The Aesthetic | ContraPoints

What matters more-the way things are or the way things look?
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Check out my other videos:
Incels: • Incels | ContraPoints
The West: • The West | ContraPoints
Tiffany Tumbles: • Tiffany Tumbles | Cont...
Jordan Peterson: • Jordan Peterson | Cont...
Capitalism (Part 2): • What's Wrong with Capi...
Capitalism (Part 1): • What's Wrong with Capi...
America-Still Racist: • America: Still Racist ...
Autogynephilia: • Autogynephilia | Contr...
Violence: • Violence | ContraPoints
Degeneracy: • Degeneracy | ContraPoints
The Left: • The Left | ContraPoints
Decrypting the Alt-Right: • Decrypting the Alt-Rig...

[@MH-hv1gf]

I hate when people try to decide "who won" in these kinds of videos. I've never gotten the sense that it's meant to express a winner. it's just dissecting the issue

[@facelessdrone]

People see it as who won by seeing which arguments are better, so the winner is some what subjective. It wasn't intended that way, but you cant stop people from adding themselves into what they see

[@diehuldige4732]

I feel like that too, in this debate I thought about arguments from both sides "Wow, that's convincing!" and that's so confusing! But at the same time so interesting and complex

[@citizeninsane8518]

Whenever I try to explain how trans women are women and trans men are men to people, I just end up arguing over whether they are who they are because of how they are seen or they are who they are because of how they identify. So, as someone who went into this video unbiased, I can confirm that I remain unconvinced.

[@malum9478]

@@citizeninsane8518 unconvinced of what? you're not getting it, like M H said, there isn't a "winner" here, it's a dissection of an issue.

[@amellirizarry9503]

i think we can agree that Tabby Chan is the best girl of this anime, change my mind

[@ContraPoints]

When you get your PhD they give you a new wig.

[@antediluvianatheist5262]

I hate your new character.

[@mathiaslaurence1006]

Wig of debt?

[@buck5200]

This is the first time I genuinely disagree with natalie.

[@queenperson6833]

I love your videos. It's the only thing that keeps me alive at this point.

[@larvitardratini5965]

3:29 I see both as black and blue but the left one is brighter. Anybody else?

[@kristinajohansson1351]

It's so weird that Justine is friends with both Tabby and Tiffany. I really wish Contrapoints would be a Netflix-show where we could follow all these characters more closely.

[@stuartgrooves1115]

Its not so weird. You can (sometimes) be friends with people with different beliefs, as long as you respect them and they respect you.

[@VelvetCondoms]

@@stuartgrooves1115 it's true. I have plenty of friends who are more politically moderate than I am.

[@AdrianColley]

Keeping up with the ContraPoints

[@vitoriagarcia4100]

Fuck yeah

[@tortis6342]

And they've all been on The Freedom Report, with Jackie Jackson.

[@isxiahrxxxxx6725]

"i didn't say it was insensitive, i said it was unfair." that line is really the crux of why justine is wrong, even if tabby isn't always 100% right. jesus this video still hits different on the sixth viewing

[@zieteniere7500]

@Malum I think this gets at something important too. Some people are able to see where things are unfair, and other people don't, and I think that is where the tension is. Once again empathy would fix this.

[@NobodyXChallengerYT]

isxiah rxxxxx As much as I wanna believe that Tabby is the winner, I don’t think I can say that. She certainly has my sympathy, and her arguments function better for the long-term benefit of queer people, but that “I’ve seen minds change and hearts soften” line hits different after the Canceling video. As grueling and humiliating as it is to admit, it sometimes does feel like you have to capitulate to something unfair to be taken seriously. I hate wrestling- but I do it occasionally because I feel like I have to work twice as hard to be taken half as seriously as a man, considering that I’m gay. I find myself unable to invalidate Justine’s work. There are those that can deal with capitulating and those that cannot. Both are important, on some level.

[@raem7846]

I feel like it's the constant conflict of how the world SHOULD be versus how it is. Philosophically, Tabby is morally correct, but what's that got to do with the price of onions? We don't live in a thought experiment, we live in the awful, awful world.

[@isxiahrxxxxx6725]

@@NobodyXChallengerYT i dont believe either of them won, and i dont think it really matters who has the better arguments when the world we live in is still so complicated and capable of cruelty. i was just tired of people saying that because justine seems like she's being more realistic that justine is right. both of them understand the unfairness of it all, but justine constantly moves to minimize what the experience of unfairness really is, which in some ways we all do when we just want to get by. i think it's reasonable to not constantly dwell on the *unfairness* of it all, but it's also reasonable to push back when people take someone recognizing unfairness to be naive or overly sensitive about how the world works, which is what justine does to tabby. in the end i think it's more like the elephant poem than like fully taking a side. each is partially in the right, and all are in the wrong. abigail can pish off though

[@NinaSelene]

@@isxiahrxxxxx6725 really good points. I do think that Justine should get off Tabby's case, she can wear what she wants. BUT, the ending to me felt like Justine's point. Did I get it wrong or was the Tracy character talking in the end about a horrible sexual experience? So, in a way, it's true that you are able to wear what you want, but things like that can happen if you do, because this is the horrible world. And after the credits, the place where Tiffany lost herself... Tiffany was Justine to a worse extreme and she had even a bigger dysphoria for it. Right? So I agree that both are right to an extent. And if that's he case, why was Natalie regretting this video? She did say sorry for it but none were her complete thoughts!

[@GaryArkham]

"You think you are in the forum, when you're really in the circus" Holy. Shit.

[@kota86]

That washed over me like a wave of bricks.

[@mordenkainen88]

I hate how true this is. I loathe it. Despise it. It's a repugnant state of affairs.

[@austinsmith538]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eWGme2Wqndt9gLc

[@jvegaalbela]

Bars

[@merry0ldsoul716]

That hit me to! ... Not that the Forum is a much more desirable place to talk about change, though. Let's ask the Gracchi brothers what they think about it.

[@EmperorTigerstar]

I wish most conversations on issues could be this deep.

[@ReasonableRadio]

and that they weren't always with ourselves.......

[@FerrettyTheClaws]

This is the last place I expected to see you haha

[@IizUname]

Watch the Majority report, at 1.5x if necessary

[@marialuke2116]

Depression +50 Knowledge +50 Appreciation & Gratitude +50

[@pizzannn]

I feel like all the Twitter discourse that slams Natalie forgets that these are characters talking to each other from opposite sides of an argument. This isn't Natalie talking to the camera. She's merely exploring these arguments to gain a broader understanding of them.

[@KittyPikaChu]

Twitter is too brain dead to understand any of this

[@pizzannn]

Androva J. Now I don’t think that’s the case

[@enderwiggins8248]

pizzannn that is the most reasonable response to an unreasonable accusation I have ever seen

[@moltendiamonds1567]

@Androva J. Why is being a furry so bad?

[@xxgirl101xx]

molten diamonds honestly idk. Furries are usually pretty nice in my experience.

[@brentalfloss]

At this point, I basically stop what I'm doing and fire up the KZbin app on my TV when you drop a video.

[@Nerdcoresteve1]

brentalfloss Same

[@EalasaidH]

Yep

[@ModerateExtremism]

And now I want a "What if ContraPoints had Lyrics" video...

[@tealGalaxy]

Kim Kardashian Un If you want to troll people you should probably learn not to be so obvious. Not only did you reply to a positive comment, it's a positive comment by a well known youtuber AND you used a slur. It's way too obvious buddy, you're not going to piss off anyone when you're this bad. Not to mention you made your name some meme garbage. F- attempt.

[@mynameisjack0618]

Kim Kardashian Un Bugger off

[@LyleShnub]

Really dug how the heavy conversation between Tabby and Justine ended with them being like "let's just try to be friends and try to escape this terrible world together". Maybe that's how I felt while watching this. Felt kinda melancholic. It feels almost hopeless and exhausting. I feel like maybe that was the goal here. It's like people are trying to figure out the answer(s) to complicated questions and other folks are seizing that moment to come down on those people just for asking the questions in the first place. I'm gonna play video games.

[@wanderingoryx3710]

Do you own a switch?

[@dirt420]

what

[@kazioification]

Lyle Shnub - Video games are always the answer. You're a smart person. Cheers!

[@Schadrach42]

@Lyle Shnub I think you just came very close to why the assorted "geeky" subcultures all get so pissy when people try to make their domains "about" politics. Sure, you can't entirely escape politics in any endeavor, but turning escapism into propaganda is, as Justine put it "ruining art." Another way I put it to someone in the past is that the problem isn't that you want to make Steven Universe, the problem is that you want to turn whatever is popular into Gen Zed.

[@EDoyl]

"So trans women just starting their transition are *pretending* to be women?" "I mean, isn't that kind of what it felt like?" ooh "So according to you, a trans woman is just a full time drag queen." "That's what any woman is." *OOH* Killer lines in this one

[@katiem5245]

Thats a simple explanation of performative gender theory. I don’t necessarily subscribe to it because I think gender has more pieces but yeah it is summed up really well with an aesthetically pleasing style

[@JLittleBass]

Yeah, that bit reminded me of an interview Dolly Parton recently did with Rupaul wherein Dolly said, "Yeah, you dress up like a woman and perform as such when you feel like it, but then you also get to take all that drag off and go around in public without it when you feel like it, whereas I have to be 'in drag' ALL THE TIME whenever I'm in public."

[@beatrixlozach4840]

@@JLittleBass True. I mean, I’m sure Dolly enjoys dressing up, but at this point, it’s not really a choice, is it? She has an image, so even though she’s in her seventies and may feel a little exhausted with the image (possibly, I won’t speak for her) she has to maintain the surgeries and the hair and the gorgeous outfits. She’s a brilliant songwriter, but that’s not the reason Dolly has so many gay fans and why so many drag queens dress up as her, and you can’t deny it.

[@boonsaplenty3924]

@@beatrixlozach4840 I hope at least some queens love Dolly for her music and her stage presence, she's an amazing artist 🥺

[@johnwalker1058]

@@katiem5245 I personally apply the acorn and oak tree analogy to combining the sense that gender is identity and that gender is performance, especially in the context of a trans person's gender identity. On the one hand, you are recognized as being a certain gender depending on how you behave and express yourself and whichever gender more closely goes along with that in its associated characteristics. A trans person's gender as they are going through the motions of social transitioning to more effectively pass as the cisgender version of their gender is an oak tree. However, a person only performs a certain way because of how they identify in the first place. A trans person's gender when they are merely identifying themselves as their identified gender is an acorn. So while simply identifying as a certain gender, but without doing or expressing anything to reflect that identification isn't enough to be perceived as a certain gender, a person wouldn't just simply identify a certain way and leave it at that. They would also behave and express themselves a certain way to reflect the way they identify. An acorn by itself is not an oak tree; it needs to have soil, water, and sunlight to grow into an oak tree. However, you would never get an oak tree with all the soil, water, and sunlight in the world if you didn't already have an acorn to work with in the first place. Thus to me, the way someone acts as well as self-expresses and the way someone identifies are two sides of the same gender coin. You identify a certain way, then act and express yourself to reflect that, but you only ever act and express yourself a certain way to begin with because of how you identify in the first place. Gender is not strictly identification, and it is not strictly performative. Gender is the amalgam of self-identification and performance (both personal and social).

[@Sonnera]

This is a common debate amongst people in marginalized groups. To what extent do you "play the game," acquiesce to the system for some personal benefit, safety or security, and to what extent do you challenge and resist, so as to not perpetuate systems of oppression? I think Contra trys to make strong arguments on each side of the debate to demonstrate the tensions and competing outlooks through character conversations. Reducing it to "Which viewpoint is Contra endorsing" is a little simplistic. I imagine she is more on the side of freedom of self expression and challenging gender essentialism and narrow gender presentation, but she probably sees the valid concerns of folks less on her side.

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

@Will Fin it is? i find that most people just fall in line and do what they've been socialised to do since their childhoods. very few people seem to question anything

[@zmdumpbox2340]

@Will Fin Yes, but minoritized groups and minorities in general tend to run into that human experience more often, because they are often seen as at-least-somewhat representative of their social group. The pseudo-conversation Natalie conducts on this video, as well as the philosophical debate OP here posits, is pretty accurate to the kind of debates minoritized group members often have internally whenever they're reduced to tropes by other humans.

[@dreamwithinadreamfilms]

Disability too. A "good disabled person" is submissive and sympathetic; but a "bad disabled person" talks about how it's not only disability but Ableism that causes real problems in our lives; (Alternatively, though; some people think that "being disabled" means being miserable all the time and never being happy, which isn't true either) but ultimately we depend on society to recognize our disabilitie(s) in order to be eligible for the benefits that "being disabled" implies. On forums and social media, such as Facebook; I struggle finding a happy medium between being the "strong, brave, stoic sick girl", being chill and normal, and showing those parts of my life that are actually hard. Although I'm not "lying" about either side of myself (I'm both, because I have good days and bad) it's all a performance that requires balance and finesse to look like what a "sick girl" or a "disabled woman" is supposed to look like; without looking "too sick", "too well", or "too disabled." (I particularly related to the part about how your "identity" can be taken away based on what other people think; because just as people with obvious physical disabilities have trouble being seen by others as "whole people"; or as anything other than just "disabled." People who are disabled with chronic illnesses, like me, are often told we "look fine" and therefore we must be fine. It all depends on what other people think, rather than our actual physical realities.) I can even see how this relates to the Feminist/Trans/Racial issue; in the sense that people with obvious (aesthetic) physical disabilities are like biological women, and people with "invisible disabilities" are like trans women; who have to "prove" that they are disabled to societies and institutions; (like the government, in the form of social security for the disabled, and to the Department of Motor Vehicles for people who have transitioned from one gender to another) in much the way trans women need to prove themselves to others to be recognized as women; while the obviously physically disabled (amputees would be one good example) are often reduced to their disability; just like biologically born women are often reduced to their womanhood; and women of color are often reduced to being representatives or stereotypes of their race, by society.

[@zmdumpbox2340]

@Will Fin I seriously debated whether to dignify your response with one of my own, but here we go. I had to debate myself, considering how well you knocked me off my feet by flatly ruling out in use of our conversation a core element of study and discussion in sociology. It seems you are either unwilling to, or are outright unable to imagine that a human experience unlike your very own exists. It's as if any human experience talked about that does not resemble what you've gone through is utter nonsense. When faced with such blind cynicism, I wonder if a discussion can even be had here, because rather than attempt to dismantle my talking point, you seem content to just call me a meanie for using big words to someone I just met. Having said that, what is your relationship to Natalie? Aren't you effectively entering a conversation with her (who is effectively a stranger to all of us) and other commenters (also strangers) by leaving a comment yourself? I see others here using "ideology"-laden words in their comments too. Why not tell them off while you're at it? I genuinely want to know what authority you have to tell me I can't use "ideology"-laden words in a conversation with an entire Internet full of stangers, when you yourself are in a conversation with strangers, wielding an "ideology" yourself (namely, that "ideologies" like minoritized groups" don't really exist). I await your response. EDIT: Also, I can't believe I care enough to continue participating in a KZbin comment discussion with a stranger who flat-out refused to let me use a talking point, but usage of the term "minoritized" instead of "minority" is a topic in a lot of sociology discussions. www.theodysseyonline.com/minority-vs-minoritize

[@dreamwithinadreamfilms]

@Will Fin I think that depends on the situation; but mostly it boils down the difference between what we can do, and what other people *think* we can do. For example, if I sometimes cancel plans because I'm not feeling well, (even if that frustrates other people) that's not the same thing as *never* wanting to go out or be invited out. It's respectful to listen to disabled people when they say there's something they literally can't do; but it's Ableist to tell a disabled person what they *can* do, what they *should* do, or what's best for them. (Unless you're their doctor, and even doctors are sometimes Ableist.) Other than that, "accessibility" is an issue for many disabled people; and although able-bodied people are under no obligation to "accommodate" the disabled, in theory; there's no denying that most buildings, work schedules, etc. are designed for able-bodied people. (But of course great strides have been made in that area.) I know this is a bit of a stretch; but I can relate this to the trans issue in the sense that calling a woman who looks like a man a "she" is **technically** an accommodation; but just as work accommodations help the disabled transition back into work; allowing the gender dysphoric to be recognized as the gender they identify as; whether they physically (aesthetically) resemble that gender or not is an accommodation that helps trans people transition back into society as the gender they feel they are, or should be.

[@MrARCN7]

Usually I really don't like the more fictionalised format, but I think it really works best as a friendly conversation. It really highlights the contrast between the unproductive nature of internet """debate""" versus having a good faith argument.

[@CorwinFound]

I love how sometimes I come out of your videos not really sure what your own personal opinion is. That's powerful. There isn't the narrator "correct answer" with the built in assumption of agreement. I have to pay attention and decide on the merits of each argument and in the end decide that there probably isn't a singular right answer. The truth is individual and fluctuating. Or decide what the right answer is for me but know that maybe you even as the creator wouldn't agree with that. You've still chosen to give the viewer the freedom to find that answer for themself. It's pretty damned cool.

[@helios7170]

Exactly why I love ContraPoints

[@amacuro]

Does that mean that she herself isn't sure what to think or is she playing 3 dimensional chess with our brains? :P

[@mizjulio]

i can't believe "this is a human rights violation!" and "i like to see naked people" are in the same video, iconic

[@HeartSongPony]

I am not trans, and although I am not going to say that my personal experience is equivalent to the situation expressed in this video, I can say that this really resonated with me. I have always hated my looks, I have always been a tom boy, and I have always worked in male-led industries. For 25 years I didn't know how to really apply make up, I never style my hair, never wear anything other than work clothes, and act like a greasy line cook. I am not feminine. But there is power in being feminine. When I do dress like a woman, EVERYONE changes how they treat me. They talk about how, "I clean up nice" and hold eye contact with me longer. They smile more, and people listen better. I have always looked up to characters like Daria from MTV. I always wanted combat boots, crazy colored hair, and baggy ass Tripp pants with chains. I always wanted to be unabashedly me. But I find myself constantly hating feminine women for having society's love, approval, and attention. Hating them for making the effort to make themselves seen by society, and thus having power within it. It is petty. It is childish. I want to dress like a sloppy poor dude and still be seen as beautifully feminine. But that isnt how it works. I am glad to be me, but I see the trade off in personal comfort vs social standing. I feel like this video wasnt meant for cis girls like me. But it really resonates with me. Thanks for this, Nat. I don't know exactly how this video makes me feel. And I kinda like that

[@guilhermemb11]

it's always nice to read interesting comments like this about a different perspective :)

[@EqualRightsAdvocate]

I used to watch your videos a few years ago, think you'll go back?

[@grantadamson3478]

HeartSongPony As a heterosexual male I feel that I have been guilty at times of judging people based purely on aesthetics. It's extremely difficult not to be this way but I do try and that's why I'm here, to get a better perspective and stop reading a book solely by it's cover. Thankfully I live in NZ where most people here are less judgmental and perhaps more philosophical in their approach to others. I wish you good luck for your future and hope that your society learns to treat you justly.

[@IizUname]

As a male, I know women and men treat me better when I dress nicely. Consider it may also be outside gender and actually be that people are generally shitty.

[@IizUname]

And shallow

[@representationmetaphorique]

“The left will abide a regal queer.”

[@treeaboo]

She's not wrong

[@azukizukisan]

"a regal queer" is who I want to be when I'm, like, old and grey-haired.

[@ghostfrequencies]

make this into a t-shirt honestly

[@robertsmith6308]

Thus was spoken, so shall be done

[@shami5enwow]

I'm not trans, but I'm mixed race and have found throughout life that things like the race of the person next to me, what my hair color is dyed, what I'm wearing, the food I'm eating, or what language I can speak influences peoples' racial and cultural perception of me. You're not just dealing with general and societal perspectives and expectations either, but personal and individual ones as well. I completely agree that things in general boil down to just aesthetic.

[@margaritam.9118]

dzsm239 Yes, in post-colonial countries (except racist one blood drop rule US) social class, education and habits can be used as a leverage to make society treat you better. For example I remember a debate on Fox News where the anchor was talking about drug dealers and randomly said to the person he was talking to “you look like one by the way”. My jaw dropped. It was a man with a PhD in an expensive suit. He was treated like trash only because he was black. No one would say anything like that to a person of his education and upbringing in Europe or Latin America, for example.

[@fabraxas]

Justine describes the world as it IS: we live in an age of spectacle, the world isn’t fair, men are the ultimate judges of womanhood and we must perform accordingly to be valued. Tabby describes the world as it OUGHT TO BE: Everyone deserves acceptance for who they are. Now we need to choose under which worldview we want to opperate: Do I try to survive in the status quo or do I challenge these expectations, but maybe at some personal costs... (and maybe without even making any difference in the end)? But it nobody is brave enough to challange the status quo, then things will never get better...

[@drakehickox6578]

can we say that nothing will get better? I don't think Justine's argument is that we should just cut our losses and accept the world as it is ( a shit-show,) I think her argument also includes an aspect of playing a long con. In essence, I think she's saying that if you want to change an aspect of the world or society, you first have to have a place of value in it, and in this case a woman of any type (but especially trans women,) can only attain value from acting or performing like society's idea of a perfect cis woman; whereas Tabby's argument is more about the value inherent to our own personal truths.

[@TheThirdRail]

The right answer is actually in Natalie's video on the Alt-Right. She mentions the fascists dropping large ethnic cleansing in exchange for incremental goals that hurt minorities but are too small to be seen as fascist by the general population (like immigration laws and the war on drugs). She then goes on to say that this is an intelligent and logical method that she WISHES was more common on the left. I'm pretty sure Natalie would want us as a community/movement to organize and focus on small goals instead of dreamy ideals; with the end goal of improving life for LGBTQ people over the course of 20 years in a process that's gradual enough that doesn't scare the straights away.

[@mikelmontoya2965]

I'd also say that this whole conversation is in the context of how to become a more influencial political public figure. I don't think that even Justine (if she existed) would give this kind of advice to an anonymous person. That would more like a Tiffany-Tumbles thing to do. Justine's point is that in politics what matters the most is aesthetics, and I kinda agree with that. But I also think she's wrong about equating good aesthetics with conforming to the norm as much as possible. Sometimes challenging the norm is a very powerful aesthetics, it just has to be done in a very appealing way. And I also kinda agree with her on that, in the case of women, and even more in the case of trans women or women of color, being appealing requires femming up a little. But look at Tabby the second time she does the catwalk (literally) model thing. She's really appealing even still being a trans anarcho-communist catgirl with a violent tendencies, she only had to put the high-heels on and try to be sexy in order for it to work out. But then again, Tabby states that she will never do that again because she doesn't feel like herself doing that, but like a "second-rate Justine". And I think it's true that for some women, trans or cis, this is true; femininity just isn't their thing at all. And for political public figures in that situation, well, I think they have to choose between playing a role in which they don't feel fully comfortable, finding a way to improve their aesthetics but without becoming less butch, accept as they aren't willing to change much they'll probably never gather much influence or reach a really big audience or finding a new job or hobby which doesn't require them to expose themselves to the scrutiny of a mainly alienated public.

[@mikelmontoya2965]

But honestly I think a lot of people are forgetting that this is more a conversation about how to have a powerful aesthetic in order to amplify your political power and not about what anonymous trans people just living their anonymous normal trans lives should do.

[@caturdaynite7217]

I decided to do what was right for me. And I got swell partner, because I did. She wears combat boots. Oh, I love her so.

[@JontyLevine]

16:10 "In case you haven't noticed, I'm weird. I'm a weirdo. I don't pass. I don't _want_ to pass. Have you ever seen me without these stupid cat ears? That's weird."

[@fruitygarlic3601]

I'm just a struggling catgirl from the wrong side of the political compass, and you're just the t-girl next door.

[@samjaymac]

Waking up to a new Contrapoints video is the best. ““Do not under any circumstances imitate cis women. They have no idea what they’re doing.” “Your hands are not tools. They are ornaments at the ends of your arms.”

[@Melissa-tw2gp]

“Oh don’t be a woman; that’s not a good idea.” Such a great line.

[@giuliosuprig]

This struggle of butchy trans women vs passing trans women reminds me a lot of the conflict between femme or masc gays and how other people perceive us. A lot of ppl used to hate the femmes because it brought up shame, and they used political aesthetics to justify it. It was also what made the community so transphobic and body shamey. Still, that whole debate died down without a resolution, because ultimately we are all in the same community. With enough time and acceptance, one trans person appearing more or less femme stops meaning that all trans women are this or that way. ... what i really mean to say, is that with enough time, justine and tabby are gonna bang, and im hoping the bat will be incorporated somehow.

[@corneliahanimann2173]

I get this. I'm not struggling with your issues, but I get what is causing you trouble. The problem is that you don't exist in everyone's world, some peopld just refuse that you get that right and trying to convince someone who is not open to the idea of other people being different from them is impossible. Even with me, I feel like you can exist, I'm open to the idea of you and eventhough I don't walk in your shoes and experience your problems, I feel lile you have the right to be happy and if that means I have to adapt my way of thinking a bit, then I'm good, that's really not that mich asked for for someone to feel valid in our world. It's just not that usual for society yet.

[@DemiBirdDoes]

It's the basis of my gay-lesbian solidarity with my best friend. We have lots in common that way in spite of and perhaps because of how different we are.

[@wpbn5613]

Tabby is dating Adria from the Tiffany video lol

[@SeiNaah]

This hit way too close to home. I can go to my local gaming store for some magic the gathering wearing a see through shirt with a black lace bralette and a long black skirt, wearing a full face of some of the best make-up I can pull off, but if it's not completely on point, or if my voice is slightly too deep, I still get misgendered. Even by people who've just met me. And I can correct them but they still do it. My biggest fear is that I'll neither become good enough at playing the part nor find the will to accept me for who I am, flaws and all.

[@twigwigsoso]

SeiNaah you are vaild, I'm sorry things are tough right now. I hope people start respecting you as the women you are

[@dat1bitch-]

I feel for you girl. I'm one of those newer pre hrt trans girls. I just got called a man a few minutes ago, by the the gay leader of my schools lgbtq group! Life is hard.. .

[@soulflaya2271]

There’s a trans woman at my local game store! She isn’t super femme, so not everybody uses “she” pronouns for her. I don’t particularly care for her (I think she’s a bit overexcited and annoying) but I still correct people and try to use she pronouns. I realize that the whole “NOT ALL MEN-“ argument is tacky but, uhm, not all men? I’m just trying to say that there’s at least one person out there that at least tries!

[@erikbarrett85]

All persons feel this way, I can assure you. That might help, if you believe it. Which...I do, and...it's helped. Also announcing your fears is ALWAYS beneficial. Even anonymously...

[@tesseractive4567]

I guess I'm spoiled out here in Seattle. We don't tolerate that shit, in our FLGSs or elsewhere. The game store I frequent has a goddamn rainbow flag in the window.

[@senshiiboy]

i constantly have anxiety about what it means to be a gay trans-man. about what it means to pass as male but still be myself. i was really feeling tabby's part of the video in my own way. i like feminine things but to a lot of people that invalidates my gender and theres an almost constant need to hide behind the mask of my sexuality because cis gay men are excluded in that right. justine is right though. what works for cis people is definitely not always going to work for trans people. at the end of the day i have to remind myself that there are people who think im valid. my boyfriend loves me and i cant spend all my time trying to please cis people because then id be here for an eternity. good to see both sides of the argument in a comprehensive way- amazing video as always, natalie ❤️❤️

[@kiradeki3561]

I am also a gay trans-man, and my ability to pass is literally nothing...people invalidate me all the time...it really hurts, but....I'm trying so hard to find a way to pass enough and yet still keep my ideal choice in clothing and behavior for myself. :/ It's good to know I'm not literally alone in this.

[@fapsam]

+Kiradeki Do you think lying to people will win you any favors?

[@SolluxAmpora]

I feel this so much. I am a trans man that is POC and get hella invalidated. I am not gay. I rarely date men but I feel you. I'm pansexual and whenever my partners that I decide to go public with change, my sexuality is assumed to have changed with them. I do find myself envious of how much White trans boys get attention and can do so much more than we can without nearly as much ridicule. We all have it hard but I can't shake the feeling that White boys are more fawned over and encouraged and accepted. I like that you are a feminine trans man. So am I. Some days I feel like I'm just a cis person in denial because of how feminine I am.

[@discordant8543]

"We talk about : sadness Fascism Sexual deviation Cults" So we mostly talk about sadness then 🤔

[@EU-op3db]

And fear. We talk about fear.

[@stonecat676]

Well, too much sadness and fear will obviously bring you to madness so no need to include that.

[@T1J]

holy shit that blaire white/ben shapiro clip. so cringe

[@TheIntenseLime]

Literally every clip with Shapiro or Blaire is cringe

[@kittyythecat]

Oh wow!! This is the first time I've seen T1J comment on another KZbinr's video. Not that it's bad but I hope you have a good day!! This KZbin channel and yours are amazing!

[@joeyrufo]

Yeah. And the look on her face says so much! 👀

[@MichaelJimenez416]

T1J I sent you a cringe email about Veganism back in the day. I'm sorry for that. I was young and inarticulate and confused. Yet, I am still Vegan, and would still encourage it, but I have always been embarrassed about sending that.

[@soniFloatingAbout]

It was actually heartwrenching for me the way it was set up. Genuinely felt sad.

[@theomotta2119]

I'm going to cite this in my thesis "In history there are ages of reason and ages of spectacle. Our century is not ancient Athens, it's Rome. And the problem is, you think you're in the forum, but you're actually in the circus." -ContraPoints, 2018

[@hyperchica]

I want to be in an age of reason, damn it :(

[@theomotta2119]

I wonder if it is as painful for a magician/acrobat/clown to be at the Lyceum as it is painful for a philosopher/scientist to be at the Circus...

[@steliosmitr8245]

if you are talking about the actual Lyceum then a magician/acrobat/clown would probably be accepted and analysed by the students. A philosopher and scientist isnt actually accepted at the Circus because he doesnt blur in the 'fun'

[@joycelinlgbtq]

What's the thesis about?

[@onlinepersona99]

this is guy debord

[@rdfm1549]

I think the point here is how it can feel to trans women that “winning” is... impossible? Am I getting that right? It certainly feels like the argument must be exhausting to have both with others and with one’s own self. I mean, I’m not even trans and my head hurts after watching this. I can imagine how it must feel to be trans and feel all of this.

[@SantaFishes101]

There is no simple "winning" in any complex debate.

[@rdfm1549]

Canalave Maiden [plz look at my playlists thnx] that’s not at all what I meant lol The debate isn’t the point the acceptance is.

[@mereiam]

“The 21st century is an aesthetic century. In history there are ages of reason and ages of Spectacle. It is important to know which one you’re in. Our America, our internet is not ancient Athens it’s Rome. The problem is you think you’re in a forum but really you’re in a circus. (....) Reason is a very powerful aesthetic- if you are a man.” I feel like that summarizes my struggle as a teen with myself and society

[@pukofthewilds9000]

Not that many of you would care, but for those that might i would just like you all to know i am a 25 year old cis white male. as i get older i start to really understand what white privilege is. and the more of this i come to understand the more compassionate i become. i was very perplexed by transgenderism for quite awhile. i guess i still am a bit because i will never truly be able to understand it. i guess what i am really trying to say is thank you Contrapoints. i discovered you about three weeks ago after posting a quote by Jordan "Daddy" Peterson on facebook and one of my trans friends told me about you. you have enlightened me is so many ways. stay strong out there everyone. im rooting for you all. one day we will know peace.

[@amacuro]

Compassion is the key to understanding the concept of "privilege". It's so sad to see so many people lacking compassion towards fellow human beings who are in much worse position than them. Unfortunately, probably the best way to learn compassion is to have a rough life which means the most privileged people will never feel compassion.

[@harrypotter1o1]

"Do not under any circumstances imitate cis-women. They have no idea what they're doing" -I feel this so hard

[@memyerschao9562]

watching old vids cause i have the biggest crush on tabby

[@anaiglesias9972]

Me too

[@awildnuisanceappears2784]

School assignments? You mean to say I ought to give up my time to entertain the social activities of mere mortals? Fools. Contrapoints has uploaded.

[@SP3CTR0L1T3]

"You're born naked, the rest is drag." A quote from some of the great philosophers, RuPaul and Alaska Thunderfuck 5000.

[@entr3_nou5]

“I thought we were talking about philosophy!” “No. We’re talking about shoes.” Idk why but I liked that line

[@hiZarki]

that sure was a deep philosophical piece of dialogue to me!

[@taylorbritt499]

It reminded me of that old KZbin video "Shoes". Please tell me yall know what I'm talking about.

[@chaoticfroggy867]

every contrapoint video i see confuses the living hell out of me in a good way there are so many points to be discussed and she keeps switching around through points and i love it it shows every side of an issue

[@JesseColton]

Justine: "Tabby, why couldn't you have stayed calm for once? Instead of flying off the handle! I hope you're happy. I hope you're happy now. I hope you're happy how you've hurt your cause forever, I hope you think you're clever." Tabby: "I hope you're happy! I hope you're happy too. I hope you're proud how you would grovel in submission, to feed your own ambition!"

[@renegadecut9875]

you win the comments

[@LarrySonOfMilton]

but literally. i always saw Wicked as the journey and friendship of a radical and a centrist.

[@freddie.spaghetti]

this is a very interesting video. i love how contrapoints doesn’t just tell people what to think or present one argument as objective truth, but instead has a nuanced, insightful debate with herself lol

[@stanj85]

Too Real Contra, too real. Watching insecure men engage in performative masculinity to absolutely make sure everyone thinks they're straight is always sad. But if your thesis is correct then we are all just acting out these roles. Some better and more convincing than others... PS Awesome editing here!

[@rumpelstilzchen9876]

As in "Look at me. Behold my hobo beard. I am ultra masculine. A bread scientist, not a woman." -Roosh

[@mirmalchik]

+User Name Redacted there's nothing wrong with behaving masculine in ways that feel natural for you but if you're not aware of the ways in which you learn to *act* more masculine than would otherwise feel natural for you, you're going to end up controlled by the social norm of the ideal man. your muscles will never be big enough, your emotions will never be muted enough, your libido will never be uncontrollable enough, etc. it's bad for you and for the rest of us, because you end up dissatisfied with your own masculinity and you end up doing shitty things to yourself and other people in your desperation to live up to the ideals established by tradition and myth. be yourself, and accept that your self is not "the ideal man." that's really all we're saying here. Same goes for the unfortunately branded phrase "toxic masculinity."

[@BolshevikMuppet]

stanj85 On the most basic level, everyone (including the most “OMG I hate P.C. culture and speak my mind” spewing asshole) acts in such a way as to feel like they’re being seen by others as the kind of person they want to be seen as. The ability to hide the strings of that (appearing as “authentic”, by which I mean “consistent”) has basically replaces religion as our public morality. Think of how many times you’ve heard about a politician (from Ron Paul to Trump) “well I disagree with him, but at least you know where he stands.” Being consistently (authentically) a bad person is seen as superior to being inauthentically a good person.

[@helemaalnicks6215]

Nobody said that you're not allowed to act masculine or like a man. Why do some always feel the need to put up strawmen? OP was referring to specific situations and acting masculine with a specific intent.

[@mordenkainen88]

@@caseychapman5726 Are you here to actually engage, or just fruitlessly troll straw men?

[@peterciurea7771]

I stumbled on your channel, as KZbin was auto-playing in the background. I am a plain vanilla conservative, who finds the trans debate a puerile distraction applicable to 0.001% of the population at best.Yet i must admit this is the first time i can think of where witty dialog over a subject i have no interest in kept me fully riveted and entertained. I subbed and listened to some of your others. You have a great talent for dialogue. It is genuinely funny, and you seem to have a knack for tackling radical or toxic topics critically without being inflammatory. It feels like a post structural critique of post structuralism. Given your fluency in post-modern terminology and authors, i am forced to admit you have a genuine education in the area, but your take on it reminds me of a current day Sokal-like sendup. I also listened to your piece on attempting to be a writer and realizing that just being able to appreciate great lit does not necessarily lend itself to writing it (a reality i had to face myself) . So I felt compelled to leave a comment and tell you that your talent may simply be a product of the modern day, and rather than wasting your time on the written word and it's associated diminishing audience, you should continue doing this. I do not doubt you will find growing success here. I'd love to see you debate some of the conservative KZbin folks like Crowder, Shapiro or even D'Souza.....and of course Milo. I wish you well.

[@2nd3rd1st]

Hey, Peter. I don't know if Natalie reads this far down into the comments, I'm just leaving this to say that I read yours and that I think it deserves more attention than it did so far. It's very fair and open. Always nice to read the position of a "non-traditional" Contra viewer.

[@cetochtlisofunny523]

^^ das right, perfectly worded Peter, she definitely should read this

[@homosap2001]

Peter though Natalie creates debates, via her characters, that are both entertaining and informative, I'm not sure that it is a medium that lends itself to progress when it's purely adversarial. I've seen debates/arguments from all of your suggestions and feel pretty safe in one conclusion, they'll all hold pretty much any opinion if the money's right. I get no real sense of conviction but rather an overwhelming feeling of self promotion and the desire to win the debate. The left has their champagne socialists and they're just the same sort of thing from the right. But this is an actual struggle from a minority group to be recognised as equal human beings on their own terms. In some instances I don't doubt that it is literally a life and death struggle. Wanting to see any of them face off against professional(in the case of D'Souza I use that term very loosely) debaters/agitators definitely falls into the circus/arena rather than the forum. I don't for a second think that your suggestion was meant in this manner but I can't see any way that wouldn't be the way it would end up.

[@ErwinPommel]

Your estimation of how many people this affects is off by multiple orders of magnitude. But does it really matter how small the group is if they're being systematically targeted by political groups and governments, and routinely being physically attacked, and murdered? If a system of thought leads to just one person being tortured to death by people who believe it, that's a thought system that should be strongly challenged. And sadly, the number is far more than one.

[@andulul]

I like comments like yours.

[@AvatarDesTopfes]

When ContraPoints uploads, a hundred altrighters weep in agony and fear

[@AvatarDesTopfes]

I'm from Germany/Austria, the situation here is different. You are right we always have to engage the right wing, but feminism/genderpolitics aren't any issue of public discussion here, or at least very obscure. Also violence from both sides isn't instrumented that much, of which an example for left violence would be Hamburg burning at the G20, and for right wing... the usual stuff, just with more roman salutes.

[@malhekai]

Tabby takes shit from no one, respect.

[@desrepeerc206]

"Sometimes being yourself is not enough. Sometimes you have to become yourself." I love this quote.

[@CenuPwny]

that conversation was depressing. i always had conversations in my mind like this and it always hurt. it hurt until i had the idea that gender and orientation and the identities around them are tendencies, not written laws. nobody has to be a perfect gay, a perfect lesbian, or a perfect trans woman. nobody has to be perfectly straight or cis. and i found something out of those conversations that i like. and i'm posting it here

[@NightfallGemini]

and in fact, the arguments that "gold stars" for lack of a better term are the only ones that count are absurdly bigoted and rooted in self-hatred and extreme self-policing on some level. pure projection of insecurities, essentially.

[@Eve.v]

still one of my favorite videos to just have going in the background and absorb. the ending makes it so clear that both characters are secure in their beliefs because they can back it up with reasoning and not compromise, and the fact that this is written and acted by ONE person, voicing and exploring her own inner struggle, makes the resolution that "there doesn't need to be a logical winner here" all the more satisfying. it's reassuring to see how such contra(zing!)dictory thoughts can exist in a person's head and it's always fascinating to hear her explore questions of society and gender when her thought process (the questions she asks, the way she is informed by the experiences she's had ~ as a Trans Woman ~) comes from a very different place with regards to gender than mine, as a, well, as an ✨ afab nonbinary person 💃 one thing i really love about consuming almost every contrapoints video regularly is that i've noticed as her videos go on, i tend to agree with her takes more and more with regards to "progressive gender takes," for lack of better phrasing. and it's really cool (though sometimes depressing) to remember how much examination and consideration she puts into every single thought she has (sis got that mento illness). but her videos also ALWAYS give me a new way of thinking about things, too. and i know that her thoughts and positions are well-thought-out and well-informed, even if i disagree, wholly or partly, with the conclusions she might draw from it. i dunno, it's just really admirable to watch her disect her own inner struggles as opposing extremes through a dialect that she then shares with millions of people. it's neat. and i appreciate that i can have this as background noise for chores :)

[@benbanta2913]

Why do I always agree with Tabby? Am I to wrapped up in theory? Or has times changed since these videos came out and we are more in a revolutionary state?

[@sorryifoldcomment8596]

I assumed that everyone agrees with Tabby and that it SHOULD be okay. But, current reality sucks and is not fair. (Well, leaving out the unprovoked violence lol.) It shouldn't matter what she wears. In a better society there wouldn't be an argument. But unfortunately, the consequences of her actions go beyond just her personal safety and there is an argument to be made that risking bad optics risks turning people against transgender folk. Except in a better place...there wouldn't be any people left like Ben Shapiro, who are fighting, who have to be convinced by a transwoman passing and begged to see them as human beings that deserve respect. That's how I always took it though...Tabby is right, they are arguing how much it matters how right Tabby is haha. But, I came in as a humanist with the bias of already being an ally and on Tabby's side lol. I do acknowledge that Tabby should not be on TV and doing debates with right wingers who have their bias already...not until they stop looking for any excuse to violate human rights.

[@samlogan-warshaw300]

@@sorryifoldcomment8596 yeah just roll over for the oppressor that'll work greaaaat.

[@VelvetCondoms]

Because Tabby is supposed to be an idealist and the ideal of a good person, and Justine is a pragmatist in our turdbox of a world. Ultimately, both have valid points, and both are required.

[@mackenziekarsonovich1073]

When I first watched this, I never understood why Tabby was constantly misgendered because Tabby still looks like a girl to me. There are all different kinds of pretty out there, even the kitty kind.

[@viv4916]

So, one thing I really admire about Natalie is how she really doesn't give the audience an argument all chewed up for easy consumption. She lets you make up your own mind by presenting the complexities at hand. Often, she admits that she doesn't have the answer to the issue she is presenting. That's admirable and very humble. The best creators are those who invite the spectator inside the creative process. Thank you, Natalie.

[@julia.24]

i am a cis lesbian and this a video that seems pretty intracommunity, but i want to say that, at least for me, i think womanhood is a trap for everyone involved. the efforts required to be "successfully" feminine are beyond me. i can see every day what other women are doing that i am not, and it looks effortless and alluring and often attractive, and i'm torn between being happy for them and this yearning to perform femininity to that extent. i'm definitely not gnc, but i feel as though i'm failing to be "good" at being feminine. there are certain feminine trappings for every kind of style from the ultra femme glam makeup efforts to the "i rolled out of bed with sweatpants" and i don't feel as though i fit into any of them well. i just feel fat and ugly and although i would like to be more "successfully" feminine, focusing on my features long enough to put on makeup or try on close just makes me hate myself even more and feeds my dysmorphia. it's a constant thing i deal with and while i do feel as though i'm a woman, i don't fit comfortable in nonbinary conceptions of identity, and i'm definitely not a trans guy, i just... feel like a failed woman. and i feel like it all the time. i don't know if it's relevant but it's true, and i think it's the result of womanhood as a social category emphasizing the aesthetics of women's appearances. it's a struggle every day.

[@bitchimgayasfuck171]

Im a cis lesbian too and I feel the exact same way. women (cis and trans) just cant win man

[@luisablack647]

I'm a bi lady and I feel this so hard. I went thru a long time of questioning whether I was a transman or GNC because I just feel so.. not womanly. But I truly WANT to be feminine, I'm just not. Failed woman is the perfect way of putting it. Solidarity

[@tohrunkimi]

god I feel this. wearing makeup feels like putting lipstick on a frog to me

[@seallofapproval]

Oh god I feel this so much. I can't imagine what trans women go through when as a cis woman this is so intense. Society has taught us that girls only exist to be pretty and because I'm just not, I feel like a failed woman. I started doing things to distance myself from feminity. As a kid as soon I clocked I wasn't pretty I became a tomboy and now present as fairly androgonously. I almost feel lucky that I'm a lesbian because society teaches gives us less of an overwhelming pressure to look desirable to men. The fucked up thing is that it still exists, and I hate that I've always wanted to be one of those lesbians who makes men upset because they want them so much. The truth is I'd like to be more feminine, not because I want men's approval now - I've grown up a bit, but because traditional feminity has aspects to it that I'd like to uphold. Kind, nurturing, gentle, wise. But the pretty thing always gets in the way of me feeling like a real woman. Even tho I literally am. It's just too painful to try and be something I am and fail.

[@key37raminus]

Gender is made up. You are a person and people classify you however they want. If 'man' and 'woman' dont refer to genétics, they refer to made up ideals you dont have to live up to.

[@jordansullivan5764]

I think an interesting point I'd like to add is that acceptance of trans people (but only if they pass), really serves to reinforce the gender binary. I've spent time on trans forums, and I personally feel that a lot of people who could arguably be genderfluid or non-conforming are overwhelming informed that the solution to all of their negative feelings is to transition. Only then can you join this community of people who have a set of extremely specific commonalities. Unfortunately this almost universally includes using depression/dysphoria/social anxiety as fodder for making friends. So if you end up feeling that you don't identify as a man or woman, you're faced with the choice of losing all of your friends: all of the suicide memes and universal encouragement toward one obvious answer. What I'm trying to say here is that it really hurts us as a society to only accept genderqueer people who fully commit to represent the epitome of the gender they're transitioning to.

[@Douglemagne]

Some of the social pressure by trans people on pre-trans people compelling them to transition is absolutely disgusting. Worse in many ways that forcing someone not to transition.... though the caveat is that there isn't proper terminology for the various phases and levels of transition. I refer primarily to HRT, Puberty blockers, and surgery. If you bully someone into wearing something gender non-conforming, you're a dick, but not on the level I am describing. I mean heavy peer pressure (especially from teens, but adults as well) to make permanent alterations to your body. Not okay. If you have even a shred of doubt, don't do it. Just be who and what you are. I've seen women pushing each other to get boob jobs and it's just as bad. People need to back the eff off each other and let them make their own decisions.

[@kapelski104]

The ending where they put their differences aside after seeing Ben Shapiro is so good and nice.

[@erodiumminer]

I understand the need for Justine, and how the whole «smashing» thing is bad optics, but every time I return to this video Tabby just makes me feel so much better. The bit at 16:00 moves me

[@mackeytries]

Welcome to womanhood: you will never be enough, ever.

[@TheRachaelLefler]

I hope she likes being gaslit and not taken seriously and not believed. Not even about big things like sexual assault or politics, I feel like women are just doubted every time they make a factual statement about anything, in a way that men making the same statements have such statements accepted as true because a man said it. Maybe we perceive a deeper voice as more authoritative or something. But it makes being female so depressing sometimes. "I bought you a shirt" "Well, actually honeycake, a shirt is defined as a..."

[@Kestra84]

Some of the most cherished memories of my adolescence were the few moments I was still taken as a boy, because after about 14, my body developed to the point that the comfortable androgyny of childhood became impossible. Instead, it designated me as a target of gendered harassment from friends and strangers alike. Even tho the fault, of course, was with them, not me, it was hard not to feel betrayed by my own body. I joked so often during my pregnancy that I would be mad if I had milk supply issues; having to carry those appendages around for nearly 20 years, I would have been pissed to discover they were strictly ornamental. But it wasn't a joke, I would have been legitimately angry and hurt if I hadn't at least been able to breast feed the way I wanted, after all the pain and difficulty those things had caused me since age 11. And now that I'm finally looking down the long slope of middle-aged womanhood, I begin to dare to hope that I can finally leave behind that kind of public humiliation. Women who are terrified of wrinkles and would do anything to cure them I find as simultaneously confounding and understandable as women who want breast augmentation.

[@alexvolkov223]

Enough for what? Enough for who? Essentially everyone feels like nothing they do is enough at times, except narsacists. You can't make everybody like you, regardless if you're a man or woman.

[@TheRachaelLefler]

Yeah Alex Volkov, I guess that's true. We also need to talk about how self-esteem and body issues can affect people of any gender.

[@realitydistortion3587]

And yeah, it sucks being a woman - in the real world. Let's not fetishize & over-glamorize make-up, pink dresses, nails, & ditsy attitudes. Stereotypes does not a woman make.

[@JohnBainbridge0]

"Colours! What the fuck are they?" This is why I love you. I mean... not really this... but also exactly this.

[@lavenderhuman]

I love how Tabby and Justine both have good points. Tabbys arguments are, to me, what most trans people want to do. It is unfair what Justine is saying to do, to be incredibly feminine to overcompensate. Tabby is the one being logical and rational but the modern world isn’t rational and doesn’t listen to valid arguments, it values outward appearances. So, if you want to be taken seriously by society (at least if you’re a public figure), it’s an unfortunate reality that you will likely have to in someway adapt to its expectations. It’s unfair but I definitely understand Justines points.

[@williamchamberlain2263]

Not just 'the modern world'; try to be outside the norms of non-modern societies would also get you rejected, sanctioned, or punished. Those norms might have been more permissive in some directions but they're always there.

[@NickNoobles]

@@williamchamberlain2263 true

[@tshred666]

The world only values outward appearance if you’re a woman. Men can gain respect even if they’re effeminate or ugly. I’m an ugly effeminate man and I still get other men to respect me.

[@platosrepublic6965]

Optics and content aren’t mutually exclusive. If you have optics but no message, you are really saying nothing. If you have content but no optics, it doesn’t matter what you say cause nobody will be listening. If you have both mastered... then that’s true power to make a difference, good or bad.

[@imnotdaredevil3714]

I mean that's kinda the point. Because the message here is 'all trans people are valid' and the optics is 'only conventional, docile and unclockable trans people are valid'. These two ideas are fine if you are a conventional, docile and unclockable trans person, but problematic if not. How do you master being both at the same time? Even the middle ground ends up with some kind of sacrifice- some measure of public acceptability or personal happiness. It's not a 3 option thing, its a broad spectrum where the precise difficulty is that its near impossible to identify, much less be at and of those three specific points.

[@russellk.4896]

If you have both mastered, you're Natalie Wynn.

[@jhoannefrancisco490]

Isnt that what she just presented in the vid?

[@cassandrabuitron427]

This and the Tiffany tumbles video are some of the most impressive writing, production, nuance, and emotional impact that I've ever seen on KZbin. Maybe any media platform. The shit is unironically canonical

[@johnwalker1058]

I personally apply the acorn and oak tree analogy to combining the sense that gender is identity and that gender is performance, especially in the context of a trans person's gender identity. On the one hand, you are recognized as being a certain gender depending on how you behave and express yourself and whichever gender more closely goes along with that in its associated characteristics. A trans person's gender as they are going through the motions of social transitioning to more effectively pass as the cisgender version of their gender is an oak tree. However, a person only performs a certain way because of how they identify in the first place. A trans person's gender when they are merely identifying themselves as their identified gender is an acorn. So while simply identifying as a certain gender, but without doing or expressing anything to reflect that identification isn't enough to be perceived as a certain gender, a person wouldn't just simply identify a certain way and leave it at that. They would also behave and express themselves a certain way to reflect the way they identify. An acorn by itself is not an oak tree; it needs to have soil, water, and sunlight to grow into an oak tree. However, you would never get an oak tree with all the soil, water, and sunlight in the world if you didn't already have an acorn to work with in the first place. Thus to me, the way someone acts as well as self-expresses and the way someone identifies are two sides of the same gender coin. You identify a certain way, then act and express yourself to reflect that, but you only ever act and express yourself a certain way to begin with because of how you identify in the first place. Gender is not strictly identification, and it is not strictly performative. Gender is the amalgam of self-identification and performance (both personal and social).

[@DreamDistraction]

There are two underlying factors that I believe are being neglected or glossed over in this discussion: genetic advantage and socio-economic privilege. Genetic makeup plays a big part in whether or not a person has attractive features (sure some aspects of attractiveness can be subjective, but let's be honest, there are definitely objective biological factors rooted in what we find attractive). So if you win the genetic lottery--so to speak--and have features that are in line with what is considered aesthetically pleasing (tall, slim/skinny, pleasant facial structure, healthy, etc.) then you will have a much better chance of being judged favorably and accepted by society, regardless of what gender you identify/present as. As for the economic factor, if you don't have the looks but you have wealth and privilege, you can use those resources to 'enhance' yourself in ways that help make up for whatever may be lacking. Of course, if you have both a genetic and economic advantage, then you have the means to forge your way in society without question. If you don't have that genetic or economic privilege, though, then you have a much more difficult time being accepted no matter what gender you consider yourself. Most truly passable trans women were lucky enough to have a running start with the ideal genetic material, and thus would be considered aesthetically pleasing as male or female (just look at before and after photos). Many of them also had the economic resources to not only follow through with an expensive transition process, but to also maintain their aesthetic on a constant basis. But people will gloss over this truth and instead choose to promote the false ideal of "you could have what I have, you just have to work for it". Well, many people don't have the naturally good looks, or the means to pay for expensive treatments and operations, or the never-ending supply of high-quality makeup needed to pull off a look at the level of what CP does in these videos. It is disingenuous to have such lofty debates on aesthetics and gender perception in society without acknowledging the under-lying realities of certain biological and socio-economic privileges, of which most people have little-to-no control over. FWIW: Despite this criticism, I thoroughly enjoyed the video and it addressed many points that have been bouncing around in my mind recently.

[@mycenaeangal9312]

I don’t know if they’re actually being glossed over, it’s just that like they don’t matter? That is to say power doesn’t actually care about your sob story as depressing as that is. Whether you’re hitting it in the face with a bat or convincing it by playing it’s game better than it can all that actually matters to it is how effective you are, at least in this context. Why you cannot achieve is irrelevant to most people sadly.

[@Humorless_Wokescold]

It most certainly does matter as Justine is arguing her methods will yield the most/best successes for the people Tabby is claiming to represent. But nothing about what Justine is arguing will lead to better life for the gender nonconforming or those deemed not "womanly" enough. Those trasn women of color will still die at roughly the same rate regardless of how many people Justine makes sympathetic to the trans experience. We went through this before with the gay community and AIDs. And again with the rise of the black middle class. Justine may look good and what she says sound compelling but it's all been tried before.

[@marinamagalhaes3812]

Contra, this is to me one of your absolute masterpieces. The dialogue format is so thoughtfully used it brings me joy from simply watching how differently one can phrase the debate - and how that affects directly its possible outcomes. Stunning work. You should do a video on psychoanalysis (a Lacan focused one would be amazing) and gender. Would love to watch that.

[@janahijazi5899]

i love tabby even more now.

[@unluckyone1655]

Me too

[@sunyavadin]

Tabby is so fucking real.

[@blackmoon2128]

the credits music are always nice.

[@UnseenBubby]

While this video is definitely more reflective of the transwomen community, the conflicting ideas of "looking the part" and "staying true to self" in aesthetics is applicable to most, if not all, walks of life. I am a cis man, and the conflict of aesthetics is something I struggle with often. I am an introvert, and I am more comfortable by myself or with a small group of friends than I am in large groups, unless alcohol is involved. I hate attending job fairs and networking with professionals in my field because I have to pretend something I'm not. Even if I were a prodigy in engineering, no one would take me seriously in a job fair if I came wearing a hoodie and sweatpants instead of a clean pressed suit. I have to take the time to work on my appearance, else I don't get a job where I want. The networking version of me is not a reflection of my true self, but I have to act in the way others want because that's what they will respond to. I understand that my experiences are not as dramatic as those in the trans community, and I doubt I can imagine the severity of the conflicts regarding ones experience they face. But this video really demonstrated that conflict in a way that resonated with my own personal issues, and I find that remarkable. Very rarely do I find KZbin content that speaks directly to my emotional conflicts. It certainly speaks to the remarkable writing and acting Contrapoints has in her videos when a conversation about shoes that is analogous to the struggles of the trans community can be also be a metaphor of a broader issue in the human condition, cis or trans, male or female, straight or queer, or whatever.

[@sheep1ewe]

Well said.

[@AliceSuhina]

The make up is so spot on. Damn you and all your videos look great! If anyone is to talk about aesthetics is the queen herself Edit: comment was made before I saw the video. Feel so ignorant now😆

[@preternatural3231]

every contrapoints video proves that contrapoints is the only one thoughtful enough to debate with contrapoints

[@tangledfish]

That or it proves that the only way to have a debate in 2018 that doesn't end in twitter callouts is to argue with yourself.

[@Nathouuuutheone]

@@tangledfish As long as the person doing it is honest enough to not misrepresent their "opponents" beliefs. It's a hard thing to do. When you think someone is wrong, you usually have a hard time expressing to others why that someone thinks that way and how it could maybe potentially be true.

[@maschaorsomething]

@@idontlikeyouyo Aren't you very original and edgy.

[@Wilker_uwu]

@@idontlikeyouyo where does mental illness fits in this? legit question, i'd like to listen

[@AmongstTheSoil]

@@idontlikeyouyo In other words, you speak nonsense

[@DaniloLuisFaria]

God, sometimes Natalie just hits right on the spot. "The 21st century is an aesthetic century. In history there are ages of reason and there are ages of spectacle, and it's important to know which you're in. Our America, our internet is not Ancient Athens. It's Rome. And your problem is you think you're in the forum when you're really in the circus".

[@dylanschnabel4859]

Danilo Luís Faria I literally just quoted that exact line for an essay in my dramatic lit class. It’s just such a brilliant insight

[@marcelleza]

Danilo Luís Faria are you Brazilian or Portuguese?

[@nathy0308]

I often wonder how historians will conceptualize the life and times we're living, but I can never come close to imagining it. I'm in this decade, in this century, and don't have the advantage of retrospect. But Natalie hit the nail on the fucking head here. THIS is how historians will talk about it: a century of spectacle. Performative being, as performative as it's ever been.

[@danilo.castelli]

Should we adapt or should be fight against this society of spectacle? I think Justine is more on the adapting end.

[@al43811]

Well, yeah. That has been the consensus for a good while now. History goes through periods of classicism and romanticism, and we are in the middle of a romantic era. At some point people will criticize the romanticism and their ideas will spread and that will be the start of a classical era

[@DeadlyTiger]

As a CIS woman, can confirm I have no idea what I am doing.

[@longassrice8756]

What is your profile pic

[@DeadlyTiger]

@@longassrice8756 It's from this anime called Naruto. Approximately 15 years ago I made a music video using clips from it and uploaded it to KZbin, and KZbin kinda just took a random screen capture from the video and made it my picture. I just never bothered to change it.

[@meredithr9824]

I hear ya.

[@tshred666]

DeadlyTiger the days of being a preteen weeb and making amv’s as a means of battling existential angst and depression. Takes me back

[@theinfantmetroid]

Ditto

[@szymonmajewski4725]

"Teenage gay boys on instagram. The only people with coherent vision of contemporary womanhood." - I literally bursted out laughing.

[@bijtmntongaf]

fuck they got me

[@craigmorrison5544]

I am a teenage gay boy on Instagram and I approve this message.

[@itamarolmert3549]

because it's true

[@josie3221]

i love natalie but that joke did offend me a bit ngl

[@josie3221]

@Talûn-karkû The Warchief relax, this is a channel about politics and social commentary after all. offense isn't a death sentence; it's part of the conversation.

[@stampede274]

Compromise: My combat boots have four inch heels.

[@EyeLean5280]

So does my kid's. It's a great look.

[@georgepatton1057]

In what situation are those boots fit for combat?

[@kudosbudo]

I read that wrong Lucky. I read heels as wheels. Now I want rollerblades. Not sure i can get away with that at my age.

[@georgepatton1057]

@@_blank-_ KURSK

[@mordenkainen88]

@@_blank-_ You know, your trolling attempt are pretty weak at this point. Again, go back to 4chan where things like you belong. You're missing out on all the CP threads.

[@mumemic]

"reason is a very powerful aesthetic if you're a man." "what if you're a woman?" "Oh, don't be a woman, that's not a good idea."

[@melmelhodgepodge3800]

Welcome to my Ted Talk.

[@sofiarubin8843]

Thats right, the most of the time if you look carefully it sucks

[@alfredbrown7537]

and the subtle detail of how right after she said that, catgirl burnt her tongue on the tea bc it was too hot 💁‍♀️☕

[@marguerite6520]

one of the most accurate to me things about women hood in the video.

[@SammyBirdTheGreat]

Sorry this is an old comment but I love ur bird

[@blake9221]

My boyfriend and I are starting a new tradition, Netflix and Chill except it's Contrapoints and Cuddles.

[@autdroid6078]

😘

[@caseyleenb]

get you a man's like that.

[@AbiCroCro]

I showed my bf a contrapoints video last night and watched him fall in love

[@andreblackaller3560]

Blake Moroney Guys my husband is a biggot lol, he’s a Republican Gay dude, he didn’t liked her

[@Moszan]

@@andreblackaller3560 Ouch.

[@danielallen3454]

"You think you're in the Fourm when you're actually in the Circus". My jaw dropped. You managed to actually managed to put the whole current society into an actual context!

[@kedamafoe2240]

we have an Orange skinned, small hand, cotton candy taupe wearing, president welcome to the carnival

[@Booba311]

I had to stop and think if it was faux-deep or literally one of the best summations of current times I've ever heard, and I'm leaning towards Natalie being one of the most important voices on this platform.

[@falconJB]

Part of the problem is also that so many people have gotten so use to being in the Circus that they don't recognize when they are in the Forum.

[@milascave2]

jB: yes, but also vise versa. People used to platforms for rational discourse have trouble when they find that they are actually the clown on the carny dunking tank.

[@TheProfet24]

"Internet bloodsports" as Jim put it

[@1scatterbrainednerd]

Cut to 20 yrs from now, when philosophy students are studying Contrapoints alongside their Socratic dialogues

[@michaelcreer6488]

Haha god I hope so, I kept thinking about the Decay of Lying watching this!

[@jcettison]

I came to this video as an assignment for a debate class at the University of Pittsburgh. Last week was Aristotle.

[@ttrenchmiranda]

this is the future I work for

[@3katfox]

I honestly hope that happens

[@princeofbohemia]

Contrapoints, What is Gender?

[@daneboe]

You are an absolute treasure, Natalie. ❤️

[@TheRantMaster53]

holy shit, didnt expect to see the annoying orange guy here

[@americossack3870]

Damn, one of my favorite youtubers from 2010 commenting under a video by one of my favorite youtubers in 2018.

[@xToony]

Fucking annoying orange guy is a contrapoints fan?? Oh my god

[@1234q-q8x]

@@xToony It is a bit unexpected but pretty cool.

[@biggainallbran8937]

Dane Boe You know what shouldn’t be treasured? Natalie overexposing some shots in her videos. Also some time she brings the lights too close to her face and it totally ruins the lighting scheme by drowning out her skin tones. To be honest, as far as greatest flaws go, it’s not too bad, but it is annoying.

[@Junebug89]

"You're so bougie" "I'm not the one quoting German philosophers from memory" The eternal struggle of the communist lol

[@malteborgmanm2626]

The struggle is that people equate education with the bourgeoisie. Luckily that's not the case everywhere anymore.(they correlate somewhat to much though)

[@ReddoFreddo]

@@malteborgmanm2626 Flaunting how many books from 19th century white upper middle class men you've read is pretty bourgie.

[@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick]

Kolzi Can confirm.

[@emmamorris6577]

@@ReddoFreddo that wasn't flaunting, it was relevant to the argument and added to the discussion; surely one can use privilege constructively without "flaunting", do male feminists "flaunt" their privilege when they use it to give marginalised women a platform?

[@Jekyllstein_Gray]

As an anarcho-socialist who has Percy Shelley's "Ozymandias" memorized by heart, I say oof.

[@theshocker929]

I started transitioning 6 years ago and I’m completely stealth now. So stealth my coworkers will say transphobic things and talk shit about trans people not knowing that they work with one. I feel sick to my stomach when it happens but I’m too scared to speak up. I don’t know why I’m telling you this. I guess I just feel guilty not being a good ally. Good video.

[@nelsonth]

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself. You are already brave for living your truth. Only you can judge how safe it is for you to speak out.

[@nikcile4034]

Wow those asshats can go eat my girl dick

[@petercarioscia9189]

Isn't that the point though? To be a woman, to live normally and to be so comfortable with yourself people are comfortable around you? Idk I had a thought and a point but I lost it. Maybe I'll come back this later. But a joke should just a joke. I'm a filthy centrist though. A terrible Ally that walks away when assholes say asshole shit and have guilty chuckles at off color jokes if they actually tickle my sense of humor

[@gristen]

nothing wrong with keeping yourself safe

[@mandoline5583]

you don't have to be a "good ally" you just need to survive and it's extremely hard. We, cis gender people, have to be good ally! WE can go on the street or at work with safety! You, survive! Please! Don't put yourself in danger. WE are safe, WE have to do the work. We have to defend you!

[@camdenkiefer]

justine speaks me: oh shit good point tabby responds me: oh shit good point

[@yeeclaw5976]

i honestly dont get why people are pissed at her for this. she never once said in the video that she truly believes all trans people have to "look the part", shes portraying this internal dialogue that she and many other trans people go through of them not being "trans enough" or "not passable enough"

[@Tentegen]

Um that was obvious. Hell its even in the title of the channel Contrapoints. Some people were actually too slow to get that shit?

[@katherinemorelle7115]

It’s a dialectic debate played out by characters. Natalie is not Justine. I mean, people understand that she doesn’t believe what she says as Abigail Cockbane- why would they suddenly think Justine is speaking what Natalie truly believes, or anymore that Tabby is speaking what Natalie believes. They’re all characters. Used to explore different views. That’s the point.

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

@@katherinemorelle7115 The CONTRA point! :D

[@Drunkenvalley]

@@katherinemorelle7115 To be honest people probably get hung up on it 'cause the character aesthetic and personality isn't exaggerated enough versus Natalie, causing confusion. But, eh, shit's hard to do right.

[@eve36368]

Sveinung Tørresdal that's actually a good way of putting it. dialectics & her essays already tends to favor performative interpretations. Also Justine basically advocates for toxic femininity which to be fair cis girls tend to be taught during puberty. So toxic gender roles are dysphoric & distressing no matter who you are. Would cis girls & cis boys basically reject being taught toxic femininity? The fact that it's toxic implies that you're more likely to be poisoned than you are to change it from within. So this is why "no one wins".

[@matthewsuttinger4179]

That was a good video and all, but I feel like I learned nothing about color.

[@PostScarcitytCat]

xD

[@theangryfinger5795]

But ya learned about spectrum.

[@djrocksgaming6255]

Fariman Math Needed to go over optics more. Get it? Who says that you can't make a physics joke in a philosophy video?

[@LeopardPrintZebras]

I'm a cis white woman and although it's not what Natalie is arguing here, I have a similar version of this internal debate all the time. Celebrating yourself and pushing for change vs. playing the game and practicing perfect femininity so I can play the role of the saboteur and have my voice heard once I've made myself seem credible by playing the game. I think everyone tries to find the balance between the two, in their own version.

[@PappyMandarine]

Except cis men.

[@zieteniere7500]

@@PappyMandarine No, they have to conform to what society expects of men, too.

[@PappyMandarine]

@@zieteniere7500 Sure, to some extent. But the thing is, society preemptively expects of men conformity AND anticonformity, if you see where I'm getting at. The idea is that an anticonformist cis woman (for example, among others) might be very harshly judged & punished... but an anticonformist man? Not so much; it's as if society knows and accepts that some men are bound to refuse to play the game.

[@oopsiepoopsie2898]

Nameless ! What are you talking about anti-conformist men are going to be very harshly judge just as much. You ever hear of Nicola Sacco, Bartolomeo Vanzetti, GG Allen, or all homosexual Cis men.

[@gent8940]

*saboteuse

[@scotchbox]

The most impressive thing about this piece is just how much lighting she has in her apartment.

[@Tobarius]

What you don't see is the liquid cooling station fighting to make sure none of the bulbs burn out during a shoot.

[@MK-oz2lf]

I feel like she has watched Nicholas Winding Refn films like Neon Demon or Drive

[@elsagrace3893]

SCOTCHBOX nope. The most amazing thing is her brain.

[@bookslug2919]

That's not lighting, that's her aura.

[@Nomin130]

I like to think that its always like that, even when she isnt making a video

[@JesusHChrist2000]

Ben Shapiro's hypocrisy annoys me. "Facts don't care about your feelings, but you should live your lives according to the Torah, because my religion says so".

[@superyoism]

Joe C silence nazi

[@kirstencorby8465]

Especially since conservatives lie and twist facts on the daily.

[@vwertix1662]

"Facts don't care about your feelings, but I do" -TransShapiro

[@Nopperabou]

Pretty big hole in his philosophy.

[@vitraartist2622]

Ben Shapiro is just a gay man way too far deep in the closet so he covers it up with the stupid shit he says and no one can convince me otherwise.

[@Demonskunk]

"I'm actually a lady who used to be a man, dressed as a man who is dressed as a lady" That pretty much set the tone for the video perfectly.

[@jackjoiner1595]

Did you just reinvent the Socratic dialogue for the age of KZbin? Because I think you did.

[@Trepanee]

except in contrapoints it isn't one clearly ~superior~ speaker convincing several strawpeople

[@ReasonableRadio]

(Sarcasm) lol Plato called tf out

[@boldandbrash8431]

Here nobody comes out looking good

[@wickedlee664]

Jack Joiner its all over youtube

[@jakebeardsley4935]

Lol she did that a while ago though

[@gabrielblanchard3921]

I honestly find Tabby incredibly heartwarming in this video. I didn't the first several times I watched it -- it just hit like a debate between two outlooks (and that's, as we know, praxis). But now, in 2020, there is something simultaneously sweet and empowering about seeing a person who knows perfectly well that others are going to find her identity and presentation ridiculous, and does not give them one single inch on account of that knowledge. Tabby's not always right, but I stan regardless.

[@sealogic4552]

That’s kinda the beauty of Tabby as a character. Her designs for combating capitalism and patriarchy may not be all that sophisticated, but by god, if half the modern American left was that sincere and motivated, we could really get a lot done. She’s a very get-shit-done model of activism.

[@tymera]

I really like tabby and I feel like her alot as a trans woman. I like boots and jackets and cats and masculine aesthetics but god damn Im still a women through and through. She inspires me even as a character because Im like her which feels cool :),

[@SorasShadow1]

I've seen some KZbinrs describe your content as overproduced meandering that says absolutely nothing of value but those people just don't seem to be listening. You're not dictating *to* us, like 98% of KZbin, we're just viewing a debate from the outside. Another fantastic, thought provoking video, thank you!

[@wanderingoryx3710]

It would be great if contra debated pink wig or sargon of jim wigs

[@revalisenai]

Unlike 99% of youtube 'intellictuals', ContraPoint's videos actually makes me think as well as being entertaining. Also love the music too.

[@SorasShadow1]

@nono meme how did my comment get 500+ likes. but yeah, that's it exactly, I was referring to youtubers who use 2d puppets for their personas, too so it's extra funny.

[@R0mbVs]

The people who say that are too scared to actually bother to analyze their fear and realize those fears are irrational. They can't listen. They dont bother to listen, or challenge their opinions. Sad that they can't see how truly enjoyable and thought provoking these videos are. Their loss.

[@underthecherrym00n]

nono meme wait, you mean that turning on your webcam and rambling about the sjws for exactly 10:01 isn't effort?

[@Peter]

we live in a society... of the spectacle

[@emmetlarrissy8228]

Hyper-reality.

[@TheModernHermeticist]

we live in a society

[@ZILtoid1991]

Spectacular gamers rise up!

[@TekSoda]

"Bottom Text" in cursive

[@mathieuleader8601]

everybody is an optican

[@stephenleblanc4677]

I think Natalie was maybe a little too subtle here in conveying how IMPOSSIBLE Justine's advice is to actually follow, but she's very clear about it. At 9:20 she says "you need to be so good at makeup that every cis women you know comes to you for advice" and 10 sec. later says "your hands are not tools, they're ornaments" This is impossible. I think Justine represents a part of the ideal that Natalie is pursuing in her transition, all the while Natalie is aware of the impossibility of anyone actually achieving this ideal. Nothing that Tabby says is ridiculous or self-contradictory or self-defeating. Most of what Justine says is self-defeating until she is finally corrected by Tabby. The subtitle of the Marquis De Sade novel Justine is "Virtue Is Its Own Reward." De Sade's Justine constantly aspires to be virtuous and constantly suffers for it and is never rewarded for it. This was all apparently too subtle for the critics who think Justine "won" the argument.

[@N-HTTi]

Hi

[@raem7846]

Unfortunately, trying to live up to an impossible and contradictory set of standards is EXACTLY what it means to be a woman.

[@osrevad]

@@raem7846 and at the same time exactly what it shouldn't mean to be a woman.

[@downsjmmyjones101]

Yeah, I used to think Justine won. Now I'm realizing that there's more to it.

[@arigadatred5395]

@@raem7846 Well, that's how the patriarchy establishes the parameters of womanhood. Women can work to define themselves, and should.

[@user-ru6nn1wu4b]

"Don't be a woman; that's not a good idea!" *burns self on tea that's too hot*

[@goldy496]

feeling really attacked rn

[@merna5685]

Person: How can I make a good visual for my video? ContraPoints: N!E!O!N! L!I!G!H!T!S!

[@GeoNeilUK]

IKEA light strips with the adjustable colours. Best two have two. At opposite sites. In conflicting colours...

[@KristofskiKabuki]

GeoNeilUK preferably bi colours

[@xenosbreed]

This episode hurt my head so much to think about, but it's real. It's a common joke among men to revoke someone's 'man card', like literally revoking someone's gender identity based on perceived identity that goes against the group.

[@travishabursky4362]

And its always self-imposed standards that result in the revocation of the man card. “Oh you shoot poorly” may not mean a thing to a lot of people, but to my family it means a great deal.

[@sheepperson8739]

i think this is your least cis-accessible video yet, and i was going to say i was a bit worried about it because of OPTICS!!!!.. i then realised how ironic what i was saying was and realised how necessary this content is haha. i came out years ago and am perceived as a fairly "safe" trans guy to cis people - in that i generally pass as male and arent too feminine. ive seen people change their minds because of me, just like justine says. and she's right, that is powerful. i also think it lead to years of being afraid of not aligning with mindless drivel written in ftm passing guides and posts on susan's place about why a shirt with flowers on it or some shit will make me a fake man; trans spaces where people like tabby weren't even considered vaguely legitimate. that isn't right, either. i'm not sure how to summarise my views on this video, i just want to say that i think it's one of my favourites. i'm not sure how many people will agree with that (i think if people do it'll mostly be other trans people lol), but i think it's got a lot to do with my being trans and growing up in trans spaces as a preteen and teenager on the internet. doubt you'll see this, but if you do, just know it really got me thinking. it's gross i still hear a voice in my head constantly telling me to be careful about what i say, how i look, what activities i do because of "optics" in trans activism. that, in itself, is fairly oppressive. this comment is a mess, have a nice day everyone!

[@thomasbarker2888]

Cis person finds this very accessible and loves it. Not contradicting. Just nodding happily; whilst still maintaining independence. Continue.

[@aliciadonadio2597]

I'm cis and I also think this is one of her best videos. I could also relate to the philosophical question it poses. It's just that this video looks at fairly universal questions with a looking glass on the perspective of a trans women so to say.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

Cis and loved it.

[@pythosdegothos6181]

" i also think it lead to years of being afraid of not aligning with mindless drivel written in ftm passing guides ..." These sorts of things are prevalent in all circles of life...and they are for the most part just some person pushing their own ideas on others. Look on You tube and you will see videos saying stuff like "these are things no male should ever wear." or "These are the styles men like to see women in." or other such garbage. I also cringe when I see the "how to look more feminine" by Crossdresser groups, or trans groups. Again it is playing to the whole idea that things have genders and that styles are inherently (hence biologically) of one sex. It is aggravating, especially for gender non conforming individuals like myself.

[@sheepperson8739]

agreed! but i think it's worth noting that in trans circles specifically these things were used as literal guides on transitioning, with little room for flexibility. like justine does here, it felt like we have a 'duty' to be as normative as possible in order for people to accept our existence as legitimate. it is absolutely bullshit, because you're right, none of these things are inherent about one's sex. EDIT: I'm also glad a lot of cis people are able to relate and find it accessible. its simply that these types of conversations are often seen as "DONT LET THE CIS SEE" which, of course, is part of optics too, and is being broken down with time. which is great.

[@T1J]

your hallway is narrow as hell

[@exnihilo415]

Plot twist: It literally is hell. Did you not see the souls tortured in there in this video?

[@oof-rr5nf]

What up T1J!? Nice to see you here.

[@danni69694]

4u

[@marileadufresne9092]

the only thing T1J could think of to say 😂

[@MoistCubicle]

Lol

[@angelinaanaconda105]

In 2015 I was borderline alt-right. Don’t ask- it’s a long story. Then I found Shoe0nhead and through her I found you. Now I’m a social democrat and trans ally doing my best to educate myself and be better. Don’t underestimate what you do. You change minds and hearts.

[@theshocker929]

Same kind of. I wasn’t alt right but I called myself a “classical liberal”. I still love shoeonhead but I left that anti-SJW camp a long time ago.

[@ryananderson861]

Is there a “found Nat through Shoe” club because same

[@giannabirrer779]

i just dont like shoe anymore i used to really love her videos but she just never really seems to think.....out of the shoebox.....i'll see myself out

[@deantethecouncilrevolution3468]

My non sectarian side: Glad to have you on the Left Me: WHY DID YOU MURDER ROSA LUXEMBOURG!!!!

[@Daniel-pg9qh]

Crazy to see so many people got to this transition. It's mostly the same period too (2015/16). My (borderline) alt right phase just had to do with puberty I think.

[@pwnedshift1]

Abigail Cockbane is the name of my next DnD character

[@mandoline5583]

Oh shit, just create my character, it would be so cool!!! I'll stole your idea for my next rpg session. Thanks so Much!!!

[@uniqueusername_]

Is she Chaotic Evil?

[@draco1811]

@@uniqueusername_ Probably more of a lawful evil, or maybe more of a templar...

[@citizeninsane8518]

Abigail Cockbane is what I call Abigail Shrier.

[@loopdiditydoop1926]

YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW LONG I’VE WAITED FOR A NEW VIDEO I HAD ALMOST HAD A CARDIAC ARREST WHEN I SAW THE NOTIFICATION

[@gamzee3610]

MOOOD

[@birbeyboop]

a month?

[@ChrisTuttlePlant]

So exciting ! !

[@Infernape102]

You might want to get that checked out.

[@MsLia32]

Can't vote this one up enough

[@ericakriner3244]

"In history, there are ages of reason and there are ages of spectacle, and it's important to know which you're in. Our America, our Internet, is not ancient Athens. It's Rome, and your problem is you think you're in the forum when really you're in the circus." This hit me out of nowhere and cut me real deep. I feel despair.

[@sajitaeria]

It was a dead-on analogy of the times that just shot out of left field. aptly shook

[@mordenkainen88]

This was the hardest lesson I ever learned, and the tragedy is that learning it only served to make me a more cynical and less idealistic person. I'm so bummed now. Damn it.

[@drewmarteny1495]

This is sad as I have no awareness of aesthetics of course I didn't develop a true theory of mind until kindergarten when I realized people where more than moving furniture so I probably am an outlier.

[@DiStUrBeDxNaTiOn]

Enjoy the decline

[@miskatonic_alumni]

Why feel despair, when the French Resistance kept fighting the fascist scum under far more depressing circumstances than these?

[@phantasmagore7991]

if pronouns really did refer to chromosomal sex then oh man do the french have some explaining to do

[@androdeiculus9712]

i dont get this help

[@silcrow4045]

@@androdeiculus9712 so many pronouns

[@sealogic4552]

@@silcrow4045 not to mention gendered nouns, adjectives, etc.

[@quadpad_music]

And the spanish-speaking as well, unless you can prove to me that the chair I am sitting on right now does, in fact, have XX chromosomes.

[@jayjaythejetplane5390]

Retro CreaTbJ I thought chair was “la silla”, meaning it would have to be proven that it’s a “she” and therefore XX chromosomes?

[@KristenNicoleYT]

I know that you don’t express your personal views with each thing you state in your videos as you play a variety of characters and perspectives. However in the case that you genuinely do think that you lost the debate to Blaire and that it was embarrassing I feel like I have to tell you that is not what happened. I found out about you through that debate, so it’s not like I was watching it biased towards you. I was cringing the entire time because I liked Blaire and wanted her to do well... and you made her look unprepared and unable to make an argument. You make a strong point that the aesthetics of the debate caused the number of people to dismiss what you had to say. However I feel compelled to say not everyone who watched it was only looking at how you look. A lot of us heard you out and still follow you now!

[@solospirit8742]

This was a really important comment.

[@KristenNicoleYT]

Takumi of Hoshido thank you!!

[@KristenNicoleYT]

Takumi of Hoshido I think Natalie has a really important perspective to share!

[@TyleRiemsma]

Natalie isn't saying Natalie lost the debate, Justine is saying Natalie lost the debate. Justine is the embodiment of Natalie's obsession with aesthetics, and as such it makes sense for her to think Natalie lost the debate. Tabby thought Natalie won the debate, even. I'd say the truth of Natalie's thoughts lie somewhere in the middle. She convinced some people with good arguments, but potentially "lost the argument" to some viewers because she looked like "an awkward dude in an anime wig".

[@DamnTheBeavers]

The difference of inteligence is clearly visible..i was also a fan of blaire's but she uses the same talking points over and over just scratching the surface because she is not well read and well inform enough..contra is on a whole other level, way higher, even though she is somehow biased sometimes