TF2 - The Stickybomb Launcher VS the Quickiebomb Launcher

[@Toofty]

Update: 1) Thank you to everyone who has offered help on maths! I have several people working to help me figure out how likely it is that these results are statistically significant, so far it's looking good though! I've had one estimate that we can say with 86% confidence that the QBL has a higher avg. D/M than the SBL. 2) I of course know the stats of the QBL (including the additional damage on charged shots) but I decided against putting them in my video as I find that a little mundane 3) The test was likely effected by my own bias too but if anything that bias likely favoured the SBL, one because I’ve been using the SBL for years and two, I had assumed the SBL was better going in. 4) These days I tend to use the Sticky Jumper when playing Demoman

[@yiyang4445]

Great! Just a reminder, normally sample size have to be larger than 30 or 40 in order to fit the sample means into a normal sampling distributuion. There are indeed other methods but using a normal sampling distribution is the classic. Using statistics to judge weapon seems really cool and I am sure it would be helpful in compliment with subjective reasoning. Good luck!

[@elkpants1280]

hey Toofty, what you might consider doing for a future video like this, what would be having viewers or friends you trust run some of these experiments, they don't need to be perfectly executed since you would have a large enough sample size that any outliers or mistaken method should be minimized. Outsourcing!

[@bradfastsnubwarde3523]

Hmm... interesting. My instinct RE: Iron Bomber + Quickie Launcher is that it would not be quite as good as the raw damage numbers suggest, because the two would not have the best synergy. You've essentially got two weapons that fill a very similar niche: something which is half way between a grenade launcher and a stickybomb launcher, so using them together might make you less versatile. The place where 'half-way-house' weapons like this tend to shine, is when they are paired with something that is radically different to stock e.g. QBL + Loose Cannon IB + Sticky Jumper IB + DemoKnight shields This way the QBL/IB can fill in some of the functionality that is lost by not having the normal pipes/stickies by being an acceptable compromise between the two. This is coming from a dyed-in-the-wool Medic main, though, so there may be details particular to Demo, that I have failed to consider.

[@MultiTsunamiX]

If your confidence ended up being 86%, you might have stats hacked. You have to first determine the interval of significance And then calculate, if it is in that interval. Also you can only have the hypothesis discarded (whatever is the english word for that) or not discarded, you can't really confirm with 86% of confidence.

[@crimsonpyro6076]

the not stock is best

[@mateuszb.4011]

Also. If you charge your shot fully with QBL the sticky does more damage than if you were to just shoot it. The more you know

[@Toofty]

This was my assumption as to why it felt like I was doing more damage at range.

[@theconga3098]

Let’s be honest here, why didn’t know about that

[@coolestgamenerd]

Panik!

[@mintmango10]

Penggu TF2 Lo a lot of people sadly

[@brady.widlake]

Ok we have a winner

[@dumpygrimbo8623]

Tooftie: QBL Community: Stock Me: Scottish Resistance

[@St4rsh]

Demo is a defence class right? TSR is a defensive weapon made for traps and only traps and can't be used in attacking for the bombing time but it's pretty useful in spawn camping defending CP or PL and trapping an entire team incoming to attack.

[@jldragon7855]

scottish resistance gang. tho i often switch to quickie when i get tired of the slower setup

[@robertstegmann9260]

Scottish Resistance OP on attack

[@St4rsh]

@@robertstegmann9260 honestly my dude, your joke is perfect

[@Toofty]

Correction: Community: Stock You: Scottish Resistance Me: Sticky Jumper!

[@archetexture3409]

Hard Demo main here. I picked up the quickie two years ago, and started using it as a meme. I 'quickly' found out that it was much more than that. --The damage penalty doesn't matter in the slightest. If I am in a situation in which I HAVE to sticky spam in order to get out, I don't even notice a damage difference. Quickie can charge faster, it's easier to jump with AND it can do more consistent damage with the only real downside being a smaller clip size. This is what a side grade should be. -- Today, I still favor the QBL over the Sticky and will continue to unless it's ever nerfed. Also great for a Kritz pocket AND it can destroy enemy stickies. Does nobody understand how fucking useful that is???

[@this...isabucket.6665]

I fucking do. I have played with both launchers for a while with 4000 hours under my belt and have chosen quickiebomber as my main gun. I have gone on huge tears with this thing, highest killstreak ever was 44. Most people think stock is better, but I truly beg to differ. Stock may do more damage, but quickie has a faster detonation time and charging up shots lead to even more damage than stock. These two stats work wonders together, letting you make quick work of any close range opponent with those 125 damage bombs. That detonation time might not seem much, but you can more reliably nail those close explosions, avoiding the massive damage fall off. That's the problem with stock; by the time you can detonate the bomb the enemy would have moved far away from the sticky and you'd be dealing a fraction of what quickie can do. And yes! The ability to destroy bombs is a huge upside! You have a massive advantage in 1v1 demo spamouts, able to neuter a deadly trap with one bomb, which also makes you ideal as a support in a team push to clear out team-wiping stickytraps. I have rarely found the halved clip to be troublesome, since with that fast detonation time, youd have to have a mental disability to mistime the explosions. The only problem I have with this video is now people will go and try the quickiebomber out and realize how kick-ass it is, which may lead to valve nerfing it.

[@EnergyBurst2]

I read in another comment that when it comes to sticky spamming the stock has a damage ramp up that the quickie does not making the -15% damage almost nullified when just spamming and insta detting your stickies.

[@gangweedernigga4012]

*_scunt slowly aproaches_*

[@kirbyfreakyt4695]

Did I read the stats wrong? Isn't there a damage bonus on max charge?

[@kirbyfreakyt4695]

I just read the stats. THERE. IS. This does MORE DAMAGE THAN STOCK when you have time to charge, its -15% is barely NOTICEABLE and its secondary downside of half the clip is its MAIN downside with time being a secondary one, similar to how the 20% doesn't effect the ubersaw but the fact that it's a melee weapon IS used as a downside.

[@dinoluka11]

The Quickie Bomb Launcher is the perfect example of what a sidegrade should be. It sacrafices damage in exchange for flexibility. The QBL is great for more open maps or those looking for a more "roamer" playstyle but dont want to completly loose their primary damage output. The QBL forces you to land more accurate shots due to the smaller clip cappacity and it also forces you to rely more on the grenade launcher. The Quickie Bomb Launcher and The Iron Bomber make a POWERFUL combination, you can output a staggering amount of damage due to the weapons being so flexible. The QBL is ideal for sticky sniping and it perfect for clearing out sniper nests, sentry nests and even airshots. The stock stickybomb launcher has much better sustain and it more used for tight maps with lots of choke points, it is also great for assaulting heavily fortified control points due to its damage output. But for those looking for a more agressive playstyle thatmakes you more flexible and a quicker damage output the quickiebomb launcher is an exellent choice. It is also good for keeping pressure on the eneny at longer distance. And while the constant need to reload is frustrating you will be doing more work with the QBL due to you being able to quickly adjust the travel distance of your shot, greatly extending your range. The QBL is also great for finishing off retreating enemies. You should definetly try using the Iron Bomber + Quickiebomb Launcher combo. You will have to rely on both grenades and stickies at the same time, you will rely less on spam and more on predicting enemy movement to get a direct shot and make the most of your sticky.

[@vuthidoan2106]

I did 2341 damage per minute with the scottish resistance on sawmill with no medic once

[@adinwilcox3836]

Vu Thi Doan thats probobly because with the Scottish resistance you can detonate many more stickies at once, meaning yoyr traps can do damage well over there max in one detonation

[@microwavestravelingatmach2111]

I thought your profile pic was a piece of hair on my phone.

[@disappointedcucumber]

@Daniel von Strangle The word *crutch* isn't used correctly here. The Scottish Resistance is a decent sidegrade. It makes me wonder if the tf2 team was trying to do something similar to the spy watches. Dead Ringer- Offensive Cloak and Dagger- Defensive Invis Watch- Both Quickiebomb Launcher- Offensive Scottish Resistance-Defensive Stickybomb Launcher- Both

[@unknownuser8967]

@Daniel von Strangle Blah blah blah everyone says everything is a crutch these days. Its a decent sidegrade imo.

[@StickMaster500]

I always thought that the Stickybomb Launcher was usually the better option since it does more reliable damage since the Quickiebomb Launcher has a 15% damage penalty and half the clip which I can see why some people don't really consider using this weapon but I'll make sure to give the Quickiebomb Launcher a go after watching this video.

[@carljohan9265]

The thing toofty mentioned about the mindset you end up with when using the 2 weapons is interesting. I personally find myself aiming less effectively when I use the SBL because "I have more shots", while I aim more carefully with a grenade lancher because "I have to make my shots count", and the QBL falls into the latter cathegory. I believe the minigun/tomislav choise for most people comes down to something similar. You pick the one that puts you in the mindset that works best for your specific aim. Same with the grenade launcher/iron bomber.

[@warthogvanguard7292]

StickMaster500 man I see you everywhere brother.

[@MartinPurathur]

Scout mains hyperventilate

[@masteryoda3136]

I wonder what the inventory of the legendary stickmaster looks like

[@frydog4217]

do you even watch the videos before you comment on them. all your comments seem to be vaguely related to the title and not commenting on anything said on the video

[@hyruleenigma]

"Traps are not gay" -Toofty

[@hiru88888]

He’s gay

[@the_egg_]

@@hiru88888 ur gay

[@yes8807]

Fred's Not Gay Remember

[@someguy1716]

I encounter a demoknight in a server he had a poster plummer saying traps are gay

[@omniscientbarebones]

Quickie and Sticky...

[@gasmaskfacednerd5896]

The Quicklybomb looks like a BDSM sticky bomb launcher.

[@ITMenterprises]

shit, i just searched that up, i thought it was like diy craftmanship

[@finmin2k]

@@ITMenterprises hAHAHAHAA

[@PFSnypr]

@@ITMenterprises the big oof

[@RetardedSealBro]

mm stickly

[@adambaryliuk3393]

Rustin 𝖔𝖔𝖋

[@ThePenally1]

Hey guys! Psychology and Biology student here (am going to uni in September YAY)! Ideally for a pure perfect test you would play somewhere around 50 games (with the exact same amount of defence against attack) for each weapon with the same teams, maps and equipment load-outs to eliminate any possible placebo effects, confirmation biases, observational error or falsification of data. Obviously you can't do this but what you can also do is make sure that your load-out never changes and that you play for the same amount of time (and same amount of warmup if you do any) so that your skill level should be as close together as possible. Another thing to compare is stupid random crits. You already removed anomalous games as well which is helpful. In regards to statistically testing whether there is a significant difference we first need to compare the types of data. As we're using pure measurements of Damage (I would only recommend comparing the Damage per Minute in each game rather than an average) this means that we're using Interval data (specific numbers and ratios). This kind of experiment is also called Repeated Measures as the same participants go through two different tests. This means that (if I remember correctly) this should mean that we need to use a Wilcoxon signed rank test and we would want it to be 95% certain that the results were not due to chance (critical values). Note before I show the equations that I am doing this all from memory and might be incorrect but I believe that the equations should be: mw=0 δw=√n(n+1)(2n+1)/6 z=(W-mw±0.5)/δw I found my z score to be 0.011 which means that there is a 1.1% chance that these results are due to chance which in theory means that you're results are statistically relevant but it's kinda murky and uncertain. I hope this helps but there's a good chance I may be wrong, I think I did see another comment down below that also tried to explain the same thing. Good Luck! EDIT: Spelling errors.

[@Toofty]

Thanks Alex that's really helpful, I appreciate you spending the time explaining this to me!

[@FrancOhGee]

I just took an AP stats exam and this is giving me PTSD. btw wouldn't you conduct a 2-sample t-test since you'd want to figure out if the difference between the two means is statistically significant?

[@meme_chef]

your p value is .011 not your zscore

[@ThePenally1]

Meme Chef Oops! You’re absolutely right. I guess then it wouldn’t be significant but I cannot be bothered to work it out again. Feel free to further correct me if I made any more mistakes.

[@ThePenally1]

Franco G I think a T-test would also work as this should be within parametric results; I may have gotten some of my tests mixed up between Spearmans Rank and stuff. Thanks for pointing it out. Also I know that feeling with the PTSD.

[@a6pukoc113]

The story ofQuickiebomb Launcher, undeservedly forgotten demoman's secondary

[@elcacahuate7l979]

I didn't know it existed until I had 400 hours of game

[@scylla-2]

@@elcacahuate7l979 i forgot until 1740hrs i realized how good it is. But the reload gives a big vulnerability.

[@TheLunarMan]

@@scylla-2 I think the quickiebomb launcher promotes more of a roamer playstyle.

[@orlandomiguelherrera4888]

You forgot to mention there the QBL destroys enemy stickies. That may be another reason to use it. ☺️

[@fiazbot5921]

You can also use it to destroy enemy traps at spawn when the round starts.

[@matthewmurphy9248]

Or clear traps from chokepoints, where that is most useful.

[@memeboy4206]

I did not know that. Thanks. :)

[@RayanfhoulaBR]

@WaterNinja YT demobro

[@powerhour8161]

The minimum number of samples you would need to take would be 30 for each weapon. It's called the "central limit theorem". Other than that, data was collected pretty much fairly.

[@feelsamazingman174]

you’re wrong the pan is the best weapon in the game

[@impazie]

pan in paper > does same damage > is louder = worse pan in practice > huh????? it works????

[@javacrow7396]

@L Random crits

[@Tuntor689]

L Nothing Are Fair and Balanced

[@JaymerFIll]

The jarate is better

[@baglespelledwrong8159]

ham>pan ham: > really cheap >crits all the time =no strange but that means you dont feel like always using it >jiggle bones =funny wack sound pan: crits all the time

[@chewy_bucca]

I think the final sticky vs grenade graph really highlights the really good class weapon balancing by valve, one does not outshine the other.

[@vicvoss1285]

Whenever I use the quickie bomb launcher it's usually as a quickie knight. Get four heads with the eyelander as demo knight, run back to spawn, change load out to boots, quickie, and eyelander. It's a very fun play style, being the second fastest class in the game with a quick damage output. Other than that I'd typically use stock for default flexibility and the resistance for straight up defense.

[@vivelespatat2670]

You are the worst person I have ever seen I love it

[@fooyanjie6057]

It’s like a boss fight with stages

[@TrickyRover]

This used to be more viable when QBL had more shots and when booties actually boosted your speed without requiring you to equip a shield.

[@nic3097]

"Its worth STICKING around" Nice play wwith words there Toofty

[@plum1405]

Nic it’s called a pun.

[@nic3097]

@@plum1405 Wow dont ya say sherlock :D

[@toastedfox8140]

Sticky Jumper> All other launchers

[@Toofty]

Agreed

[@infernodragon456]

Its damage output was so much that they had to increase the damage penalty and reduce the amount of stickies out..

[@iliqnmarinov8136]

Agreed

[@MochicoArtemis]

the sticky launcher is nothing but a weapon that wastes your secondary slot

[@johnathan_maximiliam]

​@@MochicoArtemis*HERESY*

[@Reragi]

2:19 this is the formula for a z-score, which requires a z-table (already premade). x with a bar is the input, while the weird u is the mean of all of your data. the one at the bottom is the standard deviation of all of your data divided by the square root of the amount of things you have. This thing is used to know what percentage is your input (the x thing) amongst all your data. so basically you can find out if something is in the top 10%, or 50%, or is at the bottom. It's extremely hard work since you need to make *an entire table out of all the data.*

[@Naleksuh]

I think the Scottish resistance is a good weapon for people who don't stickyspam, and the quickiebomb launcher for those who do. And you can use stock as an 'all rounder'.

[@mechiimi]

Naleksuh hi nale

[@UsingGorillaLogic]

The main sacrifice with the resistance is that you can't clip soldiers in the air (if you are good enough to do that) with traps you set high up on reaction, and you can't really do anything to save yourself from good scouts. Because of this, I feel like it is a very very powerful weapon on maps with lots of chokepoints where those factors don't exist but is very poor in open maps where you NEED self protection of any kind.

[@Naleksuh]

@@UsingGorillaLogic Well maybe toofty is assuming you are only using your secondary. But you could just use your grenade launcher for those situations. Nevertheless I use stock

[@UsingGorillaLogic]

@@Naleksuh The problem with that is that hitting a direct pipe on a flying target is more... hit or miss, and the splash damage is brutal to yourself at close range even compared to a stickey's splash. It CAN work, but it is not really preferred.

[@PancakemonsterFO4]

Naleksuh Scottish resistance is good for early game traps because you can deploy way more of them and are in control of the area you want to detonate so you can mine 3 spots at once rather then only one. It definitely profits from teamplay as the stickybomb launcher itself isn’t going to help in face to face encounters (you can still bait your enemy in a trapped hallway through but the novelty wears off after a fiew times)

[@rumi4143]

well the way see it goes like this - as a demomain i always get confused on wether using QBL or SBL but here is what i did. so i opened a tr_walkway_rc2 server and tested some stuff. first, i tested how much more damage does the QBL when fully charged and i was got amazed when suddenly i det a full charged QBL sticky and it did 138. to put that into prespective, 2 splash stock stickies can do 60-70 each. moreover, the faster arm time would allow one to get kills they wouldnt have got by simply using the stock cuz faster charge means higher chance of hitting for example an escaping medic with crispy 40-50 extra chip dmg that could potentially drop the medic or other light classes (aka makes sticky sniping way easier). also one stat that on paper is just straight up dumb and op is the ability to destroy enemey demomen stickies. as a comp/ casual player, i can tell u that such stat gives massive advantage to the team usin the QBL as no chokes/wall/intel or point could be reliably protected by an enemey demo. btw: im the big gay guy from ur stream ty alot u helped me lmao

[@michaelcrouson1207]

Your the big gay guy from steam? Have you seen the username holodeckgamer720?

[@rumi4143]

@@michaelcrouson1207 not rly but good thingu know me :)

[@Eiosh]

Next Video Microsoft Launcher vs Google Now Launcher

[@CarsonW518]

Ios launcher.

[@Eiosh]

@@CarsonW518 that launcher is trash

[@CarsonW518]

@@Eiosh lol, hahha

[@CarsonW518]

Im just making it up cuz u only said micro and goog.

[@leky1325]

Nova launcher hands down

[@galaxy7577]

0:47 that team comp tho

[@eh2587]

Engineer gaming

[@parkerdude5682]

“Things that we’re out off my control” “Fatigue” Have you heard of sleeping?

[@soullessleftover8427]

Scottish resistance is still the best trap weapon for demo. You would be shocked just how many more kills can you get with it. Only downside is the slow deployment, which can be also its best feature. As it forces you to be more careful and sneaky.

[@MrToastmas]

Have you heard about the MechaWreck Situation?

[@barda74a89]

No

[@linus8639]

fun

[@abdallahamin4253]

I don't think we need to talk about this anymore

[@drewf.dawson4743]

@@abdallahamin4253 yeah

[@Toofty]

I hadn't heard of him before but I have now...

[@sirscribble3182]

I bought a professional killstreak quickybomb launcher to make a sans meme loadout because it was way cheaper than the stock. I’m glad it’s good apparently.

[@tylmoo]

I took the ap statistics exam yesterday and seeing that equation actually shocked me

[@nativechatter999]

never thought it was gonna apply to real life huh

[@aidanholland8921]

i liked this message a year ago

[@Handlesareastupidsystem]

1:04 The music lines up with Demo reloading his weapon.

[@Belodri]

I think you're missing a very important point here: Taking out sentry nests. With a quickybomb launcher you have 0 chance of taking out a wrangled sentry. You just don't have that much damage in a clip. Same applies to overhealed heavies as well so if there was a point for versatility, I'd give that to the stickybomb launcher.

[@eMercody]

While I agree on the versatility part, I don’t agree that in those specific situations stock would do all that much better.

[@Argonwolfproject]

The resistance is also excellent against static targets, and in traps, while the quickie is the opposite, favoring active combat and suppressive fire. The stock brings a comfortable middle ground, as many stock weapons do, and the sticky jumper is a vehicle.

[@dogman9291]

Not necessarily. The Quickie deals MUCH more damage than stock when fully charged. Stock deals 60-70 dmg while the fully charged Quickie can get 138. Again, that's with a single quickie bomb. Light classes can be oneshotted by a single quickiebomb without random crits. So if you're good with your long distance grenades to finish things off, the smaller clip can by bypassed easily to take down a wrangled sentry or overhealed heavy. Not as effectively as a Stickybomb launcher, but I'd argue both the QB and SB are versatile in different ways.

[@scroti2042]

**Scottish resistance reads the dps stats of the QBL and SBL** “laughs in gaelic”

[@TheDormantP]

Laughs in Demoknight*

[@arnelbraga4745]

@@Chris-vs9so english acceptance?

[@ToxicBastard]

KA (and I cannot stress this enough) BOOM!!!

[@twobladedswordsandmauls2120]

@@arnelbraga4745 I think he got auto-corrected.

[@twobladedswordsandmauls2120]

@@Chris-vs9so Sticky spam. Which is what the QBL is DESIGNED for.

[@captainkeyes9913]

1:26 good guy toofty leaving the health pack for scout

[@vuthidoan2106]

I use the scottish resistance and did 2341 damage perminute on sawmill

[@JS-cq7ut]

What? Did they run into the stickies?

[@dumkorph]

You made me give the QBL a second chance, thanks

[@slycat9449]

Stock loadout vs IB, QBL, (and melee of your choice)

[@louisvalbo1884]

There is no choice other than the *p a n*

[@meepic2553]

@@louisvalbo1884 but m e a t?

[@hmmm4989]

or the s i g n?

[@Serpgamer]

2:36 that spy was a lifesaver

[@videakias3000]

the virgin sniper:situational,nobody likes him,other classes can do the same job and better,he stinks from his own piss,no personality,a burden to his team. the chad demoman:good in every situation,balanced,everyone likes him,he has personality,he has friends,doesn't stink,he is not a burden to his team.

[@skinnybuggo]

Demoman stinks of alcohol m8

[@simonj6801]

Sniper has a personality m8

[@fusrosandvich3738]

The demoman's eye is haunted.

[@JacobKinsley]

The only personality demoman mains have is annoying

[@videakias3000]

@@JacobKinsley well excuuuuuuse US princess for pushing payloads capturing points defending poing defending payload and pretty much doing anything that snipers think they are doing.

[@TundoNortillenna]

On uncertainties and significance, from a university course in experimental physics. In this case, you’re comparing two sets of measurements and you want to know weather the difference is significant. This can be done in three (relatively) simple steps. Step 1: calculate the uncertainties in the two sets. For a set x of n independent measurements, start by calculating each value’s deviation from the mean: d = x_i - , where x_i is one value and is the mean. Then the uncertainty in the mean can be calculated as σ = sqrt(1/(n^2-n)*sum(d_i^2)), “sqrt”=“square root”. For each measured quantity (P/M, K/M, ...) you then get one value and one uncertainty. Step 2: calculate the uncertainty in the difference. For two values X and Y with uncertainties σ and δ, the difference between them is D = X - Y, and the uncertainty in the difference is σ_D = sqrt(σ^2 + δ^2). Step 3: compare |D| is the absolute value of D, meaning the value without the sign. If |D| < σ_D then X and Y can be considered the same. If |D| > 2*σ_D then the difference is significant. If it’s in between then further research is needed. [Note: writing math in a KZbin comment is hard. If I made a mistake, please do tell me. ]

[@crestfallensunbro6001]

can we take a moment to appreciate how fitting it is that the voice clip he used when talking about the equation is the engineer? it just makes so much sence that it's the engineer given the fact that his bio includes a "favorite equation"

[@sampletexxxt]

i hope u saying "sticking around" at 0:57 was meant to be an intended pun

[@captain_hammer]

IMO, the quickiebomb launcher is better as a primary weapon (how you were using it in the video), but if you want your launcher to be a secondary weapon, you should use stock as you can spam it in desperation more

[@cgrigoriadis9128]

Hi, I can run the statistical significance test if you can send me all of your DPM data for each game you played. Good video

[@egaming1071]

poggers

[@wgkgarrett]

Great video, I really appreciate the work ya put in to collecting data, editing, and all the other video-y stuff. because it really shows in the quality of your videos.

[@Toofty]

Thanks Garrett!

[@arkron7093]

"Quicky or Sticky" That sounds like proposition in porn movies.... Or i have that much dirty thoughts

[@horsenuggets1018]

If you go Quicky you gonna be Sticky

[@472zothansangachawngthu7]

ok

[@coyote434_6]

This video is so good for me, I’ve been trying to figure out which one to use.

[@madhatter984]

Stock all the way but im biased since mine are gold.

[@mechiimi]

are you just flexing your australiums on us

[@Heinz_Stresseinheimer]

1:00 It's worth _sticking_ around Gottem.

[@PumpyGT]

Fyuc you XD

[@amsung2189]

Great Video! Probably going to see if the QBL fits my play style

[@Nitsu29]

6:38 The real Killer of X

[@wojtekpolska1013]

6:27 i disagree with this

[@davetheanimerock5948]

I've been a hard quickiebomb bystander until one day, 6 months later, where I just chose to... just equip the stickybomb launcher and it just sticked to me. It made me realize how a -15 damage makes a difference against Soldiers, Heavies, and most importantly, the buildings (the same applies to the clip size). It made me see that the two are indeed side grades with the Quickie being more aggressive like a scout while the sticky makes you more paced like, well, a Demoman

[@RautaMakkara]

I don't know if anyone noted it, but on the stickybomb trap side, the quickiebomb launcher's charging damage applies there too, meaning with patience, each fully charged individual quickie will do more damage than a sticky of the same variety. This would technically mean that the quickies are more effective traps statwise, but take much longer to place all 8 quickies, but it also means you can do pretty effective 2 quickie traps as well.

[@epicmoment4177]

why does everyone just kinda forget the damage bonus base on charge ;_;

[@Chef_Ramsay]

I don’t understand how no one understands QBL is mainly used to pick off low health targets after using your grenade launcher

[@arealperson9673]

8:17 the noise is closer to a pneumatic device (air powered/pressurised) which also works, somewhat, for how grenade launchers actually sound, kinda like a *thump thump* like sound.

[@TrouserSnivy]

I feel like you already answered it multiple times before and after even getting into the data. The quickiebomb launcher definitely excels at a lot of things over stock, but the map was the issue. The major downside to the QBL is how much time you spend reloading, but on badwater you have a lot of opportunities to sit back and reload on both attack and defense. Not just opportunities, but forced downtime that would happen regardless of whether or not you need to sit back and reload. That's the nature of a payload map. I really liked the QBL and think it's definitely usable, but I think it's like post-Tough Break beggar's bazooka in that its downsides are now too damaging to be considered a true sidegrade. A true sidegrade should be usable on any map against any team on an even skill level with you. I don't think the QBL meets this. However, the Scottish resistance, I will always believe is a true sidegrade with a LOT of potential. Thief (dabridgetroll on KZbin) has some guides on the weapon and even made up a technique called sticky shielding with it, I think it'd be awesome if you did some research and made a video on the weapon.

[@Elster.Chapman]

Your demoman videos are helping me become a better spy, seeing how moving predictably under cloak is a death sentence against a good demo, teaching me not to move the way they’d expect.

[@lpsp442]

I'm a little late to this party but I thought I'd comment on the statistical and data oriented questions posed in this video. The short answer is: I really wouldn't worry about it. There's actually very little to be gained by replaying the same map over and over with the same weapon combo, because the data type is inherently limited. As acknowledged in the video, there are many conflating and confounding factors which a good study would have to account for in much more detail in order to achieve meaningful results. Here are a few important pointers about understanding probabilities and thereby data and statistics: a) Take the data collected and plot it out on a simple frequency chart. This is where the X-axis features every result possible (eg damage per round) and the Y-axis counts how many times that result actually happened. What you'll create will resemble a bell curve. This demonstrates the general area that most results happen in. From the sample set, only 16 data points would leave many large gaps in the results. It would likely take many more playtests, more than one mere human being is willing to tolerate, to generate enough to complete this. But from there, one will begin to observe occassional outliers in the data - extremely high and/or low results that stand removed from the peak of the bell curve, in the "tail ends". These tail end results are critical. As discovered in the video, it's possible for one outlandishly extreme result to significantly shift the average point of the entire set. Sometimes one high or low extreme can invert a better:worse ration for a given comparison. This is significant for the concept of "reliability", which is touched upon in the video when discussing the way one might play at a high-end focussed game versus a messabout in a pub server. A given weapon with a large upper "fat tail" may represent which, when played under ideal circumstances, achieves excellent results - kind of like the Scout as an entire class. This can be true even when the peak of the bell curve - and the average result for that weapon - is low, meaning that the weapon is great at focussed or competitive play but poor for casual. And similar, a weapon with a fat "lower tail" may suffer disproportionately from a lack of focus or things going wrong, even if it does very well the rest of the time. Understanding this will give a richer view of how odds and probabilities work. "Better or worse" is an easy question to ask, because it phrases a comparison as something simple linear, a one dimensional assessment of viability. But TF2 is an exciting and engaging experience because of its rich complexities. The technical definition of complexity - is that something is *irreducible*. If you can simplify something complex, it was never really complex in the first place, but a mere illusion. (Conversely, something truly complex will suffer if you simplify it, a bit like tearing bits off your car to turn it into a sort-of junkyard go kart. Might be fun, but not as good as a proper kart, and no longer useable as a car.) So when we look at a complex phenomenon like weapon viability, even when we isolate it to a scenario where the other weapons are all fixed, playing on a single map and game mode, with a single volunteer playtester and so on, the question is still beyond a linearity. b) The real way to critically analyse the comparitive uses of two weapons is to assess how they do in a variety of situations. A good payload map like Badwater provides many situations, like a narrow tunnel chokepoint, sharp corners, interesting walkways and overpasses and so on that are worth assessing part by part. This should replace an overall "by map" assessment, since the map is itself a complete whole and no piece is really floating in a vacuum. But there are certain common situations that can turn up in many maps, which lends an understanding on usefulness that abstract numbers can never provide. As an example, the most useful insight gleaned in this video is that the Quickiebomb launcher is effective at *BOTH* extremes of range. This is an intriguing property that, as far as I'm aware, is unique for a single weapon in TF2. There are countless examples of weapons more effective at close range, and the clear example of Sniper Rifles as long range oriented. There are flat weapons like the Rocket Launcher which do well at all ranges. Then, most relevant, is the stock Demoman Grenade Launcher, a weapon which I have identified (caveat: my own reasoning) as a mid-range focussed weapon. Stock rolly grenades are too finickity to be very effective up close, and their fall-off and need to score direct hits to deal high damage is punishing at long range. But at the middle distance, they excel. This leads me to an idea about the synergies of the Stock Grenade Launcher and the Quickie. Perhaps the Quickie and Stock GL go specifically together with each other, like Branston pickle and a slice of mature cheddar - certainly going together better than the Stock Sticky and GL, which would be more like Branston and parmesan or something similarly ill-advised. Because the Quickie is good at long-range and close-range, and the Stock GL is good at mid range, the two "complete" each other to create a total or "whole" set, one that covers all of Demoman's bases as a class. It's a bit like the Heavy having access to a hypothetical long-ranged minigun, a high-damaging speed boosting melee and a banana, which would let him be tough, quick, close-ranged and long-ranged all in one, a scary combo. Or the Gunslinger for Engineer, which lets him be a static emplacement god for his team while also playing quickly to keep up with the others. This sort of thinking leads to a holistic understanding of how the entire game works. When studying anything complex, no individual part can be assessed meaningfully in isolation. The entire whole must be looked into, that the individual parts have meaningful context. This lets us see a reason why the specific combo used in the video - Stock GL and Sticky vs Stock GL and Quickie - turned out more effective with the latter setup, and thereby speculate that perhaps the Quickie would not be so good with a different primary Grenade Launcher. Maybe the Loose Cannon would undermine the Quickie's vital capacities? It's impossible to say without a specific look-in. c) is more of a cautionary principle than anything more TF2 related. Percentage-based confidence and predictions have a very poor track record, and basically commit the aforementioned problem of attempting to boil a complex phenomenon to a single, linear factor. This, much like IQ tests, tends to be very misleading, and often elevates statistical noise and narrow, sheltered experience to a nonsensical privilege in terms of the weight it has on future decisions. Those sorts of percentages may seem intuitive or inviting when we start to get familiar with probability, but experience teaches a harsh lesson to those to use them and don't instead look at the true, complex phenomenon as it really it. I didn't really intend to type up an essay here, and I have no idea how many people if any actually bother to read giant posts in youtube comment sections, but it's an interesting topic and there's a lot to understand about how complex systems and probabilities work and pan out in the big picture and I care about that as a topic and TF2 to give them both the attention I feel they warrant. If anyone has been interested enough to make it down all the way to the bottom here, then I compliment your drive / persistence and thank you for your time. Hopefully it was worth the weigh- I mean *read*.

[@jongenix1631]

"So it'll be good if you stick around" I see what you did there

[@arkham9500]

Comunity, : Sapper Me : Red Tape Recorder

[@detective_mint387]

In statistics, less than 15 is to be avoided. 15 to 40 is an okay range, but if there are any outliers the significance is invalid. You can test this by entering the data into a graphing calculator and creating a box plot. Any singular dots that appear are outliers. If it is above 40, you are usually pretty safe. In order to find the significance, you must take your two lists of data (removing the outlier of 1082 D/M) and find the means and standard deviations. Then, within the calculator (I recommend a ti-84 Plus) go to Stat - Tests - 2sampTtest and entering in the information. Enter SBL info into ones and QBL into twos. The x with the bar is the mean, the Sx is the standard deviation, and the N is the number of tests (i.e. the number of games). For the Mu (the weird u1) set it to

[@omniscientbarebones]

The Quickie and Sticky are... well, double entendres...

[@arbiter6859]

I feel more trusting on my stickies with the quickies on games even with only 4 stickies on the clips, it felt like i was having a conversation like "Hey man we're ready when you are give us a fat kill bro"

[@sirscribble3182]

Also maybe you did more damage with the quickybomb because the stickybomb encourages setting up traps, which do no damage until you detonate then while the QBL encourages constant damage, which will likely make the damage of the QBL higher.

[@bend-k7695]

Hi toofty! I'm a medical student and subscriber! I dig your channel. I wanted to comment on the statistics thing because I'm exposed to quite a bit of science. basically this formula is meant for comparing outcomes in a sample (group of participants in a trial/experiment) with the outcomes in the overall population, so unless you're comparing something easily measurable like "damage caused per match" (which obviously has a ton of variables influencing it), then it would be tough to use the Z formula for this comparison of weapons. So the "n" under the square root symbol in the fraction in the denominator represents number of samples. for a scientific study, this could be number of patients that took a drug or didn't etc. Therefore, the larger the "n" number, the smaller the denominator will be. The top is sample mean minus population mean. the weird "d" looking thing is standard deviation, or how much your sample values varied from the sample mean, on average. Anyways, statistical significance basically means that you found something and it wasn't due to random chance. this formula means that if your sample mean is consistently different from your population mean, and most of the values in your sample are around the same number or don't have too much variance between them, and you have a larger number of inputs in your sample, then you are more likely to achieve "statistical significance".

[@CanisInfernus]

Another thing to keep in mind is that, for sake of direct comparison, you're using both these weapons in loadouts that make them your primary source of damage. From what I can tell, the QBL is deliberately designed to be a little bit better as that "stickyspam" launcher that you'd comfortably use in direct engagements, whereas stock stickies are "intended" as a secondary to your grenade launcher. It could be interesting to compare your performance with a QBL-focused loadout, as opposed to one where you play normally rather than focusing especially on a particular weapon, and see how the numbers line up then.

[@Magitrek]

For future experiments, I think it might be worth using your other weapons (in this the case grenade launcher) as normal. If you limit yourself to sticky bomb launchers, then you lose a tool that can help you a lot in a certain set of situations. It makes sense then that the bomb launcher which better fills that void (quickie) without giving up too much in the sticky bomb use-case would give better results. It definitely seems like the QBL has a big positive impact, but I don't think it's quite as big as the data would indicate. I think testing as part of a complete loadout would give a more realistic picture going forward.

[@glazguy112]

Well when comparing two weapons that is just idiotic because when comparing damage how can you know what gun did what damage

[@Magitrek]

@@glazguy112 Think of it like a scientific experiment, since it kind of is. This would be the equivalent of an early stage study where you look at how something performs in isolation. It's shown that there's a definite advantage -in isolation-. For TF2's analogue to "real world scenarios" though, you need to test it as part of a whole kit. Then you can know how that advantage translates to real scenarios. For example, imagine evaluating the Bushwacka in isolation. Clearly it would do terribly, since it has synergies when paired with certain other weapon's in sniper's kit that you wouldn't be testing as part of it. Synergies also exist in every class's kit, though they are often more subtle. For example, scout has a pistol to cover longer ranges and a scattergun for closer ranges. He would be a weaker class if he just had two close range or two long range weapons, since he would lose versatility.

[@glazguy112]

@@Magitrek Yes I see your point and omg you have written a full essay but the point of the comparison of these two weapons was to see which weapon was better in a situation which you only are using that weapon also if I may state in another video he had stated that he wanted to prove that he uses stickies 70% and pipes 30% of the time and he proved this to himself meaning he used his stickies as a primary and yes used pipes but more as a secondary since majority of the time he was just using the SBL.

[@LS-oh8kv]

I took statistics in college. The number of any data set required to make a conclusion is 30. If you do more than 30 games, your data can be considered statistically significant. The equation that you saw is (if I remember correctly, it’s been a while) how you calculate with what percentage you can be certain of your data. So for example, a common thing you will hear a statistician say is “we can say with 90% confidence that ____ causes ____” Where that equation finds the percentage of confidence in your data based on numbers in your data set.

[@meme_chef]

the only way you could accurately have a perfectly controlled experiment is if you were to play with stationary bots, no random crits, and killing that bot over and over again at the same distance and counting damage to actually see which one does more damage. yours was more of an observational study where a direct cause-effect relationship cannot be established (games played with quickiebomb tended to produce more damage per minute but you cannot say that it was because you equipped the quickiebomb). great vid regardless

[@adinwilcox3836]

Im actually surprised so many people thought the quicky would do less damage in agressive sinarios, though it might have an initial damage debuff, it also GAINS a damange buff based on how much you charge the shot. The quick was designed to get them out quick, detonate the quick, and run out of ammo quick. The SR strives for defensive play, having massive multi traps in exchange for less agressive front, while the QBL has can dish out damage faster and stronger in exchange for less defensive gaurd, its the difference between a strong defense and "the best deffence is the best offence" And the stock can reliably do both because... well its STOCK, its the jack of sll trades, demo is almost my favorite class (i love fire, shotguns, and axes to much to not have pyo be my favorite) because of all the side weapins he has and just the way they were made, and his sticky bomb launchers are the best examples of good sidegrade design in TF2

[@roguelites5225]

The quickly is better for sticky jumping as you deal less damage than the sticky and it’s better for setting up traps as long as you charge the shot it deals more than the sticky only downside is clip

[@user-ov7ci8tp8v]

Also pointing out that you can effectively lay traps from significantly further away due to the faster charge, imo the only thing the sticky outperforms the quickie is clip size and ammo pool, so stickyspam and quickiesnipe Would be two greatly descriptive terms for their overall playstyle. Plus bonus damage on a full charge actually makes quickie traps stronger. I feel there is a strong argument for both but the quickie relies more on skill than the sticky to do ever so slightly better in each category, as the data reflects.

[@facelessgreen8997]

You satan you triggered my flashbacks with that equation, so many hours doing that shit for every god damn experiment summary in my university physics class. You probably wonder what was I studying? IT, yeah that doesn't make sense but so does the whole polish educational system.

[@jeoffvader]

Love the video, I like that it's not a clickbait one and enjoyed the number keep up the good work : )

[@marcosvalenga9208]

I like the desing and SFX points so he could give the SBL the "win" (This Is just a joke, dont get all salty)

[@onewhosaysgoose4831]

Another consideration is that QBL is just more flexible as a primary weapon. At the price of sticky traps, you get something that fills your grenade launcher's hole better Also try a "quicky knight" Loudoun. Boots, quickly launcher, and eyelander. QBL covers the lack of pills in close quarters, and can be used to effectively juggle enemies at close range without killing them. I used to enjoy the loadout a lot more than melee demoflight, it really brings out the power hidden in the qbl.

[@someguyonyoutube906]

I personally think the sticky is better for a defensive playstyle, and the quickie a more aggressive and offensive one.

[@The_RetroManiac]

The Quickie Bomb Launcher looks like it could fit into Medieval Mode.

[@Eustacebounty]

I fucking despise the quickiebomb launcher and everything it stands for, but... Fair enough. Good video.

[@danielsurvivor1372]

Also another way to improve your test to remove errors is. Do x(say 30) amount of games with one weapon and then take a rest, and after a short rest do 30 games with another weapon. That way you can warm up with both weapons seperatly

[@AnAntidisestablishmentarianist]

How do you find the servers where spies keep heading in the same direction after they cloak, medics run down a tunnel by themselves toward you and your team, and players decide to all run toward the sticky you just laid down between them?

[@projektstatic]

If I'm not wrong The quicky bomb launcher do more damage the longer it charge up. That might be why you might have done more damage with the quicky bomb launcher.

[@palecaptainwolfkayls8499]

Without knowing of the stats of the QBL, just knowing that it EXISTS, when I was a few years younger, when I only used the SBL for spam whenever I played Demo, I always thought that “Quickie” implied the QBL was more of an offensive weapon and kind of like “The Demoman’s version of the shotgun.” It’s something that I’ve still wanted to accommodate those times I use my secondary weapon offensively. Knowing that the QBL has a faster arm time, something that I’m a little frustrated with at times with the normal SBL, also piques my interest.

[@internetidiot9877]

the thing about this is because yes, as a standalone weapon, the qbl will always be better, having you be able to less arm time and easier charging.

[@flusteredfloof42]

If you want data with a normal distribution, you should aim for 30 matches per weapon. 30 is the magic number for statistics when it comes to z-scores and normal distribution, because it allows you to use z tables to determine different proportions of your results.

[@mystii4842]

Something to be noted is that in casual, there are usually more people to hit and fall back to. That way, you don’t have to worry about completely exhausting your ammo that much, making the quickiebomb launcher very strong in dn scenarios. In competitive however, you often have to rapidly switch from pipes to stickies, and area denial/traps are very important in comp, making the stock stickybomb launcher a bit stronger. Pushes are more organized and scouts aren’t always in your face as much in competitive because of the combo, making SBL a bit better there

[@maximilianklinger2712]

0:57 hehe, sticking around...

[@mrawesomexyz]

A Statistical Analysis For The Level Of Significance Based on DPM: Before calculating the statistical significance, we must first make some assumptions. In order to compare the SBL to the QBL, we must assume that the sample mean DPM for the SBL is accurate to the true mean. This allows us to determine if the mean DPM for the QBL is actually higher or not. To set this up, we need a null hypothesis and an alternative hypothesis. The null would be the DPM of the QBL is equal to 342 (the DPM of the SBL). The alternative hypothesis would be the DPM of the QBL is greater than 342. A commonly used level of significance (α) is .05. About the equation for statistical significance at 2:19 : x̄ is the sample mean, which is 422 for the QBL. μ is the true mean (or in this case the hypothesis mean, in which we will use 342). σ is the true standard deviation (which is unknown, so in this case you would need to use the sample standard deviation, denoted by S). I calculated a value for S from the values given at 3:51 (excluding the outlier) as approx. 77.2397. n is the number of trials, which is 15 if you exclude the outlier. While the Z equation can be used to compare to the level of significance, it would not work for this sample because the sample size is small and σ is unknown. This should go into a t-curve distribution with n-1 degrees of freedom instead of a z distribution. A t-curve with α=.05 and 14 degrees of freedom results in the value of 2.997. Now we can do the same equation as at 2:19, except replace Z with T and replace σ with S. If this yields a higher number than 2.997, then the alternative hypothesis ( QBL DPM>342) is accepted. Now we do the equation: T= (422-342) / (77.2397 / √15). We get the value T=3.875, which is above the value for a .05 level of significance. This value is even higher than that for a .01 level of significance (3.787). In other words, based on this sample, it is very likely that the mean DPM for the QBL is higher than the mean DPM for the SBL (for Toofty's style of gameplay).

[@DiamondJess]

After Seeing This My Favorite Out Of Context Quote Is Now "The quicky or the sticky?"

[@TheOneTrueStAN]

Hey Toofty, unrelated comment here but I wanted to say I love your videos. I've been playing TF2 on and off since 2015, and I was never able to get the point of being capable as any one class due to just how complex the game as a whole is, and that I didn't really know what class was "fun to master" for me. I tried Pyro, and everyone told me I had no skill and should kill myself. I tried scout, and enemy scouts wrecked me constantly. I tried Medic, and I'm just not the type of person who enjoys support roles. After I found your channel, and saw your Demoman gameplay, I thought that the class looked fun. I had only played maybe 2-3 hours as Demo total at that point, and decided "fuck it i'll try this." I've now watched all of your tutorials, more than once, and tried to learn as much as I could. Now I absolutely consider myself a Demo main. I love the satisfaction of laying traps, of landing pipes, of just being a drunken buffoon with explosives... it's great. And while I'm by no means "good" at the game yet, I'm finally playing TF2 as a class I feel i'm able to contribute to the team with, and that I enjoy playing. So basically thanks for showing me how much fun it is to be a Demo-main.

[@Toofty]

Wow thanks for the kind words buddy! :)

[@Zmeeed01]

If people say you have no skill as Pyro you chop their heads in half with the Axtiguisher and then laugh at them. The Flare Gun is just as good for this.

[@jebmurray2001]

Hey this is an honest compliment. Your videos are very loud, which is good! Because you can just turn down the audio. I have a fan blown on me all the time because I get hot easily so I was happy to hear the video over my fan. Subscribed :)

[@Toofty]

Well I've never got a sub for being loud before

[@adamthymius1362]

For a rule of thumb for statistical significance. You need 20 samples for each level of the independent variable. So in your case 20 games with each weapon would be the rule of thumb, or 40 games in total. If you were comparing 3 weapons it would be 60 games, 20 per weapon. Hope this helps!

[@drdino2002]

0:08 THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!

[@tubenewsintern6446]

I don’t know much about the equations to measure statistical significance, but in statistics they teach that surveys should include at least 20 participants per group. Maybe do 20+ games per weapon instead of 16? Either way, great work on these videos :^)

[@megabudubudu]

QBL is great for traps especially with that faster charge , you can snipe traps off into the distance that have more damage , imo

[@bernardonegri5416]

2:30 The perfect amount of games to play for the data to be 100% perfect is ∞ games.

[@rickslick69420]

Posting this because I didn't see it here. You will randomly crit with the QBL much more often than you would with stock. Use the QBL to push, but dont expect to hold ground like you can with stock.

[@kl16863]

Statistical significance needs the sample size to be at least 30, because low sample size causes high standard deviation

[@willidk628]

I guess you could try playing PUGs for gathering data in more data in a more controlled environment, without necessarily risking pissing peiple off in ranked matches or the like. RGL usually hosts ProLander pick-up games that don't really affect rank or mess with teams, there may be other leagues/sites that could allow this sort of games, but they were the first that came to mind. Great vid!

[@rejask448]

Demo outside spawn: *Spams stickies anyway*

[@thecuchikiller]

I thought I was crazy for feeling Quickiebomb as a upgrade of the stock one in contrast.