The Best Old School Class for Dungeon Crawls

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[@georgelaiacona111]

My first character, back in 1981, in a homebrewed OD&D game, was a Dwarf Cleric. There were 7 of us Dwarves dungeon crawling in that game: clerics, fighters, and a thief. We did fairly well, except we lacked magic beyond our clerical abilities, so we hired an NPC wizard. Human Female, of course. Dwarves are still a favourite of mine to play.

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice

[@SimonAshworthWood]

Snow White reference? 😁

[@georgelaiacona111]

@@SimonAshworthWood Affirmative. We named her Snew White, to avoid any confusion or copyright infringement.

[@SusCalvin]

@@georgelaiacona111 That's a proper heroic name.

[@GodlessRose]

About armor, I think it's actually realistic that it doesn't penalize surprise rolls. Someone who is used to wearing plate can be surprisingly quiet in it. The key is to move your arms and legs in a certain way so the plates don't clatter against each other. It limits your speed and ability to move your arms, though. Metatron did a great video called "Can You Be Stealthy In Armour?" where he demonstrates this. Also, there are ways to silence armor, so you won't make much noise even when moving normally. Since old school D&D is so much about stealth, I would imagine any adventurer would do this. With plate, this would involve some combination of lacquering the plates, wrapping them in leather or cloth, putting padding between them, or tying down the free-moving parts. Mail could be sewn between two layers of lightly-padded cloth. This was sometimes called jazerant. And there was an armor similar to scale armor, but with the scales sewn between two layers. This was sometimes called a jack of plate(s). I don't know much about them, but I'd wager they were quieter than naked mail or scale armor.

[@BanditsKeep]

Very true

[@glacier68]

Yep. Dwarves are among my favorite old school classes as well. And yes, it doesn't take players long to figure out to send the dwarf ahead of the torchlight

[@BanditsKeep]

I think they even do it in the example of play - I’ll have to look agai

[@philnagle9024]

Definitely knowledgeable about the oldest of Dwarves. I'm a big fan of AD&D Dwarves myself!

[@BanditsKeep]

They are pretty awesome IMO

[@thomaswebb2584]

I just made a NPC Dwarf for my characters to meet at The Keep. +1 Plate Armor, which, since it's magical, I allow to not restrict movement and to be nearly silent, like all magic armor. Not that normal plate has to be noisy, as there are many types that qualify in history. Thank once again for your insight!

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool!

[@andrewhaldenby4949]

Great video Daniel ty. Your comments on the thief made me think of the “burglar” in the Hobbit, of course Bilbo. Brought along for very specific sneaking and hiding skills

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes!

[@TheEricthefruitbat]

Nice! My second favourite character was a Dwarf. (My favourite was a human AD&D ranger - loved that class).

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome! Rangers are great too

[@jacobvalenzuela2546]

The sponsor looked pretty cool. I actually listened instead of fast forwarding

[@BanditsKeep]

I agree, looks like a super fun game

[@gommechops]

It is a bit of a shock to realise our group got it so wrong all those years ago. I quite liked playing a thief and often got shoved to the front. I knew something didn't make sense, all nicely lit up with torches like a Monster's Buffet. Funny how you cant see past assumptions sometimes. I cant believe my friends and I got it so wrong, although maybe they did know and were trying to get rid of me haha.

[@BanditsKeep]

😂 oh, I’ve also been sent to the front as the thief - live and learn… or die and learn in my case.

[@gommechops]

@@BanditsKeep it is a great lesson and doesn't this bring so much to the Dwarf? Lots of implied background in their abilities. A lot to mull over here.

[@AuthoritativeNewsNetwork]

An excellent break down, I'll have to go back and watch the other videos in this 'series'. 👍

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@mookiewilson4166]

Any chance of a link? Not sure which videos you mean?

[@mookiewilson4166]

Lol, nevermind, they just flashed onscreen.

[@bensdecoypoondummy1189]

have the best beards - Dwarves - check!

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@SimonAshworthWood]

Extra good at fighting cos they’re angry at being called “fat”? Check!

[@joshmccloskey570]

A much needed vid for my favorite race and why I love them. Barük Kazad! Kazad ai mênu!

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes!

[@hoboogre8023]

This was a very good take on the Dwarf. I even use Dwarves in my game as a Scout sub-class with mines and dungeons as their "theater". Your hints at renaming the Dwarf Detect ability to Detect Room Traps and making theThief's skill more about Finding Chest/Door traps. Insightful stuff

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You! It’s actually spelled out like that in Moldvay basic so I can’t take full credit (and OD&D as well)

[@SimonAshworthWood]

… and if the dwarf scouts encounter any monsters that the party can’t handle, then the rest of the party can flee, while the dwarves (and halflings) are quite slow so the monsters will catch them first and become preoccupied with eating them or whatever, and the rest of the party will survive. Perfect! 😈

[@BanditsKeep]

True of any scout - it takes a brave player 🏃🏻

[@SimonAshworthWood]

@@BanditsKeepyeah, but the taller races can run away from monsters faster than the shorter ones. 😈 Even a human thief scout can catch up to the short adventurers in the main party and pass them by to let the monsters catch them. 😈

[@BanditsKeep]

@@SimonAshworthWood not in any game I run 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@Arnsteel634]

They were very magic resistant with very good saves too

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes!

[@christophseel8757]

I still love your relaxed videos always watching them before sleep 😊

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks!

[@deathkorpscommissar1407]

Dwarves? i love dwarves. on top of being my favourite fantasy race, they have fun abilities and such.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure!

[@SusCalvin]

One of my friends likes dwarfs for their hp and saves. And in Lamentations and a few other variants, dwarfs can carry heavier loads like heavier armour. My friend doesn't mind that a dwarf has less or no attack bonus as a fighter does, it's all about taking and surviving hits. When the opposition has to make their way past a dwarf or two, the rest of the crew can do other sorts of shenanigans.

[@BanditsKeep]

Good points!

[@marvinanderson5819]

Videos like this is like food for the soul to some of us!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks!

[@nobody342]

So I am a 1st edition Ad&d player, actually like most all who played back in the days, we played sort of a homebrew of Ad&d which has some elements of Basic in it but when 2nd edition came out, we picked and chose what we added from it, . ( Homebrewed ) Ad&D is actually a better system. No Sneeking Silently down the Halls wearing Platemail!!!! it doesnt pass the smell test, and really you should not be allowing it! That being said, a Dwarf (in Ad&D) is a excellent choice for use as you described. Doing such, your dwarf would likely be a fighter/theif, and would behave very similarly. put him in the lighter armors so he can actually sneek if he wants. In most of my parties I have been in, that role has often been taken by the Halfling ( fighter/theif) who sacrifices a little of his trap type skills for better stealth type skills. they both have the better saves, though ultimately in a dungeon crawl, the Dwarf is a slightly better pick, except for one thing! Dwarfs, well they are greedy, they are more likely to pilfer from the party, if played like a proper dwarf, so while "technically they are better, do you really want a greedy dwarf up front by himself? Oh, an here is the deal, even you know that its not logical to have someone be just as sneaky wearing platemail of the other metal armors, and AD&D fixed that, along with many other aspects, and it easy enough to just homebrew your initiative system, as that is what everyone did anyways ( one of the biggest complaints by those who complained about AD&D, oh and the level caps, every one complained about that, then 2nd ed. came out and started ruining the game balance!.

[@BanditsKeep]

I’m not sure you can’t sneak in armor, but if that type of thing works for your group, awesome. Also “dwarves are greedy” is not how we ever played, so different table culture definitely determines what is “best” for sure.

[@krinkrin5982]

It mentions right there in the text that Dwarves have infravision, which is heat-based. This is why you can't read with it. On the flipside, you should be able to instantly detect things like handprints and warm-blooded creatures, basically with no range limit.

[@BanditsKeep]

I would say they place a range limit for game reasons

[@ForeverYoungKickboxer]

Comment for the algorithm, great stuff as always

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks!

[@sw33n3yto00]

Glad to see dwarves get some attention.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed, they are a very good option, not just a bearded fighter

[@theaveragejoe8779]

Long live the Dwarves!

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes!

[@devinthunderstrike]

BECMI goes to 36th level

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed it does - and adds stuff for demi-humans who reach the level cap. Never cared for it myself TBH

[@nosaurian]

did you know that dwarves were actually created IN a dungeon about 15,000 years ago? it was dark. there wasn't even a Sun yet, and the stars were but few, and faint. they were given runes. maybe they can read in the dark...

[@nosaurian]

No extant text seems to imply they were also given candles, at this time

[@BanditsKeep]

Maybe!

[@nosaurian]

@@BanditsKeep Now that I think of it runes are carved, so they're like braille, you can read them by tact. No, they can't read a book when there's No light. but they're still the best dungeon crawlers. hey what about elves and orcs?

[@BanditsKeep]

@@nosaurian elves are great secret door finders - orcs as PCs I do not believe have either the trap or secret door bonus in any games I’ve played - but orcs tend to be great mercenaries and henchman in my games. They tend toward neutral so whoever has the gold gets their swords!

[@SusCalvin]

@@BanditsKeep Hiring dungeon dwellers is the sort of thing hobos often try to do. Some might be too chaotic to hire, I think gnolls immediately turn on their employers if it looks like the gnolls have a chance. Sometimes they value something other than cash, then you find it out and give them that. We found that tributes of food were much more valuable deep down and pigs was cheap for our expedition. Our greatest moment was to ally with an entire tribe of barbarian warriors in a starter dungeon. The townies had been nothing but snooty to our danish explorers, and taking the town was a much greater treasure than a simple reward for turning in the barbarians.

[@Obsiduction]

Great video ! The question now is : why play a fighter when you can play a dwarf? In rules-as-written B/X, they only have few advantages on dwarves. Slightly quicker XP advancement and higher level cap ? Most campaigns don't go high level enough to make this matter really. I sometimes heard people say that fighters have access to better magic weapons but only two-handed magical swords cannot be used by dwarves (and honestly the fact that they makes you act last in combat make them really less powerful than longswords). Do you have any ideas why would someone play a human fighter rather than a dwarf (or a halfling, which can be really powerful in combat even if they have lower HD) ? Or any rules that you play with in order to make them more interesting to players ?

[@BanditsKeep]

As written you’d play a dwarf vs a fighter unless you cannot qualify IMO. In one BX campaign I gave all the human fighters a set of plate and shield at no cost - This made them generally more survivable at level 1 but past an adventure or two, the dwarves still came out on top. I think in a campaign capped at level 14 (BX) you will only get human fighters if you have players that just want to play a human fighter.

[@Obsiduction]

@@BanditsKeep yeah this what i thought too. I never played B/X but i think that i will give them combat talents as described in the OSE zine Carcass Crawler in order to make them a bit more versatile in combat

[@someguy403]

In my home rules for B/X I give fighters an extra attack against 1HD creatures or less each time they level up which would allow them to be great at taking on hordes of low tier/minion type monsters since dwarves would still only have the one attack.

[@talon12020]

When you spell it all out like this it seems obvious so why did so many players think the Thief should be the scout?

[@BanditsKeep]

I think the Players who likes thieves did it - I know I did when I first started playing

[@MrRourk]

Saurig from Arduin

[@BanditsKeep]

🤔

[@MrRourk]

@@BanditsKeep you should try the Ruins of Arduin OSR Game. Compare it to OD&D.

[@douglasknupp4574]

You content is good, but your voice tone makes me sleepy...

[@BanditsKeep]

Perhaps a cup of coffee?