Take Two Podcast | Episode 6: Women in Ministry

[@moasaad]

Thanks! Amen to what you said Carmen! Who would argue, when the Holy Spirit calls on godly women like you to teach the word of God? So blessed by your ministry & thanks to Emma for spot on question! 🙏🏻🕊

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

Thanks, Mo! Emma did a great job with this episode.

[@rileyvierra933]

Mmmm, yes. This video tackles the "debate" perfectly; speaking the truth, while remaining understanding of how others might misinterpret. Love the conversation format! Great to see the passages broken down into context--while remaining non-bias--simply taking all of scripture as a whole and letting it speak for itself (wild concept haha). Very down-to-earth and simple "Exegesis" at it's finest.

[@curious4truth752]

So gentile on a jagged topic. Terrific!

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

Thanks so much!

[@stevencoronado4815]

This was great! Such a blessing, thank you!

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

Glad you enjoyed it, Steven!

[@shilohnott8972]

Thank you for this very thoughtful and relevant topic! I have personally been walking through this learning journey myself. Bless you both!

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

Thanks for watching! Glad you enjoyed this.

[@rolandholloway7085]

Another great episode. God works with what he has in the cultural to bring about change. Being overly disruptive will result in failure of the plan. God created woman to be his helper as in partner, not subservient lesser being.

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

Thanks so much, Roland! Glad you appreciated it.

[@ElenaLearningForeverToInfinity]

wow, I need to listen to this again and take notes this time, so I can remember so I can explain this to people

[@sarahharris5359]

A fantastic resource. Thanks Emma and Carmen.

[@taketwopodcast89]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@estheroftheshire]

Great conversation Carmen!! I loved reading Cynthia Long Westfall's book on Paul and Gender!

[@taketwopodcast89]

I have her book but haven't taken the time to read it yet. I hope to do so before too long!

[@lauraleeogan7523]

I appreciated these explanations. As Emma said, there's a lot to cover in such a short span of time. Carolyn Custis James is a great author, though I haven't read that particular book. Margaret Mowczko has done a lot of research on women in the Bible and addresses about women in leadership

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

Thanks, Laura Lee! I appreciate Margaret's careful historical / biblical work. She's a prolific writer!

[@rileyvierra933]

Also, thank you Emma for the effort to change hairstyles each video... one might say it's HAIR-larious.

[@andytse4108]

As a complementarian I really appreciate the approach taken in this video. Obviously it will inevitable be biased and incomplete for such a BIG topic, but the tone and gentleness is commendable! Thank you for the example you set. Looking forward to more! (Spiritual gifts???? 😉)

[@taketwopodcast89]

Thanks, Andy! So glad you enjoyed the video. Spiritual gifts would be a great topic for a future episode!

[@mariag4538]

This was so interesting and helpful! Thank you for providing us with such valuable insight. Have you heard of Dr. Lucy Peppiatt? She has written about this topic as well and I found her book to be eye opening.

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

Thanks, Maria! Yes, I'm reading her book now. (We filmed this episode last June, before I had her book).

[@RockonTF]

I will forever fight the translation “Helper” for עזר

[@tchittom]

Finally getting back to these after an extended hiatus (Torah Tuesday cough cough). Emma’s poise, respect, and knowledge astounds me as a parent myself. These videos are a proof that catechesis exists; she has a lot of work ahead of her, just as we did and still do. Ok, enough about that. Three things to add. First, the creation mandate cannot be Platonized. “Gardening” (bringing order from chaos) is worship. This alone and all by itself makes the question moot, as the work of the church is part of the creation mandate. Second, “she will be saved through childbirth” is a Jewish pregnancy saying that Paul is reinterpreting in the new age. No way to prove it, but that is my take. Also, nice job bringing in the real meaning of ησυχια. Martha acts as and is treated as a theologian by Jesus after the death of Lazarus. And I expected you to bring in the final blow on that 1 Cor passage: Was it to you the word first came?! Lucy Pepiatt (sp) is finding more call/response in 1 Cor than previously thought.

[@tchittom]

Forgot about two more things. The Spirit uses women to αποστέλλω the good news of the Kingdom. Let’s call this the Cornelius argument. Theologically, I think it too should make the entire discussion moot. This especially so when, again, we include the body and look at the women martyrs of the church. They bled and died just the same as the men. How dare anyone take their voice from them and side with their murderers.

[@Wren_Farthing]

@@tchittom Your comment reminds me an interview I just listened to with Naghmeh Panani on Preston Sprinkle's channel. I recommend it! While she wasn't martyred (Praise God) she certainly lived under the threat of it ministering in Iran. Late in the episode, the question about women leaders makes an appearance.

[@sarahfisher6774]

This was great! I concur... I see this debate in social media every week (if not every day). The responses can be very disheartening and discouraging. As a woman in ministry I've had some pretty harsh verbal abuse directed at me. It's extremely sad that the only abuse I've personally experienced has come from the mouths of other believers. It's okay to disagree, but let's be kind and compassionate about it.

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

So sorry that this has been your experience, Sarah. Ultimately, we each have to answer to God for our response to his call as well as for our treatment of each other.

[@dedmanraizd]

Carmen thanks for tackling these topics. So what I hear you implying maybe is: There is a place for women to be pastors. A question i have is naturally do you believe in roles as complementarias or more along the lines of an egalitarian? Or neither? I’d be curious for more insight as I find these issues that have troubled the church for centuries fascinating to identify and sometimes even challenge. Thank you.

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

I'm not a fan of either label. Both are misleading and neither quite captures the spirit of what Scripture teaches. I believe that God calls men and women to participate in kingdom work. Each denomination has its own way of working out whether and how roles differ for men and women. I do think that a woman could serve in a pastoral role, as it is a gift-based ministry (teaching, shepherding, neither of which are restricted to men).

[@dedmanraizd]

@@CarmenJoyImesPhD Thank you. I agree with that sentiment as well.

[@flematicoreformandose5046]

I completely agree with everything contributed in this video. And the times that I have argued with other men who have accused me of being effeminate and of being against "the word of God." How sad it is that they treat their wives in such a discriminatory way. And since I'm single sometimes I have to shut up

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

So sorry you've gotten pushback on this issue. It is something that people tend to feel very strongly about!

[@flematicoreformandose5046]

@@CarmenJoyImesPhD And they also use very offensive language. I am male and more or less I can bear it. But they can easily hurt a woman and feel discriminated against and end up leaving Christianity.

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

@@flematicoreformandose5046 yes. I can bear it, too, but I admit I was tempted to turn off comments for this video just in case things got ugly...

[@flematicoreformandose5046]

@@CarmenJoyImesPhD No Carmen, do not turn it off, but you can close the comments if it is a very controversial topic. Anyway at the moment from what I have read the comments are intelligent on the part of men. But you never know who can write. Although there are women like my grandmother who take the man's side to the detriment of themselves and believe that they are right.

[@edross980]

I would like to make 3 comments: 1 - My wife and I just watched this episode. I would be hard to describe how encouraging it is to see the next generation so engaged in God’s word. Actually, from our age perspective, it’s really the next 2 generations. 2 - I find it ironic that God’s first command to mankind is to be fruitful and replenish the earth and we men so often think that woman is only a helper. I think you should really think of it the other way - man is at best just a helper. Almost all of the real effort is done by the woman. 3 - Sometimes we think an official title is what qualifies a person. A title of “Ordained a pastor” does not make a person a pastor just as education alone does not make a person a teacher. People, men, and women, often take on the true roles of pastor, teacher, etc. without any official title. I’m not against official titles as they sometimes helpful to open doors but the Body of Christ is a pretty amazing thing. Oh, and one thing: I think your official title is not only well qualifies you as a teacher but you, in reality, are quite an amazing teacher. Your book “ Bearing God’s Name” was quite a life changer for me and your podcasts are amazing. Thanks Ed

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

This is so encouraging, Ed! Thank you!

[@abaum23.]

Hi Carmen, I find the cultural argument interesting that we don't try to recreate their culture but use the principles from what the author is writing to their culture. What other theology should we apply differently today than how it was back then (besides minute things such as holy kiss).

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

I would argue that EVERY command in Scripture needs to be evaluated in light of its cultural context so that we can be faithful to the intention behind the command by living out the principle behind it.

[@abaum23.]

@@CarmenJoyImesPhD Great! Thank you. I always wondered when reading this passage why did Paul encourage submission of women to men teachers who hold authority at this time? The false teachers in 1 Timothy are all men, so it seems like he should have said clearly if it were his aim to make false teaching the focus rather than gender roles.

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

@@abaum23. that's an interesting observation! There are so many things I'd love to ask Paul to clarify for us!

[@abaum23.]

@@CarmenJoyImesPhD Absolutely! Well thanks for these great, insightful videos!

[@emilylaw1494]

Loving your podcasts! I've been wondering why there are many birth, newborn, and mothering metaphors throughout the Bible and sometimes applied to men in situations of crisis. Do you know if the men of those times would have understood these metaphors? Were men a part of the childbirth/newborn process in ancient Hebrew? Or were these metaphors written to the female audience? I've wondered the significance of it and can't seem to find many resources on it. I find it so fascinating how an experience that only women endure is incorporated throughout the Bible, which is written by men.

[@taketwopodcast89]

Emily, I love your question! Evidently men knew enough about childbirth to write about it. Families lived in close quarters and births happened at home, so it would have been part of life! I'm not sure whether men would have been involved in the birth itself.

[@emilylaw1494]

@@taketwopodcast89 thanks for your response! It did bring clarity to something I really couldn't find much on.

[@dheadley5890]

Love your work Carmen and great podcast Emma. So nice to see mother and daughter doing this together. As a male pastor I've found Bearing God's Image a great resource and it will be a great blessing to me as I prepare a series soon on the ten commandments. However, I found this particular episode a bit exegetically weak and I feel it does slightly undermine your OT work, Carmen. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of great things you pointed out that I (as a complementarian) would totally agree with - we need to look at the principles behind the imperatives, read the text in context, and note there are tons of ways women can and should serve in the kingdom (to name a few). However, your choice of texts and treatment of them and your lack of engagement with the best complementarian arguments brings this episode down a bit. Though I really don't want to discourage you and certainly not you, Emma. I know you can't be expected to be an expert on every topic or part of the Bible and you've obviously had to wrestle with this issue yourself as an adept Bible teacher and you speak very articulately. Fwiw, I think a clear principle from the Old and NT is that men and women are equal but have different roles (as u said), but as such, men have a 'headship' role and wives are told to take a posture of submission to that headship/leadership as to the lord. It would be very surprising indeed if a man had this headship in the home, but his wife was his head (by virtue of being an elder) in the church. I won't try to address every point here, but if you're interested, I think the better complementarian books on this topic are Wayne Grudem's: Biblical manhood and womanhood, Evangelical feminism and biblical truth; and Claire Smith's book, God's Good Design. Don Carson has also spoken well on this topic. Peace in Christ.

[@Pandaemoni]

The men I know who do not have an very "expansive" view of the permitted role of women in the church (or marriage or even in society more broadly in a few cases) are not really all that open to having a debate on their reading of those passages of the Bible (at least in my experience). So, while an adult who comes to a different reading may have the option of changing churches, for a young person I am not sure there is a lot of room for them to stand up and debate the point when and if they feel it's important.

[@helenahall4893]

I have a question. Culture of that time was mentioned. The Bible says God is the same today, yesterday, and forever. Doesn't this mean His word never changes. The word also says the Bible was not written on their own, rather it is inspired by God. So wouldn't this mean whatever the word says, we're supposed to do no matter what. Also, the Bible tells us we are not to add or take away from the word. Wouldn't this mean you can't say what you think it means but just do as it say?

[@NazgulGamer1]

I listen to this as someone who is exploring the topic of roles in churches. I don’t think it is right to use our current social cultural lens to interpret scripture. I think we have to asses scripture in the culture that God brought forth his word and ask the question how can his word shape us and then shape our current culture (not the reverse). God is all wise, knowing and present so he knew the issues we would face today.

[@elissapicconatto7837]

Can you please give me your take on my question about 1 Corinthians 14: 34-35? Since Paul is known to quote sayings as part of explaining things ("To an unknown god..."), do you think that these two verses could reasonably be explained as actually coming from a saying of the time that Paul was quoting and calling out as false? I've been chewing on this one for a while, and, although I don't feel prepared to use this idea as a plausible understanding of the passage yet, it seems so logical to me, especially when I take into account Paul's strong words of reprimand immediately following. I'd love to hear your answer because of your level of biblical scholarship.

[@CarmenJoyImesPhD]

Yes, this is a possibility. I believe that Lucy Peppiatt argues it in her books. (But I'm reading her work very slowly with a group and we're not to that part of the book yet). It's definitely worth considering!

[@elissapicconatto7837]

@@CarmenJoyImesPhD Thank you for your answer! I look forward to watching more videos!

[@sofoniasgonzalez3615]

Women who want to be pastors interprete these passages to their advantage . Eve new exactly what she was doing when she ate the fruit , she new she was not suppose to eat the fruit you interprete this passage to give Eve an excuse in other words you justify her acción under the pretense of ignorance . You brought up Deborah but think about , the book of judges is not actually a doctrinal in the beginning of the book it says they did not know God’s law so every one did what they thought it was right . As far as I am concerned 1 Timothy 2:12-14 is clear Paul brought up the order of creation God gave Adam the power to name all his creation so Eve new exactly what did it mean not to eat the fruit no excuses . When they sinned God blamed Adam because he was the one in charge . 1 Corinthians 11 God is the head of Christ , Christ is the head of man and man the head of the woman , if Chist having the same attributes as the father he voluntarily submitted to him . The problem is that women calling themselves godly but when it comes to who is in charge they don’t want to recognize that just like Eve in the garden .