The 5-Question Test if the “New Chopin Waltz" is Fake

[@philiprostek]

Mr. Walker knows his stuff - his 5 points probe both specific details and general observations. He qualifies everything he says in an informational way - as do all historians who merit attention.

[@militaryandemergencyservic3286]

I also merit attention

[@butwhatwouldiknow]

He also knows how to pronounce the name. I cringe every time I hear ‘Show Pan’. Plenty of people have posted clips on how to say it!

[@georgtrakl8319]

он - бездарь, и к музыке не имеет отношения, это вальс Шопена.

[@RashadSaleh92]

The entire method is of the form: Is it similar or different to the rest of Chopin’s work? What he says is full of things like “I can’t think of any Chopin waltz that repeats its introduction…”, etc. He implies that this is the “musical” way to do it, rather than the “scientific” way of doing it. Now it is of course important to compare the music to Chopin’s known works, but in principle no matter how much different it is from the rest of Chopin’s work, you cannot use that to counter the scientific evidence. Why? Simply because Chopin could have written something say in the complete opposite style of his own as part of showing someone like a student or a friend exactly how not to compose. His handwriting, his composition, and exactly, decidedly not his style. In other words, by over-simplifying the issue to “if it’s by Chopin then it must sound like Chopin” (which it does btw, if you listen to the piece instead of this man), this man purports to know or be able to know more than he can, then uses it to undermine what he actually can know, namely the scientific evidence.

[@SSB-im9mn]

@@militaryandemergencyservic3286 Ok then. Hello there! ☺

[@KR-mm4el]

the way this year's going, i wouldn't be surprised if new beethoven drops sometime before christmas

[@shubus]

Prof Walker raises some very interesting points. Time will tell if he's right. I always appreciate dissenting views as he gives me something to think about.

[@Klavieralter]

When I first heard the piece I was reminded of a Mazurka. There is a more brooding quality in the piece. Prof.Walker has brought up fantastic questions. I am looking forward to future analysis.

[@tekraynak]

Agreed. Definitely thought it was a Mazurka from the rhythm and character. Very odd that "valse" is at the top of the page.

[@henrygaida7048]

My personal opinion/educated guess is that it's probably an untitled sketch by Chopin, probably for a Mazurka, and was never intended, being a sketch, for public consumption. The notations "Valse", in pencil, and "Chopin", in a different ink and in a different hand, are later than the composition itself.

[@dwdei8815]

I've heard lots of people saying they "knew" on hearing the first notes. Having tried to do Chopin pastiches in the past, I'm afraid it's rather easy to make an adequately Chopinesque start. What really convinced me was that, having heard even this fragment to the end, it left the same peculiar, rare and delicious sensation that a recognised Chopin piece does. Sorry it's not a CSI-level piece of evidence. (Edit): PS Love those five questions. Very precise and pointed. I had no idea about, say, the hinky fingering and the overall structure. If I've been had, so be it.

[@benlawdy]

@@dwdei8815 the forthcoming segments with Rink and & Kallberg offer some pretty good answers to Walker’s questions. So don’t go back on your hunch just yet.

[@georgtrakl8319]

c'est une pièce (inachevée) de Chopin, je vous dit cela en tant que musicien professionnel.

[@GarboFlow]

when I heard the piece for the first time, it sounded to me as a piece not made by Chopin. The intuitions and first impressions can be scattered all around.

[@georgtrakl8319]

@@GarboFlow c'est Chopin à 100 %.

[@georgtrakl8319]

@@GarboFlow ваша интуиция вас подвела

[@minkyukim0204]

Dr. Walker’s books on composers are intriguing, but his insights into music could be more profound. (Same with Liszt’s works) 1. Dr. Walker appears to be correct on this point. But see 6. 2. In the B minor waltz, the fz note is present on several third beats. Notably, this piece commences with an accent on the third beat. 3. Yes, in Op. 34 No. 3. 4. The fingerings may have been intended as groups of series of two beats. While they are unconventional, they are indeed feasible. Not sure why Dr. Walker continues to whether Chopin ever corrected his fingerings, but you can find several examples in pupils’ copies where Chopin himself corrected fingerings. 5. Chopin’s first waltz in e major, as Dr. Walker observed, literally repeats its introduction. The first published waltz, Op. 18, also repeats the introduction, albeit with some modifications. Dr. Walker appears to have overlooked this. Additionally, the renowned waltz in D flat, Op. 64 No. 1, also repeats the brief introduction. If one follows the variations in Dubois’ copy, the introduction even becomes identical to the repeated one. Fontana’s handwriting is now easily distinguishable. Dr. Walker disregards contemporary scholarship. The most noticeable difference lies in the notated noteheads. 6. Dr. Walker’s reasoning primarily revolves around the question of whether an element can be found in other waltzes. However, can you name a waltz that presents the first theme with the left hand other than Op. 34 No. 2? I find his questions even more peculiar than the new Chopin work.

[@benlawdy]

@@minkyukim0204 thanks for this thoughtful/reasoned reply. I agree with you, and most of your points are raised in the forthcoming interviews with Rink and Kallberg. I’d very curious about Alan Walker’s reaction to these points, especially the main one you make in #6. The fact that Chopin’s style is paradoxically characterized by unique/singular moments in each piece makes me wonder how it is even possible to determine previously unknown singular moment as belonging to Chopin (besides the fact that it’s in his hand!). What is “Chopinesque” about Chopin’s unique moments?

[@benlawdy]

@@minkyukim0204 also, the answer to question #3 that I though of is from the coda to Op. 18

[@stoferb876]

I still think it's pretty obvious this isn't a waltz. It was pretty obvious to me from first hearing it that this wasn't a waltz but some unfinished start of some intended grander piece that was never finished. There is a reason Chopin never had it published. About the fingering for sure you can use this fingering, IMHO it's awkward here mainly because it's in combination with fortissimo. Going from 4,5 -> 2 may be a more smooth fingering than it first appears, but it's really not appropriate if you want to play it loudly and forcefully then 3,5 -> 1 gives you much greater strength and loudness naturally.

[@andre.vaz.pereira]

Also E Major Waltz op. Posth. repeats intruduction wich is Chopin's first waltz in chronological order.

[@w3sp]

8:32 I'd like to add that those exact kind of repeated cluster chords - while not in another valse - also appear in Chopin's Tarantella op.43 (composed 1841) just after the middle section. They may not be very Chopinesque in a valse setting but he certainly did use those exact chord structure years later.

[@PieInTheSky9]

I've heard a lot of Chopin imitations and none of them quite get it right. This however gives me that distinct feeling I get when listening to a Chopin piece, the voicings and textures are so distinct to chopin, I really don't have any doubt in my mind this was written by him.

[@melefth]

Entirely agree. If I'd heard it blind, I'd have instantly assumed it was M. C's work.

[@JoeLinux2000]

There may be 5 little details that suggest that it is not composed by Chopin, but there is much more evidence that it was; most of which is that Chopin was a very creative individual who did not tend to repeat himself musically. The best description in this video may be the claim that it was a discarded shaving from the composer's work bench. However. I find the short piece to be very compelling from a musical point of view.

[@moriscengic]

​@@JoeLinux2000 true

[@georgtrakl8319]

je suis un musicien professionnel, et je peux confirmer à 100% que c'set une pièce inachevée de Chopin. Analyse musical est mon coté fort et je peut vous assurer que ce que dit ce monsieur dans la vidéo ceux ne sont pas des vrais arguments .

[@melefth]

"Bereft of any musical significance"... harsh! The piece is more a Mazurka than a Waltz, and both genres contain a lot of pleasant-if-not-earth-shattering pieces: Chopin didn't only write 'important' pieces--he wrote a lot of whimsical delights, too--like this.

[@nigelhaywood9753]

Yes, as soon as I heard that typical expert's cliché, I was on the alert. The leading experts so often milk the opportunity for attention by being the opposing voice. Any way, it might not have been a piece that Chopin chose to guard for posterity, unlike his wonderful Ballades, Préludes etc. but that doesn't mean that it can't be an authentic doodle of his.

[@jacobladder5556]

Spoken by a man who wishes he had musical significance, no doubt

[@melefth]

@@jacobladder5556 To be fair, I'm sure the professor was asked to play devil's advocate - he admits as much towards the end. :)

[@dylanzwering2255]

"Not everyday that 19th century composers make 21 century headlines." *Mozart proceeds to publish from the 18th century grave the same year*

[@benlawdy]

@@dylanzwering2255 a pretty remarkable coincidence!

[@3r7s]

this is more exciting than an episode of Murder She Wrote.. love these videos, Ben (and team)! 👍✌

[@AldoGaspari.]

Chopin had to drop a new piece after Mozart did

[@SJ-oi7tk]

I had to play the video four times in a row to really get it, but now I'm totally convinced that Alan Walker didn't write this waltz.

[@Chopin-Etudes-Cosplay]

That's too many "firsts" in one waltz. Alan Walker has me convinced! Now I wait for the next videos which will surely convince me back.

[@DismasZelenka]

Whoever the composer, it is good to hear Tomasz Ritter playing it very convincingly on Chopin's Pleyel. More historic pianos, please!

[@bsmusicd]

@@DismasZelenka Agreed! Fabulous performance.

[@nintendianajones64]

Alan Walker has convinced me beyond on a shadow of a doubt the New York Waltz was absolutely written by Chopin.

[@SJ-oi7tk]

it would be funny if it turned out that this was the ONLY thing Chopin wrote and that everything else ever attributed to Chopin was actually written by his sister, Ludwika Jędrzejewicz

[@georgtrakl8319]

@@SJ-oi7tk не смешно

[@georgtrakl8319]

c'est une valse de Chopin, je peux le prouver en tant que musicien professionnel.

[@robinthomsoncomposer]

Alan Walker has convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt the New York Waltz was absolutely not written by Chopin

[@georgtrakl8319]

@@robinthomsoncomposer не стоит слушать профессионально непригодных "специалистов".

[@arubaga]

Life of Chopin was too short. A nice Chopin type etude at that.

[@S.Lijmerd]

I'm a pianist. I must disagree with Prof. Walker on his 4th question, the fingering. The 5/4-2 fingering makes way more sense, and "feels" more right then 5/3-1. It is what I initially played intuitively on sight read, not reading the fingerings. I find other fingerings more clumsy, you have a certain momentum going downwards that gets kind of lost with other fingerings.

[@benlawdy]

@@S.Lijmerd agreed. I also like 53-2, weirdly, but every hand is different. 53-1 is good only if I want to emphasize the “dirty” lower note (which is fun to do on the repeat)

[@RobinLSL]

Also agreed, I like the 5/4-2! Plus, Chopin often wrote weird fingerings in his music anyway.

[@integer9590]

@@RobinLSL So true. I have beefs with his fingerings on his Barcarolle.

[@cadriver2570]

Walker makes excellent points. I wonder why he wasn’t consulted. Real or not, how would you feel if this were placed next to the other waltzes, mazurkas, etc.?

[@JoeLinux2000]

People feel it's more in the character of a mazurka or perhaps a cross between the two. Putting it alongside the other compositions makes no difference at all. It's just another fragment from Chopin's wonderfully creative mind. A more interesting controversy is the reason that George Sand (Amantine Lucile Aurore Dupin de Francueil) ended her relationship with Frederick.

[@georgtrakl8319]

Нормально почувствовали бы, просто это незаконченное произведение

[@the_manchovie1795]

I was always convinced this was a Mazurka rather than a waltz, despite the title

[@JoeLinux2000]

Walker claims the word "Waltz" was written onto the score by someone other than Chopin himself. Fontana perhaps?

[@jayhu2296]

wow didn't know Alan Walker had such eclectic tastes ranging from EDM to classical music

[@모니카K]

음악적으로나, 음악사 면에서 흥미있는 영상입니다. 언제나 감사드립니다.

[@Ainglish-qj5bb]

I'm convinced. It seems to me now that Chopin probably did not write this piece. HOWEVER, I don't care-- I still like it, and I think someone had a good enough ear and feel for Chopin to write a creditable piece at all.

[@Whatismusic123]

so strange to look at specific novel ideas and go "has this been done before by chopin" as if chopin can't think of anything new

[@Whatismusic123]

also the FFF section fingering feels very natural to me, it just looks clumsy when you first LOOK at it

[@sneddypie]

every composer has their own tendencies. chopin had a tendency to compose waltzes a certain way, likely for the simple reason that he liked it that way and preferred to structure his waltzes that way. using this information, it is reasonable to cross-reference across the many waltzes that he wrote (37 waltzes and this is the only time he does certain things?). professor walker isn't just going "yeah he didn't do that before so it must be fake", he's going "chopin had a severe tendency to do such and such as opposed to such and such, especially in the waltzes he wrote". yes it's all speculation of course, but we'd be fools not to understand that the speculation does come from a logic of understanding patterns. at least 90% of the history we learn is speculation, but its not just randomly saying "the french revolted against the monarchy in the 1790's, the russian revolution ended up with communism, so there must have been a lot of communists in france", it's more like saying "haiti was a french colony, therefore their leaders must have taken inspiration from the french revolution while revolting against france themselves due to significant communication and influence from france." of course its not concrete, but its to get you thinking. i myself had doubts because it didn't feel like anything chopin had written before, and this video allows for others to see my point of view. if you feel so compelled to do so, feel free to make a video explaining why you believe chopin did in fact write this waltz (a disagreement needs reasoning from both sides after all, right?). hope this helps

[@sfd373]

How fantastic to have such precise and even-handed analysis from someone with such a vast knowledge of his subject. I’m not a person who believes all opinions are equal, and it’s fascinating to see what goes through the mind of an expert who is presented with something like this. As a complete amateur, I was surprised to hear him say it had such little musical value… for me it has a fantastic strangeness to it; a certain wildness. It feels closer to a mazurka somehow. It would be interesting to know if the professor’s queries about fff and third-beat stresses were also applicable to the mazurkas. As someone who knows little of Chopin’s working practice, the following are some of the things I would love to know… Do we have any other examples of these little postcards from him? How did he sketch his ideas? Were they always at the piano? Or could he be inspired at dinner and quickly scrawl something out on a napkin? What was his process of work moving from sketch to published piece? Does this fragment fit it into what we know of that? Do we know if he ever wrote little things as gifts? (In which case, perhaps they could be less perfect, or break some rules). Was he a composer who destroyed all his notebooks and sketches? If so, how did this slip through the net, and if he wasn’t… shouldn’t there be more material like this? Did he write any other little pieces which sort of fell between categories?

[@benlawdy]

@@sfd373 you’ll be very interested in Rink and Kallberg’s segments, because they address many of your questions. Chopin certainly did write other postcard-sized musical gifts, which they discuss at some length. Their analysis of the music has made me find more depth in the piece than I does thought, although I agree with you - from the beginning I was taken by the exoticism. Professor Walker is playing the role of devil’s advocate here, as any good scholar does when something like this is first discovered!

[@sfd373]

@@benlawdy looking forward to them! Ah, so is that not his genuine opinion of the piece’s quality then? Is he taking a strong hypothetical position that encourages us to defend the piece with the same rigour he uses?

[@benlawdy]

@@sfd373 I think he’s both the devil’s advocate and “the devil” on most of his points. He doesn’t think much of the music, but maybe Kallberg’s analysis will make him see more in it. He’s more hypothetical in suggesting Fontana may have written it down. In that case what he’s insisting on is that we make sure to rule out all possible alternatives, and he doesn’t feel enough attention has been paid to some.

[@bw2082]

I think Alan Walker is right. I was immediately skeptical upon first hearing it.

[@georgtrakl8319]

для не-музыканта ваш скептицизм простителен, но музыканту - нет.

[@pjbpiano]

You cannot really be skeptical. Anyone who says they were is assuming to know all possible musical idea Chopin had.

[@georgtrakl8319]

@@pjbpiano этот вальс находится полностью в стиле Шопена, но при этом имеет свои необычные детали, и он очевидно недоработан и незавершен, это всего лишь первая страница, и Шопен даже нюансы не расставил как следует, потому что это только набросок.

[@ericwarncke]

I think most of these 5 points could be explained away very simply: 1. Chopin wanted to do something different with the dynamics and accents. 2. He was tired when he added the wrong beam and ended up with the wrong number of beats in one measure. 3. He just liked this intro and needed to hear it again.

[@JoeLinux2000]

It's obviously not a complete composition. However the full repeat adds more contrast. To just repeat the "waltz" section would be rather dull and less in the character of Chopin. The problem is scholars like Walker like to put themselves in the spotlight. The issue of the authorship will never be resolved. It's similar to the Shakespeare authorship question which is kept alive by competing sides.

[@virtuosafatale]

It's a triad, not a minor third, it seems after close examination. So it's 1/4/5 and then 2.

[@goldennuggets75]

It may be as much like a mazurka as a waltz but it immediately feels like early Chopin. It has the harmonies, part writing, elegance, lyricism, keyboard textures of other early pieces, in particular the stubbornness, barely suppressed controlled anger, motovic connections and dissonances remind me of the 1st Scherzo and E flat minor poloniase op 26 no.2. Frankly I'm not bothered about listening to the arguments, any musician who knows Chopin's output well should have enough information to form an opinion.

[@shilloshillos]

Dr. Walker is a scholar to be taken seriously. His biographies of Liszt, Chopin and Von Bulow are truly the children of time more so than authority. Therefore, we listen carefully and wait .

[@ultimateredstone]

Interesting video. Some counterpoints: I think the fff, sforzandi and repeat of the introduction can all be explained by the fact that this is not a fully fledged waltz, but a short piece (maybe a little gift, as some have speculated) with which Chopin was having some fun and was maybe being intentionally melodramatic. I can't comment too much on the physical feel as I haven't played enough Chopin for that, but isn't Chopin known for strange fingerings, not just because of the intended legato but because he associated a different type of sound with each finger+key combination? The sixteenth triplet is a pretty normal mistake, not one only a "beginner" would make. That stuff happens when you're writing your ideas down quickly. He may have had a semiquaver triplet idea in mind, went for the eighth triplet instead but accidentally notated the sixteenths. As for the overall sound, there's no doubt this is Chopin-esque music. There are many details which belong only to Chopin's style. Almost every Chopin piece has something special about it, which is why he's so great. This may not be Chopin's best work, but is in my opinion of sufficient quality that only a very talented composer who had a deep understanding of Chopin's music could have written it, if it wasn't Chopin himself. Makes perfect sense to me that this is a little piece written by Chopin, which he didn't take so seriously himself.

[@adamrainis90]

I’m of the opinion this was likely an experiment he was working on and decided he didn’t care for it and discarded. He wasn’t always fond of his own works (I.e. fantasie-impromptu), or he could have co-written this with a student? I find it highly hubris of Mr. Walker to make such assertions based on known works, as if it the possibility of a short piece like this would just have never came to be… he has some valid points of course, but I wouldn’t ever assume you know something about anyone from nearly two centuries ago regardless of how much you’ve studied about them.

[@PianistDanielFritzen]

very well elaborated. I don't agree with the fingering being awkward. It is typical for both Chopin and Liszt to avoid the strong fingers in order to be more pliable and souple. But the triple forte doesn't seem to be emotionally motivated that early in the piece.

[@benlawdy]

@@PianistDanielFritzen I agree and rather like 54-2, and my hand isn’t as pliable as Chopin’s.

[@PianistDanielFritzen]

@@benlawdy Thanks for replying! Mine neither. 😂Isn't that partly due to our modern instruments which tend to stiffen our muscles more than Chopin's? When I played on a piano of Chopin's time, it was a revelation to me how easily my hands relaxed. One more point: Do you feel the triple fff makes sense COMBINED with the 54-2 fingering? Would Chopin have advised that? Isn't this the sign of a less experienced pianist at work?

[@benlawdy]

@@PianistDanielFritzen I no longer think the FFF is that strange. Yes we don’t find that marking early in any other Chopin piece, but evidence suggests this might have been composed in the early 1830s, possibly when Chopin was in Vienna, and he was experimenting more with composition (we see many PPP in the early nocturnes, and FFF in several etudes, that date from the same period). He was also going through a lot emotionally and psychologically, and given that this seems to have been a gift, perhaps it was intended to relate to or express a kind of outcry of the kind that we find in the 1st scherzo for example. Perhaps it was easier to produce a FFF effect on Chopin’s piano, but also maybe he wrote that fingering in precisely because he was recording what worked best for him in achieving that sonority after that jump.

[@PianistDanielFritzen]

@@benlawdy Right, that makes sense. And in the 2nd Ballade, we have no choice but use 5-4 on all these thirds at the beginnings of each descending cascade in ff. So he did use 5-4 in fortissimo.

[@benlawdy]

@ for sure, and those 2nd ballade passages you mention + especially the comparable part in the coda are probably the closest passagework to the figuration in the waltz. Also, 5-4 is not weak if you’ve developed the kind of technique Chopin asks us to (in the Etudes and in his method).

[@sgut1947]

Walker's points about (i) the accents on the 3rd beat, and (ii) the repetition of the intro, give a bit of weight to the idea that it's really a mazurka, I think.

The "Chopin" at the top is not the author, it's the TITLE. The piece is composed by Fontana in an homage to Chopin, as did Schumann. ?

[@benlawdy]

I love that as an idea but it seems a bit far-fetched

@@benlawdy yes. hence the "?" 🤓

[@christophedevos3760]

Not a bad idea, somebody who wrote a pastiche. And actually, one peculiar composer has done this before: Schumann in Carnaval, the section entitled 'Chopin'.😊

[@moriscengic]

I 've never heard any pastiche which would make me believe it was Chopin. No way. This is no pastiche.

[@gruenewolke]

How do you know?

[@mhermarckarakouzian8899]

Oufff. Awesome video! Is it just me, or has Chopin also never written a waltz this short. If so, why can’t we just conclude this was a sketch or an impromptu thing he did (in like 30 minutes or so) for a friend. This is what I believe.

[@benlawdy]

@@mhermarckarakouzian8899 it was probably a gift - albeit an unfinished one (since unsigned). He wrote other pieces on “presentation manuscripts” like this that were similarly short and undeveloped.

[@benlawdy]

The forthcoming interviews with Rink and Kallberg go into this more.

[@georgtrakl8319]

совершенно верно, это незаконченный вальс. Это очевидно, а всё что болтает этот "профессор" - ерунда.

[@kristjanlaats3342]

@@benlawdy I think it was by Chopin as well and I think he would find us stupid for over-analyzing this, which he probably just considered a small throwaway snippet. It is fun and interesting though :D

[@rosiefay7283]

One clue that Chopin intended the piece to continue beyond the MS is that the bar line at the end is a mixture of "end of repeated section" and "start of repeated section", suggesting that a further repeated section would follow.

[@BsktImp]

It was written by Rosemary Brown lol

[@kaspianocz6330]

😂😂😂

[@MarxistischerMillionaer]

Lol :D Didn’t know who she was….so I read her Wikipedia article. 😂that’s funny af

[@BsktImp]

@@MarxistischerMillionaer Hers and the Joyce Hatto / William Barrington-Coupe bizarre stories are two that have stuck firmly in my mind from when I was kid.

[@SSB-im9mn]

For what it's worth - not much! - it feels like Chopin to me.

[@SophiaLambton-hb4it]

Thank you for gathering this remarkable insight, Ben!

[@DanielGregorio]

Thank you for this amazing videos. Another thing that i pointed out in a video on my channel is that i can't believe that someone that is also a composer, (because i read that McClellan, the curator that found it, is a composer) was so eager to publish this that he didn't wait for an opinion or a collaboration with the Chopin institute. Even the fact that they went with Lang Lang to be the first to play it is kind of suspicious to me, i don't have anything against him as a pianist but it just doesn't seem like they cared much about being rigorous with all of this, i would have expected a specialist in Chopin to be the first to play it. And i'm not a fan of the things that he said to some of the media either, like this: "I feel about 98% sure, and many people who have heard it already feel in their gut this sounds like Chopin." -- Taken from a BBC article I mean, i get the excitement, but i think if you really care about music, you are not going to say things like that, gut is not evidence of anything at all. Being a composer he should know that it is relatively easy to write something in Chopin's style, there are a lot of examples of that here in YT.

[@AS-bl5qy]

Saludos Daniel, también sigo tu canal y vi tu video al respecto.

[@DanielGregorio]

@@AS-bl5qy Saludos! Y gracias por seguir el canal :)

[@joshuacarlisle9901]

Am I the only one who doesn’t find the fingering marking in Q4 weird? Would be much weirder using thumb on black keys descending imo

[@shawnwilker2755]

When I play this, I use my thumb there. It is far more comfortable for me.

[@gianlucabersanetti6454]

5:54 Exactly!

[@joshuapettus6973]

A lot of these experts scream to me "burden of too much knowledge" and Mr Walker clearly is in that category. When the simplest answer, given the evidence, is that it is. Obviously Chopin never intended it to be a published work. It's clearly not refined, fully developed, or the engraving made for others to look at. So for him to say "Bereft of any musical significance" really sets me on edge. Sure Chopin didn't use fff very often in a published work, but being unrefined surely can be a characteristic of a sketch? Can we not agree that a sketch from Chopin can be just as fascinating as as a published work? To put it another way, composer Chopin, the man who was known for improvisation, flourishes and music-of-the-moment, is not the same as editor Chopin who was meticulous about everything he did. I don't think this sketch met editor Chopin and I think it's interesting because of that.

[@Dizzyfingers2]

Publilius Syrus said: "Even a single hair casts a shadow." (LATIN: Etiam capillus unus habet umbram) Goethe wrote: "Where there is much light, the shadow is deep" (There is strong shadow where there is much light)

[@johnnyp6202]

I am not a music historian just a fan of Chopin and classical piano music that has picked up some tidbits that I think might apply here. There is a story about Beethoven that he attended some event and played a new improvisational piece. A little while later Beethoven attended a different event and someone was at the other one asked him if he could play something like the one he improvised before, and he played the piece exactly as it was by memory. Now maybe he had prepared pieces that he never published and passed off as improvised by the point is that he played new unknown improvised Beethoven. I have also read that Schubert would play hours of completely improvised Waltzes that likely only existed in that moment of time. Chopin was known to be super improvisational and thent later try and write down what he had improvised. And as the second Nocturne shows he wasn't even opposed to adding improvisations to works that were already famous and known. So like Schubert and Beethoven and probably every other composer there are likely thousands of pieces of music by them improvised on the spot that only existed for that small period of time. I find it hard to believe that if you roped Chopin into playing piano at some social gathering that he would just cycle through his famous works like a concert. I think he would just play whatever came to his mind at the time. Maybe some of that led to real works down the line maybe some didn't To me the fact that this piece is very "different" than "typical"" Chopin in some ways sort of makes it more likely that it is Chopin. I just imagine it as something he improvised and thought maybe needed more work or intended as a gift and realizing it was different jotted it down. I mean it's on a postcard. If it was fraud or a pastiche IMO it would adhere much more closely to what people expect of Chopin. I have heard many pastiches of Chopin and outside of one piece by Rosemary Brown none of them ever instantly sounded like Chopin. This one does. I actually think it is quite nice. Also aren't there some pieces of Chopin's that are owned by some family and have never really been heard except for like 1 line written down by somebody that saw them? I could not find it again on search so maybe not or maybe a different composer.

[@timkin8504]

I think it would be so very cool to see a spin off series on other composers in a similar format. Perhaps Rachmaninov or Scriabin would be interesting

[@samuelele]

Op 64 no. 2 repeats its introduction

[@ChopinhammerOp40k]

It really depends on the accuracy of the ink/paper dating. If written before 1839 (publication date of the trois nouvelle etudes), then I would have to conclude it must be an early draft of the first nouvelle etude. So it's either Chopin himself or a colleague that he shared it with.

[@christophedevos3760]

@@ChopinhammerOp40k have they done scientific analysis on this manuscript, ink, paper...?

[@rene-vlr]

Out of the five questions, only one seems to be reach the matter of authorship of the piece (or fragment). The other four only touch the appropriateness of its labeling as a waltz. The question of "feel", as you summarize it (or really of fingering) is the deeper and truly probing one, but it's also quite subjective. I personally find the fingering quite natural from a purely ergonomic standpoint, as using 5-4-2 for that position with f-d-a# allows the (for me very comfortable) 5-3-1 right after, on what is essentially a G major chord. I only find it clumsy if one tries to repeat it on the same position one octave down, which would be (like Alan Walker said) quite absurd. The fortississimo makes the fingering slightly more questionable, but dynamics are relative and there's a discussion to be had there about interpretive priorities. I haven't played enough Chopin to argue whether it is chopinesque or not, but I find it in no way unreasonable. Regarding the labeling of the manuscript as a waltz, I too had the (first) impression that it could easily be a fragment of a greater work. However, unlike Alan Walker, I don't think that its potential as a section of an unfinished Ballade or Scherzo makes it in any way less interesting or valuable. On the contrary, it invites imagination and inspiration. Regarding the sixteenth note triplet, I'd be curious to ask expert Chopin graphologists about the possibility of a missing sixteenth rest instead.

[@benlawdy]

@@rene-vlr thanks for the comment. I agree 54-2 feels good in my hand, and so does 53-2 actually. Based on what we know about Chopin’s hand I bet it would have been ergonomic for him and it helps prepare the next position. I indeed ask two experts (John Rink and Jeffrey Kallberg) about the rhythmic mistake - stay tuned.

[@rene-vlr]

@@benlawdy Thank you for the reply! I'll eagerly wait for the follow-up!

[@fitulus]

This piece was not finished yet. How do we know that other Chopin's pieces that he wrote were not first written in a way where there were repeats that were changed after when finishing the whole piece. When listening to this piece as a pianist i could immediately tell that Chopin has written this piece. Why would anyone write this piece down and NOT put own name on this creation? Especially if i'd be a composer too i wouldn't compose a piece and write my friends name on it. Also if my friend writes down MY PIECE then that handwriting will be not mine while the piece would be, which can also explain the small mistakes in the notations. This piece is totally not finished yet and who know's if this piece actually IS finished but on a different sheet which is nowhere to be found..

[@mickizurcher]

Agreed An experience Chopin player would know if it feels like Chopin. Chopin is spinning in his grave

[@callenclarke371]

The implication seems to be that Fontana notated a somewhat garbled rendition of a Chopin original. One thing that is striking is the word 'Chopin' itself on the top of the page. Seems like a weird thing for Chopin himself to do. On the other hand, it would be quite natural to put the name of the composer at the top if one was not himself the composer.

[@benlawdy]

Yes, my guess is it was a discarded draft of a gift left at someone’s house after dinner (or something like that). Somebody knew Chopin had (probably hastily) written it down, so they wrote his name at the top and stuck it in a drawer where it was forgotten about. Something like that seems plausible.

[@PianistDanielFritzen]

The title "Valse" might have been added later, as the name "Chopin" was added later. It seems to be the same handwriting. So we don't know for sure if this was meant to be a Waltz or a Mazurka. In Mazurkas, Chopin did write "fz" on second and third beats, in rare cases.

[@benlawdy]

@@PianistDanielFritzen Kallberg says Valse is in Chopin’s hand. Same ink as the notation, and actually it’s the same handwriting as other times he wrote ‘Valse,’ but park of the hook in the V didn’t come through so it looks a bit generic. “Chopin” is the only thing not in Chopin’s hand, according to expert examination.

[@PianistDanielFritzen]

@@benlawdy Thanks for clarifying. But isn't the title "Valse" put in a very unusual place? It's in the place where one usually writes tempo markings, suggesting "to be played in the style of a Waltz", whereas the usual place of the title was left empty and now says "Chopin".

[@Whatismusic123]

@@PianistDanielFritzen IIRC this place wasn't the usual place to write tempo markings during chopin's time, instead tempo was often written in front of the first measure, making it a bit off center.

[@PianistDanielFritzen]

@@Whatismusic123 I see, thank you

[@russelldeitch5765]

Valse was examined under the microscope. There wasn't enough ink for the rest of the V.

[@jbthepianist]

Disagree with him about the fingering being awkward, 54-2 for the first quaver pair makes perfect sense. 53-1 all the way down would feel really clumsy. Evidence in favour of authenticity. Otherwise, all valid points. It’s probably just a sketch of something with a few ideas left uncompleted, possibly as part of a teaching exercise.

[@benlawdy]

I agree, 54-2 feels good to me too. I think I actually play 53-2, but could go either way.

[@luky46]

This is a piece dedicated to Chopin, in the style of Chopin exactly like in Schumann's Carnaval which is entitled Chopin and recalls Chopin's style.

[@benlawdy]

@@luky46 but in Chopin’s hand?

[@mhermarckarakouzian8899]

Yunchan Lim recently played an encore, which was a piano transcription of Casta Diva (from Norma), seemingly by Chopin, but I cannot find anywhere reliable evidence that it is indeed by Chopin. Do you know anything about this? (P.S. There is a video of his performance)

[@mhermarckarakouzian8899]

Note, the score is easily located on IMSLP, by a mysterious uploader who I could also not find any info on.

[@pianomaly9]

Perhaps compare it to Thalberg's transcription, in his L' Art du Chant, Op.70.

[@Zympans]

My comment can't go through. Just google yourself then: Chopin e Bellini. „Casta diva”, manoscrito di F. Chopin the Chopin Institute site will pop up. It's supposed be a reconstruction of Chopin's accompaniment to the aria made by a Polish scholar in the 70's. I've never seen it with my own eyes. Yunchan's Casta Diva doesn't sound like an accompaniment to me too. But it's the only lead I was able to find when doing my research on the topic.

[@Zympans]

@@mhermarckarakouzian8899 the fact that Chopin's authorship is not denied in the description of a Tomasz Ritter (who is playing the "newly discovered Waltz" in the video we are commenting on by the way) recital from the January 2024 in Warsaw on the official Chopin Institute site is suggesting they know

[@rosiefay7283]

13:30 True, but Chopin's MS of the first mvt of the b♭ minor sonata op 35 doesn't have a "start of repeated section" sign either. Despite this, some people argue for the Doppio repeat. Could this be another example where Chopin intended a repeat from somewhere other than the start but didn't mark this?

[@benlawdy]

@@rosiefay7283 this is exactly the example Kallberg gives in his interview, and he even points out a motivic connection between the opening bars of the waltz and the later melodic material (the E-D#-D figure). Similarly what convinced scholars about the second sonata’s opening bars being part of the exposition was its motivic significance in the development.

[@WilfriedHLingenberg]

I think Alan Walker's reasoning does not really take into account the possibility that the piece may have been some sort of album leaf given to a friend. In that case, conventions of normal-scale compositions need not apply, and comparison with "normal" Chopin Valses may very well miss the point. Walker's point about the "fff" seemed strongest to me - but only on first sight: Such a dramatic introduction for such a short piece is exaggerated anyway, so an exaggerated dynamical marking is perfectly appropriate here. An album leaf will rather be intended to be rich in musical content and showcase a wide range of possibilities than to develop a well-crafted musical narrative in order to captivate an audience. As for the fingering, I really do not understand Walker's quarrel. So far from being "clumsy", the fingering is perfectly pianistic and elegant (while being non-obvious, which explains why it was a good idea to add it to the score). Yes, it surprised me at first, too; but on trying out I found it ingenious. Also: There is no burden of proof here. It is not a legal battle, and neither side needs to make their case "beyond reasonable doubt". We will all be happy if good old likelihood clearly points one of two ways. (Which I think it does; towards authenticity. John Rink made a good point in your following video, to the effect of: If the piece were not by Chopin, both its sheer existence and its specific characeristics would be very difficult, perhaps impossible, to explain.)

[@markbujdos584]

The fingering is not clumsy--Walker's suggestion is clumsy. A recipe for hitting the wrong notes.

[@HipolitoHernanz]

Given the somber beginning, the triple forte is justified as a sudden, temperamental expression of dismissal of the introduction, to transition in favor of the happier theme that follows. Overall, it swims, it has feathers, and it quacks. I am convinced this is a real duck!

[@alanleoneldavid1787]

It would be interesting a podcast about the other works of chopin that works as ballades but they are not ballades . Barcarolle , fantasie , polonaise fantasie etc.

[@Populous3Tutorials]

i think our only option is to revive Chopin for an hour, and ask him what if we never know the truth :(

[@kaspianocz6330]

The introduction to the waltz is super sus 😂, doesn't feel like Chopin at all, but there are some Chopin moments in there, I like the middle voices towards the end. Intro seem like Beethoven would write, diminished run over one steady chord in the bass with fff marking. But that mistake is super sus, because even Fontana, or any other composer with such a fluent handwriting, would not ever make.

[@debrucey]

Diminished yes, but the chromatic neighbour notes resulting in what is emharmonically a sequence of descending major triads a minor third apart? Definitely not in Beethoven’s language

[@benlawdy]

@@kaspianocz6330 wait until you hear from Rink and Kallberg. Apparently Chopin was known to make rhythmic errors. And Kallberg has an interesting theory about the introduction that makes me think it’s less weird that Chopin would repeat it back to the beginning. Stay tuned.

[@Neon_Music_777]

To me, it sounds like chopin. Who cares if it is or isn't, it sounds like it is and we'll never know anyway... experts this experts that. Experts say a lot of bull crap too😂 We'll never know guys, but what we do know is Chopin would be so pissed if it was his, because he said, burn any unpublished works after his death. I'd keep them though, sorry chopin, your works are too beautiful 😍 We love to worship things... chill out guy's... just be happy it sounds like his works... 😂 I'd play anything in chopins style even if it was composed by ice jj fish, god forbid, as long as it's beautiful... Rip chopin! 🙏

[@peter5.056]

Those solid chords also sealed the deal for me, NOT something Chopin would do. I reject this as a Chopin composition.

[@peter5.056]

"Destined to end up in Chopin's wastepaper basket." I believe I commented almost those exact words in a comment a couple weeks ago. This is either a sketch, or a composition by one of his students in an attempt to write something in the style of Chopin. It has a pedagogical "aroma" if you understand my rather synesthetic metaphor. My synesthetic sensibilities tell me this is not Chopin. I don't get Chopin-quality synesthesia from this piece.

[@JoeLinux2000]

It's a sketch for one of his students.

[@ClassicalFilmMusic-vh2wg]

Very interesting points (and video), but I think that - as others have observed - one cannot dismiss a piece as inauthentic just because it has features that do not belong to the "average" piece of the same form by the same composer. Almost all of Chopin's waltzes have something peculiar, that's why they are so memorable and distinctive. At first, what really stroke me as a possible red flag, instead, is the erroneous notation of the triplet. However, I know there are some composers who just do not respect the standard rules of notation in such cases, and for example would write indifferently 3 eighths in the place of 2, or 3 sixteenths in the place of 4 (which is what appears to happen here). So, I don't think this can be dismissed as a beginner's mistake; whoever wrote this manuscript clearly was not a beginner (the notation of the whole piece is too precise). Maybe he was merely following a different convention, which nowadays we consider wrong.

[@benlawdy]

@@ClassicalFilmMusic-vh2wg I agree with this and, as I’ve recently learned, it turns out Chopin was prone to rhythmic/numerical errors in his manuscripts. Forthcoming interviews will give some examples.

[@ClassicalFilmMusic-vh2wg]

@@benlawdy I'm not surprised to hear that; many composers, even the greatest ones, made mistakes of this kind. The first example that comes to my mind is Beethoven's Arietta from op.111, where in two variations he mixed up ternary and binary rhythmic notations, without notating triplet signs or augmentation dots, so that some 16ths are longer than others even in the same bar - and the ambiguity is resolved by the vertical alignment. From a stylistic point of view this piece really sounds to me as something that Chopin would write. Yes, for whatever reason he left it unfinished, but if he had added a trio section, a reprise of the first part, and a coda, it would convincingly pass as a waltz of his, and a beautiful one at that. The "fff" bars, with those repeating chords in the left hand, sound like something out of one of his mazurkas (e.g., think of op. 17 n. 4): in my mind, this reinforces the idea that the piece was written by Chopin, rather than the contrary.

[@mstalcup]

Chopin frequently employed innovations not used in previous pieces, so there should be no surprise that a newly discovered work by him would have some atypical touches. He valued not repeating himself.

[@benlawdy]

@@mstalcup indeed, and this point comes up in the forthcoming interviews with the other scholars.

[@cooltrades7469]

Great insight .Yes , it sounds more like a mazurka .

[@RobertSmith-le8wp]

It’s interesting that the note stems are written on the right side instead of the left. I just started watching so if this is covered I apologize. Also I’m asking you to cover at some point Liszts transcription of all 9 of Beethovens symphonies

[@benlawdy]

@@RobertSmith-le8wp Jeffrey Kallberg talks about this in my interview with him (forthcoming). It’s a trademark of Chopin’s notation to write all stems on the right side. I would love to make videos about Liszt’s transcriptions of the Beethoven Symphonies. Maybe I can just start with one though ;)

[@filipposaya]

Op 26 nr 1 has fff in the introduction and there are never any fff in the other polonaises

[@clhanon31415]

It's funny that the world's pianists rushed to youtube with their recordings of this piece, yet not one stopped to ask, as Mr Walker has asked, if the piece is even genuine.

[@creativecolours2022]

TBH I don't really mind if this piece was Chopin's or someone else's who composed in Chopin's style. What should concern us is if this piece of music has any worth on its own merit. My point is that it is the music that should interest us more than who wrote it. Chopin and any other old artist's name, is not a brand name to give by default more value to a "product". And same applies on all other works of art. Who said for example that Picasso didn't make crap artworks. Now I don't know if the Library that found this work in its archives wants to sell it in an auction. This is a whole different thing and would explain all that hype. But if this isn't their aim, then this piece should be published online for pianists to play it and judge themselves if it has any artistic and musical value. Chopin's music is in public domain after all. I'm not talking about the individual recordings I'm talking about his work.

[@Indulgence360Ptyltd]

This is my theory...he was playing around on the piano decided to write it down and it got lost so he replaced it with the other waltz in a minor

[@billcook4768]

Wow, that first guy is no fun. I’d hate to be seated next to him at a party. I understand skepticism, but even a skeptic can enjoy this mystery and the music.

[@gsandell]

I think one should be careful with the "Chopin hadn't done that before" reasoning. Let us not forget being young and encountering the Prelude No 2 in em for the first time: simple, awkward, muddy, dirge-like, and unlike any other Chopin. It's a fallacy to think that the Chopin ouevre we knew before this waltz set a limit on Chopin's creativity and ability to surprise.

[@militaryandemergencyservic3286]

having listened to what this man has said, I am even more of the belief that this wasn't by Chopin. I am now of the opinion that it was probably by Fontana (spelling?) I feel vindicated. However, 'truth is the daughter of time', as Bacon apparently said.

[@dbadagna]

Is Fontana known to have composed other Chopin forgeries?

[@militaryandemergencyservic3286]

@@dbadagna Not that I know of. But they are not hard to do - here are 6 of my own Chopin Waltz 'forgeries' - kzbin.info/aero/PLYUhuuvIrJm0FUesjaXqn8_iMW46dX7S9

[@militaryandemergencyservic3286]

@@dbadagna No - he was too clever to be caught...

[@lawrencetaylor4101]

He forgot to say, n'est-ce pas ? Instead of titling this the New Waltz, can we have a viewer poll to decide the title? a) You Tube Short Waltz b) Instagram Waltz c) Flatmate Waltz d) PutzFrau Waltz

[@benlawdy]

I was puzzling over what to call it, but “new waltz” (although somewhat misleading) seemed harmless enough. I like Instagram Waltz.

[@darrinsiberia]

It was Amy Cheney Beach "in the style of" Chopin.

[@callumkenmuir2825]

I think it is by someone, maybe Fontana, trying to compose like Chopin. It doesn't feel or sound like Chopin in places.

[@stevehinnenkamp5625]

Admire Alan Walker for scholarship, incredible biography of Chopin. But what about Fantastie-Impromptu? Chopin sketched it, withdrew it from publication. Thank God, the Impromptu survived! Chopin suffered immensely and by nature wished to be as perfect as Mozart. Somehow his Fantasy-Impromtu has thrilled listeners, pianist ever since! It may have ended it a wastebasket!

[@benlawdy]

@@stevehinnenkamp5625 my understanding is that the fantaisie impromptu ended up being a gift to a baroness (he revised it in 1835, and that manuscript turns up 100 years later). By overall I’m totally with you: there are several beautiful posthumous works, including other gift pieces, that I’m glad weren’t destroyed (which is what he wanted).

[@myklkay]

@@benlawdy Isn't it a bit odd that people who claim loving Chopin are playing works he wanted to be destroyed and not published ? Isn't it really disrespectful of his wishes and views on music ?

[@benlawdy]

@ I talk about this with Jeffrey Kallberg. I don’t think it’s so simple. I’ll share my thinking for what it’s worth. Presumably Chopin wanted only his best works left for posterity because he was protective of his legacy. But that concern Chopin felt in the 1840s did not even convince his closest friends and family to follow his wishes in the wake of his death, so first of all it’s hard to say we, complete strangers 175 years later, should strive to be on higher moral ground than they were. The truth is Chopin’s legacy thrived beyond his wildest dreams, and it thrived first and foremost around the celebration of his greatest published works. We’re only interested in the juvenilia and discarded pieces *because* of the mature published works. And if we were to bring him back to life and show him how he continues to be regarded as one of the greatest composers in history, competitions around the worlds dedicated to his music, airports and vodka named after him, uncountable recordings of his work, etc - my guess is that in light of new circumstances he’d be so dumbfounded as to no longer be concerned that we also happen to have found this little A minor waltz. Maybe he’d even tell us a funny story about how it came to be.

[@myklkay]

@@benlawdy The issue is that the people close to him thought they knew him better than he knew himself (and his view on music). I totally get that every bit of his music is very valuable for people who love it and it must be really hard to dismiss it. I'm guilty of it too : I listened to the pieces of the supposed 10th symphony of Beethoven but I know he wouldn't have wanted it to be played unfinished. But considered how perfectionist he was I'm not so sure he would be pleased to know that works he considered unworthy would be played today. Imagine Debussy discovering that Reverie, a music he described as "irrelevant, made quickly to be helpful, in two words : it's bad", is one of the most known and liked pieces he wrote : he would lose his mind.

[@benlawdy]

@ I guess my feeling is that we are not responsible for these long-dead composers’ will. At some point the ethical question fades away, history asserts itself, whether the original intentions or values of the historical actors were respected or not. Debussy’s Reverie is part of his (highly celebrated) legacy now. I’m not responsible for the fact that it didn’t perfectly accord with the will he wished to exert over his legacy. Most human beings in history don’t get to exert such power anyway, and it’s hard to take some ethical stance against the way history unfolded. I suppose this is a realist’s stance and might come across as callous, but it’s hard for me to care how Debussy or Chopin might feel anymore. Their speculative feelings are quite remote from the realities of history and culture.

[@Zympans]

IMO Alan Walker makes a very strong case here. In Poland, music lovers raised the same questions instantly. It looked so fishy, but also the music itself so weak and unnecessary, that not a single critic even wanted to take part in the ongoing debates. Only the mainstream media were sounding off about it. Which is telling.

[@drdarrylschroeder5691]

Compare the Nocturne No.20 (so-called) without an Opus Number after it was discovered in a collector's drawer, and which he had declined for so long to hand in for publication. There would be obvious similarities between the two, clearly identifying the newly-discovered Waltz as genuine or fake. It seems unlikely that someone would dare to append a counterfeit signature that was not that of the Master himself. I think they would have more respect than that, don't you? Now to practise it regardless.

[@caseym8385]

Alan must be real fun at parties. 😳

[@benlawdy]

@@caseym8385 actually my sources say he is!

[@ohigotchya]

One of the most affable and jocund men I’ve ever had the pleasure of meeting!

[@butwhatwouldiknow]

There are parties and parties.

[@3r7s]

@@benlawdy 😅😅😅

[@stefanolanza8018]

The F sharp minor waltz (also known as Valse Me'lancolique) is much more chopinesque. It's also fake.

[@tebanll]

FFF in the 7th bar in a Waltz introduction that sounds like a Mazurka? Way too suspicious. 🚩

[@moriscengic]

I had some respect for Walker but now I think he has no ear at all. The piece is screaming Chopin

[@cziffra1980]

I can't agree with him whatsoever on that fingering. While knowledgeable, I presume he's not much of a player. It's not the most outwardly effortless thing imaginable compared to some of Chopin's trends. However, it's far simpler to follow it and get two positions essentially in one, than to use 1 on a black key and then have a full reset. Any subtle awardness is truly miniscule compared to how the E minor etude works. It certainly doesn't overstep any line.

[@matthewjohnson1035]

eh, by this logic, you could find all the novelties in the minute waltz and think it was fake

[@benlawdy]

@@matthewjohnson1035 if all we had was a page of the minute waltz without Chopin’s signature we would be asking the same questions. But you’re right that novelties can’t be a reason against Chopin by itself, since so many of his pieces contain them. (For the record I think this is Chopin’s music and he just discarded for whatever reason, but worth understanding why the musicological world can can only say it’s “attributed to” Chopin based on the evidence/lack thereof)

[@matthewjohnson1035]

Also, whenever he's like "I can't think of any other waltz"... - it's not like Chopin wrote 100 of them. It's a small enough sample that I don't think we should get hung up on dissimilarities

[@balazsvitalyos9140]

"Az idő igaz s eldönti ami nem az." - írja Petőfi Bacon után.

[@markahmadieh7003]

Interesting take from Dr Walker. But i don't think his five points are convincing enough. First i think Lang Lang is a good enough pianist to gauge the "physical connection between the keys and pianist". I would definitely trust him and the other pianists that can feel that connection more than Dr Walkin. The remaining arguments that rely on "this doesnt not happen in other Chopin pieces" is a bit unconvincing, since most of his mazurkas are sketches or attempts at trying new sounds and techniques and ideas that never appear in other compositions. Some do btw. For point 5, Chopin does repeat his introductions in a few non-waltz pieces, that was the case in his early works, so just because it appeared in a waltz doesn't mean the entire piece is not his. Also the opening phrase is musically well formed on its own and builds to a clear climax that it isn't simply an intro, it's integral for the whole composition and leads the remaining melody. No interruption of ideas in it which is why it can be played "on repeat" and still makes sense. I just trust my ears, having listened to all Chopin's repertoire (from every recording i can find) and this feels like a typical Chopin mazurka or idea. There's something about how airtight his compositions are, where there's little to no fat added, and every note serves its perfect purpose that is evident in this sketch. It's very difficult to mimic this perfect efficient style of writing. Even when Schumann wrote his Chopin piece, in his style, it is evident that it lacked that tightness or cohesion and density in every measure that Chopin naturally writes in. This one has it

[@SuperDaveSF]

I lean heavily towards not authentic because, quite simply, it’s bad. Have any of the experts mentioned this?

[@tom6693]

What's wrong with regarding this as very likely an untitled sketch for a Mazurka and celebrating that as a significant Chopin find? Instead Walker's response strikes me as the kind of thing that gives academics a bad name. Smug, dismissive, pedantic, intent on identifying the trees at the risk of missing the forest. More than anything it has the tone of someone whose feathers have been ruffled by not being among the experts consulted by the Morgan on this new MS. His observations are worth considering, certainly, though some are downright feeble (even on a screen Fontana's hand is distinguishable from Chopin's). For me, his would never be the last word on this question; and so I'm looking forward to hearing from the other Chopin authorities, whose views I hope will be more open-minded and less disparaging.

[@benlawdy]

@@tom6693 I see why he comes across that way, but I interpret this more as an exercise put forward by a good professor to challenge students to think critically about a given topic. Sharply worded “devil’s advocacy” can be very helpful in compelling others to search critically for the truth. It can also come across as condescending, especially if you don’t want to be regarded as his “student.” Not sure about the Morgan Library stuff - maybe, although Walker isn’t a specialist in the kind of authentication they needed and doesn’t pretend to be. But ruffled feathers or not, it does appear that the announcement was designed to maximize publicity - maybe in the end that’s not such a bad thing, but it doesn’t mean it was done in the interests of truth and scholarship.

[@tom6693]

@@benlawdy Fair enough, Ben. I take your point about his response being a necessary call to think critically about this new find. I expect it was the overall de haute en bas tone that I found sort of off-putting. In any case, I'm now doubly eager to hear from the others.

[@benlawdy]

@ I get it. I just have lots of appreciation and respect for the 94-year-old Alan Walker given all he’s done for the world of classical music, and his continued passion for these issues and willingness to go on camera for the public can only come across as endearing to me!

[@adamrainis90]

@@tom6693 That was my takeaway from him as well. Calling this the “major musical embarrassments of our time” is a bit dramatic. One, who wouldn’t give anything to come across any sketches or rough drafts of pieces of Chopin, or any other major composer from history for that matter? As others have pointed out, he’s a little too stuck on himself. I understand the role of playing devils advocate, but I think it’s his approach here is what is off putting to many of us. I appreciate and respect the concept of let’s do what we can to rule out a hoax or what have you, but don’t downplay the significance of finding something that is likely tied to Chopin in some manner. It feels as though that this find didn’t have some grandiose piece of music and therefore isn’t worth the “brouhaha” as he put it. The recently discovered Mozart piece wasn’t anything earth shattering special, but how awesome to still have something “new” to enjoy. So yeah, that’s my issue with these types of academics - they almost always take any joy out of anything.

[@brettaspivey]

The point is, in any case, it is noy very good so it doesn't really matter

[@jannis7139]

Btw the first timestamp is named incorrectly. Should be 21st instead of 20th!

[@benlawdy]

Will fix!

[@DonatStratos]

I really appreciate your efforts! I need some advice: I have a SafePal wallet with USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). What's the best way to send them to Binance?

[@paulmeisel339]

Well, I somehow knew after one listening to that waltz, that it didn't sound like real Chopin to me. I have played nearly all of his works in my life and there are very few of them with "not so good" quality. I took only a short glimpse to the manuscript : As I already mentioned in my first comment, I don't like the Pedal A for so long in the beginning of a piece and of course the unmotivated fff in the 7th bar. I think, Mr. Walker is perfectly right with his 5 "questions", which are suggesting the answers already, because they are good questions. This is no real Chopin and moreover I think, his quite musical copiest Fontana wouldn't have made such a beginner's mistake as the wrong writing of the triplets either. So, what is it? If paper and ink would be proved to a 100% right, it might has been a little joke of Fontana or even someone else. Chopin was much to serious with writing down his music perfectly, to bring out the possible best shape of his ideas, as to write any nonsense or sort of second class music. I still think, it's a fake ( and also not a very good one ).

[@JoeLinux2000]

A fake using the correct paper, ink, hand of Chopin, and musical style? That's a stretch. More likely to be a hastily created gift from Chopin to an admirer.

[@what_should_i_call_myself4382]

Coming off the proffesors 5th question, does that mean that the waltz in a minor op 34 no 2 is not written by chopin?

[@christophedevos3760]

I absolutely comply with Alan Walker, the proof is very thin, everybody could have added the name Chopin in this rather generic European cursive handwriting, on a score that doesn't necessarily have to be by Chopin himself, but for instance wrongly attributed to him by a too eager amateur collector for instance, and so forth. The timing of this 'relevation' is also very fishy of course if is it already many years in the collection.

[@JoeLinux2000]

Actually the proof that it isn't by Chopin is less than thin, It's grasping at straws of little significance.

[@christophedevos3760]

@JoeLinux2000 I beg to differ, on the contrary.