The Atheist Experience 26.49 with Forrest Valkai and Jmike

[@TheAtheistExperience]

00:00 Intro 02:50 Muhammad-CA | Naturalism's Views On Humanity's Uniqueness Are Dangerous 28:37 SoG-TX | Secularism Is A Form Of Faith 47:37 Brian-(CA) | What Is The Evidence Atheist's Are Looking For? 1:09:52 Mark-NY | Evidence Says It's More Probable God Exists 1:41:33 Outro

[@smochygrice465]

Thank--you time stamp person/s 🥰

[@pragmaticcrystal]

Much appreciated timestamps

[@uncle-epicurus]

Thank you but I typically just pop in the ol' ear buds and just let it roll!

[@jesuscenteno3564]

Qqq+

[@graffic13]

I sort of wish it was a Unicorn in the closet or a sweater demon...

[@Akira-jd2zr]

You can't beat this duo. Forrest brings the knowledge of science and JMike brings the knowledge of philosophy.

[@Spectrik]

Honestly this duo is kinda op in the atheist call in show meta I suggest we nerf them by cutting both of their intelligences in half

[@Akira-jd2zr]

@@Spectrik would still outclass the theists with half the intelligence

[@yippieskippy2971]

Truth 😏

[@dirkschmid1045]

Amanuel: I could write a book and say that this is god speaking. And yet Amanuel completely fails to realise that he has just completely made his entire belief system redundant with his very own words. This has been one of the greatest moments ever on AXP! That deserves to be in next week’s highlights clips.

[@Deris87]

It's a pretty good one, but it's certainly not the first time it's happened. They get people completely undermining their own position without realizing it fairly often. In fact I think you can even search "AXP greatest caller ever" and there's a video of basically the same thing from over 10 years ago.

[@danoliver3053]

It was definitely my favourite moment from this episode, mostly because of the reactions of JMike and Forrest when he said it 😂

[@AlexMorales-qi1yo]

@@Deris87 it says a lot about theists

[@creativewriter3887]

DUHHHHmanual is now just being allowed to call for comedic relief. He's been told repeatedly to call back every OTHER week.. now he's making the rounds like a bad case of herpes.

[@midnightmalice4501]

Yeah, I've seen something similar a bunch of times. The caller says out of their own mouth the exact thing they need to say, but completely miss the point. All he needs is like 5 seconds of realization that he literally said "anyone can write a book and say God is speaking" and apply that brief moment of clarity to their own book. Except, they usually don't. They just go back to, MINE IS TRUE CAUSE IT SAYS ITS TRUE. And all the people listening/watching see them ALMOST make the catch, but then it bounces off their hands, and they trip and fall on their face,

[@durrutti]

Mark: atheist has this misunderstanding that we put the cart before the horse… Also Mark: I start with the belief that god is real and then work my way from there

[@oggyoggy1299]

That was incredible. How don’t these callers see what they are saying?

[@FakingANerve]

@@oggyoggy1299 indoctrination is a helluva drug!

[@trevorlunn8442]

Also, every time Mark calls he leads with "I'm a skeptic" and then talks as if he is anything but.

[@Selcryn]

@@trevorlunn8442 That's because he's either lying (whether to us or himself or even both, can't get inside his head to take a look) or doesn't understand the meaning of "skeptic" and is getting it wrong.

[@wtfjesus8251]

@@FakingANerve 👍 U red my mind man! 😁

[@blur02]

When I listen to young people like Jmike and Forrest Valkai I gain a lot of hope for the future.

[@ShutUpWesley]

And then you remember Matt Powell and Ben Shapiro, and loose it all again. Or think: "Perfectly balanced, as all things should be" ;P

[@schwulemiculo6443]

Yes, critical thinking is alive and well.

[@franktheexpertstrenchclub9025]

@@ShutUpWesley I hope he doesn't think that the existence of pieces of dishonest, bigoted sh*t like Matt Powell, Matt Walsh, and Ben Shapiro provides some kind of balance to things because decent, rational, honest people exist. I definitely don't think people actively working to make the world a sh*ttier, more hateful place to live confers a necessary or "perfect" balance that's the way things should be... because good people exist. It seems more like they just demonstrably damage society and them not existing or not having any clout would just improve things.

[@brianfullbuster5648]

I think forrest is in his 30's but then again age is relative

[@Movies313]

Forrest is weak with arguments and use of evidence

[@bauken5315]

At this point, Roland the closet goblin has made so many "appearances" on this show that he deserves his own line of AXP merch!

[@happygoathorror]

I’d buy that merch 😂

[@RaulPerez-jj5jj]

I agree. 😂

[@smallestmikenike9261]

I would buy a Roland plushie

[@gullyfoyle3253]

We're building skyscrapers, you're in a vacant lot. Then you stand on our towers and shout that we're wrong . . . Terrific analogy, JMike!

[@brucemadge8147]

Sheep of God once again reliably demonstrating the God delusion. Well done, Sheepy, keep the entertainment coming!

[@LoveProWrestling]

Please no....there's gotta be a good call from an honest person every week getting missed because of this guy

[@user-ng9bl5lh3m]

@@LoveProWrestling No, your ratings really are that low. That's why they're begging people to call and getting 70 bucks when they set goals for $666.

[@user-ng9bl5lh3m]

So you're saying god doesn't exist and the question is so absurd that most of the human race suffers from a delusional psychosis? Is this because they won't support sx changes for kids? Or is it because they refuse to identify 70 genders or dress up like arse clowns? Is it because they refuse to admit to the observations of shit bumping around until it comes to life? or is it that they simply won't recognize the reality of talking monkeys?

[@petermeichan3160]

im sure there is a padded cell with his name on it somewhere

[@Pitts_not_Pitty]

@@petermeichan3160 and a man with a comically oversized butterfly net trying to get him back in said cell

[@genXstream]

Sheep: (gets really close to an actual realization to the nature of believing in what a book says) Forrest (Chad-like): (nails sheep to the wall with it, pointing out how Sheep doesn't apply his epistemology to his own belief) Sheep: Forrest. You're not listening. jesus christ

[@teuast]

welcome to the unending parade of pain that is talking to Amanuel from Texas

[@brandontankersley8107]

The terribly painful part of it is that he was never close to that realization. It's so clear to us but he just can't connect those dots that he drew in the first place. Amanuel is the perfect example of a caller that the hosts are using as a teaching tool instead of actually trying to get through to him.

[@DadsRUs]

I remember that Sheep guy from previous calls. He is so brainwashed to the point where he is terrified to even think about thinking that his god might not be real it is quite sad.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

He is thinking it though. And he is terrified. He may yet break free but the fear may hold him forever.

[@janglandis773]

@@kathryngeeslin9509 I agree. I think this fear is what does hold theists captive forever.

[@MST3Kfan1]

Forrest is a great host. Knowledgeable, logical, and entertaining. Great show as usual.

[@eljison]

JMike and Forrest complement each other with their different backgrounds, knowledge, and personas. Great combination.

[@niltonc.7333]

WOW !!! JMike gave a new testament teaching to Mark like a boss ... Mark please say thanks to JMike for the free lesson!

[@GTMarley]

I really appreciate JMike's knowledge of scripture with the historicity. I love that I learn something in every show/episode.

[@David34981]

@@GTMarley Are you Mark? If so please consider the absolute absurdity of starting with the conclusion and working back. "Instinctively feeling" something has no bearing on its truth. On the other hand, there is no indication whatsoever that it's even possible that a god could exist.

[@GTMarley]

@@David34981 Not sure what gave you that impression. I agree that is a cart before the horse approach. My comment was agreeing with the previous commenter and further stating how much I appreciate JMike's deep knowledge of the Bible and it's historicity. I only left the church about 7 years ago after >4 decades in their grip and my knowledge isn't that deep. Big JMike fan.

[@steveymoon]

Forrest and JMike are such an amazing combination. Thank you so much.

[@gretam3260]

Forrest you just nailed Brian when you ask him to apply the same principal to religion or anything else! Great line! Thank you for being on the show, love to listen to your arguments.

[@brandonman1315]

Watch Valkai labs, his channel is amazing!

[@hailsagan8886]

Faith is an unreliable path to truth

[@asagoldsmith3328]

Well I guess. Though I wouldn't call blindly throwing yourself off a cliff and hoping you land in a pile of truth a "path* of any kind

[@forever-raine]

@@lesbull1882 somebody is losing their mind. it is a factual statement that faith is an unreliable path to truth. i have known theists that argue otherwise, and fail.

[@forever-raine]

@@lesbull1882 so long as it's clear that people who have confidence because of faith don't know shit.

[@kaiza6467]

@@lesbull1882 except a very basic search will show you countless theists claiming that “all you need is faith to know something is true” or “faith is a path to truth”. 😂 YOU might not think so, in which case good for you, but your claim that there isn’t a single theist that claims faith is all you need is demonstrably false.

[@kaiza6467]

@@lesbull1882 not that I’d expect an obvious troll account to say something reasonable lmao 2 day old no content account

[@benblock9655]

Forrest's face when Muhammed says '"I follow Jordan Peterson" perfectly encapsulates how everyone should feel hearing Peterson's name 😬

[@nightlydrugs6927]

Lol right it was like 😐

[@hannajung7512]

As someone who grew up in a household full of Jungian's I will never get why ANYONE still takes it seriously, even less so when presented by someone like Peterson, who is basically wrong on every level, whenever he opens the mouth.

[@floorfan7987]

Uh Oh woke trigger words !!!!!!!!!!!!

[@johanvanderlinden4331]

Jordan Peterson is clearly an atheist, or more accurately, what Jordan Peterson says about God is that It is a useful fiction, which is indistinguishable from what atheists believe about God.

[@russellward4624]

@@johanvanderlinden4331 and he's vehemently anti Islam.

[@RancidAlic3]

I can finally come back to this show. Less fighting, more calm debate. That's what i like.

[@daroe2340]

Wow, forest, that question about “would you ever use this argument for any other thing in your life ever at all” is quite possibly the best religious Defeater I have ever heard in my life

[@jacobdad2742]

This was an excellent show, the two of you might be my favorite pair of hosts. Great work guys.

[@malemd]

And the supremely ironic thing is that Mark kept saying he's a skeptic and a rational human being

[@mikeyuskiw3477]

Triumph at 41:18 - the caller admitted anyone can write a book!! That was quite a moment right there.

[@davidmcleod8014]

why not refer these callers to..Daniel Miessler..The Bible is fiction: a collection of evidence.Similarities to other stories.All are very old mythical tales.

[@Quiroze1]

That was a beautiful moment when the caller said he can write a book and said that is from god. And both hosts agreed cheerfully.

[@BeheadedKamikaze]

Wow. Wow! Just got done watching the first call - Forrest and JMike are exceptionally good hosts, giving the callers space to talk and keeping the conversation on track. And the caller Mohammed, great answer at the end, go reflect about that question. Well done to all around, that was so good to watch.

[@donatomarcelloradice]

I know that you are western, godless and Souless wester (that is the logic, prove me wrong if you can or do not say anything please ☺) Atheism is mainly from the west, and west is rich, so people prefer to worship Money, and money produce a materialistic societies... Plus we westerns are very arrogants trhgout God, but we are the worst humans, we created so many wars, so much dangerous tecnology, imperialism and so on. So we think to be at the place of God, that why we do not him... Plus most of those people are youths and youths tend to be Godless and Souless, and they do not care that according to that idea system it makes you not have objective morality, they do not know where they morals come from (because they do not know where their morals come from, right??), plus the Atheism makes you believe you will be nothing once death, but you do not think about that when you are young and strong, but much you get older and closer to the death you become more religious because God and the idea of an Afterlife is the only thing make you go ahead... So basically you can not prove if there is a creation there is not a creator (can you??? Plaese answer this question with an answer not with another question if you can do) That why the West is so fucked up. Follow the money and bad church decision... Plus can you tell me where your morals come from (as it seems you western godless and souless people do not know it, and anyone who follow atheism can change his mind about anything right and wrong)... Can you prove God does not exist, with facts? Thank you May God Bless you ☺ (Please do not answer a question with another question and play that stupid game you alway play.

[@michaelmay5453]

Forrest is my guy on this and I think he does an excellent job in showing how biologists understand nature as is. We're just another part of nature but that doesn't mean that we don't consider our humanity as is and realise that we are indeed more special to other members within our species. I had a discussion with someone about how we are "destroying the planet" the other day. We're not, we're destroying the environment for some living species including our own but the planet will do just fine, other species will flourish and evolution of those species will make something else. We're not destroying the planet, we're changing the environment in a way that will cause our own extinction if we keep it up but we matter only to ourselves and each other, not to the planet nor the universe.

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

@@donatomarcelloradice "Can you prove God does not exist, with facts? " Which g0d?

[@joshsheridan9511]

@@donatomarcelloradice You're not using logic, it's just what you want to believe. There you go, you're wrong.

[@ministryofarguments3525]

@@joshsheridan9511 Unfortunately donatomarcelloradice comment is hidden from view.

[@Deris87]

The callers today were so bad it was honestly painful to get through, I had to take breaks and come back. Mad respect for Forrest and Jmike having the patience due endure the never ending cavalcade of bullshit.

[@mardishores4016]

This is why religion is dangerous. when it is legislated. How long must non believers have to tolerate religious intolerance of others? The LGBTQ has been persecuted by religious bullshit for centuries. Because a 'book' is old doesn't mean it's true. There are books older than the bible. OMG.. The patience of these two guys is astounding. I wouldn't have wasted this much time arguing with a brick wall.😅

[@markvonwisco7369]

Amanuel/SoG seems to be more interested running a script than having an actual conversation. Also, Closet Goblins!

[@nightlydrugs6927]

Yeah he really does. And he gets really frustrated when hosts won’t run down his script with him.

[@fritzhaselnuss7852]

@@nightlydrugs6927 just a kid trying to come up with a "gotcha" argument not realizing he is the 5 year old in an adult conversation

[@netplayer23]

@@fritzhaselnuss7852 A “5 year old”? How condescending of you! But, unfortunately, you hit the nail on the head with that description. Some of the callers are really hard to listen to, especially when they are obviously following a script that has been presented as “evidence” on the show a gazillion times!

[@markvonwisco7369]

@@nightlydrugs6927 I admit to enjoying the frustration. Amanuel changes the subject when he realizes the current line of attack isn't working.

[@Heathen.Deity.]

…and he said the hosts weren’t listening. Just precious.

[@davidofoakland2363]

Good show! I think JMike is really starting to hit his stride on TAE - I like his analysis of history and why some biblical claims rise to the level of "likely happened" and others (most) don't. Very educational!

[@disgruntledmum4916]

I'd like to hear more on JMike's reasoning behind why Judas betrayal makes the historicity of Jesus more likely. To me that would seem like a very well-used literary trope to gain sympathy for the protagonist.

[@Julian0101]

@@disgruntledmum4916 I think it is becasue is an historical event that may have happened and was "known" at the time (a guy betrayed another guy and later on the first guy was found dead) but as none of the authors were there, they had to make shit up to fit their narrative. Similar to the contradiction about what year jesus was born. If it was all made up they wouldnt need to contradict each other (or at least that is how the justification works). It is a very low standard, but it is one found on academic history for other historical figures (unlike the other made up criterias apologists love to sell). Of course this shows how the contradictions makes the fables unreliable, and it doesnt makes the rest of the fables magically true.

[@joeldavis1693]

I absolutely loved this episode! JMike and Forest had soooo many great things to say, I've listened to it 3 times on podcast and I'm still absorbing it. Love these kinds of calls and conversations!

[@Btwix46]

So I always listen to the Atheist experience via Apple Podcasts, this is basically the first time I’m watching a video and actually seeing the clips from the other shows. Now tell me why all this time i thought one of the other shows was called the non-‘PROFITS’ instead of ‘PROPHETS’ 😂 it all makes soooooooooo much sense now😅

[@fatjesus4528]

Jmike!! Holy shit!! Dropping bombs today. Probably your best show.

[@ConsciousMigration]

WOW. AT the 41 minute mark, Sheep of God walks RIGHT into it AND STILL MISSES IT. HOW do these guys operate??

[@greenemic]

Wow! Yeah, how does he even feed and clothe himself being THAT frickin' obtuse?! 🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️

[@nightlydrugs6927]

And he still doesn’t get it

[@denverarnold6210]

I always find it amazing how they hit the bullseye, yet still miss the target.

[@Julian0101]

I dont think he missed it, he hit the bullseye by accident and needed to deny and backtrack as fast as possible. Good on forest he moved on, because after that we would have heard a lot of garbage in an attempt to forget his blunder.

[@greenemic]

@@Julian0101 You know, ... I think you're right. He realized his mistake and had to deflect before even HE had to admit *out loud* that he was wrong.

[@Icypenguigo]

Goddamn JMike was on fire this show! And Forrest was awesome as usual. :)

[@SeventyTons]

This was a great show! You two were such a great team, backing each other up when the caller bypassed an obvious point the other host was trying to make. JMike, you were ON FIRE tonight! I LOVE listening to two experts absolutly demolish theist positions! Thanks for the great work, you two!

[@shurakai7]

Jmike is becoming a boss...what a great show!

[@glenhill9884]

Mark said he "instinctively" feels there must be a god, and in the next breath said he is unbiased. Do you see the contradiction there, Mark?

[@pmtoner9852]

Mark does not

[@thedarknessthatcomesbefore4279]

We do but Mark...no.

[@PhilipRice]

Outstanding hosts and conversations!!

[@pascalsimioli6777]

Amanuel changing his name just gives me Robin vibes. He's probably on discord with Darth Basement Dweller and following their script.

[@Jd-808]

Gotta admit this is a great duo. I really appreciate the patience and understanding shown to the callers.

[@loodlebop]

Love this duo, you guys are great

[@fritzhaselnuss7852]

Emmanuel...."doubling down" is what children do who are too stubborn not wanting to face reality. Older people do it too because so many need to "grow up". You do too

[@ShutUpWesley]

Sheep of God! That description is perfection.

[@marceljanssens5935]

Really good show with well developing conversations

[@bjrnarbjrnarsson5845]

JMike and Forrest are an awesome team. Amazing amount of hair, too!

[@jakesmith5278]

This is Mark in a nutshell: I'm a real skeptical guy but I believe in the Christian god without any good reason. And I am dismissing any other being as god 'cause I'm real skeptical. Plus, I don't put the saddle before the horse. Dude, I think you are confusing skeptical with gullible. You are already a theist and could not produce any decent evidence to the claim. Might want to re-think that saddle analogy.

[@donatomarcelloradice]

I know that you are western, godless and Souless wester (that is the logic, prove me wrong if you can or do not say anything please ☺) Atheism is mainly from the west, and west is rich, so people prefer to worship Money, and money produce a materialistic societies... Plus we westerns are very arrogants trhgout God, but we are the worst humans, we created so many wars, so much dangerous tecnology, imperialism and so on. So we think to be at the place of God, that why we do not him... Plus most of those people are youths and youths tend to be Godless and Souless, and they do not care that according to that idea system it makes you not have objective morality, they do not know where they morals come from (because they do not know where their morals come from, right??), plus the Atheism makes you believe you will be nothing once death, but you do not think about that when you are young and strong, but much you get older and closer to the death you become more religious because God and the idea of an Afterlife is the only thing make you go ahead... So basically you can not prove if there is a creation there is not a creator (can you??? Plaese answer this question with an answer not with another question if you can do) That why the West is so fucked up. Follow the money and bad church decision... Plus can you tell me where your morals come from (as it seems you western godless and souless people do not know it, and anyone who follow atheism can change his mind about anything right and wrong)... Can you prove God does not exist, with facts? Thank you May God Bless you ☺ (Please do not answer a question with another question and play that stupid game you alway play.

[@TheKrossRoads]

Mark also rubbed me the wrong way. He kept asserting he was a skeptic over and over, but yet when pressed about logic behind the things he considers strong enough evidence to join the theist camp, he talked in circles and deflected. A skeptic would let their beliefs be dictated by evidence (or a lack thereof) that would stand up to scrutiny like that. His evidence did not, Mike and Forrest tore it apart right before his eyes. You don't need evidence to be an atheist; it's the default position. You need evidence to NOT be an atheist. And in the entire course of human events, there has never been any solid evidence for any god, ever.

[@jakesmith5278]

@@donatomarcelloradice So even as a troll, you failed. Apply yourself.

[@jaklg7905]

People don't want to believe Sai Baba because it sound ridiculous and improbably. And they would be right. Except that they don't apply that same logic to the religion that they were brainwashed into believing since birth. It is funny how they can not make that mental leap to see how ridiculous it all is.

[@jakesmith5278]

@@jaklg7905 It's not that this caller couldn't make the leap, he just doesn't want to. He enjoys his comfort zone and lazy thinking too much. All the dodging and moving to different subjects gave it away. Typical of dishonest theists.

[@roybarrows9733]

Mark: I look to science to justify my faith. Also Mark: There is absolutely nothing in science that justifies my faith.

[@FakingANerve]

I actually wrote the book about Roland. I talked to a person that says he knew of Roland through oral traditions over the last 60-90 years, and I wrote his story down. In a way, I'm an eye witness to his life and works. Now, other people have copied my writings, but many have corrupted them. The truth of Roland is written on their hearts (and yours), but poor diet has corrupted them and that makes Roland very angry!

[@poohbear3027]

Poor diet! lol

[@kimsland999]

@@poohbear3027 It may be a saying like, They have eyes but can't see Lol, always makes me laugh. Speak English you nutter :D

[@Julian0101]

I was there when you wrote it, so it is totally true.

[@BaronVonQuiply]

I've been to Subway. I could feel the presence of Roland when I ordered my footlong.

[@Brock_1025]

My favorite host/co-host duo!

[@dirkschmid1045]

I just do not understand all the people like Brian who ask “What kind of evidence would make you believe in god?” The answer is in the question. Evidence! I would have thought that was pretty obvious and a logical conclusion. Evidence is proof of something. Therefore ANY evidence would be confirmation in support of the claim. In other words, ANY evidence that proves that there is a god is sufficient. I don’t understand how some people do not seem to realise something so blatantly obvious. As for ANY evidence for god, there simply has NEVER been any. Therefore it is irrational to have a belief that has absolutely no evidence to support it.

[@soulcrewblue8629]

Two exceptionally knowledgeable hosts, a force for atheism.

[@user-ng9bl5lh3m]

If that's your force for atheism I can see why your ratings stay so low in this echo chamber. Lol!

[@carlosrobles6388]

The elephant behind your bookshelf would make a great merch T-shirt!!! I love your show. It makes me love my finite life more i’m a disabled 68 year year-old Vietnam veteran on a fixed income but as soon as I can help support you guys, I will keep doing what you’re doing the message needs to get out about this dangerous doctrine by apologists

[@robertfreeman6082]

Can’t wait for Forrest to bring out a copy of The Book of Roland in a future episode

[@Cursum_Perficio]

Hail Roland! Excellent show guys👍

[@themaster408]

Called Sheep of God, man, even when I was a die hard Christian I would NEVER say that Christians pretty much believed the same thing. I mean, I guess it's good he's not doing the 'no true scotsman' thing, but never did I think my values were the same as Westboro Baptist. My church was against homosexuality, but even they were like "woah woah, we're not THAT hateful"

[@brenton2561]

Not in public at least...

[@matthewwhite8882]

Also, I’ve noticed that it’s still apparently too difficult for the ACA to label calls from Canada as CAN, as opposed to CA. Might be nice to avoid confusion w/California ya know. Just sayin’

[@donatomarcelloradice]

I know that you are western, godless and Souless wester (that is the logic, prove me wrong if you can or do not say anything please ☺) Atheism is mainly from the west, and west is rich, so people prefer to worship Money, and money produce a materialistic societies... Plus we westerns are very arrogants trhgout God, but we are the worst humans, we created so many wars, so much dangerous tecnology, imperialism and so on. So we think to be at the place of God, that why we do not him... Plus most of those people are youths and youths tend to be Godless and Souless, and they do not care that according to that idea system it makes you not have objective morality, they do not know where they morals come from (because they do not know where their morals come from, right??), plus the Atheism makes you believe you will be nothing once death, but you do not think about that when you are young and strong, but much you get older and closer to the death you become more religious because God and the idea of an Afterlife is the only thing make you go ahead... So basically you can not prove if there is a creation there is not a creator (can you??? Plaese answer this question with an answer not with another question if you can do) That why the West is so fucked up. Follow the money and bad church decision... Plus can you tell me where your morals come from (as it seems you western godless and souless people do not know it, and anyone who follow atheism can change his mind about anything right and wrong)... Can you prove God does not exist, with facts? Thank you May God Bless you ☺ (Please do not answer a question with another question and play that stupid game you alway play.

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

​@@donatomarcelloradice "Can you prove God does not exist, with facts? " Which g0d?

[@fredbohm4728]

@@donatomarcelloradice Why should I prove god does not exist when nobody has ever proven a god does exist?

[@oggyoggy1299]

Maybe it was Cairo or Canary Islands. What have you got against these places?

[@BubblezThaKlown]

Sorry aboot that

[@boblangford5514]

I was really sad when Matt left AXP. However, Forrest is like Matt’s clone, except he’s more polite, better educated, and more patient with callers who don’t understand the delay. I think AXP is in good hands. JMike also made several excellent points during the show. The way he broke down faith vs. evidence to “Sheep” or whatever his name was, that was a really good lesson that I’m sure Sheep will ignore.

[@johnd.shultz7423]

You are Absolutely Right about sheepy ignoring truth! but heck! no one should ruin this mediocretins shot at being a preacher and expanding his ego to super size...

[@vladimirkorobko6730]

Fantastic show - thanks to the hosts!

[@KBosch-xp2ut]

I haven’t listened yet, so maybe I’ll be proven wrong, but this is the perfect host combination. J.Mike knows his philosophy and Forrest knows his science!

[@barrydavis6626]

Sheep of God: Some Christians believe in salvation through works, some believe in salvation through faith alone, some (such as Calvinists) believe in the elect, who are "saved" no matter what they believe or do. The Bible (being the book of multiple choice) makes all of these claims. Theologists have been attempting and failing, miserably, to reconcile these dogmas, for millenia. Me, being an atheist, believes that there is no such thing as salvation--and, no need for salvation, because, there is no such thing as condemnation through sin. It is ludicrous to say that there is a common theme in all Christian dogmas.

[@VaughanMcCue]

Sheepgod wasn't as bright as a sheepdog.

[@NinjaJay_Arashikage]

This was an awesome episode. Forrest and JMike play well off each other. Very decent calls with meaningful discussions. Still no evidence for God.🤷‍♂

[@thomdavis4142]

Just read this book. Thank you for this recommendation. Great read.

[@joolding6022]

Remember Roland loves you, and if you leave a subway sandwich in your closet and it's still there in 30 minutes that means he really loves you.

[@iSkulk]

Love this duo! I hope we get more shows with Forest and JMike

[@markmcgee2417]

I thought Mark from NY was calling in to say that humans are more than animals but I guess the call took a different course. I was really interested in what Forrest might say in regards to that question.

[@KBosch-xp2ut]

Forrest has said many times, including in the first call of the show, that humans are just another animal.

[@dooivid]

Brian was a great call and well worth the listen. He didn't have any good arguments but he was honest and well meaning

[@regntonne]

This guy is in ALL the shows. And that's a good thing.

[@ronaldstanley4817]

That guy?!?!?! The one with the hair and skin?!?!?!

[@BeheadedKamikaze]

Perhaps you could be a little bit more specific 😉 about to which guy you are referring

[@emperorgizmo3014]

@@ronaldstanley4817 LOL 😆

[@regntonne]

@@BeheadedKamikaze If you've been following these shows, you know exactly who i mean, mister.

[@patriklindholm7576]

Yeah, what a guy.

[@GreatOutdoors1]

I dislike when someone posits that people only use faith for the proposition that someone loves them. People demonstrate love and fondness through actions all the time. Those who only use faith for proof that someone loves them usually face the consequences, as in say being a battered wife or some other sort of abusive or totally one-sided relationship.

[@tedweird]

That's such a bizarre stance to take, too. If you believe that there's no evidence but faith for love, how shitty are you views on love? When my friend Julie asks if I want to eat sushi with her, or my friend David streams the game he's playing unprompted just so I can watch, or my friend Charlie sends me the equivalent of psychological torture, that's love! I have so much evidence in my experiences that I don't need to rely on faith

[@johnd.shultz7423]

Unlike amanuel i dont depend on some subconsciously buried FEAR of hell or the GREED for paradise to see the value of treating other people with empathy or compassion.sheep are easily frightened animals and unlike "sheep of god" i dont act out of fear of some mythological deity or blindly follow scriptures to avoid punishment....

[@Tommyr]

Forrest and Jmike are a good one/two punch! Well done guys!

[@mattysheppy1193]

Do we have an update on whether JMike did well on his presentation? Love you guys. Thank you so much

[@charlesgipson6898]

JMike and Forrest great show...

[@Mr_Porter]

A lot of long calls this week, but it's all good. I'm surprised there weren't any crazy/irate callers this week. This is the first week of no hang ups that the show has had in quite a while.

[@1eftnut]

Braiding Sweetgrass is an amazing book!

[@thedarknessthatcomesbefore4279]

I might just have to get a copy.

[@karlacindysantamaria7292]

Great show!! ☺️😊 amazing JMike and Forrest!!

[@Keytwice]

I love the skyscraper analogy at 52:00

[@eljison]

After stating that he is a skeptic and assesses each claim individually, Mark states at @1:27:50, "I start with this idea that there is a God, and then I kind of work from there..." Then, at @1:29:56, Mark states that he thinks that atheists have a misunderstanding that theists put the cart before the horse.... they are starting with..." YES! That is what you just did 2 minutes earlier! I agree with JMike that this is frustrating.

[@canderson5098]

I saw Sheep of God open for Slayer.

[@_Omega_Weapon]

That would be Lamb of God

[@Im_Hugh_Jass]

@@_Omega_Weapon well it wasn’t going to remain a lamb forever

[@hakureikura9052]

@@Im_Hugh_Jass ewe

[@NotAPacifist825]

LoL

[@Im_Hugh_Jass]

@@hakureikura9052 right. It becomes either a ewe or a ram

[@zions4785]

This was SO EPIC to watch!!! To see the absolute absurdity of religion (manipulation) get smacked down so hard! Aaahhh, like a breath of fresh air! 😂

[@stefanbjarnason251]

Forrest Valkai and....and JMoses! Great tag team!

[@Constant_Threat]

Mark's problem seems to be that he starts with a conclusion and then works backwards to try and find evidence which supports that conclusion. This just so happens to be a very bad, and illogical way of going about trying to find truth. One should only come to a strong conclusion that they confidently hold once a high threshold of evidence has been established. Also, I'm not trying to be a dick here, but when he says "I'm a skeptic" but then goes on to talk about how he thinks Jesus resurrected from the dead, that's pretty ridiculous. Lastly, may Roland bless you all!

[@African_Atheist]

You can't mess with Jesus Mike and Forrest Valkai. Love you guys.

[@mtbee9641]

Liked the show. I also liked JMike's analogy about always pulling out Blue balls from a bag. Theists say the next ball is going to be Red! - But we keep pulling out Blue balls. Nobody knows what color balls are in the bag to attempt a guess at what color will be next! All we know is that we keep pulling out Blue balls. The analogy being that Blue balls are what Science is finding out - everything we find in science supports the naturalistic world view. If we ever pull out anything other than Blue we will know that there is something other than Blue balls in the bag. So when we find something that doesn't fit with science we will know there is more. Until then Theists are just guessing what is in the bag or that there is something other than a natural explanation.

[@asagoldsmith3328]

NUH UH U ARE JUST PRESUPPOSING THAT ALL THE BALLS ARE BLUE WHY EVEN PULL ANY BALLS UNLESS YOU HAVE FAITH THAT THEY ARE QCTUALLY RED

[@mtbee9641]

@@asagoldsmith3328 Nope. Not presupposing anything. Nobody knows what color balls are in the bag. All we know is that so far only Blue balls are being drawn. Until something else is drawn it remains unknown as to if any other color even exists.

[@asagoldsmith3328]

@@mtbee9641 HOW DO YOU KNOW THE BALLS ARE EVEN REAL UNLESS THERE IS A MAXIMALLY POWERFUL BALL CREATOR

[@mtbee9641]

@@asagoldsmith3328 it’s an analogy. We know the balls exist in the analogy. Just as the things around us exist. If you want to posit a different analogy that is up to you.

[@asagoldsmith3328]

@@mtbee9641 yeah I'm just fuckin with you 😂

[@donaldcook2484]

Religion is like a merry go round just going around and around and just making me dizzy!

[@ScottM1973]

Love how SoG called in with a topic and every time the hosts made a point against it he just said "That's not the point I was making" like his belief avoids being confronted with evidence if he keeps changing the topic.

[@teuast]

welcome to the philosophical torture chamber that is talking to Amanuel from Texas

[@johnd.shultz7423]

he,s like a twisted, dishonest defense lawyer for living in Fear....

[@ArkansasBassMan]

this was an excellent show

[@RTSOB1]

Re Brian's argument: "...a Catholic in some foreign country can go into a church and he'll be accepted...". Try that argument in Dublin - see how far you get.

[@YAWTon]

Any reason why they wouldn't be accepted?

[@ajclements4627]

I honestly didn’t realize the conflict was still a thing, the “peace walls” around Northern Ireland to separate Catholic and Protestant areas in an attempt to control sectarian violence were still standing* as recently as 2020. I was under the (now mistaken) impression that the “troubles” more or less ended with the Good Friday Agreement. *There’s still 116 “peace walls” in place.

[@leekestner1554]

The Irish of both sides Catholic and Protestant, have worked very hard to gain more harmony. They trained volunteers in enough skills to host get togethers of half Protestant and half Catholic with tea and cake and then just talk about their lives. Soon they were finding out that they had the same problems with the overbearing boss, the rebellious teenage kids, and swapping remedies to use with their toddlers. The more they met and talked they found out they were not monsters but just people. They birthed more cells out of the ones that they taught and in a few years had enough of the populations realizing that they were all Irish. And that is when the troubles truly deescalated. I am sure there are a few die hards still around. In truth we need something like this here in the US because the left and right have gotten so far apart that each are beginning to look at the other as monsters.

[@cafemolido5459]

A god would not need to convince anyone of anything, he/she (all powerful) would be able to change the brain cells to make one believe

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

But the g0d of abraham needs lame callers and posters to come here to do his convincing for him. LOL

[@steveyuhas9278]

It's really great and everything that when Amanuel calls, his faith is self-reportedly bolstered... But it's extra great for us and a net positive for atheism because he creates numerous new atheists every time he calls in. His thinking is terribly broken and is a perfect example of the harm religion does. I wonder if he even realizes he's single handedly dooming multiple individuals to hell every week. Jesus would be sad.

[@johnd.shultz7423]

heres a guy who loves preaching that living in fear of his deity is a great thing,no wonder he calls himself "sheep of god" he.s a fine sheeple with no seeming capacity to think for himself,as living in fear destroys ones ability to think clearly and question ones idealism... baaaaah!

[@Destroythenavel]

Love the Trilobite behind J Mike.

[@alexanderweddle3948]

Asking an atheist what kind of evidence would convince him/ her of a “god” almost gives away the game, since it suggests the asker doesn’t know what sufficient evidence would be; if the asker doesn’t know himself, what justification could he have for his own belief. Besides, the issue is really whether evidence sufficient to convince a reasonable person exists, not simply evidence that would convince an atheist. I haven’t been offered such evidence.

[@kimsland999]

I don't like term _sufficient_ evidence, as evidence itself is all that someone needs. I generally say: I require evidence to meet the level of belief required. So far none of that. A similar example is: _extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims_ Again I feel you merely require evidence to meet the claim, it could be simple evidence! As long as it meets the claim of a God existing.

[@donnievance1942]

Oh c'mon, didn't you listen to caller Mark? "But the trees, the art..."

[@alexanderweddle3948]

@@kimsland999, an argument over meanings of the word “evidence” is too long for here. “Evidence” is generally understood to mean “that which is offered to make a material fact more probable.” A single piece of evidence is not always sufficient to meet some level of proof. “Sufficient evidence” refers broadly to whatever quantum of evidence is required to satisfy a standard of proof (e.g. preponderance of the evidence, clear and convincing evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt). Not all evidence is equally probative; that is not all evidence is equally valuable for showing an ultimate fact likely to be true.

[@alexanderweddle3948]

I would be thrilled if those who believe in a “god” would start with sufficient evidence to meet the standard “more likely than not” which is a pretty low standard of proof.

[@mactallica9293]

1:02:50 so if we had evidence of God, we would all give up on life? But that also say athiests have no meaning of life because they don't believe.... Great logic

[@ThinkThenSpeak]

Mark wants to know what’s true and he’s “skeptical” and yet starts with God. Weird.

[@ottonormalverbrauch3794]

So not skeptical to begin with...

[@denverarnold6210]

I'm highly doubtful of anyone claiming to be skeptical unprompted actually being so.

[@KlausJepps]

Where can I buy the book of Roland the closet goblin? Am I spelling it wrong? Is it Roleland or Wroghl&?

[@KlausJepps]

The sandwich is still there! Roland really loves me :D

[@Heathen.Deity.]

I don’t mean to be blunt, but we’re not special, nor are we any more or less unique than any other species. I don’t see what’s scary about that.

[@ajclements4627]

I’m not particularly concerned with the fact I’m a primate, but the believers really lose their minds over it.

[@sierrajane7073]

39:29 I grew up Pentecostal, I deconstructed my faith, and for my reasons decided to practice witchcraft. I have attained the rank that equates to a head pastor. I'm devoted and dedicated to my Goddess and Her pantheon. (Christians view this as worshipping their devil) however I still speak in tongues ALL the time. Tongues isn't a spiritually guided act, it's a process of vocalizing intention without words, it's all a form of bonding through the mutual breaking of social norms. When done in an already reverent or intense setting it helps to generate passion and release dopamine. That why it feels so good. It's a natural thing that has been utilized by several different religious practices. Though Christians, and Pentecostals especially, believe it is solely for them, and entirely spiritual. Edit addition 40:25, sooo MY Goddess is a fraudulent spirit because She contradicts YOU'RE beliefs? She doesn't contradict my beliefs, but your God does. So your god is false. (I don't actually believe that but making a point.) Do you see how lame of an argument that is?

[@blackhelm5773]

Mark: I'm a skeptical person. Wait for it....

[@BenderLens]

Skeptical person, but just straight up takes the resurrection as a fact without much thought. That kinda made me eye roll

[@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2]

I resemble that remark!

[@realguy7808]

He says that everytime he calls into a show

[@smochygrice465]

Great show guys, interesting calls and conversations where had 🥰 Keep changing those minds one at a time. Peace Love Empathy From Australia.

[@Treerootz1]

False

[@smochygrice465]

@@Treerootz1 False, false friend 🤪

[@jayrose8638]

@@sideboob6851 it probably is a false statement. Likely helping more than one mind at a time.

[@emperorgizmo3014]

@@Treerootz1 what is false? The show being great? The calls being interesting? The conversations being good? Changing minds one at a time? Or the peace, love from Australia? You can't just go ahead and act all Republican on people. I know Republicans like simple answers, their vocabulary is extremely limited and they usually don't understand science or anything that doesn't have to do with God or Gun's... ohh them domestic terrorists love themselves some Gun's don't they? Anyways, you gotta be more specific. What specifically are you claiming is false?

[@donatomarcelloradice]

I know that you are western, godless and Souless wester (that is the logic, prove me wrong if you can or do not say anything please ☺) Atheism is mainly from the west, and west is rich, so people prefer to worship Money, and money produce a materialistic societies... Plus we westerns are very arrogants trhgout God, but we are the worst humans, we created so many wars, so much dangerous tecnology, imperialism and so on. So we think to be at the place of God, that why we do not him... Plus most of those people are youths and youths tend to be Godless and Souless, and they do not care that according to that idea system it makes you not have objective morality, they do not know where they morals come from (because they do not know where their morals come from, right??), plus the Atheism makes you believe you will be nothing once death, but you do not think about that when you are young and strong, but much you get older and closer to the death you become more religious because God and the idea of an Afterlife is the only thing make you go ahead... So basically you can not prove if there is a creation there is not a creator (can you??? Plaese answer this question with an answer not with another question if you can do) That why the West is so fucked up. Follow the money and bad church decision... Plus can you tell me where your morals come from (as it seems you western godless and souless people do not know it, and anyone who follow atheism can change his mind about anything right and wrong)... Can you prove God does not exist, with facts? Thank you May God Bless you ☺ (Please do not answer a question with another question and play that stupid game you alway play.

[@davidsmith-uw2ci]

What is more special is that we are connected to everything that is more special and amazing than being created separate.

[@cnault3244]

Could you repeat that in English?

[@thewiseowl8804]

If we are connected to everything that is more special, how is anything more special?

[@The_Worst_Guy_Ever]

@@thewiseowl8804don’t worry I’ll translate. What is more special is that we are connected to everything(.) (T)hat is more special and amazing than being created separate.

[@thewiseowl8804]

@@The_Worst_Guy_Ever I am getting some condescending vibes from your comment, and that makes sense with your username. You didn’t need to "translate." If they fail to use simple punctuation, then their point isn't worthy of being understood. This entire conversation meant nothing.

[@theflyingdutchguy9870]

faith is when someone really wants something to be true so they just trust in it no matter what. faith is the death of reason

[@cnault3244]

"Faith is something that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe." ~~ Archie Bunker”

[@ronthered138]

Muhammad, just exactly WHO do you need to be special to? I am special to the people in my life. I have tried to make myself valuable to them so that they care for me in return. I can't imagine what else could matter. If you have no family, you could interact with friends and co-workers. We are social animals. We are special to each other only.

[@blakewalker84120]

I understand Amanual Sheep of God's point. The more I watch Christian shows, the more convinced I am that there is no god. So why shouldn't the reverse be true for a true believer?