Tesla's $22,000 Battery Replacement | What You Need To Know

[@RyanShawtech]

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[@realworldtesla]

Can an owner sell his old battery on the open market to defray the cost of the new one?

[@safeandeffectivelol]

@@realworldtesla Who would buy an old used Tesla battery not knowing what it's gone through?

[@Narinjas]

In my humble opinion, if you rely on your electric vehicle to the point that you are 80% sure you can get a battery replacement in warranty, then by all means use as much as you can to get that, but after the replacement treat the new battery like a baby, using all the methods that suits your lifestyle. (Charging from 20-30% to 70-80% making half a battery capacity recharge for each recharge, and avoiding Superchargers like the plague and only using them when the need is extreme (like distance long road trips, otherwise use hotels with destination chargers and have a relaxed night with a level 2 destination change overnight, or simply visit the town for the ~5 hours it takes to charge 50%)

[@hectora3692]

Hell what is the point to buy a car which runs on battery. In the long run you will save on gas and not too pollute the air . But in 8 years I don’t think you will spend $ 22.000 in gas 😖 even worse if I go to the dealer and buy used Tesla ? More chance’s to get screw or purchase a lemon 👎🏾

[@Narinjas]

@@hectora3692 NORMAL ICE CAR MAINTENANCE, Just add the cost of the time spent on mechanic, the mechanic cost, and the oil and other "wear components" ( brake pads included, since electric vehicles have regenerative braking and 1 pedal driving), and you come to spend way more on normal ICE vehicles... But, for some reason, maybe because of how people drive the instant torque, or because the tires need to be specifically made for electrical vehicles, TESLA EAT TIRES for a sizable consumer base, and you basically shift the other costs into tires, even if not all people encounter the often need to change tires, it is still something that needs urgent care and attention from either car or tire manufacturers, because it shouldn't be that way (we encountered the problem Race Cars have, and why they limited the tires/ season, but in real life, you need to be informed of such things, and maybe even a need to have a mode that is close to normal, but doesn't put too much pressure on the tires, and call it TIRE SAVING sub mode that limits the maximum torque on tires, so you keep within tire specifications for minimal wear, since it is all software based, you could either enter what tires you have, with front and back differences, or to manually enter the specifications of the tires, in case the data base doesn't have the tire specifications.)

[@Autuber123]

Reporting in: 2018 M3 LRRWD 80,729 miles. Original range 310, now 282. No brake pad change to date, minimal maintenance. Love it - the best car I ever had. She’s a keeper.

[@BonanzaPilot]

I've had an identical experience with my 18 M3P-. 79k miles original was a little less than yours and now its 272. No real big mx items, no won't at all to replace it. I did have a rental with a heat pump and that really is a game changer, but 5 years later and I still love the car!

[@kimchee94112]

11.2% loss per 100K miles or 275 mile range at 100K miles.

[@MaxilentProductions]

@@kimchee94112seems to fall into what Tesla projects and claims. I think they said around ~10% degradation at 100k miles, and ~15% at 200k miles.

[@kencporter]

Almost identical experience for me. I was one of the first 4,000 M3's off the line. I had 311 miles originally, now i get 291 after 6 years and 70k miles

[@osmanarfeen625]

2018 M3 LR RWD range got updated to 325 range.

[@Volcomsd1]

Still rocking my original 85kw battery in my 2013 model S. It has 139k miles and the range is 242 miles at 100% charge. Not much degradation from it’s original 265 miles. Thanks for the vid Ryan. I asked Carlsbad service center last month about battery cost. At the time they quoted me 13k for a used 90kw battery and 22k for a brand new 90kw pack.

[@jackwong64]

Av very good information, thanks for sharing it.

[@JamesPCroad]

Affordable!

[@kestrelglassingsystems6704]

Great video with excellent information and resources. Would be great to see some cost comparisons to ICE cars looking at both the cost of major repairs or loss of range. My F150 is going to require new turbochargers soon, estimated to be around a $2500-$3000 repair. I already spend 1000-2000 annually on engine maintenance and the truck is 10 years old. So, after ten years and $125k miles I’m looking at in the neighborhood of $15000-$20000 in cost to maintain that power plant. Additionally the same F150 has dropped from 21MPG at the time of purchase to 16MPG at its current condition. This is a roughly 25% drop in range on a tank of gas. I’ve experienced similar degradations with other ICE cars. We don’t talk about it much because there’s a gas station on every corner. In contrast, my 2018 Model 3 has cost me virtually nothing to maintain (tires and wipers) over nearly 50k miles. I have experienced some range loss in it, but it’s performing at the top of the distribution, currently.

[@0hypnotoad0]

@@kestrelglassingsystems6704 I think EVs get targeted and cherry-picked by the media for hideous repair bills, but honestly those kinds of costs seem par for the course these days for any type of vehicle. The company I work for recently had to do a transmission replacement on a Ram Promaster that just went out of warranty, and it cost $11,000. After seeing these eye-watering out-of-warranty ICE repair costs I don't think these EV battery costs seem too out of the ordinary, really.

[@jml9550]

$1-2k to maintain a F150? Wow, how many miles do you drive a years? I have a 2017 Lexus ES350, just hit 37K miles and it cost me less around $1.3K so far on oil changes, brake fluid and coolant replacement. I replace the air filters myself, like 3 times at $20 each.

[@TSLAaddict]

My ‘16 MX P90D now with 246k+ miles has lost only 13% of the battery and still haven’t replaced the brakes. Never driven a car putting on with this amount of miles. LOVE IT!

[@GoodToCU88]

How's the suspension at 250k+ miles?

[@joemcdonough7509]

@@GoodToCU88 Suspension is the weak point in Teslas. My 2015 P90D has control arm bushings that creak louder and louder over time. Even Ryan's new Model S Plaid has the same exact creak that my 2015 has.

[@Mabeylater293]

@@joemcdonough7509after 246 thousands miles all it does is creak? No replacements???

[@joemcdonough7509]

@@Mabeylater293 Mine only has 52,000 miles. I replaced the control arms at about 50K. One of them still creaks.

[@mobouncethanaou]

Wow. That's awesome

[@fearsomebeard4290]

My business partner bought a new Model S in 2013. He’s still driving it, loves it and has no plans to replace it. It’s the original battery and he still has plenty of range. His experience is why I took delivery of a new 2022 model X last summer and plan to drive through at least 2032 and probably longer.

[@M13x13M]

How many miles?

[@CropCircleCritic]

So jealous. That’s my dream car. Enjoy!

[@PaulMotorCo]

2022 Model X is incredible!

[@austinfrazier7325]

How many drive unit replacements?

[@jacob9673]

Yikes. I would never buy a Tesla-crap build quality/QC, crap ability to fix on your own, and you’re locked into their ecosystem.

[@frankcoffey]

Even if the cost of a battery drops that doesn’t mean service centers will drop the price. We need aftermarket batteries for true competition.

[@dontbanmebrodontbanme5403]

While I agree with you, almost certainly, by the time you're ready to replace your car battery, if you treat it right, it'll have more than 300K miles on it. At that point, you may very well decide your car's technology is old and you want a new car. Ideally, you can sell the battery to a recycling company, sell the rest to a junk yard and buy a new car.

[@beansRuns]

The other side of that coin is that EV manufacturers will keep their battery costs low to undercut and eliminate competition from potential battery startups. Of course, the big manufacturers can just buy out the startups and set their own price, like pharma does

[@frankcoffey]

When a battery degrades you can still use the car you just get less range. If a engine or transmission fails your range drops to zero until you fix it.

[@jimr7731]

At some point the range drops to the level of unusable. While the initial drop is slow, it will accelerate as it reaches terminal life.

[@odisy64]

​@@jimr7731 nope, batteries slow down in degradation the longer it last, the first 50k miles degrades 5% but after 200k miles it's 10%. 20% loss is considered end of life but still usable.

[@mockingbird187]

I think we need to be fair on this, because degradation is degradation, and failure is failure. Some batteries will also experience sudden failure. Engines and transmissions will also experience degradation over time, but still function and move the car around. Difference is, when a battery degrades, there are still no tailpipe emissions, but when an ICE engine degrades, usually it pollutes more.

[@ThreeDogsTwoCatsAndAWife]

True. We’re comparing apples to hammers😂

[@robinrdale8318]

But a ten year old car will still pretty much do the same miles as it did at the start while an ev won’t and that’s why the second hand market for evs is dead and the nobody wants them

[@TeslaRyan]

My 2014 Model S P85D's battery is still going strong nearly 10 years later and has never been replaced! According to Recurrent, I've got 246-247mi when the EPA rated range was 242mi brand new lol

[@mockingbird187]

Wow, that's impressive!

[@bryanb9636]

That’s impressive, How many miles have you put?

[@TeslaRyan]

@@bryanb9636 69,301 right now, I'm inching closer to the golden number, 69,420!

[@rjmcgowan]

2015 p85d 107,498 miles. No battery issues. I only charge to 80% daily and leave it on the charger when parked.

[@bryanb9636]

@@rjmcgowan range when new and range now? Battery degradation % ?

[@motoarzan791]

IF A BATTERY COSTS $20k retail and on average of about 1% fail. Then the manufacturers should simply add $200 to every vehicle and guarantee all batteries for the life of the vehicle. I'd gladly pay $200 for this.

[@Aspen5.7]

I just drove 500 miles to San Diego from the Flagstaff area. One 5 minute stop at 300 miles for gas in my paid off Chrysler Aspen. Absolutely LOVE IT!!

[@safeandeffectivelol]

You're racist for not getting a loan for an $80,000 car. Think of the bankers who have been demonized for centuries

[@deadshota736]

It's all fun and games till you gotta get maintenance done and have to replace multiple parts for an accumulation of $10k

[@pierrearnoldiii]

I drive around 60k a year, with gas thats literally lighting it on fire.

[@Jawnderlust]

I had to Google what a Chrysler Aspen was. 😂

[@climatenomad]

How much CO2 did you emit in the process, dooming the rest of us. Before you say electric utilities use fossil fuels remember that gas car efficiency on a car like yours is probably under 20% while an electric motor is in the high 90s. Also utilities use a significant amount of non-CO2 emitting generation (solar, wind, nuclear and hydro) and the fossil fuel generation is done with highly efficient turbines that are way more efficient than a gas car's engine.

[@WaseemM2]

Let's say in the next 8 years the cost of battery goes down by 50% and it will cost you $7500 to replace battery on a car say 10 years old. That is money you have to come up with right away and most middle class folks can't come up with it with out taking a loan or putting it on high interest credit card. If only 1.5 - 2 % cars need battery replacement after 8 years then why not simply cover it by supplemental battery insurance. If anything EV makers should be offering this as an option. If they have confidence in their battery a $5.99 to 9.99 /month battery replacement insurance is something every one should be able to stomach (refurbished batteries would do). There won't be any stress buying used EVs otherwise there is always going to be anxiety and controversy.

[@Lozzy-loulou]

Yes I think batteries will become much cheaper in the future!

[@jdbaker82]

Better than having to buy a new car

[@downix]

Another thing to consider: Many times when a battery is suffering from a significant degrading of range, it is not the whole pack which is at fault, but a single cell within it. I know that is what happened with my 2016 Kia Soul EV, where one cell began to fail, causing the battery to lose 67% of its factory range. In my case Kia replaced the entire pack under warranty (which gave me 135% of my factory range, as the new battery was a third larger) but had I needed to replace the battery module holding the faulty cell outside of warranty, I was looking at around $2k out the door.

[@daviddavidsonn3578]

you bought a...KIA??? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Uriah625]

A co-workers brother started doing cell replacements about 5 years ago. What a lot of people don’t realize about replacement is exactly what you said, the new battery is going to be better than the old one ever was. So the cost of the battery may not go down, but you are going to be getting a much better battery. Imagine how much better they will be in another 8 years!

[@frankcoffey]

Lead acid car batteries are recycled at about 90% that’s why we don’t have lead mines everywhere. EV batteries will be the same. Fun fact some of the lead in your ICE car battery may be from the 1950s when recycling batteries started.

[@tormave]

This is true. But recycling is only a partial answer at best until the number of retired and new cars with lithium batteries are roughly equal in number. The difference will have to be made up initially by a massive expansion in lithium mines and processing plants until these batteries are as ubiquitous as lead batteries are today.

[@Berretotube]

Thanks Frank, always enjoy your input and information sir.

[@pierrearnoldiii]

I purchased a Model S that needed a new battery. Purchased a wrecked car for the battery for $10k. Sold the modules from the old car for $12500, did the swap myself with some help with the config change (upgraded to a 100 battery), also sold other parts from the wrecked car. All in all, the upgrade from a bad 85 battery to a 100 pack with 20k miles made me $8k :)

[@kurtrhoney121]

You just didn't say how difficult it was compared to swapping out A prius HV battery that I can do in about 25 minutes.

[@climatenomad]

@@kurtrhoney121 pretty easy for Tesla on the original Model S since they had a swap station that was routinely doing it in less than 5 minutes as an alternative to charging at first...

[@danharold3087]

@@climatenomad The swapping station did not see serious use. One had to make an appointment to get a swap. Thinking that Tesla may have removed parts associating with swapping on the car.

[@danharold3087]

@@kurtrhoney121 Thinking the is 4 Prius uses AA cells ? /s Seriously 1.3 1.5 and 8.8KWh batteries are not the same as changing 60 or 100KWh battery.

[@StayAfterClass]

U can buy a model s with a faulty battery for 5k … then u go rent a similar model s and swap the battery packs ! So that 5k car jumped to almost 20k . You’re most likely gonna make atleast 13-14k profit . U can get this whole job done in a day and have the car sold next week ! And at the end of the day the car u rented has a battery warranty so nobody but Tesla will take the hit !

[@sptrader6316]

The fact you had to have your battery replaced within 8 years, means that out of warranty, the battery could die at any time, without warning. I'd love to pick up a used 2015 or so Model S, but driving a $20k time bomb is disturbing, not to mention the $5k motors and suspension problems with the older cars. Tesla should make cheap battery replacement warranties, or some other ways of making the car last far beyond the standard 8 year warranty. The goal after all, is to make the World a Greener place. Building Teslas is a very fossil fuel intensive process, they need to be on the road as long as possible, to have a positive impact on the environment.

[@tiloalo]

The world a greener place? If it was the case they would allow independent shop to offer repair, but no, it's much more profitable to only offer new part.

[@johngerraughty]

Tesla parts guy here. One thing nobody ever mentions in these videos is the fact that the cost of a replacement HV pack can be much less than people think, especially on the older S and X models. This is because most packs that fail are refurbished by Tesla and are made available for replacements. If you have a vehicle that needs a pack replacement out of warranty, you will initially be quoted the cost of a new pack which can be around 20k depending on the model. Parts can request a quote on a replacement and if a refurbished pack is available we will get an exact price for the customer. I have seen a pack replacement for an older S be as "cheap" as 9k. The cost of the pack depends on how much of it is new cells. In the case of the 9k replacement, the customer went ahead of it because they love their car and they felt is was worth that to keep it on the road. I would also ask everyone who is making a big deal about the cost of a replacement pack to go price what it would cost to replace the engine in their ICE car if it were to fail outside of warranty. Maybe cheaper than a battery, but maybe not depending on what you are driving.

[@baldisaerodynamic9692]

with these newer cars, and ones with turbos.....certainly going up and up and up.

[@EwanM11]

If the ice car has similar performance to the Tesla, engine replacement price will probably be in the same ballpark. Those twin turbo V8s ain't cheap.

[@adoniswilliams3046]

Nobody mentions that because the service department at Tesla leaves a lot to be desired. When my battery failed on my 2014 S85 I couldn't even call a dealership and talk to someone, I had to send a service request through an app. Then the service center without even calling me or seeing the car sent me a message on the app less than 24 hours later with an estimate for $21,000 to replace the high voltage battery AND THEY HADN'T EVEN SEEN THE CAR! 😂 I requested a phone call and was finally contacted and told they don't need to see the car, because the codes they can see all lead to needing a new battery. If what you are saying is accurate, the dealership should be completely diagnosing the battery before quoting someone for a $21k repair on a vehicle they purchased for $100k and only has 55,000 miles on it. That's a slap in the face to your highest-level customer. If I had dropped that $120k at Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, or Maserati (all vehicles I have owned before), at least the customer service would have been up to par.

[@johngerraughty]

@@adoniswilliams3046 Agreed. A service advisor should have contacted you early on to explain things. The pack can be diagnosed remotely, but an advisor should have let you know that unless there was impact damage to the pack then it would be covered under the battery warranty. Even in the case of impact damage, insurance typically covers that under collision so it is rare for any customer to have to pay for a pack replacement out of pocket.

[@Gabri3lRocha]

@@johngerraughtythe insurance premiums go up. Love my Tesla model 3 rwd but I’m starting to get very nervous about the possibility of having to replace the pack once warranty runs out. Or even in warranty with the possibility of impact damage

[@MrOktsx]

I find it interesting that at least 2 KZbinrs that I follow (you and Everyday Chris) have had your battery packs replaced. Maybe Tesla owners are more likely to produce content for You Tube, I don't know. I'm not sure what to think about that. But, if I was interested in any other (ICE) car and was following a few people on KZbin about their experiences with that vehicle, and they just happened to have the engines replaced, it would definitely give me pause.

[@lIIustration]

What ICE do you drive?

[@MrOktsx]

@lIIustration after 3 years of researching BEV's, I decided to go with a hybrid. Bought a '24 Lexus NX 350h. I had a CX-5 for seven years before that. My main concern with an EV is range. I need a vehicle that can reliably drive 200 miles round-trip, regardless of weather, without having to charge. The more research I did, the less interested I was in an EV. My use-need may change some day, but right now the infrastructure and tech are just not there yet for some rural areas.

[@lIIustration]

@x Are you not worried about the hybrid battery on the lexus which will cost at least $10,000 to replace after 10 years? Or the screen which is a $5000 part? Or wear and tear of the ICE engine like valve seals, valve stems, timing chain, etc? Also, where I live most hybrid vehicles do not qualify for rebates which is a potential saving of $9000 depending on your income.

[@MrOktsx]

@lIIustration valve stems?🤣 All kidding aside, no. It's a Lexus. They've (Toyota) been making hybrids for over 25 years. A very conservative company that builds longevity into their products. I plan to keep it 5-7 years and see where the EV market is at that time.

[@lIIustration]

@@MrOktsx You're buying new cars and selling after 5-7 years but worried about an EV battery with 8 year warranty? 🤣 I think your depreciation is already a huge chunk of the battery itself, and this is from a guy who owns 3 ICE vehicles (2008 prius, 2000 porsche 911, 2010 F150).

[@SWTrailsAndWheels]

My local Chevy dealer is quoting over $25,000 to replace the relatively small gen1 Chevy Volt battery. When the vehicle was in production, costs were under $5k. GM clearly wants you to just scrap Gen1 Volts instead of supporting them.

[@AnhBui-zp1ee]

Sounds like a good deal take it

[@wdbldr67]

2018 RWD M3 100,000 miles. I have found that charging to different intervals regularly is great. Probably most of my charging is 90% but to do 70 and 80% on work days, waiting a couple days to plug in and charge to 90 for the weekend this has by far been the best practice. My current on screen range at 100% is 298/310 so a 4% drop.

[@drjorgecampos]

Isn't the RWD M3 an LFP pack?

[@mana9013]

​@@drjorgecamposno....not for 2018

[@lucaspm98]

How do you know you wouldn’t have got better results with a different strategy? Without a comparison you have no idea if this was better or worse.

[@jjcsystems]

@@lucaspm98 agreed. if you have to incorporate a strategy for charging your car you’ve already lost. Just keep it at 80 or 90 percent for daily commutes and switch to 100 percent when it’s needed and enjoy the vehicles.

[@M.A992]

This is incorrect, Tesla added a 15 mile range increase update in 2021. So 325~298 so you’ve lost 9 percent

[@david100483]

My friend and I both got new electric cars last year. I got a model y LR and he got a bmw i4. I charge at home with level 2 30amp (normally have it set lower at 16amp overnight). My friend lives in a condo where home charging isn’t possible, he fast charges his car on Saturdays using electrify America chargers. I wish they were both exact same make and model to compare battery degradation evenly, time will tell on how degradation does us. So far, I haven’t noticed any degradation, I also never supercharge and constantly change charging limit between 50, 60, 70, 80 and few times to 90 percent. (I’m at 10k miles) Thanks for sharing! 🍻 ✌️

[@Hillclimbheros]

I have a 23 model y performance. I have had it for almost 2 months and have put almost 6000 miles on it however I have noticed at 100 percent 303 brand new now only hits 285 at 100 percent.

[@david100483]

@@Hillclimbheros I’ve noticed miles pile up quick on a lot of our tesla, that means we love driving them lol. I recently seen a video of someone improving ride quality and range in a performance model y by downsizing to lighter 18” wheels. Kinda thinking about doing this to mine. ✌️

[@w2385-i2s]

With $22,000 I can buy a Toyota ICE and it will last 40 years.

[@BlakeCheck]

It’s important to note that charging from 70 to 80% often and not allowing the battery to deplete past 40% every once in a while will result in an inaccurate range estimate. Which is not the same as degradation.

[@jimmyk7527]

To much work for a 80k car then for the extra auto pilot. Cars are excellent but if I paid for auto pilot when I sell it I lose that value and tesla gets another 10k. Its the future I agree

[@magsteel9891]

Any comment on the high cost of accidents and insurance? I'm told insurance cost is very high because companies total EV's due to potential battery damage. Even when they don't the repair cost is very high.

[@cb-40]

I would disagree that the replacements are "rare". You have had your Model Y battery replaced. I have my 2021 Model Y HV battery replaced last January. My co-worker also had his 2020 model Y battery replaced. You can go to any of the Tesla forums and see how many people it is happening to. Yes, I know that this is not a true sample as there are thousands of happy owners, but this is a failure equal to almost 1/2 the cost the car itself. It should be way more "rare", almost never. Also, the failures may not be due to typical degradation, these replacements can be due to battery cooling system failures, BMS, etc.

[@baldisaerodynamic9692]

i think the rare part is people PAYING for their replacements.....crappy batteries when new will fail early, those that made it the distance got a good one so to say..... what people fail to mention is everything else in regards to battery, cooling lines and such.

[@dotsmada2855]

That's why you have to go with the statistics rather than anecdotal evidence. I think he showed a graph of the percentages in the video.

[@climatenomad]

Adding to anecdotal comments, I've owned Teslas since 2015 and a very large percentage of my friends have Teslas of varying age. None has had any HV battery problems or replacements

[@LeeSailor123]

8 years is nothing in car age. I would be terrified of having a 20k bill potentially holding me hostage every day

[@carlkim2577]

Exactly. I drove my Benz for 14 years, very little maintenance costs.

[@BobbieGWhiz]

If the Model 3 is such a good battery in terms of longevity, as much of the Internet is repeating, why is it warranted for lesser number of miles compared to the other Tesla models?

[@Gabri3lRocha]

You answered your own question

[@CodyWickersham-n1r]

Replaced my 2013 Model S85 battery last year, $12,500 via refurb battery. Lasted 9+ years sucks as just past the warranty. Fluke as most batteries should last longer. Only caveat that made it easier was I've had Free Lifetime Supercharging. Later same year got rear-ended. Drove fine and needed some minor repairs but insurance opted to total. In a new Model S and looking forward to many years and miles via roadtrips throughout US.

[@theempire00]

$12k 😳😳😳😳😳. Not worth it imo

[@TrumpAlwaysWins.]

@@theempire00*dodge challenger engine costing 26k joins the chat*

[@glennscott3267]

Ryan, I found this video helped answer a lot of my concerns on battery replacement and costs. I plan on buying a model Y and keeping it until I cannot drive anymore, and then pass it on. I would assume in about 20 years. I will be home charging with the car in the garage at the slowest rate that achieves the charging I need and charging every night, skipping supercharging as much as possible. The cost for replacement appears high for now, but with the saturation in the marketplace so low now, I also believe the replacement cost is going nowhere but down.

[@cjflack]

why would you skip supercharging? its been proven it has no effect on the battery, i supercharge daily, my battery has lost 7 miles in 2 yeas, which is nothing. you're over thinking it man, drive it charge it wherever and whenever at whatever speeds and have fun, you'll never have a problem, don't over think it.

[@Uriah625]

Odds are the cost won’t go “down”. I speculate it will stay in that $10k range, but the new battery will be superior to what you had to begin with.

[@jdand3]

Thanks! Very informative and takes a lot of stress off my M3 ownership where I am at 4.5 years and 48 k miles.

[@ThreeDogsTwoCatsAndAWife]

For a second, I thought you’re referring to a BMW M3😂

[@corysilkenphotography308]

@@ThreeDogsTwoCatsAndAWife Makes sense- I doubt they measure miles on an M3 rangefinder camera, and that would be way more than 4.5 years old!

[@MorriesWigShop]

My experience does not mirror this. I follow Tesla guidelines for charging and battery care closely. My 2021 MY has lost 12% in 20k miles/2yrs.

[@dotsmada2855]

I have the same 2021 MY and mine is roughly the same. Max miles after 2 years 19k miles is around 295. I believe it started at 326, so about 10% degradation in the first 2 years for me. they say expect 12% degradation after 200k miles. We shall see if it only degrades 2% more over the next 180k miles. Who are we kidding though? I've never kept a car for 20 years. I'm already eyeing the cybertruck as a replacement, but will likely pass my model y to kids.

[@ngarci8040]

So is 12% in 20k miles/2yrs good…!?!

[@dotsmada2855]

@@Gay-is-_-trash Actually, hybrids are more likely to catch fire, then it's gas cars, then EVs.

[@dotsmada2855]

@@Gay-is-_-trash Um, no they don't. ICE are 60 times more likely to catch fire than EVs and hybrids are 130 times more likely than EVs. I'm sure on the rare chance that an EV does catch fire it's all over the news while an ICE is just a normal occurrence so they don't even mention it.

[@vipertube7182]

@@Gay-is-_-trash no they dont

[@SFCFilms]

6:34 the 2021 data worries me. What was it about the 2021 models that needed so many battery replacements so early on, apart from the recalls?

[@michael.sierra]

I drive a 2015 Chevy Volt. 82K Miles. No noticeable degradation. Previously I had a 2012 Leaf with 60K. Degraded significantly and had less than 20 miles range. Biggest difference is battery management and thermal management. Leafs don't heat/cool the battery while pretty much every other EV (including the Volt) has both heating and cooling of the battery and it has a much larger buffer on the top and bottom. The Leaf has just a dinky fan to blow air over the battery and doesn't have nearly as large of a buffer on top and bottom. I wouldn't worry too much about it. And if you look online used batteries out of wrecked cars are readily available.

[@safeandeffectivelol]

Great, a battery from a totaled car. What could go wrong?

[@Pieces_of_the_Puzzle]

Had a 2013 S and at 160k it had lost 12%. I have a model 3 now and at 58k it has lost just a tad less than 12%. I purchased both used so I don't know how much supercharging they had before I got them or if they were regularly charged to 100%. I rarely supercharge and keep the battery between 20-70% charged. When I got the model 3 it calculated at 17% degradation but after several months of proper treatment it now calculates to 12% degradation. Why would I purchase a 2 year old model 3 with high miles, 2 reported accidents, and showing 17% degradation? I got it for a super good deal and it came with FSD. Plus I know these batteries last a long time, EVs have little to no maintenance, and longterm they are more reliable than ICE vehicles!

[@johnfruh]

I did the same thing. I bought a 2019 standard range+ M3 with 30k miles on it in Jan 2023 just before the price drops for $38k. It had been roughly used but had FSD included. After a couple of weeks of minor fixes and polishing it looks great. It even has a carbon fiber hood and trim and so looks good in black and white. Well worth the cost.

[@MarinoRacing]

I have a 2013 model S with 180k miles. Original everything, still going!

[@aerohk]

EV is just good business. Like a phone, the battery will ultimately die and require a new car or new battery. Meanwhile you can drive a Lexus for 20 years.

[@dotsmada2855]

Yep, you're spot on. Teslas just have a bunch of cell phone batteries tapped to the undercarriage. No way that lasts. Seriously though, how much do you think it would cost in maintenance to get a Lexus to last 20 years?

[@dotsmada2855]

You can look up the annual maintenance of vehicles. By year 12 the average maintenance cost is $1,600 for a Lexus. It would keep going up year after year until it hit 20 probably at an accelerated rate. They only went up to 12 years though on the site I found (car edge). By year 12 there's a 33% chance of some major repair needed as well. Go check out a Tesla's stats. They are much much lower.

[@climatenomad]

@@dotsmada2855 plus cheaper to charge. 1/2 or 1/3 cost of gas for that Lexus which is slower

[@zhugeliange5816]

I will have had my M3 performance for 4 years this December and I don't need to replace my battery. I don't do all the tech details, but the tesla app showed me I had 290 miles upon delivery and its about 260 miles at 100% now.

[@martymar7465]

My friend just recently went through battery replacement on his Tesla Model S 2013 85 kwh pack with 230 thousand miles. Here in Europe, the cost of replacement with labor is 10000 euros, which is about 12000 dollars. It looks like they just refurbished them and put in new contactors, fuses, wiring, cooling pipes, and those 16 PCB boards that are the most common cause of failure. From my experience working on other brands battery packs, cells are never the cause of battery replacement.

[@joemcdonough7509]

That's correct. There's an independent shop here in the US (057 Tech) that confirms the same thing. It is primarily moisture leaking into the battery packs and causing corrosion on the contacts. It especially impacts Model S with VIN numbers ending under 70,000, or 2013, 2014, and early 2015 model S. I'm also noticing those who get failed batteries are those with super low miles (under 60K). My theory is that because they sit more than they drive, the batteries don't heat up enough and often to vaporize the moisture build ups and thus corrosion spreads among the pack connectors.

[@Glowinglight230]

Thanks for these videos always put them on after work to nap. Always works, which is nice

[@BigFunAgency]

Good to see that the out-of-warranty replacement rate is still pretty low, but as the Model 3 comes out of warranty, some people are going to find themselves in a terrible situation. Currently a 4 year old Model 3 is worth around $30-35k. After 8 years it will very likely be worth less than the cost to replace its battery. That’s what the insurance industry calls a TOTAL loss, in other words, you’re better off scrapping the car than making the repair. Even if the battery doesn’t need replacement in 8 years, what will happen to resale value as buyers realize they could be buying a car with an impending $15-20k repair bill? Less of an issue with the more expensive S and X, but the 3 and Y may see their values nearly collapse when the warranties expire.

[@coooooool12342]

Tesla have a strong floor around 20k

[@TB-up4xi]

Will end up being a bigger non-issue than the Y2K bug when everybody realises that the battery failure even at 8 years is very low. Nobody is thinking hey that 3 year old BMW M3 with 45k miles only has a 4 year 50k mile warranty I might need a $20k engine replacement soon so it's worthless. The average EV battery pack for the model 3 will last many many years past the warranty date.

[@shane864]

A "dead" battery is $10,000 in highly refined rare earth metals that are 100% recyclable. This is a non issue.

[@BigFunAgency]

@@shane864 It’s an issue for the people who are paying up to $15,000 or more for a new battery! LOL

[@shane864]

@@BigFunAgency Now do blown up engines and transmissions that cost the same or more to replace and make an ICE car completely unusable, where the hypothetical worn out battery is still going to be able to drive quite a bit until its repaired. It's a non issue.

[@Andersljungberg]

If you only use fast chargers, the degradation will be significantly faster on a Tesla 3. Maybe the cooling is not good enough. . Not all people on this planet live in their own houses. There is something called apartments. If you're lucky, you live in a country where there is an electricity connection in the parking lot outside the apartment that can be used

[@climatenomad]

What are you basing this statement on from a data perspective. I know I've seen studies that showed *zero* statistical difference between cars that were mostly fast charged for their miles and ones that were never fast charged. Why? Because the cooling system and battery management system keep the cells in an optimal range to avoid doing any damage using the fast charger that would exceed the levels from 110v charging. It's the *heat* that would cause more wear but Tesla doesn't allow it to get hot enough to cause that issue during fast charging. Incidentally I read research at Stanford that looked at lithium ion battery charging at the electron level and discovered that the charging isn't incremental. The materials go from "not charged" to "charged" all at once at that level. There is no slower or faster rate of charging other than how many of them you are flipping at once from uncharged to charged at that level which of course doesn't add any additional stress regardless of speed. Of course heat is generated in this process and the temp of the cells during charging have some optimal temp range which must be maintained. According to the battery day high level discussion on the 4680, the size of the cell vs the physical tab connectors has a big impact along with the composition of the anodes in terms of heat generated, and thus safe charging speed. Net/net: I've seen no evidence that fast charging is any different than only using a wall outlet. One last random data point: my buddy and I both have 2019 Tesla Model 3 Long Ranges. I have charged mine 75% from Superchargers and 25% other and now have 75k miles on mine. He's charged his 95% at home and has only 25k miles. Using the imperfect metric of displayed range as a proxy for general battery degradation yielded a 2 mile difference between our cars which is lost in the statistical noise

[@CJB_B95L]

Thanks for the info. I was misguided in only charging every few days thinking that was using less cycles, a factor you see often in battery longevity descriptions. E.g. 10,000 recharging cycles. I will plug in daily from now on but will probably set limit to 70% as I don’t drive very far on a typical day.

[@Zokeh]

Stay above 20 %, don't go over 80 %. Avoid superchargers if possible - slow charging is healthier for the battery, as it offsets more heat in the cells (heat is the #1 degeneration source). Every now and then charge to 100 %, just to balance the BMS/battery.

[@brandontapia4155]

What’s the cost in 2023 is way more.

[@robsshedoftech6457]

In Cornwall in the UK, Lithium has been found dissolved in water about 1 to 2km down - industrial extraction is being worked on.

[@jefferrrson1x]

Fantastic video as usual Ryan. Really appreciate your efforts in your editing and information. I knew most of this already as I researched this, and you conveniently just put all of that together in this video. Thanks GOAT! I’m saving up for a model Y and hopefully I can use that for a decade or so! Woooo

[@jpegjpg]

Some people don't realize that there is no secondary market for ev batteries yet. If you have a used car and the engine needs to be replaced it cost $5000 because there is a market to rebuild engines. If you have to put in a brand new engine from the dealer it would cost $15K. This is why the replacement costs are so high. Once there are enough batteries in the supply chain the cost will come down significantly.

[@Xuyesi]

China is going to sell EVs for $15k in a few years.

[@tiloalo]

Also you can repair an engine in most case, replacement are very rare. Tesla on the other end doesn't repair your vattery but only sell you a new one.

[@rockrap6240]

@@Xuyesi Their EV’s are junk. Plus they have a high propensity of catching fire. There are photos of new EV’s parked in fields as far as the eye can see because the manufacturers sell the cars back to themselves in order to keep receiving government subsidies. Not a good business model.

[@andrewhamilton1237]

I bought a Model Y in late 2021. Just had to have the battery completely replaced. It was no big deal; Tesla replaced it for free under warranty, the replacement took a approximately one week, and they provided me with a loaner Model 3 while I waited for my car to be fixed. I was a little surprised that my Model Y already needed a replacement, but getting a replacement was very quick and easy.

[@baldisaerodynamic9692]

while that sucks, think about this....many cars need engine replacements or a transmission replacement in 1-4 years too....its just different parts in the same industry.

[@yasserblanquet]

why was your battery replaced?

[@Chevy2U]

Details would be helpful

[@JFDJubileeRiver]

@@baldisaerodynamic9692 Which make or model requires engine or transmission replacement in 1-4 years? I’ve never seen that stats before. Not even from the big three…

[@baldisaerodynamic9692]

@@JFDJubileeRiver then you are blind. ford bronco is an easy one. GM 10 speed transmissions, fords too. eco boost 4 cyl. bro, the list goes on and on.

[@chrisnewman7281]

I think there’s a big difference between the battery in an EV and one in a smart phone much much different. smart phone don’t have active and a battery management system designed to preserve the life of the battery prematurely replacing a battery is a bit of an apples, and oranges conversation

[@Allan_A]

I drove a used 2017 Chevy Bolt EV from 49K miles up to 146K miles in a little over 2 years. My experience was about 8% degradation, and I was charging to 100% daily and often got below 5% doing rideshare in Minnesota. I was still getting over 240 miles per charge when GM bought back my car. My full ownership experience is on my channel if you are interested.

[@johncahill3644]

The Model S has been around for 11 years now and no big call for replacement battery packs. I’m not concerned about my Tesla personally, but very curious to see which of the “competitors” reveal inadequate battery design or management systems as they also get longer in the tooth.

[@adoniswilliams3046]

I have a 2014 Model S85. My drive unit went out at 43,000 miles and was fortunately replaced under warranty. My high voltage battery went out at 55,000 miles and I was 1 month outside of the 8 year time warranty so Tesla refused to help and sent me a bill for $21,000. I absolutely baby this car, as you can see from the low mileage. I followed every charging recommendation and prior to the battery failing I had very little degradation. My vehicle still drives as if it was brand new, I just only get 92 miles per charge now. I think that's the most frustrating part, I would almost rather Tesla let me completely destroy the battery than only allow 92 miles (about 70 real world miles) at a time. Long story short, buy an extended warranty and buy new. You would be a brave person to buy a used Tesla and risk your battery failing shortly after buying it and facing a $21,000 bill.

[@lowkeygrinders]

I’m stuck in a similar situation what solution have you came up with ?

[@adoniswilliams3046]

@lowkeygrinders5873 There are a couple of after market shops that will replace the battery for $7,500. I've thought about going that route because I still have a loan on the vehicle. I could get it fixed and then sell it and cut my losses or just pray it doesn't happen again. In the meantime I've just been driving 90 miles at a time, which is all it will charge to.

[@CXLEBB]

Mine drives but charges to 256 miles im out of warrenty and battery needs replacement the quoted 16,000$

[@lowkeygrinders]

@@CXLEBB what year it yours ?

[@CXLEBB]

@@lowkeygrinders 2013 P85+ 66k miles

[@simeonellinger2064]

My fear is vehicle damage out of warranty. The battery might not die of old age but it can be destroyed easily. And while the same is true of an ICE, the costs are usually lower. I hear of insurance companies declaring EVs scrap after a fender bender.

[@matthewprather7386]

This is a valid topic, of course! But think of all of the longevity problems ICE cars regularly suffer: Direct injection fouling intake valves.. Cylinder heads on Pentastar V6s crack.. Valvetrain failures on Chrysler hemis.. Overheating problems on GM V8s.. GM and Ford 10-speed transmission failures.. Exhaust manifolds cracking on all sorts of engines.. Piston slap on both Ford and GM engines.. Cylinder liner failure on various BMW engines. Engine bearing failures on various BMW engines.. “Critical tolerance” engines from many manufacturers destroying themselves when timing belts break.. On and on with the design and manufacturing flaws from ICE vehicles. I guess it’s the devil you know! 😝

[@JBoy340a]

As the owner of many BMWs Turbos were the things that we replaced. Ran around $7500 for new turbo and wastegate and occurred in 80-90K mile range.

[@matthewprather7386]

@@JBoy340a ouch.

[@simeonellinger2064]

My Lexus is getting close to 260k miles and still going. IDK why American cars have gotten so bad, we don't even make cool looking cars anymore, in my opinion. Not that my Lexus looks amazing either ('05 rx330)

[@MrCarfleet]

Yes, bad engineering and poor maintenance happen, but I have several vehicles and collector vehicles near and over 300K on original engines and transmissions and still running good. My 85 MB 300D has 430K on all original driveline. I only retired it from daily driving due to the heater air flap diaphragm ($5 part) failing in the open position letting in cold air and thus preventing defrost during cold/damp days. (requires removing the dash and console to fix) However, I would love to convert it to hybrid so I drive it as an EV in town and then diesel on the highway when needed. Been following the Edison Motors channel for possible projects for my vintage pickups though. Maybe someday this MB if I can find a way to fit batteries and inverters without impacting the body and passenger space much. In the meantime considering a Model Y, but not if battery replacement totals the car after 10yrs.

[@matthewprather7386]

@@MrCarfleet I had a 300D for awhile.. Nice car. But rare. And underpowered, even though it was turbocharged. The market tends to select cars that have a lot more performance than a 1980s turbodiesel. Given the demand for such performance, changes are needed. Tradeoffs in materials, design, durability, maintenance, cost, etc.

[@lyfandeth]

If I'm unable to park in the shade, and willing to only use the middle 70% of my battery charge, and just a level 2 charger...oops, I'll also to park for long periods at public charge points. And wait for a 500 mile range, so I can reliably use 70% of that while sleeping in the car at those chargepoints. But, maybe in ten more years things will get better and "full self driving" won't be advertising fraud?

[@sot8343]

You compared EV battery degradation to phone battery. Neglected to mention that phone batteries are optimized for size and planned obsolescence. EV batteries have more options to protect the battery like liquid cooling.

[@climatenomad]

the bigger issue is the lack of cooling which is the main thing preventing longer battery life in the phone when fast charging I suspect

[@alexnutcasio936]

Didnt Andy Slye already do this a few days ago? Do I hear an echo?? This is why ICE vehicles are still superior at this time to BEV.

[@simeonellinger2064]

I wouldn't say completely superior, but EVs definitely have a ways to go. I do think they are the future though.

[@arnold_2523]

Really a NON issue for modern EV’s. There are also more third party repair option which are alot cheaper then a replacement.

[@nathanielfrye55]

Do you know where these companies are located ?

[@safeandeffectivelol]

$20,000 is a non-issue 🤣🤣🤣

[@LOVEqualsLOVEchannel]

Sooo all the money you ‘save’ on gas you use towards a replacement battery.

[@frederickmartin6998]

I'm doubtful that a structural battery pack can be replaced for $22k. I watched Sandy Munro's company dismantle one. Just to get to the battery pack the car had to be almost completely disassembled. Plus, embedded in that pink structural foam it's unlikely anyone will be able to replace individual cells or connectors.

[@thebrain7693]

can't replace individual cells on any battery for Tesla, it won't last..

[@paradigmshift7]

Those are for the new 4680 cells which are rumored to last much longer (~1M miles) than the much more common 18650 and 2170 cells, which don't have the pink foam.

[@frederickmartin6998]

@@thebrain7693 That may be true but I did see one KZbin video where an aftermarket business did replace 2-3 individual cells plus several battery management chips. That couldn't have done on a structural battery pack.

[@frederickmartin6998]

@@paradigmshift7 Have you seen Tesla state that the 4680's would last one million miles? All I've seen is Elon stating that as a goal/likelihood. So far Tesla still only guarantees greater than 70% for 8 years / 120,000 miles.

[@paradigmshift7]

@@frederickmartin6998 The 4680s are currently not even scaled for mass production yet, so of course I havent seen it happen... YET. I also know that the truth is somewhere in the middle, but goes to show if they're putting pink foam down on those batteries, they don't expect to be replacing them for the life of the car. Guess we'll see what's what. Either way, again as stated on the video, costs of battery replacement is expected to go down as scale of production increases, so even worst case scenario, IF you have to replace the batteries, it will still cost less than what you would have paid to maintain an ICE for the same amount of miles. And that's a big IF, as it is far more probable you won't have to.

[@crabkilla]

These batteries are way cheaper per kWh than a Tesla Powerwall. I need to buy a Model S battery and attach it to the wall in my garage and then use it as battery backup :-)

[@siddharthasangwan8280]

When does Tesla insurance come out in PA

[@EvgeniTalks]

Bro same

[@Javaman92]

My 2012 LEAF just lost it's first battery health bar. While the range was never good, at almost 100K miles it is still going strong. I have replaced a wheel bearing and the wipers.

[@tellyboy17]

I think EVs will have a residual value problem when they hit 8 years because if the battery dies after that the car is a total loss.

[@baldisaerodynamic9692]

this. someone can put 12k down on a new car with a warranty than dumping 12k in a car that has no more warranty, and if anything else goes wrong then its always money out of pocket...door handles, seats, computers, BCMs, suspension, steering rack, drive unit, etc etc. best to trade it in with some of the battery warranty left to preserve some value, or if you suspect the battery is getting worse ditch it and let someone else deal with it while its still a useful car.

[@dotsmada2855]

Should be factored in the price when you buy an old EV, just like any other car that's no longer under warranty.

[@tellyboy17]

@@dotsmada2855 But how do you factor in the fact that a part with a 10% failure rate, further increasing over time will instantly make the car worthless...

[@JBoy340a]

@@tellyboy17 you factor in like the probability of transmission or engine failing after 8 years. You check the statistics and play the odds.

[@Andersljungberg]

Replacing individual battery cells Or disconnecting individual battery cells that are faulty is significantly cheaper.. A single battery cell can be the cause of a fault. I have heard that there are those who do that

[@fraepidu]

Great informational video Ryan!

[@drwisdom1]

Since the warranty is long it seems to minimize risk you should dump your Tesla in the 7th year of ownership.

[@MrArtist7777]

My '12 Chev Volt has 110k miles on it and has only lost about 15% capacity and still works perfect, and we charge it every day, ~10% - 100%, due to the small batt. size. Just ordered a Model Y today and confident it will last many years with very, very little degradation.

[@jjcsystems]

Thanks for the input. I have a 19 Model X. 52k miles on it so far. I will drive the vehicle until it dies.

[@AndrewTSq]

Dont forget that you might have to replace motor also. A new motor is around $10k + labour.

[@climatenomad]

I'm curious. Have you heard of anyone having to replace any Model 3/Y or recent Model S/X that use the updated variations of the Model 3 motors? The original Model S motors had a design flaw that caused them to need replace/refurb fairly frequently but I've never heard of anyone with the modern designs having problems. I'm sure there are some (all things have examples of failures) but it must be super rare

[@ryanblanco2835]

I had my 2013 P85 Model S battery replaced in July 2022. It was considerably cheaper than the prices quoted in the video, so that's good news for all! Being that Tesla does not make 85 kilowatt batteries any longer, it's actually a 90 kW battery software restricted to 85 kilowatts. It's an extra $3,000 to unlock the extra 5 kilowatts, in my opinion not worth it. The total cost of the battery came to $11,274 + $529 in labor to install it. So $12,676 with California sales tax out the door! The new replacement battery comes with a 4-year warranty.

[@jml9550]

Did you replace the battery pack with new Tesla batteries or remanufactured packs? Thx.

[@DowneyPools-sb1tw]

Should I buy a 2013 p60 original battery with low miles??? 25k

[@ca8281]

@@DowneyPools-sb1tw why not just put that money down on a new one or a M3/MY and get something brand new?

[@adoniswilliams3046]

What shop did you have this replacement completed at? I live just north of you in Oregon and was just quoted $21,000 for the battery replacement in my 2014 S85 from Tesla of Portland. I find it hard to believe a Tesla dealership in California would be charging less, or did you have it replaced at an aftermarket repair shop?

[@Gabri3lRocha]

⁠​⁠@@ca8281because then you would in essence be paying $45k after taxes for a new battery. Dang some people are really bad with money. I mean if your rich you do what you want but you’re suggestions is ridiculous

[@polarbearigloo]

So for my driving I need 90%. If 80% was 300 miles this would be another story. But driving Uber everyday I need max mileage

[@Brettdyt]

A $20,000 replacement battery will wipe out two decades of fuel savings. The car is going to the junkyard at that point.

[@climatenomad]

First of all they aren't $20 - seem mostly around 17k roughly. Secondly did you add up your reduced running costs? Let's say you drive a normal 15k a year. Electricity costs average about 1/3 the cost of gas. Average mpg for a car anywhere close to Tesla performance is very lucky to be 25 mpg. Let's do the math (ignoring interest you could even make on that savings annually): 15000 miles/25 miles per gallon * $4/gallon average* .66 (2/3) to account for difference in fuel price + $50 oil and filter changes = $1,648 per year in additional costs over the costs of a Tesla if you drive a gas car. After only ten years (especially if you put that savings in a bank account generating interest) you could pay for a new battery pack for the Tesla.

[@bobsilva6222]

Thanks Ryan. I always enjoy learning something from all your videos. Keep ‘em coming. Have you done a video on the Tesla CCS charger and when Tesla will allow you to set as destination or other manner to precondition the battery. Do any of the aftermarket apps have a manual setting to do this? Thanks again.

[@lindam.1502]

My Tesla Model 3 app allows me to precondition my battery every weekday at 830am and then 3.30pm for commuting

[@bobsilva6222]

@@lindam.1502 thank you, but that is home. My question was meant to address going on a trip and setting a CCS charger as the destination. Car will not precondition. Only hack I have seen is to navigate to a SC near the CCS then add the CCS as a stop after your car starts to precondition for the SC. Then you can delete the SC and precondition will continue. Any way else?

[@richardgarrett8087]

2017 S with 130K mi. Almost no degradation. Mostly charge at home, max 240VAC@20A. Charge at relatives homes from clothes dryer. Dryer limited to 24A. 4 cents per mile. 200Kmi., only spent $8K on fuel. Saved $16K over typical gas car. Also three times as efficient. One third the pollution. Battery technology will evolve away from lithium. Gas cars have had 100+ years to evolve. Why expect electric cars to advance exponentially faster?

[@FireMunki63]

I think you need to mention how much a V8 5.4 L New Engine would cost. Engine Out, Factory Purchased New Engine (Not a recon) then the Shipping and then the Fitting etc.. | I can guarantee you will be up there with EV batteries and labour costs. I remember buying a brand new Ford Gearbox (fitted myself) and it was a small fortune. I bought it because there were no secondhand ones available because it was a new gearbox. My point is Context. Where is the comparison cost with ICE? Now go for a BMW or AUDI engine brand new! Yikes. There really is nothing to fear.

[@MrGoogle87]

Well, I have worked on cars my whole life. It is always relatively easy to partially replace parts… Never had a customer need to buy a factory new engine (and you dont know them Either) For the glued batteries that is not really the case (hope my Y battery lives long).. Batteries die rately, but they do and if that is yours… HURT!

[@svenhodaka9145]

Yup, my Audi 2.0L turbo with 168,000 kms needs to be replaced. (severe oil consumption) $12,000 CDN and that’s if the clutch is OK!😲

[@jimr7731]

The frequency of an ICE power train replacement is rare. A battery replacement is not if but when. A battery can only handle so many charge and discharge cycles.

[@phishstyx]

@@MrGoogle87 Me too, but that’s less and less practical with modern ICE vehicles. These days ICE engines are covered with electric actuators and control modules that require specialized tools and software to work on. Even over just the last 5 years anything other than budget wheels is going to have a complex engine and god help you if it’s a hybrid.

[@jimr7731]

@@skellington2000 comparing engines to batteries is silly. Battery is a fuel tank. Electric motor is the power plant and it’s pretty solid. The fuel storage is the area of concern.

[@HelloMyFriend_]

IMO Niro are doing it right with Battery Swapping Stations. You'll never get a faulty battery and need not worry about degradation. EV companies need to come together and develop a mutual design for batteries so that all can be swapped at any station.

[@kurtrhoney121]

What most people fail to realize or understand is that the battery composition will be forever changing and improving into the future. 5 or ten years time could see vast improvement in both efficiency and charging rate. If they are not making the packs easily swappable they shouldn't be sold today. Cars will always need servicing.

[@BrownDaddy007]

Realistically, 30-40 years may see a significant improvement in battery energy density, based on the last 100-years of battery progress.

[@jaimepena1877]

I already drove my m 3 for 194000 miles and it lost around 10÷ of it's capacity. I have to charge it to 90÷

[@mathieusturkenboom]

These cars are built like tanks Commercial drivers can bring them to 1million miles im sure

[@TheBriansle]

what was the maintenance costs over that time?

[@jaimepena1877]

@@TheBriansle mmmm 5 sets of tires, 2. 12 volt batteries, one windshild,one window adjuster it was getting stuck. A service to the fronk was not opening. And one alignment. I always charge it at home very little use supper charged.

[@mathieusturkenboom]

@@TheBriansle im on my second tesla, both at 100k km and only thing is cabin air filter and tires

[@1JohnnyCruiser]

More and more manufacturers are voiding warranty claims saying owner misuse. If you run over something or have scuff marks on the bottom they can claim driver damage. Kia in Canada has done this. Now I would think a good comprehensive coverage should cover that if your limit is high enough. Another KZbinr got a $2200 charge for some battery charger control module on his model Y that got fried because he accidentally let the charge get to low.

[@betitos11]

Im watching Tesla videos because we're planning to buy one in 2024. I think you meant that the other way around, just about any ICE vehicle will last over 200k miles where only time will tell how many ev's make it that far 😁

[@practicalguy973]

I was planning the same to buy a Model 3 in 2024. But after a lot of research I decided against it for now. EVs are still figuring themselves out. The battery is the main issue for me. There are enough reports of physical damage from either rain, pot holes or something on the road hitting the underside of the car and they void the warranty and I do a lot of highway driving. I can't buy something that costs 25 percent of the entire vehicle for one part that is out of my control. Also government regulations are already starting for EVs in the UK with damaged batteries that need to be quarantined 15 meters from other vehicles after battery damage is reported due to fire risk so we might see more additional insurance costs associated around the world eventually with EVs.People continue to compare ICE engine replacements as the same costs but its not the same. ICE engines are unlikely to be physically damaged and require a full engine replacement. Actually my friend had a something hit his ICE car engine on the highway, it damaged the radiator and one pulley on the engine, it was repaired for $1200. Maybe in 5-6 years I'll look into a Tesla again and hope there are better battery right to repair laws.

[@xAgyex]

It’s gotten really bad out here. Mostly 2012 to 2014 MS cars are bricking left and right…right now. Please do more videos on this. Lots of TMC folks with horror stories.

[@Udontwannaknow_]

Source? This doesn’t seem true.

[@twistacatz]

@@Udontwannaknow_ he said TMC.

[@thebrain7693]

need to compare to amount of cars sold, TMC mostly has folks with issues. Still a low percentage of cars with dying batteries...

[@sa.t.2507]

Like many others, I have been concerned with loss of 100% indicated battery range on one of my Model 3s. My P3D (build date 9/13/2018, delivery date 10/8/2018) had gotten down to 270.3 miles at 100% charge on January 20, 2020, at about 30,700 miles, which is a loss of 40.8 miles since the car was new. I posted about going to the service center to talk with them about battery degradation, which I did on March 9, 2020. It was a great service appointment and the techs at the Houston Westchase service center paid attention to my concerns and promised to follow up with a call from the lead virtual tech team technician. I detailed this service visit in the following post: Reduced Range - Tesla Issued a Service Bulletin for possible fix While that service visit was great, the real meat of addressing the problem came when I spoke to the virtual tech team lead. He told me some great things about the Model 3 battery and BMS. With the knowledge of what he told me, I formulated a plan to address it myself. So here is the deal on the Model 3 battery and why many of us might be seeing this capacity degradation. The BMS system is not only responsible for charging and monitoring of the battery, but computing the estimated range. The way it does this is to correlate the battery's terminal voltage (and the terminal voltage of each group of parallel cells) to the capacity. The BMS tries to constantly refine and calibrate that relationship between terminal voltage and capacity to display the remaining miles. For the BMS to execute a calibration computation, it needs data. The primary data it needs to to this is what is called the Open Circuit Voltage (OCV) of the battery and each parallel group of cells. The BMS takes these OCV readings whenever it can, and when it has enough of them, it runs a calibration computation. This lets the BMS now estimate capacity vs the battery voltage. If the BMS goes for a long time without running calibration computations, then the BMS's estimate of the battery's capacity can drift away from the battery's actual capacity. The BMS is conservative in its estimates so that people will not run out of battery before the indicator reads 0 miles, so the drift is almost always in the direction of estimated capacity < actual capacity. So, when does the BMS take OCV readings? To take a set of OCV readings, the main HV contactor must be open, and the voltages inside the pack for every group of parallel cells must stabilize. How long does that take? Well, interestingly enough, the Model 3 takes a lot longer for the voltages to stabilize than the Model S or X. The reason is because of the battery construction. All Tesla batteries have a resistor in parallel with every parallel group of cells. The purpose of these resistors is for pack balancing. When charging to 100%, these resistors allow the low cells in the parallel group to charge more than the high cells in the group, bringing all the cells closer together in terms of their state of charge. However, the drawback to these resistors is that they are the primary cause of vampire drain. Because Tesla wanted the Model 3 battery to be the most efficient it could be, Tesla decided to decrease the vampire drain as much as possible. One step they took to accomplish this was to increase the value of all of these resistors so that the vampire drain is minimized. The resistors in the Model 3 packs are apparently around 10x the value of the ones in the Model S/X packs. So what does this do to the BMS? Well, it makes the BMS wait a lot longer to take OCV readings, because the voltages take 10x longer to stabilize. Apparently, the voltages can stabilize enough to take OCV readings in the S/X packs within 15-20 minutes, but the Model 3 can take 3+ hours. This means that the S/X BMS can run the calibration computations a lot easier and lot more often than the Model 3. 15-20 minutes with the contactor open is enough to get a set of OCV readings. This can happen while you're out shopping or at work, allowing the BMS to get OCV readings while the battery is at various states of charge, both high and low. This is great data for the BMS, and lets it run a good calibration fairly often. On the Model 3, this doesn't happen. With frequent small trips, no OCV readings ever get taken because the voltage doesn't stabilize before you drive the car again. Also, many of us continuously run Sentry mode whenever we're not at home, and Sentry mode keeps the contactor engaged, thus no OCV readings can be taken no matter how long you wait. For many Model 3's, the only time OCV readings get taken is at home after a battery charge is completed, as that is the only time the car gets to open the contactor and sleep. Finally, 3 hours later, OCV readings get taken. But that means that the OCV readings are ALWAYS at your battery charge level. If you always charge to 80%, then the only data the BMS is repeatedly collecting is 80% OCV readings. This isn't enough data to make the calibration computation accurate. So even though the readings are getting taken, and the calibration computation is being periodically run, the accuracy of the BMS never improves, and the estimated capacity vs. actual capacity continues to drift apart. So, knowing all of this, here's what I did: 1. I made it a habit to make sure that the BMS got to take OCV readings whenever possible. I turned off Sentry mode at work so that OCV readings could be taken there. I made sure that TeslaFi was set to allow the car to sleep, because if it isn't asleep, OCV readings can't get taken. 2. I quit charging every day. Round-trip to work and back for me is about 20% of the battery's capacity, and I used to normally charge to 90%. I changed my standard charge to 80%, and then I began charging the car at night only every 3 days. So day 1 gets OCV readings at 80% (after the charge is complete), day 2 at about 60% (after 1 work trip), and day 3 at about 40% (2 work trips). I arrive back home from work with about 20% charge on that last day, and if the next day isn't Saturday, then I charge. If the next day is Saturday (I normally don't go anywhere far on Saturday), then I delay the charge for a 4th day, allowing the BMS to get OCV readings at 20%. So now my BMS is getting data from various states of charge throughout the range of the battery. 3. I periodically (once a month or so) charge to 95%, then let the car sleep for 6 hours, getting OCV readings at 95%. Don't do this at 100%, as it's not good for the battery to sit with 100% charge. 4. If I'm going to take a long drive i.e. road trip, then I charge to 100% to balance the battery, then drive. I also try to time it so that I get back home with around 10% charge, and if I can do that, then I don't charge at that time. Instead, let the car sleep 6 hours so it gets OCV readings at 10%. These steps allowed the BMS to get many OCV readings that span the entire state of charge of the battery. This gets it good data to run an accurate calibration computation. 12:26

[@dillonk5573]

That sounds like way too much of a headache to do just to drive a car. I will continue driving my Corolla until it dies then pick up a used model 3 after that prob in 5 years from now.

[@climatenomad]

Another thing to note: I bought the Tesla with the most range in 2015: a Model S with the new AWD dual motor. It was rated at 269 miles of range new. So that's equivalent to the degradation on your Model 3 :-)

[@Magicinstalls]

You forgot to mention the cost of reconditioning a battery replacing the defective modules is only around $5000

[@youtubevanced4900]

The real problem is that it will never be with spending $20k+ on an 8 year old car. It means the whole car is effectively scrap or land fill. The argument about cheaper batteries over time is complete BS. The demand for new batteries is increasing faster than new production can provide which is driving the price up. That's not going to change within the next 20 years. We will be selling our model 3 each year to make sure we never have to worry about it. It works for us at the moment because the tax break we get for buying new means we can sell the 1 year old car for more than we bought the car for.

[@rockrap6240]

I’m tired of subsidizing EV owners.

[@climatenomad]

well you must be right. Look at all those junkyards full of Teslas being scrapped. Kind of easy to prove you know nothing

[@rockrap6240]

@@climatenomad Of course he’s right. No one buys a used EV. A vast majority of Americans don’t want one. The electrical infrastructure to support EVs doesn’t exist. EVs are far too expensive for a majority of people. EVs don’t work well in the cold and heat. There haven’t been enough Teslas produced to fill junkyards. But you can see hundreds of thousands of new EVs rotting away in field upon field in China. I could go on and and on. But you get my point. I just finished a trip from Delaware to Oklahoma and spotting an EV on the road was indeed a rare sight. So you see it’s pretty easy to prove you have a lot to learn. The cult of Tesla runs deep.

[@whenspringbegins]

Take Elon's tweets with a spoonful of salt? More like a bucket of salt!

[@dotsmada2855]

usually the expression is "pinch of salt", so he did upgrade it already. I tend to agree with you though, a bucket is probably more like it for most tweets he makes.

[@DCGreenZone]

I knew someone who worked in a Toyota dealership, she said they never replaced a Prius battery, this was around 6 or 7 years ago.... they typically didn't go Roman candle all that often. The new ones are quite fetching.

[@EnthusiastsGarage]

These numbers seems to be a lot more reasonable than some of the outrageous replacement quotes from other brands.

[@VegasShuffle]

I’ve replaced the battery on my model X 4 times in 3 years. I guess I’m just unlucky…

[@paulscott1759]

Under warranty I hope

[@kangkurt]

My battery got issue right before warranty expired, which was year and half ago. The new battery i got failed again this week. They want me to pay 14,000 + tax for refurb lol

[@CXLEBB]

what did you do?

[@Xuyesi]

What did you end up doing?

[@Miniweet9167]

My ev is now up to 150,000 km. And of course there is a bit of degradation but it’s mostly due to the fact that it’s no longer produced and I have to invest in artisanal cooling system part reparation to keep it going but it still runs great. It’s the same as anything you buy. Replace or repair. I’ve had a Subaru forester cost more in repairs than the fuel I saved in over 10 years of ev driving.

[@BriBCG]

One thing people should know that's completely absent from this video is that the batteries degrade over time. Don't expect a 10 year old battery to still be good because it's under 200k. Notice the warranties are for an amount of miles OR years. Just because it can charge to 90% doesn't mean it won't fail and charge to 0% tomorrow. I can see a lot of people getting burned by these facts in the future in the used market.

[@Andersljungberg]

But degradation en The battery is reduced number of miles in range. There may be people who do not accept a car that has a range shorter than 248 miles. how many would use a mobile phone that only has 70% of battery capacity left. I suspect they would replace the battery before the capacity has dropped that low

[@bgzwlz5119]

Saying that battery replacement costs are “expected to come down over time”, is the most ridiculous justification for the idea that the cost is not as bad as it truly is! The fact remains that someone buying a used electric car and paying 25k-35k for it only to find that the battery is shot a year later and you have to come up with 20k to replace the battery is absurd! What happens if you don’t have 20k, get a 2nd car loan? This BS will render used EV’s worthless once the consumer catches on. I would never buy a used EV!

[@adoniswilliams3046]

You are spot on! This is exactly what happened to me 7 months after buying my Model S. Now I have a $40k car loan on a Tesla with only 55k miles and a failed battery that they are quoting me $21k for. To make matters worse, I still had 6 months of warranty left when I bought the car. The drive went out 4 months into owning the car so it was covered under the warranty. 3 months later the battery failed less than 30 days after my warranty expired and Tesla refused to help me, even though I had an alert come up on my car about an issue with charging. The alert appeared while I was still in warranty, but the service center was booked out so long all I could do was schedule an appointment. The alert mysteriously cleared itself so I cancelled the appointment. Less than 2 months later the battery failed and they claim the alert had nothing to do with the failure. Long story short, the other issue with Tesla is they control the car and can literally clear alerts over air without fixing issues that could fall under their responsibility.

[@climatenomad]

you're so right. That's why junkyards are full of Teslas. Oh wait...

[@bannor99]

the impact & cost of structural batteries to recycling & replacement will be interesting to see

[@safeandeffectivelol]

It costs Tesla $7000 to recycle each battery now. That's not 100% recycle either

[@waynehewett4017]

See how much range you get in your tesla when its cold or hot outside ?

[@rossishima]

Do you get credit applied to the new pack by turning in your old pack. The old pack should have significant value-still good batteries remaining, bms electronics, etc.

[@evgrandpa365]

Well they put the model 3 in the same class as the BMW 300 series. A 328i BMW engine will last 200-250 thousand miles if well maintained before needing to be replaced. Estimated cost to replace the engine is 13,000 to 15,000 dollars. That's if the trans doesn't need replaced. And of course there always some exceptions.

[@BonanzaPilot]

There is significant cost to maintaining that BMW engine to get to the 200-250k mile mark too

[@gilleschirignan1279]

I have 138,000 miles on my 2013 Tesla model S. Max range has decreased from 155 miles to 120miles but I live 10 miles from work so its fine.

[@2cats1guy]

My M3 LR RWD is still kicking at 175,000 Km’s. Little if any degradation. Even if I had to get a new battery sometime after the warranty it wouldn’t bother me. $20k is still cheaper than buying a brand new car and it would then keep going another 15-20 years.

[@quintessentialk]

Man there’s Model 3s on KZbin with 1 million miles on the same battery!

[@346pro]

M3???

[@danandrews2650]

At these battery replacement costs, please dont tout no/low maintenance over ICE.

[@climatenomad]

so let me get this straight. You are trying to say that gas cars are the same or better than an EV when it comes to maintenance. Lol

[@vito9811]

I have a 2019 Model X Raven with unlimited free supercharging. My wife drives it and she drives ALOT. 143,000 miles later, big pack freaked out and I was told by Tesla it was bad. Replaced under warranty. The replacement pack is NOT new, it is remanufactured. Disappointed that the pack had to be replaced and makes me wary! This pack is supercharged a fair amount, so maybe that was the issue?

[@climatenomad]

everyone who has looked at this in detail has seen no impact on battery lifetime or degradation percent from supercharging which matches the Stanford battery research (assuming temperature is correctly controlled by the BMS in the car)

[@ericgold3840]

This is a very good review of the topic But (there is always a but), I don't really buy the stats related to frequency of pack replacement because they cannot include all those cars that needed pack replacement but it did not happen for whatever reason (cost almost certainly being #1). I get the impression that the Tesla 85 kWh pack in particular does not age well, so I would not extrapolate from that model to other EVs. Moreover, we have no insight into warranty Vs non-warranty replacements, and for what reasons. And lastly, we are comparing high(er) value Tesla cars to low(er) value Nissan LEAFs, that have out of warranty replacement costs that have quite different pack_cost/car_value values. I realize that no better data is available, but what we have is not really useful.

[@10mbc]

Usually, people don't replace batteries because of the expense, not because it's not needed.

[@fortyyearfitness]

Define not needed