Prop Strike, Is Engine Tear Down Necessary? InTheHangar Ep

Got a nick on your prop? At what point after a prop strike do you need an engine teardown and inspection? Whats the difference between a prop strike and sudden stoppage? Dan and Christy talk to Pinnacle Aircraft Engines JD Kuti about prop strikes and engine overhauls.
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[@wadenulton9243]

I love the thermostat in the background with the instruction manual sticking out from behind it.

[@pilotchristy]

We’re pilots. We like checklists. 😂

[@wadenulton9243]

@@pilotchristy ha! Beat comment ever. I think it shows the human side, hence my comment. Your vids are helping keep me sane while grounded for a couple weeks due to unforeseen health issues. Keep up the good work!

[@SmittySmithsonite]

Great info! It amazes me how aviation engines run roughly 4x-6x what automobile engines cost, parts wise, and for complete assemblies. Gotta pay to play, as they say! As a auto and small engine mechanic, every so often I'll get a customer that gets sticker shock when presented with a bill. 98% of people have no idea what it took to get that job done. If it were easy, EVERYONE would fix their own vehicles! I suppose the same goes for aircraft. The funny thing is, a large percentage of people treat them as if they're worthless - never changing oil, air filters, plugs, etc.. With today's engines, the way auto manufacturers cut corners these days, you just can't do that and expect a long engine life. Those days are gone, unfortunately. Anyway, great interview, Dan & Christy, and great info from JD! Much appreciated!

[@77thTrombone]

"Most people have no idea..." Roger that! I needed to pull the headlights off my Nissan recently. Between me being a nubb and having only a covered carport in winter weather, it took me a week! So many fasteners, but nothing complex or heavy. Next time I'll just swallow the $1,000 charge from the shop and get new lights.

[@williamwalker3849]

I bought a 1962 Mooney M20C four years ago. Looking through the log books I saw where it had had a prop strike three owners before me. They checked the run out on the crank, replaced some parts inside of the accessory housing and replaced the prop. The more I thought about it I decided to have the engine pulled, disassembled and send the crank off and have it inspected before I took any of my family up flying in the plane. The crank had a crack through the front oil hole and had to be replaced. The engine had 1,500 hours on the bottom end and 160 hours on the top end. It hade 205 hours since the prop strike. I am glad that I never took my family flying.

[@KevinSmithAviation]

Great episode Dan and Christy. Great topic with valuable information. Thank you. 🤘🇺🇸🛩️

[@greglong2784]

Excellent interview and video. Thanks

[@mcdowelltw]

Great video and one to remember when faced with a prop strike. Very fortunately I never had one of those.

[@stevenhorney7735]

Excellent content; I really appreciate the solid information.

[@thejcarne]

Dan you guys should do a show on your insurance premiums after a prop strike inspection. I can tell you what happened to mine... If yours doesn't go up dramatically I want to know their name! haha

[@TakingOff]

Yeah, when I'm on the other side of this, I"m planning on doing a big one on insurance. And yes, for some bizarre reasons, my rates went up. 😜

[@fuffoon]

Flying is serious business. I'm a big fan of inspection and preventive maintanence. There is a lot of information in this discussion.

[@wayneschenk5512]

Good advice.

[@Marc9889]

An O-360 in an RV4 is a spectacular combination (not knocking an RV6).

[@josephjolly1936]

Great information, thanks for the video.👍

[@gmcjetpilot]

I use to think that tear down and inspection was overkill. I bought a O360 for my kit plane. The engine stopped in flight. Not making power. The forced landing the prop got slightly bent. I had the whole thing torn down. The case had a slight crack which COULD have been there all along. It was repaired. The radius near the prop flange (hollow crank for CS prop) was stripped and inspected and no crack found. It was shot peen and re plated. Nothing else was found. Was the case crack to prop strike? I doubt it but error on side of caution. Also if you have an accessory gear fail you engine is OVER....

[@Jeffrey-Flys]

The plane I am learning in had a “prop hits tow bar.” Incident. It is now 1/3 of the way into a tear down and overhaul. Also… needing a new prop… obviously. Why would you NOT?

[@thefreedomguyuk]

Thank you, Sir ! You may be a student, but you are a better airman than some seasoned sailors. Indeed, why not ? It's something for the insurers to sort out anyway.

[@MicahMesser]

The answer: yes, you need to have it removed and inspected.

[@JustaPilot1]

As pointed out in the video, it depends.

[@avflyguy]

@@JustaPilot1 ....To whether you have insurance or not :-]

[@PDZ1122]

Wrong and no. Did you invent that rule? Show me a regulation or an AD that states you have to do this. READ the regs. I've seen lots of composite and wood prop strike engines that had zero effect on the engine. Some people want to throw $20 grand at the engine shop and they're entitled to that. But there is no regulation that says you need to do that

[@avflyguy]

@@PDZ1122 You may be correct insofar as FAR's under part 91, although there may be something in FAR's under Part 141, Part 61 or Pt 135. However if the hull was insured, (regardless of what FAR's may or may not apply) the registered owner pretty much has 2 options. The insurance company may *strongly* request that it is subject to inspection. If you disagree (or refuse), the company has the right to declare the aircraft a total loss, pay the stated value, then take possession of the aircraft and sell as deregistered salvage. If no hull, the company may have a right to non-renew your policy or to increase rates exponentially.

[@woof3598]

good video, would liked more info on how they start a prop strike inspection, what they start with, costs for just the inspection that kinda thing

[@TakingOff]

It's an all or nothing deal. First off, you pull the prop off and get it checked to see if you need a new prop or if you can overhaul the existing. New prop like mine (constant speed) can run $12-20K. They can do a check of the flange to see if there's any noticeable problems with the crankshaft. That's an hour of an A&P's time. After that, its a removal, ship, teardown and inspection. Maybe $5-8k for the removal and reinstall, and $13-15k for the teardown and inspection.

[@woof3598]

@@TakingOff ouch, but how would they know if you put a twist in the crank with out pulling it out, a friend I used to work with had his A and P, he kept saying you just cant pull over to the side of the road if your hear some thing ....you got be 100% sure before he would sign off

[@TakingOff]

I wish I had filmed more video with my phone when the local A&P did the test, but basically, with the prop off, they mount an instrument that goes up against the flange. Then they rotate the flange to see if there's any discrepancy in the rotation. I think it's called dialing the prop, but someone can correct me on that. The point being is that if the crankshaft is bent, you will see a discrepancy. The old A&P told me in all his years of dialing, he's never come across one that's failed. So he put my new prop on, I got a ferry permit to fly to my A&P, and we were off to the races.

[@dabneyoffermein595]

What does prop blending mean? What does FSDO stand for?

[@mattbasford6299]

We had a prop strike by one of our club members on our 182 last November. It was 500 miles from home. We were going to get a ferry permit and bring it hime. Our insurance said they wouldn't cover the flight back, so we had to get the work done in Miami.

[@TakingOff]

What I learned, was that for continentals, you did not need a ferry permit.

[@mattbasford6299]

@@TakingOff we had a continental too. Insurance wouldn't cover the flight home.

[@UncleKennysPlace]

When I did a very light prang of the propeller on a runway, the local mechanic put an indicator on the crank end, and it was perfect. I flew in a new propeller, had it mounted, and flew the bird back. It made my partner nervous, so our insurance guy said that they'd pay for a tear-down inspection and having the crank magnafluxed. We only had a few hundred house since a major, but I paid for new ring and bearings, and there was no issue with the crank. But it was "free", in that it didn't cost us any more out-of-pocket. But you don't know until you rip it apart, do you?

[@TakingOff]

Exactly.

[@monsenrm]

In my case a prop strike was a godsend. I was going to buy a 182 with 600 hours on the engine but when I went to see it there was no engine! What happened? Well the owner confessed to a prop strike on a tow bar. It turns out there was 3 bad cylinders so I paid for three more (he paid the others). Also he had to pay for a new prop so I added about $10,000 for a new Harrell 3 blade. In the end I got a new engine and prop for about $20,000 over the original cost.

[@TakingOff]

Nice!

[@lsmftwitchell1939]

Improper inspection of a prop strike killed a friend of mine. The engine came apart in the air, spread oil on the cockpit, and it burst into flame before crashing.

[@TakingOff]

Im so sorry. That's horrible.

[@Cokie907]

The old answer always was "if sudden stoppage is suspected, then you must dial the crank" to determine if there was any deformation.

[@TCovey210]

Love my tsio520 continental

[@maximolopezsr9399]

What is the Continental S/B.nimber

[@gtr1952]

So, you decide to do the minimum after a prop strike. Bore scope, but the cases are not split. Your then out doing a 'photo shoot', over a densely populated city, low altitude, with no airport or place within the 'glide ring' to get down safely. Your engine makes one or more "odd noises". (Odd = different from what is usual or expected.) At that point, I would bet everyone would be willing to open their checkbook and write the check for the complete job, overhaul and/or complete inspection. For me, I would prefer to just skip the first part and write the check. 8) JMHO --gary

[@TakingOff]

Hi Gary-- I"m a bit confused. I never decided to "do the minimum?" WHen the strike happened, I could have just put a new prop on after the A&P dialed the flange and would have been "legal" according to the local FSDO office (because it's a continental). But instead, from the start, I had decided to do a removal and teardown inspection. I never flew it over a densely populated area for a photo mission. Are you just making a hypothetical if I *had* decided to just put a prop on and call it good?

[@gtr1952]

@@TakingOff It was all hypothetical Dan, sorry I didn't make that more clear. I should have used something different. Sorry, my bad... 8( --gary

[@TakingOff]

😂 sorry I missed took it!

[@GaryMCurran]

Dan, if you had known then what you know now, would you have considered the Vitatoe Aviation conversion to a TSIO-55?

[@TakingOff]

I would love to, but I don’t have that kind of money.

[@GaryMCurran]

@@TakingOff which is kind of what I expected.

[@chadfan7259]

@ Hello. I am very interested in the footage of the ufo depicted in this video. If you could give any addition information on who filmed the video, or on the video in general I would really appreciate it.

[@TakingOff]

There's no UFO footage in this video.

[@chadfan7259]

@@TakingOff kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y52Zg2acicmafbs This one, sorry for the confusion.

[@grandpagrandpa4286]

Should be obvious - the strike caused a harsh impact against bearings and other components that were not designed to take stress from that angle. Not hard to imagine the potential damage caused there.

[@jamesonpace726]

Oh boy, she got herself a new, cleeaan pair o pants! Yay...!

[@blackhd92]

If you cannot afford to purchase a airplane without having to let others use it(to help pay for it) and it gets used in a manner you dont like......Dont bitch about it forever.Is that fair enough?

[@onfin3al6]

Your prop hits a rock and damages the prop . . I might suggest taking the prop of to see if it can be repaired then I would check the prop attachment to the hub and also the crankshaft for possible hairline cracks . You can fix it on the ground not in the air .

[@TakingOff]

All those steps were taken with my plane. We took off prop and I delivered it to a certified prop company and it did not qualify for an overhaul.

[@harmonhardyiii1203]

Continentals run smoother.

[@RobtheAviator]

Agree to disagree !

[@TheReadBaron91]

Bit your mechanic will hate you if you buy one…just kidding but they suck to work on compared to Lycoming. Of course, some things are easier, but overall…

[@bad05ford]

Cost per hour is ridiculous. Why can't they last longer? This isn't 1940 anymore.

[@DarrylZubot]

I have rotax which has been the cheapest to operate and longest lasting in my aerial survey company. They also run smoother and are more fuel efficient. But I’m personally really looking forward to all electric. I’m tired of gas engines and the never ending problems that come up.

[@skipgetelman3418]

Too expensive to own a plane

[@robstanton9215]

Why the heck were you off-roading in a 210 with spindly gear in the first place? When your gear is submerged in mud it’s likely you’re going to strike the prop.

[@TakingOff]

Because my Polaris Ranger was in the shop. How else was I going to round up the cattle?

[@robstanton9215]

@@TakingOff on horseback

[@TakingOff]

@@robstanton9215 they were checked out that day.

[@michaelb.8953]

So my take away from all this is as you're facing an overhaul one should accidentally on purpose have a prop strike and the insurance company helps you fund your overhaul engine.....just kidding.

[@TakingOff]

It’s not worth the hassle. Even with the insurance, I wish it had never happened.

[@chevyon37s]

It’s funny to think about... not so funny when you actually look at the numbers and you figure out what your increase in insurance premiums will end up costing you in the long run...

[@deani2431]

Would be better if you guys stayed on subject (not interested in hearing about overspeeds), and naming/calling airplanes "she" is aggravating. They are inanimate objects.

[@johnreed8872]

Hey guys... great topic, if people treated all of their equipment ( from weedwackers to pickup trucks ) with the same preventive maintenance and tender loving care as most pilots do there would be alot less needless replacement. I like to think that my pre flighting experience makes me a little better with operating other equipment. Thanks for the interesting content, you guys are great! Blue Skies!

[@thefreedomguyuk]

You'd be surprised to see how many are happy to fly around in aircrafts which aren't as airworthy as the logs may insinuate.

[@johnreed8872]

@@thefreedomguyuk I agree completely, I said Most pilots. I've also seen and even flown in a few somewhat "sketchy" aircraft. I made a couple hundred skydives in the 80s and some of the equipment was a little questionable. After earning my PPL and almost completing A&P training, I've become quite a bit more picky about the aircraft that I'll fly in. I've also become Very strict about preventive maintenance on everything I own. Thanks for the reply, Be Safe!

[@lsmftwitchell1939]

I've been an aviation mechanic for 40 years and have been preaching preventative maintenance on other vehicles all that time.

[@johnreed8872]

@@lsmftwitchell1939 I freaking cringe when I see some people handling equipment ( not mine! ) cold starting technique, improper RPM management etc. LOP vs. ROP the list goes on and on. Some people are misinformed, unbelievably some really just don't care! I try to educate my friends and family but don't want to come across as a know it all!

[@WolfPilot]

What a great and sensitive topic, especially for Dan! 2 dew claws up!

[@ReflectedMiles]

I'm telling you right now that if your prop ever goes on strike, an engine teardown is mandatory.

[@budowens6478]

I would like to hear a mechanic describe how to break in a new cylinder or cylinders. Thanks for sharing

[@TakingOff]

We have that in an earlier video. If I get some time, I'll find it and post a link here.

[@SeanWhite]

Listen to the manufacturer!

[@mikemorgan8792]

Excellent information on today’s show! Very informative, thank you Dan and Christy

[@77thTrombone]

Do you guys sit so far apart because of COVID? The distancing always seems unnatural on your videos.

[@rollingreene1220]

Very-Very informative and well balanced discussion - Again, leaned a lot

[@ssairshows]

If the engine was running, even at idle, and you have a prop stike you need a tear down. The bolt on the back of the crankshaft that retains the accessory drive gear is known to crack...I know this from experience and have pictures, not just reading the AD. You can only see this damage by removing the rear cover from the engine and taking it apart during the teardown. There may also be other hidden damage inside the engine. An engine that has suffered a sudden stoppage from a prop strike is a ticking time bomb that will go off catastrophically.

[@twentyrothmans7308]

Thank you, JD. This was fascinating. And thank you too to Christy and Dan.

[@markcollins8112]

Very informative video really enjoyed it and your candor about your airplane and the prop strike.

[@rogerbartels5223]

Good evening Christy, Dan & JD. There is something that people should understand: there is NO such thing as a "Top OverHaul". Cylinders are "ON CONDITION". That means that Cylinders do NOT have a "TBO", their condition of wear and airworthiness determines if they are airworthy to continue using or to be repaired or replaced. OF COURSE, JD is totally correct about the wear on the other parts, such as Camshafts, Valve Lifters (tappets) and Connecting Rod / Piston Pin Bushings. IF you put on 6 "Reconditioned / OverHauled" cylinders at 100 hours before TBO / required OverHaul and you are required to replace the engine at TBO, such as at an Air Taxi, you can take your low time Cylinders OFF and put them on the OverHauled "bottom end" and use those cylinders as long as they are airworthy. Nothing says that you are required to "OverHaul" a Cylinder which has been "OverHauled" 100 hours previously. IF you have just replaced your cylinders, as above, then put the OLD removed Cylinders back onto the engine and send it to the O/H shop. Then, you either have 6 known good spare Cylinders or put them on the O/H'd "bottom end". Some common sense can save a LOT of money and frustration. This subject is too long to write a book in this comment. Happy Flying and stay SAFE at all times!!!

[@thefreedomguyuk]

Whats necessary is not relevant here. What is relevant are the requirements specified by the manufacturer. There's no reason to ask that question. The question that should be asked is whether it really is necessary to stick one's propeller in the ground.

[@Recovering_Californian]

$22,000?? ...how do aircraft owners afford this? I mean, do you just put it all on an AmEx card? Or are you saving money every month in anticipation of these large expenses? Is there a video on this subject? -Thanks

[@TakingOff]

THe answer can be All of the Above. As part of buying the airplane, as I researched, it was clear that you have to factor the cost of overhauls and other maintenance, so you come up with an hourly operating cost, it's not just the fuel you put in. So taking into account scheduled and expected maintenance, while fuel might run about $75/hr, the real cost is more like $220 hour for my Cessna 210. So if you can, that's the money you put away to cover these kinda of things. And use a card to carry it if you didn't save enough. 🤣

[@Mike-01234]

Looking at that picture how did you get a Cessna 210 in the mud? Looks like a jeep trail.

[@ThePlaneDan]

I realize that your focus is mainly GA production aircraft. However, there is a very large segment of the aviation community that do not own those aircraft. I am referring to Experimental Aircraft. Many of those use wood or composite props. Some of them use ground adjustable and for many of these, the blades are interchangeable. Having a strike with one of these props may, emphasis on MAY, not affect the engine at all. Maybe you could have an episode that put the focus on these engine/prop combinations. PS: I love your shows, especially the ones with Christy.

[@TakingOff]

Yeah, the Exp world is pretty unknown to me, but I"m getting more into it.

[@uprosperto]

Yeah all engine shops want to remove the engine. I’ve seen Lycomings go 4000 hours. Totally speculative.

[@xheralt]

Without watching this, and as a fan (not an actual aviator) I would answer the question, "even if not strictly necessary, it would be prudent"

[@cd4222]

Most shops want to tear down the engine because of liability and to bring revenue to the shop. A little self serving!

[@cturdo]

Very informative - thanks!

[@jimgiordano5378]

Wonderful content as usual. One thing that was not addressed - overhaul due to time. I have heard that you should overhaul the engine every 12 years regardless of time. Was there any off camera discussion on this?

[@TakingOff]

No, there are far too many variables just to set a time. What type of engine it is, what type of environment it was stored in (near salt water?), how many hours if any it was run. All those things can go into a relatively dormant engine. For me, if I were about to fly a plane that had an engine sitting around for more than a decade, I would definitely have a mechanic thoroughly check it out.

[@uprosperto]

How many tim s do you hit a sudden stoppage on a mower and how the cranks ever break? Never.

[@larrybell5144]

A very thoughtful and thorough discussion. Thank you!

[@iloveaviation-burgerclub-a8145]

You don't have to if you a) have a pair of magic eyes or b) don't care.

[@jimmiemiles2901]

Did Pinnacle come to where the plane was to remove the engine and where are they in Alabama ? It looks like it

[@TakingOff]

No. Mechanic John Efinger removed, crated and shipped it to them in Alabama. Not sure exactly where they are.

[@jts4233]

Hi Christy, hi Dan! Thanks for bringing up this interesting topic. What about a following episode / part 2 where You ask the same questions to a ROTAX engine shop/mechanic? I love your fine/polite way of leading the conversations and its therefore one of the best aviation channels and by far the one with the most harmony in it. I like it a lot. Please keep on sharing your thoughts with us!

[@halfrhovsquared]

I’ve assisted on a shock-load-test on a Rotax 912 after a prop-strike. They don’t need to be completely stripped down. Their crankshafts are “sacrificial” and designed to be a weak-point. What is done is the top spark-plugs are removed and a probe is used to determine the top-dead-centre for each cylinder. This is measured on a protractor which is bolted to the engine and as long as the TDC values are within a certain margin, it means that the crankshaft has not buckled (they are press-fit and actually slip rather than buckle) and the engine should be good to go - I think there’s another test as well (although I cannot remember what it was as I only assisted with the TDC test) but either way, the engine did not need to be stripped down and it did not even need removing from the aircraft.

[@pilotchristy]

First! 😂

[@MicahMesser]

Cheating...

[@kendodson4134]

Dang!!! That’s Bryan Turner funny right there!!

[@Jeffrey-Flys]

🤯

[@thesearcherman6652]

@@Jeffrey-Flys 'was

[@woof3598]

as a car mechanic I loved this video, the price just floor me though

[@larryrobinson7492]

Same here, been in the automotive business my whole life as a top level technician and these aircraft engines are close to the technology of a simple model T engine...LOL, the prices of repairs are beyond Absurd.

[@daleolson3506]

Cat and John Deere have adopted aircraft pricing for their parts.

[@MichaelLloyd]

This is reall6y good but it highlights the concern I have in the back of my mind about owning and maintenance cost. I'd love to own an aircraft but at the moment I couldn't make it fit inside of a business. On a mechanical note : .012" rod / pin clearance... wow...

[@robertbridges8303]

Wonderful topic. I would have liked the discussion go one step further. Rather than overhaul upgrade to an IO550 especially in a C210 🤔👍🏻🇿🇦

[@waynep343]

Do Engine Shops use Light boxes to set parts on to get better images than that shown at 11 minutes. light boxes are like Xray light boxes on the wall.. but illuminate parts from the back side and the front with the flash. to get a better detail to the images.??

[@TCovey210]

Dan…. Be proud to fly behind your Connie….

[@waukeshapilot6462]

Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow..........They all work like that!

[@chadfan7259]

@ Hello. I am very interested in the footage of the ufo depicted in this video. If you could give any addition information on who filmed the video, or on the video in general I would really appreciate it.

[@leeoldershaw956]

I don't think prop strikes are common.

[@beachbum1523]

Very informative video. Well done.

[@lloydholt6511]

No curbs at eight thousand feet.

[@gunsaway1]

Interesting information

[@mannyr7206]

Hey Dan you I think your all about series are awesome! You should do a few more C177, PA28,PA32 etc…. They are extremely informative!

[@TakingOff]

Planning a 177 trip soon.

[@startrek91481]

So, what I'm hearing is if it's time for an overhaul it's time to go find a place to strike your prop lol 😆

[@TakingOff]

🤣

[@thomfult7956]

How do you hit a rock?

[@TakingOff]

Easy. Have your front tire sink about 8 inches into mud, lowering the nose even more.

[@speedomars]

According to Lycoming, this is what's considered a prop strike: Any incident during engine operation where the propeller impacts a solid object. This incident includes propeller strikes against the ground. Although the propeller can continue to turn, damage to the engine can occur, possibly with progression to engine failure. Sudden RPM drop on impact to water, tall grass, or similar yielding medium where propeller damage does not usually occur. Any incident, whether or not the engine is operating, where repair of the propeller is necessary. You can't know the extent of damage UNLESS you pull the engine apart....PERIOD. What damage? Side loading on the crankshaft of the propeller flange, front bearing, and seal. Even the slightest damage to the prop itself (even if it wasn't spinning when damaged) can cause crank damage over time. Initial damage may allow safe operation, but the progression of problems may become significantly severe with time and wear.

[@TakingOff]

All very true. What’s interesting here is that there is an AD for lycoming prop strike mandating engine tear down. But not Continental. So while I would always tear down my Continental, the FSDO informed me I wasn’t required. I did it anyway.

[@speedomars]

@@TakingOff Yes. Continental isn't as thorough as Lycoming. I fly a Cirrus so have a fuel-injected, turbo IO550. I am so careful I even get oil analysis with each oil change and change the oil twice as often as recommended. And I never run over 75% of power.

[@TakingOff]

I agree for the most part. I just hope you didn't baby it during break in. You've got to run those continentals hard and hot when breaking in. If you baby it (ie under 75% power), good chance of glazing and other bad things.

[@speedomars]

@@TakingOff Break-in is totally different. You are running mineral oil and seating rings. And you are running it full power for 25 hours. My engine has 700 hours on it now and it purrs like a kitten. Uses zero oil. And analysis shows wear inside normal ranges. I even still have the original main battery (the backup was replaced last annual). I use a battery tender on it to keep sulfates down and it was a great investment. There is no need to push the engine past the green CHTs nor run full power...I get 185 TAS at 75% power and that's plenty fast enough. I also figured out how to better run LOP...by using TIT temps instead of MAP or the Cirrus carat.

[@TakingOff]

Awesome. SOunds like you did it (and doing it) perfect.