The 4 Most Powerful, Epic Battles in Star Trek are Actually Better Than Star Wars

[@ClayHales]

Modern viewers watching DS9 streaming to see how good this is will still miss the impact a weekly broadcast schedule had on the audience. Seeing that To Be Continued and waiting a week to see it is something you don't get much any more. The anticipation building up all week knowing that this is going to be epic, and then sitting down to watch this masterpiece...it was a great time to be a Trek fan.

[@rdbivins3]

Except *this* cliffhanger lasted two weeks. It's all we talked about at work. 😊

[@02ujtb00626]

For real. I was talking about this with my father recently. While the instant gratification is pleasing, it doesn't lend a candle to the suspense of what might happen. We all know the hero's will prevail of course, but the time away between conclusions had us all talking about the what ifs. As a result that space of what ifs the hero's winning so much more satisfying. I couldn't imagine watching Buffy in streaming and having the same reaction of relief when she finally defeated Angel (for example). It wouldn't have had the same emotional connection.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

Well said. I will never forget all those To Be Continueds! Every one was better than the last. I never wanted it to stop

[@Ithinkiwill66]

And, learning that the VCR didn't record it....and had to wait for another week 🙄 😂

[@54raynor]

Decided to re-watch “Best of Both Worlds” awhile back, and it is this scenario taken up to 11. That episode is up there with “Who Shot JR” on the list of greatest season-ending cliffhangers, and the moment gets completely lost in streaming. Still a phenomenal episode that arguably deserves to be on this list, but definitely loses something in the streaming era.

[@madwedge1]

The Defiant was never leading the assault against the Borg in First Contact. They were just part of the fleet. Riker announces that "The Admirals ship has been destroyed" when the Enterprise arrives, that's when Picard announces that he's taking command of the fleet over comms.

[@keithallver2450]

Also Worf at that time was only a Lt. Commander. Not the rank that would be leading a fleet into battle.

[@Ithinkiwill66]

Seemed like both Wolf 359 battle, and Sector 001, both Admiral ships destroyed.....Enterprise D and E both survived the battles, therefore truly those ships ARE the Enterprise vessels, just like the one in WW2...became the surviving ship, and America's most decorated ❤

[@poil8351]

of course a lt. commander hypothetically could be in charge of a task force. don't forget that data was a lt. commander but was appointed as a acting captain agaisnt the romulans. so no reason a lt. commander couldn't be an acting task force commander.

[@keithallver2450]

@@poil8351 Data was given command of a ship. Picard led the task force against the Romulans. Thats because only an Admiral or Captian can lead a task force or battle fleet.

[@rodneyjackson7147]

@@Ithinkiwill66 go big E

[@acerpg]

Also, don't forget the space battles in The Expanse. They seem to have taken a lot of actual physics into account. I like the idea that ballistic weapons and projectiles will be more deadly than lasers which at astronomical distances can be avoided.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

Expanse is super realistic. Love it for that

[@daveclarke5766]

The Expanse was based on a series of books, which each season represented one book with the base story intact, made it a masterpiece in story telling.

[@ScottRutter]

I actually prefer The Expanse's space battles - Trek/Wars make far too many magical physics assumptions to make the stakes feel real to me. The Expanse let's more physics arbitrate the action.

[@colinmoore5991]

Lasers travel at the speed of light. Ballistic weapons and projectiles would have far less range, not to mention being far easier to avoid and outrun.

[@thomaskositzki9424]

@@colinmoore5991 Lasers need way to much energy - even for a ship equiped with a fusion reactor - to be able to do actual damage at range. They are used as communication beams and to overload sensors in "The Expanse". Rapid firing ballistic weapons are CQB weapons and point defense in that universe. Most of the actual ship-killing is done by missiles.

[@KarlBunker]

I don't have a clothes dryer, and when the weather is good I hang my washed clothes out on a line to dry. Invariably, as I'm doing so I'll look up at the sky and say, "Today is a good day to dry." I'm pretty sure my dog appreciates the joke, every time.

[@EndPoliticalCorruption]

That is _so_ dumb, it's funny. Upvoted.

[@stevejordan7275]

Something like that also works when my brother comes by for dinner, and then helps with the dishes. He'll say, "You want me to do the washing?" And I say, "No, Mister Bond, I expect you to dry."

[@ciaranconlon84]

"Auxillary power to weapons, we're going to fight our way out of this!" - Sisko. What a badass departure from literally every other captain diverting power to shields or engines!

[@izzzy03]

because Enterprise and other ships were in fact explorers, Defiant was pure combat ship built in Federation, so technically its hard to fight their way out with them, as Defiant could. Its interceptor design didn't need large deflectors that consume energy so more could redirected to weapons. Not 100% sure but i think Defiant was first Feds ship in series capable of rapid fire

[@treyhelms5282]

Which was another mistake by Sisko. His job was to get through the Dominion fleet, destroying it was impossible. Shields and engines would have been a much better choice than weapons.

[@ldkellandshaw]

Totally disagree. The battle over New Caprica from Battlestar Galactica, especially when the Pegasus jumps in and recues Galactica, is one of the most epic battles ever put to screen.

[@nickmitsialis]

I'll give you that for sure! The trouble with 'Sacrifice of Angels' is that it had too much of the 'cap ships zooming around' instead of slugging it out like ships of the line. Now, IF I had a choice, I would have to say that the Cap ship battles from the space sim Freespace 2 also score very highly--the beam cannons those ships carry and the efforts of the fighters and bombers to 'defang' their opposite number always made for an exciting mission.

[@thomascruise4966]

@@nickmitsialisthis is the reason I love the combat sequences from Babylon 5. You have the same balance of fighters scrapping it out at knife-fighting range but you still get the overall strategic importance and elegance of the Capital ships blazing away with so that massive weaponry… The thing about Operation Return though, what you mentioned about it being all about the zooming around… it’s not a normal pitched space battle. It’s a breakout mission, more like a running play in a football game - open a hole in the enemy line and run like hell before they can catch you. They were doing exactly what they should’ve been doing in a fight that wasn’t about destroying the enemy, but about breaking through their blockade and getting somewhere they don’t want you to. It did what it was supposed to, and damn near perfectly!

[@stanislavkogan]

In my opinion the best battle in BSG is the resurrection ship assault. It was a brilliant idea to show large part of it from a passive observer perspective and, if I'm not mistaken, it was inspired by an actual account from The Battle of Midway.

[@ldkellandshaw]

@@stanislavkogan I do agree that one was awesome too. What I liked about it was that it was real ship of the line stuff. It showed the difference in design philosophies, Basestars trying to stay at range and lobbing missles and raiders, while Colonial Battlestars close to point blank range with their heavy.mounted guns and just blast away, clearly designed with better armor to take the punishment,. New Capricia takes it for me though because of the emotional weight of the scene and the awesome final sacrifice of the Pegasus.

[@fn2_gr]

​@@nickmitsialisYes! Freespace 2 is a masterpiece

[@jonsquare1248]

I'm a fan of both Franchises, but Star Trek has my vote on better space battles. The DS9 episode "The Way of the Warrior" requires a special mention as well.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

Would have been 5 if I’d had 5!

[@freaksdrivingschool3519]

@@GiantFreakinRobot no way, i score that a number 2

[@superamario6464]

Way of the Warrior is one of my utter fave episodes. Superlative ❤

[@Warp10x]

Not putting this in is something we don't forgive, or forget.

[@poil8351]

I actually i think babylon 5 holds up quite well for its era and it is my view alot better than some of the modern cgi slop movie space battles.

[@NightHawke]

Amen, and that's the show Foundation Imaging cut its teeth on. No B5, probably no implausibly laid out DS9 battle sequence. And as far as meaning, I'll take the Battle in "Into The Fire" over the #1 here any day of the year. So six episodes lead up to this, eh? How 'bout 72? From the beginning of the series, the threads were laid down and woven into this ultimate conflict of the series, even seeming throw-away bits in first season episodes. They were all part of the plan. And the stakes, the fate of the entire galaxy! Still and always, B5 > DS9.

[@docHOLLAday53]

@@NightHawke Nope. DS9>B5>TNG

[@Rik_Berryere]

@@NightHawke Absolutely. So, so many little moments that seemed unimportant at the time, then later - often much, much later... hits like a hammer. Air to Morden: "I want to see your head on a pike, as a warning that some prices are too high. And I'll wave to you... like this." And 24 episodes later - two years! He did exactly that.

[@nicholasklangos9704]

Agreed! The last seasons were damn good!

[@mrfixit426]

I feel the battle in Nemesis is often overlooked.

[@mattvinvaktor9774]

that is absolutely the best battle and the fact they skipped it is horrendous.

[@scotth5114]

agreed

[@RaulSmith]

@@mattvinvaktor9774 I think they purposely skipped it because of what happened at the end of the fight and just how absolutely livid Trek fans were about it.

[@bermyvlogger]

could have been epic but was badly written and poorly cgi/effects designed,poorly scaled ,,and dumbly randomly plot armored . it turned out quite silly . right from the onset. a bit too much emotional distraction from seasoned combat officers , wasnt the first time. picard was distracted in first contact same as in nemesis

[@rreevesb3]

Absolutely

[@skycladobserver9246]

B5's Hugo award winning "Severed Dreams" would like a word with you...

[@harryrimmer6830]

The plot of "Battle of the Mutara Nebula" was indeed patterned after the action in a submarine movie; the 1957 World War II film "The Enemy Below". Not only does the "Battle of the Mutara Nebula" owe a serious debt to the writers of this movie, but the episode "Balance of Terror" from the original series does even more so. I had seen "The Enemy Below" before the "Star Trek" TV series was created, and so, recognized the plot and action sequences of the "Star Trek" episodes immediately.

[@qbertq1]

Agreed. Both were very submarine-esque battles, especially WW II era.

[@jamesomeara2329]

In some ways I liked B5 better than DS9. Now yes, the cgi is not photorealistic and may seem dated these days. But where the Star Trek ships seem to have a convergence of tech across these space groups, I think one of the things that B5 did well was create what seemed different technology types across the planetary groups. The Vorlonn were very different from the Earthforce, which would make sense, where the Dominion ships were not that different from the Defiant. At least that's my take.

[@t3h51d3w1nd3r]

Sg1 and Atlantis has some awesome battles and space scenes, one of my favourites is the Apollo coming out of hyperspace with its bomb bay doors already open, it launches the horizon naquadria enhanced nuke, the camera follows the warhead down through the atmosphere till multiple warheads separate and target different locations, then it cuts to a view looking down on the planet with a half dozen mushrooms clouds rising, still blows me away almost 20yrs later, although not as much as the replicators😋. The space battles were epic too.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

I actually did an entire video on how great the SG ships are! Here it is: The Best Stargate Ships From Every Civilization kzbin.info/www/bejne/qYLTo5dmlp11hK8

[@stars9084]

I don’t really agree about Dukat outsmarting Sisko. One of the brilliant things in that episode is that both Sisko and Dukat see through each other. But Sisko is desperate enough that he knows his best shot is to lunge for Dukat’s bait and try to jam the trap open

[@treyhelms5282]

And Sisko would have been wiped out if the Klingons hadn't showed up.

[@QuantumNova]

Enterprise had some good ones too. The two episodes with Xindi space battles were great. Archer tries to stop the Xindi weapon platform with help from Aquatics, and others. "Countdown' is one of the episodes. I can't remember the other one.

[@mdphdetc5853]

Balance of Terror from TOS is the best space battle ever filmed and it was done with 1960s tech and a budget that wouldn't build a single model or allow 2 seconds of CGI today. The fan film Prelude to Axanar is a close second, although Alec Peters' vanity in casing himself in the lead almost ruined the later parts of it. The best battle scenes are not about the action but the people and the ideas behind them.

[@graveyardshowpodcast]

I'm a huge fan of that episode. Top 5 TOS episodes. It plays like a submarine battle, and concludes with a heartbreaking ending. ~ Caretaker

[@eventcone]

Excellent choice. That's a great TOS episode. Love the tension on the bridge and the way Shatner plays Kirk in those scenes. That's the real Kirk for me. The best battles are about the writing and the acting.

[@jimslancio]

If you like Balance of Terror, watch its inspiration, a WW2 movie called The Enemy Below, in which the captains of a US destroyer and a German U-boat fight a battle of wits. There is very little actual fighting, but lots of strategizing. Robert Mitchum is the US destroyer's captain. The Romulan commander (later Spock's father Sarek) had a centurion friend and confidante, corresponding with one of the U-boat captain's officers. By the way, in tribute to numbered torpedo tubes, Balance of Terror is the only episode in the Star Trek franchise in which there are named references to Phaser No. 1 and No. 2.

[@Joe-pd9hj]

TOS gargles balls. To way too dated.

[@jonsquare1248]

Definitely waiting for Axanar. It should be out soon. They finished filming, it's in post production.

[@harryshriver6223]

I also want to mention the fact that the sacrifice of angels was truly a sad episode with the death of Ziyal. I can imagine losing your daughter would be completely shattering to any father. At the time the episode aired my daughter was very young only five and it truly broke my heart.😢

[@thomascruise4966]

I disagree that it comes down to Star Trek vs. Star Wars. You give a nod to the one I think takes the cake for the best space battles in the very beginning: Babylon 5. Considering the much lower budget they had than contemporary Trek shows (and don’t get me wrong - I LOVE DS9!) and their heavier reliance on CGI that was still in its relative infancy, B5 space battles were the best of both worlds between the styles of Trek and Wars that you mentioned: it has the dramatic fighter combat, but it also has the more strategic movements of the larger ships as well. It’s the best of both worlds. Although Operation Return is the best piece of space combat in the Trek franchise, I completely agree with that.

[@mattrajotte]

You got your numbers wrong. Dominion forces: 1254 ships. Starfeet: 1/2 of 1254 so lets say 627. A "large force" of Klingon warships arrived 2 hours later.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

That number was more about what we see rendered on screen.

[@Incogneto1981]

Came here to say this!

[@Cheesygeeky]

You got the battle off 001 wrong too...worf didnt lead it there was a fleet admiral whose ship is destroyed then picard takes over command of the fleet​@@GiantFreakinRobot

[@Thirdbase9]

I'll take Babylon 5's space battles over Star Trek's everyday of the week. I'll even take Balance of Terror's battle over your Number 1.

[@EricRN1977]

I completely agree. The big, flashy set piece battles are cool. However, they don't have the drama of a Balance of Terror, or it's spiritual successor the Mutara Nebula. Despite the cheesy battle damage on both bridges (seriously, the Romulan Centurion was crushed by a giant piece of Styrofoam?) it's some of Shatner's finest acting.

[@Thirdbase9]

@EricRN1977 it's not only that, but those ships are so close together and performing maneuvers that would only work if all ships on both sides were networking.

[@privatename5788]

I'd give an honorable mention to the Second Battle of Chintaka. There's something about seeing a unified Federation/Klingon/Romulan fleet going into battle together that really embodies the essence of Star Trek. Just because someone was your enemy at some point doesn't mean they will never be your ally.

[@iceniwargames6347]

The D doing the death star run in Picard was probably the dumbest thing put to screen in all of trek. Sacrifice of angels is great, but DS9 has an issue with having massive starships fly around like fighters and forgot that the ships have shields.

[@topfives8973]

Federation shields were ineffective against the Dominion from the very beginning.

[@iceniwargames6347]

@@topfives8973 when they first encountered the dominion yes, but by the time the war breaks out the federation had adapted. Wayoun and dakot have a conservation about never underestimating federation engineers. That also would not explain why the Klingon, Cardassian, romulan, Breen and Dominion ships also appear to have no shields most of the time as well.

[@WildReefer]

I think that The Expanse had some amazing space battles and tactics, as well piloting and subversion. Possibly the best.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

The tactics are especially amazing. Visually they go for realism more than exciting, which I respect and enjoy. One thing great about B5 though is that it tries to do both

[@WildReefer]

@GiantFreakinRobot True, but there was a lot of excitement in The Expanse as well, including the battle with the Pella, and the battle against the stationary railguns on the Ring station, when the Roci comes out of the sun to save the day when all seemed lost, and the earlier scene where they were dodging railgun rounds while Peaches repaired the reactor, or the raid on the science station against the stealth ship, or the most exciting battle of all between the Donninger and the stealth ships. Lots of drama and excitement.

[@_bulenty]

There was this one scene i remember when the Rocinante is flying at high speed at an emeny vessel (i can't remember the specifics) and at the last minute spins and lets rip with it's guns. I remember being on the edge of my seat watching that and went back a couple times to rewatch it

[@Michael-dy2lb]

I'd rather see Wrath of Khan sized battles with a few ships involved, an epic story, and great acting than a hundred massive battle sequences with absurd numbers of ships made possible because of CGI. Bigger is not better. Better is better. Wrath of Khan is the peak of Star Trek battles because everything is perfect about it. And that perfection happens twice, at first contact between the Enterprise and Reliant and then at the nebula.

[@stepal6958]

Same. Wrath of Khan had great battles with actual weight to them. Not like the CGI overload in stuff like STD where a thousand drones or whatever were flying around and could barely tell what you were seeing.

[@mjbull5156]

One of the things that bothers me visually about the Sacrifice of Angels battle is that the ships are pictured so close together that they can not maneuver properly or have clear firing arcs without committing fratricide.

[@Michael-dy2lb]

@@mjbull5156 Absolutely right. A lot of these massive CGI battles have as many ships on the screen as they can reasonably fit, without the slightest thought to how they would operate.

[@gotindrachenhart]

Agreed. I get that there's a large gulf of time between TOS and TNG+ eras but seeing huge ships moving like heavy fighters just seems wrong to me. The first two Trek movies are still my favorite because they moved like VESSELS, large, with mass and very serious.

[@FlightLizard]

Enterprise D is still and will forever be my favorite Enterprise.

[@smallcode9981]

There were many "The Best 5,10,20 of....Star Trek" , but the first time I totally agree with the list and the order,

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

We are now best friends.

[@mikesilva3868]

​@@GiantFreakinRobothuge star trek fan 😊

[@stipe3124]

DS9 battle against Klingons and second battle of DS9 when Dominion took it were also very good But i agree with yout choice for the top spot

[@alyssadraculesti]

Nothing tops Severed Dreams though from Babylon 5 Season 3

[@JohnLRice]

Agreed!🥰🙌

[@alexgataric]

I agree. It had a good mix of fighter craft and big ship combat. The number of craft were relatively small so it was easy to understand and be emotionally invested in the crews.

[@AdamPasztory1]

No Surrender, No Retreat also extremely good space battle.

[@bemindful924]

Out of fairness and curiosity I looked up this battle. i can only conclude that I strongly disagree. It looked like a typical Star Wars battle with less exposure to the scope of the battle. The people also looked too static. Some scenes reminded me of specific scenes from Return of the jedi. My apology if you were being sarcastic.

[@JohnLRice]

@@bemindful924 IMHO you really need to watch the entire series from the beginning up to that point to get the full impact. It's about a lot more than just a lot of cool ships shooting at each other and spectacularly exploding like a lot of space battles that are considered the "best". Without understanding and being fully invested in the characters and the dynamics of their relationships and complexities of the political and societal situations and just viewing only the battle I can see how one might view it as less exciting than others.

[@ShnNar1000x]

The DS9 eps where the station took on the Klingon and then the Dominion fleets was also great. That one station, fully armed, was an armada in itself, more than a match for any 10 starships.

[@MWS67]

I've always been a Battlestar fan. The reboot has awesome battle scenes. The more militaristic theme in the reboot is how I picture real space battles being waged.

[@HariSeldon913]

Spock: His battle pattern indicates two dimensional thinking Kirk: Yet he's beating us Spock: Your pattern also indicates two dimensional thinking.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

That’s kind of what he was trying to tell Kirk, in his own Spock way. And Kirk got it. Full circle!

[@eventcone]

@@GiantFreakinRobot Hardly likely, is it? Not only because Kirk was a veteran of many starship combat situations, but mostly because starship officers would be fully versed in the necessity of thinking 3 dimensionally. What I immediately got from Spock's statement was the observation that, having no starship experience (being an individual from the 20th century), Khan just wasn't trained in that kind of combat and continued to fight as he would have done on Earth. And by that point, Khan was no longer 'beating' Kirk. That stopped as soon as Kirk learned who was in command of the Reliant.

[@trekaddict]

@@eventcone To be fair, Kirk needed that pointed out I think. Because once he was reminded of that edge, of needing to get his shit together and focus fully on what he was best at. I think Wrath of Khan contains the best line ever written for Star Trek that sums this and Kirk's post-TOS career up well: "If I may be so bold, it was a mistake for you to accept promotion. Commanding a starship is your first, best destiny; anything else is a waste of material." Once Kirk remembered what he was so insanely good at, it was a matter of time.

[@eventcone]

@@trekaddict It was an apparent feature of Khan's tactics that would be the duty of a bridge officer to report to their Captain/Admiral. That's all. I don't really get anything more from it, to be honest. From the moment that Khan's identity was revealed, and the success of the Enterprise in gaining brief control of the Reliant, Kirk, due to his greater experience, always appeared to have the upper hand and be one step ahead of Khan, even if his own ship had sustained more damage than Reliant.

[@johnharrison6745]

Okay; in 'Sacrifice of Angels', Star-fleet had a fleet of around 600 ships, the Dominion had 1,254 ships, and, at least 200 Star-fleet and Klingon ships broke through the Dominion's lines, and, headed for Deep Space Nine, before the Dominion called a retreat to Card. space.

[@trazyntheinfinite9895]

Lets never forget Gul Whomever, commanding that one Galor which had the "luck" to have EVERY SINGLE Galaxy class in that fleet stop what they were doing and gun it straight formhis Ass. Watch that sequence, in the background you see every galaxy class veer towards this one galor like "MEEE TOOOOO!"

[@randicus1030]

@@trazyntheinfinite9895 He owed all those captains of the Galaxy Classes money. And they told him they would take it out of his ass. 😝

[@Arthezius]

@@trazyntheinfinite9895 that is one of my favorite scenes in that battle. That poor ship had 5 black guys standing behind that couch about to tear it up.

[@haloboy456]

@@trazyntheinfinite9895GUL WHOMEEEEEVER. 1 versuses Galaxy wings 9-1 and 9-3…..poor Gul 😂😂😂😂

[@3Rayfire]

@@trazyntheinfinite9895 14:01 They just decided, "You're going to have a bad day." We already know that a Galaxy or a Nebula vs two or three Galors isn't a fair fight. Two Galaxies with one waiting in the wings is just bullying.

[@burtonwilliams5355]

STAR FLEET: ''MESS WITH THE BEST, GO DOWN LIKE THE REST''. This message has been approved by The United Federation of Planets. (AND DON'T MESS WITH THE SISKO!)

[@MercenaryPen]

full credit to the best Trek as to offer, but in terms of writing Babylon 5 matches it every step of the way- particularly in the episodes Severed Dreams and No Surrender, No Retreat

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

There are episodes of DS9 that match B5s writing. But B5 has more.

[@JohnLRice]

Agreed! 👍 Although I think B5 had a wider range of writing, from absolutely fantastic all the way down to facepalm "what were they thinking", while DS9 had a narrower range, not quite as bad as the worst B5 moments but never as great as the greatest B5 moments?

[@MercenaryPen]

@@GiantFreakinRobot I was specifically referring to the writing of those battles rather than B5's writing more generally... and I think I'm justified considering that "severed dreams" in particular beat "first contact" in the running for a Hugo award

[@bemindful924]

@@MercenaryPen Out of curiosity and fairness I watched that battle and Im a bit flabbergasted on how you can suggest that this battle is the best B5 has to offer. The people were static, the visuals were poor but thats hardly important, the scope of the battle is narrow in contrast to DS9 battles where you see a greater angle of everything while also in more detail (the B5 fighters seem to flash in and out of the screen), the cannons look a bit tacky, and some of the battles reminded me of Return of the Jedi. I tried my best to be open minded, but I just can't see how it can compete.

[@EricRN1977]

@@bemindful924 It's not so much the battle, it's how it concludes "Delenn : SPOILER: [Delenn's fleet arrives after Earth Alliance attacks B5] Delenn : This is Ambassador Delenn of the Minbari. Babylon 5 is under our protection. Withdraw or be destroyed! Earth Force Officer : Negative! We have authority here. Do not force us to engage your ship. Delenn : Why not? Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari Fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else!"

[@benx6264]

the irony is that your #1 Star Trek pick is a Star Wars type battle. A great big huge free for all with fighters zipping around and capital ships slugging it out at point blank range. That's Star Wars. Single ship duels ala TOS's "Balance of Terror", the movie Star Trek II, the battle between the Shrike and the Titan in Picard season 3. Those are Star Trek type battles. To put it in Earth terms. the battle of Midway is Star Wars, Bismarck vs HMS Hood is Star Trek.

[@Michael-dy2lb]

I noticed that too. Wrath of Khan's two primary battles, the initial encounter and then the nebula, those rule all of Star Trek.

[@ianramage1593]

I must admit, I'm biased. I love Star Trek and have never been a huge fan of Star Wars. After the Mutara Nebula face-off, my favourite space battle is from DS9, the battle for Cardassia. It features Romulan, Federation and Klingon ships against the Dominion, the Breen and massive orbital weapons platforms. Star Trek at its best. Honourable mention to the final battle scene in Nemesis between the Enterprise, several Romulan warbirds and the Scimitar.

[@Xiuhtec]

B5 has some of the best in my opinion, especially with the recent remasters, but by no means are any of this video's examples slouches. I wish DS9 would get the remaster treatment TNG did, it would absolutely crush the competition if done as superbly.

[@HariSeldon913]

You completely overlooked Seth Trek: Orville - the Union and Krill against the Kaylon.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

If it was Trek it would have been top 4 for sure

[@johnharrison6745]

"Pie Eye Double-'S'" on Seth M.

[@Jacklangefeld]

That isn't Star Trek. It's a parody and non-canon.

[@frankreynolds445]

That battle to me redefined what a space battle supposed to be.

[@Karminion]

Thanks for sharing, I never got that far into DS9 - will go back and watch

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

You should, I really like it.

[@some_dawg]

I’m a teen who loves sci-fi, I’ve seen all of the TNG, voyager, ds9, and lower decks episodes. Star Trek my beloved

[@joepolymath2308]

I *really* liked this video. 👍👍 As intimately familiar with as I am with ST2, you still gave me some perspective and details that I hadn't considered before. For example, I never realized that, through all of the (non-remastered) TOS era, we had never seen an actual full-on space battle before. (That's a great nod to the original series cast, because the strength of the story was carried completely by great acting and well-written scripts.) The only thing that could have been added to this video would have been an "honorable mentions" section (which would actually make a nice follow-up video!). Some battles that could have been included: - The Klingon assault against DS9 -- both the space battle AND the interior battle on the station. Watching Sisko and Dax in personal combat using bat-leths is one of my all-time favorite DS9 scenes. - Remastered version of the final M5 attack from "The Ultimate Computer" - Battle of Wolf 359 from TNG, supplemented by footage from DS9 premiere. I realize there's not much actual "battle" shown here, but it's a great example of clever storytelling by showing the AFTERMATH of the battle, and the viewer has to fill in the details in his imagination.

[@kurtb8474]

Epic battles aren't what Star Trek was ever about. Nowadays it's all we see in Star Trek. It's getting hard to tell Trek and Star Wars apart.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

Not sure what Trek you are watching. There are basically no battles in Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks has like one a season.

[@tjmcguire9417]

If you can't tell the difference, go away.

[@CSXIV]

Few things I wanted to add: -That battle in “Wraith of Khan?” That was ILM doing the special effects, so the same people who did all the “Star Wars” battles made that one as well. -Gul Dukat baited Sisko into a trap, but Sisko KNEW it was a trap and proceeded anyway, because attempting to run the blockade was the best option they had. On that note, Dukat strikes me as the exact level of competent evil that would have figured Sisko would run the blockade even if he knew this was a trap, setting up a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t.” -Not sure this video is still up, but back in the early days of “KZbin,” someone posted an edited video of the battle of Chintoka from “Sacrifice of Angels,” set to the “Charging Fort Wagner” song from “Glory” (interesting choice considering the scene that song scores). It works shockingly well.

[@killingragethrowback]

I still feel like the Enterprise vs Scimitar battle needs to be on this list.

[@Stile4aly]

It's worth remembering that the reason DS9 switched over to CGI is because they saw what Babylon 5 was able to do with it. Episodes like Signs and Portents, The Long Twilight Struggle, Severed Dreams, Shadow Dancing, Into the Fire, No Surrender No Retreat, Between the Darkness and the Light, and Endgame stand toe to toe with the great battles from Star Trek, Star Wars, BSG, The Expanse, and other great franchises.

[@Marozi1]

The biggest problem with Star Wars battles are that despite the technology, they are no different than WWII dogfights, no locking on to a target, just randomly line up and shoot with lasers flying off in all directions lol, as fun as they are to watch, I always found that jarring compared to the more realistic depiction in Star Trek.

[@karlvongazenberg8398]

"The biggest problem with Star Wars battles are that despite the technology, they are no different than WWII dogfights," Whey parties can jam every sensor - as it was stated both in ep IV and ep VI - except your eye, you go back to good ole dakka. Besides, we have just seen the Defiant letting it rip with four guns, sorry, impulse phaser canons, walkingthe tracers, sorry, phaser blast over the target. Oh, targeting sensors were jammed? That must be unpleasant. By the way, ever played EVE Online in a 300+ fleet battle? Not much fun to watch as an outsider.

[@cursedmonkey1033]

Your videos are getting better and better. I was gripped all the way through. I can't fault your list but I personally love the end battle of ST 6, mainly because of Sulu's scene: "Faster, damn it, faster." "She'll fly apart if we go any faster." "Fly her apart, then!"

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

Thank you so much! I try to improve with every video

[@brsnow225]

The 001 battle you really miss spoke, the sovereign Enterprise E was just about the only Borg fighting purpose built ships in that fight, and even then, Picard taking control of the fleet, with Borg knowledge and giving lethal target coordinates

[@crazycappy01]

The MAIN difference between the shaft flight of the Death Star in 1983s "Return of The Jedi" and Season 3 of "Star Trek: Picard" with the Enterprise-D flying through the Borg Cube's shaft was, of course, CGI. When Return of The Jedi was being filmed in the early 1980s, CGI was practically in its infancy. And George Lucas's Industrial Light and Magic just had models to work with and NO CGI, YET!! And I'm a fan of BOTH Sci-Fi franchises.

[@timestealr2967]

You left out Voyager's return to earth. This was by far the greatest battle against the Borg where for the first time ever, this Star Ship had the upper hand with the Borg and the Borg couldn't prevail or defend against Voyager. Yeah, the Borg Queen was overplayed here, but still seeing the Borg get their as*** handed to them was a long time coming! One transphasic torpedo to completely destroy a Borg cube in one shot, then seeing the other Borg cube back off out of fear was awesome!!

[@EndPoliticalCorruption]

Yeah, but that's hardly a battle, then. It may have felt cathartic, even surprising, but it's not visually interesting or strategic, which I think is the basis on which the author here made his evaluation.

[@treyhelms5282]

Not much of a battle. And Janeway basically guaranteed the Borg would run wild in future events thanks to her exposing them to future technology.

[@davidryder3374]

The Reaver battle scene from Serenity puts every other space battle scene to shame.

[@tgs1766]

Opinions are fun!

[@lloydtransom8525]

That was a great video. I remember Sacrifice of Angels when it first aired...it still gives me a sense of dread even knowing what will happen.

[@maxek46]

Well-made video, but I was expecting some criticism or comparison with Star Wars battles - what are they lacking that Star Trek delivers?

[@Ithinkiwill66]

I remember, glued to the TV, Thanksgiving Day in Canada here, or sometime close to it, watching "The Way of the Warrior," I believe in 1995....and it was the most epic, well-awaited Trek battle ever! Then, "Sacrifice of Angels," and "What You Leave Behind" were the other epic battles.

[@TKDMaze92]

Dont forget, the Millenium Falcon was part of the battle in sector 001 aswell.

[@treyhelms5282]

And people think it was the Feds that blew up the Cube at Sector 001. SW Concussion missiles FTW!

[@kmoore02809]

I'm so glad you put Sacrifice of Angels on this list. This was Deep Space's equivalent to Game of Thrones 'Battle of the Bastards'. The only nitpick I have with it was the resolution of having the wormhole prophets wipe out the Dominion reinforcements. That could have been a borderline 'Deux ex Machina' in the hands of less capable writers.

[@Sorain1]

The way Star Trek Online handled that was great. Instead of wiping them out, make the transit take decades. So an entire Dominion reinforcement fleet primed for battle pops out into the otherwise peaceful region, chaos ensuing.

[@feralstorm]

Props to Ron Thornton & Foundation Imaging for doing great work on DS9 thru Enterprise, after all but creating modern CG space effects working Babylon 5.

[@roho10011]

Your intro had me concerned but you delivered. Great video; thank you.

[@seanharrigan6365]

Balance of Terror deserves a spot on this list. The battle was based on the movie The Enemy Below. This set the standard for tense space combat. Though not as flashy as the battles that came after, Balance of Terror set the standard.

[@0Zolrender0]

"First Contact" is my fav Star Trek Movie.

[@TheGitmoKid]

"Balance Of Terror" was the first space battle in the original Star Trek......

[@tomtom34b]

Is that the one where enterprise fight the romulan vessel? If so, YES!

[@docHOLLAday53]

“Sacrifice of Angels” was as epic as it gets! Although the end of ST2TWOK was great too. The music helped with that one a lot.

[@billdawson9471]

I remember Star Trek "Wrath of Kahn" when it was in theaters. It lasted for about 2 months, very rare in those days, plus it unseated Star Wars "Return of the Jedi", in popularity.

[@johnsmith4811]

The #1 pick here is, basically, Star Wars. Lots of flash and bang with no feeling of intensity. Just made to overwhelm the visual senses as "eye candy" - SW style. Kirk v. Khan battle is definitely #1.

[@haloboy456]

The defiant going 1 v 2700 at the end in the wormhole was wild Sisko was Finna crash out.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

Oh, good one!

[@1958PonyBoy]

I was epically disappointed when the Enterprise arrives too late for the battle of Wolf 359. I wanted to see a fleet battle for once. But they more than made up for it in seasons 6 and 7 of DS9. Hundreds of ships of multiple designs from several different races engaging in combat. Now, THAT"S a space battle.

[@ronaldjeffrey8712]

The DS9 battle makes absolutely no sense at all given the fact that star fleet weapons have effective ranges in the hunderds if not thousands of kilometers it's ridiculous to have the ships clustered that close together. One warp core breach would result in a cascade effect that would take out the entire fleet. It may look flashy on screen but it is totally impractical.

[@AlexanderAddams]

"Target the Revers! SOmeBODy Fire!" - The Agent, when facing down Capt Mal's "Ain't Gonna See This Coming" battle technique. In 3 minutes you go from giddy to holding your breath. Serenity giving us a battle of Small but Mighty vs and Empire, that's always going to hold #1 spot for me. The Expanse holds a tight 2nd in my heart. Beratnas know how to handle physics in a real battle if it happened in, say, 20 years from now.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

Thats really cool, thoes are great battles and really fun to watch.

[@ricogoldstar]

I loved every bit of the Dominion Saga! Yes, it's one of the most awesome TV Space Battle scenes ever. ❤

[@JAGtheTrekkieGEMINI1701]

Wrath of Kahn and DS9 Big Battle scene are INDEED the best Pics for such a Space Battle List

[@EndPoliticalCorruption]

Good essay. I would have liked an explanation, since you open the discussion noting it, of how Star Wars was able to make large and dynamic space battles long before Star Trek. Obviously they had the budget, being movies compared to weekly TV, but what was their technique?

[@julius-stark]

I know a lot of people hated Nemesis, but that 30 minute battle at the end of the movie was pretty great. Picard ramming the Scimitar was such a ballsy movie for Star Trek.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

yeah, someone else recommended that one, it was pretty good. It should have at least got a shout out or something.

[@climhazzard115]

DS9 might have had the coolest space battles, but I wouldn't call them the best by a long shot. They really fail to take into account the size and volume of space. Ships are literally ramming into each other due to a lack of room to maneuver...? The worst part is that that became the norm for all Star Trek battles going forward after DS9.

[@kamaeq]

The TOS episode introducing the Romulans was a great one, lifted from a WW2 destroyer vs submarine duel. It also shows how limited budget and tech could be overcome by good acting and writing.

[@tuchehstone]

I wholeheartedly agree with this list. Star Trek brings you in and gives you the stakes before the battle takes place and allows you to experience the triumph of victory or desolation of losing.

[@chaost4544]

Something you said in the video is why these battles are great. There's a level of the battles being earned. The massive fleet assembled in Operation Return is fully earned and built up. In comparison with the ship spam in "Rise of Skywalker", it's not close to what battle is better.

[@mijimonmaster]

The main thing that bugs me about space battle is they're designed around air battles in an atmosphere and gravity. Aircraft that need forward motion to keep airborne. Space doesn't need this, so no continuous forward motion is needed. A spacecraft could go in any direction at any time, but we still base it around aircraft. Maybe that's why the usual UFO sightings are of saucers. They could move in any direction at any time.

[@brodriguez11000]

Mass is still going to be an issue in space.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

This is not true of battles in Babylon 5, The Expanse, and Battlestar Galactica. They actually use real, Newtonian space physics. Star Trek makes SOME effort to do that too, but doesn't try that hard. And Star Wars is exactly what you describe.

[@asdfjoe123]

Miji, you need to get away from Star Wars and Star Trek . . . because it appears your complaint is based on the laziness of those two franchises. See Battlestar Galactica (the reboot), Babylon 5, The Expanse, etc.

[@mijimonmaster]

@@brodriguez11000 Only with the technology we have at this time.

[@mijimonmaster]

@@GiantFreakinRobot Not the original battlestar though. And that's only 3 who've made an effort. Just think how many other movies and tv series do this exact same thing of mimiking aircraft.

[@MustangsbyMatt]

Star Trek First Contact, Opening Log “Captain’s Log, Stardate 50893.5: The moment I have dreaded for nearly six years has finally arrived. The Borg, our most lethal enemy, have begun an invasion of the Federation and this time there may be no stopping them.” Riker: “How many ships?” Picard: “One.” Me, every time I watch this movie: ONE?!

[@treyhelms5282]

The Borg were farming the Federation for XP. Well, technological innovations, but you know what I mean.

[@karlvongazenberg8398]

A honorable mention to Space 2063: Above and Beyond.

[@bemindful924]

That show had good moments, liked it, but it didn't stick unfortunately. It had a sense of grimness that other shows were lacking.

[@MrAbbas16]

Stargate should be in the running too

[@baystated]

Poor Helmsman Ben, I hope he didn't get assimilated when Defiant survivors went back to 2063 in the Enterprise E.

[@mikesilva3868]

Great video 😊

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

Thank you so much.

[@ShootBlueHelmets]

I stopped What We Left Behind because it was sappy and, yes, emotional. Now that I have seen that remastered glimpse, I must watch it.

[@Siranyt]

As far as I remember, 3x22 - Explorers was the first DS9 episode to use CGI for starships (the Bajoran lightship). They made a pretty big deal about it back then. Season 4 and later saw the wider adoption of CGI after the successfull use in Explorers.

[@damianalvarado1320]

I would have also put the Battle for Space dock Picard Season 3. StarTrek had never showed Spacedock in battle and that fact that the borg where trying to destroy it, it was holding its own against the entire Federation Fleet . That was an epic battle.

[@SirBasilBarfly]

What about Star Trek Nemesis? The Battle in the Bassen Rift was a conflict fought in 2379 between the Sovereign-class USS Enterprise-E, assisted by two Valdore-type warbirds of the Romulan Empire against the Scimitar. Brilliant battle sequence.

[@hobbz7126]

Great video... I wasn't too keen on the Battle of Jupiter, but being a list of the most epic Trek battles, I agree that it belongs on the list.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

It’s just too big and crazy to leave out. I had some hesitation myself

[@ReconViper1]

I'm a fan of the classic versions of both. So I can't say much about Star Wars after Disney, or Star Trek after the original crew. But, at least in the original versions, Star Wars is world war II in space (As is the original Galactica). Star Trek is the Napoleonic wars in space. In fact the character of Kirk was inspired by Horatio Hornblower. Although there is one exception. In the TOS episode, "Balance of Terror" it's more like a surface warship vs. an enemy submarine. A lot inspiration was taken from the movie, "The Enemy Below."

[@nicholasklangos9704]

I wish they would remaster the last 2 or 3 seasons or at least the big battle episodes of DS9 they deserve the love!! Do a special box set fans would buy it!!

[@Timmaaaigh]

I think this needs to be kind of differentiated, whether its ship to ship, or fleet to fleet combat. In the first category, Wrath of Khan is indeed on the top, and Nemesis Scimitar battle was fairly good as well - even if the movie as whole was not exactly great. Fleet to fleet, its indeed Sacrifice of Angels at the top, but i would then rate Babylon 5s Into the Fire or Severed Dreams battles as comparables, on top of everything else. Then perhaps comes StarWars, BSG battles and few other things into equation. Nice video, anyway.

[@VkmSpouge]

I completely agree with the top 2 Star Trek battles, the Battle of the Mutara Nebula and Operation Return are great sci-fi battles and show just how good Star Trek can be at both small scale and grand scale battles. From the Star Wars end I think the Battle of Endor and the Battle of Scarif are the best. Both have got a large variety of ships, starfighters and ground combat and have essentially a full story with each side reacting to each other's moves.

[@GiantFreakinRobot]

Thanks for your comment. Battle of Endor was really cool. I have a soft spot for the ewoks . Personally, I felt that with Endor, they didn't have enough ships.

[@deadmeat8754]

DS9 and The Dominion War arc ftw!!! 💪😉👍

[@Earwaxfire909]

Original Star Trek stories were about discovery, hopes and dreams. Their best stories were dramas that explored how we could create a productive society where everyone could develop control of their own destiny. Battles were simply a means to create tension, develop the characters, and test those ideals. But, it is hard to create a successful space battle scene without compromise. Tight clusters of randomly weaving ships, traveling faster than light, firing even faster than light based weapons never made sense.

[@michaellawrence6602]

There are people who watch Star Wars and there are those who are wrong...

[@JB-mk3ow]

The battle in Sacrifice of Angels had impressive scale, especially for a TV episode, but they did seem to forget that the ships were meant to have shields.

[@datatronx]

A shame the Battle of Camp Khitomer wasn't here but I agree that DS9 made the top spot. I always remember the onboard chase camera as Defiant pulls a high speed loop to absolutely maul a Jem'Hadar attack ship

[@UltraZell]

How is the battle against the Borg and Species 8472 not mentioned. To actually see another race that can man handle the Borg was something. And the cliffhanger… to blow up a planet just to kill the Borg and 2 Cubes as they were trying to escape! That sends chills down my spine.

[@AvroBellow]

CGI quality aside, I still think that Babylon 5's final battle in the Shadow War was the greatest space battle in sci-fi history.

[@nuclearsimian3281]

I gotta disagree with #2. Leaving out the battle where Picard just flatly outmaneuvers his opposition in the battle between himself, Tomalok, and the flagship class of both his fleet and the Romulan fleet standing off against each other, with the battle ending before it really began, due simply to mutually assured destruction. Like you said, the Borg cube and the Death star are really similar, but what sets Trek apart is the fact that Trek has the kind of battles that SW can't have, and can't really get away with portraying, like two commanders, so equally matched that to come to blows would result in guaranteed death for both sides. That never happens in SW.

[@bremer1701]

3:33 picard was such a shit show that no fan service space battle can save it. especially not one as silly as this.

[@nunterz]

Yeah the first season was so disappointing I completely skipped S2. I returned for S3, it was meh but at least the "fan service" (oh how much I hate that phrase) part was made with love.