I already added this in another comment on this video, but just to reiterate.. if you're not playing with the extra lore books and a good soundtrack, you're not playing it correctly. Oh, and I totally agree.

[@ironwolf56]

Branching mission path, I've seen that in quite a few games, even Imperial Assault is basically like that.

[@Melinikus]

If only the art didn't physically cause me pain...

[@mohre5911]

@@Melinikus that's what I thought in the first place... But after deep diving into the world I love the wart and the colour scheme.

[@LudovoxFr]

I loved this video from the beginning to the very end. This degree of analysis and precision in the points you made is remarquable. Thank you very much for such an honest review which is quite rare among « influencers ». Sha-Man

[@zenithquasar9623]

Production values look really good though, the art and that map!

[@solsang]

Thank you so much, i was just about to get this on sale, you saved my day and money to buy anything else :)

[@jonfaniskousouris9653]

That was a fantastic and very useful review Efka. NPI keeps getting better and better. Thanks.

[@irishbob81]

Whenever this channel hates a game, I know I’m going to love it.

[@GuyGallium]

yes NPI YES! YES! Eschew the pretty trappings of boardgames and give in to the train games and their utilitarian graphics and deep compelling gameplay! Denounce the minis kickstarters YES! :P

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Those miniatures look really great, damn. It does seem like a great game though, even with those faults you have highlighted.

[@slavenkarakas]

They should have made an app for Journal and something else than that silly Food system that feels like a ball and chain.

[@tashn9475]

This game is truly great! Gave me one of the biggest emotions ever in boardgaming. Ye, its better to play 1-2 players, rules are abit hard and unclear, but narrative and situations that this game make is just fantasic exp. Reccomend.

[@MrFormenis]

well this review kind of says what I'm thinking about tainted grail, I'm forcing myself to play it since i have paid so much for it.

[@readysetgo888]

Ackkkk. I disagree completely with the idea that the writing in Legacy of Dragonholt was better. That game was nothing but a predictable bore for us, especially mechanically. Overall, I agree with the lot of the criticisms here, but we've still mostly been having a ton of fun with Tainted Grail. That said, we're not above just speeding through some of the grindy stuff if we'd have more fun doing that. I think the story and world in TG are well worth it.

[@philhov]

I love that in a review where you really felt like the game didn’t live up to your expectations and the hype that you suggested what you feel are better alternatives. I hate when reviewers or commenters say there are better options, but don’t tell you what they are.