The Best Deck and My Worries. | Flesh and Blood TCG Week 3 Breakdown

[@tony1234ize]

There is a good lesson to learn from heroes rotating. Marry the class, date the hero. Collect the class cards for the next hero for the future

[@DMArmada]

This is a fantastic take

[@VeganCATS1]

Not that easy, Dash is my favorite hero, but I don't like the other 2 Mechanologists, especially Teklovossen. Luckily for me, Dash I/O already exists, but Fans of other heroes don't have that luxury. (better example would be that I love Prism and liked her playstyle way more than Dromais and most of the cards from Prism wouldn't even carry over to the Dragon Illusionist)

[@sting2291]

I love this take and believe it is the plan LSS is following! Didn't they increased the LL points rewarded specifically bc of higher hero velocity? Maybe we will see ll'd heroes getting reintroduced into the meta via armory decks as well!

[@Barf_FaB]

F*ck, Murder, Marry... go

[@Vektor480]

This is pretty smart from a playstyle standpoint, but individual hero identity is important as well. I love Victor but don't care at all about any of the other guardians. I'd argue that for some people, the hero's visuals and gimmicks trump the class they belong to and are the factors that drive people to play them.

[@supermarioblacktiger]

The irony of Kayo being the first armory CC deck while rocketing towards LL. "I GOT MY ARMORY DECK! and now I can't play it...."

[@DMArmada]

That's the scary spot that we are in

[@crayyonnyadrav4055]

Can we also talk about the "secret" hero from Heavy Hitters? Like, Prism just sat there with a whopping 0 points on the board, and that new Luminaris thing she got just catapulted her to such heights.

[@clarkmoore4]

I do wish that these new heroes were moving a bit slower up the LL ladder so that people investing in the decks can enjoy them for longer, but I also acknowledge that it's important to not be tied to a specific hero. I've found that once I started playing multiple heroes (some good, some not) I enjoyed Flesh and Blood a lot more.

[@andrewmccormack4526]

Remember Starvo, we just wanted that gone and the LL points couldnt be high enough. This is the flip side of that argument . I like the idea below about the "rookie season", excellent idea that I think has merit. Not sure if LSS is going to adjust the points.

[@DrizztFan23]

Yeah, 6 months and he hit 150% of the LL points needed.

[@LegendOfRoGamers]

I feel like they should reduce the given points. For some people it takes a while to get the cards because of either waiting for a good deal or transportation(for me it takes between 2-4 weeks for a card market order to arrive) and it really feels bad if you finally manage to get your deck together only for you to get to play it only a few times(especially if your only armory is once a week). A point reduction would also work with how they've transitioned to a weekly check of LL points

[@DMArmada]

I think they will

[@rayshell7168]

LSS has said they need to make gaining go again harder to do, and yet, Heavy Hitters hands out go again to its heroes like ancient AOL CDs. That’s why the heroes best suited to make use of those gifts are doing so well.

[@DMArmada]

I tend to disagree but I see where you're coming from

[@dumb_baby3012]

I think we'll Kayo slow way down now that PQ and RTN season are over. He'll definitely pick up some during Nationals season but we havent really seen him get points outside of the local tournaments. He's only won like 2 Battle Hardeneds and a PTI, no callings or pro tours like everyone said he was going to. He definitely gets good results but top players know how to beat him.

[@DMArmada]

That's my hope

[@andrewlopez9697]

So i have been trying to get my friend into FaB and his biggest concern was the LL way of rotation cuz his cards may still be usable but the way they play and how they are valued in that deck all change when u use a new hero and some people really like their hero and dont want to use anything else

[@Barf_FaB]

IMO Kayo was made good to LL the Mandible Claws. This way they can start to change Brute decks. Loss of this weapon will move us away from Blood Rush Bellows.

[@mindcrime2692]

I've seen some other games where a product has released and timing has made it so certain cards are banned on release. The way they've dealt with it is by saying that the product is legal without changes. LSS might have to do that, otherwise the armory deck might not be legal for long.

[@retrofraction]

I think the system is fine. If people want to jump on the decks that are the easiest to pilot in terms of consistency. It’s what the community chooses.

[@ultimaterare3146]

1st! Heading to my last Pro-Quest this Saturday.

[@DMArmada]

Good luck! Who are you playing?

[@ultimaterare3146]

@@DMArmada Either Prism or Boltyn. I’ll decide by Friday.

[@sting2291]

Hopefully MST has some heroes that can at lease slow his meteoric ascent through the living legend system!

[@Thomas-Cannon]

IMHO a major part of the issue with CC rotation is the fact that the LL format is not fun and balanced at the moment, so once a hero rotates, most players that don't switch to another hero in that class sell off their decks at a loss. If they aren't going to ban Starvo, knock his Int down to 3. He's still competitive with it, but not broken like he is now. Additionally, they need to remove the restricted list. I think best way to fix CC itself is to print new versions of old heroes within a few sets of them rotating, or at least a character with the same class and talent set, so the specialization cards and some talent cards are still usable. This would allow people can keep the decks they like after the hero LLs, then swap in the new hero without having to change too much of the deck.

[@DMArmada]

I actually think the living legend format is in the best spot it's ever been and starvo is far less prevalent than he was after their most recent changes

[@playtimetcg]

I think it's OK for some heroes to go faster into LL but I do think half way to LL in 3 months might be a bit faster than desireable. It's a tough spot to try to manage because Kayo doesn't feel broken, just well positioned.

[@DMArmada]

100% this.

[@aaronnash4682]

I think all new hero’s should have a “rookie season” which is the timespan between their release, and the next sets release. During that time span that hero receives 1/2 of total earned LL points. This would give time for hype to transition to the next set, and also time for people to learn how to counter new hero’s.

[@DMArmada]

That's an interesting idea

[@jonrandelldaclison9803]

This idea is interesting. Maybe all new heroes have a 6 months or 1 year time frame from when they are released where they only earn half points rather than full points?

[@tylerann93]

This is a good idea, but I worry that there will come a hero that NEEDS to speed run LL because they are ruining the Meta. I think Kayo is a great example of hero this works well with and Old Prism is a hero this would suck to have a free 6 months.

[@aaronnash4682]

@@tylerann93 yeah that makes sense, but i think that situation can be dodged by B&R’s, which Lss doesn’t seem to have an issue with. And the current design space is a lot more refined, so I don’t think we’ll see those vastly over powered heroes again, at least not any time soon

[@retrofraction]

I think this in context for Starvo/Chane, wouldn’t be great. Because it would effectively made them dominate the competitive scene much longer and require even more B&R runnings. Another way to simply let them cook without racking points would be to ban them from Competition for 6 months to a whole year. But that would kill the armory scene as no one would want to play against those heroes.

[@hanitschi]

Thanks for speedrunning the claw ban, this hits Lev and Rhinar pretty hard tbh. Flail support now!

[@DMArmada]

It'll certainly change things up for the Brute class!

[@SUNIKIGAMING]

I kind of like what it's about to do to Levia honestly.

[@ravenousbabble]

I've been a Kayo main for a while now, and I'm gonna be honest...they should ban something in his kit. Honestly, either Runner Runner or Beast Within. I wanna say Beast Within, but he's pretty much the only hero who uses Runner Runner, so I don't know. His momentum kind of defines him, so I'm not sure how detrimental banning Runner Runner would be. I want them to knock him down a peg without neutering him. This upcoming weekend will be interesting though, since he is getting the new chest piece and the new blue...and there's a Calling, lol. I'd expect around 100 points from this last week of Pro Quests.

[@Aegisworn]

I do think some of the concern about the kayo armory deck rotating too quickly is a little overstated. It won't be that difficult to convert a Kayo deck into a Rhinar deck. That said I do think the current points are coming in too fast for his performance level.

[@DMArmada]

That's a really good point!

[@clarkjansen2048]

Aside from the armory deck coming out, i think its OK that some heroes reach LL quickly. Especially if doing so fixes a problem (getting rid of Mandible claw prior to releasing Earth Brute). The Kayo armory deck having limited shelf life is maybe not ideal, but its also possible they predicted this and intentionally had that one release first. Plus, there are multiple armory decks coming, so one of them being LL soon isn't a big deal if the others are still playable

[@christianbergesen5895]

I'm pretty sure that LSS (or James White) have said that they are fine with more powerfull heroes rotating out after 7-8 months and most "avg" heroes leaving after 1,5 years. There was a big discussion about this when Starvo almost went LL from one season, they also adjusted the points from 4 to 3 prts already for this PQ season, so i think LSS have quite a good controll on this.

[@brixiu5]

I am a Kayo player and I think they could try to nerf him by banning a card or two. Cast Bones seems like the obvious target but not all decks even run that so. It's tough to say which card. Bare Fangs maybe? I don't think BRB can be banned as it would have a prohibitively massive effect on all the other brutes. I guess Beast Within is my only other guess.

[@gunternine1130]

Agile Windup is the biggest offender. At it's floor it is a discard to give go again next turn and +1 to an attack. At it's ceiling, it gives go again to claw, go again next turn and +1 attack. There's less than a foot of distance between the floor and ceiling of that card, and it's what allows Kayo to have consistent 15+ damage turns. Especially since you can pack 9 of them into the deck and not be punished for it.

[@brixiu5]

@@gunternine1130 Possibly, I think I come back to that potentially destroying any metashare Levia and Rhinar have as it has become quite important for those decks too.

[@DMArmada]

I don't think he's worthy of nerfing. I think it's good that he's good, but maybe other heroes need to be good into him to slow him down.

[@qyzxger790]

@@DMArmada even that would not mean slow at all if we look at Kassai for example. Also over 300 in this short amount of time. All this is just to fast...

[@gunternine1130]

@@DMArmada Respectfully, any hero that can consistently threaten 15-20 damage a turn, isn't healthy for an interactive experience.

[@slotholopolis2314]

LSS still sends out Ira Blitz decks as a beginner product despite her being banned in that format. I don't think they care about the shelf life of products. They're going to keep pushing them out regardless.

[@DMArmada]

The difference is that those Ira decks are free for anyone to ask for from an LGS and are only functional in a 30 card format, which Blitz isn't.

[@tobbsy3168]

Maybe the „easy“ Decks should just not be the defacto best decks.

[@silikdo6514]

For CC Kayo hvy hitter enabled him too much easy buff with less things you can throw against. Cast Bones 6x Might at max and agilty by instant discard agile windup, BB and Art Of war are just too much easy push with just a 9-10 Def hands with just one card to throw against him is like using a toothpick in a sword fight.

[@Vektor480]

I really think they should have taken the opportunity of the CC precon and made a decent deck for an underplayed hero. A CC deck for Olympia woould have been fantastic. A chance to give him more powerful tools out of a regular set, a simple deck plan for new players, and a safe buy from a hero with basically no LL points. By going for a successful hero, they run the risk of him just going LL shortly after and leading to a very short shelf-life. Not only this, but for a new player, unaware of the LL system, to buy a deck aimmed towards them and being told they can't play that is for sure gonna drive that player away.

[@Vektor480]

And right after I posted this they announced a CC Boltyn deck! Ha!

[@Cryonicity]

I think Kayo LL is intentional and its LSS secret way of telling us that Brute is in the next set after MST. Maybe that is the set for the Savage Lands. Thats why Armory decks are short printed/small allocations

[@Tanpopohimawari]

Or maybe they didnt expect the hero to be this good? What do you mean is intentional? They had bad testing in the past, not surprised some things still slip up, we've had a bunch of heros being really underpowered and others too consistent since out.

[@Cryonicity]

@@Tanpopohimawari they might want claws rotated to open up brute weapon design space

[@Tanpopohimawari]

@@Cryonicity then they'd ban them, not make a strong hero and wait for it to LL..

[@GoblinReserve]

Way too many points way too quick especially when the hero doesn’t feel broken like a Starvo.

[@Husker44g]

Wow, it's really all about how much better the Devs are doing designing this game. Maybe it's time for heroes to be set in tiers. After each season they could make tier adjustments based on wins. I guess the example for Kayo would be --After PT season Kayo is in the highest bracket so their LL point potential lowers? Just spit balling but I feel like it all depends on the health of the game and it's design space. I think the devs are hitting their stride (please make more wizards!!) so they may be able to hand out less LL points.

[@akslcsd]

I personally like the fact that dominant/popular heroes move out of the format faster. If the game will ever get to a point where it is so balanced that literally every hero has a ~50% chance against every other hero and no hero gets more than ~5-6 wins in a pie chart at the end of a competitive weekend, then nobody can really speedrun to LL. At the moment, for me, whenever there is a Kayo/Lexi deck in the meta, it is not very fun to attend competitive events, knowing that they will most likely win. I generally find myself waiting for the dominant hero to LL, hoping the afterwards I can show up at an event with literally no idea who can win. Sort of a "play what you enjoy" and you have the exact same chance to win big events as everyone else, rather than just "pick up the most competitive deck if you truly want to win", which is what I see most of the players in my community do.

[@discus4444]

lss is beeing stupid! They added to mych support to 1 character and now they have a problem with "hmm why is this hero speedrunning LL?" just don't give that much good cards to one hero!

[@FaB-Bear]

Part of the issue, IMHO, was running two seasons of qualifiers during a three month stretch. Things should have maybe been organized better. It has been two seasons of points into one meta

[@icalculi]

i thought kayo is LL? why is he still on the pro quest wins list?

[@patrickweiss5063]

Too many points for sure... they did that to both prism and dromai to get the out the door faster. Armory deck looking like an intro to LL for Kayo xD

[@DMArmada]

I disagree that they did this to purposefully rotate illusionists.

[@gunternine1130]

The fun thing about the Armory deck that is about to be released is that it also has a built in Blitz deck for when Kayo goes LL, and if Blitz isn't your thing, then you have an LL deck for when your shop has their 5th event of the month! #banagilewindup

[@DMArmada]

It would be really cool if they put an insert on a piece of cardstock that told players how to convert the CC deck into Blitz.

[@juergensmutek]

If I can´t play Kayo at Nats, I am screwed :D

[@DMArmada]

Oh, he'll be around for nationals season for sure.

[@Possu81]

Would be great to enjoy Kayo longer time in the gamd

[@PhilthyPenguin]

Kayo points are fine. the problem i have is that LSS talks about adding more variance into hero design. then they drop Kayo which was designed to be consistent with minimal variance. That being said, recent sets have a trend where they reign in the pervious set heroes. So i predict a slow down in points for Kayo. Also, ideally you should have the same number of heroes LL each set equal to the next set's number of heroes so you dont get an ever expanding stable of heroes for the devs to balance against.

[@DMArmada]

I would certainly not describe Kayo as less variance when we've watched players lose the game on the spot from a random discard multiple times at the high level competitive scene.

[@qyzxger790]

For me it's way to fast now.

[@jiffyb333]

Definitely feels awkward with Kayo dropping the new player deck that might only be valid for a year... Might actually hold off on picking it up and see how quickly he races towards LL and pick it up for cheap after he LLs. But the same time I want to support my LGS...

[@VeganCATS1]

better pick them up fast, by the time he LLs those will be long sold out

[@Palefox27]

I think we all knew he was going to speed run this. I said it during release with Cast bones as pushed as it is. He has almost no variance that brute was built around. There's a lot of good 5 power cards that are 5 power for balance reasons that he doesn't care about. I think he and Cast bones were a mistake.

[@AdventureCoGaming]

I think kayo might need a hit. I don’t think it does anything inherently unfair but it may be a bit too consistent in its damage output. Just in terms of living legend allocation I could see them touching it in some way

[@DMArmada]

I'm not sure it's worth going in and touching some of his cards. I said it before and I stand by it: I think it's good that he's good and I think other decks just need to be good into him. Maybe that means buffs for other heroes?

[@AdventureCoGaming]

@@DMArmada I appreciate the reply! Maybe it’s something that needs to be looked at as far as LL is concerned in general? Half points the first year? I’m not sure if that’s an answer. I just stop and think if he had won PTLA he’d be past the half way point already with a hero centered product coming out. I’ve supported LL up until this point but now I’m questioning if it’s viable long term.

[@DMArmada]

@@AdventureCoGaming yeah exactly, there's a darker timeline out there where he's at 600 already

[@benwhite6507]

"Should we change the LL points so Change/Starvo can stay in the format longer?" Fixed it for ya.

[@DMArmada]

If you think Kayo is equal to Chane and Starvo, I have some land in Antarctica to sell you and I'll give you a great deal.

[@benwhite6507]

Sure thing! But I'm only in if you'll secure the loan with this bridge I own as collateral. I've watched the video back through a few times (helping ya keep up your watch time), and I have extracted a few key points. Your thesis seems split. You ask the question, "Should we change the awarded LL points so that Kayo can last longer?" and buried inside of that, "A new, exciting, approachable hero should last longer before hitting LL." I wholeheartedly agree with you on the second half. I think asking the first half is a foolish endeavor. Asking if system changes should be implemented so a very specific hero can stay longer doesn't do the game any favors. Every time a new favorite comes around you'll need to re-debate the question. Chane, Starvo, Prism, Iyslander, and Oldhim all had incredibly devoted players. I'm sure a large number of them would LOVE to have had more time with their favorite hero. Revisions to the LL system should be made hero-agnostic. Your first raised concern is if the hero eats up too much of the meta share. Right after, you asked if the hero is consuming too many points in the meta. Those are two very different questions. For your first point, I don't think we have the data to answer that question. I like to use a measurement like "Conversion to Day 2." Assuming all decks were equally powered and piloted, you would expect a deck making up 15% of the submitted decks to be near 15% of the Day 2 decks. I'll see if I can illustrate the difference in your questions with the following example. Mono-Red Burn was a very popular deck for MTG tournaments. It was essentially a coin toss if you won your game, but inevitably a player or 3 on Burn would end up making it to top 64 at events, and every once in a while, even a top 8. What was the conversion from Day 1 though? Absolutely abysmal. If I remember correctly, you had a less than 5% chance to go to Day 2 when just looking at the numbers. It had a large meta-share of players (cheap deck, easy to pilot), but it frequently did not perform well. Once upon a time, there was another deck called KCI. This deck was not cheap, it was not easy to pilot. It consistently performed very, very well. It had a small meta-share and over-represented itself in Day 2 conversions. As you have stated, Kayo is a relatively easy deck to pilot, right; this isn't Prism or the Kano mirror? He is also converting at a very high rate; he has picked up 400 LL points in 2 months. That isn't solely a function of many people playing him. Those players are also winning. If he stays on pace, which, admittedly, I find unlikely, he will LL in 3 month's time. The follow-up question you posited, "Does Living Legend allow heroes to exist at high levels of design," does require clarification. "What is high-level design?" The answer follows shortly, the heroes are fun to play and cool to play. Here is an easy answer to the original question. Yes. The LL system allows cool, fun heroes to exist and be played. We know from James White that the LL system is designed to evolve the meta-game over time. How long should a hero last before hitting LL? That question (your follow-up question) is also answered by the very same man, 15-20 months for high-performance heroes. If LSS wants Kayo to last anywhere near that long, one of two things will need to occur. The most obvious option is clearly a ban. It is possible for Kayo to LL before the next ban announcement in July. I don't believe LSS will exercise this option given that we just had a Brute ban last month. The other option is that the metashare spreads between other heroes. This might very well occur thanks to Mistveil and save Kayo's bacon. In the early days Dash picked up a huge number of LL points and was a terrifying force. As more heroes were introduced to the roster her points acquisition slowed. She has now been in the game far beyond the 15-20 month goal of the system. The explosion of FaB's popularity is partially a culprit in Kayo's point explosion. A few years ago LSS had planned on having 1,000 points available in a season. Heavy Hitter's season has had approximately 2,750 awarded. We also went from 16 heroes to approximately 24, it depends on if you are counting before or after Dromai LL'ed. The roster increased by 50%, but the points by nearly 200%. Having more events will do that. Crazy, I know. Let's check some recent tournament win numbers for the big guy. RTN Week 1: 10%, RTN Week 2: 10%, RTN Week 3: 13%, RTN Week 4: 14%, Proquest Week 1: 15%, Proquest Week 2: 12%, Proquest Week 3: 18%. It would seem that he is only picking up momentum as the deck becomes more solved even when he is widely accepted as one of the format's 'heroes to beat.' It would not shock me in the slightest to see him settle at 15%. LSS's unit of measurement for the 16 hero roster was a hero to ascend to LL in 12 months by capturing 33% of the year's points. A perfect win% split with 16 heroes would be 6.25%/hero. They would need to perform at just over 525% of their split to achieve that. In the Heavy Hitter season of ~24 heroes, each hero's win% split is 4 1/6th% or 4.167%. The same degree of overachievement would be a win rate of 22%. I assume that the point pool for the following 2 seasons this year will remain ~3,000 as this season has. An easy solution for just Kayo's position is to move the LL requirement up to 3,000 points. Then Kayo would need to capture exactly 200 points per month to hit LL on the hopeful pace of 15 months. Since that pace matches one metric, the timeline goal, but does not match the other metric, current win%, I think the system is not currently balanced to maintain equilibrium. The current system will rotate heroes faster (because they would be on pace to LL at a lower than expected win%), which might be to make room for a pile of new heroes. I'm certain there is more and better math that could be applied, but I have already spent a few hours on this and I think it establishes the point, moving the goalpost for individual heroes is incorrect, and provides some rough insights on the fact that Kayo is just strong, so he naturally should not last as long as the other more "fair" heroes in the roster. In my opinion, Kayo is a fast-mana hero, which we all know is totally fair and balanced in other games. He gets the benefits of running on-rate cards as 6's both on and off the combat chain. The off the combat chain buff is stated explicitly, but the ability to generate a Might token means that your attacks are also on rate. On top of that, your cards pitch for way more resources. As a Kayo, I get 50% more resources on a card running a yellow over a red. What do I miss out on? Popping illusions on some of my cards and Romping Club? That is a pretty great trade-off. He absolutely occupies an interesting design space. I think it was a risk (like Bright Lights), and LSS missed the mark just a bit. That noticeable advantage prodivded to Kayo in a low variance game like FaB can absolutely be leveraged.

[@chibiraptor]

Living legend is a "rotation" system that means players get more or less time with their favorite decks based on how successful a hero is, not based on how fun they are or whether they have a good effect on the meta. Its just a system that encourages bad feels when your favorite deck rotates way faster than you couldve predicted, and doesnt reduce the new player card pool investment the way an actual rotation would. If you bought into lexi after dynasty assuming she'd be around for a while, sorry. If you bought into brute because you like kayo but dont like the other two, better hope something else you like comes out soon.

[@JDeodato]

Uh nice to see that LSS heard you and nerfed Prism by banning those cards you suggest/thought about, if not we would be seeing a total domination from her in these last 2 weeks of Pro Quest! But ofc "Kayo doing Kayo things" is still nice and totally fine.

[@DMArmada]

It's interesting that you mention I called for bans when I specifically didn't call for bans, but okay

[@JDeodato]

@@DMArmada you are an important voice in the community and I feel in these situations you should be way more positive and not jump the bandwagon of asking/suggesting bans with 1 week of a new meta. You suggested a ban on ALS loop, refering specifically the angel. And exactly for what? It's too soon on the meta, we don't even know if Prism will be broken or not. Maybe it will and it should be nerfed, but we don't know yet and pre-bans is not a fun thing. Instead next time, you could offer advices on how to deal with "maybe-but-not-sure-yet-problematic" heroes.

[@DMArmada]

@@JDeodato I most certainly did not suggest that they ban ALS. I suggested that they ban nothing and instead players should sideboard. I then said that I indeed sideboarded for my own ProQuest. I followed that up by saying that if they do choose to ban something, I'd rather them move the Angel out than ALS.