Tastier and Tangier Sourdough by Baking it Twice?

[@barrychambers4047]

"Let's science this!" LOL!!!! I watched it twice, so I must have liked it!

[@helenjohnson7583]

Just when I thought EVERYTHING had been covered, you found another puzzle piece! Thanks for continuing to think inquisitively! And I love having a viewing window on an oven (a real oven). It is wonderful to watch things bake! (And sitting on the floor in front of the oven is also a nice physical break from standing in a kitchen.) You are good!

[@the_bread_code]

Thank you!

[@TheNutbrittle]

How interesting! I love videos like these because they explain the science behind bread making. I also like a strong sour taste in my bread. I'm experimenting with gluten-free sourdough bread! Long fermentation! So far, I've figured a way to just use only 1 type of flour without adding starches to my dough as I want to lower the carbs as much as possible as possible as well. 🤔 Perhaps I'll try this method one of these days. 🙂

[@JustinDybedahl]

I'm just starting out with sourdough baking and I'm so glad I found your channel! I had two attempts and a finger injury under my belt from this. By following the majority of your recipe on your site and binge watching your videos (and Food Geeks), I was able to find all the things I thought I was doing right but were wrong. Thank you so much for all of the videos and work you do for all of this! You are seriously a life saver and I look forward to all of the things you create. One thing I have to wonder though for this video, I wonder if you somehow held the bread in the range where lactobacillus prefers if it would keep generating more lactic acid, therefore producing a even more sour loaf. Then finishing the bake after this. One of the major reasons I got into sourdough was because it reminds me of homebrewing sour beer and I have no time for that any longer. If I can cure that sour craving with bread, oh man.

[@the_bread_code]

Thank you too!

[@ellengrace4609]

So interesting, Justin!

[@thalesmello]

Really interesting video. On that note, if baking your bread twice makes it more sour, boiling your dough, rather than steaming, might have the opposite effect because of the higher hydration environment. Would love to see an experiment about this (and even a Bagel recipe)!

[@the_bread_code]

Great idea!

[@helenjohnson7583]

Yes!!

[@laramosby2898]

I made sourdough bagels the other day, and they tasted like regular. So I would say definitely boiling helps with reducing sour taste.

[@jimmyp7657]

What was the weight of each prior to baking, after initial baking, after cooling, etc.? I am curious about the percentage of water loss which would increase the perception of greater acidity. Also, was the temperature of each loaf the same when you tasted it? As a loaf cools, the water molecules are absorbed into the starch, which I then can release again via heating by toasting or micro-waving. Have you attempted to vacuum seal both loaves and then re-baking several days later? Most of the parbaked loaves in the supermarket are vacuum sealed.

[@the_bread_code]

Great comments! How would you go about measuring the water loss? Just weigh the dough before and after the bake? Vacuum sealing is indeed a great idea. For my SO I toast the bread frequently, it helps to remove additional acidity. She doesn't like sour bread too much.

[@jimmyp7657]

@@the_bread_code Probably weigh at more points to take into account that there is evaporative loss as bread cools. This is typically why bread will be drier if it is cut too quickly and steam evaporates instead of being absorbed by the starch molecules. I'm not sure about the acidity aspect, but I find that by toasting or microwaving plastic wrapped bread for 20 seconds, the bread regains the original, silky, moist, mouth feel. When I toast, I do so with bread that is cut about 2 cm thick along the crust, then match the size and shape so that the crumb of both pieces are sandwiched together, and the crust is facing outward to maximize toasting. In this way, I get the cracker like crust with the steamy crumb of the freshly baked bread. My batards are very large, typically weight 1.7 to 1.8 kg, so I usually cut my bread into appropriate single, plastic wrapped, portions and freeze them.

[@staceyhelley3806]

Very cool! I like a sour loaf so I will try this on my next bake. My loaves are never as sour as I would like them, even tho I try all your suggestions. Everyone's microclimate is different.

[@christibustard2060]

After you are finished shaping your dough cover it and place it in the fridge for 48 hours. Not only will it be healthier because of the long fermentation process but it will have a nice sour tang

[@LettersAnNumbersOn1y]

Great idea definitely going to try this as it's the one thing I'm always struggling with! Thank you :)

[@rowantheauthor959]

How fascinating… I'm going to do it right now… I've got some in the oven, in fact two... If I take one out right now it's 30 minutes… You're amazing I love the detail and obsessive nature… Wonderful to learn from

[@AndrewStAngelo]

Noob questions: You mentioned that you "could have fermented the bread a bit longer". A) Why? B) During bulk fermentation or during proofing? One of the tips for increasing sourness that I've heard is to let your dough proof longer in the fridge (over 24 hrs), where the bacteria can work faster than the yeast. Avoiding concerns of hydration loss, this has worked for me (limited trials). I'm sure you have a video on this very subject; I'm new to your channel. Really good stuff!!!

[@skunkymule6993]

If you want to send your bread out you have to bake it the first time for waaaay less time! Das ist der Idee hinter tiefkühl Teiglinge. Die sind gerade so a gebacken dass sie ihren form behalten

[@JeffSmith-xd3ys]

Magnificent, so nerdy. Love it. Interpretation based on boiling off temps assumes no acid production after bread reaches 92 C. While possible, I suspect some fermentation occurs during cooling after the first bake. Danke schoen for calling attention to the wonders of bread baking. Gluten tag, Herr Hendrik

[@candisclaiborn9943]

Fascinating! I would love to see a follow-up on how we might use this to store bread longer. Can we freeze the partially baked bread, and if so, how do we finish the baking at a later time? Do we thaw it first, or bake from frozen, or what? Thank you!

[@the_bread_code]

Great comment! Yes. You can freeze it afterwards. I would let it come to room temperature over night and then bake it. I already previously baked a fully frozen dough and directly baked it. It worked quite good too. But freezing a parbaked though sounds much better.

[@katiehill8357]

You are SO MUCH FUN!😊✨ I love that you love to experiment, and I love what you choose to experiment- you are amazing. seriously. I cannot help myself from experimenting and the things you consider are so interesting to think about! I wish I could have a bite of that incredibly chewy sour bread! My favorite! Stay weird😉💕

[@the_bread_code]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@stefchica]

I'm trying this today!! making a batch of dough to try this. I love sourdough but mine isn't as sour as I'd like and I don't want to use the other flours ($) in order to get it that way, it's been successful in some other experiments. will check back in 2 days 😁.

[@WaywardCars]

Interesting experiment. I'm interested in freezing parbaked bread for later use, I wonder how that will affect the sourness? And what temp should the bread be baked to before cooling and freezing?

[@the_bread_code]

I think it will behave similar. Same temperature around 92C. 👌🏻

[@thepalacio]

Great video, as always! I can’t wait to try your liquid starter.

[@eErudius]

1:58 I'm seriously considering doing this for my farmer's market booth. Loaves that are finished at home.

[@simplybeautifulsourdough8920]

This really IS interesting! And now I am wondering if it accounts for the reason that breads I bake with starter straight from the fridge seem to be more sour than breads I make with freshly fed sourdough. I've wondered if I was crazy in detecting a difference, but now I'm thinking I may be more sane than I originally thought.

[@ktyty1244]

That is a very good information ! Thanks.

[@jamesallen8838]

Thank you. Great work. I LOVE tangy bread 🥖

[@gattamom]

At 7:34 You said “I am baking everything at Upper Bottom Heat”, top and bottom heat?

[@the_bread_code]

Yes sorry 👌🏻

[@gaborszabo9804]

Your crumb analysis (and memories of my past breads), especially the big air pocket under surface means too much heat, made me wonder: is there a guide on how to analyze crumb? What to look for, what indicates mistakes, etc. because so far I'm kind of winging it.

[@the_bread_code]

I'll take a note and make a separate video on the topic 😎

[@gaborszabo9804]

@@the_bread_code you're the best

[@bunhelsingslegacy3549]

I've done this a couple of times now where I make two loaves, bake one fully (40 min covered, 20 min uncovered at 425-450F) and the other partially and then brown it later when we've nearly finished the first loaf, and have noticed no difference in sourness between the two... but more than likely there are a few different factors at play. I'm sure my loaves rarely get past about 92C, although I've stopped checking the temperature of my loaves now that I've figured out how long to set my timers to get a cooked loaf, I never got a reading past about 90 even after an hour in the oven, then again I have never checked the accuracy of that thermometer other than that when I use it for meat, the doneness seems appropriate for the temperatures I get.

[@the_bread_code]

Wow. I think mine go up to 95ish 😎

[@barrychambers4047]

Perhaps your oven isn't hot enough? It shouldn't take 1 hour of bake time. Typical core temperature on my loaves are 96C after 40-45 minutes of 450F

[@bunhelsingslegacy3549]

@@barrychambers4047 Anything's possible, I know not to trust the oven thermostat but there's nothing saying my separate oven thermometer isn't accurate. And I mistyped, 30 minutes covered, not 40. I go closer to 425 than 450 cause I find the bottom crust too tough when the oven's too hot. But even when I was doing 20 covered, 20 uncovered at 450 and getting tough crusts and still never got the 98c bread is supposed to be, according to my meat thermometer or my candy thermomenter (I do know the candy thermometer reads a bit high). Only time I had an underdone loaf was recently, when I didn't start wtih a cold oven and failed to preheat my pizza stone sufficiently. (and omg I hate that I use Farenheit and Celsius in the same sentence, ack the trials and tribulations of being Canadian)

[@barrychambers4047]

@@bunhelsingslegacy3549 Gotcha! If your bottom crust gets too tough and browned try taking it out of the dutch oven and put it on the rack only, turning the oven down to just 400F. You could even move the rack up toward the top of the oven. Just a thought.

[@shanti34567]

I love a really sour bread. Difficult to achieve on a reliable basis. I will try twice baking but not at such a high hydration. My sweet spot is around 70 to 75 %. I bake in a Romertopf clay baker that gives consistent and amazing results.

[@rlwalker2]

PLEASE use a black pen, rather than blue, on your white board. It is probably age related, but I have difficulty reading that blue color and black would make the detail pop. Aside from my whining, what changes could I make when making bread using my standard recipe (about 60-70% hydration although it has gotten wetter from time to time). Your bread had a very high hydration. Would I need to increase that in my bread or can the double bake method be used with any bread dough?

[@the_bread_code]

Gotcha! Thank you!

[@simplybeautifulsourdough8920]

As for your question about the double-bake method, it can be used in any dough. 🙂

[@adamdavis40208]

It feels like my loaves get more sour after sitting on the counter as well. Day 1 fresh out of the oven: not so sour at all. Day 3 after chilling in a bread bag: Heyyy it's actually sourdough.

[@barrychambers4047]

I concur with your day 2 and 3 extra sourness!

[@MePancholi]

Agreed also. Also if I freeze bread and use it a couple days later. It definitely is more sour after a couple of days.

[@Phil58Liew]

I do notice that after a few days when toasting the slices the sour notes are higher. I guess this is where more moisture is evaporated off and the concentration of acidity increases. Correct?

[@the_bread_code]

Yes 🤗

[@tamask]

I wonder what would happen if you didn't bake it to 92 °C, but only to a lower temperature, where the texture more or less solidifies, but it's not fully baked yet. Then, let it sit and ferment more for a day or two, and then finish baking. I would try this, I just don't have a thermometer yet to measure the internal temperature. Maybe later...

[@journeytohealthafter60]

You had me at...."Maybe I'm a WEIRDO" !!! Hahahahaha 😂😂 love it... Can't wait to laugh n learn more from YOU! Keep being a weirdo!

[@cyuen9177]

One more question: I used Guava that I grew to make fruit water starter, the sourness is very light, do I need to use stiff starter? Also, can I convert my fruit water starter into liquid starter to get the dairy note?

[@the_bread_code]

Should work the same way 👍

[@alanhirschman1320]

Hey, first comment!! Cool! Nice presentation, and as an ex-engineer I appreciate it. However, I and my entire family prefer my bread to have less sour taste, so I will not be trying this technique. What about the age and stage of the starter and its effect on the sourness of the final bread?

[@mattymattffs]

Here's a couple tips to reduce the sour notes. Based on my experience, so YMMV. 1. Use a dry starter. Something more like a biga. 50g water, 100g flour. That ratio. It is, in my experience, a lot less sour. 2. Use less starter. Instead of 10-15%, I only use 5ish. This means a slower longer bulk, and I've just found it to be less sour 3. Don't use your starter at peak. Counter common advice, but I use it early if I just fed, like after an hour or two when it just started growing (stiff starter is slower in my experience), or before you feed it, i.e. use the discard. This also makes lazy overnight loaves easier. All of this combined has resulted in less sour loaves that we enjoy more overall. Don't get a crazy crumb either. Good open, but no huge pockets usually, so no jam falling through!

[@the_bread_code]

Great comment. I'll share some details in my next video 👌🏻. Based on this technique, if you bake longer it should also be less sour 🤗

[@happypiper7669]

Interesting. What pH are you looking for to consider the fermentation done? Does it differ from what kind of bread you're making? For example ryebread vs country bread with mostly white wheat flour.

[@telldpablo]

I’m going to try this next! 🥰

[@cyuen9177]

Good morning. I'm from HK. I have a question about the oven temperature. I heated up my oven to 230C but after I opened the oven and took the stone out, and then open the oven again to put stone with dough back in, pour hot water into the bowl and close the oven door, the oven temperature dropped. Oven temperature is always lowered with steam. Is it OK for the oven temperature to drop below 230C? If not, how do you address this issue? Thanks

[@paulwarren6062]

So you're saying acetic acid needs oxygen? I keep my starter in the fridge with a lid on. Does this mean my starter lacks oxygen and that I should instead leave it uncovered in order to get those vinegary notes?

[@Jahloveipraise]

I’m going to give this a shot as I love super tangy bread. Did you bake the par bake at the same temp you cooked it with steam? I was gonna toss it back in next day at around 230c for like 10-20 mins. I’ve also seen people adding steam during the par bake as well so idk if you would recommend that

[@the_bread_code]

Par bake same temperature yep. That sounds good!

[@yonason6047]

Personally, I prefer my bread sour. Not only is it more delicious (to me), but I can eat more without feeling bloated, leaving me more satisfied. Your “theory” is also satisfying 😁. I would only suggest one additional point. While I know that the yeast will die long before 200 deg F, will any of the bacteria survive? If so, perhaps they could continue to produce acidity until the final bake, especially if the customer doesn’t bake the bread immediately on receipt. (You did say that at 200 deg., F the bread is done, so I’m probably wrong, but I’m curious if you know at what Temp the bacteria succumb.) ASIDE - I used to employ the “Artisan Bread In 5 Minutes A Day” method, using yeast of course. Once I tried it using my sourdough starter, and when I went to make a loaf a few days after the initial prep., I found the dough a puddle of goo. I knew that sourdough degrades the gluten, but I hoped it wasn’t that fast in the fridge. Sadly, that “experiment” drove the point home only too well. I hope you solve the problem, if you haven’t by now.

[@dfhepner]

Have you repeated this test a few times? Have you done this with lower hydration bread? I have dough in the refrigerator now so will give this a try. I am also beginning to believe that my stater doesn’t have any AAB but just LAB

[@the_bread_code]

Yep. I can confirm this works for all hydrations. Though generally lower hydration doesn't get so sour anyways as far as I can tell. The lower hydration makes the yeast more active rather than the bacteria.

[@dfhepner]

@@the_bread_code I was talking about the hydration of the bread dough. I tried the par bake with a cool down. I may have gotten a little more sour flavor but not sure. The bread turned out moister than other bakes. It is was about 70% hydration and 13% protein bread flour.

[@michelleotani8901]

Hi! I have been baking sourdough bread from starter ever since the start of the pandemic, but I can never get it to taste sour! I tried your experiment hoping I would finally get a sour loaf but did not🙁, I even keep the dough in the fridge for 2 days before doing the first bake. My starter does smell sour , but less sour after I feed it…..help!

[@mattymattffs]

One thing I've noticed with parbaked loaves is that they always shrink. My loaf gets pulled at around 95ish C, which takes about 30m, but still I get a shrink

[@the_bread_code]

Can you try to parbake another 5 minutes more? Should help 👍

[@barrychambers4047]

To me, the crumb seems gummy and without the usual elasticity that bread should have.

[@me-MulberryRootsDecor]

do you think i could bake the first half (20 min) then freeze it for later use? baking for 25 more min at a later date?

[@cmitchvillafania3321]

Please try a chocolate sourdough recipe

[@Sue670408]

How long do you wait to second bake?

[@voidremoved]

What if your bread had started to rot? If you are using whole grain, it could be starting to rot? If the loaf is exposed to temperature changes, like from your warm home, then if it goes outside to the post office, it could get cold and then warm up again. Maybe it cools down in the mail mans mail bag? and then it heats up again at the customers home... The temperature change could cause moisture. the moisture could cause bad bacteria to grow... kind of like rot? Kind of like if you started out with rotting grain, it has bad bacteria and that will make the bread seem very sour, like dry out your mouth kind of sour? strip enamel off your teeth sour? Anyway thats just my thought. I like to think of the worst possible case.

[@bartoszdoega3804]

Hmm, my thinking is that it is not necessarily evaporation of acidity ingredients but maybe survival of the bacteria that produces acidity after first bake. Just thinking.

[@angiekrajewski6419]

I think that baking twice could correspond like putting the bread in the fridge all night and bake it the next day . Which means that the bacterias had time to slowly develop while I the grudge all night proofing . I think it is like baking it twice as diyefiugh is vo cernes. The only void thing about it is that the customers has the impression that they made the bread by baking it in their oven and it will taste very good like sourdough bread should.. Picard does the same procedure. But theirs is not organic and isn’t made with sourdough.. but freeing the dough half way cooked is an freezer idea also..

[@shekharpatel]

Science says … Flour does not evaporate. Acids don’t boil off. A small amount of alcohol is produced, some of it is converted to acetic acid, rest of anlcohol simply boils off. Only the outer surfaces loose acids because temperature above 100 degree C (hence the browning). Rest of the dough is water logged and temperature remains under 100 C. The increase in the acidity will be directly proportional to the loss of water from heat induced evaporation. The weight difference is between 12-15% of the total weight of the dough. I would suggest the following experiment. Add 5 ml vinegar to 100 ml of water, and also to 85 ml of water in separate containers. Essentially making 5% vinegar and 4.25% vinegar solutions. Taste both. Can you perceive the taste difference? I cannot, both solutions are equally sour to me.

[@Hippo1251985]

Just a question on the method you are using in this video for baking. You put another tray on top the bread/ oven to keep the steam nearer to the bread. Is that tray preheated or is it cold when you put the bread in the oven?

[@the_bread_code]

Yep! Tray is not preheated :-)

[@Hippo1251985]

@@the_bread_code ahh, that makes sense, it also protects the bread top from the full heat at the start. When do you take it out, after 10-20 minutes/ when you release the steam?

[@kevinbundschuh5932]

Bread from my white flour starter is mild, where bread from my whole wheat starter is very robust.

[@BastianHodapp]

How about feeding your starter with some sort of soda? The coke bread, upgraded :D

[@the_bread_code]

Great idea :-D

[@11STANE11]

audio goes up and down few times in the video. is it just me?

[@the_bread_code]

Sorry!

[@11STANE11]

​@@the_bread_code no need to apologize :D great video btw Glad the audio fixable ;)

[@feliksdz4208]

OK, I've made a dozen loaves of sourdough until I found TheBreadCode-The-Sourdough-Framework Twice baked is the BEST I've ever tasted Double your recipe (like 1000g bread flour to 700g water and 200g starter and 22g salt) to make two loaves Bake the first in your Dutch Oven at 450 for 30 minutes, then remove and let it rest on a grate while you bake the second after preheating again Then bake the first uncovered for 15-20 minutes and then the second VERY nice sourdough flavor, the acid doesn't boil off It's a very blond crust but that is my preference, why burn your bread?

[@GlassArtist07]

Very interesting experiment! Leave it to a German engineer to explore the hidden implications in sourdough bread! . I'd be curious about simply lowering the baking temperature, so as not to boil off as much of the acidic molecules - but soon I think I'll try this experiment, possibly with a more "normal" hydration. I do prefer sourdough bread that has a distinct tang to it, and this just might help reliably produce it.

[@arifrankel9851]

It’s interesting that Food Geek found that the longer he let the bread sit between par bake and full bake, the more sour flavor the bread took on. What do you think is going on there? Is water continuing to evaporate between bakes?

[@Jan46]

You look so serious! it's almost kind of scary!😬😬😂

[@billie6399]

sourdough springroll?

[@lsieu]

We love Sourdough because it is (or, now I know, it can be) sour.

[@jamesthomas1628]

FWIW, I would not put much confidence in the experimental method used. The test (only 1) was not blind and not repeated. That is, testing with many samples without knowing which was being tasted is required for there to be valid result.

[@geegaw1535]

The volume is low Thank you for the information and expertise you have Love your hat King Henry the 8th found a hair in his meal. He had his chef decapitated...everyone after that wore the chef's hat. LoL, history. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[@the_bread_code]

LOL

[@geegaw1535]

@@the_bread_code ❤🙋🏼‍♀️

[@johnrobertson1]

Just a random note, but that sound effect at 4:02 and 4:47 is really jarring on headphones. Scared the hell out of me. Hah.

[@ej732]

That explains why my toasted bread tastes sourer than right off the loaf

[@emilyantiqua]

Wooo

[@doublewyde420]

Google translated your comment and it still said wooo. I. So glad your excitement transcends Google language barriers🤣

[@emilyantiqua]

@@doublewyde420 happiness for bread knows no bounds

[@cachi-7878]

Hendrik, couple of points I’d like to make- -your pH meter is probably not designed to measure correctly solid foods. I wouldn’t put too much faith in those readings but rather taste the bread as you did. Your taste buds are a better gauge. -you mentioned you like your sourdough pretty sour and that’s fine but if you are setting up a business, you will probably want to listen to your customers. You can bake sourdough bread that is actually not sour at all. There are many examples in the US of bakeries doing just that and their bread is delicious. You will need to modify your starter and fermentation schedule to achieve this.

[@the_bread_code]

Valid point! Should also have measured it in a few other places and taken the average :-). Thanks!

[@hu_b]

Actually the pH meter product page says it's designed for solid/semi-solid foods

[@CryptoSurfer]

Did you say you were a “weir dough”? Lol