The 17 degree chisel

[@darrinstrickroth6776]

I ground a new 1/2” wood river chisel to 17.5° flat grind not hollow it worked fine I sharpen like Cosman FYI Then I flat ground an old socket chisel from a grarage sale brand unknown that worked great also I really think the flat grind and solid bench makes the difference I also think both of my chisels are good steel and produced positive results Thank you for your video I learned a lot even if you had poor results it’s still worth sharing your lesson

[@sionhughes5543]

Wise words Darrin . I am sure the wood river steel is way better suited to the task and also being flat ground is bound to increase the strength. I glad it worked for you ,and I too, am a ,huge fan of Rob Cosman . Please consider subscribing as it will put a huge smile on my face and help grow this little channel.

[@ronhochhalter3491]

Ancient craftsman started using chisels as far back as 8000 BC. I could not find any definite documentation of when the 25° recommendation was first implemented. But I can only imagine it's been several hundred years of proven reliability. I think what you've proven is a simple point, 17° is not a practical angle to grind your chisels. Hundreds if not thousands of years of experience does not trump one KZbin woodworkers limited experience. Thank you for reducing this video, I really like to explore new ideas. It's even more helpful when someone takes the time to put new ideas to practical use and then presents an unbiased opinion of those ideas.

[@sionhughes5543]

Hi Ron , that was a fascinating comment and I completely agree with you . The one word I locked on to through out you comment was the word “ practical “ and that is one thing 17 degrees is not . I glad you enjoyed the video and would ask you to coincide subscribing. Once again, an excellent comment.

[@jasondoust4935]

Thanks for that, Sion. You've got me thinking. In our college wood room, I ground all the cheap Irwin Marples chisels at 25° on the Tormek, used the leather stropping wheel/diamond honing compound and polished them with a bench grinder, rag wheel and Tripoli compound on both sides. No secondary bevel, per Tormek manual suggestion. Gives a crisp cut, a definite advantage over 30° secondary bevel, reasonably well lived and fast to touch up 50 chisels with compounds in between sharpening. (17 year old boys aren't kind on tools when they eventually do something...) I think it's worth exploring the numbers in between 17° and 25° with that chisel. Run some secondary bevels and see how you go. Cheers, Jason

[@sionhughes5543]

Hi Jason, Thanks for the kind words and solid advice . You sound like you have your hands full with all those kids . Fingers crossed one of the turns out to be the next Norm Abrams . I am really glad you enjoyed the video and I hope you will consider subscribing. I cant imagine what it must be like to keep 50 chisels sharp .

[@n00baTr00pa]

You should add a secondary bevel at 25 degrees to thicken the steel behind the edge. This would greatly increase the strength of the edge while providing the benefit of a thin primary.

[@sionhughes5543]

That just doesn’t work as an idea . 17 degrees at the end of the chisel means you can only have an even lower angle behind it .

[@n00baTr00pa]

@@sionhughes5543 you misunderstand me. You sharpen the full 17 degree bevel, then at a micro bevel at the very edge at 25 degrees. You will have a much stronger edge while having the added benefit of better geometry behind the edge to prevent wedging.

[@sionhughes5543]

Sorry for the delay in responding but I have been giving your suggestion some thought. Ultimately what you propose is a traditional cutting head but with a shallow primary bevel . Given that the primary mission of the 17 degree cutting edge is to reduce tear out in softwood dovetails ,your proposed 25 degree cutting head would have no advantage. As for the 17 degree primary bevel assisting in moving better through the wood, it’s never going to be expected to move more than a few millimetres as the majority of the waste wood, at that stage ,would have already been removed with a copping saw . In my mind it would offer no advantage but would, I fear , be far more prone to damage .

[@MashMonster69]

Your video was well shot and edited, as far as that goes. When I read the title, I predicted the result correctly. I agree with your statement in the comments that the gain of knowing there is less tear out on a surface never seen after glue up is not worth the effort you made to achieve it. I liked and subscribed because of your video quality and because I don't want to put the time you did into making a 17 degree chisel., so I reward you by helping your channel and I'll look into your other videos soon.

[@sionhughes5543]

That was very gratifying to read . First of all thank you and secondly welcome to my channel. My older videos are longer than the more recent ones . Next time you pick and watch something let me know your thoughts.

[@BrainFizz]

I’ve always found it completely fascinating that so very many people spend so much time and effort chasing some magic number in terms of bevel angles. Modern society has, in my opinion, over complicated what is in effect a childishly simple principle. The angle is simply a balance of two things. Sharpness and durability of the edge. Outside that, a measured angle is largely irrelevant. A smaller angle is sharper, but less durable - as demonstrated. a larger angle will be more durable, but less effective. If people spent more time and effort learning to sharpening and understanding the materials being used I feel they would achieve more in terms of their craft - only at the expense of the marking company’s profits.

[@sionhughes5543]

I agree with you . I love how simply you have managed to sum it all up .

[@simonwellicome4028]

.@brainfizzrouting&making - what you say is largely SO true! But as with so many, you confuse finer angles with the property of ‘sharpness’. By definition, a sharp edge is formed by 2 different surfaces meeting with a zero radius round over between them along the full length of the edge. [A theoretical construct only, as even atoms have radii - so a truly zero radius intersection between surfaces is impossible - but hey! we live in a real world not a theoretical one...]. 3 or more different surfaces meeting with a zero radius round over makes a sharp point. The angle at which the surfaces intersect is irrelevant to whether or not the intersection is sharp. Whether or not the surfaces are flat is also irrelevant. The angle of intersection chosen only impacts the durability of the edge - as you say - and the FORCE required to get the tool to penetrate the material being cut by it when driving it into that material. For a given degree of round over where the edge tool’s surfaces actually intersect, a shallower intersection angle at the tool’s tip will indeed require less force on the tool to get it to penetrate the material, but result in a less durable tip, while a wider intersection angle edge will be more durable but harder to get to penetrate. But the gross angle between the intersecting surfaces and the ‘sharpness’ of the edge they form are unrelated. Over the centuries, our forebears have spent ages establishing that a 30 degree cutting angle (or thereabouts) is the best compromise between the force required to make an edge tool cut - and not crush - wood fibres and the durability of the tool’s edge. But like most children, we do not want to acknowledge that our parents have a point when they tell us stuff until we’ve spent ages proving to ourselves that we are almost certainly wrong and they were almost certainly right in the first place. The primary bevel in a primary-secondary-... bevel model of sharpening is only about (a) the ease & speed or restoring the actual cutting edge to sharpness when that edge dulls, and (b) getting the bulk of the tool out of the bloody way of the work being done by the actual cutting edge. But you are so right - people should focus on achieving quickly the minimum level of ‘zero round over’ appropriate to the task they wish to achieve with the tool they are using in their chosen material and return swiftly to the joy of making - worry a lot less about absolute angles.

[@sionhughes5543]

@@simonwellicome4028 that was a wonderful example of common sence and I particularly liked your observations regarding re inventing the wheel buy trying to improve on our forefathers. All my chisels are sharpened at the traditional 25 primary and 30 secondary. This whole video was all about finding out if this 17 degree idea championed by Rob Cosman was practical for the average woodworker with average chisels . It really saddens me when I read the very occasionally negative comment on this video purely because this video didn’t have a Hollywood happy ending. I very nearly didn’t publish this video because I didn’t get the outcome I was looking for . I am glad I did and I am extremely appreciative of of all the time people have taken to share their views and experiences. Bless for all time spent commenting . This it what it’s all about.

[@simonwellicome4028]

@@sionhughes5543 I’m glad you published it too. I spent 5 1/2 years at the start of my working life in academic research science - so I can tell you that an experiment that gives you a result you weren’t expecting isn’t a failure as an experiment (despite what so many on YT or other social media will have us believe these days). An experiment is only a failure when it gives an end product from which no conclusion can be drawn. All other (i.e. non-failure) experiments have something to teach us in their results & so are worth discussing. Thank you for taking the time to compile, edit & publish this video. Hollywood endings only occur in fictional tales. Real life is far more interesting for being all the messier. I’m a HUGE fan of Rob Cosman - but I don’t think I’d ever bother dropping down below 20 degrees (and probably not 25 degrees) even for very soft softwoods. If I did create such an edge tool, it would be for the very final paring of end-grain that would remain on show (and couldn’t be planed for some reason) and nothing else. And I would use it under hand pressure only. I certainly wouldn’t try chopping with it under the blows of a chisel hammer. ‘‘Twas useful to see the issues you had in creating & using this tool.

[@BrainFizz]

@@simonwellicome4028 But thats neither true, nor practice…… by your logic, a 90 degrees angle can be just as sharp as any other…….. if that were true, why would ANY angle be “defined”….. The 25/30 bevels, are also only arbitrary as well, since, if you look into it a little deeper, thats recommended for softwoods….. many literature recommends that 30/35 degrees are adopted, with very hard exotic woods calling for as much as 35/40 degrees in the extreme…….. WHY - because of my original point…. The steeper the that Ann gel the sharper the edge, but the weaker it becomes. Which brings us right back to the start - angles are only a guide, so why do people spend such a ridiculous amount of effort chasing it to perfection? 🤦‍♂️

[@micahned]

This video got recommend to me and I subscribed immediately! Love the long format, deep level details, drawings, up close camera work, etc.

[@sionhughes5543]

Thank you so much for that lovely comment. Welcome to my channel . It seems the KZbin gods are starting to shine on me and I am finally starting to get some real views . I really hope you enjoyed some of the other 50 videos on my channel . That video literally received a handful of views a week to begin with . I have one video called REUSABLE zero clearance insert . I personally think its a revolutionary idea . Please watch it and let me know your thoughts . It only has a 109 views at the moment.

[@sionhughes5543]

@@kz.irudimen I truly had no idea what the outcome of this experiment would be but recon my experience is bound to be fairly representative of Joe public’s experience.

[@billgiles3261]

I had the same experience of the damaged edge, but mine was an experiment on an Aldi, cheap, chisel. Although I fancy that paring rather that using a mallet might be kinder to the edge.

[@sionhughes5543]

I think your right. Hope you enjoyed the video despite its unhappy ending . Please consider subscribing, if you haven’t already.

[@MrGomezk]

First of all, really good quality video. very clear and concise, i had no problem with the sound btw. The 'irwin" chisel you used in the demonstration is not a "Marples" it's a copy of the earlier Marples splitproof (Sheffield) chisel, it would be interesting to see the experiment tried on a genuine/vintage Marples chisel. Thanks for an interesting upload....

[@sionhughes5543]

Thanks for the kind words. Your comments have got me thinking . I really thought that was a real Maple chisel…. Please consider subscribing .

[@MysticalMe131]

THANKS FOR THIS GREAT VIDEO. I HAVE A SET OF CHEAP CHISELS TO AND THEY NEED TO BE SHARPENED. I DON'T HAVE ONE OF THOSE TOOLS YOU ARE USING. WISH I DID. CAN YOU DO A VIDEO ON SHARPENING BY HAND. WHAT WOULD I USE??

[@sionhughes5543]

If you go to my restorations playlist you will see HOW TO RESTORE A STANLEY HAND PLANE In that video you will see me sharpening a plane iron by hand with a detailed explanation to go along with it . Let me know if it helps . I really think you will enjoy it.

[@happywanderer5632]

Interesting! I saw the Rob Cosman video as well and was inspired to try a 17 degree angle on one of my beaters chisels because I'm working with pine right now and it tears out if I so much as look sideways at it. I didn't realize that the edge would be that fragile!

[@sionhughes5543]

Lots of comments suggested that only the highest quality of chisel is suitable for this exercise. .

[@wictorvlodarczyk1737]

I just bought old made in sheffield marples chisel like this one hope It has better steel than new ones

[@sionhughes5543]

They’re not bad, but obviously there’s really expensive carbon steel ones and Japanese ones

[@jukkahuuskonen]

I think the idea with the 17degrees is to use it for final finishing with very thin slices, possibly without mallet. You were taking like 3mm slices. There was no chance for the thin edge to make it.

[@sionhughes5543]

I am sure that would have possibly worked . It was extremely easy to damage the 17, degree cutting head using it as I did . Another comment suggested just using it for the final pairing cut .

[@raphaelklaussen1951]

You can select the grinding angle in one go with a little trigonometry. If the chisel were infinitely thin the angle of grind should be 17 deg. To take into account the thickness of the chisel, you set the angle of grind to 17 - (length of pivot arm)/(chisel thickness) * 180/3.1416. This gives you a corrected angle in degrees, slightly smaller than 17 degrees. Cheers.

[@sionhughes5543]

Length of chisel to tool rest divided by the thicknesses the chisel is that what you saying?

[@raphaelklaussen1951]

@@sionhughes5543 Sorry, I wrote it upside down, it is: 17 - (chisel thickness)/(length of pivot arm) * 180/3.1416 This is the additional small angle the chisel will rotate as you grind it. (chisel thickness)/(length of pivot arm) is the angle in radians, the 180/pi converts it to degrees.

[@smtitmas]

a 17 degree chisel is NOT meant to be used for heavy chopping with a mallet. It is for Thin paring slices, driven by hand pressure only.

[@sionhughes5543]

Fair comment

[@nealpedigo2842]

Ive done this with a chisel of mine, a cheap stanley, and still gave it a secondary bevel. Just a few more degrees, but not 25°. The secondary bevel is to give the edge strength. A hollow grind might make polishing a small strip of cutting edge easier, but that in no way constitutes declaring it "practical", or more so than that of the contrary. A hollow grind also makes a cutting edge way weaker. A slight appleseed grind would be a wiser approach, and thats an unintentional result of solely hand sharpening (which Rob does) the 17° is for clearance for a different material. Is it less than practical to grind a greater angle for harder wood?? Is is less than practical to maintain ones tools from time to time? Is it less than practical to have a specific tool for a specific operation? If so, just use a hammer to do everything. If one modifies a tool, one must also modify technique (which this gentleman admitted to, kudos). But to successfully, and accurately prove or disprove a theory, one has to do it to the letter. Its not practical to use a machine with a fixed pivot and expect a fixed angle whilst removing material. G e o m e t r y proves that. Its definitely not practical to do things incorrectly.

[@sionhughes5543]

I agree with you . If I were to try this again I would get close to 17 degrees on the wet stone wheel then flatten it out by hand on the 1000 grit Trend stone and I would have taken a mulch smaller cut with a softer hit . However I genuinely had no idea what was going to happen when I tried it and very nearly didn’t publish this video because I had failed to make it work but , I do think that as an average wood worker the results I experienced are probably going to be fairly representative of Joe Public. Rob Cosman is infinitely more talented than me and he only really uses that 17 degree chisel to clean out parts of a dove tail that’s going to get hidden when the complete dovetail is assembled so its not really something I personally think is practical . All that said I hope you enjoyed my video and I appreciate the detail and wisdom of your comment. Please consider subscribing Neal and help me grow this channel . I will get better at woodwork, I just love it .

[@RobRobertson1000]

@@sionhughes5543 Thanks. I started too optimistically when I began woodworking and went for 25 degree bevels and found even them too fragile, more rolling over and blunting too easily. So I've gone back to the same as you, 25 primary and 30 secondary and keep them sharp and all is good. A lot of these ideas, even if beneficial, suffer from the law of diminishing return, whatever small benefit we get it outweighed by the trouble we go to to get there :) Great video Sion.

[@douglashopkins8070]

When I did mine it took me about an hour on a coarse diamond stone. I found it performed as Rob Cosman said.

[@sionhughes5543]

Respect. I was really hoping for a happy ending to this experiment.

[@sionhughes5543]

Hi, If you liked this video please consider….. SUBSCRIBING ….. and help me grow this channel. Check out REUSABLE ZERO CLEARANCE TABLE SAW INSERT on my channel. It’s brilliantly simple idea and unique.

[@agnieszkasuchenia3179]

Great video, really well explained 👍

[@douglashopkins8070]

Mine was a quite old chisel... and I only use it for the final slice or two. It is not a high use tool.

[@usaf4dbt]

Thank you

[@danthechippie4439]

I'd have purchased a premium chisel if I was taking the time to do this. Rob seles a few,. The chesil you used, the steel isn't upto the job. Nice video thanks

[@sionhughes5543]

Your not the first person to mention that . I still believe that the quality of the chisel I used and the overall outcome is going to be fairly representative of the average woodworker like myself. As I said in the video , It is fine for the specialist but, otherwise impractical . I would have loved it to work and was disappointed with my result but it was an honest portrayal of my attempt to follow the footsteps of Rob Cosman . Anyway I hope you enjoyed the video and would consider subscribing.

[@themountainraven]

Its for finish pass only...not for chppping... super thin shaving, plus you need about 2° micro to support the edge.

[@sionhughes5543]

I agree . Under those significantly less challenging conditions that delicate chisel might have survived . I hope overall you enjoyed the video and would consider subscribing .

[@jonasdaverio9369]

I think it's kind of crazy to not have thought that 17° was only for finish and not for chopping 2mm chunks of woods. The conclusion of the video is not very useful since that's not what a 17° bevel was inteded for in the first place, as approximately everyone else has said in the comments. It is quite intuitive thst 17° is gonna more fragile than 25°. The only goal of such a thin edge is to improve end grain pairing in soft woods

[@sionhughes5543]

I admit that I wish I had taken a finer cut first time round but I really didn’t think it would brake quite that quickly. I think being hollow ground didn’t help . I nearly didn’t publish this video because of the outcome but what I do believe is that being a woodworker of average ability my experience is probably pretty representative of what most other woodworker will find out for them selves. Yes it can be done . I am certain better quality chisel would help and finally as I mentioned at the end of the video its not a practical tool for the average woodworker. It’s very much for the specialist . Full credit to Rob Cosman for achieving what I failed to .

[@B_COOPER]

Yes it’s everything to do with the quality of the steel. Rob sells 17° chisels on his web store but they are *not cheap.* but to be fair, Rob will only sell products that he uses or recommends.

[@sionhughes5543]

I completely agree. It was an interesting video to make. I have a huge fan of Rob Cosman

[@phil538]

17 is fine, just dont beat it like you got a 45

[@sionhughes5543]

Wise words . Hope you enjoyed the video despite the unhappy ending. Please consider subscribing Phil . Cheers Sion

[@dr-ej8vs]

17 degrees is not meant for such rough work. Check out Rob Cosman's channel, he already discovered this number, but uses it differently. It cuts off the remnants but does not knock out the grooves.

[@sionhughes5543]

Yes I know and that’s exactly what I talk about at the begging and end of the video .

[@joschmoyo4532]

Fourty years at the bench and I have never bothered to measure the exact angle on any of my plane irons or chisels. I just adjust the angle to the timber I am working depending on the quality of the steel. But 17 degrees ? Only on my leather knife. To shallow otherwise. You would never get away with it on a plane iron, it would chatter and blunt very quickly. But if it's only a crappy Marples chisel ? What the hell.

[@sionhughes5543]

Those chisels are 30 years old and were the best thing I could get at the time . The replacement one I bought for this exercise was a tenth of the price I originally paid . Hope you enjoyed the video and please consider subscribing.

[@joschmoyo4532]

@@sionhughes5543 I have some bevel edged marples chisels. Good enough for hacking out glue gummed joints in restoration work but edge holding nothing to shout about. Truth is you have to invest in hand forged Japanese chisels to get real sharpness and edge holding. Even then you need to do your homework. Ouchi are probably the best. Expensive but you will never go back once you have used them. Sorby makes fairly decent chisels. Good enough for hobby stuff. The trouble with unlaminated chisels is they don't absorb shock when driven. Japanese chisels drive and cut with much more authority. They hold a much finer edge than western tool steels too.

[@sionhughes5543]

Next time I am at my favourite tool shop I shall investigate.

[@joschmoyo4532]

@@sionhughes5543 Ouchi are marvellous especially in blue steel if you can get them still. Iyoroi, meh. Nishiki is excellent. Tasai, expensive, pretty looking but overrated. Don't get those silly ebony handles. White oak is best, red oak is close second. Don't be put off by the short length, it makes them far more controlable. You may have to order Ouchi direct from Japan but it's worth it. Mine are from the old Ouchi, had them 26 years now. Tough as all buggery. A joy to use.

[@jimpowell6102]

If you watch the Rob Cosman videos about 17 degree chisels, he clearly states that this will only work with high quality premium chisels. He only uses IBC chisels for 17 degrees. There is no way for the cheap steel of a hardware store chisel to hold this kind of edge. This test was doomed from the start with a low quality chisel.

[@sionhughes5543]

I hope I had made what you have said clear in the video. As an average wood worker I feel the results from that experience would be fairly representative of the average wood worker and that they would be interested in the outcome of the average joe and his average chisel trying to emulate Rob Cosman . I honestly had no idea what the outcome would be . I seriously considered not publishing that video because I had failed to get a ha happy ending. Glad I did and hope you enjoyed it . Please consider subscribing .

[@danthechippie4439]

Cut a 17 degree block of wood to support the chesil on the water stone

[@sionhughes5543]

That’s actually a really good idea. Thanks Dan

[@rickreed123]

I would try putting the board over a leg, so you don't get bounce, and then you might not have to hit it so hard.

[@sionhughes5543]

Sorry I am being a bit thick but do you mean I should have put another block of wood underneath the one I was using the chisel on ?

[@rickreed123]

@@sionhughes5543 It helps a lot whenever you are hitting a chisel with a mallet, to have the place where the chisel is entering the wood to be over the leg of your bench, so the force gets transferred from the mallet to the workpiece and doesn't carry through to the table top, which can give/bounce and disperse the energy. If the support under the workpiece is solid, you don't have to hit the chisel very hard at all, just tap really, and I think you could achieve the result you were after without breaking the edge of the chisel. It also helps to have a solid mallet that won't give as well. Thanks for the video. I might have to try this myself. It is also important to not start chiseling very far from the edge of the piece, and just take away very thin slices, otherwise, the bevel of the chisel will wedge in unyielding fibers and resist being driven further. You should always be trying to slice off a little bit of wood at a time.

[@sionhughes5543]

@@rickreed123 let me know your results if you try it . When I watch the video myself I agree that I could have taken a thinner cut with the 17’ but I wanted to treat it exactly the same as the 30’ basically cutting half of what was there . That I am sure ,was my mistake. Rob Cosman employees this system and really it’s a bit of a gimmick. A normal 25’ primary bevel and a 30’ cutting bevel is good enough . After I had polished my 17’ cutting edge I remember looking at it and thinking if I sneeze in this chisel it will break . As wood workers we have to try all these things .

[@davidjennings9253]

You are really up against it with cheap or average chisels. I use Ashley Iles chisels and they will take a 17 degree edge easily but I only have a 1/2" and 3/4" sharpened this way which I find is sufficient for most work in Pine. It also looked as though you were using whitewood for your demo which is awful for chiseling anyway, The other important factor is a really solid bench for chiseling, with a good 4" thick hardwood top that won't bounce when using a mallet. Treat yourself to some Ashley iles chisels which are British made and great quality.

[@sionhughes5543]

I would love a better set of chisels . I have had those 30 years now . Still I am loathed to blame my failure completely on the tool as I am certain I was expecting the impossible from when I hit it as hard as the 25 degree one . Thanks for the comment and I hope you will consider subscribing.

[@farrierss1724]

Great video, bad audio, interesting content

[@sionhughes5543]

Thanks for the nice comment. It’s all recorded on an iPhone . I guess I should start thinking about a dedicated microphone. . Please consider subscribing. Cheers

[@tshev]

You've removed too much wood in a single step. Have you tried removing less material? It should work when you remove as little material as possible. You can start with 25 degrees and make a final step with 17 degree chissels.

[@sionhughes5543]

That’s actually a really good idea. I never thought of just using it for the finishing .

[@tshev]

@@sionhughes5543 I am glad you liked it.

[@thewalnutwoodworker6136]

why

[@sionhughes5543]

Because I wanted to see if I could get this idea to work and as you saw I couldn’t. I am of average skill when it comes to chiselling and had genuinely no idea what the outcome of this exercise would be . I figured my experience is probably going to be fairly representative of Joe public if they tried this . This video might well warn some people off from trying it or, it might just inspire others to try to succeed where I failed .

[@mymemeplex]

@@sionhughes5543 I've been thinking of trying a less extreme angel myself, more like 20°. maybe that's less brittle.

[@micahned]

Hey Walnut guy why even make this comment? If you have a genuine question then ask it, if not then move along.

[@sionhughes5543]

@@mymemeplex I would think that anything steeper than 17 degrees is going to be more robust. Please let me know your results if you try it .

[@ouodo]

Blah blah blah blah blah, skip to 7:55 you're welcome

[@sionhughes5543]

Sorry you felt that way ….