The $21 Billion Bomber That Was a Total Nightmare to Build

[@nerome619]

nightmare to build - beauty to service. My father was an electrical engineer peripheral to this program - he LOVED it. The electronics were packaged in pull out modules - got a problem with something - pull out the module with all of the control circuitry and plug a new one in and turn the plane around. Then aircraft team get to work on the module in the warm workshop ... so much better than the Harrier and Lightning.

[@StuartPeacock-e2t]

Very similar to the SEPCAT Jaguar

[@FreddyFromage-lk4mp]

The TSR 2 had one big problem in those days and it's the same big problem we have today, British Government

[@Hanking-Warry]

With a push from the US government.

[@FreddyFromage-lk4mp]

@@Hanking-Warry do you think this is true?

[@chrisaskin6144]

​@@FreddyFromage-lk4mp Well the US certainly didn't want the UK as a possible adversary in the overseas sales market. Better still if instead, we were actually one of their customers. With the spiralling costs involved AND a new Labour government, they were just pushing at an open door.

[@FreddyFromage-lk4mp]

@@chrisaskin6144 thats an appalling insight and I have heard before from a guy who worked at Filton. For me the real issue is the loss of engineering attitude which total quality has never been unable to rectify.

[@scottross5495]

@@chrisaskin6144 The problem wasn't the US. The UK can't even keep it's empire together. That's the UK Canada and Australia.

[@davkarshobby2468]

Not only was it cancelled, all prototypes were destroyed - I suspect interference from other governments as well as our own. The same happened with the Avro Arrow in Canada.

[@TheJZP]

The USA told Canada it can't have an aerospace industry that could be a threat. The Americans are not your friends.

[@brendanmccoy6390]

the prototypes we not destroyed on is at duxford and another at cosford

[@nickkorkodylas5005]

The difference is that the Arrow did not look like shit.

[@drjojo4624]

@@brendanmccoy6390two prototypes exist despite government orders to destroy them. The other partly finished and finished airframes were destroyed. All tooling and jigs necessary to build them were destroyed as well.

[@StuartPeacock-e2t]

Yes. The total eradication of tools jigs and plans was extreme and not to preserve security. It was a bizarre act

[@michaelhannah5376]

Tempest is equally as revolutionary , equally cutting edge and unfortunately is facing the same threat. The ability of the British to take careful aim at their own foot at point blank range is legendary.

[@gdok6088]

Yes, but the feet the British Governments shoot at are actually the feet of the British people, destroying jobs, deskilling engineers and degrading our own abilities. The short-sightedness is breathtaking and shocking.

[@Statueshop297]

FIRE. What the worst that could happen

[@RJM1011]

The new government is also looking at cutting the number of F35's for the UK also. Labour yet again !

[@Statueshop297]

@@RJM1011 it’s called a defence review. Everything is being looked at

[@RJM1011]

@@Statueshop297 Yes but by scum that tell lies. Like with the stopping of the heating money.

[@bobross6802]

Sounds like our Canadian Avro Arrow

[@MadeleineWincey]

You are correct!

[@tonkerdog1]

Very much a low level aircraft though.

[@L_U-K_E]

The only nightmare to the TSR 2 was the government.

[@craigriddell1169]

The similarities to the Canadian experience only 6 years earlier with the cancellation of the A.V. Roe Arrow are uncannily similar

[@FinsburyPhil]

The UK only finished paying it's post WW2 loan debt to the US in December 2006. The US also had strong influence with the IMF when it came to some further UK debt restructuring and loans in the mid sixties. It was easy for them to apply pressure on the UK to buy a US aircraft. They didn't even have to resort to the bribery that they needed to influence F-104 sales with Germany and others (which also affected other potential UK export projects).

[@Steven-p4j]

The yanks always interfered so much, you would have thought the Americans had invented everything.

[@Statueshop297]

Who needs enemies with friends like that😂😂😂😂 I really hope we don’t see a repeat with tempest. I think it’s unlikely as it’s a joint project.

[@johnvaleanbaily246]

And so went Britain's aerospace industry...thanks Labour Party.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

It was already dying. The party of government had no links to its decline as the Conservatives cancelled many more advanced programmes.

[@tonysadler5290]

I lived and grew up around Hatfield (home of De Havaland/Hawker Sidley. Ww2 Mosquitos were made there and Trident aircraft and early rocketry) in the 60s My father was a project engineer for Hawker Sidley group. The thing that killed of the brilliant TSR2 was that we needed to fund it by loans from the IMF. These were blocked by the US Secretary of state Mc Namara and would only vote to support the UK on condition we scrapped TSR2 and bought the US F111. At the same time Australia cancelled their orders in favour of supporting the US F111. Mountbatten, who loved the US, also lobbied hard against the home aircraft industry in favour of the US F111. He said he could have 5 Buccaneers for one TSR2. Don't forget, the armed forces always get cut by conservative governments. In the past 14 yrs the standing land forces cut to 75000! Less than in Blair's time. Naval cuts such that we cannot put a decent taskforce together, and the dockyards lifts that service submarines have ceased to work through lack of maintenance. This means that a number of our deterrent vessels cannot put to sea. I am a former Coxswain Petty Officer. Where have those savings gone? Well many conservative PPE contracts have ended up buying mansions in the countryside, offshore trusts belonging to the likes of "Baroness " Moan et al have swelled by 30 miiion quid plus. Some of thoes contracts were for 100s of millions - and none of the equipments was of use. My father said that the UK was too small to be able to fund its industry - he always said that if we were to compete and win on the global leval, european firms would have to combine and pool resources. This indeed came about giving us Concorde, Tornado, Typhoon and several other ground braking and world beating aircraft.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

@tonysadler5290 nothing thing that killed the TSR2 (and the railways) was economic mismanagement by the Conservatives. What do you think caused the Sterling Crises between November 1964 and November 1967. What ended them was the devaluation of Sterling by 14% from US$2.80 down to US$2.40 per £1.

[@nmarks]

Labour ensured that Concorde was delivered.

[@nmarks]

@@tonysadler5290 Well said.

[@peterhuxley8181]

Part of the trouble with the cost increases was caused by every spare civil servant being added to so-called design committees and their costs being added to the project costs. Maybe the aircraft was trying too hard but what really killed it was politics.

[@richardvernon317]

It didn't work!!! Couldn't meet the RAF's Operational Requirements in almost all regards!! RAF told Major Healy RE MBE and Lt Callanhan RN to bin the thing and buy F-111!!

[@mrjockt]

The TSR-2 would have been like any new combat aircraft entering service, with many problems that needed to be resolved as they were found by operational units, its U.S. competitor the F-111 didn't exactly cover itself in glory the first couple of years it was in operational service. People remember the TSR-2 being cancelled but don't seem to remember the other two projects cancelled the same day, the Hawker P.1154 supersonic V/STOL interceptor for the RAF and RN, and the AW.681, later HS.681, STOL transport, both cancellations resulted in U.S. aircraft being procured, F-4 Phantoms and C-130 Hercules.

[@Hanking-Warry]

US JUMP . . . UK HOW HIGH?

[@JohnSmith-ei2pz]

Not as troublesome as the A400M white Elephant!

[@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus]

The F-111 was Mach 0.35 faster, and carried 3+ times the load, flew 700 miles further, had a better climb rate, and a higher service ceiling. The first flights of both aircraft were in 1964.

[@Statueshop297]

@@fantabuloussnuffaluffagusbut that is taking the best version of the F111 and the entry model of the TSR2. While the F111 was a useful aircraft its development was painful and costs increased substantially. Would the TSR2 of had similar issues is an unknown unfortunately

[@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus]

@@Statueshop297 There was only the "entry model" of TSR2. The gap is wide enough that TSR2 was unlikely ever to come close to closing it.

[@adamningsk]

That Was a Total Nightmare for America if it was build.

[@chrispickrell4027]

Thank you so correct.

[@sapper82]

It would have given the RAF a credible 1st strike capability on the US missile bases!

[@Hanking-Warry]

That's why the US government had it cancelled.

[@JimmyJamesJ]

​@@sapper82 Under the Nassau Agreement of 1962, the US sold Polaris SLBMs to the UK. The UK fitted each Polaris missile with three UK designed ET.317, 225kT, thermonuclear warheads and installed them on four purpose built Resolution Class nuclear powered ballistic missile submarines. The first Resolution Class submarine entered service two years after the cancellation of the TSR2 in 1967, and the fourth in 1969. The UK then purchased Trident II SLBMs from the US for the current Vanguard Class submarines which replaced the Resolution Class which will be upgraded by the US for the new Dreadnought Class which is currently under construction. The UK has always had the capability to strike US missile bases because the US sold that capability to the UK. You don't know what you're talking about.

[@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus]

The US had Mach 2 aircraft 10 years before TSR-2 flew.

[@robert-wr6md]

A pointy nose, a rare thing on an aircraft.

[@Sacto1654]

It was an interesting idea, but the plane was too narrowly focused on the nuclear strike role from the outset. In the early 1960's, Blackburn offered essentially a scaled-up Buccaneer that could have fulfilled most of the TSR.2 requirements at a fraction of the cost, and it's possible because of its lower cost, it could have interested other European air forces in buying this upscaled Buccaneer for their use. Interestingly, many of the designers on the TSR.2 project ended up working on the British contribution to a far more successful interdiction airplane project, the Panavia Tornado. Unlike the TSR.2, the Tornado could carry more conventional weapons and because of its swing wing design, could also operate out of much shorter runways, too. It's only very recently that the RAF finally retired the Tornado, though that plane still had plentiful life left as a viable interdiction platform.

[@richardvernon317]

Buccaneer couldn't meet the Operational Requirement in 1960 period!!!

[@MrShaneSunshine]

The politics sounds just like what sunk the Avro Arrow in Canada. 🥺....and then i read all the other similar comments! 😂

[@timp3931]

How about you cannot buy a plane which takes up the entire capital budget for your entire armed forces for years?

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

The British economy was a basket case into the mid-1960s. Between 1952 and October 1964, the Conservative government followed a dash for growth economic policy that caused cyclic booms and busts and allowed trade deficits to grow in the expectation that future growth would reduce these defecits (hint it never did). These policies led to the announcement shortly after taking over the government of the UK by Labour of trade defecit figures delayed by the election. The expected trading deficit was half of the £800 million that was announced. This led to the first of the Sterling crises that rock the UK until Tge devaluation of Sterling in November 1967.

[@Idahoguy10157]

Britain never did buy the F-111…

[@anthonycollingridge970]

Correct. The original quoted delivery schedule & price could not be met by the Americans, and typically for the british they insisted in retro fitting their own RR engines, just like with the Phantom F4's.

[@Idahoguy10157]

@@anthonycollingridge970 …the development costs of making the F-111 into squadron service were huge. Plus only Australia was an export customer. I would expect the TSR-1 costs would be similar. Who really lost was the advanced British aircraft industry. The cancellation was a blow they never recovered from

[@JohnSmith-ei2pz]

BAe maintained it! Good days long ago!

[@chrispickrell4027]

@@Idahoguy10157 Thankyou -- quite correct.

[@RJM1011]

No they cancelled it because it was going to cost even more than the TSR2 and had to pay the USA because they cancelled it so wasting even more of the UK's taxpayers money. Then had to buy other aircraft to do the same work as the TSR2 would have done !

[@richardsweet5068]

I was involved in both, TSR2 as an apprentice and I returned to Bristol RR factory as in inspector in 1980 as an inspector building the RB199 engines for the Tornado.

[@mostlynew]

And ❓

[@JohnSmith-ei2pz]

Were you responsible for RB199 and RR being bankrupted?

[@richardsweet5068]

@@JohnSmith-ei2pz Oops, it was the tea break what done it!

[@NetZeroNo]

I worked at the RR factory in Bristol in the late 70s and as an apprentice saw the last Concorde being built (it is now back as a museum piece). Talking to many of the old hands it was clear that many of the lessons learned developing the TSR2 Olympus engines went into the 593s which were used in Concorde. Of course Concorde cruised dry at over Mach 2 - though it used reheat for t/o and transition through the sound barrier. We are still to catch up with many of the technologies of the 70s. Just think a whole generation is convinced the moon landings were faked - simply on the belief that their generation can only dream of achieving it!

[@JohnSmith-ei2pz]

BAe built Concorde nor RR! False information!

[@NetZeroNo]

@@JohnSmith-ei2pz actually BAe did not build Concorde - it was a joint manufacturing with Aerospatial in France. The Olympus 593s used solely in Concorde were developed from the TSR2 Olympus engine and manufactured in Bristol. The RR factory was right next door to BAe in Filton and I was able to visit the factory there while it was being manufactured. I never claimed RR made Concorde - but the 593 was a real beast and most of north Bristol heard if one surged on a testbed - just as they heard Concorde take off!

[@RJM1011]

@@JohnSmith-ei2pz It was still BAC back then !

[@JohnSmith-ei2pz]

@@NetZeroNo So never worked on it, just a visitor?

[@heckell4181]

Majestic. Could fly competitively today. TSR2 Avro Arrow YF23 They were just too good. Majestic. All win by looks.

[@ianturpin9180]

At the same time a Canadian labour government canceled the avro arrow. Two of the most advanced aircraft of their time.

[@gort8203]

The TSR2 would have been an advanced aircraft in the 1950's, but it was maybe a decade behind when it first flew in 1964. The XB-70 flew that same year and was canceled. The B-58 was in service but already showing signs of obsolescence in the face of the growing threat from SAMs. The RAF could already see that the TSR2 was going to be outclassed by the F-111. It seems the reason the government poured money into the TSR2 for as long as it did was to try to support the British Aerospace industry, but the TSR2 was not the right plane to save it.

[@abbush2921]

Conservative learn some history and don't bullshit !

[@ianturpin9180]

​@@gort8203I used to work trawlers out of Iluka NSW. There is a bomb rang to the north. We used to be able to pick up. f111s on our commercial radars at 90 miles.. then there is the fact of side by side seating of the pilot and WO. This was the late 80s.

[@gort8203]

@@ianturpin9180 I have no idea what you point is.

[@ianturpin9180]

@@gort8203 the F111 was a lemon. The pilot only had visibility over one side of the aircraft. That is why modern jets have tandem seating.And the Tsr2 could do Mach speeds at 200 ft. What other plane of the time could do this.

[@malfunction8165]

As somebody once said. Britain was built by people wearing boiler suits, and demolished by people wearing business suits.

[@jeremyrichards8327]

"All the advanced technology made it extremely expensive " just like the F35 so history repeats itself. Dennis Healey was the chancellor who cancelled TSR2 They wanted to keep the finished aircraft flying but were prohibited. The F111 was more expensive but after losses in Vietnam was eventually made good. At least we can still see the 2 remaining aircraft and think what could have been.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

And after the Pound was devalued the F-111 was even more expensive.

[@magnox72]

The TSR2 failed because some W⚓ in the UK government at the time took a backhander to scrap it and buy the F111. There was nothing wrong with the plane

[@scottpaulhubbard8771]

They sold us out for money

[@richardvernon317]

Wrong!! Everything was wrong with the plane!!!

[@josega6338]

Interestingly, an Olympus turbine, derived from those in Avro Vulcan, similar to Concorde turbines, was offered for sale, it was in exhibition at an airport, for around 20'000 sterling. TSR2 never flew more than 100 hrs

[@cynthiakoehne7004]

I just imagine a modern version capable of Mach 4-5 with a geodesic design and a hybrid ram-jet engine designed by the skunk works, oh and use the radar absorbent skin from the SR-71+ models!

[@michaelchristensen5421]

Looks like a longer fuselage with narrower wings A-5 Vigilante.

[@Nimboid-20]

Slight slip in the commentary - there were two completed aircraft, not one, but the second was undergoing preparatory checks for its first flight when cancellation was ordered. It missed out by a couple of days.

[@peter7235]

The problems with landing gear vibrations were investigated and resolved by the end of the project. Fire trucks put a lot of foam on the runway, reducing the friction, and sensors were installed on the aircraft to measure the oscillations during touchdown and coasting. As with all new designs, teething problems are to be expected, and the ones on the TSR2 were minor, unlike the F111 who had problems with the wing sweeping mechanism resulting in many incidents in the US and Australia during the first years of their service. The TSR2 and the Avro Arrow were superior and well ahead of any other design or concept of that time. They were a serious rival to the F-111 and the US reasoned that they needed to be taken out quickly. In the end, the Brits got nothing out of the deal to replace the TSR2. This, together with the belief that aircraft were soon going to be replaced by missiles, lead to the cancellation of the project. I doubt it costed $21 billion. Yes, the Americans are always keen to cooperate, as long as it's advantageous to them. They did the same with the nuclear missiles the UK was developing after the war. The UK was ahead, and the US proposed to cooperate and promised cheap Polaris missiles to the UK. The UK transferred all their nuclear knowledge, but the Polaris missiles never came.

[@JohnSmith-ei2pz]

The Yanks were happy to take Nazi scientists as they were more advanced and absolve them of any crimes against humanity..

[@richardvernon317]

The landing gear problems were a very minor issue!!! it was the problems with the rest of the aircraft and the systems going into it being tested in other aircraft which were all going wrong and no amount of money or time was going to fix them. TSR2 had a butt load of major problems which were not fixable!!!! All of the official documents on the project were declassified in 1994/95. The people who killed it were the RAF!! They found that the aircraft was not capable of meeting any of the Operational requirements in late 1964 / early 1965 and they had a fit!!! Cut along story short RAF told Healy to can the project and buy the F-111!!!

[@boneym7828]

The TSR 2 is in the Imperial War Museum in Duxford.

[@PhilipAlvers]

Harold Wilson = King Midas in Reverse!!!

[@Deepthought-42]

When the TSR2 cancelled, many of the electronic components held in bonded store were sold off a knock down rates to a contractor. The were then bought back and charged to other projects at full market prices.

[@markhill4526]

There were 2 complete tsr2's. The 2nd was due to fly when the project was cancelled. It would flown had it not fallen off it's transporter earlier.

[@NurseTwoFeet]

What is failed to mention is the tech of the TSR2 went into the development of the Tornado. Such as modular tech.

[@markusparkus68]

That taught the U.K aviation industry for out-engineering the U.S....we did end up with U.S Phantoms I suppose...at least they let us keep the Harrier...and ended up using them themselves of course....

[@khankrum1]

Odd how so many of TSR2's features wound up in the Tomcat and Tomahawk cruise missiles!

[@alexandremarcelino7360]

Aeronave incrível! Muito bonita.

[@StuartPeacock-e2t]

Almost a repeat of the fate of the Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow

[@RJM1011]

The problem with it was the UK government asking for an aircraft to do the work of up to four aircraft and not thinking this was going to cost more to start with. The same has been seen with the F35 that is being built now. In the long run it would have been cheaper and BETTER to keep the TSR2. Labour always make mess whenever they get into Number 10. They don't save the taxpayers any money they just waste it somewhere else putting the UK into more debt than before sadly. This can be seen with the Iraq war, Dr Kelly, the NHS and the Dunblane cover up and lies and now in 2024 with the money for the heating for the folks of the UK. They have started kicking people out of the UK that are already here working and paying tax but do NOTHING about the rubber boat people. Now they want to bring in a four day working week so making people even more poor in the UK. Just look at what they did after the TSR2 with the F111 they then cancelled that and had to pay the USA because they cancelled the F111's for the RAF ! If it was possible to build a new TSR2 today in 2024 it would still be an amazing aircraft for the RAF and others to use. Thank you.

[@trevordayt2341]

History will probably repeat itself. This new Government will probably axe the Tempest program in the forth coming Defence Review along with other high value platforms.

[@tonycavanagh1929]

Missiles were going to replace it to deliver the nukes

[@annoyingbstard9407]

Obviously airplane lovers bemoan the fact this aircraft was cancelled, unfortunately none of them seem to have done their research into why. In the mid sixties the Labour government was trying its upmost to resist devaluing the pound (something that may not even be understood with today’s economics) after vowing not to do so prior to the 1964 election. To this end they were forced to borrow money to try to stave up sterling, the principle loans at this time were from the IMF and federal reserve. 1) To imagine there weren’t strings attached to these would be ridiculous. 2) export sales would never justify the expense of building the aircraft 3) in any event export sales are ALWAYS funded by lines of credit rather than hard cash sales 4) there was a growing awareness that a few dozen aircraft would have no affect whatsoever at the several thousand ICBMs the USSR could launch by this time Eventually, despite the cancellation the Wilson government was forced to devalue the pound and apply for further loans from the IMF.

[@SeanHogan_frijole]

A beautiful airplane

[@richardbailey3343]

The TSR 2 did make production 60+of them on the production line before the project was cancelled.

[@TheGrantourismo]

Bomber in an aerial combat? High-altitude bombs for low-altitude penetrator? Seems OK for UK.

[@binderchannel9454]

When British had not yet realized that there were no superpower anymore.

[@euphegeniadoubtfire1364]

This is nothing compared to the nightmare cost overruns of the American F35 development.

[@AntonyBall-hm4jo]

The official reason it was cancelled was down to costs. The unofficial reason why it was cancelled was because the Yanks had nothing to match it at the time - same as Concorde and the 'noise issue' in the states.

[@richardvernon317]

Real reason it was cancelled was because BAC had totally fucked the design up!!! It couldn't meet the operational requirements in almost all regards. Same reason that Nimrod AEW 3 and MRA 4 were canned. Bloody thing couldn't do what it was designed to do!!

[@oxcart4172]

And completely outclassed by the F-111

[@sparehead8911]

Was it?

[@shaymcquaid]

The real question is who is aviation artist responsible for the thumbnail?

[@DarrenSloan]

I remember as a kid having a toy t,s,r, 2

[@philipdurling1964]

Looks remarkably similar to the F111.

[@ElsinoreRacer]

It would be fun if all the cool planes got built. I wish the B-70 happened, but it made no sense. The B-58 was retired for the same reasons. The TSR-2 was essentially an F-105/B-58 hybrid.... and made no sense. Laugh at the F/B-111, but the plane it ended up being is what GB should have built or bought. I see Concord references in the comments... yes, would have been fun to have a USA SST, but supersonic flight was never going to be permitted over the USA (and it IS permitted WHERE?). The economics for purely trans-oceanic flight were never going to make sense. This was no secret in the journals of the time. It was ALWAYS going to be a huge financial black hole. We passed on that one, you didn't. Congrats???? The Canadian Arrow... lovely. But while it was still being worked up, the threat had changed. Its mission was being obsoleted during the ramp-up. The mistake wasn't cancelling it, the mistake was taking it so far and getting everyone so invested (in every meaning of the term) before they pulled the plug. Unfun facts are unfun, but they are still the facts. P.S. The Mosquito was the best warplane ever built by anybody.

[@JimmyJamesJ]

10:52 Who wrote this total BS? The TSR2 was a multirole low level strike and reconnaissance aircraft.

[@JohnSmith-ei2pz]

BS! Nuclear bomber duh.......

[@magikjoe3789]

Tactical Strike & Reconnaissance mach 2. ​@@JohnSmith-ei2pz

[@jasongomez5344]

Always funny to hear an American say "Canberra".

[@lynnkramer1211]

Richard Nixon 's tenure as the 37th president of the United States began with his first inauguration on January 20, 1969, not 1964 as you asserted.

[@marcelgaud]

I thought that this was the Canadian Avro............

[@stevedoggart2805]

Beaumont is pronounce BOE-MONT ya pie

[@mikecrux2370]

The labour government killed the UK aviation industry, particularly the civil aviation industry. The idea of French collaboration killed much of the industry, whilst creating the French aviation industry leading to Airbus. However the protectionist nature of the main markets like the US made it largely impossible to build enough aircraft to be economically viable

[@Steven-p4j]

A stunning aircraft, which in all likelihood competed with the American F-111, and in many ways was superior.

[@TheGrantourismo]

And in many ways inferior.

[@YinandYangandGreen]

It was stated that the British Wilson government agreed to cancel the TSR2 program in 1965 in exchange for the approval by the US of a multi billion pound loan from the IMF to support the UK economy. Famous economist John Maynard Keynes, who was unfortunately dead by then, knew that the Bank of England could issue as many pounds as was needed by the UK government so as to be able to purchase anything that was for sale and denominated in British pound sterling. It was Keynes after all that more than anyone else that provided the theoretical foundations of the funding of the WW2 mobilisation of Britain, the Commonwealth and of the United States that had accepted his theories. The British government NEVER NEEDS TO BORROW BRITISH POUNDS FROM THE IMF or anyone else, apart from the Bank of England. The TSR2 program and general government austerity and the associated mass unemployment that curses Britain to the present day was therefore imposed based on lies and ignorance.

[@cynthiakoehne7004]

the F84U-D was the real plane

[@grahamkearnon6682]

Post WWll Britain was broke, it's MPs and heads of each military branch (upper class toffs to a man) still harbored the days of empire, however silly it sounded. So the rations continued as countless billions was blown on the toys air commodore s & Admirals dreamed of, atomic bombs were designed, built & tested. Britain today needs to realize it's just the sixth largest economy & a small island on the western edge of Europe and, nothing else.

[@steveread4021]

It pains me to say it, but you are right. We still have toffee nosed anachronisms like Rees Mogg, but at least he no longer has a seat. This kind of jingoistic thinking caused brexit, the biggest fuck up we have made in years.

[@JohnSmith-ei2pz]

Yes no money and no effective industry. The country was bankrupted fighting the German, French, Italians and all countries who agreed with fascism.

[@Rugbyman269]

I seem to remember Harold Wilson and his catch phrase " the white heat of technology , the fact is that labour then as now would rather spend taxpayers money than actually make money .

[@melc311]

But at least you aren't speaking german

[@JohnSmith-ei2pz]

@@melc311 That's the "royal" family!!

[@VivekSingh-nl6hs]

Incidents like show why politicians sitting comfortably in chairs shouldn't make decisions for the army and its wellbeing

[@billpugh58]

Cancellation was the correct choice, the Tornado was a far better aircraft for UK requirements in the Cold War.

[@mingology7767]

This is how to make America great again…

[@deltavee2]

Canada's Avro Arrow suffered much the same fate after murky dealings with the Americans. Plane cancelled and our aviation industry moved south where there were jobs. I'll never forgive Prime Minister Diefenbaker for caving to the US and presiding over the destruction of the efforts of some of the best and brightest in the world.

[@ammoalamo6485]

Robot, go home.

[@cynthiakoehne7004]

it looks like a Vought crusader on steroids, and the super crusader would have been the meanest plane to fly, HINT, HINT

[@phillipphil1615]

Before you place responsibility on labor or other governments, remember the French though part of NATO and with alternating conservative and socialist governments, have always maintained a world class weapons industry.

[@chitranshusom3451]

So the Americans have been arm twisting even U.K since that long 😂. I thought that they employed such tactics with third world countries only.

[@petehoney1]

Huge huge waste of money that could have been used much betrer ..

[@jasonaris5316]

This was used by the RAF as the reason to scrap the RNs fleet carriers In the end the services lost both

[@TheGrantourismo]

TSR2 could not be used on the flattops even with EM catapult and JATO.

[@jasonaris5316]

@@TheGrantourismo nope but the RAF claimed every stretch of water the carriers operated in could be covered by long range fighters and bombers Oh except the Falklands

[@patk8417]

And Canada lost the Arrow only to gain Bomark missiles and f-101 voodoos. Two highly advanced programs flushed down the Crapper! I am sure that they would be perfectly wonderful frontline aircraft to this day, obviously with upgrades in avionics and systems.

[@timp3931]

And to think the F-111 and A-6 are out of service, but the Arrow and TSR-2 would live on. Laughable.

[@steviem8466]

Yerp, the yanks blackmailed both UK and Canadian governments!

[@TorchMagick]

When political idiocy overruns the necessity to defend a nation.. Truly sad.

[@cynthiakoehne7004]

what a waste not to build this plane, like Canada great aircraft bad government!

[@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus]

In 1954 it would have been amazing, in 1964 (when it actually flew) there was no point.

[@cliffdixon6422]

If there was no point, why have the RAF got low level strike aircraft to this day? F111 was ordered (Then cancelled) leading to Buccaneer filling the gap before the introduction of Tornado. Indeed, both Buccaneer and Tornado were involved in low level strike during the first Gulf War taking out enemy airfields and Missile sites. Tactical strike on the battlefield is still a huge part of modern warfare, it was just the nuclear aspect that was no longer needed and TSR2 could deliver conventional weapons too

[@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus]

@@cliffdixon6422 It's not that the idea of low level strike was wrong, clearly not. It's that the TSR2 was not the best aircraft available for the job. The F-111 was faster, had longer range, and could carry more than 3x the load. Both aircraft first flew the same year. Cleary, TSR2 missed the mark. The real tragedy, the same story as the Avro Arrow over in Canada, is that all the industry, talent, and effort that went into designing the aircraft was squandered.

[@cliffdixon6422]

@@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus F111 had much bigger cost overruns than TSR2 (Hence the RAF order cancellation), the range was not an issue in the European theatre where TSR2 was more than adequate and a bigger bomb load doesn't equate to better results - The avionics that would have been fitted to TSR2 would enable tree top height and pinpoint delivery at Mach 1. TSR2 would also have been in service far quicker as the test programme was almost complete and most of the bugs ironed out - F111 went in to service in the early 70's with the Aussies and was grounded shortly afterwards due to a problem with the variable geometry wings where they locked up and in one case fell off. If F111 was so superior, why were the Tornados and Buccaneers doing the high speed and low level work and the F111 was only used as a 'Wild Weasel' ECM aircraft during Desert Storm? The Bucc was a great airframe (As proved during Red Flag events where the USAF had trouble intercepting it) whilst Tornado was the replacement - Indeed, the F3 Tornado ADV was a limited aircraft but because of the ground attack origins was very useful at low level and could intercept F111's on exercises

[@cybair9341]

The same political scam happened in Canada with the Avro Arrow. The U.S. bought the competition.

[@jonfallis305]

funny how the yanks also undermined concorde

[@MarkMullins-r5v]

As an American I can say American was still pumping so much money into post WWII allies that the UK and Canada had no choice but to accept the F104, F4and F16. The reality was two amazing aircraft (one UK, one Canadian never came to be.

[@nmarks]

UK adopted the F4, but never the F104 or F16.

[@andyb.1026]

The US tried the same trick with colonising France, who told them to FO, threw the Yanks out of the country, built their own superb military and Commercial Aircraft, space program, Nuke Subs etc etc 😂

[@deltavee2]

@@andyb.1026 Nice to know there's at least one country with blz.

[@timp3931]

Maybe they cost too much.

[@OldeJanner]

Communist Party agitators were as able then as they are now! And the building problems are a red herring.

[@fraserparsons3813]

A remarkably similar story to the cancellation of the Avro Arrow in Canada . . . allowing USA to acquire intellectual engineering talent and future markets for armaments.

[@davidporter9131]

Very biased and factually incorrect.

[@wojteksmag8286]

It is a significant fact - not so much the closure of the TSR-2 program, but its complete erasure. The mandatory destruction of all elements, prototypes, parts and documentation is strange. It resembles best practices from the USSR - only in the UK the designers survived. A comparison with the Avro Arrow comes to mind - a very advanced project that could have become a threat to the USSR - is suddenly closed after Labor came to power. Only in Canada was not even a museum specimen allowed to be preserved. A conspiracy theory or the actions of agents?

[@timp3931]

How can a defensive, interceptor aircraft be a threat to the USSR? Think!

[@wojteksmag8286]

@@timp3931 Elementary Dr. Watson! After all, the Avro Arrow fleet stationed in Canada was to be openly directed against the "peace-bearing and flower-bearing" Soviet bombers... And in addition, no one said that based on the Arrow experience, some "Strike Arrow Mk.2" would not be born - for deep penetration of Soviet anti-aircraft defense. And so - the program was erased, traces of it carefully erased, the enemy's arms industry was solidly reduced - and all this by the hands of "useful idiots" believing the propaganda about doves of peace (with A-bombs)!

[@timp3931]

@@wojteksmag8286 There was no requirement in the RCAF for a "strike Arrow". They bought the Starfighter for that role, partially based on cost.

[@wojteksmag8286]

@@timp3931 Of course there was no order for such a plane. And probably it didn't even exist in the minds of the designers. But the EXPERIENCED team that designed and put the Arrow into production had the opportunity to reach further. I referred to the strike version of the already proven F-15 to show how the project can be developed. Unfortunately - the project was destroyed, the team was dispersed and Canada lost the chance to develop its economy. Champagne corks popped in the Kremlin...

[@carrickrichards2457]

TSR-2 had 3 problems: US want less export competition and wanted UK to buy US; UK government was idealogically hostile to the development; UK's economy was a basket case. Any of these could have ended the TSR-2 alone. A working TSR-2 (including design templates) was preserved at Cranfield.

[@paulqueripel3493]

Working? I thought the last remaining TSR2 is missing a lot of parts.

[@timp3931]

Export competition? The F-111 was only exported to one country, only 24 built for them. Over 500 F-111s were built.

[@beejay7665]

Hire a human. Thumbs down

[@ianross225]

The Labour Party has been appalling for decades and this dire party rules yet again. Shame on the Tories and those who voted for Labour and failure.

[@JohnSmith-ei2pz]

Take pity on the simpletons!

[@steviem8466]

Shame on the british public for allowing themselves to be brainwashed by the globalist Deep State

[@RJM1011]

The USA also tried to stop the Concorde from being built also and wasted over a billion Dollars trying to build their own type !

[@LeeHarris]

Cam-berra?? seriously??? Yanks need to learn how to speak ingleeeeeeeeshhhhh

[@richardvangelder3666]

What can you say??? Limmy built, limmy shite!!!

[@andrewwmacfadyen6958]

The amount of rubbish written and posted about the TSR2 is incredible. The truth is technology and military requirements were changing so fast that any any new combat aircraft stood a better than 50% chance of being obsolete before it entered service. The TSR2 was a very advanced airframe design. The technical issues of the project were mainly due to it being pushed along too quickly because the funding was under threat. Would the aircraft really have been better than what the UK's defence requirements actually turned out to be probably not. The truth is an advanced version of the Buccaneer properly tailored to the RAF's would have served them better allowing what turned out to be the Tornado to be more advanced

[@aquaden8344]

It's strange, that the Canadian Arrow experienced the same end as the TSR 2. There all production facilities and the prototypes got scrapped also to kill the project once and for all. It's striking, that two very advanced projects got cancelled in favor of American missiles and later American planes like the F-101 for Canada or the F-111 for England. It makes me wonder how much the US was involved in the demand to destroy everything of the two projects to get rid of competition.

[@mrradman2986]

The US military-industrial complex has much to answer for.

[@johnconlon9652]

Born in Preston, Lancashire, near the English Electric factories building Lightnings and Canberras, I remember the shenanigans over its cancellation; devastating for the local working population At the time, LBJ was trying to get the brits involved in Viet Nam, which might have involved me! Rebuffed by Harold Wilson, the spiteful texan not only shafted the british economy as a whole but destroyed aircraft development in the uk. Homo sapiens sapiens (!) G'aes a brek! PS Vide infra ('see below' in Latin) about the Canadian Avro Arrow.

[@FloridaManMatty]

McNamara and the F-111 killed the TSR-2. He and his minions were dead set on the F-111 being THE go-to airplane in the US and (hopefully) the rest of NATO and any other favored nation who wanted to buy some freedom. Not unlike the Arrow, the US just couldn’t and wouldn’t sit idly by and let ANY competition exist. We killed Avro and yanked up all of the out of work aerospace engineers that fiasco caused, then we took our ball and stomped all the way home and refused to play nice until we got our way and gutted the British aerospace industry too.

[@mikemyers8064]

This plane was way ahead of America and Russia. You need to get your facts right.

[@williamcallister3276]

The TSR2 was great aircraft but the Americans wanted the f111and got are government to cancel it would have outclassed f111

[@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus]

The F-111 was Mach 0.35 faster, and carried 3+ times the load, flew 700 miles further, had a better climb rate, and a higher service ceiling. The first flights of both aircraft were in 1964.

[@srijanme]

British bull shi is what it is 😂😂😂