The biggest lore mistake in the Fallout show

[@aaron71]

Maximus said to Lucy that “the bombs dropped 12 years ago”. This confuses her because The Great War was over 200 years ago till he elaborates to say he's talking about Shady Sands. That would put the bomb falling on Shady around 2284 which would be 3 years or so AFTER New Vegas.

[@Tangerator]

Dude thank you. It says fall of shady sands then points towards a mushroom cloud like that was the event that happened after. Everyone's so quick to throw up arms about something as small as this

[@alexbain87]

@@Tangerator”or so”

[@sponkold]

He doesn't say that though. He says "The bombs fell when I was a kid." Episode 5, 17 minutes in you can hear it for yourself.

[@aaron71]

@@sponkold Yes, when he was 8; and he's 20 in the show. 12 years ago.

[@sponkold]

@@aaron71 It is never stated how either how old he is in the year 2296, or how old he was when shady sands was nuked. Where are you getting these numbers from?

[@iamawesome-td5my]

season 2 opens with someone erasing the chalk board 2277 and putting the 2282 while smacking a child's knuckles with a yard stick.

[@someonelikejaden]

that’s what i was thinking too, someone got the date incorrect and it’ll be changed in the next season if they pan over the chalkboard again

[@EdgeO419]

does it matter, everything the courier did was for fuck all nothing thanks to this canon show. We erased NV canon for more BOS fanfiction... yay.

[@maniestranger4329]

​@@EdgeO419the brotherhood of steel are dumb ass's in this show I genuinely think that some random survivers found the brotherhood bunker destroyed by the currier and took the armors and weapons and said we are the brotherhood of steel now 😂

[@Duck_Man4]

That would be funny

[@jackcausey1449]

@@maniestranger4329 honestly the "brotherhood of steel" in the tv show is a joke compared to the brotherhood in the games the ncr will return and the prydwen as well as the brotherhood that went west will be destroyed as they are surrounded by enemies and are led by a incompetent dictatior

[@ZreaperOfficial]

NCR population = 700,000 Shady Sands population = 35,000 The NCR should still be fine

[@RaymondKwok0]

yeah， but when you think about that 35000 people is the core of NCR

[@rainhartolidan9834]

​@@RaymondKwok0 I agree, that 35,000 where the people that kept running the entirety of the NCR.

[@Legacyartist]

@@RaymondKwok0 That would be like saying the 671,800 in DC is the core of the US. Yeah the "federal" level of the NCR would have been crippled but it still has the lower regional levels to fall upwards and fill the void. The NCR shouldn't be as visibly destroyed as it seems to be. The NCR military especially should still have a strong presence.

[@gumballfan1232]

@@Legacyartist Well in New Vegas, we learn that the cities and towns under NCR didn't really enjoyed being under NCR control. So maybe when Shady Sands was destroyed, these cities and towns decided to use this as their best chance to finally break off from the NCR grip. As for the military, I think any remaining high ranking NCR officers would attempt to restore order but New Vegas also states that while the military is big, it was to spread out. NCR forces would try to put down these cities/towns, but being to thinned out means poor logistics with difficulty to communicate with other NCR units to get reinforcements, many of these operations would have failed. At this point, many NCR soldiers would desert back to their homes until eventually the NCR military is officially disolves. P.S. When we see the 2077 as the fall of NCR, it could mean the start of the fall since in the NCR-Legion War, the NCR lost massive amount of forces in both the Mojave campaign and the Divide. Also the war weakend an already declining economy for the NCR. And if the House or Independent endings are canon, this would make these even worse for the NCR. So I think the destruction of Shady Sands (which would take place somewhere between 2285-2287) was just the final nail in the coffin for the NCR.

[@barahng]

Yeah, but the nuke was apparently so powerful that the blast from Shady Sands apparently stretched all the way to the coast and destroyed the entirety of The State of Los Angeles/The Boneyard. 😂

[@Pokellectibles94]

Update: todd howard confirmed the "fall of shady sands" is not referring to the nuke. Shady sands was nuked after 2281 and he reiterated that all canon game events including new vegas are not being retconned

[@anvos658]

That still doesn't make things much better, given that makes the fall of the NCR highly unlikely, given if the Legion won her story would end with immediate enslavement by a roving party of Legion soldiers, and the other 3 ends the Mojave is in the hands of somebody who has a vested interest in helping stabilize the NCR.

[@Berry-y8d]

Todd the person who can’t admit to a mistake says people don’t know how to read time lines when in reality 2277 date still cannot be a decline in the capital it just can’t. Kimble was re elected, the city was still seen as good in new Vegas, and the bare minimum year would be 2280 because those effects wouldn’t be felt by new Vegas. It doesn’t matter what Todd confirms it’s a mistake right because he can’t admit he’s wrong when instead you should have people who are experts in the lore help set up the timeline to avoid these mistakes. Todd is a clown and he didn’t make new Vegas so he doesn’t know anything to be fair. Todd biggest thing is he doesn’t want to look stupid and is to arrogant to admit he’s wrong because he doesn’t want to look stupid. That’s Todd’s biggest flaw as a person unfortunately and once you figure that out you see through all his lies and realize he just don’t want to look stupid

[@Berry-y8d]

They can either say the truth that it was a mistake or they did just retcon new Vegas. That’s it Todd needs to admit it instead of this god complex which is why I generally can’t wait for him not to be involved in the series ever again he’s awful

[@uwotm8634]

​@@anvos658Based on the ending of the show it seems canon ending for NV is Mr House taking over, so the NCR and the other factions would basically be defeated

[@anvos658]

@@uwotm8634 The thing your missing is both the Mr. House and Yes Man endings are ones where they need the NCR stable to feed New Vegas resources, thus they'd have a vested interest in helping the NCR recover. For House himself it would merely be a matter of setting up some signal relays to send some Securitrons to help.

[@Carblesnarky]

One other thing, honestly the ghoul serum is a must bigger deal than maybe getting one date on a chalkboard wrong. Ghouls having to take something to avoid going feral is nowhere in the games that I know of and would be a huge retcon.

[@lordmordic8437]

I Will just assume that the medicine is simply RadAway. It would make a lot more of sense because RadAway reduces radiation, which is what causes ghouls to become feral

[@FieldAgent-D]

Oh no? But there were mentions in 4 of drugs that could delay the inevitable

[@Smokedcandy2]

I think that it’s not a complete retcon, I have no information so this is all head cannon but I think It keeps them sane longer. So a ghoul can live 200 years but they will eventually go insane and the serum is helping to extend that time

[@MartinWoad]

It's not said every ghoul is like that either.

[@crusadertank970]

@@Smokedcandy2 I also like the idea that they can just simply be wrong. That they think that they need it but don't. Almost like a placebo drug.

[@enderpony80]

It’s entirely possible the date was wrong on the part of the writers and they fucked up the date by accident. Nothing a post release patch can’t fix as is tradition for bethesda

[@Finger112]

Its also possible that Vault 4 made the date up out of thin air possibly.

[@Dontbesosoft]

"Bethesda never changes"

[@lunarliv4804]

Honestly if they CGI'd the date to be something else that would be VERY funny to me.

[@pixel6698]

​@@Finger112That would still just be the writers covering their asses though, because it makes zero narrative sense for them to show a made up date for a few seconds if it'll just be scrapped anyway.

[@ZeallustImmortal]

Its also possible that the fall of Shady Sands started when the majority of its military went off to fight a pointless war. But that would take 2 seconds of thinking and the haters cant do that.

[@br7693t]

We can also speculte on what Maximus experienced. When he climbed out of that refrigerator, he looks to be about 7-8 years old. He talked about first-hand experience. If we assume he's around Lucy's age, then subtracting back from 19 the date of the attack is 2284-85.

[@RyanSaotome]

Yeah, this is an easy answer I'm surprised a lot of people aren't getting. Maximus is a trainee whos probably in his early 20s. The attack absolutely lines up AFTER New Vegas.

[@SetArk]

Which would be a a "mistake" of the producers to not put that on the Board under the explosion, or as some folks said above, it's so recent, that folks on the vault don't even need a reminder of the date. Almost like everyone in the US know what it means to say 9/11 Or kind of worldwide right now 7/10

[@Chase-jc7rx]

This really needs to be pinned

[@RyanSaotome]

@@SetArk I think it was done vague intentionally. It gets people talking, and makes people want to watch S2 to figure out exactly what happened. These kinds of shows don't always spell everything out to the viewer right away.

[@mandala314]

​@@RyanSaotomeagreed, for a season 2, they needed to leave people guessing. I'm no Todd fangirl but I loved this season!! The easter eggs are amazing

[@djinferno975]

One thing you might of missed or forgotten is the sign for shady sands states “ first capital of the NCR” indicating that it was moved prior to it being nuked. It’s very possible that shady sands economically or otherwise started to fall apart in the year 2277 due to the capital being moved to another city or more likely the war the NCR was waging in Nevada and it’s clearly stated multiple times in new Vegas that the first battle of Hoover dam was extremely costly to the NCR and that took place in 2277. So according to the sign it’s not the capital of the NCR it was only the first one and was moved before the bomb went off and shredded the sign and city.

[@LoganArnold18]

Yeah but if the first capital and one of the biggest cities had been nuked 4 years prior to the events of FNV maybe somebody would have mentioned it in that game? Kimball would have referenced it in his speech perhaps? The fact that this happened before FNV is still a massive oversight.

[@Omgitsjoshers123]

@@LoganArnold18it didn’t? Based on the age of Maximus it would be more likely the nuke happened 2284/85. The fall of shady sands could be a marker for the beginning of the end

[@RafaelG92]

It all was a dream by maxum

[@benimou2349]

@@LoganArnold18 theres literally an arrow between "fall of shady sands" and the nuke

[@blackflagsnroses6013]

@@LoganArnold18the arrow to the nuke shows it happened after the fall. The republic was beginning to collapse from within before Shady Sands was nuked. So while the Republic was having troubles before New Vegas, which was hinted at in the game, the nuking officially happened after NV around the 80s

[@TheBML2]

One thing that irks me is where is the NCR? You’re telling me the abandoned the boneyard when it’s the biggest city they have?

[@CaptainBardiel]

Sac-Town

[@SuperCasperman]

Vegas literally says their stretch thin

[@AirSnipers96]

@@SuperCaspermanYes they are stretched thin as a military and a bureaucracy but that doesn’t mean they’d abandon cities. They’re stretched thin because they have so much territory to defend.

[@cjtrules1]

Where would the NCR be based after Shady Sands? Also, the BoS came in right after it was destroyed so why would they want to stay around an area they can't control anymore? As a previous comment said, the military is stretched thin being in Vegas so cut the losses and move to another NCR controlled city

[@1Ashram]

@@AirSnipers96The Cities simply abandoned them, considering that most places got bullied into the NCR, it would not surprise me at all, if, after the capital is bombed, many cities simply declared independence from the NCR because they could. And in a time of chaos like this, with military power stretched thin already, included Military locked in the Mojave conflict, pretty sure, many places back home broke off from the NCR.

[@TomislavMance]

In episode 5 there is sign that says that Shady Sands was the first capital of the ncr so for me it means that eventually some other town got declared capital of the ncr

[@Musebore]

This alone is a retcon

[@monkeyguy7551]

I just hope that writers don't become crazy and wipe the ncr completely, instead I would prefer to see ncr still being there, although a bit smaller.

[@blackwaltz3135]

@@monkeyguy7551 guys should we tell him??

[@white-noisemaker9554]

@@Musebore Given that the events are implied to happen AFTER the events of NV and 4, that's NOT a retcon, it's continuing the story. Quit claiming this is a retcon.

[@monkeyguy7551]

@@blackwaltz3135 What, they decided to wipe it out completely?

[@Patadude100]

"Why wouldn't they try to reclaim Shady Sands?" Because it's a 300 foot deep crater.

[@Waltuh22232]

It’s way more likely it’s an oversight of the people who wrote the script for the show

[@pedronoronha8270]

@@Waltuh22232 man they CLEARLY paid attention to the lore, they prob just changed some of the dates, made some events happen early in the timeline, they already stated that new vegas IS cannon, its not that deep lmao

[@DarksideGmss0513]

​​@@thelvadam5113 and obsidian can't make as good a game as interplay did so what's your point?

[@UNSCPILOT]

Laughing in Megaton, literally

[@SetArk]

This xD

[@JoezillCraft]

I believe the listed date, "the fall" is the date lucy and her mother arrived. They lived there for a few years, their dad found them, and then blew it up.

[@joelm33]

Then how did it fall when they arrived?

[@jamiesmith2724]

@@joelm33it was already crumbling from the inside. Lucy’s mom had also left him and was in a relationship with Moldaver.

[@mercutiolives2883]

Why would you put a date on that minor event but not the atomic explosion?

[@ericjohnson2024]

@@jamiesmith2724 Maldaver shows up in episode 1 posing as the Overseer of Vault 32. This is the same woman who was shacking up with Lucy's mom in Shady Sands. Why didn't Hank recognize her right away?

[@germainiumge19]

Lmao in new Vegas dlc there's a mission where you the protagonist given the option to nuke shady sands or Caesars legion so there's that

[@jakespacepiratee3740]

NCR in 2281: “We won’t go quietly into the night. The Legion can count on it.” NCR in 2296: “We went quietly into the night. The Enclave and/or Brotherhood can count on it.”

[@wikikarpiq2591]

Yeah, spoiler alert: it was Vault-Tec

[@Cheeeseyboi]

Patrolling the mojave.......oh shit it actually happened

[@hrammsteiner]

​@@CheeeseyboiNuke winter with no patrolmen

[@KrystalklearEntertainment]

They powered the whole city grid. How do any of us know that the people at the observatory were the only ones left of the NCR

[@jakespacepiratee3740]

@@KrystalklearEntertainment nah that was definitely the last of the NCR. They had none of their proper uniforms, they had very few Rangers, they had no power armor troopers, and they had no Virtibirds. Griffith Observatory would definitely be defended with those things if they had them. They didn’t because they dead as hell.

[@asuspiciouswatamelonthatdi9236]

NCR probably isnt gone. Shady Sands was only the capital, and the board doesnt say the fall pf the NCR, only the fall of Shady Sands. The NCR probably moved their capital to a different place now.

[@JahLiveGaming]

im saying this " lore mistake " is a bit of a stretch . this goes based on the idea of the NCR being stuck with shady sands being the capital

[@MrDemonKitty666]

Also did everyone forget the sign said "First capital of the New California Republic"?????

[@starrysock]

It's moreso that the NCR still hasn't really tried to move back into the surrounding area at all, and that the only "remnants" we do see really don't look like they're in the best shape. I don't think the NCR are *gone* per se, but they're clearly struggling. It makes me wonder if shady sands wasnt the only city to be nuked, since nuking a declining city doesn't make as much sense as a new capital

[@originalulix]

Then why is Moldaver or whatever her name is not coordinating with the rest of the NCR? She is implied to be the NCR leader, isn't she?

[@NerosCinema]

@@JahLiveGaming That's my thing. People are acting like Shady Sands is the end all, be all, of the NCR. Most references in game are to "California", not Shady Sands specifically. References to Shady Sands seem to be past tense as well, even the ones in this video

[@DontLook2265]

A few things I feel you’ve missed: -The Shady Sands billboard said the NCR’s “First” capital. Meaning that another city like San Francisco, Vault City, New Reno, or even the Hub serves as the NCR’s new capital. I feel it’s the Hub since it’s a huge economic powerhouse, plus Kimball is said to have done work in the Hub as well. -I think the characters are about 19-20 at the earliest. Mainly due to Maximus’ demeanor in the show. When he steps into power armor, he acts just like a teenager when he steps into a car for the first time. If he’s 19-20 by the show in 2296, he’d have been born in 2276-2277. Meaning of Shady Sands was destroyed in 2277, he’d be a baby still. Lucy too. I think the chalkboard was purely a misunderstanding from the fans and it was just poorly explained. I feel the NCR is still out there, just battered and reallocating their resources in another region, leaving the Brotherhood to take over the Shady Sands/Los Angeles region

[@zerocool.666]

the actor is 35 maximus and lucy are mid 20s

[@Legacyartist]

I agree with your whole chalkboard is misleading statement. Falls and is blown up are not necessarily the same. However it and the billboard are still a retcon since New Vegas establishes Shady Sands is the capital and is most certainly not fallen in any sort of definition of the term. In edition trying to guess a characters age is pointless given how an actors age and a characters age often don't match. There's a reason why the Steve Buscemi line is both funny and true. I'm with Oxhorn this is an odd choice and looks bad wither intentional or accidental. Personally I think it was an accident on the production side maybe to make a story beat fit with what Bethesda wants to do in Fallout 5.

[@DontLook2265]

@@Legacyartist True, but I’m willing to forgive that they put Shady Sands closer to LA. It’s more of the timeline that I’m concerned with. I agree trying to guess a character’s age is pointless, but going into that territory and considering the timeline for explaining Shady Sands’ destruction, you also gotta remember some characters in the Fallout universe look way older than what they actually are. Arthur Maxson is a prime example. He’s supposed to be 19 by Fallout 4 and looks like a 30 year old man who’s seen things, lol. I know that’s probably a big stretch, but that’s just me trying to find some example/explanation. Maximus was also pretty immature at some points and is aspiring to be a Squire, which indicates youth since many young BoS members enter into that rank. But again, it’s just pure speculation until Season 2 gives official confirmation. But regardless, I still believe the NCR is out there somewhere licking their wounds over losing Shady Sands and I’m looking forward to seeing how they explain their absence in the first season!

[@Legacyartist]

@@DontLook2265 The timeline in my opinion has been retconned in some way do to the show but because they say Shady Sands has fallen and not the NCR has fallen I'm hopeful the NCR is still a strong presence. My theory is the billboard is just a memorial placed after it was nuked to honor the first capital. As far as what fallen means it might just be the equivalent of Vader killed your father. As in it's true from a certain point of view just not one that any one with cognitive thought would agree with.

[@gumballfan1232]

I think when we see the 2077 as the fall of NCR, it could mean the start of the fall since in the NCR-Legion War, the NCR lost massive amount of forces in both the Mojave campaign and the Divide. Also the war weakend an already declining economy for the NCR. And if the House or Independent endings are canon, this would make these even worse for the NCR. Also to note, in New Vegas, we learn that the cities and towns under NCR didn't really enjoyed being under NCR control. So maybe when Shady Sands was destroyed, these cities/towns decided to use this as their best chance to finally break off from the NCR grip. As for the military, I think any remaining high ranking NCR officers would attempt to restore order but while the military is big, it was to spread out. NCR forces would try to put down these cities/towns, but being to thinned out means poor logistics to get supplies, and difficulty to communicate with other NCR units to get reinforcements, many of these operations would have failed. At this point, many NCR soldiers would desert back to their homes until eventually the NCR military is officially disolves. So I think the destruction of Shady Sands (which I think would be between 2285-2287) was just the final nail in the coffin for the NCR.

[@corbinbland5179]

In the scene where the ghoul is cutting up Roger. Lucy mentions the “Great Plague” of 77 in her vault. It is then later revealed that her dad Hank was behind the destruction of Shady Sands. I think it make sense that he as overseer put the vault into a shut down “plague” status to go and kill his wife Rose and bring back Lucy. I don’t see why the “great plague” would be in 77 along with the destruction of shady sands on the white board. Hank at the end of the show admits he destroyed shady sands. I think that would point that the bomb did go off in 77.

[@Flashstrike100]

Except Todd Howard went on record with IGN that the bomb happened after the events of New Vegas, meaning the Fall of Shady Sands has an entirely different meaning on the timeline and the bomb is the complete end of Shady Sands on the timeline.

[@corbinbland5179]

@@Flashstrike100 that makes sense. Just weird that her father is shown hinting that he attributed to the fall of shady sands. It’ll be interesting to see what that means later in the show if it doesn’t mean the bomb.

[@RenSako]

@@corbinbland5179He dropped whatever weapon (presumably a nuke) destroyed it, not that he was necessarily involved directly in "the fall". We HAVE to stop conflating the bombing and "the fall of Shady Sands". They are very clearly not the same event.

[@dangi6516]

​@@Flashstrike100Todd doing damage control by lying , nothing new

[@nickfury5536]

I think the NCR is still around. They're probably recovering and they have a new capital (Maybe New Reno).

[@Totemparadox]

Agreed (Todd appears) "Not so fast my child. (Zap)' "What did you do oh great Todd?" "New Reno was nuked. Somehow the NCR is now gone." (Todd disappears)

[@branflake4682]

God I hope so

[@nickfury5536]

@@branflake4682 Fingers crossed

[@slicer2938]

i mean considering how they treat other factions, it probably makes sense tbh. Brotherhood is back and better, so it would make sense that the NCR isnt completely destroyed.

[@Howyaduing]

Or maybe Vault city is now their new capital

[@frankg2790]

The problem I have with the show's depiction of New Vegas is that it looks destroyed and abandoned when it should be brightly lit and filled with light.

[@SombraCheeks]

yes and Freeside looks gone I think, it has been 15 years about since the Courier so maybe it got nuked some more or something

[@smithynoir9980]

I'm kind of hoping that was just credit art, teasing bits and pieces of New Vegas game. Surely it'll have to be populated still to this day.

[@FreeEstrogen]

Yea, I kind of hoped new vegas would be functioning still. Maybe Mr House ending is cannon and something happened causing this. Maybe he went back into a coma like last time or something idk. I hope we get good answers in season 2.

[@FreeEstrogen]

@@smithynoir9980 Hopefully, seeing a functioning new vegas in season 2 would be cool. With the increased budget with season 2.

[@michaelmay230]

When they showed it when Hank was walking up it was sunrise, which is probably the strip’s least busy time of day and I think the end art is just art to get us excited for next season.

[@luizabandeira923]

I thought the arrow put the bomb time after 2277, like " Ulysses ending is the canon" . And the "fall" refers to the multiple problems the NCR were facing in 2277.

[@zacharymccants77]

If you bomb the NCR in Lonesome Road, you bomb one trading outpost on I-15. Not Shady Sands. Also, if the arrow put the time after 2277, then why would the bomb not have its own timestamp? Seems like that would be an important date to remember.

[@crusadertank970]

@@zacharymccants77 You would actually be surprised how many times in history we don't know some information becasue it was "obvious" to the people who wrote that history. If everybody knows it then there is no point to write it down. So many key events are just referenced as everyone knowing when it occured without any date

[@SuperCasperman]

​@@zacharymccants77because it's the most recent event in a vault filled with survivors...they don't need a date until the next....moment....happens(weather the rise of NCR/death/vault 4 raided etc

[@zacharymccants77]

@@crusadertank970that’s like saying nobody mentions the date 9/11 happened because everyone just knows what happened on that day. Everyone still references 2020 when talking about Covid. Aside from that, the board is in a classroom. What history lesson in school did you have that didn’t include a date?

[@vindurza]

@@zacharymccants77 but if the bomb happened in 2277 why not put the date on it, the nuke doesn't have a date because it's the most recent event not because it happened at the same time.

[@FNARproductions]

I would place the ages of both Maximus and Lucy around 18-20 being young adults; Lucy just getting old enough to marry and have kids, and Maximus is basicly going though the hazing of a new recruit with the brotherhood. Lucy says she thought the big light on the farm was was the sun up until she was 6 after her mother died, but we later realise that's because that WAS the sun as she was in Shady Sands with her mother in those flashbacks. That means we know that Shady Sands was not bombed yet when she was 5 and given her age that would mean Shady Sands was still around somewhere between 2281-2283. Then when you look back at the flashback of young Maximus i'd say he's around 6-8 so by that estimate the bombs went off between 2282-2286. So going by that reasoning even in the worst the bomb on Shady Sands fell at some point after New Vegas.

[@necroseus]

Bingo! The show takes place in 2296 and Maximus says that the city was bombed 12 years before (2284). Maximus is shown as a child of about 8 years of age in the fresh wreckage of Shady Sands and, 12 years later, is an adult. This still lines up with New Vegas, as Shady Sands still existed in that game and it took place in 2281. Edit: I think was mistaken about Maximus directly stating that the bombing happened 12 years prior. However, as an estimate 12 years seems like an appropriate timeframes based on character's apparent age during the show's events. Not to mention all of the other evidence as well as the confirmation that the bomb is dropped after New Vegas.

[@Kaylakaze]

@@necroseus When does Maximus say "12 years"?

[@necroseus]

@@Kaylakaze I tried to verify my claim and I honestly can't find it. I think I may be mistaken. Thank you for pointing this out, I have quite a few comments to edit... lol

[@Mandemon1990]

@@necroseus Maximus never says city was bombed 12 years before. When Lucy ask what has happened past 200 years since the bombs fell, Maximus says that he was just a child when bombs fell, which confuses Lucy.

[@alexisntthis]

At the observatory there is a sign showing that it’s the NCR Headquarters. I think they’re still around and that the NCR didn’t fall, Shady Sands only fell and subsequently they have now a smaller presence in LA

[@bjiornbjiorn]

Someone made a good point in another thread that the US capitol building or the White House doesn't have USA Headquarters written above the door or the gates. Signposted HQ's tend to turn up in areas where the locals aren't familiar with the power structure such as military encampment's, relief efforts, colonial expansion, etc. That would suggest that the NCR still exists outside of South California and that Moldaver's group were either a detachment on a posting or, more likely stragglers trying to reclaim the area without the express support of the wider NCR.

[@FloofMother]

Fallout fans when you use the word “fall” in a metaphorical sense (they replaced their frontal lobe with a module that contains the text of that Reddit rant about Emil pagliurulo)

[@FloofMother]

@@bjiornbjiornfallout fans when a textwall doesn’t explain everything to them immediately (the lore is bad)

[@Bothrops_Asper_89]

The NCR was enormous, it would be odd to think they'd simply fall apart and leave no remnants or a smaller sucessor state. There's still Arroyo, San Francisco, The Hub, Vault City and other large settlements.

[@FloofMother]

@@Bothrops_Asper_89 yeah but saying that is asking fallout fans to think and not go off of something that is directly explained to them, and given the support Mr house has in the community as “the best choice for the Mojave” that’s asking too much

[@marcusfragale2375]

I HAVE THE ANSWER!! Hear me out! The key to the dates is the age of Lucy! There is a specific line in episode five minute 18:05, where Lucy is describing what it was like to look up at the sun with her mother. Lucy stated that she was four years old when she was looking up at the sun with her mother, you can see her in episode 8 minute 30:05. Now if Lucy is 18 years old when she leaves the vault, this is assuming that she reaches legal age to get married, that would mean the bombs fell on Shady Sands 14 years prior to her leaving the vault. This would make the year 2282.

[@definitelynotme4332]

Yeah, no. And Lucy also mentioned famin of 2277 that was organized as a distraction by hank to return Lucy. And we have no confirmation that she is 18 in the show. besides chalkboard is stupid because of all things you would think that the day 30 000 population town was blown up out of nowhere would be documented somehow.

[@stevenbenavidez2564]

@@definitelynotme4332it would be documented from the survivors of shady sands you might be more dense than packed dirt vault 4 is the survivors of shady sands 🤣🤦‍♂️

[@NJHProductions512]

I personally really hate the idea that the NCR failed in such a short time. After 200 years, you'd think rebuilding society would get a little farther. The suspension of disbelief is a little bit on the far end.

[@DerSchroer]

Look at the USA. It goes down, even without nukes.

[@Scott.webb64]

The entire world was on the brink of insanity during COVID, and that was just 2-3 years. I can 100% see shit going downhill fast for the NCR. They are massively short on power, water, and their financial situation is horrible DURING FO:NV. Having Shady Sands nuked would be a massive blow to an already demoralized NCR, even if it wasn't its capital.

[@adammonks591]

You say that but can't spell further and the USA is a similar age lol

[@NJHProductions512]

@@adammonks591 What does my typo have to do with anything?

[@Dungeoneer420]

Even in New Vegas it's clear the NCR is on the decline. Sure it's surprising it fell so quickly, thanks in no small part to the nuke. But I always believed the NCR was doomed eventually anyway

[@myyoutubeaccount4024]

The show takes places in 2296, Maximus says the bombing of Shady Sands happened 12 years ago when he was a kid. That means it happened in 2284. Everything’s fine, New Vegas is still canon.

[@mariolis]

This

[@darganism4338]

1. Pres. Kimball’s visit in NV is the kicker to me, that clinches Shady Sands as the NCR capital in 2281, so yes there is a plot issue. 2. The vault 4 survivors are imbalanced cultists, I wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve retconned their history for reasons yet TBD. Real world cults rewrite their own histories all the time. 3. We don’t yet know where Muldaver was preserved, when she thawed out into the wasteland, or how she came to be an NCR leader; I think her backstory will be crucial to understanding what actually happened to Shady Sands, and that’ll surely be a key plotline in season 2.

[@carl4243]

Muldaver is not the leader of NCR, kimball still is. You can see his picture during the cult ritual of the NCR survivors.

[@arizonawildcat3821]

I'm assuming the NCR is severely fragmented, spawning many minor NCR factions, but I'd be willing to bet that the NCR is still existent else where just licking its wounds.

[@lunarketchup8829]

I'd say shady sands was the only one nuked because Hank thought that it was the only city that was in America that was thriving so he nuked it. President Kimball could've been away from the capital, and also fall doesn't necessarily mean that the nuke happened then and there. Just that Shady Sands felt the crisis of resource shortage harder and therefore the fall of Shady Sands doesn't mean the fall of the NCR, but a city that was engulfed in infighting, riot, corruption, and starvation as was mentioned in new vegas by some characters.

[@MrPojopojo]

@@carl4243 where..? Just watched, there's two pictures and both are so abstract it's hard to tell.

[@carl4243]

@MrPojopojo its in the altar. He had the weird hairline in the left of the distorted women picture.

[@SH0WPECE]

Moldaver infiltrated vault 33 with a bunch of raiders, but shes the head of the NCR? And the head of the cult in vault 4? What the fuck?

[@CL-os5cz]

She's the main character LOL, she did all the side quests paths

[@e.corellius4495]

@@CL-os5cz bro i had the exact same thought in the last episode when you see her under the ncr hq sign. exact thought "how did she even get here with these rando's, first raiders, then a vault cult, and now the ncr? she do all the side quest paths or something?"

[@SuperCasperman]

What's wrong with that? Used raiders instead of NCR members, reducing the risk of death for NCR while taking out some raiders no one gives a shit about. Vault 4 are made up of Shady Sands survivors...aka NCR MEMERBS WHO SURVIVED THE BOMBING....so why is it surprising NCR worships her...you know...their leader😂😂😂🤦

[@notadogonachain1322]

​@@e.corellius4495also don't forget that she's like 200+ years old lol

[@seraby7151]

Lol! My guess is that she had the same path as F04 protag. Cryo-sleeped but not part of vault-tec. And because she was pre-war genius, she solved alot of settlement issues(especially those involving tech repair and quality of life) and rose rank fast and accidentally caused a cult following in Shady sands.

[@Chase-jc7rx]

I was really against the time stamp but I forgot maximus was there at the explosion when he was a kid. He has to be at least 18 to 20 in the show so that means he was actually born in 2277 making the explosion take place around when he was like 5 to 9 (but he seemed more like he was 8 or 9) so if you look at his age the bomb dropped at shady sands in like 2284. 10 years before the show takes place and right close to after fallout new vegas ends. If you look at it this way its completely justified as to when shady sands ends so we know it didn't fall in 2277 and we just read the chalk board wrong or it was wrote wrong.

[@lostliberty9913]

We didnt read it wrong lol. It was wrote wrong.

[@Chaosoftheunicorns]

If maximus was supposed to be 20 they shouldn't have cast a 35 year old dude that looks 35 if not older. They screwed it up, no way around that.

[@Cybertron1256]

@@Chaosoftheunicornsyou look older when you go through war and hardship, so he looks his age from his circumstances

[@Chaosoftheunicorns]

@@Cybertron1256 dude wasn't even a squire yet, hadn't seen "war" other than as a bystander which his classmates would've been equivalent to and all looked much younger and appropriately aged for being aspirants. If you're going to smoke the cope, find better cope that doesn't go against what is also shown.

[@sebastianmithieux6468]

Yeah i agree. It either was a producer´s error or, the guys at vault 4 were lying about the year for some reason. Take into account is a classroom for students (low age) so they could be teaching wrong history because of something we werent yet told in the show.

[@InhabitantOfOddworld]

I think the chalkboard is simply being misunderstood. The timeline carries on between 2277 and the mushroom cloud drawing. Factions don't just fall overnight. The decline started in 2277, and the bomb fell on Shady Sands later. That was when Maximus was a kid, and he's still a young adult in the show, so the bomb probably fell between 2278-2285 or something. The timeline abides by FO1 and FO2. I doubt the writers just randomly retconned New Vegas for no reason.

[@karolyburkhalter]

I have an original idea: Enclave Space soldiers nuked Shady Sands. The BOS will be the good guys and destroy the Enclave.

[@InhabitantOfOddworld]

@@karolyburkhalter More than likely that'll happen

[@karolyburkhalter]

@@InhabitantOfOddworld I didn't bought Starfield but honestly I expected that you could do something like join a faction and destroy the other ones or at least become enemy of these, while in Starfield you can be the guy that join all the factions without consequences, litteraly a oversimplification so Bethesda wasn't forced to do complicated stories. My point is that Bethesda is lazy and people should stop buying their games till they don't start to take their work seriously. Bethesda can go trought mere dualism.

[@InhabitantOfOddworld]

@@karolyburkhalter Bethesda has been that way for a while. In Oblivion and Skyrim, there was never any conflict to joining multiple factions. Not only that, NPCs don't react to that fact either. The only faction synergy Skyrim even has, is when you talk to Delvin in the Thieve's Guild whilst looking to rebuild the Dark Brotherhood. He will comment on the fact if you're also in the Thieve's Guild. The trouble with Skyrim is that the levelling system doesn't use classes. The gameplay loop also doesn't require the use of skills. You can join the College with the only spell you cast being the one to get in. You can join the Thieves Guild without even being a good thief, because even if you fail the pickpocketing of Brand-Shei, you can still join. Compare this with Morrowind, which does have a hard class-based leveling system. You can join any guild, but you won't progress far without the right skills. You can only join one House. If you join the Fighter's Guild first, you'll come into conflict with the Thieves Guild and won't be able to join them. That's back when Bethesda gave a damn.

[@JOJ0606]

Shady sands was nuked in 2284

[@Covah86]

If I can throw my two cents in. After the destruction of Shady Sands the NCR moved their capital to a new location. They named the new capital building Shady Sands, kinda like their version of the White House or Number 10 Downing Street or Holyrood. Something to that effect. As for the survivours of Shady Sands. Most of the survivours would likely have been those returning to Shady Sands. With the sudden lose of it's capital the NCR wouldn't be in a great position to help refugees. They were taken in by the residents of Vault 4 and eventually some would choose to rejoin the NCR but some would also choose to remain with the residents of Vault 4. Probably as a way of showing thanks and because some of them would probably want to stay. It's heavily implied that Maxmius intends to join Lucy as a vault dweller. As for Maximus saying that it didn't work out for the NCR, keep in mind he was rescued by the Brotherhood of Steel. They would have known about his history. Until his indoctrination into their order, it's possible the Brotherhood kept any information about the NCR from Maximus. Afterwards he wouldn't have had a reason to go looking. It wouldn't be the first time the Brotherhood has censored information avaliable to it's members. Not reclaiming Shady Sands also makes sense when you notice just how large the crater is. Nevermind the fresh fallout that would be contaiminating the area. Interestingly enough, if you study history you'll notice that is only recently that we started to reclaim cities after they have been destroyed. London had been completely abandoned for centuries at one stage.

[@Ivardarkreaper]

I think you forgot to mention that Shady Sands doesn't seem to be where it is in canon. For some reason it’s next to Lost Angeles. Not 200 miles away like in parts 1 and 2

[@ET-Gamer]

I’ve chalked this up to them moving shady sands in lore, like the resident literally pack up and move somewhere else and rename it shady sands. On fallout 1s map it’s located on the map in the Death Valley California region. Fallout 2 it’s located around where lake Isabella is in the southern low Sierra mountains range (this is also where junkertown is located on the fallout 1 map). I think the shady sands in the show is actually somewhere in either Palmdale/lancaster or the San Fernando valley.

[@Ivardarkreaper]

@@ET-Gamer Fallout 2 then moved the locations of the two Vaults too, because they are in the same coordinates relative to Shady Sands as in the first part. So I don't buy that Fallout 2 changed its geographical location.

[@DrLynch2009]

​@@thelvadam5113go touch grass kiddo.

[@Xiph1980]

@@thelvadam5113 Dude, I do hope you realize you're the fanboy. Most people don't get their panties in a bunch about these details at all, let alone throw a hissyfit towards a producer. It's a fantasy series. A really awesome fantasy series, but utterly made up nontheless.

[@pietro0games]

Fallout 1 and 2 everything is just a desert, its good to retcon that. Buildings had 1-3 floors... the war was a fight for oil, that makes no sense in today perspective, is good to change these things

[@mykeh3155]

Until we get either confirmation of the date the nuke dropped, or Lucy's/Max's age, it is impossible to know when it happened. We only have 2 bits of information we can use to estimate. Lucy could be as old as 27 (we know the exact day Hank moved to Vault 33 thanks to seeing the date on the side of his pod and some terminal logs, that being August 9 2268). This means there is a ~10 year window it could have happened, 2277 being near the middle. 10+ years is far too much of a window to go off of. If the West coast Brotherhood in 2296 still follows the ranking lore, Maximus is at most 19, or a very poor student that has been held back many years into adulthood... 19 would mean he was born 2276/2277. So either the ranking lore is ignored for the show and he's older, they are using different ranking lore and he's older, he's an absolute failure for someone raised by the Brotherhood meaning he's older, or the bomb dropped later than 2277. If Max was 5-10 when the bomb dropped and we go off of 19 years old that means it happened somewhere between 2282-2287, again, too big of a window, and even if we say he is 5 years older the bomb still could have dropped as late as 2282. At the very least, both bits of info we have confirm 2 things, it's possible for this to have been long after 2277 and after the events of FoNV, it however does not confirm the exact year it happened. If people involved with Fallout are saying NV is still canon, and that nothing in the show or games outright prove there is a conflict, any argument over it is foolish. We all know it's going to be a while until we get answers, if we even get any, but it's not hard to just wait, as Fallout fans we should all be pretty good at that by now...

[@creatorsfreedom6734]

court document's say lucy is over 200 year's old

[@Marci.B]

Recent Todd interview clarifies that "the fall of Shady Sands doesn't necessarily mean a nuke" and that "the bomb falls sometimes after the events of New Vegas", on a "very tight" timeline.

[@Thagomizer]

Then why isn't that denoted with another date?

[@Berry-y8d]

@@Thagomizer because it was a mistake even suggesting the fall was 2277 is a big mistake it can be maybe 2280 but not much earlier right. Todd can’t admit to mistakes it who he is once you learn that you can be annoyed but nothing more cause it’s his baby now

[@Marci.B]

@@Thagomizer idk, could be anything. Maybe in the classroom they didn't get tot that point yet and they are adding dates as they go along teaching, maybe the writers wanna expand on the nuke plot in season 2 and they don't want to get tied to a date, maybe even they initially really meant it as 2277 being the nuke and are changing it now that they realised it doesn't make sense. Regardless they are going with the fall and the nuke being separate events and the nuke falling sometime from 2281 on, so that's the end of it. Unless they change it again in season 2 but I really doubt it

[@Marci.B]

@@Berry-y8d I mean 2277 was the first battle of Hoover Dam which was basically a Pyrrhic victory for the NCR. Might make sense to expand that storyline further showing how the city itself fell into economic decline

[@Berry-y8d]

@@Marci.B meh we just know to much for that to be the case it’s just an error and we all know Todd can’t admit when he is wrong cause he doesn’t want to look stupid. I say 2280 in a attempt to push for the mojave harder that would make sense, but 2277 eeehhhhh yeah nah dog that shit just makes no sense and that’s okay we all know why. It’s about effects those effects from a decline would be felt by 2281, but they are not which is why it’s not possible. It’s well this makes sense cause x when in reality a decline would be felt instead it seems like by 2281 ncr is over reaching and still doing good. Kimble was also re elected. Meaning his crusade to take the mojave which started in 2274 with the intent on encountering residence was still kinda liked

[@turdferguson3091]

This really doesn't matter... as expected Bethesda had a buggy release. I'm just going to mod the show and change the dates shown on screen

[@Finger112]

Won't work this time around!

[@DragonsRule06]

My interpretation of the chalkboard was the 2077 fall led to it being destroyed somewhere down the line. It's even said in the Last episode that Lucy's Dad blew it up cause the Mom wanted to tell everyone in 33 the truth about the surface. So he took Lucy and Norm away from her and blew up Shady Sands(while she was still there) as a way to keep the other Vault Dwellers from finding out so they could keep up with Vault 31's plan.

[@crowsbridge]

I think 'Fall' means 'Decline' and the bomb went off after the events of the second fight for hoover dam. 2282 Max is old enough to be around 19 in 2296. What I find weird is that Shady Sands seemed so close to LA.

[@andrewpoor8165]

Also if you think about it, Max being in his early 20's wouldn't make as much sense as he's not even a squire when we first meet him, after YEARS in the Brotherhood. Not proof but certainly interesting

[@cumbloke]

Yeah, that’s how I took it too. A decline, be it political or whatever. The arrow moving to another event just signifies another time, just a shame they didn’t specify on the chalk board under it.

[@iloveyourunclebob]

​@@cumblokeI think it's because it's one of those things that when they got to it on the timeline the whole class would say the date. Like how we'd need the dates and history of the world trade center written down except at the end and we'd all say it together

[@helli0n73]

In combat/battle or extreme senarios, a city that has fallen is more or less done. We speak of something like people have fleed the city, riots going on or some other disaster. I would understand if it said "decline" on the board. A city that has been taking by a enemy is not a declining city, it is a fallen city. So either it fell by something else than the nuke, like roits, enemies etc, or they used wrong word to desscribe it on the board.

[@jackhyatt7739]

If Shady Sands blowing up was such an important thing to them, you’d think there would be a year underneath it but NO, they only put “2277 FALL OF SHADY SANDS” A Decline doesn’t seem more important than the actual bombing date

[@noahhuls]

the fall of shady sands doesnt mean it was nuked then, it probably means the fall of shady sands is just the start of the decline, the arrow indicates that the nuke was clearly after the start of the fall; maximus seems to have been 8 ish when it got nuked and he is about 22 now seemingly by the way he acts so say at the earliest 14 years before the tv show (which takes place in 2296) would mean about 2282 which is 1 year after FoNV and would thus be completely fine

[@BigCowProductions]

Very well lain out. This is my thought, too, but I didn't back-date Maximus lol

[@TheTrueEmrys]

Cope

[@Skyzius]

@@TheTrueEmrys no you're just literally avoiding whats in front of your eyes

[@MrMeme-qp9yr]

he mentions this is the video with the date being boxed in and debunks this at around 8:10

[@thadoggma]

The show clearly states shady sands being bombed by nuclear attacks directed by Hank McLean in 2277, so your theory doesnt seem to hold up too well there.

[@Thagomizer]

Amazon's Fallout series is a perplexing project that is simultaneously a labor of love and intense fidelity to detail, and yet a gigantic middle finger to long-time fans of this series that callously and idiotically annihilates all of the world-building done in West Coast Fallout games. For those who don't know (which includes the show's writers), the New California Republic isn't just Shady Sands. It's consists of five states including Maxson, Dayglow, Los Angeles, Hub and Shady, with a combined population of 700,00. And this was a country with a military force large enough to defeat the Enclave at Navarro and the Brotherhood of Steel at Helios One. And that's canon to the timeline of Fallout New Vegas. New Vegas also tells us that most of the places in Fallout 2's map are under the banner of the NCR as of 2281, including Redding, New Reno, Modoc, Vault City, Klamath, and Arroyo. The Den and Gecko are probably in NCR hands too. Yet the show mentions none of these places. Even if Shady Sands was nuked, this wouldn't destroy the NCR, and even if all of the states of the NCR fractured, seceded, or fought a civil war or something like that, and the NCR ceased to exist as a governing body, all of these places would still exist. The NCR has been around for a century, and West Coast has more less been civilized at this point. There's a reason Obsidian didn't set their game in California. Did the show's writers understand any of this? Did they ever play the first two games, or bother to research what the NCR actually consists of? Apparently not. Nor does the show give us any sense of geography. The scenes in the Namibian desert are visually terrific, but it doesn't look like California, or help to establish where exactly the characters are traversing. Shady Sands is located near the Nevada border, a great distance away from L.A., but you would never know this from the show. And the inhabitants of this wasteland? They are mostly miserable solitary stragglers in the middle of nowhere, like the sorts of people you might meet in The Road, The Walking Dead, The Last of Us, or a Mad Max parody like Six-String Samurai. There is no sense that anyone has built anything, formed an community or a culture, or made a living doing anything aside from scavenging. The only settlement we find is Philly, which is the sort of trash palace inspired by Megaton and Junktown, but the details on this place are sketchy. Who is in charge here? Where does the trade and commerce come from? We glimpse a Brahmin and see tomatoes on sale, so some agriculture is going on, but where is that? This might make sense in a recent apocalypse, but this is supposed to be 219 years later. Like in the Bethesda Fallout games, the people of this wasteland have apparently done nothing for two centuries except squat in ruins and live off scavenged food and supplies, which apparently never runs out. All of the West Coast Fallout games knew better and did better, and the ways their settlements worked were explained and justified in game. The Fallout games made by Obsidian and Black Isle at least understood that the "wasteland" phase of the post-apocalypse wouldn't last indefinitely. Indeed, Fallout 2 and Fallout New Vegas take place well into the "frontier" phase of the post-apocalypse. The question in these games isn't as much about the survival of mankind anymore so much as what sort of society is worth creating. The regional arc of Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas was impressive in that it took the consequences of each preceding game seriously. The payoff of playing these games was in working toward a narrative conclusion that showed how your actions influenced the places you interacted with long after your story is concluded. The payoff of a Bethesda Fallout game is the primary loop of activity in the solipsistic Skinner box they've designed to keep you playing as long as possible. The Bethesda Fallout game, of course, were never much interested in the question of what sort of societies would emerge from the ashes of a world devastated by nuclear war as much as they were interested in the ashes themselves. This always bothered me, but I could live with it, because they never touched the West Coast--until now, that is. But I'm sure destroying and ignoring everything on this side of the canon is totally worth it--just like killing off Hicks and Newt at the start of Alien 3, or John Connor at the start of Terminator Dark Fate. Right?

[@astillsmallvoice1815]

You summed up everything I'm feeling perfectly

[@simulify8726]

To add to that, Bethesda writers took a lot of things and copy pasted it for their own fallouts. Like Brotherhood of Steel, Deathclaws, Enclave and Super Mutant. They didn't came up with their own original ideas.

[@arbitrary_thoughts]

@@simulify8726 BGS has come up with plenty of their own factions and additions, but sure just gloss over them.

[@philswift8793]

Wait so you are making your assessment about the state of the wasteland based off one settlement? Fringe settlements still exist in the west coast. Fallout 1 was still pretty post apocalyptic, Fallout 2 was the only game you can argue is fully post post apocalyptic, as NV pretty clearly defines the societies that have been built post war are either beginning to wither and decay, or are just flat out not sustainable. The east coast games have world building problems for sure, but there are some explanations, however good or bad, for why they remain as they are. East coast was nuked more harshly, has had far more lasting and lingering dangers, and the Institute had ruined Boston's attempts at making any sort of official government several times. They are a bad faction still, and I agree that the locations of stuff has been shifted for no reason and they could've done way better in informing us of Shady Sands destruction, but this Fallout is post post apocalypse is hilariously overblown.

[@Thagomizer]

​​​@@philswift8793 Whatever "post-post-apocalyptic" is supposed to mean, it's not overblown enough. Do you have any idea how long 200 years is? Fallout 3 might as well be set 20 years after the war. Almost everything about it would have made more sense that way.

[@kaliaprophet8915]

This timeline for Shady Sands, the ghoul anti-feral drug, and the very strong possibility that they are about to force a canon ending on New Vegas are my top lore problems. The only reason for Lucy's father to go to Vegas is House. The implication is that the House ending will be canon. There are several plot holes as well. For example, when Betty takes the people from 33 into 32 to clean up and repopulate, the bodies are already gone; where did they go, and who cleaned things up? The robot Roomba didn't do it, Betty couldn't by herself, and I didn't see a bunch of robots stashed anywhere. The people in 31 are in cryo, so it wasn't them.

[@pinktruffles5156]

The Institute??

[@paynepersons6147]

I imagine that it's possible to get in and out of the cryo pods. The Roomba said "Time to clean up" everyone got out of cryo, cleaned, then went back to bed.

[@stew-03]

@@pinktruffles5156The Institute is still too small and in Boston to be in New California

[@KrystalklearEntertainment]

In the dialogue they said it was the raiders fault. Even though Rico knew it wasn't because he looked through the terminals

[@normietwiceremoved]

@@pinktruffles5156 Todd Howard has rotted your brain lol

[@dison1172]

So 2277 is when fallout 3 starts right? I’m guessing that Todd remember that date and gave it to the show runners and no one looked into it

[@e.corellius4495]

honestly this is probably the most likely true reason

[@cian2741]

I mean they've clearly done more than their research on many other aspects of the story and world building. They had absolutely no reason to have that scene with REPCONN, Big MT, WEST TEK, etc. it was probably just an oversight.

[@cjtrules1]

@@cian2741 It showed that all of those companies eventually worked together to nuke the world. It also explains why each company is so powerful with different forms of governance and organization. Showing PreConn and Big MT also sets up S2 in New Vegas.

[@salasy]

I mean they looked for all the other dates somewhere, so they should have been aware of the dates in which all the games take place

[@dathunderman4]

Yeah you clearly didn’t watch the show

[@arno_groenewald]

It doesn't seem like they labeled the nuke's date, just that Shady Sands are apparently in decline. It is still limited the knowledge we have regarding the events between then and the show.

[@Drizzlla]

If you watch the end credits of the last episode, It does a pan through New Vegas. Its completely destroyed with wrecked securitrons and a crashed NCR vertibird.

[@samuelbishop1701]

Could be because of the legion.

[@Tuite.]

@@samuelbishop1701I hope its explained well.

[@MrPojopojo]

Honestly does suck that NV is a desolate ruined husk. It would have been super cool to see a bustling city again like we could have seen in the NCR. House doing his thing with actual industry though would have been far too much prosperity for the show though. Seems like they prefer the 'perpetual wasteland' take of the Bethesda games.

[@someguy2594]

I honestly hope the yes man ending is canon

[@shoazdon7000]

@@MrPojopojoI’m not sure about house. He’s a villain and there’s a video about it on the channel does that those breakdowns. It may also be that house is still running new Vegas now since he was in the show pre war. I wonder if the courier will ever pop up or be mentioned

[@rusky9110]

I saw someone point this out. Lucy, who thought she was in the vault at the time, says a famine hit in 2277. So that could've been the fall that weakened the NCR in LA, then the city was wiped out years later. NCR is probably still around, just not in LA or even California. If they go with the NCR ending of New Vegas they probably relocated their capital there.

[@tlucas7031]

My theory is that when Emil said it was still canon, he meant it in the same sense that Fallout Tactics was declared to be “broad strokes canon.” In other words, generally, yes, there was a battle over the Hoover Dam, but any details that contradict future works will be retconned.

[@bjiornbjiorn]

Since they've said it's canon I'm personally going with the "the arrow denotes later" interpretation. It's the one that requires the least jumping through hoops, lines up with the depictions of the event in the show, and means that nothing has to change from New Vegas whatsoever.

[@footclancatz]

I dont think the show retconned anything. I think they introduced new ideas through the show that we will see in later in the show and in new Fallout games

[@dangi6516]

They retconned quite alot ... Enclave on the west coast despite being hunted down as war criminals by both NCR and BoS. Not to mention that we know that F3 Enclave forces are the same people who left west coast under Autumn senior leadership. Ghoul antyferal drug literally destroy every single fallout game . SS being in LA fks with fallout 1 . Stanisław Brown is no longer creator of cold fusion. I can go on...

[@planetrift]

NCR headquarter is in the library, where the final battle in the show is taking place. Doesn't take a stretch to think they moved to another place before then. More importantly it is the "fall of shady sands" not "fall of NCR"

[@slicer2938]

important distinction but tbf, if it was 2277 its simply too early, it needs to happen later. If it was a figurative gradual decrease in strength then it makes sense. I think they need to clarify.

[@vojtechhovorka5260]

@@slicer2938 The date could be correct. Maybe the city was destroyed, but not the NCR after all, most of the forces of the NCr were doployed in the Mojave.

[@pilotmanpaul]

​@@slicer2938But 4 years later. The NCR is still a powerhouse. Even in Mojave. After 1 of 2 of there major supply routes got destroyed. They could still put the BoS, the Legion, and the Great Khans at bay. We have terminals of supplies coming from the Main States to keep the NCR trucks and vehicles running in McCarran. They also still have a functioning rail network. 4 years after the start of this so called decline.

[@samuelbishop1701]

​@@pilotmanpaulYeah and? It took Rome hundreds of years andnlost of gradual defeats and failures to collapse. The NCR is no different. Losing one city of 34 thousand is bad, but in a nation of well over a milion isnt going to end them. It'll take a whole lot ofnother problems for that. Problems mentioned in New vegas.

[@YOGI-kb9tg]

​@@slicer2938it's not confirmed 2277 it shows the bomb after 2277 not on 2277 that was just the fall of shady sands.

[@SpartanBrix]

The billboard said that Shady Sands was the “first” capital of the NCR. So, the NCR switched capitals before the bombing. And the “remnants” of the NCR were simply Shady Sands remnants. Problem solved.

[@Thagomizer]

But where is The Hub, Junktown, Maxson, the Boneyard, and Dayglow? All of these places were part of NCR, too. The writers of this show apparently think the NCR is only Shady Sands.

[@SpartanBrix]

@@Thagomizer They weren’t featured because the characters didn’t go to those locations? Pretty simple.

[@charliemcneilson4211]

@@SpartanBrix But why are the NCR in the show acting like they are the only NCR left.

[@lost_pmc_3927]

@@charliemcneilson4211 for all they know they are, and don't know about the ncr being in thoses other places

[@charliemcneilson4211]

@@lost_pmc_3927 How wouldn't they know about their own territories of the NCR?

[@A_Human_Male]

I think it was Bethesda being Bethesda again.

[@jakespacepiratee3740]

I mean, Chris Avellone also wanted the NCR to get nuked so if anything they are upholding his vision lol

[@Animaniac0451]

The fall of Shady Sands and the nuking of Shady Sands are 2 different entries. The nuking happened years later

[@tostadoramagic]

9:58 cmon ox you of most people should know who this is

[@DueRag]

Well the problem with it being destoryed by a nuke is that a lot of people survived with no radiation damage. The hole itself doesn't look radioactive so maybe it was just a big bomb. Also it says fall of shady sands not the NCR itself. If thats the case then that would suck. Maybe they created a new shady sands. The sign did say "The First Capitol" Also are we sure when this show takes place?

[@nickfury5536]

It's 2296. I'm pretty sure they said that.

[@silverbladeTE]

No conventional bomb could EVER make a crater that big, the only thing that might would be to blow and under ground cavern but that would cause a "sinkhole" NOT a crater, very different things people really don't get the power of nukes vs ordinary explosives, please see the "SEDAN CRATER" :)

[@gabrielroy9292]

They said in the show that the crater was highly radioactive.

[@JasonAndrews1995]

No bomb in our world 👀​@@silverbladeTE

[@tdxmh]

Not all nukes leave equal amounts of radiation. Big big difference between airburst and ground det. It’s just a tv show/game though

[@kanevaldier]

You missed the fact that the Shady Sands sign says it was one of the capitols which means that there is possibly more than one.

[@Coole000]

I mean, The Boneyars was, no?

[@boothefuzzyhamster3815]

NCR had 5 declared states within it, so if we assume Shady Sands doubled as a national and state capital that refers to at least the other 4.

[@San_Vito]

@@Coole000 The only Federal capital it ever had (in the games) was Shady Sands.

[@PatrickPopovitz]

pretty sure the fight at hoover dam in 2277 he is referring to was the first war of the dam. Which makes sense as it would have contributed to the fall of Shady Sands since they were already stretching themselves thin. Idk it seems like he is trying to string things together to LOOK for a retcon but is leaving out details that could contribute to the timeline making sense

[@IssAHeYY]

The thing is, the game have established that nobody in the west coast have been able to defeat the NCR, the BoS and CL have both tried and failed on many occasions, instead, we are told the only way the NCR could fall was because of its greedy politicians and Brahmin barons, and so ending the NCR with a literal “bang” and not a slow death over time is really confusing and concerning on what kind of message they are trying to tell us.

[@donedwards4428]

Hey Ox and everyone. If you go back and match the closing credit footage for episode 8, they pan the camera through what I let of New Vegas. If you watch carefully, you will that all the other casinos but the Lucky 38, are in ruins. The gates that protected the city are destroyed. So if this is in anyway going show us what happened to the city, I have a feeling a really big and huge retcon is incoming. It looks as though only House and the Lucky 38 are left standing. Just something more to think on until season 2 arrives. Also there is one other huge error made in both New Vegas and in season 1 episode 1. We know that for a fact the bombs started to fall at 9:47 eastern standard time, but that would mean the bombs dropped on the west coast at 6:47 AM pacific standard time. You can’t have an all out nuclear in 4 hours. It’s done and finished in less than an hour. This of course is simply Obsidian forgetting to change the clock textures in New Vegas, but the episode one played into the 9:47 AM timing for the war, and it’s just not right. Let’s forget the fact that they are holding a kids birthday party at 6AM in the morning, no one does that. So it’s suppose to at the later time of 9:47. But, paradoxily, that just can’t happen. This something that was completely missed by everyone involved.. the people on the west coast weee just waking up and having breakfast when the bombs dropped. Again it’s a huge plot hole that makes no sense.

[@ju5tahu5tl3]

Great eye mate.

[@UbinTimor]

The timing of the bombs never really seemed consistent to me considering that there are skeletons in places that wouldn't be there at the point the bombs fell in pretty much all the games made under Bethesda. For instance, the Starlight Drive-in in Fallout 4 has a bunch of cars and people there. Drive-ins aren't open to the public at 9:47AM so what are all of those people and cars doing there? I lived in a City that still has an operating Drive-in theater and the place is always closed in the mornings- not even employees are there, so why are there a bunch of skeletons there? it's the same thing with the Drive-in that is in Far Harbor. So I'm not exactly bothered by the birthday party scene- no it doesn't make sense considering that in October there's no way it would be as light out at 6:47AM so there's no way to claim that the clocks were wrong or something. It's just an oversight that has been a part of all Fallout media unfortunately. The only excuse I could see to excuse this is that because The US was divided into Commonwealths the time zones and maybe even daylight savings time was altered or gotten rid of, but that's just me covering for the writers because none of that was ever mentioned in the games or show.

[@KK-qm1mr]

In the end credits scene the Strip is also littered with crashed NCR vertibirds. I interpret this as signs of a third Mojave conflict that happened after 2282.

[@donedwards4428]

The Drive Theater in Fallout 4 isn’t so bad a lore break. Back in the 70’s, really showing my age, I live on the LA area, and many of the drive in theaters would hold events on Saturday and Sunday mornings. Mainly they had what was called the Swap-Meet. Think of people bringing all their garage sale items, and setting them up for sale in the parking stalls. The theater near me did it every weekend, and you could get some really cool gear if you went. So I always felt the fact the drive ins had people at them was due to this going on.

[@UbinTimor]

@@donedwards4428 There's no indication that a swap meet is being held there though, if you look at the positions of the cars and skeletons it's clear that in both Drive-ins they were there to watch a movie. I live on the West Coast as well and like I said the drive-in that I lived around wouldn't be open that early in the morning on a Saturday it would be open in the afternoon for any sort function that way people would be more inclined to buy tickets for showings because they're already there. It seems unnecessary to have a swap meet/farmer's market etc at Starlight Drive-in when Concord is literally a stones throw a way and would make for a better area to do that sort of thing. Not to mention these Drive-ins are on the East Coast which may have different policies on something like that considering the Boston area has way more availability in spaces to do those sort of things than a drive-in theater. I only have experience with the 2 drive-ins that are in my state which rarely did anything like that just because in both areas you could set something like that up in the town square or at the fairgrounds or numerous other locations, so to me at least it never made sense as to why people were there in the morning especially when the time periods differ from our own, they may have done that in the 70's but from the 90's through to the 2000's Drive-ins in my area were only open in the afternoons. It feels like since Fallout is supposed to mimic the 1950's/60's it's meant to depict a scene of people getting frozen watching a movie at a drive-in not participating in some sort of swap meet just because I feel like they would have had a note or sign saying that was the case in order to clarify it to people like me and others who either had certain experiences with drive-ins (drive-ins only being open in the afternoons or evening) or didn't grow up with them at all considering a lot of them got torn down due to not being sustainable towards the 90's especially in my area where the weather can have a big impact on the experience.

[@skullbuster1220]

I am in the camp of the bomb happened shortly after New Vegas. I think it’s easy to assume that in hindsight the survivors could point to 2277 as the point where things started going down hill. The state of the NCR could be explained by the fact that already by the time New Vegas, the NCR was already going through a lot of hardships even back in California, if you figure they lost the second battle of Hoover Dam and then shortly after the capital blows up. I don’t think it’s hard to connect the dots there. There’s also one important thing people are leaving out. We are discussing a slideshow of dates for children with out the teacher giving the lesson for that day. Bullet points with no further explanation, you don’t usually write down everything you want to say when making a presentation.

[@magwaaf]

The show was damn near flawless

[@CKVMP]

Kekw

[@sacredxgeometry]

My favourite part is how they walk right up to the impact crater in front of Shady Sands, without immediately contracting Radiation Poisoning, since it only happened 12 years ago, the radiation would still be immensely powerful. And that Lucy's geiger counter isn't ticking off the charts. And that there isn't a sickening fog hanging over the whole place. And that the buildings are even in tact AT ALL, considering the range of the blast is less than a quarter mile from the city itself. I welcome the angry discussion comments, but this isn't the only continuity error in the show, in itself it creates half a dozen more.

[@sacredxgeometry]

Or, hell, when Maximus left his shelter pod, he would've been incredibly sick, his skin would probably have pustules on it, and he would foam at the mouth. It's very unlikely that he would be able to survive coming into contact with the blast radius after leaving the pod without contracting some serious health issues. On top of this, having the Brotherhood of Steel show up and immediately be STANDING IN the ruins of Shady Sands doesn't make any sense either.

[@CJVP99]

Don’t real life radiation levels drop rapidly only like within hours or a few days? The more radioactive a substance is the faster half life it has no?

[@stevenread1676]

Also, according to the show, the occupants of vault 33 have never opened the vault door leading to outside- yet they know who raiders are, even though they've been essentially isolated from the outside completely.

[@supermstash29]

Well vault 101 was told to us to never have been opened and that was a lie also

[@arbitrary_thoughts]

The concept of raiders isn't something that only exists post bombs falling, they have existed throughout history. We have also seen plenty of Vault-Tec training videos, and so I would assume that one would cover the expected danger of post-apocalyptic raiders/scavengers.

[@VerbalAssault360]

the show literally shows us in a fucking scene that they lied???

[@user-il9ze9py8c]

I loved the show overall, but really hated how they managed the ncr.

[@HoratioCanus]

I really hope they are not gone because 30 000 in one city, got nuked, out of the 1 million citizens they have spread around on the west coast. Or maybe countries work like that, taking out the capital is like the king in chess. :p

[@mappingshaman5280]

​@HoratioCanus historically destroying the capital doesn't mean automatic victory. For example when the qing dynasty conquered the ming capital of Beijing they just moved to nanjing. Another example is when the japanese massacred nanking, the chinese government just moved to chongqing.

[@thedarudecactus3179]

I hope they are canonically up north where growing crops is easier, there are remnants like we saw in the show, of the NCR who remain near LA but after the nuke they moved far away with less contest.

[@sexilatinoboi69]

To be fair the ncr is spread out they all dont stay at the same place

[@Willpolita]

Me too

[@nwalsh3]

There is one thing that I don't think you take account for and that is that given the post-apocalypse and the history of the founding of the NCR and what it is based on, is it not conceivable that when the bombing occurred the NCR didn't completely unravel and instead it just 'moved' capital? If anything the surviving and building something at the end of the world should give the NCR it's the will to rebuild, maybe even de-centralise so they don't have everything in one basket? I can see the NCR battling on with a "oh now you made us mad". For the most part, apart from the farmers, they mention sending things west, not explicitly to shady sands and the crop-farm could be explained that it happened when shady sands is still around. (though I cab't say that with complete certainty as I've not played NV for some years now). We've had capitals falling in our history that did not mean the end of the country, so there is that. A bigger lore-problem to me is the inclusion of Mr House in the show as a person that knew what would happen. This raises all kinds of questions as to how his character is in NV. I can't remember now if he was named on-screen but he is mentioned in the credits so I guess that counts. Or am I completely wrong and missing something here?

[@elijahgrimm8052]

About House; He was indeed present. The guy behind the RobCo plaque during the meeting pre-war? That's House. He knew to protect Vegas because he knew when they would strike. His line about calculating when the bombs would drop could have been him lying to the player. Or maybe he got confused after so long in isolation and rotting in his life support pod. Either way, he wasn't EXPLICITLY named but come on, we should all know that's Robert House.

[@smithynoir9980]

@@elijahgrimm8052 He may have even still needed to calculate the bombs trajectory. Vault-Tec and Co may have made the first strike, but the rest of the world also responded with nukes.

[@Aspis7]

This is quite implausible. I guess the answer will be known on season 2...they could have done it to agitate the lore masters.

[@FalloutPBC]

Todd Howard just gave us the definative answer, 2277 is the "fall" we don't know exactly what that is yet. The bomb doesn't get detonated until directly AFTER F:NV in 2281 and he also confirmed the NCR will still have active areas and will likely be back in season 2.

[@chaz_eptv1430]

then why isn't there a year for the nuke?

[@FalloutPBC]

@@chaz_eptv1430 The impression I got from the interview was they didn't want to be boxed in on the exact date for a reason. He mentions they monitor dates closely and there is more to come from the NCR in the future. Problem solved let's all move on.

[@ohauss]

And yet we have people reference Shady Sands in NV.

[@ohauss]

@@FalloutPBC I trust Todd to get a coherent story together about as much as I'd trust Robert Anderson from U Mich to keep his pants zipped up if he were still alive. Lore in TES by now is a sorry mess, and he's routinely shown he loves to ROFLstomp over lore previously established by others.

[@FalloutPBC]

@@ohauss You must of missed something. He confirmed the bomb goes off AFTER NV ends.

[@filipzietek5146]

Shady Sands also magicly teleported hundreads of miles to LA and and is not longer a city built from 0 which begun as an ancient sumer style adobe farming village. Real respect to to canon... so the vaults 13 and 15 must be in LA too or else how would have the vault dweller stumble upon Shady Sands while going from 13 to nearby 15? Does Bethesda want to cram everything into LA due to their stupid obsession with setting entire game story within a single city like Washington and Boston? So fallout 1 story has to be retconned to be self contained inside the LA? Judging bow how many ghouls there are in the show i suppose Necropolis was also some district inside the LA not Bakersfield and maby even Philly is actually the Junktown after a name change....

[@thomaslacornette1282]

Yes all this is clearly bigger problems than the date of nuking Shady Sands who can just be partially destroyed everbpody kind of forgot Hiroshima and Nagasaki still existed very soon after bombings.

[@assassinwolf2719]

Something else I noticed is that if Vault 33 is located in Santa Monica. How did it survived the events of Fallout 1? Because the Master would’ve just gotten information on the vault and send his super mutant army to invade and wipe it out. Another plot hole?

[@songsayswhat]

Yep. It amazed me that all those vaults had their entrance right out there in the open.

[@The-three-eyed-Prophet]

the only thing that makes sense is that the start of shady sands fall was in 2077 and it ended with a bombing ...

[@grady3251]

The actor that played Maximus in those flashbacks is 8 y/o. If that's the case in the universe, it would make Maximus 27 in 2296. That's REALLY old for an initiate. I truly think they did not intend for "the fall" to mean its destruction. The fall obviously is tied someway to the first battle of hoover Dam. I think the canon ending of New Vegas is that the NCR lost the dam, and so in universe historians looking back see the first battle, where perhaps the NCR starts relying on the Hoover Dam as their only power source leaving them vulnerable once they lost it, as "the fall". The same way we look at "the fall" of the Roman Empire as the invasion by the goths, even though they still exercised power for decades following.

[@rufflesthegreat2264]

What if they go back to the chalkboard and say whoops wrong and erase it and say one of my students changed the date because hes silly and put in the real date

[@Bountyhunter108]

Lol

[@personman1148]

Make it a cutaway gag in season 2

[@andrewmathewson341]

The writers have confirmed on Twitter the previously accepted timeline dates are still canon, so yes, the blackboard is wrong.

[@christopher_dd2005]

Make it the opening scene of season two

[@blackflagsnroses6013]

@@andrewmathewson341it’s not wrong. It shows the nuke happened after the NCY was beginning to collapse. So first the NCR was being fractured and years later after NV they nuked the first capital of the NCR, but they likely had move the capital elsewhere before Shady Sands was destroyed

[@lycos94]

i got kinda confused when they revealed the ''raiders'' that killed dozens of innocent vault dwellers just to get one guy were NCR, especially because of how violent and savage they were after the vault captured them too

[@Mufasa_Shabazz]

Maybe things are different since the fall, and the nuclear bomb in shady sands..

[@usdramaqueen1]

She could have easily paid raiders to get the job done. She seemed to very much care about her people and knew the risks of going into the vault.

[@galacticgamingguy5906]

This irked me too but when you see the NCR in episode 10 compared to the raiders in the rest of the show they seem quite different. Griffith Observatory NCR have civilians and their gear and armour are much better organised and militarized. They also literally have NCR flags all over the place. The Vault 33 guys seem more like atypical raiders using Jet and improvised weaponry. It wouldn't surprise me if the only former NCR member there was actually Moldaver and the rest were raiders she hired or picked up along the way.

[@terence1621]

She probably hired them. Just like how Benny isn't a Great Khan, some Raiders work as hired help sometimes

[@cjtrules1]

An explanation is they weren't NCR and were hired raiders.

[@MrOyvindrs]

According to Fallout 1 & 2 Shady Sand is way north of LA (closer to New Vegas actually). It makes no sence for the protagonists of the show to walk from Santa Monica, all the way up to Nevada and then back to Griffin Observatory. Are we ever sure we are talking about the same Shady Sands?

[@rambled]

I think they changed the location of Shady Sand to somewhere in or near LA in the show. This is considered by some another lore break, either the changed location or the far distance which is impossible to walk.

[@bcvetkov8534]

Btw. The show is absolutely cannon. The directors absolutely said so. Todd Howard absolutely said so. This is the show that's supposed to go hand in hand with the games itself. Bethesda definitely messed this up. The vault tec plotline is also problematic for the games.

[@chaos.corner]

Weird. It's common for shows/movies and original content just to have different continuities and nobody thinks much about it. They could just have done that. (and it's how I'm regarding it).

[@BliniMango]

​@@chaos.cornerSame, there's a lot of shows where things change bc the creators have a better understanding of how they want the story to play out. I don't think people understand that a story is forever developing and changes could be made. It happens all the time. This is the strangest trip I've ever seen for a show over a little chalkboard date. Like who actually gives a shit? It's like ppl don't know NCR is a whole ass faction, not a location. I swear I hate being a fallout fan sometimes.

[@jakespacepiratee3740]

I love how the FNVagabonds act like ONLY Todd wanted the NCR to be blown up. Chris Avellone wanted it too. The FNV man himself. You rage against the dreams of your god lol

[@ixinor]

And? Whatever is being discussed here has no merit. There is no problem or lore mistake. Just pure nonsense.

[@anvos658]

Yeah well Fallout BoS was also canon until it wasn't.

[@realAndysan]

You also missed in the show that Maximus said the bombs fell 12 years ago, he was at shady sands. The show takes place 2296, that means it was bombed in 2284. Funny how you missed this while watching.

[@IDPhotoMan]

People just Choose not to listen.

[@germancringetoks1797]

bro the fall doesnt mean it blew up on that date. its just that it began to decline at that year. yall cant read a simple chalkboard

[@CanberkKarabag]

You just saved the show for me my dude I didn't even realise that lol

[@edgeoftheuntimeworld]

The Fallout subreddit has been full of "those NV fans" for some days. It took them some time to understand that the arrow on the board meant that the bombs dropped AFTER the fall of Shady Sands. This whole shitshow showed us that these fans 1) don't understand arrows, 2) don't understand that a town can fall before it gets nuked.

[@someonelikejaden]

@@edgeoftheuntimeworldAs someone said before, the entire situation is being blown out of proportion easily. 2296-12=2284, 3 whole years after the events of New Vegas. Therefore, it clears up the junk with the whole “shady sands was bombed in 2277” message. For what we know, the “fall” could’ve BEGAN in 2277 which then LEAD to the bombing in 2284. Better yet, the showrunners/writers left the chalkboard with NO DATE where the mushroom cloud is at because they want speculation, and they want fans to question! Time is the ultimate weapon as Bud Askens says or whatever idk.

[@JakeTB577]

What I don’t understand is how Shady Sands was nuked and how did vault tech have access to Nuclear weapons

[@SuperCasperman]

I mean is it that surprising vault Tec who launched the nukes to start the war has nukes laying around somewhere?

[@d.stomper1970]

I know 76 is the red headed stepchild of the franchise, but it's clear now why Vault-Tec wanted to secure the automated nuclear missile silos in Appalachia...

[@DashCamSheffield]

@@SuperCasperman Vault tec may not have launched the first nuke. All we heard from a plan or suggestion to launch a nuke. If Vault Tec DID launch the first nuke, Janey Howard would have been ready in a vault alongside her mother, the one saying the plan to first strike, rather than helping her dad Coop Howard at a birthday party. There is also the events prior to New Vegas, Mr House is in the meeting where this is said. If Vault Tech had launched first, he would have been prepared by the time it all started, but I believe he states to the courier that he hadn't gotten the predicted time correct. Vault Tec may have planed to do so, maybe even prepared to strike first, but it doesn't look like they did

Also the show implies that one man was responsible for that but we never get an explanation of how he did it.

[@DashCamSheffield]

@@SuperCasperman There's nothing to say vault tec struck first. All we heard was a plan or suggestion to do so. If they had struck first, Janey Howard would have been in a vault at the time rather than a birthday party. Mr House, who was at the meeting, wouldn't have been caught short, and would have been prepared, but even says to the courier that he hadn't got the time right. Vault tec may have planed to, maybe even prepared to strike first, but they don't seem to have done

[@TheGalantir]

It's funny how so many people are set on finding lore breaking stuff and are now all proven wrong. I bet none of them will post a video about how they were wrong.

[@omegavalwin]

another thing if shady sands fell in 2277 why would lucy mom go there? she took her kids to a place that fell, not only that but why would Luccy dad nuke a place tat fell? only reason he nuke it was because the place was so awesome.

[@gctcauto]

Good point, a falling City/NCR wouldn't be a threat the Vault-Tec's power.

[@San_Vito]

That's why the most likely explanation is that the bombs did NOT fall on 2277, but after that. Otherwise, Lucy and Maximus would have to be older than they are, they should be in their early 30s, and they clearly aren't.

[@Scarecrowkaiser17]

People sure are jumping through hoops trying to deny that they made a mistake

[@TheLumpyShield]

yup. I say it was prob a prop error that snuck by.

[@benashurov7434]

I think the NCR decided to get up an leave after getting nuked. Moldaver decided to stay behind and lead a group on a quest to get revenge on Lucy’s dad. Meanwhile the leadership, who never met him, cuts her off cuz they think she is on a wild goose chase. So the NCR we see in the show is not the real thing.

[@anvos658]

That doesn't make much sense that they'd who sale pull out instead of setting up an outpost there, given Shady Sands is too much in the middle of the NCR, given it spans at least CA and Baja. Plus their government would lose major legitimacy if they just abandon part of their population when a crisis happens.

[@rejgnar]

What is most curious is, that Shady Sands in the series is located in L.A.

[@sk8ergrrl1]

Let’s just hope that Season 2 offers more clarifying information. The writers had to pack a lot in only 8 episodes. All we found out in the final episode is WHO is responsible, we don’t know how they accomplished this or exactly when it happened.

[@Darktusken]

they dont fully explain how moldaver survived all these centuries (like its obvious she was in cryo) but was she in a vault,enclave ? her own shelter? how long she lived in sandy ?

[@snit22]

It has been suggested that the "fall of Shady Sands" in "2277" is an event prior to it being nuked. There is time arrow after that event. The "fall" may not mean its destruction but its fall in a political or other sense. In other words, the nuking happened later than 2277. If so, this is not a mistake.

[@nunya_bizniz]

Yeah I thought that was obvious when I saw the chart on the board. These lore fanatics are just overreacting.

[@savageminotaur9229]

Did anyone else feel like certain dialogue in the show was just not it at all, like the extremely weird sexual lines lucy and Maximus exchange in vault 4 are so cringe

[@SuperCasperman]

I believe(don't quote me on this) that was a "game reference"

[@Hero_Of_Old]

They have to show a whyte girl and bleck man together, thats why.

[@drdoomer8553]

@@Hero_Of_Oldwalk outside

[@savageminotaur9229]

@@Hero_Of_Old no that’s not it at all. It was just god awful dialogue on the show writers part, spent too much time making Maximus talk about his unit instead of focusing on getting the lore right apparently

[@davidw5837]

@@Hero_Of_Old True. God forbid there be a white couple in 2024. Everything has to be DEI. Its so on the nose and forced, just look at Cooper and his syrup bottle

[@HitachiTRQ-225]

8:30 maximus is only about 20-25 years old and the bomb dropped when he was a kid (probably 8-10 years old) meaning it could have happened in the 2280‘s so it could likely happened a few years after new vegas takes place. So maybe its going on the phrase „rome didnt fall in a day“ and it did gradually break apart and climax in the nuke

[@calebdewit3797]

Todd just commented on this… it happened after new Vegas

[@carbondragon]

Hollywood and our culture has, over time since the 1960s, become increasingly convinced that humans have no possible positive future. Every apocalyptic movie and tv series (and there are a lot of them) show humans not only not cooperating to build a new society but in fact murdering each other mere seconds after any disruption in our society. Under this continued pressure, the creators of this series couldn't let the idea of the NCR existence stand for even a second. They believed it was absolutely vital to make sure they showed that humans couldn't cooperate to build anything ever. That's why despite the continuity error, they destroyed the NCR because it was too optimistic even in a pessimistic game like Fallout.

[@Anwelei]

It’s this right here!! Having any sort of positive future is absolutely beyond them. Plus it’s a cheap way to develop drama. It’s like how injecting sex and nudity into a show can be used the same way. I also think Hollywood can’t write successfully in an established settings. They *require* a clean slate and can’t function any other way.

[@Smokinjoewhite]

The series takes place in 2296, Maximus doesn't appear to be older than 20 and in the flashbacks to the Shady nuke he appears to be around 7 or 8 years old (the actor is 8). If we assume he was 20 at most that would mean the bomb was dropped around 2283-2284 at the absolute earliest. I don't think the fall and the bomb are the same thing.

[@IDPhotoMan]

Exactly. I've tried to explain this to people, but some folks just see a Bethesda conspiracy and won't open their eyes.

[@brom8t]

I really don’t care about the dates/timeline but maximus looks at least 30 compared to the other asprints

[@IDPhotoMan]

@@brom8t lol no he doesn't

[@mattcorby]

Seems plausible that the fall of shady sands started in 2277, and led to its eventual distruction later. Thats what the box (start of the fall) and the arrow (leading to mushroom cloud) is inferring, at least in my mind. Remember, the diagram is a time line, the fact the cloud isn't boxed in with the fall, and a (time) line leads to the cloud is the key here I think. I think you're getting a bit overwhelmed by a box and and arrow, my dude 😎

[@manuelmoralez2257]

The dates line up 2277 is the same year of the battle of Hoover so the down fall refers to economic instability from spreading thing the bomb happens some time in the 2080’s Edit 1 the ghoul drug from what we seen isn’t to prevent from becoming feral its seems like it’s for those who’s already starting and takes it to slow it down like the old ghoul said he was turning for 20 years which brings up the question who made it? My question is what’s with the focus on the enclave doing stuff in both the show and now the dlc coming for 4

I have one question that I want explained. Why does the show refuses to show any of the unique enemies that we have seen in all the games. Additionally, we only get to see one settlement in 8 episodes. Is there any specific reason for that?

[@SuperCasperman]

I mean there's more seasons....we got yaio Guai, a death claw skull, a gulper, radroach, could of sworn I seen a bloatfly(unless I blinked in it was a roach flying), ghouls, a super mutant hand...might be saving Cazadors/death claws for vegas

[@danielcarrera886]

Well to be fair the west coast was as hit like the east coast. In the games that take place in the east coast it’s apparent that it’s more dangerous and destroyed. Why in the west it’s more controllable and tamed in comparison to

[@samuelbishop1701]

Probabaly because they're saving it. We saw ghouls, radroaches, and other mutants. With the Brotherhood being actuve for so long in the region seeing Suoermutants or Deathclaws in force wouldnt make sense.

[@ConnorNotyerbidness]

​@@SuperCaspermanwhered we see a super mutant hand?

[@MrPojopojo]

Deathclaws seem to be saved for season 2

[@KrystalklearEntertainment]

Why is no one talking about the retcon of the time when the bombs fell? It was 9:47 am est when it started but somehow it was in the middle of the day on the West Coast?

[@MoonbeamGardener]

Can't believe I missed that. Is FO4 the only reference to the exact time? I honestly always found it odd that the bombs dropped in the morning but the drive-in movie theater had so many cars parked outside...

[@LegitimateCK4120]

I don't think there's a specific time they gave in the show for when the Bombs dropped. It was daylight on the west coast sure, but I've seen birthdays take place early in the morning (It would 7:47am in LA)

[@LegitimateCK4120]

@@MoonbeamGardener I can think of one activity they were doing in their cars that early in the morning 😉

[@KrystalklearEntertainment]

@@LegitimateCK4120 yeah but generally at around October 23 the sun rises around at 8:19 am

[@TheIrishGamerGuy]

*Autism intensifies

[@WeDontHaveToBreed88]

Lonesome road dlc established active nukes in 2281-82 after the NV events. I think the show writers left out the date to leave some mystery for season 2

[@tickeater1776]

The “you can’t please everyone” quote is so real. People will find problems even when they’re not there. Every single complaint I’ve seen is almost immediately followed by a valid explanation, and yet people still complain. Idk, you guys are wearing me out, I wish we could just enjoy things.

[@tickeater1776]

Like if your lore complaint is immediately followed by hundreds of people writing essays about how you’re wrong then idk, maybe reconsider

[@tickeater1776]

And we all know fallout fans can’t think for themselves, so as soon as they see someone who they perceive as a professional on the lore say the show got something wrong they’ll all believe it

[@weall1208]

"You can't be right if the majority disagree with you!" Lmao Bug mentality.

[@losvikings2584]

Todd Howard confirms the show is canon with all fallout games even Vegas. The timeline could mean something else. Wait till next season

[@noodlespoo]

Bethesda is slowly and deliberately destroying everything related to Black Isle / Obsidian. Fallout 4 is full of tiny retcons and "different takes" with a goal of building a straight continuity from 3 to 4, trying to write NV out as much as possible. It's also the reason we won't get another Obsidian Fallout game. Todd is a jealous Godd.

[@rambled]

When you refer to the FALL of a city or a country, what does it mean? In most cases, and most intuitively, it means that this city or country cease to exist or changed completely. For example, the Fall of Constantinople means it now belongs to the Ottoman and no longer Eastern Roman. It doesn't make sense to mean the time when Constantinople started decline economically or whatsoever. For another example, the Fall of the Soviet Union refers to the dissolution of the Soviet Union, not the economic decline or internal struggle or other events that leads to the dissolution like Soviet-Afghan war, (which could be the Mojave Campaign in the case of NCR). This 2277 Fall of Shady Sands, at least from what a normal person would interpret intuitively, is the fall of that city. For a sane writer, he would want people to understand his words intuitively, if not he might want the viewers to misinterpret or have doubts deliberately. Since it should still be worth nuking before being nuked (still of enough economy strength or else to be considered competitive by Vault-tec), the fall of the city should be the time when it was nuked. Some say the date is like 9/11 and thus no need to be mentioned. But the point of the white board is to educate those who don't know, like kids, and newcomers, not solely for those who already knew it.

[@haillight14]

There were so many problems with the show that just bothered me so much. Like what even was the purpose of vault 111 if they had the entire management of vault-tech cryogenically frozen? How was Moldaver one of those frozen people (presumably since she's pre-war) even frozen to begin with since she's clearly not vault-tech in the past. Or her being in Shady Sands and then in vault 32, and Hank somehow didn't instantly prevent her from coming into 33? How about the raiders that mostly likely weren't raiders but actually NCR soldiers acting like ferals and killing the people in 33? Or did Moldaver just take a group of raiders into the vault rather then her NCR soldiers? There are so many plot holes with this show and I honestly hate that I even have these questions and no answers.

[@Darktusken]

For the raiders i can see moldaver hiring a bunch of disposable thugs to do that job not risking the lives of her followers , notice how they have nothing in common behavior wise, but for the rest moldaver while was most likely frozen , theres lots of questions about it that you mentionned and im unsure how she even contacted the enclave defector to begin with

[@klaatuNaatu]

I could see Overseer Hank not recognizing Moldaver because of some scenario like this: He finds his wife and daughter while Moldaver is out on a trip (scavenging, maybe some kind of business trip to another huge NCR hub, or what have you), he POTENTIALLY is told about his wife's new friend by his wife (only in character, not in name because she introduces herself as Moldaver in the vault as far as I recall) otherwise he could've just assumed that his wife was seeing someone else out of jealousy, then he could have taken his time to decide whether he wanted to drop a nuke and how he could kidnap his daughter before doing so. As for how Moldaver is implied to be from pre-war somehow, that irks me a little bit as well. The Ghoul clearly recognizes her, so that is interesting. Since she's dead now... I wonder if that will be explained when The Ghoul finds out what happened to his family.

[@auguste418]

Could be that the NCR relocated the capital and renamed it Shady Sands. The Brotherhood was ultimately humiliated in the BoS-NCR war so the NCR has likely annexed a lot of already well developed territories that could qualify as a New Shady Sands. They could name it "New Shady Sands" and the people could still refer to it as "Shady Sands". It's not uncommon for refugees/survivors to name their new home after their old one.

[@glez13gt]

That could explain why the crater is so close to the LA ruins(the Boneyard), when Shady Sands is way northeast, even farther than Bakersfield. But the problem is that you are still stretching things to make them fit and thus it would probably still should be considered a retcon.

[@falloutshorts]

I wish they didn’t make the T-60 fly like an Iron Man suit.

[@SuperCasperman]

Like what?

[@falloutshorts]

@@SuperCaspermanregular goats?

[@SuperCasperman]

Fallout 3 had two ppl take care of a herd of goats who survived in a bunker with survivors...they eventually died with the chickens to radiation...so I guess it's possible...​@@falloutshorts

[@falloutshorts]

@@SuperCasperman yeah I remember that but never actually in the wasteland

[@SuperCasperman]

​Can't be mad that goats are alive....that's like getting mad squirrels or beavers are alive in 76​@@falloutshorts

[@MachineDog90]

Personally, to me, people are getting mad over the possibility of a mistake for all we know it should have been 2282 or that due to the events of Fallout New Vegas economic issues started in 2277 and end with the bomb going off just after the end of Fallout New Vegas

[@JacyDavies]

The show doesnt say Shady Sands was destroyed at that date, just that it 'fell.' Seemed like they were talking about social decline. The nuke has no specific date.

[@chilloutyo87]

" The fall of shady sands" doesn't mean it's destruction remember NCR was at war all over, it would be like saying WW2 all took place in 1938 when we all know it didn't end til 45 I assume these vault dweller seeing the constant war assume it is all connected.

[@Atari_Safari]

I'm confused by this video because the NCR is fighting the Brotherhood at the end of the first season. Clearly the NCR is not gone. The arrow on the timeline points to the bomb after 2277. They obviously left info out and are going to New Vegas in s2 and will likely answer many things then.

[@thepinebros.1873]

I feel like they didn't make it clear enough if Moldaver and her gang were a legitimate part of the NCR or just a cult fighting in memory of the NCR/shady sands

[@FreeEstrogen]

Moldaver's group are NCR remnants in the region lol. So this doesn't mean the NCR is gone or not, they could not be in contact with whats left of the NCR at all or they could actually be a party sent to reestablish some kind of foothold or obtain the cold fusion.

[@San_Vito]

The BoS detected someone achieving cold fusion and arranged a raid for obvious reasons. It's the BoS. I think this is one of the least controversial aspect of the series. It doesn't imply that the BoS has a super strong presence in the area nor anything like that, at least, not in season 1.

[@xx_amongus_xx6987]

@@San_Vito Well it does, because the BoS in the show seems way more powerful than the BoS in F:NV which makes no sense.

[@Darktusken]

@@FreeEstrogen Were they really confirmed as such? couldnt they also be say an ncr troop that was sent to help moldaver?

[@sums6653]

After the battle at hoover damn at 2277 the NCR is spread too thin and is often mentioned in the game. When you go do the sheriff mission and if you talk to a NCR soldier for help he says so himself. The Nuke drawing just needed a date put under it to clear this confusion but I'm guessing they're leaving it somewhat open to fit everything but it is confirmed to come after new vegas. The NCR is not even close to dead just weak af which is prolly gonna be a plot point in the following season and were gonna figure out why.