Long Range Lora Antenna From Paradar - This is huge!

[@TechMindsOfficial]

Frequently Asked Questions Q1: Does the length of coax effect signal loss. A1: Yes, at these frequencies loss is much greater than sub 30 MHz. However, the calculated loss with the type of coax I am using and the length used is around 0.6dB. So it's marginal. Q2: What type of coax are you using? A2: I am using Formula Zero, equivalent to Westflex 103 Q3: Blah Blah Blah Downtilt. A3: No idea that you are on about, but the angle of radiation is 8 degrees vertical and 360 degree omni, please look at the specs on the website for more info. Q4: Is the antenna too close to the other on the mast A4: Its known that antennas should be at least a 1/4 wave apart on the lowest frequency. The other antennas lower frequency is 145MHz, so around 50cm. So it's borderline but do plan to move it soon. Q5: Will the other antenna de-sense the 868 antenna if transmitting. A5: Possibly if I was transmitting high power on UHF. However, personally, I don't use that antenna for transmit very often. Q6: Using something else "blah blah" is better than self amalgamating tape. A6: I am using what the antenna manufacturer recommended. Although I will consider changing this when I move the antenna. Q7: With that much gain is it making it illegal to use in the uk. A7: ERP at the full 22dBm from the node would be over 1 Watt, so yes it would be. However, we can limit the power output in meshtastic. Remember that I mentioned I will use this antenna for other projects, not just meshtastic. Q8: How do you handle lighting protection? A8: I don't, but if I was worried about this then I would most likely buy a lightening arrester to go inline, however this would add loss. Q9: How does this antenna have so much gain. A9: It has a 16-element collinear dipole inside. Please do NOT reply to this pinned comment, ask new questions below. Thanks Matt.

[@GaryWerbisky]

I got 80 miles to the isle of man with the supplied antenna that came with my heltec v3 . . . . .

[@ethzero]

Currently got a loft installed Paradar 12.5 dBi Yagi pointing at TechMind's nodes some 20'ish km away and work very nicely 👍 Tried a 8.5 dbi Paradar omni before and while rx'ing was improved, transmitting was miss-more-than-hit. That's now hooked up to an additional node that servers the local Buckingham area.

[@MidlifeRenaissanceMan]

Something to take into consideration up 800-900MHz is your SWR will read better because the loss of the reflected power in your transmission line. SWR is proportional to the reflected power at the point of measurement. If you’re losing 3dB return trip at the test frequency, then your SWR will be lower. To get the true SWR, you need to measure that at the base of the antenna, or, if you don’t want to climb a ladder, you can calibrate the transmission line out You can also measure the loss of your cable by measuring S22 log mag on the NanoVNA

[@TechMindsOfficial]

Already done personally, but a very good point for others to know about. Not just 800 to 900 MHz, all frequency ranges can be effected with the type of coax feeder that's being used, but higher frequencies can most certainly be affected more. I know this from when I designed my 2.4GHz amplifier and QO100 uplink gear. I did read the SWR directly to a network analyzer before installing the antenna, and it was around 1.3.

[@MidlifeRenaissanceMan]

@@TechMindsOfficial have you got a video on the 2.4GHz ? There is so much cool stuff that’s available to play with in the microwave bands. I was watching some videos by some fellow Aussies who have managed to get a $30 radar module working on 122GHz. Me, I ordered some Haltec units. One for 915 and one for 433. Curious to see how popular Meshtastic on 433MHz is. Got a few 70cm band options to try.

[@TechMindsOfficial]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZzJfKmffq9pgJo

[@MidlifeRenaissanceMan]

@@TechMindsOfficial wow. I missed this. Last year I didn’t do as much radio. Spent much more time with a guitar in my hand. Trying to balance both….and keep the renovations on the house progressing. Got to keep the minister for finance, entertainment and shoes happy. :-)

[@BillAnt]

When using an external antenna and coax, the most importing thing is to tune it as close as possible to the magical 1.0 SWR, otherwise received and transmitted power is wasted. Oh, and it also makes a great lightning arrester. ;D

[@VideoColServices]

Cool, i was wondering what to do with my old helium setup which includes this antenna and coax, I may as well throw a node onto the system, I’m 200m ASL in Shropshire.

[@TechMindsOfficial]

Awesome! It should work well with 200m ASL!

[@paulizz]

Wow was chuffed to See my Node Seaker101 in Bedford, I assume your node is MATT? I have three node, Pole1 (temporarily slung in the loft, like you I don't like ladders either so waiting for son-inlaw to install . I have Window1 taped to the window. And Seaker101 is now my mobile node for car and hill tops. My pole is not up yet and I already have pole envy :)

[@TechMindsOfficial]

Awesome! We really need a static repeater at Dunstable!

[@paulizz]

@@TechMindsOfficial Was that map filmed on a Sunday Morning Feb 24th by chance? I had Seaker101 up on a 9M telescopic pole at that time

[@ethzero]

Spotted your Seeker101 and somebody else's DB01 node all the way other in Buckingham, mostly likely via the Aylesbury mesh. 👍

[@paulizz]

I was up at Dunstable Downs Last Sunday Afternoon with the Node on the end of a 8M pole :) @@ethzero

[@Mike-H_UK]

Are you Paul Djp Pressure? Just trying to correlate Facebook & KZbin...

[@choppergirl]

I bought a bunch of 11dbi high gain antennas for my 5ghz WW-DRT wifi client bridges... and when I swapped them in for the stock 2dbi antennas bundled by the manufacturer, the 2dbi antennas ended up working just as good or even better. So I sent the 11dbi antennas back and got my money back. So never assume something is working and test the before and after by looking at an actual signal strength measurement in whatever radio software you are using wit one antenna, then the other. Once you find the best, then experiment (further) with tweaking aiming and location.

[@Stuart_MM7SHX]

It might help with longevity to apply a layer of of UV resistant PVC insulating tape over the self amalgamating tape.

[@johnrobertson8445]

Had one of these for helium mining. Try checking the SWR of just the top half. 😉

[@allenshepard7992]

Great video and looking forward to the Yagi's performance.

[@TechMindsOfficial]

Thanks!

[@davidholman2536]

I think I'll make a quarter wave ground plane antenna for under a fiver first, Matt. Welding wire and a panel mount BNC socket make a resonant antenna fit for a try out 73 de David M0YDH

[@TechMindsOfficial]

Home made antennas are best :) more satisfying when they work :) cheers matey.

[@XRinger]

I live in the hilly hills and dells north of Boston MA. My 9 dbi antenna is up 30 feet from my 190 feet ASL. On the same Tower, I've got a 1090 plane tracker 9ish dbi that can hear planes out to 150 miles. Unless they are flying low, like when landing in Canada. It's line of sight only. My recommendation is not to use highest gain antenna, IF you have a great location, up high. Your LoRa signal pattern (very flattened donut) will pass overhead of any nodes in the local area. But might be good, for distant nodes in high locations. The mobile node in the pocket of someone inside a building a few miles away, might not hear enough signal.

[@mscir]

Interesting. Nice setup you have.

[@salat]

Do you transmit with the other old antenna at all? I'd be afraid of frying the input of the LoRa device..

[@androidbox3571]

You need to add a few layers of tightly wrapped quality (3M) vinyl tape on top of the self amalgamating tape. This compresses the amalgamating tape creating a water proof seal & protection against the elements.

[@norm_sueb122]

Thanks for the video!!

[@rEdf196]

I recently monitored the 915 MHz (for US and Canada) here at Port Alberni BC Vancouver Island Canada using my RTL SDR and a small homemade tuned 1/4 wave ground plane and 2 feet of LMR 400 with RTL dongle high up with the antenna 10 feet above my porch. it is packed with twice as many signals, much to my surprize. I just ordered my new T-Echo and accessories still in shipment. I saw these 30 inch or higher oversized LoRa whip antennas at the Rocklands website catalogue. I was kinda skeptical of its capabilities being so big like a conventional 27 MHz CB antenna. I may look into these high gain omni antennas in the future.

[@christianknight2905]

Where you actually picking up mesh signals or just 900mhz stuff in general? Could you decode it?

[@x_CrossHair_x]

A Turbo Antenna setup would be a (Quad phased Antenna Array) 4 of those Yagi's individually Pointing (North / South / East / West) 💪(You May possibly receive Nodes From France😊😊)

[@mscir]

Well done.

[@training2523]

With such long antenna I always wonder what about lighting protection? ⚡

[@Sinnn777]

Love the bass boutique - (history of) Jungle shirt/hoodie

[@TechMindsOfficial]

You are the FIRST person EVER to notice! 🤛

[@Sinnn777]

I bought the same hoddie a couple of years ago ... I would be interested know what you listen to bass music on :) @@TechMindsOfficial

[@jacko101]

The two antennas are close together, if you transmit on one will it blow up the Meshtastic node?

[@pcfreak1992]

That would be my concern as well. I mean it depends on the power of the other transceiver, a few watts is probably fine?

[@TechMindsOfficial]

Not at all. The other antenna is for 145MHz, 430MHz and 1200 MHz. If I was going to use that antenna with high power then I might consider turning my node off, but it won’t be an issue.

[@G7FDN]

I am picking you up in south Dunstable all the time but unable to get back but then I am using a smaller antenna than you maybe I need to instal some thing similar to you

[@TechMindsOfficial]

I guess thats the draw back when having a larger antenna. It like if someone runs a linear amp, everyone can hear them but they cant hear anyone else. Well, kind of.. Hopefully you'll be able to make it to our mesh soon. Cheers

[@paaao]

Use bandpass filters to cut out RF noise. Especially with good antennas at high locations. This will drastically improve your range. Also LMR400 or better is a must if you're antenna requires more than a foot or two of coax cable. Also the industry standard for tape of any type to water proof is to create a staircase style wrap. From top to bottom, then without breaking, go from lower bottom to higher top. If you're short on tape, do at least one clean run without breaks from bottom to top so water beads can flow down and off like roof shingles.

[@eliotmansfield]

there’s a number of us in newport pagnell - but we are in a bit of a dip unfortunately

[@TechMindsOfficial]

Defo need something inbetween. I believe there are things in motion to hopefully bridge some locations.

[@johnshares444]

Bedankt zos gaat door

[@sUASNews]

Time for a change in thinking if meshing, rather buy 4 nodes and distribute them between friends in town on hills if you can.

[@donbunson5031]

These nodes I hope will become cheap enough for them to be paired with a solar panel and placed on hilltops and high points.

[@chublez]

​@@donbunson5031 They are.

[@TechMindsOfficial]

@sUASNews Yep, just one node set as a repeater at a really high location will feed a decent area.

[@HillTreks]

Are you thinking of trying 433MHz? I've got a 5 element yagi pointing your way. I'm in Welwyn Garden City so it might be possible

[@TechMindsOfficial]

Yep, I tried but it but not pick up any nodes. Although I only tried it in "ham mode" where the encryption is turned off. Is your 433 node in ham mode?

[@TechMindsOfficial]

What freq? Default? Ham mode? Vertical polarisation?

[@HillTreks]

@@TechMindsOfficial I've set the T-Beam to Ham mode on Long / Fast. The node name is VDTX an my call sign is G0VDT. I'm using a 9 dB gain. I'm going to to some range these today.

[@jamesemery1]

using this antenna without reducing the TX power of the node will take you above the legal transmission power of secondary users of the ism band

[@gianlucabelgrado3624]

Do you know any manufacturer that sells similar antennas but for radiosonde frequencies? I find only for Lora and adsb

[@TechMindsOfficial]

I guess that would be around 400 MHz. You could try searching for UHF or 70cm antennas and see if they go that low. Ive used my home tri-band antenna for receiving Radiosonde for a while now and get excellent coverage over the south of the UK with it. The other option would be to make a simple 1/4 Wave Ground Plane antenna for the exact frequency.

[@NeptuneSega]

Instead of the ugly tape you can use heat shrink tuning that has a sealant built in. They are removable too as the sealant int hard to get off when done purposefully

[@Edson_online]

How do you handle lighting protection on something like this?

[@oherrala]

I'd recommend checking your local building code / guidelines how to install terrestial TV/radio antenna. Lightning protection should be included in such document.

[@helijim]

I'm struggling to see how a vertical antenna can have any gain over an isotropic antenna. Maybe it's my lack of knowledge.but I am curious.

[@Mike-H_UK]

The radiation patten is flattened. Instead of looking like a doughnut, it looks more like a pineapple slice!!! So, there is more energy at the level of the antenna.

[@daveys]

If you look carefully when he’s going through the spec sheet, it’s a 13 element co-linear.

[@helijim]

@@daveysPerfect! That's the type of thing I was after. Thank you.

[@chuckcrizer]

I didn't see any wind loading data. At over 7FT that doesn't look like a very strong mounting point.

[@TechMindsOfficial]

I have an update video coming soon that you might find interesting.. :-)

[@norm_sueb122]

What crank mast did you use?

[@TechMindsOfficial]

It’s just a “cranked” pole, as seen in the video when he climbs up the ladder. It wasn’t planned to use it that way, but the antenna installed didn’t bring a long enough pole for it to go above the roof line, so, we installed it like this. Luckily I had some spare mast clamps to clamp the two masts together. Cheers

[@daveys]

1:21 - Surely those two antennas are detuning each other?

[@TechMindsOfficial]

Nope.

[@daveys]

@@TechMindsOfficial - No effect on your 145MHz one from the LoRa one at all? Maybe they just look closer together than they actually are.

[@Mike-H_UK]

With approx. +22dBm output from the transmitter and +11.5dBi of antenna gain relative to an isotropic radiator, doesn't this place you above the +27dBm ERP level for 868MHz Meshtastic? Be good and if you can't be good, be careful!

[@TechMindsOfficial]

In theory i could actually lower the output power with the node if it becomes an issue. However, considering there is some complete tool about to start selling rf amplifiers for Lora, do you think they care?

[@Mike-H_UK]

@@TechMindsOfficial Then I imagine another complete tool will combine the high gain antenna with the RF amplifier. Where do you draw the line if not at the legal limit? Tough one... especially as I'm also slightly illegal with an +8.5dBi omni Paradar, albeit in the loft.

[@TechMindsOfficial]

@Mike-H_UK I have a very strong feeling that individual was testing amp and high gain antenna a couple of days ago... 8.5 paradar in the loft is a perfect setup. I ran a small 5 dbi amazon antenna in the loft for months which worked really well. I just wanted something outside so I can test my other projects I am working on, like FLARM and OGN. Cheers

[@Mike-H_UK]

@@TechMindsOfficial It will be interesting to hear how you get on with the big omnidirectional Paradar. It has almost the same gain as the Paradar Yagi (12.5dBi) while being omnidirectional in the azimuth. Presumably it has a fairly flattened radiation pattern, but I don't see this being. disadvantage for most locations.

[@TechMindsOfficial]

@@Mike-H_UK 8 degrees I think the specs said, but I'm only around 100m ASL and surrounded by hills. So it should be okay. So fay so good! Testing FLARM earlier and had some great distant decodes, but then again they are transmitting from the clouds lol.. Cheers

[@psychonauthacker]

Will this be a quality antenna for 915 MHz?

[@TechMindsOfficial]

I’m pretty sure the specs says it covers 915, but I didn’t check the swr at 915. Next time I turn off my node I’ll check it.

[@psychonauthacker]

@@TechMindsOfficial I really appreciate it thank you. I live in Springfield Oregon Us and I'm trying to get a small Network set up here. My son my wife and myself have been using the metastatic Lora with a fair amount of success, we are the only three in a very large area. My friends are too bougie to use something subcellular or alternative I guess.

[@psychonauthacker]

Just out of curiosity are you aware of any technology that would allow us to use Wi-Fi connections as nodes. Seems like a good idea and probably just a matter of software. I've been messing with sideband and if we could get Wi-Fi routers to work as nodes that would be fantastic.

[@zazugee]

coolinears are cool

[@1kc1981]

Why don't they supply a waterproof join. Its like selling faulty equipment

[@eliotmansfield]

it’s very common to put self amalgamating tape on antenna joints

[@XRinger]

They don't tell you the N Connectors have rubber gaskets to keep the insides dry, and the sun will dry out the connector shell. If you tighten them up properly. But, where the coax goes into the connector, has a thin rubber gasket around the cable, that's not always water proof. So, additional waterproofing is a very good idea.

[@1kc1981]

@@eliotmansfield I know but you don't buy a car then tape all the windows up incase they leak. At the price of these antennas they should supply something

[@IndependentNewsMedia]

God bless.

[@NikoSan713]

This co-colinéar antenna is good for summit not for low altitude ! the radiation pattern goes downward on this antenna with a lot of gain, in the configuration of a flat area your waves go with gain into the ground rather than towards the horizon! the performance is not at its maximum what is possible with this antenna on a plain

[@TechMindsOfficial]

Please provide more information, such as a link to a plot which shows this.

[@NikoSan713]

@@TechMindsOfficial This is part of my hamradio license. the more elements an antenna co-collinear has, the more gain it has up to a certain limit where adding elements no longer brings anything concrete. and the more the electromagnetic radiation angle of the antenna will have a negative downward angle. Yes it works in town but not to the maximum of what it is capable of, it is optimal at altitude at the top of a mount for example for a relay. an antenna simulator like MMana-gal for example allows you to observe this effect virtually. 73' F4JPC

[@JakeBullit123]

That's an expensive antenna.

[@mikesradiorepair]

Buy a commercial grade antenna. Last two Station Master colinear antennas I got were over $1,600 each and that is cheap. If I had bought Sinclair Technologies antennas with the same gain they range from $5,000 to $6,000.

[@CezarySiw]

I guess you're making it a little bit illegal since you're adding 11dBi of power (the regulations mention 25mW of ERP power)

[@TechMindsOfficial]

If you are in the UK then it's 500mW E.R.P with < 10% Duty Cycle. Not for all Lora, but for the frequency used by Meshtastic in UK and Europe. Page 17 of this document: www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0028/84970/ir-2030.pdf

[@ethzero]

I think that's where the confusion lies: LoRa and Meshtastic are commonly known as 868 MHz applications but as TechMinds cites, for the EU_868 region plan but *very specifically* for the actual channel frequency that's used for LONG_FAST that comes out as 869.525 that sits in the middle'ish of the tight 500mW allocation. This can be verified on Meshtastic documentation site under "Frequency Slot Calculator"

[@steveparkes]

100mW in the portion of the band used for Meshtastic and a few other things.

[@CezarySiw]

@@TechMindsOfficial fair enough. Just bear in mind that an SX1262 based device can output 22dBm and combining that with 11dBi antenna gives already over 1W ERP

[@TechMindsOfficial]

@@CezarySiw Fully aware of ERP, had to do all the calculations when deciding whether to mount the node at the base or via coax. Around 0.6dB loss in the cable, but still over 1 Watt ERP. Cheers

[@petechongy]

This is bad info do not run long runs of coax as we are dealing with signals in the noise floor so the tiniest bit of coax loss and bye bye distant nodes as for high gain antenna will overcome this errr no not with the way lora works it's better to install with zero coax and a smaller gain antenna especially for ppl lower down.

[@michaelkaliski7651]

Up to 10 metres of low loss coax is probably fine at 868MHz. This isn’t that far away from digital TV signals in terms of frequency and they work with far longer coax runs, although usually with a higher gain directional antenna. The signals will be horizon limited with the transmit power and antenna gain in any case. So this setup is entirely reasonable if you want the equipment indoors for easy access and weather protection.

[@TechMindsOfficial]

@peterchongy You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about or even listened to what i said in my video. If i was going for a static node with no other use for the antenna then I would have mounted at the base, but as I will use this antenna for other projects I needed to use ultra low low coax. I actually used Westflex 103. If you’re so smart go and do the calculations and you’ll see the losses are marginal with a high gain antenna like this.

[@petechongy]

Your fully wrong I'm a broadcast engineer and know what I'm talking about I've done testing and even a few meters of whatever coax will kill your distance nodes from being received we are using 120mw RF output power not 100kw TV where a long run of 30m is nothing try that with meshtastic and you receive nothing so next time stop giving bad info out to ppl who don't know any better.

[@TechMindsOfficial]

@petechongy I really hope you are not an broadcast engineer any longer. In your first comment you said its bad to do long runs of coax. you also said "few meters of whatever coax". Well, I agree, using thin coax would be pointless, but the coax I used is designed for these kind of losses in mind. I dont think I mentioned in my video as to how long the coax was, but it's around 5 meters from antenna base to rear of my node. I agree that really long runs would be bad. However... As you can't be bothered to work it out, he's the details. There is 0.613 dB loss @ 869 MHz with 5 Meters of the coax that I used. Assuming my node is outputting it's full potential of 22dBm, you can now work out the E.R.P of the 11.5 dBi gain antenna shown in the video. You're welcome! If you continue to spurt out absolute shite, I will remove your comments.

[@James-k2c9k]

​@petechongy probably a BBC diversity hire...