Terrible Trains: Britain's worst rolling stock allocation

Britain has many, many classes of trains, and lots of them were designed with the routes they operate in mind. But not all of them. Indeed, there are some routes where the trains that operate them are so terrible that they really need a video being made on them... and here it is! The trains in question are:
-The Class 360s on London St Pancras to Corby (EMR)
-The Class 165/166s on Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour and the Westbury lines (GWR)
-The Class 387s on London King's Cross to Cambridge (Great Northern/GTR)
Discord: / discord
Credits:
Music: The Monuments and Tunnels in Goa and Hampi - Bail Bonds
Photography:
Me
Keuneke, CC BY-SA 4.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Peter Broster, CC BY 2.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
CoastwayWill, CC BY-SA 4.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Nigel Cox / Borehamwood: Midland mainline railway
Superalbs, CC BY-SA 4.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
PeterSkuce, CC BY-SA 4.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Transpennine Express
Rcsprinter123, CC BY 3.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Ron Hann / Oxford.
Hugh Llewelyn, CC BY-SA 2.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
kitmasterbloke, CC BY 2.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
train_photos, CC BY-SA 2.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
HHM, CC BY-SA 4.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
PeterSkuce, CC BY-SA 4.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
mattbuck (category), CC BY-SA 2.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
If you would like and further information regarding which photos are from which person then please contact me.
#transport #rollingstock #trains

[@whiterose.5684]

As a regular user of the Salisbury to Bristol service since c1980, I miss the Class 33 hauling mk1 coaches for comfort.

[@OscarOSullivan]

Multiple Units or Railcars as we call them in Ireland are great on short routes but terrible on intercity duties. Coaches have the advantage of being able to added and removed as desired.

[@fluggaenkoecchicebolsen]

Ok grandad. I miss houses costing £20,000. I miss paying 79p for a litre of 4 star at my local Fina, I miss shopping at Gateway. The world has to move on sometime

[@elizabetharas5748]

@@fluggaenkoecchicebolsen Now that's just salty.

[@mr.atomic2970]

A simple rule never hate on that what the BR build and allways hate on that what was build after the Privatisation.

[@LenH_Transport_Plus]

I have been on 166s countless times from Bath to Cardiff, and I find them rather comfortable and pleasant. However, if they are not in a 3+2 configuration, they can be overpacked. 158s are slightly more comfortable, yet I prefer 166s and if GWR got a move on with refurbishment they would be even better. 175's are good trains and could probably move to GWR after TFW put their 197's in service.

[@ashleyjiscool]

As a person who has been on a 166 I agree

[@Ron_TTE]

Traisn are allways designed for 2+2 config. You can see on the c2c 357s, the walkway is marked with 2 lines. Which the 3rd seat overlaps. This is dangerouse ss if someone passes out, the ambulance cant pick them out and has to pull them out by their legs.

[@joshuaritchie3836]

@Train's 🚆 They 165 & 166 are not cleared west of Plymouth.

[@joshuaritchie3836]

@@Ron_TTE Trains are not always designed for 2 + 2 seating for example some of the British Rail Class 499's did not have 2 + 2 seating.

[@joshuaritchie3836]

@Train's 🚆 You have more capacity with 2+2 than with 2+3 seating.

[@zepic9093]

Worst one is the use of Class 345 as their lack of toilets, bins and the worlds hardest seats on long distances from reading to central london.

[@dw_1812]

Turbos cannot run much further west, as they're built to a wider loading gauge (hence the 3+2 seating), and would require reconstruction of several platforms. They've already underwent ride height modification just because of the risk of fouling platforms, they only get tighter out west.

[@seananthony9664]

As someone who fairly frequently gets the kings cross to Cambridge/Ely/Kings Lynn and I absolutely agree, the 387s are woeful

[@christianwall7181]

I don’t like 387s, but as someone who very frequently travels on the Kings Cross to Peterborough route, the 387s are streets ahead of the 700s. We are down to one train each way that is not a 700 and only 3 fast services each way instead of 8, so if you care to swap…🤣

[@Solomon_C]

Were the 365s any better? I've seen that they ride better from footage but did they have any other advantages?

[@cccenturion4480]

165's are seen as a serious upgrade in parts of the South West. They replaced pacers with them.

[@VladimirPutinIsGood]

The Turbo's Were a Good Replacement For Pacers 👍

[@cccenturion4480]

@@VladimirPutinIsGood indeed, they were. Just a shame the pacer wasn't an upgrade on the 118's they replaced.

[@VladimirPutinIsGood]

@@cccenturion4480 True 👍

[@OffTheRailsUK]

Don't forget about perfectly suited 91s being replaced by ironing board IETs on a 4+ hour journey to Edinburgh!

[@rxstron]

EMR have now announced they will officially be refurbishing their class 360s, 158s and 170s with 2+2 seating and charging points

[@WOEP159]

As a person who has seen change with the Portsmouth To Cardiff from 158s to 166s I definitely prefer the 158s because I dont have to worry about standing in the doorways for half my ride or sitting in the luggage racks for half my journey

[@j3xk72r9]

I can remember using 4SUB non-corridor compartment stock into Holbourn Viaduct, this was supposed to be six across seating! Mind you, the seats were soft and comfortable and rather better than what runs on that line now. I find the 165/166's more comfortable than the GWR IET's, which surely must be the most inappropriately specified train on GWR.

[@johnward374]

You briefly mentioned 185 trains which Trannspenine are still using through Leeds- Manchester services. The company wanted 4 coach sets, but were not allowed to have and were told they had to have 3 car sets. Worst decision ever. Mass over crowding for years on these trains. Someone seemed to forget that Leeds City Station is the 2nd busiest outside of London with 18 platforms.

[@firestarteronyoutube5542]

honestly that always struck me. Why 3 Car units? its not as if 185s are on quiet rural routes, they work out of (forgive me if I make a mistake) Leeds, Man Picc, neither of which are particularly quiet.

[@shogun2215]

Imagine getting off of one of those old carbunkles travelling from Portsmouth to Cardiff, and be faced with Trafnidiaeth Cymru's fleet of shiny new Stadler trains. England's privatised railways are getting shown up by the Government run Scottish and Welsh services.

[@AdistuffRBX]

Um, I believe Scotrail is Actually run by abellio 🤓

[@Cyborgdelta1]

Problem with Nationalised railways is that progress is stagnant and when money needs to be saved guess what is the first thing that gets cut, public transport. Look at London at the moment but then again that is what happens when it ran but some one who does nothing other than spend tax payers money on cameras to tax people just for driving their cars and remove 1 day travel cards to hamper London tourism.

[@mrvwbug4423]

@@Cyborgdelta1 To be fair, the privitization scheme has only made things worse. The franchise holders are still paid by DfT to run the services, but given that most of them have monopoly power they can cut service and jack up fares up to whatever level DfT will tolerate. And the non-Franchise carriers are worse. Look at ECML for example. LNER, is by far the best carrier on the line and are the state run option at present, and are probably the best rail carrier in the UK at present. GCR and Hull Trains both have worse service for no cheaper than LNER, they just serve some branches that LNER does not. Lumo is barely cheaper than LNER, despite being a "low cost" option. It's not like the WCML where you have the AWC premium service, which is not cheap, but you get what you pay for and the LNWR, which is a legit low cost carrier that actually is significantly cheaper.

[@ChilternTransportProductions]

@@AdistuffRBX No it’s not. Hasn’t been since 1st April 2022!

[@AdistuffRBX]

@@ChilternTransportProductions mb mb

[@CPTrains]

You've summed up the DfT perfectly. EMR kinda messed up their new fleets pre-covid, and now the customers are kinda paying for it. They didn't order enough 810s, they should've split Liverpool to Norwich at Nottingham, with TPE doing the West section, as they have apparently some 185s going off lease soon. The 360s look great externally now, but need an internal refurbishment desperately. Honestly first class is useless on any service that doesn't offer catering services, so it can be ditched for capacity in the future. I believe the plan was to fit the 810 seats in both the 360s and 170s, but because it wasn't authorised pre-covid, the DfT won't want to pay for it. Even an interior that is a similar to the 350/1s, with new carpets would be nice. The money for refurbishment should be on the table, especially as trains only 12 years old (395s) have just been authorised for a refurb. Another problem of the 360s is that they have no depot on the MML. They require drags to Northampton Depot, and can't get there on their own. This means that units are often out of service, and their reliability is not as great. A promised 12 car peak time service has now been cut to frequent 4 car services. The EMR 170s are all delayed from cascadements elsewhere, and has lead to a permanent retention of the 158s, that have had no new livery or any refurbishment. The 222s are falling apart internally, the seat covers don't look great. Honestly I don't know how much people care about seat comfort, I think commuters will still use the train if it is a reliable service, quick and cheap. And there is still more you could make things about, especially what is going on with the 379s / GNs 365 replacement, Southern's EMU shortages, the fact that the 387/1+/3s could be used on Southern, and the 379s to be a stronger fleet, and better layout for Great Northern. The 377/5s should go to Southern when they have the Southern moquette, and that can allow the 465/2s to return to sevice, and to allow the 313s to be finally relieved from their long service life. Southern may then be able to run longer trains, or reintroduce some Metro services they ditched since the 455s left. And then you have the 376 situation. Their interiors are completely worn, the seat covers are falling apart, the metal parts in it have worn off, and their paintwork looks shocking, as it has been 18 years since they left Derby. And at the same time the newer 395s get a refurb. And on top of that there was a microfleet added to the SE Metro fleet, which were 5 cars per unit, when Southeastern ideally want 4 car units as they can fit 12 car trains at most of their stations, and with modern ASDO, probably at every metro station.

[@davebirch1976]

Liverpool to Norwich would have been better split at Sheffield, as Sheffield is served by a lot of trains serving the north of England.

[@cameronallan5624]

commuters don't really care about seat comfort agreed, but the maximum commute MUST be less than an hour. In my opinion Crossrail/ Elizabeth line is the maxmim commute distance that ironing board seats can be sued for. The GWR train seats are hell. iv'e done Cornwall to Reading on them and i was literally counting down the minutes. It was hell.

[@joshuaritchie3836]

@@cameronallan5624 So you would be prepared to stay on an ironing board seat for over an hour and a half because that is how long it will take to between Reading and Shenfield on the Elizabeth Line.

[@joshuaritchie3836]

The 360's do not need to be Diesel Dragged becuase Northampton is on the WCML and Both the MML & WCML are electrified and one of the linking lines is electrified so you can take them via the NNL from and to the MML/WCML.

[@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire]

@CPTrains The Liverpool to Norwich route should be handed over to Cross-country in full and rejoined together.

[@ccityplanner1217]

The worst one I can think of has to be Fnidi sending Cardiff suburban 150s all the way up to Manchester. All of these examples of misallocations are where a long-distance service is operated with a train that isn't sufficiently comfortable, but surely this isn't the only type of misallocation. I don't like finding 158s on inappropriate suburban services like Severn Beach or Maryhill, for example, or on important mainline routes like how they used to have them on the Standedge.

[@Farleigh1050]

You didnt mention for the 360s that London St Pancras to Corby route serves Luton Airport Parkway and forms it’s own mini-operator. I dont get where luggage is meant to go, except for on thameslink trains with their owners

[@sam2131]

Good news - in March, it was announced that the 379s are going to GTR.

[@user-juoig7799]

The 16x trains have also been moved to small non-electric branch lines. For example, Slough to Windsor and Eton Central, Maidenhead to Bourne End and Marlow.

[@ChilternTransportProductions]

They were always there since new, so they never moved. The Thames branches were always part of the package

[@firestarteronyoutube5542]

Pacers got replaced by cascaded GWR 150s and 158s in South West thanks to them being moved because of electrification to Cardiff

[@ChilternTransportProductions]

Just a small thing I need to point out. 3 car 165s as well as 166s are unable to work the Marlow branch from Bourne End due to their lengths overshooting the junction but they can however work peak extras between Maidenhead and Bourne End when the services are split into two separate shuttles at Bourne End, as they use the other platform adjacent that’s twice as long. You also won’t see 3 cars turbos work the Greenford branch either 166s were fairly unusual on the Henley and Windsor branches but 3 car 165s were fairly common as they can sometimes get busy

[@ChilternTransportProductions]

@@firestarteronyoutube5542 I don’t think electrification had any effect on the South West DMU fleet as all GWR services from Cardiff to Portsmouth and Taunton/Penzance are still DMUs and until the HST castle sets were withdrawn, also those to the south west. The only truly electric service into Cardiff for now is the IET one from London that can sometimes be substituted for 387s, though I know that’s set to change with the future South Wales Metro scheme being constructed now With Pacers, they had to go anyway due to PSVAR and political pressure ie being highly unpopular with everyone that isn’t a rail enthusiast

[@BigPaul62]

the 165's have worked well on the Chiltern Line which I suppose is one of the main lines they were developed for. Getting a bit long in the tooth now though.

[@VermilionStudios]

The 166's have actually been an improvement over the 158's on Cardiff-Portsmouth, as while the latter has some refurbished sets which are more comfy, they would only normally consist of 3 coaches which would often mean problems with overcrowding. Now on the line we regularly get 5 coach 166 sets which offer far more space even if the interior could do with a little extra tlc at some point. It's also worth remembering that before the 166's arrived, some services in this area were using 150 sets which were basically rusty tin cans which were unfit for purpose.

[@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire]

166's are fixed 3 coach units where as the 165's are 2 and 3 coach Units.

[@VermilionStudios]

@@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire Even so, we still get 5 coach sets, even if it's two sets joined together and that does make for a huge increase in seating capacity.

[@Paradice4Life]

They have in terms of capacity but I don't think there comfortable enough for long journeys.

[@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire]

@@Paradice4Life Well until all the 165's leave the Thames valley they would not loss there 2+3 seats but the 166's could loss the 2+3 seating in a light refurbishment.

[@justinadcock4536]

As you said, Portsmouth to Cardiff is a busy route, and having 5 car trains instead of 3 car presumably improves the passenger comfort. I’ve only been standing on that service before, so although 158’s are a better train, with the stock they have, it is good to have the added capacity. I do like your thinking of moving TFW 158s over. I assume 175s would need quite a bit of new training for staff

[@Mightypi]

The full range of turbos are a massive pain and are a massive step down from 158

[@thearsenalmisfit2414]

You missed one of the greatest sins of all. GWRs class 8xx trains. They look the part on the outside but are commuter trains on the inside. The seats are used by the Germans for commuter services, yet GWR are using these ironing board seats for intercity travel. 1 trip to Exeter and back to Paddington was more than enough to convince me to dive instead. I can not imagine going all the way to Penzance sitting in those seats. There is nothing about these trains that looks inviting, the lighting is harsh the walls are stark , the ride is not good enough and the build quality is shocking with wall panels rattling after just a year and a half in service . The fact they had the blue print over 40 years on what build it just does my head in .

[@GWVillager]

The 80Xs aren't exactly great, and there are several problems with them, however I don't think they're too poor. The standard class ambience is much improved over the HST I think, and the greater legroom and table availability is much appreciated, as is the capacity. Not to mention the decrease in journey times from electric mode. They're not amazing, yes, but not terrible exactly.

[@Lee_303]

Think I said in another of your vids, about Norwich, where a 'cross country' East Midlands Railway service to Liverpool will be an ageing 158 (the seats are nice), sat next to it will be a luxury 755 with 4 carriages, can run on diesel & overhead wires, which runs out to Yarmouth or Lowestoft etc 😄. Think I also said somewhere about the Marches route. Why no local trains by WMR?

[@jimbo6059]

GWR also do the 165s on the Reading to Gatwick services which are around 2 hour a long along the Old North Downs line.

[@smudgycat6750]

Westbury's my local station, it's fun to see the class-166 on the siding on the connection to the readingTaunton line, waiting to go for a service to warminster or Swindon

[@EpicThe112]

For the 166 those were Designed to Run London to Oxford Worcester via Didcot and Newbury via Reading pre GWML London Paddington to Reading Hayes and Harlington to Reading electrification. One advantage of a 166 over 150s is that those have ETH. Sadly the Ironing Board seats on 387/2s are also on IET.

[@joshuaritchie3836]

The 166's were also designed to run the North Downs Line.

[@danielaltmann8493]

I always thought once TfW's 158's should be leased to Northern along with East Midlands' 158's, this Northern can scrap 156's and reduce the number of types of trains they are running. The 165's & 166's could be sent west by taking 221's that Avanti is giving up. But a lot of the 222's should stay with East Midlands for their regional express the Liverpool to Nottingham (and reconnect with its other half to Norwich!)

[@MervynPartin]

I used to enjoy train travel when there were comfortable seats alongside windows. When airline seating was found in....Planes! When ticket options were simple. When trains had buffet cars. When the railways were operated by railwaymen. When was this? It was before the DfT decided that they knew what was best for us (ironing boards and window pillars). Those were the days of British Rail- sadly missed (including their sandwiches which were much better than today's offerings if you can actually get anything at all to eat on a train now)

[@Raygun-xb2st]

The 2+2 table areas on the turbos were originally 1st class for the Oxford/Thames valley runs. It was never removed

[@GWVillager]

Yes I know, but: 1. It was removed on the 2 coach Class 165s 2. It's only a very small portion of the train's overall capacity.

[@joshuaritchie3836]

@@GWVillager It was not removed on the 2 coach 165's in the Thames Valley which run the North Downs Line fast trains.

[@georgedowns4034]

@@joshuaritchie3836 Oxford- Didcot shuttle are just 2 car 165s which are simply too basic and frankly too small

[@joshuaritchie3836]

@@georgedowns4034 Some of the shuttles are 3 coaches.

[@georgedowns4034]

@@joshuaritchie3836 never seen 3 car 165s at Oxford. Only saw paired up 2 car 165s on a particular strike day

[@KerbalRocketry]

as others have said, the 166 on the cardiff-portsmouth line are a welcome addition running 5 car trains! I'd really like to see them introduce some more suitable stock though, maybe a electrostar in tri-mode configuration to make use of the extensive electrification. They do still run some of the nicer refurbished trains so it's a bit luck of the draw, recently lucks been better than early on. edit: ok I hadn't made that trip in a while, today had a 166 towards cardiff, and a 168 back towards portsmouth. like night and fucking day. the 168 is far superior in every way

[@ChilternTransportProductions]

You mean 165 not 168 lol

[@bugbloke616]

I worked on cl379s for 7 years and was responsible for reliability improvement between 2015 and 2017. During which time we made them the most reliable Electrostar ever. They are a good train and should not be scrapped. Although, they probably need an overhaul and refurb before being used again.

[@GWVillager]

Very interesting, I had heard good things about their reliability. They do seem fantastic trains, it's a shame they're going to waste, probably the best Electrostars out there.

[@chriswathen9612]

An ex-Wessex 150/2 which got the 2003 refurb has a better interior than a 165/166. These units are also now comprise the majority of the GWR 150 fleet with only a few units remaining with the original 3+2 interior. Swapping them out for turbos is not an upgrade IMO. Also pretty sure turbos can't operate west of Plymouth as they are too wide.

[@ChilternTransportProductions]

Finally some common sense! All that 150 hate for nothing…

[@SteamboatWilley]

This sort of reminds me of the two occasions when I've had Pacers for cross country journeys. Once From Liverpool to Wakefield via Manchester, and once from Carlisle to Newcastle. Pacers might be tolerable for short journeys on lightly used branch lines, but not on such long journeys. Definitely a poor allocation! Flipping the script, another poor allocation of units is Class 158s on the Maryhill branch in Glasgow. These comfy cross-country units are overkill for an urban commuter train. Ideally this line should be electrified, but as it stands a Class 150 would be perfectly adequate for this line. Of course the problem there would be that Scotrail doesn't have any Class 150s allocated to it at all, which is the reason for them using the 158s there. Many years ago these units could also be seen on the Whifflet route prior to electrification, but now the much more suitable class 318s and 320s can be found there.

[@ChilternTransportProductions]

Funny thing is, Scotland did have 150s about 20 odd years ago! Definitely should have kept a few for Glasgow

[@AMPProf]

I'M IN THE USA: Sir if you're selling we will take it all

[@AndreA-ke2id]

Two + two seating on any mode of transport is the worst idea ever, from the psychological viewpoint !!

[@SAFC_Ted]

I go on the Portsmouth - Cardiff trains and they are so crowded and busy being only 3 coaches and not suitable the only good bit is the ones still in fgw livery

[@SteamboatWilley]

The 379s look niiiice.

[@hd_harold7587]

Every time I ride from Portsmouth to Bristol I cross my little fingers and pray for a decent train. More often than not, my prayers go unanswered. Now I know what sort of train to direct my anger at. Thanks GWVillager!

[@Alex-eo9rh]

I completely agree! I think GWR really don’t realise how busy the route gets and have missed an opportunity here. With the latest timetable change Wherre they introduce more frequent services between Salisbury and Bristol, the longer Portsmouth to Cardiff trains have been short formed again :( gwr needs more units 😂😂

[@thegwyd393]

I regularly use the GW Turbos, i find it quite funny that essentially outer urban DMUs are being rattled along the XC mainline up to Worcester. Thr 165s are pretty near intolerable with very little leg room and no tables, while 166s are somewhat better with tables and generally a little roomier, also some of the 166s have been refurbished recently. That excluded, many of the turbos are in a pretty sorry state, but the carriage numbers are definitely needed around Bristol. On the topic of 387s, I had one the other day from Swindon to Paddington, which seemed a little inappropriate

[@semajttam]

The Chiltern 165s were refurbished into the 2/2, very comfortable. Then they got taken over by Arriva and aren't v reliable 😅

[@isnitjustkit]

From what I've heard, including family members that work for EMR, the 360s will get similar seating to that of the 745s, 755s and brand new 197s, interiors that seemingly everyone agrees are pretty good despite DfT directives

[@waltertownsend3821]

Ok, the Class 360’s are less comfortable but at least you can get a seat on them. The number of times a Meridian would roll up to my station and were rammed with no possible seats even when you had made a reservation (reservations often didn’t show up on the seats). So, yes they are not as comfortable but less crowded.

[@GWVillager]

That is true, they have really helped with capacity.

[@Transpennine]

I was expecting to see the EMR class 158 here, a busy working Liverpool - Norwich, thankfully is getting replaced with much better EMR 170 units! The EMR 158’s are fine! They are really nice interiors and quite a nice way to travel it’s just they can’t cope with the high demand for travel between Nottingham - Sheffield - Stockport - Manchester - Warrington - Liverpool, so 170’s should be good! They are also due to be refurbished so I’ve got no complaints for EMR in this instance!

[@billyork6017]

I've also heard that 6 car allocations are coming in late 2024 for these services so that'll help with a lot of the capacity issues

[@MathewODonoghue]

GWR use the 165/166 on the reading to Redhill line, the line is not electrified from Wokingham to Aldershot south junction then from Salford junction to Redhill.

[@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire]

The 166's are no Longer running the North Downs Line.

[@tomhotchkiss7444]

153's running cardiff to manchester is horrific

[@howardjones6752]

The only problem with British railway's is the DfT, the young bloods who seem clueless there ,probably cycle to work and have no idea what travelling by train is.

[@Slimee2]

I also think they should replace the Class 455s on the SWR.

[@GWVillager]

They're getting round to it - eventually.

[@noahbowie5985]

I think there's a potential for introducing the class 222 Meridians that will be released from EMR to operate GWR services from Portsmouth to Cardiff

[@tonys1636]

Never understood why compartments and the corridor was done away with, much warmer in winter and no one brushing past as they went to the buffet, the loo or allighting.

[@GWVillager]

I agree, I much prefer them, but they raise a few problems with security and cleanliness, and are rather annoying for ticket inspectors - I can vouch for that! There definitely should have been a few retained per train on some longer distance routes though, as is the case in much of Europe.

[@charlie8562]

Can I just mention the 165/166 are replacing the hsts from cardiff to Penzance on some routes, majority being 800s and very few being 158s, 166s and 800s have the worst seats

[@networkerfan]

also what about the class 350/2s on London to Crewe or from Birmingham to Liverpool

[@mst4309]

I think GWR’s 387s have quite some long distance potential, and had they had more units they could move some IETs off the Bristol Parkway/Cardiff route to lengthen the badly crowded 5-car services to the Cotswolds and sometimes Devon/Cornwall. Or if they actually electrified to Oxford the Oxford route could totally be 387, removing turbos from the Didcot shuttle.

[@aceleraupmimster]

i couldnt agree more, i live in Oxfordshire and use the shuttle all the time. It would be great

[@mst4309]

@The Rail Enthusiast 2021 I don’t think the hardness of seats are such a priority when so many 5 car IET trains are standing only… also IET seats aren’t that different

[@Unknown-wu8rv]

I recently asked GWR if it was possible to use 175s on Portsmouth to cardiff services and they said no due to unreliability issues and the cost of training maintenance staff to maintain them.

[@busman-gd5ek]

Since we had the 165 and 166 on Portsmouth to cardiff we lost the trolley service which we got on the 158s

[@GWVillager]

I completely forgot about that? Was there definitely a trolley service pre 16X?

[@busman-gd5ek]

@@GWVillager yeah on 158s

[@FranekTransport0607]

Honestly, i think if not the Dft us the main reason these trains are uncomfortable, if not the DFT then even the class 387 could have a higher chance of being refurbished with a more comfortable design and a more convenient first class

[@devon896]

To be honest having used Portsmouth to Cardiff trains between Westbury & Bath the 166/165s have brought a massive boost in capacity for the route but in the long term what is actually needed is faster and more comfortable trains. Either more Castle sets (never going to happen) or maybe more IET's but closer to what EMR have ordered like you said allowing the 165/166s to move down to Devon/Cornwall. I also don't understand why Chiltern doesn't have a more standard fleet and allow their 165s to move over to GWR. I also agree with the 379s on GN, allowing the 387s to all move to GWR.

[@GWVillager]

I agree, a more permanent fix will be required soon. I seem to remember hearing somewhere that GWR actually intended to use Castle Class HSTs on Portsmouth-Cardiff services, but HSTs are out of gauge in Portsmouth. I presume the same is the case with IETs, the issue is probably more to do with weight than size. Chiltern feels exactly the same way! They were quite keen on an exclusively 168 fleet but they’ve since gone out of production. There was a Chiltern document that referred to “any Class 175s in the fleet at the time”, which either suggests that they have their eyes on them to replace 165s/mk 3s or it was simply a typo of 165, which is somewhat less exciting.

[@devon896]

@@GWVillager Interesting although I would like to see some of the Chiltern Mainline services replaced by GWR services IET's to give links to Paddington & Heathrow from Birmingham.

[@StaxRail]

The issue with Turbos not being fully cascaded down yet is due to massive issues with the tri mode capabilities of the 769s. Once they are fully introduced all 166s are moving to Exeter depot

[@GWVillager]

@@StaxRail They will still run the Portsmouth-Cardiff and Westbury services, which is where my objections lie.

[@devon896]

@@StaxRail Unlikely because the majority are meant to be in Bristol, the 158s are meant to be for Exeter.

[@networkerfan]

what about class 170s on cross country's Birmingham to Stanstead Airport or from Nottingham to Cardiff via Birmingham because it means 2 or 3 car trains on heavily overcrowding routes

[@thestupidpeeps4082]

Greg has prepared a ham sandwich with a side of egg. and a pan au chocolate

[@dobbinism]

Travelling on the Great Northern 387s is not only uncomfortable with those ironing board seats (these are used on the fairly lengthy Kings Lynn to London services) but the ride quality is problematic. At speed, the ends of the coaches rattle quite violently from side to side, as if the bogies are hunting intermittently. It can be quite disconcerting.

[@GWVillager]

Ride quality is indeed an issue on many modern trains as well. Inside sprung bogies have been a broadly negative thing for the passenger I think, though I do believe the 387s are outside sprung, oddly.

[@Solomon_C]

Yes, indeed the 365s were far better when it came to ride quality.

[@jamieneil6123]

You're talking about the 360's interior being unsuitable but the journey time is around 1hr 30 min which is shorter than the journey from London Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour which can be two hours plus and they use 450's which have a similar interior. Also the 165's and the 166's have the same Perkins engines that the Perkins engined 158's. The Perkins engine isn't that much louder than a Cummins engined 158. Besides, Wessex Trains had Perkins engined 158's on the Cardiff Central-Portsmouth Harbour service and I'm pretty sure GWR still has them

[@GWVillager]

Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour is inappropriate for the 450s, yes, but at least the interior is refurbished, and they're not the exclusive traction. The thing with the 360s is that they replaced far more comfortable trains - they don't have to be as good as the 222s but something slightly better. The noise has little to do with the engine, but rather the sound proofing - the 165/6s have 1/3 2/3 doors and noise thus travels much more noticeably into the cabin than on a 158.

[@nathanw9770]

Im surprised you didnt mention the class 700's along with the 387s. Not only do they do slightly longer journeys than the 387's but they dont even have tables for most of the train!

[@rowanthursday5860]

I'm not sure what would be a suitable route for the 387s. Possibly one with a bottomless pit at the end, fully loaded with politicians. The seats appear to be designed by someone who's never met a human and doesn't understand what vertebrates are, the suspension seems absent, the gangways narrow and the vestibules cramped, as if the designers felt that giving the train a slim, narrow profile was vastly more important than actually allowing room for passengers to navigate it, and they seem to have a failure rate somewhere between Windows Vista and a 1980s Skoda. They're a vast step down from the reliable, tough workhorses that were the 365s which previously worked the route, and significantly less spacious and comfortable than the tired old 317s that preceded *them*. For that matter, the pre-electrification 101 DMUs were probably a preferable option to the 387 rattletraps. Can anyone sell Great Northern a couple of Pacers?

[@darylkemp1257]

Midland mainline Class 158s between Peterborough and Norwich in the summer months are terrible unsuitable for the demand on that service like sardine cans

[@z00h]

This might be the first recorded instance of someone using "class 222" & "passenger comfort" in same sentence.

[@GWVillager]

Ha, they're certainly a bit worn at the moment, but they're not inherently bad trains when it comes to comfort. They're better than the Voyagers at least.

[@sabersz]

I quite like them. Travelled from Bournemouth to Birmingham on one and they were pretty comfy

[@ajf3202]

@@sabersz that woulda been a 220/221 mate

[@sabersz]

@@ajf3202 people still hate them plenty, I've never had a problem with em

[@networkerfan]

@@sabersz I agree that voyagers are ok, but the reason why voyagers are hated because they are very proned to overcrowding

[@jackmellor5536]

I would replace the 360s with the younger withdrawn 379s on the London to Corby route and extended the route to Derby via Oakham.

[@1stdaybreaker707]

I use the 165/6s to get from Soton to Bristol, and they're certainly not ideal, its always packed in the morning and when I habe brought freinds with me there were a lot of complaints...

[@alasdaircook5673]

Our trains from Norwich are awful. What happened to the Inter City trains we use to have? Oh wait they got rid of them. As for the Cambridge- Kings Cross trains nice that it is only 40mins journeys but as you say 1st class I wouldn't pay the extra just to sit in a seat that has a Napkin on the top of the seat! As for the 158s the ones from Norwich to Liverpool are so cramped. I have only been on them to Peterborough and have got off them with a numb bum!

[@williamhuang8309]

Just remember that Great Northern scrapped the Class 365s that were perfectly good trains with actually comfortable seats and lied about those trains having no aircon.

[@Solomon_C]

But the 365s didn't have air-con. The 165s did, but the 365s never had it fitted

[@ArCKonan]

387s and 700s are my local and I agree; 379s would be a huge improvement.

[@AndrewG1989]

GN could of had the Class 379s and upgrade them to 110mph and mainly used on London King's Cross-Cambridge, Cambridge North and King's Lynn.

[@jacktattersall9457]

On wikipedia, it seems the class 379s are in storage because no one will use them due to high leasing costs. I'm not in the UK so don't get rail leasing, but why after you have bought the train will you store it because no one will use it. Shouldn't the ROSCO cut the rolling stock costs until they get a bidder? Also, weren't the trains bought by the government using tax dollars, if so why can't the government just use them, demanding a reasonable lease rate?

[@GWVillager]

These are the woes of not having a rolling stock strategy or "guiding mind". There's simply no-one to tell the trains to go anywhere, and if they're expensive they won't be used by anyone of their own accord.

[@sprinterofficial8457]

the TFW 158s are by far my favourite 158s, i really want them to go to a new home after replacement but if GWR has them they better not chop them up and make them 3 car trains

[@RWL2012]

they can't even if they wanted to, because they don't have enough of the gangway connection adapters.

[@NewNightmare115]

Ever been on a Pacer? They were little cattle cars. Well not literal but they were buses.

[@danielsellers8707]

I think the 165s should have gone straight to the west country to replace the 143s & 150s, with the 150s going to Northern.

[@oliverbakker8381]

Send the 166 175s to northern southport to Stalybridge

[@haweater1555]

I'm from Canada, and the thought of accommodations in 2+3 seating on British rail network's tight narrow loading guage, as pretty cramped.

[@GWVillager]

And that would be a correct thought as it is very cramped! As a result few trains are specified with 3+2 seating nowadays, people have both got larger and less tolerant to lack of space since both the Class 165/6s and 360s entered service.

[@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire]

@@GWVillager The 165's and 166's are a Network Southeast creation. The 450's, 458's, some Turbostars, some Electrocstars & 350's are all newer than the Netowkers and still have 2+3 seating.

[@Pulsarnix]

Finally a refurbishment for the 360s has been announced. It's about time! Also the 175s might be going to GWR soon. Have you predicted the future?

[@andrewcharlton4053]

Anything in the North East... Thank god the pacers got phased out a few years back, but we're still on a lot of old hand me downs from the South.

[@GWVillager]

The North East doesn’t even get Southern hand me downs - just old trains… There is a bit of hope though, Northern have just tendered for some new trains.

[@networkerfan]

I am surprised you didn't mention class 172s on Birmingham to Hereford

[@GWVillager]

It is very poor allocation, but at least it's changing, unlike the others.

[@networkerfan]

The class 172s are remaining with wmt so I'm guessing that wmt will just always use either a class 170 or a 196 on Birmingham to Hereford

[@networkerfan]

the class 323s are going to replace the 319s on Manchester and Liverpool to Blackpool regional service even though the class 323s were built for Birmingham commuter services that's a terrible rolling stock allocation in fact I am surprised you haven't made a part 2

[@liviajumara6423]

I think the 158s and 175s on Cardiff to Portsmouth is great but the only thing I see wrong is that they aren't coupling compatible unless they give 158s Shafenburgs

[@GWVillager]

I doubt they'd interrun to be honest, perhaps the 175s could do Portsmouth to Cardiff and then the 158s do Westbury stoppers? It might be overcomplicated though, all 158s would do frankly.

[@liviajumara6423]

That's true

[@aldo4319]

Even the 395 units on HS1 have got that revolting 1/3 2/3 vestibule layout, let's have proper vestibules at the ends of the coach please.

[@transportenthusiast11]

how can the DfT be so incompetant

[@networkerfan]

or class 455s on waterloo to Windsor and Reading that's an over hour long journey without a toilet I am surprised you Didnt mention that

[@___Wrench___]

I think that the class 508 will be on the list, I might be over reacting

[@ashleywilson8033]

I have learnt for this that the DfT are incompetent which I kind of already knew but damn. It’s as if they don’t want the railways to work.

[@themeparksandtransport]

I would like to also say that the Class 220’s and 221’s just aren’t doing well with capacity on CrossCountry’s routes. They’re always rammed and have become VUC’s (a term I’ve come up with that stands for Very Uncomfortable Contraptions). The solution would be to order some Class 810’s. These have 7 coaches (more capacity compared to the 4 and 5 car sets we have at the moment) and if they turn out to do well on Avanti (more comfortable seats, for example), I think CrossCountry could be on to a big winner. What could possibly stop them? Oh yes, the DfT… Edit: I now realise I have mentioned the wrong class. It is EMR that is getting Class 810’s. The class I should have mentioned is the Class 807.

[@AhtNFG]

well class 360s are getting refurbished with 2+2 throughout

[@jasongnrfan7374]

I went on a refurbished 165 the other day I thought they ere comfy I like the 150s to

[@ajf3202]

Pompey local. The turbos are awful. Can barely manage to Salisbury on em let alone Cardiff!!!

[@lewiss626]

What do you think to Grand Centrals rolling stock allocation and what do you think would replace the 180s eventually. I'm only asking cause I worked with the 180s and know what there like 🤣

[@GWVillager]

I have to say, I wish Grand Central still maintained a mixed fleet of HSTs and 180s. To be fair, the 180s aren’t terrible at those routes, but there’s a lot of diesel running under the wires and the less said about reliability the better. If I were to hazard a guess, I would say they’re most likely to be replaced by 80Xs in the next 5-10 years ( though towards the latter end of that time bracket the IET may not be in production so it might be something else).

[@Trainman10715]

the 180s are actaully very nice trains to ride on (when theyre working) like the 175s, its just unfortunate that their reliability leaves a lot to be desired

[@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire]

@@GWVillager I think Grand Central might get some thing which is not an IEP but something similar like a Stadler FLIRT.

[@GWVillager]

@@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire FLIRTs would likely be too slow, I don't think any have a max speed over 100mph.

[@james123212]

@@GWVillager the Stadler FLIRT platform is already capable of 125mph, Grand Central would just need to spec them for 125 if they ordered some

[@TomBradfordUK]

With the Corby service, I think if anything the 222s were a bad allocation as opposed to the 360s, as the 222s were intercity express units operating on a London commuter (or at a big push, regional) service, which is the exact type of service that the 360s were designed for (and used for with GA) across many years. The interior styling is very outdated and is in need of a big refurbishment but, although the 3x2 seating isn't the most comfortable thing for passengers and most would prefer 2x2, it does help increase capacity onboard shorter units, which could be good for the route in question which is known to be quite busy. In addition, I think it would be highly unlikely for the 175s to end up at GWR, They spent years trying to get rid of the 180s after their terrible reliability record so I imagine they won't be too enthusiastic to take on a micro fleet of essentially the same units, especially now that they're rid of all the maintenance facilities and staff required. The TfW 158s however would be a great fit for GWR as they've already got the resources required and suitability for the routes.

[@kieranstravels]

From what I can tell, the 360 referb is still going ahead, so that’s nice - they’re just waiting for the 810s, as it appears they’re going to take design ques from it’s interior instead. As for the 175 thing, Yeah, I could see that happening honestly, especially once TFW don’t need them.

[@1nbp]

The refurb has been scaled back to keeping the current seating arrangement and changing the seat covers…

[@kieranstravels]

@@1nbp That’s disappointing to hear.. those seats are atrocious.

[@1nbp]

@@kieranstravels I hate them so much hahaha, EMR is still committed to doing the whole refurb but once again the DfT isn’t providing the funds.

[@annoyingbstard9407]

Trainspotters rival teachers for their capacity to moan.

[@BenskiBoi]

From Trowbridge there’s only 166 and 158

[@smudgycat6750]

Also something you forgot to mention is that not the entire trip on the GWML is electified, it stops at Swindon

[@GWVillager]

When did I ever say that? Also, the GWML is electrified all the way to Cardiff, it certainly does not stop at Swindon.

[@smudgycat6750]

I'm talking about the one through chipnham, unless we're thinking of different lines?

[@smudgycat6750]

Turns out I got my facts wrong, I apologize for that

[@MESTOR_1324]

DO NOT REMOVE THE SPRINTERS LIKE COMON THEY ARE GOOD TRAINS FOR TRAINS TO OBAN SO GOOD YOU CAN DOUBLE IT AND ITS BASICLY A 4 CAR WITH THE GANGWAYS

[@martinreed9565]

I agree with you 100% think of the Class 309 class 411 very comfortably .

[@MrBoombastic1]

What about the 158's/170s on Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street?

[@GWVillager]

Interesting suggestion. I must say I really like both trains and my experiences on that route have been broadly positive, though I have travelled nowhere near the full length on it. What is downright terrible is the alarmingly common appearance of 156s on the service!

[@Trainman10715]

@@GWVillager recently did the entire norwich - liverpool on a 2 car 158 (became 4 car at nottingham). the 158s are pretty well suited to the route apart from their small luggage racks that people struggle to fit larger items of luggage into - on the trip a suitcase fell off a rack onto the person below. other than that the 158s are nice trains and were originally intended for that sort of route so theyre well at home. only other thing i could say is that it could have done with being 4 coaches all the way - presumably this is because they dont have enough of them

[@AndrewG1989]

I think that EMR are getting more Class 170 Turbostars to be used on services in Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire, Derbyshire and possibly Norwich-Liverpool Lime Street.

[@AndrewG1989]

The Class 360/1 EMR Connect Desiros are actually quite nice. I do remember them when they were with Greater Anglia. And the Class 379 Electrostar that have gone for storage could of gone to GWR or Great Northern. Or perhaps ScotRail should inherit the Class 379 to replace the Class 318 and Class 320 units on the Glasgow Strathclyde suburban routes.

[@GWVillager]

I don't think the 379 would work too well on Strathclyde suburban routes, it would probably be over-specified. The 387s might get away with it though, if they were displaced.

[@AndrewG1989]

@@GWVillager True. Or if c2c were to replace the Class 357s and to cascade them to ScotRail for those routes.

[@eilidhmm]

379s to ScotRail would never happen - wrong number of carriages for a start (most 318/320 routes have platforms that are only long enough for 6 carriages, so that precludes doubling up of 379s), never mind the fact that the 318/320 fleet has around twice as many units to replace.