The Band of Brothers Mutiny. Was It Scripted By Colonel Sink To Out Sobel?

[@leeproffitt69]

I’m a retired chief warrant officer from the 101st airborne I was in the army for over 30 years. I’ve read most of the books on easy company. you’re an analysis of what could’ve happened is probably one of the best that I’ve ever heard. That’s an amazing work that you did keep it up. Look forward to more of the stuff that you put out.

[@jsmith5278]

Yes. Unbiased facts are a rarity today.

[@War_And_Truth]

Thank you. That means a lot coming from you.

[@fathead8933]

Its the most plausible explanation. Sink: im about to lose the best company i have because of this CM. SGM ?: we'll get this resolved sir SGM ? to NCOs: this is what i need......

[@Spark_Chaser]

@@fathead8933 Rock Paper Scissors for who gets to be "the Ringleader."

[@paddydunne774]

High praise indeed

[@hlsailorhlsailor9838]

My parents neighbor was Forest Guth, a member of Easy company, though not one of the main characters in the BoB series. I asked Forest what he thought about BoB and how accurate it was. Forest replied that he thought that BoB was as accurate as one could expect for a TV series; time compression; one person doing something that really was done by more than one; minor things like that. He said Winters really was as good as the show portrayed. The one thing that bothered Forest was he thought BoB was too rough on Sobel. Forest credited Sobel for making Easy company into what they were.

[@2104dogface]

Guth spent a good amount of time with us in E/506th Reenacted at events , got to hear all the fun stories that never made the series or books.

[@hlsailorhlsailor9838]

@@2104dogface yes, I know he was very happy about the time he spent during the filming. He showed my a bunch of pictures. He was a shop teacher at one of the local highschools.

[@GravesRWFiA]

if you read the book, with the passage of time enlisted men seemed to accept that sobel had made them excellent soldiers even if he was not one himself. it was the officers that seemed to carry the grudge long after the war.

[@2104dogface]

@@GravesRWFiA having talked with Wild Bill about Sobel he did hate him then, but gave him credit for bonding the men and making the company, he (Bill) even paid his (sobel's) dues to the 101st association. even though he never attended any of the events or reunions. unit members of E/506th Reenacted are in contact with his son and do talk with him. (along with all the other families of the men of Easy)

[@JamesBarker-qt3pb]

​@@2104dogfaceDo Tell

[@jessicabaxter4868]

Very glad you're still making video's, I love these deep dives into the real history and personalities of the men presented semi-fictionally in Band of Brothers. Thank you for all your hard work!

[@Augustus087]

Thank you for continuing to produce good content. I appreciate your dedication to a passion of history, which is clearly something you are drawn to. As for me, I was drawn to being a teacher, and writing a novel that took 7 years to complete. /salute Sincerely, a former Coast Guardsman

[@War_And_Truth]

Much appreciated!

[@HandyMan657]

Glad you're still posting, W&T. No doubt there's more to the story, but we'll never know. Please keep up the great work. I hope yt's playing fair. Take care, keep safe.

[@War_And_Truth]

Will do!

[@ObiWanShinobi67]

Sink probably was aware that Sobel was incompetent in the field, but knew he was great at training and motivating. So why not have him train more soldiers and avoid him screwing up missions in the war? I guess its possible he orchestrated it, but it seems the soldiers who survived in the years after would have spilled the beans.

[@rodrigorincongarcia771]

Also, if "The colonel thinks he's a good trainer, but a bad commander" is the reason, I think he would have been sent away sooner, not wait until the last minute.

[@johnshaffer3405]

@@rodrigorincongarcia771 I think Colonel Sink was unaware of Sobel's incompetence until the company started training in England and the junior officer cut someones fence on the "orders" of Major Horton.

[@markwilliams9133]

I don’t think the Colonel commanding the regiment would need to conspire or make up a reason to relieve or transfer an officer serving under him; he could just do it. Sink admired Winters and must have thought the court-martial episode ridiculous.

[@tihomirrasperic]

nothing is simple We see later in the series that Company E had a problem with Lieutenant Dike, and that replacing an "incompetent" commander is not easy, he has to give a good reason to remove him According to me, this happened When the request for court-martial came, the "council" of the regiment was in session no matter how ridiculous the reason was, they didn't want it to be known that the commander of the best company was an asshole, and the military court would have to protect the integrity of the commander and punish an excellent officer for stupidity So they had to "cook" something Major Horton and Lt. Col. Strayer had their fingers in the "mutiny" believe that if they had not been involved, there would not have been a rebellion, because all the disobedient ones would have been quietly removed without a trace, it was war and in war "listen and execute" So it is likely that Major Horton instructed the Battalion Sergeant what to say to the E Company Sergeant When the "Mutiny" occurred Colonel Sink was "Surprised and Convinced" but now he was able to remove Sobel, so Sobel was promoted to commander of the parachute school Without Sobel or without Winters, there is no court-martial case The wolf was full, the goat remained intact

[@rannenw6207]

It is a way of shifting the blame.

[@samuelwallace2782]

The officer corps is now, and always has been, rife with politics. Every officer plays the game. Some, like winters, really are above it and only do what they have to to take care of their men, but there is also a reason why he got out right after WW2 and only came back in when he was recalled during the Korean War. Sink was a great officer because he knew how to play the game. He did what was best for Easy company AND Sobel, but in a subtle enough way to avoid causing problems

[@TowGunner]

When I first watched BoB I too thought Sink had to know Sobel’s shortcomings, especially in the field. Lux’s son confirmed the shenanigans with the barbed wire fence. I don’t think Sink orchestrated the mutiny. The NCO’s who mutinied were too valuable to the company/platoons and with the invasion approaching, Sink knew he had to reinstate them to their previous rank. Scouring the other companies for NCOs would have destroyed the unit cohesion of Easy.

[@rhett4060]

Sink was not stupid.....he knew to if Sobel were to lead/command on D-Day somebody would nail his ass...... Also Sink was the godfather of Easy and the 506....

[@richarddexter7641]

I spent about 7 years in legal services in the 70s and 80s. Assuming the facts of the incident are as stated in the series, Sink would have been well aware that Winters would never have been convicted. (You can't disobey an order you never received, and Sobel had no proof that Winters received the order. A simple questioning of the runner would have proven either Winters or Sobel correct. Winters wouldn't have been foolish enough to demand trial by courts-martial unless he was certain he never received the order.) With that in mind, what does Sink do? First, he has someone on his staff investigate the incident quietly to confirm Sink's suspisions, and the investigation proves Winters version more than likely correct. On one hand, if Sink dismisses the courts-martial for lack of evidence, Sobel is alienated and further undermined as a leader. If he allows the courts-martial to proceed, Winters is alienated--along with a good portion of Easy Company that believes not only in the innocence of their platoon leader, but believes he's being railroaded. Couple the idea in the mind of the NCOs that Winters is being railroaded along with the belief that Sobel was going to get them killed in action, it's feasible that the NCOs mutinied when presented with these two very real realities. Now, do the NCOs have any idea about the politics of the courts-martial? Probably not. But your speculation that Sink could have promoted others from within the ranks to replace the mutineers is unfounded. If those individuals existed, they were almost certainly less qualified as NCOs than Lipton and Co. Removing them (or even convicting them and having them put to death for mutiny) was not going to sit well with the rank-and-file, who no doubt would have sided with the NCOs. It would have done nothing at that time other than create a less than ideal leadership situation while finalizing preparation for Normandy. This would have been a bad play, as unit cohesion would have been shot. As to the speculation that Sink put them up to the mutiny, that also seems unlikely. Logically, Occam's Razor applies here, and the simplest explanation is the right one--the one that was told in the series. The mutiny was a fortuitous event that allowed Sink to gracefully remove Sobel AND silently dismiss the charges against Winters.

[@War_And_Truth]

Thanks for your post. This was always complete speculation on my behalf. Sink was a very crafty customer.

[@richarddexter7641]

@@War_And_Truth Clearly it was all speculation, but my experience tells me it was unlikely. Then again, how service members behaved during WWII and the time I served is no doubt at least somewhat different. There's no question that Sink used the mutiny to his utmost advantage; sending Sobel to Chilton-Foley to train non-combatants to jump was brilliant, as there's no doubt, even coming from Easy Co men, that Sobel was a great training officer but a much less skilled leader in the field. Putting men where they're best able to succeed makes all the difference, and I have no doubt that Sobel's work training the non-combatants saved many of those men's lives. Honestly, there's something about being at least a bit of a jerk as a leader is generally necessary--you can't spend your time worrying about other's feelings when you have to lead; the job is more important than peoples' feelings. In this specific case, Sink didn't give a damn about the NCOs feelings, but he knew he needed them to get the job done--the NCOs were more important to the overall mission than Sobel was under the circumstances, particularly when Sink had other officers that could replace Sobel. In this case it may have been nothing more than a numbers game--one officer to be replaced rather than a dozen or so NCOs.

[@Alarichswiftpaw]

@@richarddexter7641 I like the last line. If you've never been in the military and served combat or near combat... you don't realize what the platoon daddy and his nco's mean to the men. If you allow the platoon leader to get "railroaded" while offing the nco's you're gonna have a huge problem. The men follow those guys not you, you tell them what to tell to the men. You'll have nothing out of those men, and it likely would've ended with all of Easy getting wiped in the field.

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

Oh - and as to the question about Sink scripting this? No. Officers don't do things like that. They don't have to. .

[@stevelenox152]

I think that Col Sink knew that Soble was best used as an instructor not leading a combat company so he would of spokrn to not only Winters but also the NCOs and he told them that two would be punished but they could choose who it would be.

[@grast5150]

Very interesting idea. I did not know that Harris received his stripes back before D-Day. That does lead to an interesting option. Losing a stripe and restoring can be done by Company Commander. Being busted down to Private and then later 6 months getting back all of your stripes, that is something only someone at Sink's level or higher could perform if we are going by the book. As you said Sink was known to be vindictive if wronged. So, it is a good assumption that all the NCO bypassing Strayer and barging into Sinks office with only dressing down is counter to reports of how Sink would have responded which gives credence to it being a smoke screen.

[@Mag_Aoidh]

Interesting hypothesis. Like you said, Sink would have known Sobel’s inadequacies in how he dealt with his men but they all seem to think that Sobel prepared them and contributed to their success in combat. He was the right man at the right time, but that is where he needed to be, not in combat. He had a very sad ending.

[@spookerredmenace3950]

no idea how i found this channel but awesome work, hello from Cobourg Ontario Canada liked and subbed

[@War_And_Truth]

Awesome, thank you!

[@jbellos1]

There is always more to the story. You do fantastic research and comparisons between the book, the series, and real life.

[@War_And_Truth]

Thank you

[@johngaither9263]

Col. Sinks actions were always very Machiavellian. it's very easy to visualize him getting the things Sobel was best at extracting from the men and then discarding him before his weaknesses manifested themselves in combat. In some ways Sink and Soble were troublingly alike. That aspect of their relationship was revealed in their approach and attitudes about discipline and punishment. Sink used it primarily during training of the battalion but lightened up once in combat. I'm pretty sure Sink realized Sobel would not change and could not effectively lead in combat.

[@diver11b1p2]

Great series of videos you have made here, there is always more to the story!

[@War_And_Truth]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@ISupportUkraine]

I most certainly agree that there was something more going on than the book(s) and series portrayed. There is just no way to tie a bow on it, court-martial, mutiny, transfer and it's done. I appreciate your thoughts and options. Best regards.

[@GMad-sc4uk]

Sink definitely strikes me as one of those “more than one way to skin a cat” type leaders. I think your analysis for being pure speculation is probably very close to the reality of the situation. Well done once again 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@michaeldean1289]

Hi mate Great work and interesting analysis of the chain of events! Keep up the fantastic stories ❤😊

[@War_And_Truth]

Thanks, will do!

[@MARYREED-nh7gb]

You summation makes a lot more sense than the movie. Sobel was needed by Sink elsewhere for the additional training of the new guys and, as I understand, medical teams. In any case, you don't need someone being a complete a** when you are prepping for the invasion. You do need someone in whom the men have confidence or there will be desertions. Good video.

[@gj1508]

awesome as always, are you planning on doing any videos about Lt Foley and or Lt Peacock? Im sure alot of people would be interested to hear some of the random nuggets of info and stories about them that you find

[@War_And_Truth]

I will be doing a video on every member of Easy Company who featured in the series and some who did not (Mauser for example) There are a lot more details available on some than others.

[@freyoriole0020]

I love your videos so much, always look forward to some deep analysis of the 506th. I think a video of Lt. Thomas Peacock would be great.

[@War_And_Truth]

Definitely will be doing Peacock and every other member we know (and some we dont)

[@JamesBarker-qt3pb]

​@@War_And_TruthPvt Eugene Jackson?

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

OK. I have personal knowledge from my time in the Marines about people stupidly bringing people up on charges. There was a guy - who wrote up his home town buddy - for smoking on post. These two Lt.'s - the platoon Commanders - thought this was great - so they promoted him. That gave this guy - who was an idiot with an 8th Grade Education - the idea that he could get himself promoted by writing people up - so he did - and he was. He got promote to E-5 or Sargent that way. Then one day - he took it to far. There was a Saying - that No Marines were allowed to park in the Exchange Parking lot. What this *_REALLY_* meant - was that Marines who slept in the barracks that the Exchange was on the bottom floor of - were not allowed to park their cars in the Exchange Parking lot - and leave them there - while they were in the barracks - where they slept. The reason was - with all the Marines who lived in the barracks - there would be no spaces left in the Exchange Parking lot for customers - if the Marines who lived in the barracks parked their cars there. THAT was what this was all about. BUT - if you had a Married Marine who loved off base with his family - and he came in to use the Exchange - he WAS allowed as an Exchange Customer to park in the Exchange parking lot while he was using the Exchange. So - this Sargent sees one of the Marines (who lived off base) park his car in the Exchange Parking lot - and tells him _"Marines are not allowed to park in the Exchange Parking lot"_ and that he has to move his car. The guy shopping at the Exchange knew this guy was wrong - and went into the Exchange to buy his stuff. The Sargent Wrote him up. The Col. was going to see this Charge Sheet - which was in fact monumentally stupid. The two Lt.s's who had gotten this guy promoted - realized what a mistake they had made in giving this moron (he was a moron) any authority - and they were literally screaming at him in their office. Because they had got him promoted - the Col. was going to know that THEY were responsible for giving a moron the authority of an NCO. This was going to reflect on these two Lt's - and they *_KNEW_* that. I never saw that Sargent again. I don't know what happened to him but he was gone. Now - with Sobel - remember - that Sobel had ordered his men to cut the farmers fence and let all his cattle loose. Sobel did that and Sobel said that this Major Horton had told him to do that (which of course he hadn't). This type of a decision on Sobel's part - was something everyone in the command was going to know about and THIS would bring Sobel's judgment into question. Remember - that if Sobel fucked up and got a lot of men killed because of his poor judgment - it was going to reflect on his Commanding Officers - for having someone who would make that kind of judgment in Authority as an Officer. They take that shit *_VERY_* seriously. Then - for Sobel to write up Winters for such a monumentally stupid thing - which Winters knew when he requested Trial By Court Marshal - was another case of Sobels poor judgment. It wouldn't matter when the Court Marshal was going to take place - what mattered - was that the Unit CO's knew about it - and there was no way in hell he was NOT going to know about it. *_THEN_* for Sobel's NCO's to turn in their stripes - something they could *_EASILY *_** go to prison for (not shot but yes imprisoned) was like the 3rd Strike. The judgment of a Units NCO's is taken **_*VERY_* seriously by any competent Officer. Having lost the respect of not one but most if not all the units NCO's - for the Unit Commanding Officers to trust that man with an Officers Authority? No way in hell. That would all come back on THEM - and don't think for a second that the things that Sobel had already done - hadn't come back on THEM already. Sobel's Training Record had made THEM look good. His judgment lapses - made THEM look bad. Their reputations and careers were on line because of Sobel. Don't even think otherwise. If a Ship runs aground - the Captain's Career is *_OVER_* . It doesn't matter if he was in bed, asleep like he was supposed to be - and that the Officer of the Deck - was commanding the ship the way he was supposed to be. Oh yes - the OD will hang but the Captain will hang too - for having an Officer under HIS Command - whom he was supposed to have trained to not run the ship aground. Anything and Everything that happens under an Officers Command is *_HIS_* responsibility and he WILL be held accountable for it. Sobel had shown that by being a little martinet - he made a good Training Officer. But - he had also given his Chain of Command reason to question his judgment. No way in hell they would want him going into combat in command of one of their Companies. No way in hell. They - in their judgment - used him for what they knew he was good at - and didn't use him for things where his judgment was questionable. That was THEIR job and they did it. .

[@stevem647]

Well said!

[@doraramos2930]

Thank you for the explanation Bob. I can visualize that situation better.❤

[@dh5516]

I think you've been watching too many Hollywood movies for referencing your tall tales. Promotions do not work like that. Repercussions do no't work like that. I don't believe you served. You don't know how to spell Sergeant.

[@kq2799]

@@dh5516 Welp, azz kissing does work like that and if you're on the end of that BS it has that appearance... let's see yer DD214 sarg!

[@ShermanAviation]

Bob, were you that moron?

[@adamalton2436]

My guess is that Sink was aware of the pending Mutiny and the shortcomings of Sobel. Rather than orchestrate it, he simply let it happen so he’d have a pretense to transfer Sobel out. I’m also guessing the men may have known Sink was sympathetic to their situation but probably were just as surprised how quickly they were reinstated and everything was swept under the rug.

[@KOHTAOMURDERSDEATHISLAND]

Given that the “mutiny” occurred just over 80 years ago now, and given that virtually everyone with firsthand knowledge of the events has already passed away, your speculation is probably as good as anyone’s. Whenever things don’t make sense it is a clear sign that we don’t have all the information required to understand what is happening. It never made much sense to me that the NCO’s got off so very lightly. In civilian life, criminal charges against accused persons are frequently dropped where a prosecutor decides there is insufficient evidence upon which to secure a conviction, saving the resources of the courts. The decision to drop the charges is not made by the police officers who initially pressed the charges. Some of your other viewers might be able to provide insights into the US military law in 1944. I am grateful that you raised this intriguing topic even if we don’t yet have all the answers! 👍👍

[@fathead8933]

There's no true difference between 1944 and 2024. They just added a few more crimes. The CG can shut down a court martial. The issue arises when the "best company commander" in a regiment is having issue with an officer to the level that there is a court martial. You can't sweep it away because both the "gentlemen" refused to settle it. Officer fights can become political fights REALLY quick. This "mutiny" was probably sanctioned. I'm a paratrooper. I'm an Infantryman. The personalities are Alpha in Nature. Everyone is trying to see who's is longer. It's not difficult to coordinate something to stir everyone up with relatively low input if you understand the people you're dealing with are in their 20s and you're in your 40s.

[@geraldgrover1292]

@@KOHTAOMURDERSDEATHISLAND I am a vet. Thank the lord I had a company Captain with common sense. A chicken shit 1st Lt. tried to prefer charges against me for answering him back when he made an asinine order. Capt overrode his charges. Tks Captain

[@dh5516]

I get that it's fun to speculate about this being orchestrated from above, but I don't see it. Certainly there is more to the story, but there would be no way to control the direction something like that could run into, and word would get out eventually anyway. The proverbial can of worms. Colonel Sink would be jeopardizing his own position and respect. His bosses would not look favorably on him setting up officers to fail using NCO's as the pawn pieces. If Sobel was continually screwing up in the field, that is enough grounds for relief. No plot, or permission from above is necessary.

[@tree_side_wind]

Great video. Sink recognized that Sobel was a good “garrison” officer, but no further. The action Sink pursued could easily be understood by some as the needs of the Army are paramount - CPT Sobel’s skills were needed elsewhere. Or, Sink knew Sobel had to be removed to preserve unit cohesion. Compare this to the decision made by CPT Winters when confronted by Lipton regarding LT Dike’s incompetence. Winters didn’t relieve Dike (with Speirs) until it was absolutely necessary. Who made a better, more timely personnel decision Sink or Winters??

[@paulrasmussen8953]

The issue is Winters didn't have the authority to relive dike till it was quite clear of his failings. He knew the issue but couldn't do much.

[@stripe012]

Btw, I like the way you get deeper into what really happened during that time. If you could make another research on records that E Company was the top company in 2nd battalion 506th? And if Sobel is really that bad in reading map and tactical situations..

[@War_And_Truth]

Sobel did have a lot of trouble but it didn't help that his maps were sabotaged.

[@J.B.Martin]

You are onto something sir… love it !

[@War_And_Truth]

Many thanks!

[@refugeeca]

I had some really bad officers in the army, the thought of complaining to their higher ups would be almost unthinkable. I would think there would be a progression of events, like a whole lot of soldiers would request transfers. What would be more interesting is if there was any proof that Sink offered Sobel a transfer to the training role prior to the "mutiny." Too bad we have nothing from Sobel, you'd think such a person would be the type to keep a diary, or at least write letters that might survive. The alleged shunning at the reunion, and his subsequent life implosion, probably will keep anything that exists from seeing the light of day.

[@Broadsword999]

I'd be surprised if Sink would have ordered anyone to mutiny would more likely have come from a senior NCO acting as an intermediary making suggestions. Another possibility is that Sink was already aware of how inept Sobel was in field exercises and that there was widespread distrust amongst the men and NCO's of Easy, this combined with Winters going for the Court Martial and with "the mutiny" gave him an easy out. He could move Sobel sideways eliminating a weaklink in the company, they could get the courts martial dropped (which wouldn't have looked good on Sinks record if it proceeded) and wouldn't disrupt his one of his units in the run up to D Day. Six months sounds like a long time however whilst the 101st was a well trained unit it was still green with few of it's members having seen combat in other units, so removing a number of well liked and trained NCO's could have a significant effect on Easy and by osmosis other company's in the Battalion

[@paulpeterson5214]

----- I think that if Sobel had jumped on D-Day as commander of easy company someone in easy company would have picked up a rifle from a dead german and used it to remove Sobel's head from his shoulders. Sobel lived through the war because he was removed from command! The men of easy company weren't suicidal!

[@HEYBERT1984]

Good points. Something to ponder for sure. 🍻

[@SSG1N571]

From my own service, I have noted that when a Commander loses confidence in one of their officers to lead, the commander removes that officer from their position. Ive seen this from the Command level all the way down to the squadron level. The thing is, the further down into the unit you go, (i.e. CGO vs FGO) the easier it gets to do it. For that reason, I believe it unlikely that Sink orchestrated the NCO mutiny in Easy Company.

[@airplanes42]

There was more to the story but we'll never know the full story

[@Eupher72120]

I too found it improbable that Sink would have entertained this "mutiny" without having first consulted with and counseled Strayer. Why was Strayer not approached by the NCOs to begin with? That fact could very explain the leadership gap with 2nd Bn. Lots of missing stuff here, though I've read many of the books, including Winters', and have seen the series multiple times. Why no mention of the court martial verdict even if it was favorable to Winters? Much more likely is that it was cursorily investigated and thrown out of hand due to the overall chickenshit nature of it. Failure to inspect a latrine? C'mon. Sink would've known that the entire charge was BS and probably would have thrown the damn thing out just on its fundamental stupidity. At the same time, I'm not convinced that Sobel was the creme de la creme that his "reputation" would have presented to Sink. Everybody recognizes an ass-kisser, and while there is no doubt as to Sobel's drive and determination, a healthy dose of ass-kissing would not have been unrecognized by Sink. Ass-kissers often succeed, especially to tyrants and martinets, but just as often they don't.

[@StevieGPT]

I too find it hard to believe that Strayer wasn't an active participant or at least informed to stay out of the mutiny play when in transpired. Could it be that Strayer didn't want to play the role ultimately played by Sink and thus the NCO's bypassed Strayer and went to Sink? Was Winters really out of the loop or was Winters just aware something might be afoot but not provided the specifics? Back to Strayer, did he want to keep Sobel, and by keeping him out of the mutiny, allowed him to retain Sobel at a later date?

[@anthonylautzenheiser3802]

When NJP (article 15) proceedings are started by a Commander, and the accused requests a Courts Martial, it is at the instigating commanders discretion to forward it to higher authority or to dismiss all proceedings. If its moved up the CoC, the accused will be held in the stockade until the first hearing. If the accuser is found to have wrongly accused the accused, then the accuser can face disciplinary action. Sobel knew he was wrong and knew that his feet would be held to the fire for attempting to pull some BS charges. If it had gone to the CM, Sobel could have been found to have mistreated a subordinate , and would be guilty of violating Article 93 and Article 133 of the UCMJ. There was no court martial. Rumors may have caused the NCO's to mutiny, because they hadnt found out Sobel had dropped the issue. Col Sink likely already knew that the charges had been dismissed, and was impressed by the loyalty the men had to Winters. Transferring Sobel was likely the punishment for bring such BS charges against Winters for the sole purpose of removing Winters from Easy Co, because he was jealous of the mens loyalty to Winters.

[@eq1373]

The UCMJ was not in effect at that time

[@anthonylautzenheiser3802]

@@eq1373 The UCMJ is based off the MCM and the Articles of War. The procedures are the same, the UCMJ just consolidated them and excluded duplicate proceedings. I referenced it as the UCMJ rather than listing both the MCM articles and the Articles of War, for brevity and ease in understanding. As all the branches followed the same MCM and Articles of War, one could say they were a "Uniform" "Code" for dispensing "Military Justice". They didnt suddenly make up all these new rules and punishments in 1950. My point is still the same. Your one of those guys the Fat Electrician makes fun of, arent you? Buh, actually..

[@mjr7777]

I always thought the weak point was Sobel's lies about calling and sending a runner. If it could be proven Sobel committed perjury in an attempt to get Winters in trouble Sink had to do something. And as quietly as possible so it didn't splash back on command.

[@wmsd45]

Another excellent video. I think your hypothesis does hold water. I'd like to see you do a deeper dive on Robert Strayer. The BOB series made him out to look very weak and intimates that after Market Garden, Winters was bascically running the 2nd Battalion beacuse Strayer "needed help" Was this engineered by Sink or was this another example of the Ambrose bias towards Winters?

[@War_And_Truth]

Ill be looking more at Strayer in the near future.

[@StardewStartup]

Here are my thoughts, humble as they are, of what I feel may have transpired. For starters, Captain Sobel was a great training officer. Even Bill Guarnere said that his methods made them so tough in combat and so close to one an other. This comment speaks volumes to how good the training was from Sobel. However, if the series showings of his combat exercises is close to the truth of the matter, those scores would have gotten to Sink. The Army is good about letting test scores travel quite freely, especially for company commanders. This, compounded by the treatment of Winters by Captain Sobel and the decision to have a trial by Court Martial by Winters was the final straw. I do think that perhaps the mutiny was a bit of theater. Court Martials do have an investigation portion. The NCOs were in Winter's platoon. So messages like Sobel said he sent about the detail, would have gone through them to Winters. It may have actually been found that they failed to send the message up to Winters. The mutiny was then thought up as a way to "punish" the ones that caused the miscommunication to happen. This may have also been Strayer's doing to help Sobel save face as well. He was a good training officer but command was worried about his command ability in combat and needed to find a way to remove him without it looking like a demotion or a reprimand. After all, the performance of his company was still showing as very capable. This is just one theory I have based on the evidence you presented.

[@terryh8421]

A very plausible analysis!

[@angelocos1]

I think youre onto something. Good work

[@tonylittle8634]

Studying the details of Capt Sobel and First Sergeant Evans, I think Capt Sobel was somewhat of a victim. That might be a stretch but first sergeant Evans had the position to navigate Sobel’s soft spots such as tactical skills. Meaning Evans could have advised Sobel to allow Winters to spread his wings. In theory Sobel could have stayed on board and relied more on Winters. It sounds like Evans and Sobel were the perfect storm for breeding contempt. Your theory on Sink, actually is something to ponder over. Concerning the court martial, keep in mind that this was pre UCMJ, meaning local commanders had far more discretion. As always a good day when I get to see your videos.

[@stuglenn1112]

With the number of people involved in the NCO mutiny I've got to believe it would have leaked out at some point in time if it was staged or they were put up to it.. Also I don't know why Sink or Strayer would feel the need to stage something like this for cover. They could have just sent Sobel on to the jump school, they didn't have to justify it to him or anyone else. The only way this makes sense to me is if Sink's boss would have a problem with moving out Sobel, making Sink think he need some staged Drama to get rid of him..

[@War_And_Truth]

They couldn't do it during a courts martial procedure. At any other time, Sink could have just transferred Sobel. What legal loophole they found to get Winters out of it will probably never be known. Perhaps it did involve unrest of other ranks, I just don't know the laws.

[@petercastaneda5338]

Don't go digging into your heroes past, you'll just find human beings.

[@miguelservetus9534]

It is important that we know the truth. Hero worship is eventually destructive to the worshiping.

[@firstpresbyterianchurch5555]

Great episode. I don't think Sink would have scripted something like that. But what was evident in a few scenes in Episode one of BoB was that just about everyone in the Company was well aware of Sobel's tactical inadequacies. The Camp Mackall scenes all show how everyone was talking about how Sobel had gotten them "killed" in the field exercise, officers and enlisted men alike. 506th Headquarters would certainly have known about the results of the field exercise and would have discussed that in depth. It is also likely that Sink and the regimental higher ups knew of Sobel's lack of tactical "sense" would get many men killed in combat. The Court Martial of Winters was probably one of the last straws for Sink and Strayer, along with the mutiny, and Sink at that point had no choice but to transfer Sobel to Chilton Foliat.

[@soonerarrow]

As a former infantry soldier myself, the thought of mutiny is something I wouldn't have even considered because of the judicial repercussions. Now, if during combat, any soldier that is fighting along side me who puts myself or others in my group unnecessarily and repeatedly at risk of death due to incompetence, then I wouldn't have hesitated to take out the problem if my chain of command wasn't willing to do so. Not necessarily death but certainly an evacuating type injury. However, let me clear about this, if an superior gives you a direct order to do something while engaged in battle, you should do your damnedest to execute that order however life threatening it may be. Doesn't mean you have to launch an attack that will guarantee your early demise but you should use life protecting measures that I believe are your battlefield prerogative while attempting to achieve your objective.

[@scrubsrc4084]

Winding up in the path finder could also be seen as not really a demotion or punishment.

[@trekker3468]

Leaders getting relieved was a fact of life during ww2. Division had to have time a lot of time on their hands to be intersested a latrine focused court marital. Why would a regimental commander put on a show unless they were concerned about division.

[@leemaxwell8228]

Your theory is a plausible alternative explanation. We’ll never know for sure now.

[@localbod]

Thank you for posting another interesting video. I think your idea of how things might have played out isn't outlandish and certainly makes sense given what actually occurred. I have a question. Wouldn't Strayer have been a Lt. Colonel as opposed to a full Colonel like Sink was?

[@War_And_Truth]

Yes Strayer wasn't promoted to full colonel until late 1945.

[@jimbokilo]

I totally believe it may have been planned. My grandad was a Staff Sgt in the Commando on D Day. He already had 5 years in the Royal Marines before the war and was a founding member of the SAS, while also working for Commando HQ in Intelligence Combined Ops. So take that experience into account... He had a super green 18 year old kid put in as his LT last minute. This kid had basically "bought" his Commission because his mummy knew some powerful people, apparently he barely passed Commando training too and they were trying to get rid of him before Overlord... Anyways, they hit the beach and the shells and MG fire open up, this kid orders Grandad to tell the men to dig in and find cover (the beach they were on had no cover). Grandad told him they HAD to move in as fast as they could or theyd all die as arty was zeroing in on them. The kid LT freaked out, told him to obey orders and threw insults at my grandad (pressumably class based ones). I cant remember what the kid said, but Grandad said his turned around and knocked him out, then told two of his privates to drag him up the beach with them. When they got to the bunker line and cleared it, they told the kid if he reported what happened, they cut off his fingers and mail them to his mother (as steiking a superior was a death sentence)... But had my grandad not done it, they certainly would have all died. Their unit took heavy losses already that day. The commando worked as an independent service to the regular army, so the guys in there didnt really care about rank as they did in the regulars, but it was still a serious situation similar to the BOB mutiny. Do you do what you are told, or do you do what is right. Shortly after this event when they were going through the hedge rows, grandad order them to keep their heads down as he knew there were snipers after doing recon, this same LT kid, ignored him, look over their cover and got his head blown off.... Listen to your NCOs and experienced troops.

[@MarkBluck]

I actually think Strayer ochristrated the mutiny. Stayer would have know what Sink's thoughts were concerning Sobel. So Strayer arranged the mutiny knowing that no one was really going g to get punished and Sobel would go the parachute training school where he would excel at.

[@War_And_Truth]

Its possible. His absence from the whole event speaks volumes.

[@justme8340]

At times like this I recall what the Police Chief in Millers Crossing said… “Jesus Tom! I was speculating about a hypothesis! You know I don’t know nothin’, Tom!”

[@nicholaspagano8438]

I suspect the facts surrounding these alleged incidents have been highly embellished upon as a movie. As a former military man I don't believe any group OF NCOs would risk their stripes [or any thing else] for the sake of a platoon leader or a company commander.

[@frankpinmtl]

They were not risking their lives for Winters, as you state 6:15. They were risking their lives because they thought that Sobel would get them killed in combat. 1:00 "There were officers in the 506, who were more unpopular." Do tell, who are they? Did their NCO's also visit Sink and risk getting shot?

[@War_And_Truth]

Ill be doing a video on Speirs and his battalion commander Col Turner in the near future. That makes Winters and Sobel look pretty tame. Also Lt Peacock was very unpopular.

[@frankpinmtl]

@@War_And_Truth I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there is unpopular / not-liked, then there are guys that you risk getting shot at in a court martial, to try to get rid of. That's a huge difference. Were the NCO's of Easy just that militant? Is there a case to be made that they were just insubordinate? In the series Liebgott discusses fragging Sobel, something that was widely reported about in Nam, but not WW2. IMO, that is very telling and pretty heavy, if it went down like that. Another point to ponder (and perhaps compare): All the Airborne divisions were presented as the most highly trained, most disciplined and best fighters the US had. I think you've mentioned how the Germans were fearful if they found out they were up against the 101st. And here the NCO's are, doing what they did... Were there any other units, in the regular forces, that had company NCO's mutiny against their company commanders?

[@edalice1926]

I read reports that 1SG Evans was really the culprit in the harassment of Easy Company members and him and Sobel were two of the same kind. Sobel was a pain with the other company officers in the 506th PIR. One night during maneuvers, Sobel and Evans decided on gathering the weapons of Easy Company members. During this time, they got lost and instead took the weapons of another company in their battalion. When finding their way back to Easy Company, they realized that they took the wrong weapons while the other company commander had arrived on the scene with his men angered at Sobel and Evans’ actions. This lead towards LTC Strayer be more frustrated against Sobel.

[@War_And_Truth]

Yes I have covered that incident extensively.

[@mrgnr-smith387]

Having seen something similar before deployments, I suspect time may have filtered away something key related to this incident. To me, that would be Strayer’s part It might be he was oblivious to what was going on but I highly doubt it I suspect he was sick and tired of hearing the rumours maybe out loud (low key) grumbling within Easy. But he had a problem in Sobel he must’ve recognized, even if he liked him Sobel was outstanding at individual training, but as they went into Bn collective training and higher Sobel’s weaknesses as a tactical leader must’ve been obvious to all outside Easy For that reason I suspect Strayer permitted the Snr NCO’s to see Sink, thinking they had the Bn CO as top cover, they launched Sink probably knew some of the background but wouldn’t of liked to hear the message, it would smack of disloyalty more than a mutiny per se. Something that could’ve been sorted within the Bn, now it was his mess It would explain the leniency which wouldn’t be the case had it been a real mutiny

[@paladin0654]

7:15 FYI relieving a company CO and putting him on battalion staff is NOT a promotion: it's a move to bring the officer under more supervision, visibility and less autonomy.

[@anthonymunoz6013]

I can on add this to the discussion. I would have taken a bullet for my 1st Company Commander. He had some academy experience but not WP. He was mission centered but valued his people such that they would over-perform for him. The man who replaced him was as about as opposite as you could get. He constantly demeaned his men such that there was constant grumbling. Contrary to my 1st CO, I would not have taken a bullet for him. He was on his own. And we deployed for war with this man. He could do no wrong and we could do no right. I have little doubt that when the unit came under direct fire, he would have been the 1st casualty. The kind of man fragging was likely invented for. I like to think that I was exceptionally motivated. He sapped that motivation. It was hard to continue to be motivated and reflect this to the soldiers under my care but for the sake of my soldiers, it was needed. Fortunately for me, an opportunity was given to me which gave me an out. I was originally enlisted and later became an officer. I have experienced great officers, mediocre officers and broken ones. Good officers can take a handful of men and do incredible things. Bad ones can take battalions of men and lose them all. There is plenty of documentation to illustrate this. And yet, even bad ones can have a place where they can serve the greater good. Combat requires exceptional leaders both commissioned and non commissioned. The funny thing about being exceptional is the very word except. Let that sink in.

[@johnnydiamondsmusic1673]

As former British Army I can’t imagine all our Platoon Sgts whom we all followed and respected being replaced just before going on operations. As a Cpl I would have found that difficult to sell to the boys I was responsible for. Would have caused a massive amount of animosity to the senior commander.

[@War_And_Truth]

Thanks for your input, its interesting to hear your prospective.

[@-_-----]

Yeah, I had similar thoughts about this since I was a kid, and quadruply so since you started posting your research. - Even when I was young (~12ish) and watching B.O.B., my life experience indicated that authorities NEVER give in to "shows of righteous indignation", like the "mutiny". - I also noticed the gap between "...Line you up against a wall and SHOT!!!" and "Raney, you're busted back to Private" seemed way-too-improbably-large. The one detail that shows the whole movie script in nonsense is the fact that the "It's only because we're on the eve of the greatest invasion ever" line is completely false, if there was over six months before the drop. That was pointed to in the movie as the circumstance that forced Sink's hand and saved the mutineers... with that disproven, the entire drama narrative falls apart. I think your theory is 100% right, and that Sink communicated his tacit approval not *DIRECTLY* to the mutineers, but through an appropriate screen of muddle and grapevine. I will also go so far as to say that this is SO obvious (once you follow the research, as you have), that I'm pretty sure most of the people involved figured this out shortly after it happened, and have all participated in an ego-sustained silence about it.

[@jonb3311]

Was Sobel the only US officer removed from his post prior to D-Day? Many poorly performing British officers were sacked or in the case of Special Forces, they were RTUd. I cannot believe Sobel was the only poor officer who lost his job.

[@KOHTAOMURDERSDEATHISLAND]

Good question!

[@altonbunnjr]

@@jonb3311 I don’t remember his name but there was a U.S. general that got shipped back to the states by Ike because he said too much at some party or other function.

[@jonb3311]

@@altonbunnjr More than one! Henry J. F. Miller, Big mouth! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_J._F._Miller Lloyd Fredendall - useless in command en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Fredendall

[@GeorgiaBoy1961]

Dozens of senior officers - many generals among them - were reduced to their permanent grades (demoted) and sent home by General Eisenhower in the run-up to D-Day - for talking too much about their work and otherwise being poorly-disciplined with classified matters, handling of classified documents, and so on. And the number of more-junior officers who were censured, transferred, or relieved had to be far-larger, simply on the basis of the enormous numbers of personnel involved and the stakes involved. Armies are different animals during wartime than they are in peacetime. Lots of deadwood can accumulate during peacetime, i.e., incompetent or marginally-competent people being promoted over their heads, cronyism, careerism, ticket-punchers, and over-adherence to regulations concerning seniority, are just some of the problems which plague peacetime military formations. It takes war or the threat of war to allow the sort of winnowing out of the deadwood and hangers-on that is necessary for a combat-effective force. Often, the also-rans lead men into combat and have to lose a battle and get a lot of men killed or wounded before they can be relieved. General Lloyd Fredendall was the CO of the U.S. Army forces when the Germans routed them at the Kasserine Pass in February 1943, had been a well-regarded senior officer prior to the debacle - but after the loss, his name and Kasserine Pass are forever linked. His previous assignments had not prepared him for the job, but he was senior and in line for the promotion, so he got it. The harsh and unforgiving conditions of combat brought out the best and the worst in men, and senior officers were not different, and certainly not junior officers, either. Combat had a way of exposing whatever faults or deficits a man possessed. In the case of Herbert Sobel, it is fortunate that his defects as a field commander came to light in training, instead of actual combat- when his mistakes might have cost lives or military setbacks.

[@andycraddock7677]

Your series about the BoB continues to be of great quality and well-researched IMO. I still don’t know what to think about Captain Sobel. On the one hand, when his service was needed, he volunteered and lead with distinction one of the toughest units in the Army. Captain Sobel deserves credit for that. Personally, and this is just opinion based upon a LOT of 101st/E. Company reading, Captain Sobel seems to have struggled with his inner self. Portrayals of him as being petty and even cruel are so frequent in E. Co. memoirs that I am inclined to give them some credibility. The reason he subjected then Lt. Winters to court martial seems so petty and trivial that it could have been contrived by Sobel. I don’t know. I still am not clear about the basic facts surrounding Lt. Winter’s court martial. For example, was he in fact quartered with an English family that had no telephone? Did no “runner” truly reach him? Even the autobiographies of the principles don’t make this clear. Was Captain Sobel envious of the fact (perception) that Lt. Winters was liked by the men, and he despised? Or was that possible motive for Sobel’s decision pure Hollywood fiction? Again, I don’t know. Perhaps it’s best that we just honor the memory, legacies and service of these men, because even after a celebrated book, miniseries, numerous memoirs and even European BoB tours, much about the relationships between these men remains speculative and subjective.

[@patnor7354]

Or maybe Sobel recognized that Winters was actively undermining him with his popularity. WInters in his book is great at pulling down the men around him to make himself look better. Why not the same situation with Sobel where there was far more to gain...

[@andycraddock7677]

@@patnor7354 : You make an excellent point. Thank you. I see no reason why your opinion or POV is any less credible- or possible- in explaining the relationship between these two men. I too noticed that tendency in Major Winter’s books. Have you ever thought about how Captain Sobel, and what was believed true about his personality and character, were pitched to Mr. Schwimmer, and the ways that must have influenced him in how he approached his portrayal of Captain Sobel in the miniseries? Dr. Ambrose was still living at that point, and based upon BoB (the book), I can’t imagine that he didn’t influence Mr. Schwimmer. Dr. Ambrose clearly had opinions about all these people. IMO Mr. Schwimmer’s acting and portrayal was brilliant, but how true was it to the real man? Captain Sobel was long deceased even by the time of the miniseries, so he was not afforded the opportunity to be consulted personally. And I am not aware that he ever wrote his own memoirs, so perhaps the information Mr. Schwimmer based his performance on was quite one-sided. After all, Major Winters was of course still living and it’s always been my understanding that he was heavily consulted for the miniseries and was frequently on-set.

[@mootpointjones8488]

So much was badly done in the TV series that your theory could be true but alas we'll never know, thanks for the upload 👍

[@MrSheckstr]

I managed to remain in contact with one of my drill sgts through a common home state and common christian denomination ….. we discussed several issues and captain sobel was one of them…. He said Captain sobel was a “cross eyed Gunsmith” capable of Forging a weapon, incapable of wielding said weapon….. EASY company excelled in preliminary training, then time and time again started to fall behind when put through battle simulations with Sobel in command …. Could winters have been able to be a harsh taskmaster during initial training, weeding out the less than fully committed and prepare the men for the harsh conditions? One cannot know that , all one knows is that Winters lead easy company, he lead easy company with soldiers from other units, and he lead easy company with replacements

[@gerhardwuhrer6764]

One of the most important scenes is when Sobel and Winters meet at the end - and Sobel tried to oversee Winters in the jeep. And then Winters "We honor the rank not the man". I think both have had hardship, near death, friends and comrades die, is'nt a very petty gesture to do that? The one was major the other captain? In addition it was a grave humiliation for Sobel in front of the German POWs and the general? Comradeship is something different...

[@War_And_Truth]

Unfortunately that scene was complete fiction as well. Winters (and Malarkey) ran into Sobel in a street in Mourmelon and winters stopped him and asked for a salute.

[@gerhardwuhrer6764]

@@War_And_Truth yes, I know - and it is realy disturbing to bring that at the end in that circumstances. By the way, what about the behavior of the senior officers of Sobel. They could have put him aside in Tacoa for a little chat regarding how he treated the men in Easy company. "Look Herbert, you are doing a great job in training and drilling your men, but..."

[@ohinek007]

In his book, Don Malarkey stated, that it was Winters, who orchestrated mutiny.

[@War_And_Truth]

He had his suspicions at least. He could be right although Malarkey got a bit wrong in his book with events where he wasn't directly involved.

[@banhammer7243]

Is the channel suddenly named "War & Speculation"?

[@KevinSmith-yh6tl]

I'll say one thing. After hearing your theory about the this matter, without the Hollywood BS, I find your explanation the most probable.

[@charlesgantz5865]

This all sounds very Machiavellian, and completely unnecessary. Sink had absolute control over the people under his command. He could, and did, move people around or even out of the Regiment. A sham mutiny was not needed for this. Also, no commander would ever orchestrate a mutiny. If feelings in his command were bad enough to have a mutiny, there was also a danger that the mutiny would spread. That is one of the reasons mutinies are dealt with so quickly. As far as getting Sobel out of the way, he wasn't gotten out of the way very far. He only spent a few months at Chilton, then came back to regiment here he was eventually promoted to staff, commanding regiment supply, a pretty important position, and one where he would have interacted with Sink on a regular basis, if not every day. Also, Sobel ended the war as a major. What I think is more likely is that the Sergeants were doing their normal griping, and they decided one day that Sobel's shortcomings, real or not, should be dealt with. So, in a case of "it seemed like a good idea at the time moment", decided to march off to Sink. Sink would not have wanted to get rid of all those Sergeants because, as well as having just finished training all of them, punishing them would have just brought more attention to their action. It also would have brought unwanted attention from Division. The 506th wasn't very high on Divisions wish list, having been made part of Division very late in the game. It was safer just to let it go.

[@War_And_Truth]

He couldn't transfer Sobel out while there were courts martial proceedings. That's the hole point.

[@charlesgantz5865]

@@War_And_Truth That's true, but I was saying the court martial was unnecessary since Sink could have transferred Sobel out at any time.

[@War_And_Truth]

@@charlesgantz5865 I think Sink got caught out before he was ready to transfer Sobel. I would say he had Chilton Foliat penciled in for Sobel long before but It wasn't open yet.

[@Bumper776]

Speculation on my part but I have to wonder, especially after the fence cutting event, if there was some sabotage and undermining of Sobel's command because he had been such a strict disciplinarian? Surely, he was trained in basic map reading and could read a compass.

[@War_And_Truth]

Ed Tipper used to sabotage his maps.

[@2ID_Doc]

I’ve wondered if Sobel had stayed in command through D-Day and the chaos that followed if he wouldn’t have been “killed in action” by the NCOs of Easy Company? With all the deaths there were few if any autopsy’s performed to determine the bullet caliber that killed him. He was shot, it was verified by the others in the unit, graves registration takes the body and makes arrangements. Depending on how badly they disliked him reported him MIA presumed dead, much like the CO of Easy Company on D-Day. I wear a POW bracelet for a SF NCO in Vietnam. He was trapped in an open field with a dead RTO. The Vietnamese troops he led saw him at least 2 head shots but due to the ambush they walked into his body was not recovered. A return the next found no body, no grave. So they could concoct a story similar for Sobel. His portrayal in the series made him a villain, yet I’ve read his children loved him. However the end of his life was cruel & inhumane.

[@your_royal_highness]

I had no idea Sobel jumped on D-Day

[@2104dogface]

he never did , that is bad info all the 506th paperwork has him coming ashore with Div's seaborn element to bring in needed supplies

[@War_And_Truth]

Ed Mauser was with him on D-Day. Nothing to do with paperwork. You keep saying this but you haven't provided any proof.

[@2104dogface]

@@War_And_Truth neither have you aside from Ed 's interview , do you have a Stick # or name of the plane or ANY witness that put him on the airfield for take off. Joe Muccia has all the Reg. paperwork (some he got from Winters )and interviews he did with the vets including Ed Mauser who spent time with the guys in E/506th Reenacted at events. Nothing as him listed as Jumping

[@War_And_Truth]

@@2104dogface There were a lot of errors made on D-day stick rosters. Ed Shames also does not appear on a roster. If they were a late addition or 18th-19th in the stick they were likely left off it.

[@2104dogface]

@@War_And_Truth the 506th Reg Combat Journal has Sobel listed as part of the Seaborne Element, his Bronze Star was for insuring the flow of supplies to the Reg. no invasion star on his jump wing, only invasion arrowhead for his ribbon, and almost every trooper who spent time on the ground in Normandy got a CIB.

[@OlJarhead]

Interesting perspective. I agree that he punishments handed down were pretty much a slap on the wrist for such an offense… if it was genuine. Given the actual amount of time it happened before D-Day… I believe you have a very plausible scenario.

[@alekhidell7068]

Have you heard of the book DeathBySocialism by author JM Rock?

[@War_And_Truth]

No ill look it up.

[@HandyMan657]

I have, I read it. Doesn't the heritage foundation suggest it as reading?

[@alekhidell7068]

It’s definitely a worthwhile read by a fellow admirer of Easy Company. I highly recommend it

[@danielschein6845]

Sink probably knew perfectly well that Sobel was a great trainer but a terrible leader. If I were in his shoes I’d probably have had plans for months to move Sobel to a job that took advantage of his talents. The mutiny was probably a very inconvenient irritant whose effect at most was to change the timing of plans already in place.

[@quasar8898]

Hmm...could Sobel have been aware that Sink might try to remove him from command of Easy and trumped up Winters Court Marshall just to prevent it..........Thus forcing Sink to create the Mutiny....

[@twilightroach4274]

I’d add to this subject, that in the lead up to D-Day, that all of these men were trained to an extremely high level. Thus busting down a few sergeant’s isn’t a huge issue, the military command structure is built with casualties in mind (not pretty but true), particularly with the invasion imminent, because quite simply, once in the field, with casualties mounting and replacements needed. It t wouldn’t very take long, for all of the demoted sergeant’s to get field promotions, back up to sergeant’s and or probably higher ranks.

[@davidrendall7195]

Sink wouldn't have needed just cause to remove Sobel, he's not an employee. A simple poor fitness report would have sufficed. You don't make full bird colonel in the peacetime army like Sink without a keen and rapier like agility with a fitness report. The US Army of 1941-1944 was expanding very rapidly, lots of officers being pushed to their Peter Ceiling, they were constantly looking out for those who could and couldn't get things done. Sink could have raised genuine questions or even personal opinions about his individual fieldcraft and use of resources and tactics. He could even have found some faint praise with a 'highly recommended for zeal and originallty, in training environments' even 'recommended for promotion to battalion staff'. Wouldn't even have harmed Sobel's reputation or career.

[@merryjane7558]

I think they were ordered to secrecy as well. That is the reason their stories have remained unchangingly vague, but consistently the same, all those years. And why not a single one elaborated in their written accounts. Edit: spelling

[@paulkweiner6577]

Wow ! I’m buying your theory. Makes a lot of sense to me !

[@boltvanderhuge8711]

Thumbnail should say "Sinking Sobel"; missed opportunity

[@tscully1504]

History is a very slippery thing to get hold of and requires a truly dogged determination to always aim towards checking and rechecking the narratives trying to squeeze out one more ounce of true accuracy.

[@swk38]

now, if sobel was still easy commander would he have met mehans fate? or would winters still be in mess duty?

[@War_And_Truth]

Sobel would have died in that C47

[@jimmyhinzy575]

Question if you know this, which platoons did all the Sergents come from? The ones who mutiny.

[@onraymondhickey5149]

They found away to get rid of court martial ,in the book by Babe & Bill they ripped their stripes off in front of Sobel and he went nuts . I also read Winters told them not to do it at a meeting before they did it.

[@War_And_Truth]

I covered both of those points.

[@lonewolf77782]

Respectfully, it's a reach to consider that Sink 'conspired" with Winters or the NCO's to remove Sobel or that they discussed Sobel's removal or the courts martial itself. It is likely, however, that Sink was looking for a way to remove Sobel from a field command all on his own. The upper command would have been totally aware of Sobel's ineptitude in the field. A courts martial can be dismissed by the judges themselves or the JAG officer can decline to prosecute it. Anything else is theater. A dismissal is the only answer...nothing else.

[@War_And_Truth]

Definitely only ever speculation on my part. Strayer seems to have played a bigger part than I originally thought after reading his letters.

[@lonewolf77782]

@@War_And_Truth I agree that it is likely Strayer was part of the discussion.

[@comment8767]

I don't think that a group of NCO's requesting to be demoted meets the definition of "mutiny". They did not seek to operate outside of the structure of command authority, but rather merely made a request. If their request had been denied, and they refused to continue as NCOs anyway, that would be a mutiny. But that is not what happened. As for former 71D legal clerk and a graduate of the U.S. Army Legal Clerk School at Fort Benjamin Harrison, Indiana, I write with great authority on this topic.

[@mikecooper7978]

I think Sink was going to replace Sobel anyway, which he could do on his own. He wouldn’t need an elaborate ruse to do it. As to the mutiny, jumping the chain of command is a huge no no in the military. The fact that they bypassed Sayer is a big deal. I imagine Sink went easy on them because he actually agreed with their opinion on Sobel’s combat leadership failings.

[@ZDiddy7777]

They were NOT risking their lives for Winters, they were risking their lives for all the men who'd hafta follow Sobel into battle and cause they believed it was in the company's overall best interests

[@SantomPh]

Sink could move Sobel any time he wanted, although replacing a company CO is difficult as Winters would face with Dike in Bastogne. Sobel hadn't had combat yet so there was no problem known about him there. In fact he earned a Bronze Star on his first jump for destroying an MG nest with random paras he collected. The real problem was the NCOs disrupting the planned invasion of Europe. Sobel had to be moved on but without causing confusion elsewhere in the regiment. The jump school for non combatants was the perfect place to put him. The punishments for the NCO leaders was a slap on the wrist since they would be literally facing bullets not long from then anyway. Did Sink script the exit of Sobel? not at all, he made an executive decision to keep a trainer of his capability in action while putting the men in the field as planned.

[@reflectedpower]

Why would Col. Sink need an elaborate excuse to transfer Sobel? I wouldn't guess Sink orchestrated it but went easy on the non-coms because he understood their reasons.

[@War_And_Truth]

He wouldn't have, but court martials make things complicated.

[@HazTech91]

So I’m not in the military buuuttttt. I can say with certainty that there is way more to the story than what was told. But there’s a certain aspect of those men, that however it happened, they were explicitly told not to say what happened no matter how much time had passed. Your theory though is probably spot on. Sink was a brilliant leader. He noticed that solbel wasn’t very good in the field. He acknowledged that he was excellent in training the men. He knew he’d have to figure something out to give the men the best chance they could get.

[@War_And_Truth]

Glad you agree with my thoughts on it.

[@michaelmccotter4293]

Always felt like there was a hole in the movie storyline.

[@littleguy6753]

My theory: Winters never wrote about it because he probably played a huge part in getting Sobel fired and didn't want to be assigned any blame. (If I got away with a crime, I would never tell people about it.)

[@War_And_Truth]

Not like Keefe D who wrote a book about killing Tupac. Guy is in prison now.

[@StanHere1]

Let's Get a Grip HERE! Col Sink surely knew everything of any importance regarding his assigned Company's ""Health & Management"". He allowed Sobel a free hand within the UCMJ as it then was in 1942-on, to BEST TRAIN all the men. He surely knew Sobel's personality & potential combat limitations, BUT popularity was NOT a valued trait UP UNTIL Sobel stupidly / counter-productively went way overboard with Winters. Unfortunately, it would seem that the ENTIRE chain-of-command between Sink and EZCompany was DEAF to ANY obvious, honest & growing discontent within the EXPERIENCED NCO ranks. Lastly, it's TOO BAD little of nothing is known where Strayer was throughout this

[@hhasslinger9601]

Why did you add a fake mustache for the old picture of Sobel?

[@jbjones1957]

Winters did it; no joke

[@War_And_Truth]

Yes the other comment is correct. Winters scribbled it on and sent it back home. He must have written a lot about Sobel.

[@hhasslinger9601]

@War_And_Truth Wow, didn't realize that.Thanks!

[@jeffbosworth8116]

I doubt is was scripted, but I certainly see Sink beaing eager to take advantage of the situation.

[@geekstradamus1548]

The COL would not need to orchestrate anything to “justify” removing Sobel. Throughout my war time career (2001 - 2014) I saw many times where Company level leadership was changed at will for poor performance. Once I saw every LT, one PSG, the CPT and 1SG removed. The XO remained, while our XO replaced their CPT, and new leadership was rotated in. No one had to “justify” anything. To be clear, this wasn’t due to any violation or accusation, but simply for piss-poor performance. I doubt it was any harder to make such a change in 1944.

[@War_And_Truth]

Thanks for your service and comment.