That Time the Big 12 was Almost a Superconference - in 1996

[@andrewsever98]

You're coming a very long way in a very short time with these. The first few were basically sideshow: all the effort in visuals and Editing is really paying off

[@scottkuhlke1839]

I love these kind of “what-ifs” and “almost happened” scenarios. A video on the proposed Magnolia League or Airplane Conference would be great!

[@BBNBRM-mt4gs]

Yes to a Magnolia League video because it’s formation would have effected the. SEC, SWC, and ACC at the time.

[@stischer47]

OMG, Rudy Davalos was a good friend of my older brother at Edison HS in San Antonio. He was always stopping by the house.

[@christopherwebb3517]

That Oklahoma vs. NCAA ruling was absolutely the correct decision. And it is also the genesis of everything that has destroyed the soul of college football ever since.

[@G_54-GMG]

Sometimes there's a reason why one evil is in place to keep down an even worse one.

[@treycherie6236]

This content intertwines my love of sports, academia, history and geography in a way I haven’t seen elsewhere on this platform, quickly becoming one of my favorite channels

[@captainspartan04]

As a Louisville fan this is the first I’m hearing of this so it’s kinda cool idea to keep the rivalry with Memphis and start other new rivalries. But then wouldn’t have the Louisville, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and and West Virginia rivalries

[@mrterp04]

Another great video! Have you considered doing one on the granddaddy of them all, the Ivy League? Or maybe the proposed Magnolia or Airplane Conferences of the late 50s?

[@lukeontheplains]

Airplane and Magnolia are two I definitely want to cover at some point!

[@LeeNobody]

Great Video. Do Penn State to Big Ten in 1990. What if Penn State joined the ACC is the biggest inflection point for why the ACC and B1G did not stay at the same tier.

[@lukeontheplains]

I've planned on doing a series of "what-ifs" on conference realignment-Penn State in the ACC/Big East and Texas in the SEC in 1989 are the two I've got right now that I'd like to get to in the future.

[@tarheel7406]

The PSU to B1G rather than ACC was a material factor but not the sole nor determinative. Also, remember that the B1G expansion that ended with UMD/RUT was largely to secure a then restless PSU (per my reading).

[@trystanlayton5472]

babe wake up dalukes posted a new conference video

[@boomtothesooner7426]

I would still say they're about to be a super conference. 16, possibly 18 members. You've got Fox's golden child in Colorado, two time PAC 12 champ Utah, Arizona who's ranked, plus the current big 12 minus the Red River Rivals'. I'd still call that a super conference.

[@GR-bn3xj]

Another small piece of trivia from 96. Some may wonder why Memphis was on there but in the previous 10 years, Memphis had beaten Alabama, Florida, USC, Tennessee, Arkansas, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Missouri and Louisville, amongst others. For a non-power conference, that is an amazing set of wins in 10 years. The problem was they could beat Tennessee and then lose to East Carolina the next week, but wins like that can grab other conferences attention

[@ohwaitchristian]

the editing and visuals in this one are really good

[@CamBoone]

I comment this on every video… but I’m always excited when I see you dropped a new video!

[@Bill_the_Redneck]

I love your videos so much. Have been a college football fan for around 15 years, but being not from the US understanding all the intricacies was not easy. Greetings from Russia. Keep up the great work. Your videos are simple looking but a joy to watch and I love the way you sound.

[@Happycoreftw]

I can't believe I am watching a video actually going into the history of UNM "Everyone's a Lobo! Woof woof woof!"

[@tmacsmash]

Interesting seeing Dave Bliss there. There's a Big XII name I can't forget no matter how much I would like to.

[@lukeontheplains]

Definitely one of the darker moments in conference history for sure

[@MetalGod999]

Excellent video, as always, by Lucas. I never knew anything about this until this video, and I enjoyed it a lot. But as Lucas wisely said, college sports is weird and full of “what-ifs” that never happened. Here’s a what-if question I wanna ask: What if the University of Houston joined the proposed Big 16 back in 1996? Think about it. In basketball, Hakeem Olajuwon & Clyde Drexler led the Houston Cougars (Phi Slama Jamma, baby! 👍😉🏀) to the NCAA Title game in 1983. Hakeem led the Cougars back to another title game in 1984. Meanwhile, in football, Houston knew what it was like to play in a heated, bloodthirsty league as a member of the Southwest Conference, and would not have been afraid of Oklahoma, Texas or Texas A&M. If you’re not gonna be able to add New Mexico, put Houston in there instead, and you’re super conference may actually be more “super.” That’s just my opinion. Lucas, feel free to let me know what you think. Oh, and keep up the great work! 👍👍

[@mountiandewfan1]

This hurts to watch as a Memphis fan

[@dylanpryor5232]

How many times as a Memphis fan do we have to suffer

[@ayooo9770]

It never ends

[@WVUer21]

As a WVU alum, this was inevitable.

[@DeAngeloStevens]

Travel Back in Time to my 1st Grade Year in Elementary School ages 6-7 years old 1996-97 during Serena (Moon), Amy (Mercury), Raye (Mars), Mina (Venus), Lita (Jupiter), and Molly's 12th Grade Senior Year in High School.

[@jdabomb8064]

I am loving this type of conference content! Keep it coming

[@Djiehh]

It's funny that the New Mexico AD was afraid of being the laughing stock of the Big 12, because I mostly remember them as being the laughing stock of a Group of 5 conference. They could have been a second Indiana, instead they are a second New Mexico State. 😂

[@riteofbloodttv]

As a huge fan of collegiate sports and history in general, your videos are so entertaining and right up my alley! Keep up the great work!

[@Jejohns]

As a Memphis Alum, we were really gunning to join a bigger conference, may have been a different story if our BBall coach didn’t go to Kentucky. It felt like bigger conferences were intimidated by Memphis & gotten farther teams to join so they could avoid them

[@doubledoink1273]

Can’t wait to learn about all the game changing realignment that almost happened.

[@musyarofah1]

the Penn State not joining Big East in '82 will be one the biggest what-ifs

[@newyorknole2225]

Imagine being a Lobos fan watching this video lol

[@jackdaddyslim3895]

Another GREAT watch.. AMAZING topic and even better execution.. Keep up the Great work.. If you make it "they" will watch.

[@brandonklisart5593]

Been loving the videos lately, would love to see what you think the conferences should look like to you

[@bighersh14]

I live about an hour from Memphis and I’m honestly shocked a power 5 conference hasn’t scooped up Memphis. Like I know they aren’t the best go5 school but they’ve made so much money for a go5 school and has FedEx to back them all I’m saying is a power 5 conference better scoop Memphis up soon.

[@JoshyProofs]

agreed

[@brandonconforto315]

I would guess it's going to be the ACC. Especially if other schools leave.

[@bighersh14]

@@brandonconforto315 I agree I originally thought the big12 would take them but since they passed then up the acc will probably scoop them up

[@commodorezero]

They were going to join the Big East but the Big East collapsed before they could join and the other Big East refugees jumped ahead of them in the qeue for conference realignment.

[@ayooo9770]

​@@brandonconforto315Unfortunately the ACC picked SMU over us solely because SMU agreed to take zero revenue for a set period. The city of Memphis is also going through a rough few years, so we are always a good but not great option for expansion.

[@nathanmackinnon7405]

babe wake up, new dalukes video

[@themadlad8540]

i never heard of Oklahoma trying to leave the big 8

[@Jrod1702]

As a lobo fan that's still hard to take

[@garygrassler09]

The big 12 should of brought in the entire swc. Would of been cool if the north division was the big 8 and the south division was the old swc minus Arkansas

[@CatsClaw44]

You can blame Texas for that. The plan was for the SWC to stay together and join with the Big 8 but Texas went behind their backs and proposed only bringing themselves, Tech, Baylor and A&M.

[@garygrassler09]

@@CatsClaw44 honestly can blame a lot of things on Texas.

[@loganmai1812]

You’re amazing dude love the vids!

[@carsonc29]

when the old Big East was collapsing, I would have loved to have seen the B12 be aggressive and snag PITT and Louisville...but the ACC beat them to the punch

[@sominboy2757]

Steve Young is Brigham Young's descendant

[@dantefazzina9037]

@@sominboy2757 He played QB at Greenwich High School in CT and was not All State his senior year.

[@texjlh]

Back in the 70s and 80s, Tech regularly played New Mexico due to the school's proximity fun times.

[@ecbucky]

always love your videos!

[@gmac91]

Ok, this video is very informative and I love your content, BUT “Colorado had long wanted to align itself with California University” is a silly claim that is presented here without evidence. Where are you getting that from??

[@real_2k97]

I actually would be hella interested to see this conference ngl

[@orangehoof]

The most prominent "what if" was when the PAC 12 flirted with adding Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and Texas Tech. The deal breaker was Texas refusing to share the revenue from the Longhorn Network. Otherwise, you might have seen a PAC 16 of Arizona, Arizona St., California, Colorado, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St., Oregon, Oregon St., Stanford, Texas, Texas Tech, UCLA, USC, Utah, Washington and Washington St. That could have held up against any conference in the country. What would have happened to Kansas, K-State, Iowa St. Baylor and TCU would have been interesting. Perhaps they would have been absorbed by the AAC or the Mountain West. But then the merger fell through and the PAC 12 collapsed. By such little footnotes history is made.

[@lukeontheplains]

If you're to believe Bill Self, those left out schools-KU, KSU, ISU, Baylor, Mizzou-would have joined the Big East. That likely keeps the Big East afloat as a conference, as adding those schools would probably be enough to keep schools like West Virginia and Louisville complacent and away from joining the ACC.

[@anthonyjohnson4390]

Actually according to Orange Blood the Pac wanted to boot Tech for Kansas which makes a lot of sense.

[@damnmarkey]

You should do WAC story

[@lukeontheplains]

JPJ made a really good video on the WAC a while ago. I'll eventually cover it when I do the Mountain West for sure but a devoted video might not be around for a while

[@JoshuaD485]

To think my Lobos could've been in the Big 12.....

[@patrickb33339]

The Big 12 should honestly rebrand to the Big 16 at this rate.

[@lukeontheplains]

They *should*, but I think the Big 10 proves that the brand value is more important than its accuracy at this point

[@fuckcensorship69]

how about "The Big West Conference"

[@godzilla3h]

Lets not forget around this time the Big 10 flirted with raiding the Big 8/Big 12 of Mizzu and KU along with Rutgers to get to 14.

[@anncase8673]

New Mexico as a Big 12 member definitely would have been something interesting. They could probably make the jump now if they wanted too because in all honesty, the teams the conference brought in to replace Texas and Oklahoma can only do so much

[@vamoscruceros]

I think Louisville may still wind up in the Big 12 given how many schools are looking to leave the ACC. It's just a question of how soon the ACC Grant of Rights can be defeated. Pittsburgh or Georgia Tech would probably follow as the eighteenth member.

[@tarheel7406]

Actual events indicate that even L'VILLE sees the new BIG12 as the option of last resort.

[@Leftlane4passing]

ANOTHER heater

[@mcook83]

Content is great, but I always pause for the footnotes. It looked like one of your uncles volunteered that photoshopped logo.

[@hunterrenick3338]

Dalukes, did you work in the video department @ksu???

[@lukeontheplains]

yessir

[@hunterrenick3338]

@@lukeontheplainsI’m a student assistant @ksu!!

[@ZeusAmun-pt9dc]

When you join a bigger conference you are being given an opportunity to grow your program to the level of said conference's top tier programs. It will take time but it can happen and that's your only chance now that being an independent is becoming impossible.

[@eldingo617]

Very impressive stuff. Especially for a purple.

[@lukeontheplains]

I'm going to choose to take this as a compliment

[@logan_nowicki]

Thank god UNM turned down that opportunity, look at how well our program has grown over the last 27 years…

[@justinapodaca4249]

i am a very sad lobo fan

[@lorenzohaynes3886]

There was no such thing as a power conference before, like 2010. That being said, they should've made these moves.

[@commodorezero]

There was it just didn't have a formal name.

[@lorenzohaynes3886]

@commodorezero It wasn't. That's why a BYU or an independent FSU could win a national title. Or you could have multiple national champions in unequal conferences. Or a school like New Mexico could turn down a potential invite to the Big 12. The term didn't exist because power conferences didn't exist.

[@commodorezero]

@@lorenzohaynes3886 BYU winning a naty was highly controversial. Also it was always theoretically possible for say Boise State etc to win a natty if they were the last undefeated team standing like BYU it just never happened. The P5 Big East and SWC were considered power 5 conferences. Schools from other conferences were considered minor.

[@lorenzohaynes3886]

@commodorezero Of course, it was controversial. Had there been power conferences, it wouldn't have happened. Power conferences came in when 5 conferences wanted autonomy. Didn't happen before then. Heck a lot of top schools were independent before 96. It's a common thing. People always think how things are ,are how they've always been. It's not true. The Big 10 had 8 schools. The ACC was half its size. The didn't have Miami or FSU. ThePac was small. The SWC and Bug 8 were small. WVU was independent. Bowling Green games mattered. There wS a Big West conference. There was no G5. All the conferences were FBS with no other distinction.

[@commodorezero]

@@lorenzohaynes3886 With power conferences non P5 schools can win nattys. I don't know where you got the idea that is not the case. Independents WERE a common thing pre Big East but among conferences there were 6-7 major conferecnes. Schools in say WAC or the MWC were considered "BCS busters" and those conferences not to mention MAC etc were considered minor. There was no official name for it but the current labels only formalized what already existed.

[@Nohandleentered]

Interesting to think about where New Mexico would be today. They would’ve struggled early but you’d think the extra money from the tv revenue would’ve given them far more upside than they have now. Definitely not brilliant in hindsight. I wonder if that could signal where the PAC will aim, after the legal drama is done. 🤔: maybe a combo of Memphis, New Mexico, UNLV, and three more I can’t think of at the moment to get to 8 - then try to figure things out from there. I think they should consider Rice & Tulane and just assume they have to be as “national” as all the conferences seem to be going now. So that’s 7. After that they just have to get creative. I doubt Boise or SDSU want to go at this point. Maybe Colorado State. After that, it’s a real ghost town out west and they’ll really need to get creative. They may be the first P5 to have to bring a school up from FCS. Portland State or someone, maybe. I would round out 10 with Portland State and NIU from the MAC then start to think of long term plans to get to 12 and beyond.

[@adamsayer11]

Boise state, San Jose and Fresno state would probably be the other 3. You say Boise wouldn't join but where else might they go?

[@carsonc29]

I know geography doesnt seem to be overly important in all this conference switching, but with the WSU and OSU being where they are and a very low TV deal coming, I dont think it would be a smart move for the PAC2 too add anyone past the state of Colorado...schools like Memphis, Tulane ect are just way too far..and at this point the MWC is the more stable conference...not sure if UNLV and NM are gonna wanna move to form a new PAC....I feel like OSU and WSU are just trying to buy time to see if they can convince ESPN to convince the B12 to take them in..

[@adamsayer11]

@@carsonc29 I can't see the b10 or b12 taking them since neither are exactly big media markets or sporting powerhouses

[@Khromiux]

​@@adamsayer11"san jose" lmao!!

[@CharlesFosterMalloy]

Big12 needs to go ahead & add, now: UConn Villanova Tulane Memphis Tulsa USF UTSA ECU AppSt either: Marshall or Coastal Caroline or Temple, or all 3. The ACC aren't going anywhere soon, if ever, except maybe Louisville may wish to join Big12 - the others prefer not to do so, now that Stanford, SMU & Cal have joined. FSU, Clemson, maybe UNC & NCSt may depart, however, and the ACC will be adding many or all the teams listed above. The best chance Big12 has of adding big State schools from the ACC is to take away ACC options to replace FSU, Clemson, UNC, & NCSt.... take away the life lines, then you get some, maybe, still, maybe not.

[@tarheel7406]

a) The BIG12 is already too large/wide for a Tier 2 b) The ACC has already preemptively backfilled for ~3 departures

[@JasonHodgson]

There hasnt been any real good getty images lately......or at least ones you've told me to comment on haha

[@mcook83]

Time for a turn witha true superconference: the MIAA.

[@joshladd6048]

The people(me) need a yankee conference video

[@GR-bn3xj]

If you had said 4 years ago that 3 AAC schools would join, I would have said Memphis would probably be number one. They won more football games in the AAC than any of the three teams that joined. They've had two number one recruiting classes in basketball in the last 5 years. They made the cotton Bowl 4 years ago. It still blows my mind that they were not chosen. They haven't always taken advantage of their opportunities, and their administration wasn't always looking ahead, But I think, the potential for growth is there more than in any other group of five team left. They have potential to be a power basketball school and a pretty good football school. I think what doomed them on the field was missing a field goal against UCF in 2017 to go to the peach Bowl in the AAC championship game on the last play of the game, and missing a field gold in 2015 against Houston that would have put them in the championship game and most likely the NY6 game. Ironically both field goals were missed by current NFL kickers and were makeable. Regardless of off the field reasons, a group of five team that made three NY6 bowls In 5 years would have been tough to not pick, especially if you add in the two number one recruiting classes in basketball. They haven't translated that into tournament success, which has really hurt them. I'm not sure how much a lack of an on-campus stadium is or the crime rate is, but on the field I still think they should have been chosen

[@ayooo9770]

Lifelong Memphian here. Grew up a mile from campus and am currently finishing my degree up at the school. Quite simply, we get passed up because we have no money. Most of the rich people around here support UT Knox or Ole Miss. Combine that with sometimes questionable academics, poor administration decisions, a sky-high crime rate, a football team that has on and off again success, and off campus stadiums, suddenly Orlando looks like the better media market. SMU to the ACC really convinced me that we are going to be perennial outsiders due to our lack of massive endowment.

[@GR-bn3xj]

@@ayooo9770 Yes I grew up living on Walnut Grove, so not too far from the campus. I went away to college because I wanted to get the out of town college experience, but always have loved Memphis and the university. The crime definitely doesn't help, and I didn't realize how big a deal an on-campus stadium was until recently, because the Liberty Bowl isn't that far away. I don't think people outside of Memphis realize the real estate situation and how astronomically hard it would be to build an on-campus football stadium. Memphis has come so close to joining the power conference but it's frustrating to be better on the field so many times recently but still get passed over.

[@Lawomenshoops]

Memphis got left out because it took them forever to renovate the stadium!! Basically the stadium in 2021 was the same as in 96! Finally got the funding to renovate the liberty bowl.

[@Lawomenshoops]

New Mexico turning down the Big 12 is stupid! With the money that the big 12 could bring you, improve all your sports. Being in a conference with so many Texas schools, you expand the recruiting base..

[@ericthomas917]

Theres no reason why they can't call themselves the Big 16

[@dantefazzina9037]

Did the Big Twelve ever have 3 teams make the final four in the same Tournament. I don’t think so. The Big East did in 1985 and almost had 4 teams make the final four that year. BC lost a close game against Memphis State (Memphis) by 4 points.

[@tarheel7406]

Final Four Appearances, 1st Rd Wins, Nattys (per Wiki 2015-2024. 2020 N/A) ACC: 9-5-3 B12: 5-3-2 (Excludes OK; includes Houston) BIGEAST: 6-4-4 SEC: 5-0-0 (Includes OK) B1G: 7-3-0 (Includes Oregon & UCLA) ACC - Appeared in 7 of 9 Final Fours (6 different teams) BE - Appeared in 5 of 9 Final Fours (2 different teams) B12 - Appeared in 4 of 9 Final Fours (4 different teams)

[@dantefazzina9037]

@@tarheel7406 Can’t understand your data. Can you provide further details.

[@dantefazzina9037]

@@tarheel7406 I have a ton of respect for UNC. That being said UCONN has 6 National Championships (similar with UNC) since 1999. There different head coaches and UCONN is 6 and 0 in National Championships games. Realize UCONN is 2 - O in final four games against Duke and Kentucky. Coach K and Calipari are both 0 - 2 versus UCONN.

[@tarheel7406]

@@dantefazzina9037 Appearance: Over the past 10 seasons there have been 9 Final Fours or 36 slots total. Of those 36, a BIGEAST team filled 6. 1st Rd Win: Over that same timeframe, there were 18 semi-final games. Of those, a BIGEAST team won 4. Natty: Over that same timeframe, there were 9 championship games, a BIGEAST team won 4. Over that timeframe, the BIGEAST has won the most men's basketball championships, but had less total representation in the overall Final Four than the ACC and was the most top-heavy among the three most successful conferences by this measure. Going back to when the NCAAT was expended to 64: Final Four Appearances, 1st Rd Wins, Nattys (per Wiki 1985-2024, 2020 N/A) ACC: 40-22-12 (Excludes MD; includes L'VILLE, CUSE & STANFORD) B12: 22-11-5 (Excludes OK & TX; includes ARIZ, CINCY, UTAH & HOUSTON) BIGEAST: 18-11-9 (Includes MARQ) SEC: 26-11-6 (Includes OK, ARK & TX) B1G: 34-11-5 (Includes UCLA, MD & OREGON) Even with a larger sample, I can see a similar pattern. The BIGEAST makes the Final Four less than the others, but it overachieves when they get there. Even after adjusting for realignment thus far, the ACC effectively laps the other majors.

[@tarheel7406]

@@dantefazzina9037 I consider UCONN a blue in men's basketball. UNC has won championships since the 50s over multiple generations and with 3 different head coaches. Nevertheless, having a blue doesn't lift its conference to great, best or dominate status. KY is a blue, yet the SEC has been the worst (now) P5 in basketball over the past 10 seasons measured by the Final Four.

[@FavineMoore]

early squad

[@PryorTravis]

Come on. Once Missouri, Colorado, Nebraska and A&M left, the Big 12 was barely even relevant. Losing Texas and Oklahoma finished it off. Adding any number of mid-major schools makes zero difference.

[@lukeontheplains]

"Barely even relevant" to who? I assume you for starters, but it's still clearly relevant to *someone* with money, given that it still exists. Louisville and Memphis being added would not have changed that.

[@tarheel7406]

@@lukeontheplains The PAC still exists.

[@charlesolzawski]

Long time big 8 fan...byu, Memphis, New Mexico, and Louisville were never in the mix in 96. Louisville, Utah, BYU and Pitt were considered about the time the Big East and Mountain West fell apart around 2008 (?)...no way in 1996. Around 2012 the Big XII had an application process when a lot of institutions filed. The Big XII did that process as an initial vetting for possible future expansion.

[@carsonc29]

I honestly wish the B12 had gotten PITT and Louisville before the ACC did

[@TheFranchiseCA]

You not hearing about it doesn't mean it hadn't happened, this was a thing.

[@JTproductions1]

Bring back the South West Conference you cowards

[@tonycrabtree3416]

Imagine not keeping UofH and SMU/TCU to lockdown Houston and Dallas markets, but thinking BYU, Baylor, TTU, and NMSU would be more worthy for TV eyes. 😂😂😂😂😂 This is why the conference imploded. Oh, and Governor Ann Richards got involved.

[@brandonconforto315]

In all fairness, wasn't that because those schools were really bad in the '90s? I know because Houston and SMU were killed by sanctions but in the mid 90s programs were an afterthought on the national scene. Baylor does seem like a head-scratcher but they did have some good years prior the the SWC collapsing and some top-25 finishes so that is probably why they got the invite

[@tonycrabtree3416]

@@brandonconforto315 Houston had good teams in the early 90s. Baylor was never any good at that times.

[@brandonconforto315]

@@tonycrabtree3416 outside of the 1990 team Houston never had more then 4 wins in a season but they were killed by sanctions. Baylor did have some good years (If you look at the SWc standings from 91-95)but yeah not sure why they got the invite over TCU

[@tonycrabtree3416]

@@brandonconforto315 Ann Richards is why. Look, it’s this simple. The Big 12 imploded because they left ipen the DFW and Houston markets. Had they at least kept one school presence in each market they would still be fine.

[@tonycrabtree3416]

@@brandonconforto315 Also, in 19 short years UH they won the SWC 5 times.

[@shawnlong4039]

As it is today, the Big 12 is just a collection of trash teams that no other legit conference would actually want.

[@lukeontheplains]

And that's exactly why it will live and the Pac 12 and ACC won't.

[@shawnlong4039]

@@lukeontheplains It's the Big 10 and the SEC when it is all said and done. Soon, the real and recognized national champion will only come from those conferences after the top-tier of the ACC is consumed by the Big 10 and SEC. I guess the Big 12 will get the leftovers again. The Big 12 will just be the best conference in the little league.

[@tarheel7406]

@@lukeontheplains The ACC will most likely deplete out, but it should survive as a Tier 2 like the BIG12 has.

[@Cooe.]

4:58 Wrong. As of 2018 the NCAA officially awarded the at the time MWC member University of Utah co-championship rights for 2008-09 along w/ BCS winners Florida.

[@nashmonti120]

DO THE MOUNTAIN WEST AND THE WAC ALREADY