The Beautiful Stupidity of Shin Megami Tensei IV Apocalypse

[@BlackfangDragon]

The weirdest stuff is there’s like, LITERALLY IMPORTANT LORE, in the artbook that isn’t mentioned in the game that recontextualizes some things in Apocalypse. There’s an actual short story about Hallelujahs mom in the artbook and how his admiration for the Ashura Kai is some really fudging twisted irony(it’s implied they killed her to get him) and the only parts of it he actually liked were thanks to his demon daddy. Oh and Mastema drops baby Nanashi in Tokyo, yet he has ZERO role in the game. Completely gone.and all that’s left is a bunch of mass produced Mastemas in the last dungeon. Honestly it still tickles me The DLC where Mikado is overrun by the Demon Gene is Dagda route only. Cause it’s the only route that touches on why literature turns people in Mikado into demons which the mangas also touch on.

[@pigcatapult]

so why DOES literature turn people into demons?

[@BlackfangDragon]

@@pigcatapult Demon Gene.

[@BerenElendilAPGaming]

@@BlackfangDragon I love how simultaneously much and little that explains.

[@CycloneFN]

For every Yin, there is a Yang.

[@genokugel]

For every Shin there is a Megami 🗣️🗣️

[@trickortriq]

Shin Megami Tensei IV Apocalypse is really cool Andrew Hussie really outdid himself this time

[@criss3619]

This took me out 😭😭😭

[@chargemankenia]

Don't talk

[@camillaquelladegliaggettiv4303]

Genuinely cracked into laughter irl, good fucking job lmao

[@JadenRockz99]

Apocalypse is my favorite game in the Shin Megami Tensei because it's a really good Persona game.

[@Davvg]

it’s definitely trying to be but I don’t know if you can call it a “good” persona game

[@JadenRockz99]

​@@Davvg It is a good persona game minus the persona aspect. If people called IV an SMT if 1.5, they would probably agree.

[@Neonlight3934]

​@@DavvgI use to believe Persona games where like this. Then I played the Persona series as a part of the Megaten Marathon and I feel ashame. Those games are genuenly a diferent feel that have nothing to do with SMT, the characters are actually develop and believable high scoolers and are somehow less weird about tropes despite having fucking Teddie and Morgana in the team. Obviusly with this I mean the Neo Persona games, classic Persona has a very Devil Summoner feel to it.

[@substance.abuser]

Yeah and they’re not even demons in persona 😂 more like stands from jojos either way smt is superior to persona

[@Lechuguza]

My fucking sides. I didn't see that one coming

[@ThrillingDuck]

Lol dw bro, the anarchy ending doesn't make almost zero sense, it makes actually zero sense. "I killed all my friends (and destroyed all life in the world) because they were kind of annoying" is the most sociopathic justification I have ever heard.

[@BlackfangDragon]

Nanashi being a potential edgelord is actually part of the lore. He can literally reject Dagdas offer at the beginning of the game is what leads to regular IV Neutral ending. Meaning out of pure, petty spite Nanashi will stay dead and let his adopted sister be eaten. Every bad ending in the game is just him spiting others. Chaos(Lucifer even mocks them about this since he’s merged with the Great Spirit of SPITE), trying to join Divine Powers, hell even the bad ending you can get in the final battle with YHVH where you embrace friendship Nanashi flat out rejects Clone Dagdas attempts to revive him when YHVH sets out to kill him out of mercy for choosing to obey YHVH. It’s honestly not surprising Dagda chose him considering he will do stuff for incredibly spiteful reasons in the game.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@BlackfangDragon Those are actually really good points lol. Man, fuck Nanashi. And the writing of Apocalypse in general.

[@pale_wolf]

Actually it’s the ending the devs prefer, even though none of the endings are ever canon. I only learned this after getting the artbook though lol, but it does actually make sense. The point is that “bonds” can actually hold you back. So by Nanashi severing all his ties he reached his full potential and can now create his own reality for the universe.

[@ThrillingDuck]

@@pale_wolf That’s really interesting, but it still isn’t portrayed or justified very well within the game’s design and writing. The companions (from what I remember - it’s been a while) are only ever portrayed as a positive force in both story and gameplay, and the player doesn’t receive any noteworthy surge in power for slaughtering them. If they wanted to tie anarchy in with the game’s themes properly, then there should have been some sort of clear drawback to keeping the companions around.

[@pale_wolf]

@@ThrillingDuck I think that’s by design, they didn’t want “Anarchy” to overwhelmingly feel like a canon ending either. But the ideas are kinda implied within the game with how you’re pretty much treated as a puppet and tool the entire game. And by the end you’re just reduced to being a random dead kid again lol, and had always done the biddings of others rather than you making your own choices. They were likely going for a metaphor for life there. But the biggest thing is SMT is always about perception, what one person views as good another can view the same thing as bad. There are no absolutes.

[@nearsomecat]

Asahi has to come back to life because that is the name of the series

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

How come all the sequels with amazing gameplay have mid stories (5, 4a) but all the games with mid gameplay have god tier stories (Strange Journey, Soul Hackers)

[@Kyler360]

i'm playing this game for the first time now and that boss theme goes absolutely balistic

[@panth3r072]

That Dagda accent segment had me rolling! XD

[@kyokugenryudisciple9349]

Funny thing. I pictured of Finn Balor saying that.

[@smariofreak6489]

The only thing I really remember about this game was the dlc that involved the other protagonists from the other games, and then the crippled man stood up, pulsing with absolute absurd amounts of power. Shine on you crazy bastard Stephen.

[@poploah4405]

I have no idea what a homestuck is and i have been advised not to know

[@Dinker27]

Homeslice really went banana-cakes in this review, huh? Jk, jk. But he's right about some of those story points. I wish we had a Divine Path route. 😭

[@nickwoodfin2690]

It seems like the ending would have been improved by forcing you to sacrifice yourself for the benefit of everyone else or turning on everyone and taking everyone out to preserve your life. It would give the good ending weight and make the bad ending make more sense. Seems like an obvious fix I'm surprised they didn't make, but I haven't actually played apocalypse yet so I might be talking out of my ass.

[@bogbeach]

It and FF12 live in the same, awkward camp of "the gameplay is genuinely fantastic and the ideas should be stolen from them more often... But the story is a mess that can easily be ignored, but the characters are also rad sometimes". Awfully specific but it's weird that it happened twice.

[@rift3487]

Apocalypse is the home slice of smt that went bananacakes

[@BAIGAMING]

Great review and retrospective! I really enjoy the gameplay, it's the pinnacle of SMT gameplay alongside SMT V. I like the 2D demons allowing for over 400 demons in this game, so many skills and builds you can do, and the final boss is very hard but fair, hardest final boss next to Strange Journey Redux. I think that the lore, worldbuilding, factions and story is good, but the actual dialog for characters was poorly made and the game is a bit too upbeat for a post apocalypse. I really liked learning about Akira/Aquila, Akira was from Tokyo and then moved to Mikado and became a leader there, you'll see he named Mikado's towns after Tokyo's intersections and changed the names slightly (like how Akira's name became Aquila) and there's a time difference something like 6 months in Tokyo is 6 years Mikado, I forget the exact rate. I liked the factions themselves too but the character reps from them are too friendly like you said. I did like seeing Flynn as a supporting character too and that twist was interesting. Didn't scare me because I'm used to detailed close-ups in Nickelodeon cartoons. I guess changing Nozomi's character so drastically after the original SMT4 was bad too, Navarre made sense but definitely not Nozomi. The routes in 4A were really good too, I'm surprised they had a dark route that really makes you feel bad. SMT4 actually had routes with route exclusive quests and new game plus quests, but I don't think many people did them and the developers removed them in 4A and 5. I liked the dungeon designs in 4 and 4A too, except 4A's final level though! Edit: One last thing is I always enjoyed how Strange Journey handles the plot and alignment reps, more SMT games should do that moving forward.

[@cyrus2395]

SMTIVA: the game that has a bad ending because megaten games are supposed to have bad endings Another banger vid by stel

[@athorem]

What on earth happened to the writing of mainline SMT games after the original SMT IV released? This franchise has become a parody of itself with Apocalypse and SMT V

[@daltonharmon1018]

You take that back about toki, her instant kill pierce move is god tier in random encounters.

[@nerdymidwesterner3662]

another groundbreaking revelation by stel

[@marcrics]

Apocalypse over IV for gameplay. IV over Apocalypse for story.

[@archdiangelo7930]

I personally really like Apocalypse. I found the characters engaging and the story captivating. This game made me give a shit about Navarre, he went from being a classist asshole to my little green best buddy! I found the game's message about finding strength in other people and using that solidarity to refute the lies and manipulations of established hierarchies to be really poignant. Yeah, the Dagda route wasn't as good, but I didn't play this game for the Dagda route, I played it to kill God with all my friends! I didn't have the same expectations going into it that I did with IV, and I think a lot of people who dislike the game did and were rightfully disappointed when Apocalypse turned out so different. It's a different experience, but it's an experience I value regardless. That doesn't invalidate anyone else's more negative opinions of the game of course, and there are still plenty of things to criticize, but as someone who genuinely loves this game I felt I had an obligation to inject a bit of positivity into the comments. It's not perfect, but I still enjoyed it.

[@GoldenJohn70]

It really sucks because if they made just a few different desicions in the story it could have been a really dumb over the top good story, but now it's just dumb, and not very good, and that sucks. Also I hate Nanashi's yee yee ass haircut

[@Krow621]

Tbh in terms of combat, Apocalypse is an upgrade and imo the combat in the series. A lot of what makes Apocalypse is good is ripped straight from SMT IV so in my eyes it can never be a downright terrible game. The story left a bit to be desired, a few cool moments here and there but ultimately dragged down by dumb moments. I especially disliked moments where characters would do dumb things because if they did the smart thing the plot would be boring. Like when Nanashi and Asahi went unleash Krishna because some sketchy old dude told them to, even Navarre had some sense to be sketched out and he's an idiot. Or when Isabeau did not notice how strange Flynn was acting after he defeated Odin and how he did not want to touch Masakado's sword. Though I liked all the lore from SMT IV that expanded upon even if they did it a less than subtle way.

[@peronafanman]

Thx for pointing out my biggest issue with this Apocalypse, I swear the dialogue in this game is either the most preachy shit ever or the most hand holdy shit ever, there's no subtlety. Like fans of this game get mad at the Persona comparisons but the way characters talk in this game really is emblamatic of Persona. It's such a shame too because SMT 4 managed to develop it's characters nicely without all this power of friendship shit so I don't understand why Apocalypse felt the need to change up the SMT story formula so drastically and in a way that made it feel so out of place tonally from literally any other mainline title.

[@kichiroumitsurugi4363]

Because SMT IV has issues of being a shameless SMT 1 rehash, and Nocturne sure also left a sour taste. Then they overcorrected with V, where the characters are damn near nonexistent

[@peronafanman]

@kichiroumitsurugi4363 I mean yeah but at least SMT IV managed to reference previous SMT games without it feeling overbearing imo.

[@digimonlover1632]

I mean, it’s a dumb comparison considering Persona is better written. There’s way more of a reason people love Persona than just “anime”, they’re relatable characters that feel real. Also fans of Smt just seem to naturally hate on Persona and view it at lesser because it’s not an edgy power fantasy.

[@peronafanman]

@@digimonlover1632 I think you only ever interact with Nocturne fans

[@ilyamuromez6412]

Its kinda funny how this was my first proper smt after persona 4

[@gary.420]

Great video and all, i was on the fence on this game, having heard it was like a silly fanfic of SMT4, im convinced to try it now, btw using "ya wey" from "that video" in particular to spell YHVH is some 999 IQ move, had me busting out laughing for a solid minute.

[@johnfields4796]

Since you mentioned SMT5's (outline of a) story, and there's no video of it, what are your about your thoughts on Vengeance? Also, your Dagda voice made my day.

[@hiimstel]

i really didn't enjoy SMT V at all, and because of that i don't have any plans to play vengeance at the moment. but i will admit, seeing how popular it's been online makes it somewhat tempting. from what i've seen they fixed a lot of huge issues, like the performance and story, but i'm still on the fence. maybe i'll grab it when it's on sale

[@damiannova5207]

Oh my god. Your content is so fucking hilarious, I’ve been on an SMT video essay binge for months now how have I not seen this before?? I was already fucking dead at “Can you at least tell me if Hell’s real and if John Lennon was there??!” But for some reason “BITCH That’s a dollar bill” at 10:53 just. Absolutely SENT me. Immaculate.

[@megamike15]

after the failure of both this and soul hackers 2 i hope attlus never attempts this again.

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

16:38 this is literally how Digital Devil Saga 2 ends lol

[@X-ray39]

DDS2 made it better

[@halowaffle25]

15:36 LMAO Hey, at least if it were Homestuck it would have been foreshadowed half a million times first. 😏

[@Dude_McHuge]

another banger by stel

[@digimonlover1632]

Eh, it’s absolutely a hidden gem. People are way too hard on this game. I was wondering why this game was positively received among critics if this is apparently so mediocre. Just another reason to not listen to fans. I doubt it’s something obscure though. I still see peeps talking about and comparing it to entirely nonexistent characters in Smt V. Still not positive sadly but, it’s something ;)

[@setiawan2791]

That's why this game divided the fanbase. You said it's hidden gem and just another reason to not listen to fans. There is like half of you said the same, and yet the other including me will still agree with the dudes on the Video

[@daltonharmon1018]

I mean apocalypse mode and the dlc is a good reason to new game plus which has the most badass boss in the series, stephen himself.

[@Superstumpgrinder64]

Honestly, i kinda liked that SMT4 is a game that literally makes you look at a real life map to navigate in game. Made me feel like. Fucking genius when i thought to do that lmao.

[@nodbynobdy]

i appreciate the random jab at homestuck

[@fouburr1462]

I’ve never imagine edgar’s fall in a smt video

[@GofuhKyorself]

Currently playing through the game rn and I see every point you've made, but that Stephen boss fight in the DLC is the true end goal 😂😂😂😂

[@setiawan2791]

The massacre ending really fucked up man. I like the outcome and understand the point Dagda trying to make, but i don't want to kill all my friends just because i can wtf.

[@OneCentWonder]

I played apocalypse before SMT4 cuz i thought it was an enhanced version of the original. I didn't really pay attention to the story but for what I played I enjoyed it

[@Neonlight3934]

SMT IVA is an SMT game that was made by people that had no idea what SMT is and looked at it through the eyes of a generic JPRG

[@FlaccidPancake]

You made some good points but i will not tolerate NieR slander. I subbed btw.

[@scar3crow_art]

Honestly, I’d argue the massacre ending is the most morally sound decision. You dethrone the one who set the world into a perpetual war machine just to secure their own position in the food chain. Restarting the world from square one. No demons, no factions, nothing tying the new world to the broken old world. Essentially, the “white ending” but an actual path forward rather than complete oblivion. Friendship ending, yes you defeat WeeWoo, but you return to a broken world that has only known the never ending conflict. Can anyone really expect everyone in Mikado and Tokyo to suddenly disarm and start living in peace? There is also WeeWoo’s followers. Seeing as how humans essentially “will” these divine beings into existence, it’s a forgone conclusion that he will be back sooner rather than later, and thus the never ending cycle begins again. End of the day, does the improved gameplay justify the bonkers writing that’s such a tonal 180 from IV it’s an insult to call Apocalypse? Can’t speak for everyone, but for me, Apocalypse is a pass. I will say the soundtrack has some absolute, best in the series, bangers.

[@wikanari]

Great video, keep going and you'll make it.

[@wikanari]

Nevermind, you don't like nier, I take it all back

[@NachtKaiser666]

There are good ideas in this game, the whole Polytheist Alliance throwing a wrench in the classic Law/Chaos stalemate was a great idea, but it would've been better if you could just side with Krishna. The party system was a good idea on paper, but the game was balanced in a way that made siding with Dagda stupid from both the story and gameplay perspective. The fakeout Law/Chaos endings are just recycled from 4 and don't bring anything interesting to the story, unlike the Whites ending in 4. The Nozomi character assassination was a crime though. She was one of the most interesting recurring NPC in 4 with a decent character arc to big sis "you kids make me so hopeful for the future" in Apocalypse. There are issues with the other characters too, but she really just feels useless to the plot and just there for the big sis archetype lovers. Danu at least contributes to the plot, Nozomi is just Danu's ball and chain with a gun. Truly, I think if the game fleshed out the Law and Chaos endings and replaced the Anarchy/Bonds ending with an Alliance/Deicide routes, the game could've been better.

[@christianmckee2116]

To sum it up: SMT IV: A is great as a game, but reaaaaally stupid as a sequel. Y'know, like Pokemon B2W2 or Sly Cooper 4! Anyways, great job making this video, Stel! It was entertaining as usual! 👍🏾

[@hotarumori3919]

I love SMT IV for the story and Apocalypse for its game play. Not that i hated the story or anything, it just wasn't as strong as SMT IV.

[@raiHo15]

What was that song at the end? The kinda sad background music?

[@hiimstel]

etrian odyssey v's daytime town theme

[@wowwar2]

Loved this game,it has become my favourite game in the series I have never understood the discourse that this game was bad for being too 'anime' which isn't inherently a bad thing

[@benmcgiggles7655]

I've always been a gameplay first sort of person, so I've always really liked this game, but the plot goes PLACES lol. I still think this game has the best JRPG final boss of all time though, I'll die on that hill

[@deatho0ne587]

I thought SMT IV Apocalypse was just DLC to the original game back then. Sort of wish I would have gotten it though. Glad you dislike that garbage at 19:31, I am still lost on how it made GoY since there was nothing new in it and it's story was really not all that great.

[@Stoltzy92]

SMT4A. A game that probably has one of the best gameplay experiences in the series, but also has probably 1 of the worst story wise in the series. I don't necessarily hate the stories or the characters, it's just very very tropey and feels even more like persona than actual persona. One thing I will always mark down is something I hate and a wasted opportunity, is the record scratch sound effect. They could have used that to illustrate this being's name as someone who can only really be named by either Demons or ascended beings, but then they ruin that opportunity by having humans start to throw the name around like it doesn't matter. It's a small detail but it's a wasted opportunity that annoys me to this day. Not to mention that if this game had its story in any other franchise it would probably be considered okay or mediocre at worst, but because this is the type of story they went with for an SMT game it sticks out like a sore thumb. For anyone who wants to see a good balance between the character's centric writing of persona and the overarching theme centered writing of mainline, look into the devil survivor games.

[@DeniosTheGamer]

while I get it, I still had way more fun with 4A than with 4. QoL changes made it so much more comfortable to play and while yes, the story is stupid, I don't think the story of 4 is so much better. the endings were all pretty disappointing for me as well.

[@Ratcheto9108]

Whats the outro song ?

[@hiimstel]

leave it alone - a_hisa

[@Ratcheto9108]

@@hiimstel GOAT

[@YourLocalTypicalFisherMan]

The game is stupid, that's why i love it, if you want to hate it go ahead, but Dagda is the goat

[@Flailmorpho]

I'm glad you agree with me that krishna is supremely breedable

[@dond2377]

This game just screams to me that the devs just added Persona 4 to SMT and thought that SMT fans would like that. The characters and story are just awful and that friendship stuff all throughout screams Persona 4.

[@zero64734]

shout out to carti

[@hiimstel]

slatt

[@lumiknightwithawrench2946]

Ok but Nozomi a baddie tho

[@hiimstel]

you arent wrong

[@Eternyoualreadyknowww]

Aye bro sbr is the best part of jojo right

[@Demi-kid]

It has one of the best combat but damn this plot isn't smt.

[@stevenbrady1624]

Why do I get the feeling that the Vengeance route in SMT V: Vengeance is going to be like Apocalypse with the endings? I’m worried.

[@muffdrvr]

the Hawaii dlc alone makes this one of the best games ever ...

[@dc7981]

This game is worth playing only on apocalypse difficulty if you just wanna play a challenging Megaten game where you need to apply everything youve learned throughout the franchise to win, in that sense yeah its absolutely worth playing. But considering that the E Shop is dead well I dont even know anymore Also Walter and Johnathan are mid asf characters the side characters hard carry SMT4s narrative and the endings are all pretty piss. Like at least in Strange Journey the endings being bad was kinda the point

[@gscollect]

Smt v is better than this mid ass game. Gtfoh. Affinities in this game suck they are done better in v and make more sense. You didn’t mention how every enemy in this game has like 3x health compared to their smt iv counterparts. 80% of the bosses are reused from other games. Didn’t speak about the ailment system in this game being actually useful up until the endgame. Very few new locations, also the buffers and healers in this game aren’t the only useful characters. Toki for instance, is great when dealing with ads because she has an instakill ability. This game is basically just a copy/paste job of the original. Decent video though, a lot better than that dumpster fire of a review that nam put out.

[@kichiroumitsurugi4363]

Affinities in IVA were fine, what are you on about? Also, bosses had more health because of the fact that the damage system actually worked properly (instead of Zio doing like 500 damage in SMT IV) and also the fact that Atlus realized boosters existed

[@duyanhbui5386]

Still better than smt 4 yes 4 suck compare to this

[@williamrosenberg8061]

boooooh