The Beerus Problem - Dragon Ball Super's Worst Retcon

I do not own any of the images or songs in this video.
So sorry for the late upload, I planned to get this up yesterday but things got in the way! Thank you all so much for watching! Have a great day!
SOURCES
Primary Sources
Dragon Ball Chapters: 53
Dragon Ball Z Chapters: 221, 256, 299, 307, 308, 312
Dragon Ball Super: 39, 59, 60, 66, 93, 95, 109, 130
Dragon Ball Super Manga Chapters: 23, 27, 28, 29, 39, 66, 69, 70, 93, 94, 102
Dragon Ball GT: 59
Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods
Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection of F
Dragon Ball Super: Broly
Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero
Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods Anime Comics Toriyama Interview Translation: www.kanzenshuu...
Secondary Sources:
Beerus Wiki: dragonball.fan...
DBS Broly Wiki: dragonball.fan...
My DBS Broly video helps add some context if you haven’t checked that out: • Explaining Why Dragon ...
Every music track is from the hit game Dragon Ball Z: Dokkan Battle
PHY Super Saiyan God Goku Active Skill OST
TEQ Jiren Full Power Active Skill OST
PHY Beerus (Pajamas (Eepy)) Active Skill OST
PHY Dokkan Festival Beerus Active Skill OST
AGL Super Saiyan Full Power Broly Active Skill OST

[@toughmangaming8275]

Hey guys, so first off, thank you all so much for checking out the video. The reception and discussions have been great! This comment is going to cover some commonly addressed points that we’re brought up. I know Super has a total of three different continuities (movies, anime, manga). The reason why I meshed the three of them in this video was to highlight how his portrayal in the manga has led to confusion about his portrayal in the other two. This reception to this video has convinced me to at some point cover the three different continuities, why they exist, and how to go about Super given that it has different stories. Probably the most common response is folks bringing up that the climax of the anime ToP moment involved the GoDs standing out of respect for Goku because of his completion of Ultra Instinct and NOT the fact that Goku is stronger than them. While I completely understand this take, the reason why I go in for Goku > the GoD’s is because of everything else that hints at it leading up to this moment (the tanking of Hakai and the Jiren statements) as well as what I said in the video where I feel like this moment gets greatly diminished if Goku was still weaker than the GoD’s. In the anime, a couple of people were saying that Freeza and Goku tanking the hakai doesn’t mean they’re stronger than Sidra. I disagree with this as I do believe Sidra would’ve used an amount of hakai energy that he thought could’ve killed the Goku he saw in the Zeno Exhibition match who used SSBKK. If Sidra didn’t do this, then why would he even bother with trying to kill Goku? Next up is another really common comment about people saying that “Beerus is just training off screen.” While I do believe if this were ever addressed in the manga canon, this would be the explanation for it, my issue is that it’s never shown to the viewer. This is a problem for me because in between arcs, it’s a pretty safe bet that Goku and Vegeta are on Beerus’s planet training and we literally never see Beerus train with them or refer to the fact that he is training. While I appreciate people filling in the gaps, and it’s really cool to see people try to explain this stuff with creative alternatives, the fact that something so big is left to the interpretation of the view this much is my problem (obviously, that’s not to say nothing can ever be left up to interpretation, just that this in particular probably shouldn’t be. As for the difference between the Vegeta fights, I do understand that characters can hold back in Dragon ball. I was trying to highlight that “Serious” Beerus (as Whis said he had to get serious) was literally less than a fraction of a percent of his power which means that Beerus was holding back to a comical degree which I don’t think was the initial goal of that scene. There seems to be some confusion about the GoD free for all in the manga. Some people we’re trying to downplay Belmod or Quetelia. For the former, some folks we’re saying that Belmod hid the entire fight and pretended to go down because he’s actually really weak. For the latter, some folks were saying that he also hid and let everyone else do the work before trying to fight Beerus. Neither of these are definitively shown nor stated within the fight. This is because it starts as everyone ganging up on Beerus and once Belmod starts attacking the others, it becomes a free for all and when the dust settles. We see Beerus and Quetelia are the last two standing. There is no indication as to why Belmod throws the fight and no indication as to how Quetelia was the last one standing. Some other quick ones are people talking about energy usage - saying the Beerus is the same strength as the Goku and Co.but he uses his energy better. While I don’t mind this theory since it aligns with what Vegeta says, I will say that I hate that addition to the Dragon Ball mythos as a whole as it seems to contradict quite a bit in Dragon Ball. Also some folks mentioned that potara and metemoran fusion are not equals, but there is a guide that came out with the Broly movie calling the two fusions of Goku and Vegeta equally matched trump cards. We also know from GT and Z that if metamoran fusion uses too much power, the fusion ends meaning it has the same weaknesses as the potara. Finally a lot of people are saying that if Goku was stronger than Beerus then there would be no more stakes and the narrative would suck because a lot of people would be stronger than Beerus. My response to that is simply: “Okay…” This is because Dragon Ball has a habit of doing this. There’s always some mythical being/beast (Piccolo, Piccolo, Freeza, Cell, Buu, Zamasu, Jiren) that is the pinnacle of power that gets surpassed because the characters get stronger. From there, there’s a new character that resets the standard. I don’t really understand why a lot of folks really don’t want this to happen to Beerus. Conversely, if Goku beats Beerus, just let Super end already. Even that would be better than the resulting inconsistencies we’re left to do with. And that’s most of the big stuff. Thank you all so much for watching and reading if you made it this far. Have a great day!

[@Just-a-good-gamer]

So... You're telling me that King Kai and Master Korin weren't just as much of a mentor to Goku? Heck, Goku even wore the King Kai emblem on his outfit as homage.

[@i.f.a2132]

Goku THOUGHT that Broly might be in the Beerus ballpark, and he could be wrong, and he could be right, but there is no reason for Broly to not eclipse the non-god characters (Granolah and Gash) in the manga! Nor is there a reason why Vegito can not be superior to Beerus! Gogeta being astronomically stronger than Beerus contradicts nothing! It is plausible! Vegito from Black Arc Clearing Granolah and Gash does also not contradict anything! Belmond faking his L does not prove he can somehow hang with Beerus, combat-wise! There is no reason to believe this to be a factual thing! Beerus may very well be thousands of times the combatant Belmond is, who knows? Beerus stressing that Goku reached MUI before him, does not mean Beerus is proactively training to reach MUI! Not to mention, Beerus may have simply changed his mind! Maybe he does not care for MUI now, and he did care for MUI back during the tournament! Not to mention, nothing implies Beerus has not tried to hone his Mastered EGO-mode off-screen, during the tournament arcs! DBS suffers from bad writing, not contradictive writing (yet)! Beerus being shocked by Gokus strength is irrelevant! I can be shocked by children's strength! Nothing contradicts Vegito being superior to Beerus! Broly being more powerful than Beerus is also not contradicted by anything! Jiren being superior to Belmond does not prove or disprove that Jiren is superior or inferior to Beerus! We actually DO NOT KNOW how Belmond scales to Beerus! I know it is a frustrating reality for you for me to say this, but we actually do not know if Belmond is stronger or weaker than Beerus, hence we do not know whether Jiren is superior or inferior to Beerus, not to mention Goku had not mastered his Ultra instinct yet! He couldn't use it willingly! So we do not know where Goku tournament of power Goku scales as well! Goku admits to not being able to use MUI, at the end of DBS-anime! Beerus says he can "lend a hand", not that he can win 1v1, against Moro! Vegeta being able to tag a holding back Beerus is irrelevant! Beerus has held back enough to be taged and damaged by Red-Goku during his first appearance anyway! Ki-control is a thing, and Vegeta showed it, by decreasing his ki during the Namek-arc, for Krillin to 1 shot him! Your title is misleading! Had you written DBS has bad-writing, I wouldn't have clicked the video, cause that's an obvious fact! But you write "retcon", and that is just factually incorrect, as of now!

[@Shane0622]

@@i.f.a2132 somone is maaaaaaad lol. It's not that serious bro. Besides retconning = bad writing in the majority of cases and Toriyama has been notorious of retcons through the entire existence of the franchise. It's no big deal.

[@fbafoundationalbuck-broken6011]

The inconsistencies in Ultra Instinct deserve a video, heck toppo god of destruction form got retconned just to hype up vegeta and jiren got downgraded for the same reason. Toyotaro fanfiction writing style has him ripping off-scenes with goku and remaking them with vegeta.. ultra ego is literally just goku ssj3 even copying goku's scenes vs kid buu. He did the same thing in the moro arc when goku appeared in front vegeta when he was on the ground vs frieza, dude copied that and gave vegeta instant transmission just to remake the scene but with vegeta appearing in front of goku. lol

[@toughmangaming8275]

@@i.f.a2132 thanks for watching!

[@BuddyBoy-ne1nw]

My headcanon is that Beerus is bad at math. "Oh, did I say that was 70% of my power? I actually meant 7%...or was it 0.0007%?!

[@toughmangaming8275]

Real...

[@gingeas]

"I was using ancient kai numerals"

[@vura8848]

Bro in the same saga where he says 70% statement whis looked at him and was like is he actually? And beerus proceeds to say no he was more like 40%, the jump from God to blue is not that huge that it would make him instantly go from being below half his power to being equal and that's while not taking into account beerus can utilize ultra instinct something he hadn't shown at that time or rather wasn't a thing, when you add that you can easily say beerus scales way higher than he was in that movie. I feel you all are being intentionally hard header

[@toughmangaming8275]

@@vura8848 I understand this take. The point of talking about the percentages is that they make no sense. If we say Beerus was at 40% of his power than we'd have to say that the SSB multiplier from God is less than 3 times. The percentages also only exist within the movie canon which is why I write them off and say that I don't take them that seriously.

[@Zakari-0]

Yo Beerus how strong are you? Beerus: however strong the plot demands. That’s not really good writing…

[@HoradeFidges]

To be fair, I could beat my younger brother in a fight, but that doesn't stopped me from being impressed when he managed to pull a backflip that I can't

[@tamish3551]

That’s a really good way of thinking about it. When my baby brother was smaller he and he punched my arm it felt like someone tapping me. And more recently when he did it pushed my whole body back. Still not on the level of an adult for sure but it did catch me off guard.

[@gokusamm]

Every single source pointed at Goku surpassing Beerus. The databooks, artbooks, even Beerus himself stated he was weaker.

[@ZayDeyknow]

Horrible analog

[@NaoyaYami]

@@ZayDeyknow It's not horrible. It's simply another example of why it's okay to praise and show respect even to those still weaker than you. Just because they aren't on your level (yet) doesn't mean their achievements are worthless.

[@ZayDeyknow]

@@NaoyaYami that isn't at all why I said it was a horrible analog

[@nono9543]

“Tbh I haven’t given it any thought at all” should be the Toriyama tagline

[@ZarProMc]

true

[@SinHurr]

Well he's dead now, so... accurate.

[@itsdiamond5128]

@@SinHurr yea LOL i know it aint funny but i think toriyama thought his fans will meme him but they consider him a legend which is ACCURATE

[@qdakid7776]

@@itsdiamond5128dragon ball been insanely popular worldwide since the 90s he definitely knew he was a legend

[@itsdiamond5128]

@@qdakid7776 yea he is the reason animes are popular

[@darkside7802]

The worst retcon ever was Frieza being afraid of the Super Saiyan legend so he nuked the planet, being changed to Beerus just being lazy and wanting Frieza to blow it up over some pillow I guess.

[@vibemasterkorosu2469]

THIS

[@highlevelproductions9742]

​@dn22pkkdd476 I honestly believe it's shitty writing either way cause you can tell he doesn't know what to do in terms of execution, Remember Dbz was good cause it taught life advices it had meaning so what happened?

[@oldmanjesus9855]

​@@highlevelproductions9742DBZ was never about life advice lol what kind of nonsense is that. Dragon ball has always been about martial arts philosophies and asian mythology with a little bit of comedy thrown in it. Americans messed up the translations and turned dragon ball into this justice league wannabe show to fit their idiotic dub

[@highlevelproductions9742]

@oldmanjesus9855 actually yes it was, it's subliminal you just can't see metaphors

[@highlevelproductions9742]

@oldmanjesus9855 Philosophy is literally your opinion on how life and the world works... Those are life advices... Open a dictionary sometime

[@grantgarbour]

The fans always have given MUCH MUCH more thought about the power system and scaling than Toriyama and that's an issue to me

[@grantgarbour]

@robertothesupermutant830 ...no what? My point is Toriyama should put forth more effort into his world than he has lol. But I mean DB is successful regardless so I guess that's unnecessary

[@powpowouchy5]

@robertothesupermutant830what exactly is *your* point? To just accept mediocre writing just because the author is going senile?

[@grantgarbour]

@@powpowouchy5 exactly lol

[@dantesapprentice4581]

That is exactly the difference between fans and creators. Power scaling honestly just isn't that important of a concept. Like, at all. The engagement and excitement of a fighting story comes from the fight being interesting, either from a technical standpoint, or from the stakes involved. Dragon Ball is not really a super technical series when it comes to martial arts. It's a fantasy, not a grounded story. It's still got some really cool mechanics going on, but these are NOT (at least IMO) what makes it engaging. That comes from the latter aspect I mentioned, i.e. the stakes. We care about Goku because we've come to see him grow, and followed him over time. By the same token, we care about the rest of the main cast. So when a new, more powerful foe shows up and threatens them, we want to see them overcome the odds and win. So long as it's clear that the current opponent is a challenge, it doesn't REALLY matter if said opponent is stronger or weaker than some other character. It especially doesn't matter what the numbers say.

[@KYLE1654-v7m]

When you really think about it He is amazing at character design and world building but he sucks at writing good stories. He sucks at creating new transformations too seriously Goku Blue am sure the Recolored Fans that made Super Saiyan Blue before he did were excited and happy their awful creation is Canonized. 🤣

[@wakkaseta8351]

Finally someone acknowledges this. Beerus has basically become the Dragon Ball equivalent of "Ash can't win a Pokemon league because then the show would end".

[@luisyupari]

and even then Ash won a league and not long after he became the #1 trainer in the world.

[@aidanh7527]

Wym people bitch about this all the time it’s really not that serious

[@masterjoda999]

@@luisyupari And then his part in the show ended.

[@luisyupari]

@@masterjoda999 but it was glorious…

[@ZeroOmega-vg8nq]

They honestly couldave just had Ash win an actual league that mattered years ago then make it so he hs a rivalry with all the other canon game protags like have him face red or gold.

[@ytwhattup6128]

5:27 I don't think the GOD's respect was out of his raw strength alone, but the fact that he was able to obtain Ultra Instinct, which even the GODs are unable to properly utilize yet.

[@4everitt]

Exactly correct. Every time whis states "oh are you worried blah blah blah is getting close to your strength. " it's not serious. Its purely whis way of teasing. I never had a issue seeing beerus as the FINAL goal.

[@joseclima9519]

exactly what I thought

[@hightetrisbeatboxrevived1648]

I don't really understand why he just didn't take that into account but this is a likely possibility, and to use this as evidence alone that Goku has surpassed Beerus in strength is a pretty shaky argument.

[@nielsarkalukheilmann2931]

Bro expressed my thoughts before I could think them

[@moedawg8181]

I agree and was gonna mention that

[@Nodnarb59]

Beerus is LTG, he's not even using .002% of his power and if you call him a liar, GTAB from existence!

[@commonbridge4735]

You said I was moving the goalposts in my universe? GTAB

[@christhechilled]

Bruh 😂

[@bacongod5759]

YSKYSN!

[@bryanmarinez]

Whis please, ban everybody

[@Ve-id8zd]

So Beerus is a groomer too?

[@Jman20077]

I personally believe that Beerus and Whis just lie to the saiyans in order to hype them up enough to believe that they can reach higher levels of power. The reason Beerus is so baffled by how quick the saiyans are increasing in power, is because it took Beerus far longer to reach these levels of power, since he is over 75 million years old.

[@thelvadam8811]

Isn't he 200,000,000?

[@Jman20077]

@@thelvadam8811, I thought he was but I didn’t want to overshoot his age if I was wrong

[@devinmes1868]

The Mental gymnastics is crazy

[@rory8182]

@@devinmes1868 what, Beerus doing something to get his playthings to fight harder is strange? I don't think that is too unreasonable

[@McNugget_Buddy]

@@rory8182 Not only is it entirely in character for Beerus to do that, he DID do it in the Universe 6 tournament arch. He lied and told Goku that Monaka was the strongest in their universe to give Goku motivation to get stronger.

[@thebarbelllifestyle1478]

Beerus is a literal moving goalpost.

[@rory8182]

TBF he has only really moved once (after BoG), and that was due to the movie being designed to only have RezF after it and nothing else

[@brkmnly]

still have my hopes up for for Mastered Complete Super Saiyan God Super Ultra Instinct 3 grade 5 + Kaio-Ken x200,000

[@KxngKam14]

That signature Big bang final special beam kamehameha cannon x10

[@Discontinued5428]

​@@KxngKam14tf is u on

[@AscendedEmperor]

This is light work Beerus only needs 5% of his power to beat Gokus brand new Mastered complete Super Saiyan God Super Ultra Instinct 3 grade 5 + Kaio- Ken x200,000!

[@gingeas]

Need zenkai boost

[@Discontinued5428]

@@gingeas boost the zenkai out of me 😩

[@sadeknight9112]

4:02 we can’t assume Freeza, Goku, and Vegeta are stronger than a God of Destruction because they resisted destruction energy. To say all energy of destruction were equivalent would be like saying all ki blasts are equivalent. Toppo is still in training and would naturally be weaker than a fully fledged GoD and Sindra didn’t look like he was trying too hard when he made that energy ball. If I remember right he says that the ball “would be enough” meaning he can output more but underestimated the targets. What’s more important is that Beerus was able to casually blow away the energy with air from his lungs.

[@backasswardstornado6961]

Thank you for saying this, I feel like we as Dragonball fans tend to forget that characters can and will dose their strength, I mean we watched Frieza say he was only at 2% for approximately fifteen billion years back on namek

[@biohazardbin]

@@backasswardstornado6961 No. As Dragon Ball fans we should realize when the core of Dragon Ball, being the powerscaling, is completely and wildly inconsistent it needs to be called out. The reason why multipliers and statements are called out so often is to show the difference in power and the growth of characters. If it can all just be patched up by saying "errr uhm uhh they can actually just conceal their power 🤓" makes for a poor argument. Also, where is this Frieza statement? I'd like to look it up.

[@josephmother2659]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@biohazardbinlet’s not pretend that powerscaling is the “core” of the series lol. The core of dragon ball is an interesting story where goku fights everybody and anybody. Has it gotten less interesting over the years? Yes. Does power scaling make for good content and discussion/debate? Yes. Have I and most people largely stopped paying attention to the series because of inconsistency and ridiculous power-ups? Probably, but I’m not trying to crucify Toriyama/Toyotaro for making random changes/retcons/whatever because it’s their series to do what they want with. Numbered power levels haven’t been a thing since the Namek arc 30 years ago, but people still want to assign exact numbers and multipliers when they do not have any impact on the story. The story is going to continue and Goku will fight whoever Toriyama wants him to, whether they’re logically scaled to each other or the series as a whole or not.

[@luisyupari]

@@biohazardbinAt this point the story is more important than powerscaling, that has stopped being relevant to the writers a long, long time ago. The fans are the ones that try to justify the story beats with feats and scaling when in reality it's like Stan Lee said, the author decides who wins, power notwithstanding.

[@sporeceress1465]

@@luisyupari Yep yep. Power scaling is still a thing in Super, but it's a lot more fluid. It's established that a LOT of fighters are actually quite a bit closer to Goku and Vegeta than in Z and it's not as simple as "Whoever has the highest level of Super Saiyan wins." 17 and 18 get a huge glow-up and Buu remains one of the strongest fighters in the galaxy. There's still too much, but it's a big improvement. As a lot of people note, the feats haven't really changed since Dragon Ball. Roshi blew up the moon in the very first tournament arc. People have been effortlessly blowing up planets since the Saiyan Saga filler where Vegeta nukes the bug planet. The feats are the same. That part isn't important. The narrative is. Jiren ultimately loses not to a maximally powered-up Ultra Instinct Goku, but Goku, Frieza and 17 outmanuevering and overpowering him with teamwork. Hell, the final blow is delivered by Goku and Frieza in their base forms because they're so completely drained that they can't transform anymore. It's a big improvement over the DBZ formula to me.

[@vialsaya6590]

The GoD standing sequence seemed more like a "Oh shit, a mortal is doing this, props"

[@InfernosReaper]

And that is what it *should* have been, but it was sold instead as "oh wow, even we can't do that" which needlessly created easily avoidable narrative problems down the line.

[@SAVEDSOULS777]

The fact that he learned that before most of them is also indicative of his power in that form! Sick of the nerfing.

[@JohnDoe-pc3uk]

@@InfernosReaper As a rando who barely watches DBZ but has a general idea of it from memes and clips, when I watched that specific clip, that's how I interpreted it. Giving respect to the first and only mortal to reach their realm.

[@InfernosReaper]

@@JohnDoe-pc3uk But he's not, though. Others have touched into the realm of the gods and can even become successors.

[@Purple-Popcorntm]

@@InfernosReaper Well, think of it this way. Even if there was a Trillion mortals per universe, which is a MASSIVE lowball considering how large a single universe is, that would make a 12 Trillion mortals all together. like.. 4 single mortals out of 12 trillion (Goku, Vegeta, Toppo, Jirin) were able to use a technique of the gods. Would that not be special?

[@BoldFollower]

This power level issue started with Frieza and has only gotten worse over time

[@four-en-tee]

This is what happens when you don't plan out your story. Also, the reason Beerus is standing in respect is because he and the other gods of destruction (to my knowledge) haven't mastered Ultra Instinct. That's a technique used by the angels, so the fact that a NINGEN was able to master this technique in such a short time is truly mind blowing to someone like Beerus.

[@SinHurr]

This is correct. Beerus displays a limited capacity for UI in the manga in the "Oops All Gods of Destruction" Exhibition match prelude to the Tournament of Power, but it's nothing on the level of _proficiency_ Goku displays during the ToP or later in the Moro Arc.

[@Unfamiliar-Psychedelic]

All we know is that Freiza will kill Beerus for the newest arc, Knowing that Broly and or Gohan will have to surpass Freiza for the final battle of the series... So we can assume his strength from there

[@Battimeme]

It was rushed to fix the mistake of dragon ball evolution

[@pendu7525]

​@@Unfamiliar-Psychedelicfrieza killing beerus😂😂😂

[@Unfamiliar-Psychedelic]

@@pendu7525 it’ll happen… why do you think otherwise?

[@LRBowas]

You make some good arguments and criticisms. The fact that you would have to headcannon stuff like "Beerus is training in secret" and "Beerus was lying to Vegeta about his thoughts on UI to more easily convince him towards UE" in order to justify the writing is just messy patchwork. I'd actually be fine if those 2 things actually happened but at this point its just blind hope.

[@superheriber27]

More like blind cope

[@zombathinlostleghackercat5233]

If Beerus WAS training for millions of years and WAS secretly still training, then that would mean his 10 years of training were WAAAAAY more effective than his million years.

[@dischordblast8992]

@@zombathinlostleghackercat5233 To be fair he wouldn’t have had a real reason to train since he’s arguably the strongest god of destruction and nobody in the universe was gonna challenge him.

[@twilightsparkle75]

Yeah my brain basically just jumps to offscreen training after he realized he was being outpaced by mortals in his own universe.

[@prolastmedia6171]

In the manga, Beerus blatantly states that hes been training. Its not headcanon. That part isnt at least

[@gingeas]

My headcanon: 70% is probably Beerus' base form. We have yet to see his Mega Evolution

[@deyontemyers4109]

Does he grow fur...or turn into a tiger?

[@stickinittotheman1]

​@@deyontemyers4109I'm assuming he'll pull out his exclusive wrestling techniques, such as the "Destructive Power-bomb!"

[@ZaNinjaYT]

Beerus VMAX

[@Joker-u7w]

That's your average DB lazy overused writing at this point, and I wouldn't surprise if they're using it

[@Unfamiliar-Psychedelic]

All we know is that Freiza will kill Beerus for the newest arc, Knowing that Broly and or Gohan will have to surpass Freiza for the final battle of the series... So we can assume his strength from there

[@the5goldens106]

If there is a cannon explanation, it's that Beerus' Ultra Ego lets him get stronger after every fight/sparring session he has

[@GodslayerSeiya]

Toyotaro already stated that Ultra Ego is the technique used by Gods of Destruction. Idk why fans can't seem to understand this

[@omarpro1495]

he just hold back

[@boigaming5861]

​@@GodslayerSeiya That's what happens when fans don't do research On dragon ball

[@Unfamiliar-Psychedelic]

All we know is that Freiza will kill Beerus for the newest arc, Knowing that Broly and or Gohan will have to surpass Freiza for the final battle of the series... So we can assume his strength from there

[@RyeBread343YT]

@@omarpro1495people also forget he’s been sleeping for god knows how long

[@Nightmare-we8vm]

I don't know why they keep using numbers to quantify people's powers. If Beerus didn't give a percentage for the power he used against Goku, we could just assume he's always suppressing his true power.

[@TactfulWaggle]

Or you know, the fact that he's manipulative on multiple occasions throughout the show, iirc the 70% was probably just a lie to motivate goku to push harder at the moment, which actually succeeds, characters have been wrong before aswell it's funny to me how much dragon ball z fans take so many quotes and dialogues at face value

[@calculator91]

Toriyama used character quotes to explain almost all the lore in Dragon Ball. When an author makes statements of facts about their world through a character, you almost always take that as the author directly telling you something. The only exception to this is if the author has portrayed a history of dishonesty or incompetence for the character making the statement.

[@TactfulWaggle]

@@calculator91 which is exactly the history of beerus, he's been shown to be manipulative and says things that aren't true, the 70% power lie, the monaka lie, don't forget the many times characters were proven wrong, vegeta's many many overestimations of himself, trunks being wrong about the androids

[@cosmosofinfinity]

Because it has not yet been revealed as a lie at the time he stated it. We have to take him at his word, unless it is proven that he didn't know what he was talking about or purposefully misrepresented the truth

[@calculator91]

@TactfulWaggle Monaka was a gag. If that's literally your only example besides the issue in question then you're just wrong.

[@williambrown4138]

Ugh, it changes so much I don't really care if they surpass Beerus anymore. I'm sure EOS when they recap the 28th World Tournament, Beerus and Whis watch from afar and be like, "Wow, if they keep this up they might surpass me."

[@rriverderch7035]

No. EOZ squad is far stronger than Beerus, ever since BoG. Whis is the target next, as it’s clear that Goku is using a heightened state of power while fighting Uub. That’s very likely where Toriyama got the idea for Ultra Instinct, but only did it so late because the anime team asked for a climax for the Black arc ( Vegito fanservice) and Ui and UE, which are absorbed in their base forms by the end of Z.

[@williambrown4138]

@@rriverderch7035We're not reading/watching the same series mate if you think they're stronger than Beerus. Whis has never been the target, ever.

[@rriverderch7035]

@@williambrown4138 They’ve been stronger than Beerus, long time ago. Plot just makes him look like a moving goalpost. By the way, we are reading the same thing, ur just not reading 😌😌

[@broom673]

@@rriverderch7035 They are not stronger than Beerus. You're using headcanon as copium for the dog shit writing.

[@Mark-zo2kp]

The reason why Beerus and all the gods stood up for Goku was because he mastered a technique even the gods couldn’t. Dosent that indicate strength? I don’t think so.

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

It definitely is about strength. People keep saying UI isnt a strength increase when it CLEARLY IS. Goku had little effect in Jiren until he went UI then absolutely put the paws on him

[@vegitosaysalright2365]

Using a technique someone else couldn’t master doesn’t make you stronger than them

[@isaacshadow100]

@@jdrmanmusiqkingits not about strength, its about utilization of power. I dont have the video on me, but there are guys, average build with some athletic background, who put up the same numbers as body builders, individuals who are objectively stronger than the average person. The bridge gapper for them is the form and lift technique. The body builders had more strength, but poor power utilization

[@MegaDragonmark]

@@jdrmanmusiqking thought it was more of a efficiency increase.

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

@@isaacshadow100You kinda described Kaoiken... But ironically UI functions like literally every other transformation so yes its a power level increase just like all the others . The writers are absolutely trash since they don't show UI as the thing they said it was. Its just a normal transformation

[@2SpiralNika]

Thats the problem when you've decided that no matter how strong everyone is, Beerus will always be the "ceiling".

[@MichaelWhitmire-v6j]

Same for Goku black and garlic Jr,he was never defeated and will just keep getting stronger

[@Unfamiliar-Psychedelic]

All we know is that Freiza will kill Beerus for the newest arc, Knowing that Broly and or Gohan will have to surpass Freiza for the final battle of the series... So we can assume his strength from there

[@malachisanford2314]

​@Unfamiliar-Psychedelic you keep saying that. Do you have any evidence of this or is it your assumption?

[@creeperman1295]

The big issue is that even if you CAN justify it in universe -- either with headcanon or even the characters blatantly coming out and saying 'oh yeah, he was training off screen' or 'oh yeah, he was holding back', the narrative is still drastically weakened in any case as you mentioned near the end of the discussion. I think a lot of people try to misconstrue the story addressing a retcon as meaning that retcon is entirely justified, when in cases like Beerus, the main point of the writers needlessly keeping up a status quo is still intact.

[@juice2307]

Yep. Bad writing is bad writing. Lore excuses don’t make terrible narrative issues and a lack of an actual planned story arc disappear.

[@KYLE1654-v7m]

When you really think about it He is amazing at character design and world building but he sucks at writing good stories. He sucks at creating new transformations too seriously Goku Blue am sure the Recolored Fans that made Super Saiyan Blue before he did were excited and happy their awful creation is Canonized. 🤣

[@omarpro1495]

he was holding back which is literally confirmed lol and you can hold back same way vegeta did to let krilin damage him

[@creeperman1295]

@@omarpro1495 You’re missing the point lol

[@rory8182]

the problem is the same one that Super Saiyan Blue has. Beerus and SSJB were both designed with only two movies in mind (BoG and RezF) and nothing else beyond that. With Super existing they then had to try and run with it. Personally I think they did well, with the explainations being decent in lore reasons (Beerus wanted Goku's best so he made him think he was closer in strength) but obviously it may have been better if written from the start

[@tyr_1599]

It's crazy how every time we see a new transformation everyone is like "Is this stronger than Beerus?" and then well...

[@Bana_Frog]

I really hope that as soon as Black Frieza shows up he kills Beerus and it's revealed Beerus was training in the background too in order to set up Goku or Vegeta as a stronger replacement for him. Or just anything other than him always being 10 levels higher, I hate that. Edit: Like maybe Beerus is doing mental training every time he naps or some BS and he's fighting Zeno and 1 million spongebobs or whatever so he gets big level ups every time he naps, idfk.

[@sridrawings4510]

Basically yujiro in db verse

[@demigodofdestruction]

"BUT BUT BUT BUT DUUUDE HE'S NOT A-NOT A MOVING CEILING HE'S NOT A MOVING GOALPOST MAN!!!"

[@jaded9234]

He is and that's the great thing about him. He's not just some random stationary hurdle to hop over like everyone else. He's actually smart enough to NOT let that happen without an effort.

[@tree4444]

​​@@jaded9234problem is there is no explanation for why beerus is getting stronger other than plot which is bad writing.

[@inkchariot6147]

​@@jaded9234There's nothing smart about Beerus. His debut began Dragonball's downward spiral.

[@jaded9234]

@@inkchariot6147 No... that was the "Buu Arc" years before, then GT.Compared to that, "Super" is a godsend that took FAR too long.

[@wakkaseta8351]

@@jaded9234 You might've had a point if Beerus was ever shown training and not just sleeping and gorging himself constantly. Instead he's just Namek Freezer without the transformations.

[@PikUpYourPantsPatrol]

Battle of Gods was so pointless if you think about it now.

[@DADRB0B55]

It always was, Beerus was fun gag character but he always sucked & was poor writing. Whis however is a good character Watching sideline eating food made it even worse while you expected to take these weaker new fighters more seriously like black & golden Frieza which in concept I really liked.

[@jonathank786]

Literally they tossed aside SSG immediately in the next movie and only use it for fanservice it’s entertaining having Beerus and Whis around but there not doing much for the story than being side characters

[@PikUpYourPantsPatrol]

@@jonathank786 Yep, all this talk of prophecy, the SSG, then it's discarded

[@estandolore]

It wasn't pointless Toriyama wanted to do a new DB product because he hated DB Evolution and didn’t want that movie to be the last oficial movie of DB

[@PikUpYourPantsPatrol]

@@estandolore I'm talking about the story. SSG was a prophecy he had, it was supposed to rival him, now that concept has been discarded and Goku is still nowhere close to as strong as Beerus. Which means SSG was like an ant to Berrus, so why fight?

[@sugoidonia2420]

Beerus: wakes up to fight the mythical super saiyan god Also Beerus: is literally a billion times stronger than the super saiyan god anyway he wouldn't wake up for that shit lol

[@craigpeoples9883]

Exactly

[@SechsVerehrer3-qd9fu]

Compared to him everyone else is an Ant. SSJ God is to him like a mouse. Way more powerful than an ant and therefore a thing of interest, while not really a challenge.

[@br9760]

​@@SechsVerehrer3-qd9fuCats love mice lol

[@abhrobiswas4956]

​@samulhydenstein8208 Because he was already awake. And if you mean when he was child, Beerus also didn't wake up when Goku and Vegeta were a child.

[@TechnicSky]

@@SechsVerehrer3-qd9fu Fair. But, then why not let the mouse be? Why still be interested in the mouse and how it slightly grows even after you had your 'challenge' along with other things going on? I do get what you mean by that analogy, but then it just feels like Beerus is just along for the ride (when supposedly GoD aren't supposed to be messing with mortal affairs) or the story is trying to somehow justify WHY the mouse is a mouse and not a fennec or whatever that could properly challenge the cat that was interested in it in the first place.

[@michaelmamba1578]

Rest in peace Mr. Toriyama

[@Fitzness1]

Why is it so hard for dbs fans to realize these writers have no idea what they’re doing and they just say shit because it sounds cool. This is why power scalers will always be jobless losers because none of this shit means anything

[@calculator91]

Power scaling in a battle manga is what makes the story actually lead from one part to another. Without it the story makes *even less sense.*

[@TheNadroj10]

Truth. These stories are dumb and the plot just makes whoever strong for whatever moment of the show

[@dantesapprentice4581]

​@@calculator91 Nope. What makes the story lead from one part to another is the journey of the characters (primarily the main character) towards his goals. Power escalation is just one way of setting a new challenge. There are so many others. Skill difference and tactics are another, and this is typically seen in Jojo's (also a battle manga). Wear and tear, psychological damage and issues are another. This is seen in Berserk (also very much a battle manga). Power scaling is actually the part of the story that makes the least sense. Primarily because unless concretely stated otherwise, assumptions along the lines of A>B and B>C, therefore A>C are exactly that: assumptions. Secondarily because power scalers also have a tendency to take hyperbolic statements seriously. "He moved fast as lightning" could either mean the character actually moved with the speed of a lightning strike, OR it could be a poetic wording meant to say that he moves really fast (with the actual speed being undefined). This issue extends to things like using visual effects and depictions (size of craters, explosions etc.) to run calculations, since the artists DO NOT have any such calculations in mind when drawing these things. Also, as a side note, a lot of these calculations don't take into account all of the physical factors involved in the feat. And, as a really important side side note, it's kind of pointless to use real world physics to run calcs on fiction, purely because physics does not function the same in fictional worlds as it does in ours. There are similarities, yes. But it's nowhere close to 1:1.

[@Fitzness1]

@@calculator91 it’s a power fantasy fuck sense

[@broom673]

Power scaling is needed in a series like this because it is the only way to show progress in the characters. The problem is that Toriyama and Toei just aren't good at power scaling, so characters just rise and decrease in power dramatically out of nowhere, essentially leaving the dragon ball community to basically make up their own head canon to explain how Vegeta one shots Gotenks, but Trunks is relative to them when in similar forms despite the fact he's essentially shown to be Buu Arc SSJ2 level. The truth is, they were making this shit up as they went along. The ending of the Black arc is pretty much proof of this. It was essentially them realizing they had written themselves into a corner.

[@eugenekrabs2403]

I bet you Toriyama and/or Toyotaro could make a fight where Beerus fights both Vegito & Gogeta at the same time with both fusions deciding to fuse into Gogito (We'll say he's created via the dance & Beerus allows it) with that hypothetical OP fusion not being able to get Beerus to 50% of his true power

[@AnEnjoyerofYoutube]

*0.0000005%

[@venerablewu8744]

Current manga level goku and vegeta are too weak for their fusions to do anything at all Black frieza one shots vegito&gogeta And beerus would do the same with freiza

[@magirano768]

*Gogito uses a 100% full power blast that knocks beerus to the ground* *Beerus stands up slowly and dust himself off*: that was a great warm up, now let's take things up a notch Gogito: NANI?!! There's no way in hell your THIS powerful!

[@SirDubbs]

@@magirano768 ⁠Black Frieza joins in... Beerus: I might have to actually more than one finger this fight.

[@mynoname-ez2nk]

​@@SirDubbsand then frieza fuses with gogito creating frogito, but then beerus knocks them out using 0.1 percent of his power and nobody asks him about how he needed to use more power for a weaker enemy

[@tristysstuff6664]

Ah yes, Beerus the infinite goalpost. I really don't know why they don't just have Goku surpass Beerus but be behind Whis

[@Icy_dokkan]

Mainly because that would leave vegeta behind, or write beerus out of the picture completely

[@Mahlak_Mriuani_Anatman]

Beerus trains for millions of years

[@tristysstuff6664]

@@Icy_dokkan I mean Goku has surpassed masters in the past and let's be honest Beerus really doesn't do much for the narrative. The last time he did something of any significance was erase Zamasu and give Vegeta training that was primarily off screen. I feel like Keeping Beerus above Goku and Vegeta is legitimately pointless at this point especially since SSG alone was meant to rival him and they completely outclassed that by now so the narrative already looks Goofy still trying to say that Beerus not only stronger but completely slaps them around

[@samuelflipaclip7415]

@@tristysstuff6664pretty sure beerus is just the strongest god of destruction and that ssg and ssb over power certain gods like with jiren who surpassed his god.

[@loveinthevalley]

​@@tristysstuff6664super saiyan god was never meant to rival him. The point of the film/arc was to showcase Gokus unrelenting spirit in the face of absolute destruction (literally manifest), which is ultimately the human spirit. Anything else about that is made up.

[@kaykyrodrigues367]

When the gods were impressed by Goku's UI isn't because they're weaker than them, it's just an acknowledge of power since UI is an angelic technique.

[@Douglas628]

This is something I noticed back in 2013 the moment I finished watching Battle of Gods. Beerus states that after Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God, his power in *base Super Saiyan* didn't decrease compared to that form. Which let me thinking that, with the scalings they were throwing around in the movie, Goku could have possibly surpassed Beerus then and there by simply using Super Saiyan 2, since it doubles his power, Super Saiyan 3 would already completely eclipse him. I assumed Goku just didn't use those because he missed the opportunity to or just didn't consider it at the time. Then the Freeza movie comes around and he's somehow still weaker than Beerus with a Form that is supposed to the upgrade to God when in the prequel one-shot chapter *made specifically for that movie* it's implied that Goku is as strong as his SSG self from the Battle of the Gods in his base form.

[@acasualfanboy1862]

The Beerus/Belmod strength comment seems like a Toei fuck up, it is obvious Beerus in both the manga and the anime has some rivalry with Quitela not Belmod. This wouldn't be unusual since at the time Toei showed an episode preview with Jiren in place of Toppo for the exhibition match so it seems like they were some misunderstandings with the writting staff

[@KingdomAudy]

Its not a retcon guys beerus was surpassed many time but he has a special ability, every time he naps is power gets at least 50% higher

[@RunningToEnlightenment777]

Says who?

[@KingdomAudy]

@@RunningToEnlightenment777 my Grand Grand children Is actually toyotaro's best friend and told me

[@dootdootington386]

Makes as much sense as the saiyan zenkai boost tbh.

[@gregkareem9824]

Proof ?

[@Xenoblade47]

@@KingdomAudy False

[@ColdRavensNest]

Love the video, i think its the poor writing that makes them move the goal post over and over again because they want to keep beerus relevant as long as possible

[@Lilimrrp]

Yo Coldraven what you doing here?

[@wdadwdwdwadw8604]

wrong is the video itself that is wrong, in the manga not once was it stated that someone surpass god of destruction, if you watch the video and read the mang apanel Toppo states that Jiren surpass Belmond in terms of skill not Power fanboy once again confirm they cant read.

[@thugkermit9999]

⁠@@wdadwdwdwadw8604at least form a coherent sentence before defending patchy writing

[@yami122]

@@wdadwdwdwadw8604 Even even if what you say is true there is still the major issue that that the god of destruction set a percentage and thus a fixed amount of strength And the main characters and villains have long since hit points were simple logic say should be stronger than that god of destruction

[@Naius.Gabrius]

Thats why we read manga.

[@bottomtext593]

> This Saiyan surpassed the Gods > This Saiyan surpassed the Gods > This Saiyan can never beat a God of Destruction hm. 🤔

[@ronaldosorenstein3546]

The whole point of beerus is to be the ever moving goal post

[@3einEye]

It's as if at 23rd BT the when Goku was wounded, the turtle hermit stepped up and said that he'll take care of MeJunior. That would discard all the previous story arcs where Goku had clearly surpassed his level.

[@DADRB0B55]

Super has no shame when it comes to shit retcons

[@EmpireToday2800]

junior also said he could take on 100 roshis at once like lmao

[@Jk-en4qv]

Then, years later, roshi beats tien even though everyone, including chaiotzu and yajirobe far surpassed him 😂😂😂. Super is such garbage.

[@meeks6629]

5:29 Beerus stands out of respect for him because he’s a mortal who can ‘master’ a godly ability. Thus, a formulation of respect comes naturally

[@JordanGZZNoBodyGreaterThanHe]

Whats more problematic is if goku surpassed beerus. Everyone wants goku to surpass beerus so bad, but yall dont even think about what then, if the series continues and he's stronger then dragon ball is fucked up since every villain HAS to be stronger than goku who surpassed beerus and the structure and status of gods being the strongest is completely destroyed.

[@benikujaku4567]

This is not a true problem. It's the same kind of problem you had when the gang became stronger than Freeza. How would it make sense to have new threats if Freeza and his family were said to be the rulers of the universe and the strongest things around? Well‚ you can have new threats that either were hidden or sealed away (Buu‚ Androids 17 and 18)‚ or threats that just appeared (Cell)‚ or threats from other dimensions (Dabra). If Goku and Vegeta overtake Beerus‚ then it means they are the strongest in their universe... Again. That does not change anything. There can still be threats from other times‚ or from other dimensions‚ or (and that's the most important) they can become GoDs themselves. Vegeta is in the right way with UEgo it seems. And of course‚ Zen'O and the Grand Priest are meant to be the final threats of all. Having G and V become stronger than Beerus is not a problem‚ it just means they don't have that safety pillow (that they didn't have in Z anyway) and can be called to check on threats on the godly scale. Wasn't that the whole point of Battle of Gods? Sering Goku actually step into the realm of gods? That he hasn't yet is almost a plothole and denotes a very much lacking storytelling.

[@JordanGZZNoBodyGreaterThanHe]

@@benikujaku4567 your points were understandable bit the comparison were terrible no offense, your comparing mortals to other mortals and even if frieza is said to be ruler of the universe it only makes sense that the other humans surpass him in super since tien as early as cell saga stopped cemi perfect cell and that guy would one shot frieza so i wouldn't find it hard to believe that now they could one shot him. Next he's a fucking god a destruction the last and strongest god anyone ever wants to encounter and on a narrative stand point having mortals surpass the gods would again ruin the status of super and even make me question are angels in danger of being surpassed but because they cant fight what can happen if an enemy can kill everyone on db, ik im thinking far but it can get to that point of they keep going.

[@benikujaku4567]

@@JordanGZZNoBodyGreaterThanHe There is no reason gods should be always at the top. GoDs are just really powerful mortals after all (see Toppo). Narratively‚ it makes no sense to have forever unbeatable creature in a manga like Dragon Ball. The gang were the strongest in the universe (that we knew of) after each saga of Dragon Ball Z‚ it's no surprise that they should also be at the end of Super.

[@broom673]

The angels and Zeno would just become next. In case you forgot, the Grand Priest and Zeno were literally about to genocide over half of the multiverse over a tournament and a wish.

[@donovangunther4538]

??? You say this as if it's never happened in db before? Goku surpassed Kami before z even started and the solution was just to retcon divinity and move the goalposts to some other character. It's no big deal.

[@mr.goatgetaofcl]

17:18 The T.O.P occurs almost immediately after the Future Trunks Saga. It consists of the 24 hours of preparation for the tournament, the few days/weeks of waiting time, etc. Plus, the Broly movie occurs right after the T.O.P. and it takes place over less than a day. Therefore, Gogeta Blue wasn't that much later than Vegito Blue-indicating the Gogeta is still the GOAT. Also, canonically, we should see Goku's body getting stolen by Zamasu since the Goku in Goku black is one year ahead(if Toei remembers to add that in).

[@estandolore]

5:39 I mean Goku is like 50 years old and some GoD are like mileniums old, Goku basicly did a Speedrun in dominating UI if you think about it.

[@Nyrufa]

The gods standing in respect to UI Goku may be due to the fact that Whis specifically mentions that Ultra Instinct is difficult even for the gods themselves to master. In other words, Goku achieved a state of being that the destroyers struggle with, thus earning their respect.

[@FagnerLSantos]

This is probably the most complete video on KZbin about this narrative problem of Super. Nice work!

[@andregardiner3071]

“Vegeta was able to punch beerus at an earlier point but couldn’t later” maybe beerus was idk holding back more considering he literally told Vegeta I was goin easy on u so yh one would think after that beerus wouldn’t make the same mistake again considering the fact that he one shot Vegeta the second he took it less easy the first fight then he one shot him again makes sense

[@juice2307]

We all know it’s superficial though. Past information makes it clear that Beerus has no right to be stronger when he ought to have been surpassed a while ago. You can say “but this might be why, so it makes sense,” but that doesn’t change the fact that those explanations only exist because the writing and story plan is outright bad. In fact, it just isn’t properly thought out at all. It’s bad storytelling and lazy.

[@sirmenace8161]

@@juice2307this is ur opinion but u don’t dictate when beerus should be surpassed U can call it bad writing all u want to but the fact still stand’s nothing was ever stated in the manga that goku/vegeta surpassed beerus it was always just fan assumptions w/ 0 proof The manga made is clear MULTIPLE times that beerus is the #1 g.o.d & was never surpassed by goku/vegeta

[@stickinittotheman1]

​​​@@sirmenace8161Please learn proper punctuation and grammar before you attempt to argue on the internet; your lack of effort is exemplified in your statements. You don't have to dislike a series to criticize it: In fact, almost everyone here enjoys the series, a lot; that's why we get frustrated with lazy writing, and want something better for the series going forward.

[@sirmenace8161]

@@stickinittotheman1 Idc about whether or not my grammar is top of the line, I said what i said. I state facts & u wanna bitch about grammar😂if u don’t stfu this is the internet, not a college english class

[@sirmenace8161]

@@stickinittotheman1 i also never said it was the best writing, or that i loved it or anything like that. I stated the facts because ppl are running around making false narratives about the powerscaling. Mainly because they can’t read or interpret the story properly.

[@DV-ql4jw]

Beerus after getting mildly pressed by someone: "so i just got stronger"

[@CrocoDylianVT]

my personal theory, he and Whis actually lie about his power to encourage Goku and Vegeta to keep getting stronger

[@mrkat8137]

I feel like if the anime gets continued, they'll have it make more sense. They'll have the opportunity to show Beerus attempt UI and idk do some training and show off his UE. To be like "Goku has his UI but it won't matter after a while, I'd surpass him in an instant" in regards to him making UE. Idk but yeah most of everything has been character surprisingly has tons of potential and 2 mins of training = god power so they could be lazy and do the same with beerus

[@blairm6128]

My personal head cannon is that after the TOP the gods decided that its too dangerous for the mortals to be more powerful than the gods. So they gathered the super dragon balls and wished that the destroyer gods and angels will naturally grow in response to the mortal power levels that are in their universe. I know it's head cannon but it does make everything true...to a certain point of view. Also since whis states that the destroyers have a hard time using ui reliably. They could have been standing just to pay respect to a mortal that achieved such a high master of martial prowess. It doesn't have to be an acknowledgement that he's stronger than them, it's just repect for the achievement

[@raidenwithbiden5762]

that a great way to put that in cannon

[@biohazardbin]

the fact you have to use headcanon proves the quality of this series.

[@revengenerd1]

I have a better head canon, destroyers get their power or at least a boost to their power based on the mortals in their universe, as Goku and Vegeta get more powerful so does Beerus, as Goku was the only one with god ki when he faced Beerus and Frieza was dead and at low enough level Beerus only had a certain level of power. Now we have so many powerful beings Beerus own power has been amped by it he probably has a limit though and/or only gets a certain boost from each mortal but its enough to be unreachable.

[@crisstoff89]

Why is it hard to accept that he was a moving goal , since Toriyama didnt expect much after BOG the same after Yo Goku and friends. Its not that deep.

[@blairm6128]

@crisstoff89 it's headcannon. We can ne as deep as we want. It's ok to theorize about this stuff. It isn't hurting anyone

[@bihaagnepaul4277]

Finally someone made a video about beerus's power scaling.

[@Saints779]

Maybe just simply, beerus is training and we don’t see it happen. It could be that he just never needed to train once he achieved his GoD status until he saw that there are mortals that are quickly reaching his power. So he now has to train but doesn’t want anyone to know about it. But the saiyans and villains just keep catching up exponentially fast so beerus has to keep going as well

[@PradhyumnBalodhi]

The power system is Dragon Ball Super is fucked up. I lost it when Gohan achieved a new form and the new form was comparable to UI Goku and Ultra Ego Vegeta , I mean achieving new forms just instantly without training and surpassing God Ki without training is just fucked up.

[@jbillion]

That one at least has some historical backing. Aside from SSJ2, Gohan has more or less just had his potential unlocked by other characters. I'm not sure if this is a translation thing, but iirc half Saiyans have more potential than full Saiyans they just lack the instinct to grow stronger. Now Piccolo was a straight ass pull

[@PradhyumnBalodhi]

@@jbillion For ssj2 he did training but he was much weaker after that you can see that in Frieza movie but he just got stronger and now compared to UI Goku and UE Vegeta.

[@wilhelmczorniczek1424]

Genuinely I think you can explain that Beerus stays stronger than them because he too is training, with Whis. Right?

[@thomashobbes7429]

That makes the most sense

[@malekat8539]

It would make sense if it was shown, spoken about, or hinted to, And even if they do that now, it's an asspull writing tactic to come up with a reason for his progression in power. It's beyond saving at this point for the power development of Beerus

[@toughmangaming8275]

This is definitely true, my big criticism though is that most of that is unseen for some bizarre reason. thanks for the watching!

[@vura8848]

​@@toughmangaming8275why would it be seen? He's not the main character. And plus you say him being stronger than gogeta is a retcon when whis had stated b4 when they initially got ssb that he could NOT beat him unless they worked together which hinted at fusion

[@mrsmith3841]

I dont know beerus naps for thousands of years and is the laziest being in universe 7 i doubt he would train

[@Just_abigheadnoob]

16:08 exactly. But anyone with two brain cells would simply make Whis the next goalpost, guess thats what toyo/toriyama are missing. Anyway, post ToP Goku/vegeta still have more to work for. Infact theres whis the upper echelon of angels , grand priest and omni king. The fact that its been beerus for so long even after they intended him to be surpassed makes it seem like goku/ vegeta aren’t improving at all.

[@malekat8539]

No. Please, don't make Whis the next goalpost. That will take all the prestige away from angels and ruin the powers calling since Goku and Vegeta are that strong. By that metric, all the other z casts would be too to keep up with them, and antagonists will be unreasonably strong. Even if you don't make the Z casts keep up with Goku/Vegeta, you'll be stuck with a Goku & Vegeta show, and all other character loses relevance in the series

[@nekothesoul7171]

Yeah that’s why you should just respect what they got going on because beerus is still a god of destruction

[@toughmangaming8275]

I understand this take, it would be really funny if at some point I could say definitively that Krillin beats Beerus because the story needs him to catch up to Goku

[@toughmangaming8275]

@@malekat8539 This here is a fair take, I totally understand and see the repercussions of making them stronger than Whis. That being said, it would be very interesting to see what could happen if this were the case.

[@King_gilgamesh123]

Considering that no one in universe 7 is stronger than beerus, and angels are simply leagues beyond a destroyer I wouldn’t be surprised if other angels could destroy a god a destruction with a finger, mui goku needed his entire body to block planet Moro and he was shown having some struggle while whis blocked it with one finger, without even looking. To be frank I don’t think goku or vegeta will ever make it to the grand priest level

[@grydon6422]

Good video! Couple of things you actually missed! The God scale is not the only retcon of Beerus’ power at the start of Super! While in the Battle of Gods arc it is not stated directly that Beerus used 70% of his power like in the movie, it is clear they has a similar ballpark in mind for the arc. The clearest indication is simply the fact that Beerus was greatly entertained by the fight, which would not be the case if he used less than 1% of his power even against God Goku. Then the God form would not have made any difference to Beerus in regards to excitement compared to when Goku was fighting him in ssj3 and got smacked, as the power difference would still be insignificant. But Beerus was greatly satisfied. In addition to that, there is a line by Beerus that backs this up nicely. When raged ssj2 Vegeta attacked Beerus, after the assault Beerus comments (and kind of monologues) that it had been a long time since he had to use *10%* of his power. First of all this statement was kind of monologue so there is no point in Beerus lying to himself anf the audience out loud. And secondly, it was *only* 10%. All of what Vegeta did, surpassing even ssj3 Goku for a moment, and Beerus only needed 10% of his power to shrug it off, while Beerus thinks that is impressive. That is the same style of narrative they used on Namek where Frieza is picking our protagonist apart while using only 50% of his maximum power, injecting fear on the reader/watcher. That is not a statement meant to be a lie, quite the opposite; the fact it only took 10% to shrug all that off was the insult to injury in its truthness. And if he used 10% of his power against ssj2 Vegeta already, then *of course* SS God Goku forced Beerus to use much more than that. I’ve always thought that 50% is the absolutely minimum, and 70% being the maximum, and that makes sense with the narrative; Beerus would be satisfied, but not beaten, and does go in line somewhat with the source material. The problem arises when the story actually continues eith rapid power growth. And the first retcon of Beerus’ power happens already in U6 arc tournament arc, where Goku reveals SSB Kaioken. SSB Kaioken x10 *far* surpasses BoG arc Beerus. Far surpasses him. Kaioken is nice in the sense that it is pure math. Let’s say the raged Vegeta, who pushed Beerus to use 10% of his power, would use Kaioken x10 on top of his ssj2 = that would already force Beerus to use his 100% power. Let’s say that SSG Goku forced Beerus to use only 10% of his power, the same amount as ssj2 Vegeta, so a massive lowball, and let’s say U6 tournament SSB Goku would only be tiny bit stronger and be able to push Beerus to use 20% of his power, Goku would only need Kaioken x5 to match Beerus’ 100% power. No matter how you slice it, Beerus’ strength needed to be upscaled already at that point for his and Goku’s power to be even comparable anymore. And I believe that is why they included the scene where Beerus was sweating and worried, and then tried to play it cool, because the anime staff knew they kind of f it up and werent sure what to do with Beerus’ power. Then they retconned his power *again* during ToP, where Beerus is clearly portrayed to be much stronger than the even stronger SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku, so much for sweating over much weaker SSB Kaiokenx10. And then Goku finally surpasses him when He achieves MUI, as confirmed by Whis’ statement of Jiren>Belmod>Beerus. But then he hasn’t surpassed Beerus suddenly when the manga portrays Beerus far above everyone again, like you said in the video. So at this point, Beerus must have used like 0.1% of his power against God Goku and was just having a war against falling asleep due to boredom during that fight, despite his obvious excitement back then.. And in addition, all of the God of Destructions have been portrayed as a *similar power tier* multiple times, which was hammered home even with the Zeno expo in the manga where they battled equally together, and for examle Belmod was able to affect all the GoDs at the same time with his attacks, Beerus included; despite all this, at this point Beerus is just suddenly astronomically stronger than Belmod and the other GoDs because they already set a ceiling for him but keep pumping up beerus’ power.. it’s a mess..

[@salvoniccordova5737]

Ain't reading all that

[@clorurodesodioinseguro6304]

I did read all that

[@TheStupidNoodleBoi]

I read half of that

[@sammydray5919]

​@@salvoniccordova5737 For your small attention span the tldr is that they set a perceived ceiling for Beerus power but each arc keeps raising it to make sure he isn't surpassed but always end up making it inconsistent to previous arc.

[@salvoniccordova5737]

@@sammydray5919 still too long upload your response with subway surfer please

[@joelance5672]

I think the writers now have a set goal, though I still can be proven wrong in the coming chapters. I think with the trajectory of the manga, the full-blooded saiyans are about to overcome the destroyer levels by the time the "end-of-Z" rolls around. Considering the granolah arc is actually the "universes strongest" arc, Black Frieza is the current strongest in the universe by a margin, and Beerus is now contemplating retirement. Meaning hopefully vegeta gets to hakai black frieza, broly get's to control his anger and LSS (LSS being a power rivaling Beerus that Broly just can't control yet) and grow from there, and finally Beerus ain't beating Goku. Whether or not you disagree with some of that, I think that's the ballpark. So after that, the next challenges for the gang would be the Zeno's and the angels. If not that, the writers will probably create other God-tier characters like the new race of demon's speculated being introduced in Daima. What I'm saying is that if they are gonna continue with Super 2, Goku and Vegeta will most likely be fighting ON PAR with genuine deity level threats from end-of-Z onwards, just in time for uub to strut his god ki.

[@Rain_Gauge]

Thank you for this. This has made me realize that my brain is rotting from all these videos. I will go outside today. Thank you sir! 🙏

[@ParadiseDB7]

Sure let's just make an entire video and completely ignore the line where Beerus said he lied to motivate Goku. One line debunks your entire video.

[@sridrawings4510]

Doesn't matter....still counts

[@ParadiseDB7]

@@sridrawings4510 it does not

[@sridrawings4510]

@@ParadiseDB7 it does

[@ParadiseDB7]

@@sridrawings4510 it literally debunks his entire point bud. Don't start fangirling let's be respectful

[@sridrawings4510]

@@ParadiseDB7 I am not even fan girling....also even if he lied about beings using his 70% or 7 % of his power....there aren't no way ssjg goku gonna land a punch on beerus face....so therefore......db aren't consistent with his power level system

[@ethangrasmick770]

This is the only dbz content i consume on yt keep it up man

[@toughmangaming8275]

Thanks so much man, I really appreciate it

[@ianprescott7924]

This isn’t DBZ

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

Casual Anime guy has a video detailing the difference in powerscaling between the show and the manga. Hence why I keep saying TRUTH that the DBS mang is NONCANON

[@baddragonite]

Hakai is so annoying to me "Oh we'll make an instant death thing so there will be stakes" "Oh wait no you can just tank it"

[@drewmcvinney]

Why is beerus being surprised by goku in the tournament an issue at all??? He’s just impressed because goku is a mortal that keeps surprising limits. It’s that simple

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

2:00 This pretty much sums up the entirety of DBS. There is no in-show logic its just stuff happening so that we can get to the 'member berries. HEY! REMEMBER THAT THING YOU LIKE! WELL HERE IT IS AGAIN! No thought went into this show at all so using anything from Super to explain anything from Z is an exercise in madness

[@Meshure]

Rip Akira Toriyama

[@WilliamWizer]

in short. beerus is the goal of a race that can't be won. he will be upgraded to a level above ever other oponent goku may face. even if goku defeated zeno (they would never fight but you know what I mean) Beerus would still be able to wipe the floor with goku.

[@toughmangaming8275]

It would be really funny if Goku was stronger than Zeno but Beerus beat him. Maybe Toyo is pulling the long con...

[@WilliamWizer]

@@toughmangaming8275 nah. zeno is way more powerful. you could have a multi fusion with goku UI+vegeta UE+beast gohan+broly+beerus+whis+black fireza+ orange piccolo and it would still be weaker than zeno. but zeno isn't a fighter. there's no reason for goku and zeno to fight. beerus is the most powerful fighter in the multiverse since neither the angels nor zeno are fighters.

[@vgmaster-js2zv]

When it comes to characters stating that other characters are stronger than Beerus or maybe stronger than Beerus is that these characters almost certainly do not know the ceiling of Beerus' power. They can only guess. And Beerus' reactions are more in regards to just Goku's amazingly quick growth and attainment of techniques that he has yet to master, and not that Goku is actually stronger than Beerus

[@Zer0Main43]

No guys, Beerus’ species gets Zenkai boosts but instead of from pushing limits and intense battle, it’s from napping, eating, mollywhopping people millions of times weaker than you, vaguely saying you can beat someone and specifically NOT training, that’s why he’s so strong because he only ever does those 3 things

[@goldengamerhd4469]

I agree that the constantly changing ceiling is irritating but I think that this problem goes back to how the movies (dbs specifically), anime, and manga are three different canons, for example in the movies when Goku and vegeta talk about the tournament of power Goku having ultra instinct isn’t mentioned and it specifically states that jiren might have ultra instinct which makes me think that toriyama doesn’t want/think Goku has ui

[@marcocartaerainnocente7374]

5:18 this is actually a dumb take. Every god of destruction stood up out of respect cuz he mastered ultra instinct in such short time, not because he’s stronger than them. They acknowledged his talent, not his strength

[@rory8182]

this, UI is a technique that is difficult to use, especially for trained fighters. The gods respect what he is able to accomplish, not fear what he can do

[@nomad6169]

Which is why Beerus was smiling, he saw that Goku really breaks his own limits for a mortal

[@HakiKingEntertainment]

Mastering a technique and being stronger are two different things Goku has been able to pick up techniques many take their entire life to learn within a day, I have never seen that scene as all the gods seeing Goku as the strongest there, I saw it as all of them respecting his mastery of a technique they don't fully have down yet, which makes more sense I believe

[@Hymn_]

ikr

[@sieiridiufjfjr5102]

simple headcanin explanation is that beerus was just tireed from having just woke up

[@Nicholebar]

I do think that when Toyotaro eventually decides to end super, he will have the final fight between both Goku and beerus and have him leave the story permanently

[@TFF_Onida]

most of the issues are because of the viewers' own assumptions. for example u said ssjb evolved vegeta should be stronger than MUI goku from the tournament of power, which just isnt right. Its stated that SSJB Vegito is on par with beerus in the manga. (SSJB vegito > Beerus) in the anime its stated merged zamasu is above the gods, and merged zamasu was fighting toe to to with Vegito. (SSJB Vegito > Anime Merged Zamasu > Beerus) In the Broly Movie its stated broly is stronger than beerus, and broly gets bullied by ssjb gogeta with no difficulty, which makes sense because broly movie gogeta should be more powerful than black arc vegito who was rivaling beerus. (Gogeta >> Broly = Vegito > Zamasu > Beerus) Its stated Jiren is more powerful than Belmod, and everyone assumes that means Jiren is more powerful than beerus because belmod beat beerus. but beerus himself said that was just an arm wrestling contest and he would not lose to belmod in actual combat. (Gogeta >> Broly = Vegito > Zamasu > Jiren = MUI goku > Belmod) Issues only preset themselves if you believe MUI goku is stronger than Black arc SSJB Vegito, which i dont believe, fusion is stated to be the power of both parties multiplied by each other, it should be a much bigger boost than MUI even if base goku is 200x stronger in the tournament arc than base goku in the black arc (which again i dont think is the case) As for the beerus using 60% of his power thing, the movie isnt canon to the show so while it doesnt make sense it can just be ignored entirely.

[@toughmangaming8275]

Okay so there's a lot to tackle here. Ngl, I'm a bit confused by the mixing of continuities here but I am gonna try to respond to the best of my abilities. I do not remember fused zamasu being stated to be above the other GoD's. Also the line about Vegito being stronger than Beerus is manga only, so it doesn't apply to anime VB vs FZ. Also i do beleive that MUI Goku from the ToP (in the anime at least) is stronger than VB from the GB arc. I explained it in my previous video if you wanna check it out, but there are multiple reasons to believe this. An easy explanation is that MUI Goku > Blue Vegito as God Goku > Post Z Vegito (that being a hypothetical fusion of Goku and Vegeta right after the Buu Saga). This is because we know from Goku's own words that vegito wouldn't be able to beat Beerus but SSG gave Beerus a run for his money; meaning that the SSG form in of itself surpassed the power of a fusion of the level below (An SS3(?) fusion). I think the same applies to UI where the power of UI in of itself is stronger than the power of a fusion of the level below (SSB fusion).

[@TFF_Onida]

@@toughmangaming8275 I forget what the exact quote was but i remember anime zamasu saying something like he's surpassed the gods. As for MUI being a greater than blue fusion, i get what you're saying but base buu saga vegito was stronger than buu saga ssj3 goku and that's a 3 transformation gap. not to mention ssj1 vegito being waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay stronger than ssj3 goku despite the 2 transformation gap. In the case of super saiyan god being stronger than a post buu saga ssj3 vegito (assuming vegito can even use ssj3) i would argue its just because ssj god is a power up in a completely different level than the standard ssj transformations in the same way SSJ4 is to the great ape transformation. i dont think the difference between UI and SSJB is as big as the difference between base goku and ssj3 (400x)

[@alkatraz9171]

meh, imo he was toying with goku, and we not know yet his true strenght

[@toughmangaming8275]

That's totally fair!

[@ryan215553]

They could easily explain this by saying Beerus has been training off screen.

[@serPomiz]

or even just "he has not been training in much longer than he shouldn't, so he's not at his best no matter what he's saying, now he started getting back on it"

[@100nakpvp2]

Or because Ultra ego is a form in path of a destroyer same was ui is angel path. They can say beerus can transform...

[@realSerran]

RIP Akira Toriyama 3-1-24. Your work changed the world and multiple industries forever. You will be missed. May God be with all who loved him.🙏

[@Shazam1998]

My take on this is: People care way too much. Its really not that big of a deal, people are just searching for something to complain about.

[@thevipez8740]

It's not the worst thing every but it is definitively a retcon, and people try to argue against it even though its objectively true.

[@albertscott4599]

He is a forever moving goal post

[@Just_abigheadnoob]

Genuinely sick of the beerus retcons. The only way i could think of fixing this is if they explained that he had been doing some form of training since the oracle fish warned him that his biggest rivals would soon surpass him. We literally see beerus catnap all the time at the very least it should have been some form of deep meditative state he goes in to enhance his power, i feel like that sort of gimmick would make sense for his character. but even then introducing that concept now just seems asspully and low effort. honestly would have been better if they just allowed him to be surpassed in TOP and have whis be the next goalpost, infact whis is in more of a deserving spot to be a goalpost for Goku and co. since we know how absurdly strong angels are. They could drag it out like how they do with beerus except this time it would actually make sense.

[@Afraidofwomen]

yeah it's just jarring. it makes no sense for beerus to be this strong.

[@DoubleBoost23]

I might be remembering wrong, and it should've been introduced in Canon by now if it does exist, but doesn't Beerus in one of the Xenoverse games explicitly say he pretty much _does_ do some sort of sleep-meditation training that pretty much works wonders for him? Even if it were Canon, though, Beerus' stuff pretty much would be a retcon given the series treats it like he's just never had his full power reached before except by Quitela (did I spell his name right?) in the manga.

[@orbboom6119]

They could explain it via the GOD's technique, as we saw with Vegeta and Ultra Ego, he gets stronger and stronger as he fights, tho he couldnt make 100% use of it since his mind wasnt fully on destruction unlike Beerus'. So Beerus may have been surpassed but he could just get stronger via ultra ego, and just look at how strong vegeta and goku and everyone in super gets, beerus getting stronger aint really that crazy.

[@rcqr4148]

just add a law that no being will surpass a destroyer and make it like a gas situation, no matter how strong u become i will climb even higher and be the strongest forever lol

[@malekat8539]

No. Please, don't make Whis the next goalpost. That will take all the prestige away from angels and ruin the powers calling since Goku and Vegeta are that strong. By that metric, all the other z casts would be too to keep up with them, and antagonists will be unreasonably strong. Even if you don't make the Z casts keep up with Goku/Vegeta, you'll be stuck with a Goku & Vegeta show, and all other character loses relevance in the series

[@nOT_sURE08]

I always just assumed Beerus trains off screen like Gohan. It seems kind of out of character at first but seeing how far Goku is coming along might have been the motivation Beerus needed to train more.

[@i.f.a2132]

Beerus being a 10, Goku being 6 and Whis being 15, does not mean their powrs are linearly apart from each other! It's probably just showing the distance of power between the combatants, not that Goku times 2 would be superior to Beerus! The number 6, 10 and 15 probably are categories/plateaus of power! Goku may be at 7 or 8 right now! Doubling is hower, does not mean he will jump up a tier! His feats have after all not changed all that much! He would still be in the universal to low-multiversal range of power!

[@TheDeadGunslinger]

Jiren wasn't stronger than the GoDs. His pure combat ability was. Meaning if you removed all Ki and special God boosts, Jiren would be stronger.

[@thevipez8740]

What are you even talking about? Jiren is defintively stated to be stronger than "a god of destruction" and at least belmod. Theres never given a disclaimer or anything that he is only stronger if they hold back or something lol

[@iamtheshadows4916]

Not in manga​@@thevipez8740

[@tadeolaguarda6965]

What are you taking abaut? DBS dosn't do retcons and it is perfectly consistent, everybody knows that(I'm joking, but there are people that actually say that)

[@yao.aboagye]

I’m glad someone is saying it. Everyone is acting like his ceiling hasn’t been moving

[@chainsawz5618]

the ceiling hasn't moved, the ceiling is just sloped and people like pretending that since they're only looking at a very tiny portion of it that they know the exact shape of the rest of the celing

[@meowsquared]

My theory is that no amount of raw power is going to ever see Goku or Vegeta become able to match Beerus. They are constantly breaking through barriers to further boost their raw power, but only recently has their focus specifically shifted to mastering their finesse and proficiency with God ki and godly techniques. Beerus says it himself in the Moro fight that Goku in UI has started to fight like a god. This implies that Goku now has finally started to tap into something that he lacked. Not just the power of a god, but the mindset to truly harness that power. In that sense, their powers have finally become unbounded by their mindsets and they can truly start growing closer to their true ceilings.

[@deadringer-cultofdeathratt8813]

I figured they stood up because they can’t use that technique specifically. Like if the spirit bomb was notoriously hard to use and then someone used it, then regardless of their strength compared to yours, their ability to use a technique that you haven’t figured out yet is worthy of a standing ovation, even if that individual is weaker. That’s what I figured was going on with the ultra instinct. Even looking at the hakai situation, beerus’s has a different nature than toppo’s mid ahh hakai. Beerus has a much more advanced variant of the technique. So even if gold did get stronger… “if”, then what would make beerus come out on top would be his proficiency with hakai as we’ve only seen it being used as a gun. I’d assume if he was fighting for real then his arsenal would be based around it.

[@diddly-squat9332]

If they had braincells, they could've show us that Beerus is getting stronger both via mental training (while sleeping) and/or sparring with Whis, Goku and Vegeta from time to time. It's just as bad as they forgetting that they could use the god ritual to give the power of a god to Vegeta, Gohan, Goten and Trunks just after the events of Battle of Gods (And don't give me the "Vegeta would not accept it" because he wanted to be the one, and also added that next time it would have been is turn). Super, overall, was far more rushed than Dragon Ball was at its time, and, despite the manga having a monthly release, still has much less consistency and thoughts put into it. The only reason I'm still into it, is because of the lore alone, the story is a constant mess, a lot of things contradict the original manga, including details like Shin stating that he learned about potara by the Dai Kaioshin, instead of his own predecessor.

[@DreamsofAbsolution]

Beerus should never be getting stronger, he should be the ceiling

[@Toro_offer]

In my opinion the best way is to make goku and vegeta surpass beerus and make trunks and goten the main characters

[@DawnSolar]

I would disagree on the G.o.D standing up in respect take. It would still make sense. Same reason why a parent would stand up and clap for a child getting an “A” in school. Doesn’t mean that they are smarter than the parent, just means that they have respect for their accomplishments

[@DBZMacky]

It's very obvious that the real reason for the moving goalpost is so that they can drag out the story beat of the main characters needing to surpass Beerus and the Angels. However, I do like an in-universe explanation that I came up with after thinking about it a bit. I'll quote on of my other favorite Anime, Kaiji; "Imagine a basketball hoop 100 meters in the sky. No one will attempt a shot. You are now frustrated at that unreachable hoop. Everything you desire is behind the show window. You can’t reach it. And, the stress of having no spending power… makes you down-hearted and unmotivated." This is human nature. I believe Beerus wanted to motivate Goku by implying that he needed to train just that little bit more every time. Of course, I think Goku still would've wanted to surpass Beerus even if he knew how big the gap between them really was, but Beerus wouldn't know that, would he? There's few mortals as self-motivated as Goku and if Beerus really believed in the Oracle Fish's prophecy, he'd do anything in his power to cultivate a strong rival.

[@BloeshanX]

omg power level guy

[@sol-dono1235]

"If goku isnt stronger that beerus, why would he stand out of respect for him?" BECAUSE HE A MORTAL THAT PULL UI OUTTA NOWHERE. If i see an ant lift a ceramic plate, its still weaker than me, but is stronger than i could have fathomed.

[@diddy6707]

The reason why all of the GoD’s stood up was because no MORTAL has ever done something like using ultra instinct. That’s a massive feat not even the GoD’s have accomplished so why wouldn’t they stand up out of respect for the mortal who used the technique of the Angels

[@empy0120]

shoutout to another toughman gaming banger‼️

[@toomberrebmoot9244]

My theory is that Beerus is a 4th dimensional entity manifesting in a 3D form for the convenience of those he determines should be destroyed or not. Kinda like Pennywise from IT where the Loser’s Club sees him as whatever they fear most because his true form would fry their brains. The difference between 4D and 3D is a factor of infinity both in complexity and power, so it’s no wonder they can’t really surpass him. Even in GT, Goku ascends to a higher dimension of power, making him invincible against Omega Shenron when he launches the Spirit Bomb at him, prompting OG Shenron to take Goku to a 4D plain of existence.

[@Hymn_]

reminds me of dangai ichigo vs hogyoku aizen. ichigo was way higher than aizen to the point of effortlessly stop aizen's slash with his fingers and pretty much destroy anything with ease

[@victorpresti]

I like how people take scaling seriously in an anime where master Roshi dodges Jiren’s attacks. The explanation is simple: they have no idea what they’re doing. The power scaling went to hell and it’s whatever they write rather than making any logical in-universe sense.

[@therebelofchaos1674]

Yeah this is pretty much why I ignore everything past Buu Saga. Honestly I don't even like Buu Saga cause it started to go this way in that saga too. Cell is where it ends for me, but at least Buu Saga has some cool moments. Super is just stupid and incompetent.

[@Hymn_]

roshi dodged jiren's attack because jiren was holding back real real real hard and roshi basically has pseudo ui. so it does make sense

[@victorpresti]

@@Hymn_ Suuure. If I hold back real real real hard against an ant, it'll still end in the ant being squashed. Roshi is a stronger human. He's not nearly as strong as someone like Yamcha, who's weak enough to get defeated by a base Saiyajin with a single finger. Let alone Super Saiyajin, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSG, SSB who are all exponentially stronger than before.. and for Jiren all of those are children's play.

[@Hymn_]

@@victorpresti well duh, jiren knows how to properly control his power. he's basically suppressing himself to the point of being around at the same level as roshi or else he would accidentally kill roshi. it's not that hard

[@victorpresti]

@@Hymn_ Sure. At least in the manga they realized how DUMB that sounds and had Jiren promptly defeat Roshi once he 'took him seriously enough,' I guess.

[@DAGIEBOB]

Beerus: Nah, id get stronger

[@blackattack1840]

At the end of the day, it's just a cartoon made up on the spot by a Japanese guy who doesn't put too much thought into the wiki's worth of lore it's generated over the decades. He messes up sometimes and forget things. Then nerds like us get upset when the illusion of a storied master plan is broken.

[@damarkomoore5236]

Exactly I love dragon ball but it’s clear toriyama doesn’t really care too much about it anymore and I can’t even blame him because db is like 40 years old and people still want content lol

[@aaronsound]

Thank you!