The A. C. Grayling Talk - Proving Atheism

[@waynejones1054]

Brilliant as always.

[@colclark107]

Always love hearing from Prof. Grayling! Thanks for sharing. It helps those of us on this side of the Pond.

[@Chardonbois]

Worth putting up with the dodgy soundtrack to hear this great thought-leader. Subscribed.

[@PierreDuhamel-lj1vb]

THE intelligence and conscienous of this UNIVERS is way beyound any concept of human mind and life is a priceless mystery...

[@petergleeson295]

Become a polymath and know that is required

[@Nigelzenig]

One of the most articulate exponents of ideas we have

[@billmitchell2080]

Life gives meaning to life.

[@MrLucianEnache]

Thank you

[@librulcunspirisy]

Thanks 👍

[@samparkes2477]

"We are like someone who, having found a magnifying glass a revelation in dealing with pond life, insists on using it to gaze at the stars - and then solemnly declares that if only people in the past had had such a wonderful magnifying glass to look through, they'd have known that, on closer inspection, stars don't actually exist at all" Iain McGilchrist

[@canwelook]

Got it. It's like finding the bible a wonderful tool for understanding a past culture's superstitions... and then looking through it again to conclude, on closer inspection, that evolution could never have happened at all.

[@samparkes2477]

​@@canwelook yep, you got it alright. “Clever!” Only ‘religious’ (and atheist) fundamentalists, bad scientists, simpletons and Ricky Gervais (who is all of the above and whom I suspect is the summit of your intellectual aspirations) think that ‘religion’ and evolution are mutually exclusive. The early church fathers knew to read the texts allegorically. Metaphorical language is essentially the language of ‘religion’. Only a literal, fundamentalist reading of a religious text comes to such a sloppy, intellectually impoverished, black and white conclusion. “It’s either this or it’s that”. It’s a categorical error of such profound proportions that it almost renders the question void. What McGilchrist (who is a scientist btw) is saying- in short, using metaphorical language, which you’ve clearly failed to grasp- is that there are different ways of ‘knowing’, or arriving at truth, and that science is one way- a very useful way- but it is not the only way, and to dismiss something that does not conform to the criteria of modern scientific understanding as fundamentally worthless is a mistake. Are aboriginal Australians deluded and stupid because they have not embraced modern, western, mechanistic notions of reality? If a fisherman cast his nets which had a certain sized mesh, he could expect to catch a certain sized fish only, to expect anything else would be hubristic, and to suspect that there were nothing else would be ignorance. I would recommend that you read McGilchrist’s latest book, The Matter With Things. I mean that sincerely.

[@arthurwieczorek4894]

'The exception proves the rule', meaning delineates the context of the rule's applicability, is in line with the Principle of principles, which is, No principle is of absolute applicability.

[@danhoff4401]

Well here to the presuppositionalists that insist on proving God via the impossibility of the contrary. Every existing religion could be false provably false testibly false, and such a thing that humanity would describe as God could still exist. So I don't think it's possible to prove atheism. I think the best you can do is proof that all existing theistic religions are false.

[@briansmith3791]

I would have thought that this is the time for a 'Humanist' philosopher to step up and publicly express his views on the human tragedy in Gaza? I've searched ACGraylings X timeline but can't seem to find anything. Maybe someone can enlighten me on this? Or any other prominent humanist, atheist, new atheist's views on Gaza?

[@bretttheroux8040]

I think the Kalam cosmological argument, while abstract in the extreme, is perhaps the most compelling argument for God’s existence.

[@canwelook]

Lol. The Kalam cosmological argument makes no reference to any god.

[@SeekingVirtueA]

I don't like the Kalaam but would say that most open-minded individuals feel that contingency arguments broadly are the best arguments for something resembling God. Joe Schmidt of Majesty of Reason for example. As an agnostic leaning atheist I would agree - but there are contingency arguments that don't have the flaws of the Kalaam.

[@canwelook]

@@SeekingVirtueA Contingency arguments are IMO pure intellectual wankery, and disingenuous wankery at that. If every contingency argument was accepted for argument sake that would get us not one inch closer to proving the existence of any specific god. People do not come to believe in any specific god because of any contingency argument. Contingency argument are only used by theists to justify their belief formed for other reasons. Instead of lining up the exact same contingency arguments that, say, Muslims use to justify their claim that Allah exists, or Hindus might use to say that Vishnu exists, Christians should simply present the arguments and evidence that caused them to believe in the first place - if they wish to be authentic, and seen as authentic.

[@briansmith3791]

I tend to look to science rather than philosophy for evidence of a creator. " Physicists say the universe is fine-tuned for Life" - Dawkins. We have observable evidence for one universe fine-tuned for Life, that for me, points to a creator.

[@dechskaison2497]

​@@briansmith3791Fine tuned for life, yet only one planet in trillions seems to have any life. Fine tuned for life, yet if you were dropped to a random point on Earth's surface, you're dead within minutes for 80% of it.

[@Dr.AuMădoare]

too bad the audio quality does not help...Mr. Grayling is one of my fav. atheist polemicist of all time

[@philosophyofvalue8506]

Grayling didn't live up to promise on this occasion. I would offer my argument from Spiderman. But as this isn't an open question for me, I'm not motivated to present it.

[@B41988]

... preferring Professor Grayling's definition of "rational" to that of Merriam-Webster, (c) 2014; theirs is vague at best.

[@samparkes2477]

This is like Lionel Blair impersonating an intellectual on The One Show

[@brianandkathleencox7384]

Please tell me Prof Grayling why is there something rather than nothing?

[@canwelook]

Lol. God of the gaps.

[@petermartell568]

if there were nothing, the question would not be asked.

[@Detson404]

Don’t know. What do you think happened and why do you think that?

[@briansmith3791]

@@canwelook " Physicists say the universe is fine-tuned for Life" - Dawkins. We have observable evidence for only one universe fine-tuned for Life. I'd be interested to hear your view on how this came about.

[@canwelook]

@briansmith3791 When there is a lack of appropriate evidence supporting verifiable, falsifiable, testable hypotheses, rather than wildly speculating I say 'I don't know'. What do you do?

[@Detson404]

Proof that theists don’t have a monopoly on word salad.

[@johnhall2708]

What an untotored and vacuous comment - try thinking

[@theunknownatheist3815]

Sorry, but this doesn’t “prove atheism”. I’m still an atheist (6.9 on the Dawkins Scale), but this wasn’t proof. You may be able to prove specific religions false. For instance, I have a VERY high level of confidence that Christianity is false, but there still might be some other kind of “god” or “creator” being. But, I see no reason to believe there is one.

[@chrisbea49]

I didn't catch the proof you can prove a negative. Hitchens anti-theism more of disbelief + hope I'm not wrong.

[@stevecoddington7319]

I think of God as a presence and not an object. This talk speaks of gods as people. John said God is love. Does that sound like a person? Love is expressed by people. But love is not a person. 1 John 4:8,16 No one has ever seen God says John. (John 1:18). We declare God. God is a Word. (John 1:1). Love is a word. God is Spirit (John 4:24). God is a Mind (Leviticus). We express that presence. We have a mind. We speak with it. We think with it. We heal with it. Is not this what Jesus did? He even said that God was doing the work thru him. And he healed, raised the dead, cast out sin. He said we could do the same thing and greater. Now, I ask, when he walked on the water to the boat where the disciples were it is said that he was bright in appearance. He looked what some might call supernatural. (keep in mind that he said we could do this too)_ Is not God with and in us all? Luke 17:20,21 and Ephesians 4:6.

[@Edward-zw9ld]

Humanism does not work.

[@PierreDuhamel-lj1vb]

Atheism might articulate multiple argumentation over various concepts of God and Godesses and religions are as corrupt and dogmatic as the human that makes them

[@TBOTSS]

What did you think about A. C. Grayling lying about his debate with William Lane Craig?

[@PierreDuhamel-lj1vb]

@@TBOTSS sorry not awere

[@franciscoabreu4893]

This isn’t good

[@justafishingdude]

The Bible is able to offer testable, verifiable evidence in the form of specific, fulfilled prophecies - in fact, the Bible is about 1/4 prophecy! In addition to the many, many historical examples of fulfilled prophecy, here are just a few that have happened in the past 100ish years. Israel Scattered and returning to her land: Deuteronomy 28:64 says, "And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other...". Additionally, Ezekiel 36:19-24 says, "I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the Lord’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ I had concern for my holy name, which the people of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone. “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes. “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land." This is quite amazing. God said He would scatter Israel throughout the world for their disbelief and return them back to their land. What other people in the history of mankind has been scattered across the world for hundreds/thousands of years and then returned to their homeland (the very same geographic land) as an identifiable people? This isn't just being moved from one place to another place after being conquered - it is being literally scattered throughout the world. This is unprecedented throughout the history of humankind and yet the Bible said it would happen way before 1948 when Israel was reborn as a nation. In fact, Jews have been returning to Israel from all over the world such as: China, The US, Japan, Russia, India, France, Argentina, Sweden, Spain, Poland, Canada, the UK, South Africa, etc. The land divided: We are also told the land will be divided in Joel 3:1-2, which says, "In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land". Notice that last part "...and divided up My land". It was foretold that the land would be divided! Logically, if it weren't divided then God couldn't put the nations on trial for dividing it. Yes, Israel is back in a part of the very same land they used to have just as foretold, but the land has been divided as well (and nations continue dividing and/or trying to divide it to this day). The land was in fact divided by Britain, who was in charge of making this land a place for the Jewish people. Instead much of the land was given to the Arabs/"Palestinians". This was formalized in the United Nations Partition Plan which was adopted by the UN General Assembly On 29 November 1947 Resolution 181. This was written WAY before 1947/1948, yet we now see that the land has been divided by the nations and they keep dividing/trying to divide it. Although this did not actually create the nation of Israel, it divided the ancestral land of the Jews. The country reborn in 1 day: What's more, the Bible said Israel would be reborn as a nation in 1 day. Isaiah 66:7-8 says, "Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children." This happened May 14, 1948 when Israel declared itself to be a nation and President Truman (the US being a superpower of the time) formally acknowledged them as such. Contrast this with the founding of the US - they declared themselves to be a nation with the declaration of independence in 1776, but no countries acknowledged them as a nation at that time. In fact, the first country to declare them a nation was Morocco in 1777 and the first major world power of the time to acknowledge them was France in 1778. Yet, in the case of Israel, Britain's mandate over the land ended at midnight on May 14, 1948 and Israel declared themselves to be a nation and were recognized as a nation in this one day - fulfilling the prophecy with stunning precision! Let's step back now and think about these prophecies. The Bible makes the claim that the Jewish people would be scattered throughout the entire world and return to the very land they were in as an identifiable people. To put into perspective just how bold this prophecy is, this feat has never happened to any other people throughout the history of humankind. In essence, the Bible predicted something that has never happened throughout human history would happen to a specific people long before it happened, and it came to pass exactly as foretold! As if that wasn't enough, it foretold that this very land would be divided among the nations, which we know also happened in 1947/1948 and beyond. Even more, it foretold that the nation of Israel would be "born" in 1 day - which happened with stunning accuracy on May 14, 1948! There isn't any other religion out there that offers these kinds of specific prophecies that we know with 100% certainty were written well before they happened. We don't need to simply have blind faith in something - we should have a good reason for what we believe and the Bible provides it! Why not accept the gift of salvation today? John 3:14-18, "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." Additionally, here is a fabulous message illustrating salvation through the account of the thief on the cross. It's only a about a half hour and for something with eternal consequences, it makes sense to at least hear it out right? :) kzbin.info/www/bejne/lYiun4Ocn75lorM

[@donaldclifford5763]

I like those last two words, "Show less".

[@donaldclifford5763]

The ultimate god of the gaps argument is god is beyond proving and is just unknowable. That defines god out of existence. Otherwise if you claim there is evidence, it is subject to empirical rational inspection. And it means god is limited.

[@justafishingdude]

@@donaldclifford5763 In addition to the prophecies already shown, allow me to also present a few Biblical end times prophecies talked about in the book of Revelation that are now feasible given the technology needed for them to take place is now a real possibility. These events take place during this prophesied 7 year tribulation period: Revelation 11:7-10 says, "Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city-which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt-where also their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth." How could people from every tribe, language and nation gaze upon their bodies at the time this was written? We can pretty safely say this wasn't a good possibility even 100 years ago given the technology of the time, much less 2,000ish years ago when the prophecy was written. Now with smartphones, laptops, tv, starlink, etc. we have the technology to make this a reality. Either the writer (John) somehow guessed future technology, or he was actually shown the future by the God who makes known the end from the beginning. Another such prophecy that we can see the "shadows" creeping in, is the coming mark known as the mark of the beast (which will happen during the tribulation period that Revelation talks about) that will be forced on all people in order to buy or sell. Revelation 13:16-17 says, "It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name." The technology is here now for such a mark to happen with all the microchips we have and even Bill Gates patent for a Quantum Dot Tattoo (note: I'm not saying this is the mark, however, the technology now exists to pull it off). As far as we know, nothing even resembling this technology existed when this prophecy was written, so again, either the writer (John) somehow guessed future technology, or was actually shown the future.

[@donaldclifford5763]

No thank you. Not interested.

[@tonguemybumb]

hard pass.