The Brief But Controversial Battle Of The Aegean, 1974

[@GeneralJackRipper]

Something tells me both sides quietly met after the incident and agreed to just sweep the whole thing under the rug and forget about it.

[@MichalisG1821]

It wouldn't be the first time such an agreement was reached after we've shot at each other. There have been incidents in the border region in Evros - some of them major - that both our nations have ultimately agreed not to act on further. So it wouldn't surprise me if a similar accord was had after this incident.

[@alexandermonro6768]

​@@MichalisG1821Sometimes, wishing to avoid escalation _IS_ a good idea.

[@Fastbikkel]

@@alexandermonro6768 Yeah it appears to have been a very constructive decision.

[@chewbacca3269]

​​​@@alexandermonro6768 For real. And despite it being a strong rivalry between turks and greeks, for them to be able to agree upon something like this directly or indirectly is really good. Honestly as neighbours they should just get along well and the region would be much better off.

[@paulroustan3643]

I believe you don’t know how hard headed Greeks and Turks are? So I don’t think it was just sweep under a rug

[@fafner1]

Back in the eighties I worked for an aerospace instrumentation company. I got assigned to attend a professional meeting when my boss decided he didn't want to go. At dinner one night I happened to sit next to an engineer who worked at a naval test range. He explained that because target drones were expensive, during training the Sidewinder missiles were routinely programmed with an offset so they would miss the drone. He went on that with the Falcon this was not necessary, as it usually missed the drone anyway. He mentioned that the nickname for the Falcon was the "Friendly Missile".

[@gotanon9659]

Might want to check on his BS tho

[@michaelmoorrees3585]

Probably apocryphal. But the Falcon missile was a early design, with limited capabilities. The Sidewinder, even early versions, was a much better missile. Of course, successive versions, should be considered completely different missiles. The modern version of the sidewinder has a range over 25 miles, and can track a target, even if initially pointing in the opposite direction. Early versions, only had a 2 mile range, and the target had to be inside the narrow cone of the missiles seeker (a lock) before launching. We're talking of missiles that have had multiple versions, for over 60 years, but still retain the same name.

[@potatoradio]

​@michaelmoorrees3585 When the thought in development was that you would likely use the nuke version IRL, how close is good enough?

[@daszieher]

@@gotanon9659 I think I've heard the moniker "Friendly Missile" before... 🤔

[@reinbeers5322]

Sounds like bullshit. There's a series of great interviews with an F-102 and F-106 pilot here on youtube, where on one occasion they successfully intercept a cruise missile in a training exercise with the Falcon. Not just any Falcon, but the one that was being carried on their aircraft when they were scrambled over to the testing area, so not a carefully inspected brand new one.

[@mondaynever806]

Thanks for another great episode. I spent the preceding hour flipping through superficial and flashy documentaries on Netflix before remembering that what I actually want is detailed analysis of specific events and aircraft, so here I am again!

[@panosg8626]

My father was part of the next pair of f5s, ready to take off after Dinopoulos-Skabardonis. As far as he knows, they both made it back and landed safely to Anchialos a/f

[@christsoug8533]

Δόξα και τιμή στους Ήρωες

[@leventyazyel1768]

​@@christsoug8533🤣🤣🤣🤣💪🇹🇷💪.... 🇬🇷➡️🤮🤮🤮🤮

[@minertheo]

The F-5s were used as proper all-round fighters by the HAF, not trainers. They took that role in their last years of service.

[@geogeo2299]

the dude is apparently getting all of his info on the HAF from wikipedia or something

[@phouliscostantinou1767]

Most of them in 1974were in Israel……..

[@sixstringedthing]

Haven't watched it yet, just got the notif a minute ago. But I just wanted to say thanks for the excellent work you do here, particularly in your wonderfully natural and conversational - yet highly technical - scripting and your very comfortable and relaxed narration. This is rare stuff mate, very well done. Cheers. ed: obviously also appreciate the immense work that goes into finding accurate historical photos/documents/references etc. This is a full-time job!

[@aaroncarter4089]

How can you say all that when you haven't seen it, haha

[@sixstringedthing]

@@aaroncarter4089 Because I subscribe to the channel and I've watched about 90% of the content, haha

[@ba780YT]

Fantastic video! I love learning about lesser-known conflicts.

[@maciek_k.cichon]

This is ridiculous! So many flights and actions investigated, so many sides offended and still only 38,3k loyal wingmen.

[@Veritas.0]

Well, I just subbed. This is my kind of channel.

[@Z1PP00]

Correction; It's 38.7K 😁

[@absoluteunit3885]

39.2 now :)

[@MrSpantis]

You mean that the dogfight wasn’t exist?

[@maciek_k.cichon]

@@MrSpantis I meant that not clear situations often ruffle some feathers (he even said so in this material). But it can bring subs - which I sincerely wish to the autor of this channel.

[@goddepersonno3782]

It's quite funny how there are always five different realities in a clash between pilots of opposing nations. 1st - the true reality, what actually happened 2nd - the reality as seen by the pilots of side 1 3rd - the reality as seen by pilots of side 2 4th - the "reality" as claimed by the propaganda of side 1 5th the "reality" as claimed by side 2's propaganda sometimes, we only have access to 4 and 5. How far are we really from the truth? I imagine it's possible to be very, very far indeed in cases like this - no matter your spin on the given data. That said, I find Not a Pound's verdict a reasonable one in this instance. Great video, looking forward to more in the Greece v Turkey series

[@AndrewGivens]

His analysis of Ofira was top notch too. Beautiful deconstruction of evidence and case-building based on likelihood vs fantasy.

[@Matt_The_Hugenot]

The varying accounts, where at least one side is lying and probably both, remind me India-Pakistan air battles.

[@Ace-Av8er]

1971 india-Pakistan air battles and kills were proven in Pakistan's favor by General Chuck Yager, he was the air attachee to Pakistan at the time and went around in PAF helicopter to all IAF fighters crash sights, took photos, parts serial number tail number and so on. PAF opened his war time records to him for his analysis which India refused to do.Yeagar devotes a whole chapter to this in his book. John Frickers also backs up Pakistan's air combat kills in his book.

[@Matt_The_Hugenot]

@@Ace-Av8er No.

[@Ace-Av8er]

@@Matt_The_Hugenot ok. You are a bigger unknown authority then Yager or Fricker. Got it

[@Matt_The_Hugenot]

@@Ace-Av8er you have your facts wrong.

[@Ace-Av8er]

@@Matt_The_Hugenot no, you

[@bboxx069]

Thanks for another video on Greece and Turkey. I've been looking up info on this since your last video on Cypress.

[@FryingTiger]

Cyprus.

[@bboxx069]

@@FryingTiger Thanks

[@nacirizagolu741]

CYPRUS not Cypress. Cypress is a tree.

[@chrisfetas2181]

Cypress hill

[@nacirizagolu741]

@@chrisfetas2181 CYPRUS

[@thejonathan130]

"The Deuces real Achilles heal..." What an interesting and ironic choice of expression, considering who was fighting and where.

[@yes_head]

So essentially this was a Cold War within a Cold War? What could possibly go wrong?

[@BringBacktheGreeks]

Exactly, and this Cold War Never ended, and still going on. The biggest Beneficiary is the US jet fighter and missile industry.

[@LondonPower]

This war going on for a 1000 years Byzantines vs Turks

[@BringBacktheGreeks]

@@LondonPower Correct, and I could say this is The Friction Point between Civilizations.

[@Αναστάσιος-σ8υ]

​@@LondonPowerEurope vs islamic barbarity. Only that now you have them drinking their tea in Edgware road

[@JohnnyWishbone85]

@@Αναστάσιος-σ8υ -- This time is about when Turkish atheism was pretty much at its peak. The religiosity of modern Turkey (Tuhrkeeyeh?) is very much a product of Erdogan and his lackeys.

[@JoséSette-z9h]

Thanks for making a video on this interesting subject. It would be great if you could explore other aspects of the aerial side of this conflict, especially blue-on-blue incidents, such as the sinking of the destroyer Kocatepe and downing of Greek Noratlas transports.

[@Aiden_321]

Imagine being in the place of a Turkish pilot, after the dogfight, you land your aircraft and go home. The next day, Greek newspapers report that you have died.

[@keyeah0]

It wouldn't be very nice for both sides

[@osint6372]

One dead pilot and the other crushed......End of story.......Go tell your lies to those who dont know.

[@Aiden_321]

@@osint6372 Old greek dude. If we accept that the pilot is dead, then Turkish planes must have flown without a pilot time to time for the next 10 years because the man is listed as alive in official documents and continues to perform his duties. How logical do you think your claims are? I know you have nothing but ignorance and hatred, but you are making yourself look even smaller than you already are

[@chronozeta]

@@osint6372 Are you gonna cry? Dont crash more into Aegean, specially not your Ah64s, ahahaha

[@George_Washington_]

@@osint6372 one becomes a higher up in the air force and the other goes to become a civilian pilot, and you're saying they were killed you're a fanatic

[@lancerevell5979]

The Convair F-102, like it's later F-106 sibling (which I worked avionics on in the late 1970s), were designed as high level bomber interceptors. They were never designed for close in dogfighting. The Deuce was used incorrectly.

[@minertheo]

Perhaps they did mot expect the Albatross would have fighter cover

[@Heike--]

The only one in the whole thread (or many military aviation channels) who knows the difference between fighters and interceptors. It's sad, really.

[@marcusott2973]

Much awaited, much appreciated looking forward to excellent insights as always from you

[@BallisticCoefficient]

This production is magnificent. The footage as well as the technical data and tactic explanations are absolutely superb. I think this is one of the very best productions I have ever seen in in 20 years of my my Armchair generalship. Thank you!.

[@thomasbell7033]

Oh, and I want to add that this channel just gets better and better. The old aviation writer in me wants to nitpick on airplane matters, but this guy does immaculate research. He gives me virtually nothing to bitch about.

[@johngordon9426]

7:49 - Pretty sure you can't classify the F-5 as having a bubble cockpit.

[@babboon5764]

@@johngordon9426 😋 toche Although it sort of is 'though 🙄

[@Allan_aka_RocKITEman]

Planes flew, things happened, planes landed {RUD or otherwise}. Those seem to be the only confirmed facts of the entire incident.

[@chaosinsurgency6636]

Well, you’re failing to mention the poor visibility Which apparently they didn’t spot the f102 till around 200 meters which for sidewinders engagement the minimum range is in between 480 to 840 feet

[@babboon5764]

And that Turkish radar state they saw an aeroplane descending (But not where it went after that)

[@skibidi.G]

Ahahaha hey man , do we watch the same videos even in widely different channels ? 😂 I can't believe it tbh 🤯

[@rath6599]

Your conclusion is popular with me. If there were a loss on either side, there's a real possibility that it would've been followed by more losses. Excellent video

[@RCAvhstape]

KZbinr and former F-106 pilot Bruce Gordon has stated that he thinks the radar version of the Falcon was a pretty good missile, so long as it is paired with the proper radar and fire control system and a pilot who knows how to employ the weapon properly. He said the F-106 could handle itself very well in a dogfight, but only after he and his fellow pilots were trained for it, as F-106 and F-102 pilots were generally only trained for interception missions. So one question here is how well were Turkish F-102 pilots trained, and can the F-102 handle itself in a dogfight given a properly trained pilot? And how well did the Falcon work with the F-102's avionics?

[@minhthunguyendang9900]

The F-102 was armed with Falcon AA missiles right from the beginning. So their avionics must be well compatible. The Falcon armed the F-89 Scorpion before the F-102.

[@potatoradio]

The fact that the F-102 was the stopgap - kludge version of the 106 doesn't help that argument.

[@minertheo]

@@RCAvhstape well, he is right that you should review the combination instead of the missile alone, but both the Falcon and the F-102 were not designed with dogfighting in mind

[@RCAvhstape]

@@minertheo Not being designed for something is not same as "can't do" that thing. Gordon states he found the F-106 was a good dogfighter once he trained up for it, and there is also the example of the A-4 Skyhawk, a light bomber which was used for years by Top Gun instructors to fight against students in F-14s. I don't know that much about the F-102, other than the fact that it was disappointingly slow compared to the Six, but maybe it can dogfight subsonic? That was my question.

[@minertheo]

@@RCAvhstape open sources think the 106 as the true evolution of the design and don't speak highly of the 102. Other than that, training is a great factor.

[@PvtPartzz]

I wonder if maybe the F5 pilot in trail accidentally launched a missile after seeing the doors open and after seeing the missile streak the 102 pilot fired his missile reflexively then dove away. If it was a sarh and he broke the lock, the explosion they saw could have just been the missile self-destructing. Both aircraft shoot downs could have been their respective missiles self-detonating after losing lock/running out of fuel.

[@tommyhijmensen6257]

I never new that the airforce of Greece flew the Mig 28 ?😂😉

[@Tluccodis741]

you were in a 2g inverted dive?

[@tommyhijmensen6257]

@@Tluccodis741 actually thats classified,but i have a picture🤣😉

[@PasleyAviationPhotography]

Tired joke everytime a F-5 is mentioned 😴

[@Naturalintelligence1907]

@@PasleyAviationPhotography tired but still funny ;)

[@JimmyCricket93]

Do you do the art for the thumbnails? And if so, can you do a storefront where they can be purchased please

[@Jack2Japan]

Very interesting example of human memory technology. Explains a lot about inflated kill claims.

[@Tentacl]

As in any military engagement, the first casualty is truth. We will never know for sure.

[@natehess7663]

AWESOME Channel ! ! Thnx much!😊😊

[@minertheo]

Keep up the good work. Nice to see that so far we remain civilized in our comments.

[@CoffeeMate-bn9vm]

The map you are using at 5:39 is incorrect. It shows 12nm territorial waters in the Aegean which is in fact 6nm.

[@JoyMadrugada]

Its a legit right for Greece to expand up to 12miles and i m not saying to the border line

[@CoffeeMate-bn9vm]

@@JoyMadrugada this is categorically not true.

[@JoyMadrugada]

@@CoffeeMate-bn9vm lol why ????? Where there is border limit is splitted already ...And according the regulations is 100%Legit .

[@umutyldrm6838]

​@@JoyMadrugada when the war escalates after that 12nm, are you gonna fight on front lines? Please do.

[@c.r.t.]

@@umutyldrm6838 ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

[@nicholasmaude6906]

While the AIM-4 Falcon missile didn't have a proximity-fuse it did however have contact fuses on the leading edges of its' wings so if it grazed its' target that would also trigger its' warhead.

[@SyGiba27]

In Cyprus,there were a steadfast Communist support for President Makarios.Also Cypriote Communist party was faithful to the Soviet Union..In 1973 the coup of Brigadier Ioannides in Greece, a U.Sbacked general,because his opposition against socialists and communism and the subsequent coup by 39-year-old Nikos Sampson in. Cyprus used against churchman Makarios.. Sampson declared himself the leader of the Hellenic Republic of Cyprus. On July 19, 1974,Making a speech at the Council in London , Makarios said that the Greeks occupied Cyprus and that the Greek flag was flying in all Cypriot government offices and that there were great losses and that the Greeks were murdered Cypriots and more dangerous than the Turks and that the independence of Cyprus had disappeared and its people were in danger. Britain and US did not support Makarios. It's not hard to understand why .The Turkish Army landed on the island from Kyrenia Karaoğlan location on the morning of July 20, 1974.Meanwhile, on July 23, the Greek junta in Athens Greece was overthrown and N.Sampson resigned in Nicosia. During and after the actual operation The Turks where in matters where they had rightful cause with some politicians incompetent attitudes and demands in many agreements, meetings and negotiations over the years. This prevented gains for Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots in Turkey's rightful cause. The fact that the guarantor state, England, did not want to take the initiative caused many problems. With this operation, the Turkish Cypriots were protected and the annexation of the island to Greece was prevented, but even if the operation was not carried out, I think the annexation of Cyprus to Greece would never have happened

[@ΔημιουργίαΞανάΚαλαμάτας]

Cypriots are Greeks. Makarios was a PDF and was threatened by UK intelligent services in order to stop the unification of Cyprus with Greece

[@aegeanphantom]

Kudos for your clear headed analysis on this event. Everyone can believe what they want about how the events turned out, but those who were there probably know better. I have one minor thing to add about the narrative of the lonely Greek Albatros, that makes no sense to me. There is no way that it was performing jamming without any other air operation taking place at the same time, or without cover from fighters. Sounds more like a wrong report to me.

[@talostactical]

Good point there. AFAIK jamming is used to mask an attacking force from detection or to prevent guidance or SAM missiles, and it is considered an act of war in peacetime, since no war was ever declared. The story of the Albatros was probably fabricated as an excuse for the illegal incursion of the opposing jets in to Athens FIR without filing a flight plan or radio contact with Greek ATC. That was a new tactic at the time and they needed justification to make it look legal.

[@jimanast3593]

@aegeanphantom Turkish lie, probably. I also wander if this was technically possible (probably it was, otherwise it would be a self proven lie).

[@aegeanphantom]

@@jimanast3593 I would love to answer to you and write even more of my thoughts, but apparently I cannot. I suspect I am being reported for everything I write about the subject by, let's say, "users of unknown origin", and my comments keep getting deleted. I stopped trying, cause apparently there is no freedom of speech in youtube.

[@camdenharper7244]

History of the AIM-9 would be a good topic for your channel

[@PosthumousAddress]

Didn't he already? If not he definitely will; he's already done the Israeli Pythons so definitely will get to Sidewinder. This channel is a treasure

[@Araistleaph]

I didn't know the Greek side was telling a very very wrong version of the story. My father was an officer leading those jets into battle, I know the incident from the first account.

[@VangelisKontogeorgakos]

The scenario you present in the video seems quite realistic to me. I don't believe that the F-102 could score a kill against an F-5 in a dogfight. The scenario where Dinopoulos saw the F-102 bailing out using its afterburner and thought that he had scored a kill is also quite possible. Kudos for correctly pronouncing Skambardonis's name, a name that we Greeks can easily mispronounce, although you had a hard time pronouncing Achialos! Looking forward to your next video in this series!

[@DaveSCameron]

And the radar?

[@VangelisKontogeorgakos]

@@DaveSCameron Do you mean the Turkish radar that lost the Greek F5? I dont know if the radar can definitely confirm that the F5 went down.

[@talha6852]

You are greek, of course the greek theory would sound more realistic to you

[@officialboomtish214]

@@talha6852no surprises there. Inherent bias at its best.

[@talha6852]

@@officialboomtish214 man these greeks are something else, if you met with them or worked with them you probably know What I mean

[@christaras21]

Here's a an interview of Skampardonis, narrating the incident: kzbin.info/www/bejne/emK8qqSHeaaYaNUsi=dfhVGTAvgpdonwEV . He seemed proud to describing that. Is there any relevant Turkish side evidence?

[@stoinercraft6389]

do you really think any of the sides would tell a story that will show them incompetent? both of the stories should be taken with a grain of salt but the theory of "they swapped records, names, those pilots definitely died!!!" just sounds delusional, and your source is an interview, do you think a pilot would say "oh yeah the turkish air force guys shot down my wingman" (the same goes for turkish side) you being (or sounding like) a nationalist is affecting your thinking ability

[@cheekibreeki4638]

I was gonna take you seriously til you decided nationalism is such a nasty thing. Its normal. Healthy.

[@christaras21]

@@stoinercraft6389 ok then, please provide a relevant evidence from tbe turkish side. By the way, nationalism is what provided Greeks their much worth independence.

[@stoinercraft6389]

@@christaras21 problem is not being a nationalist, it is being a "fanatic" one

[@AlanToon-fy4hg]

Some 50 years after the fact, we will never know for sure...

[@diinekis100]

1.we are actually know truth because greek pilots still alive and speaking on tv but the 1 pilot from one turkish plane nowhere to be found and they fired first.....2. and you understand where the truth stands by the fact that the second turkish plane made emergency landing while out of fuel.....why he do that if was at winning side and not panicked as hell?

[@Onattttt]

@@diinekis100 Nice lies. The Turkish pilot of the incident died from cancer some years later his name was Veysel Sayın he gave couple of interview on what happened. Our side fired because of your side's aggression first. Refueling means refueling not winning or losing... Very stupid takes you can find on aviation by greeks...

[@crimfan]

Early Cold War US jets vs. each other... an unusual battle.

[@ULTRA_2112]

1974 is certainly not early in the Cold War...

[@WMMASceneNow]

@@ULTRA_2112no, but both jets were from the 1950s

[@ULTRA_2112]

@@WMMASceneNow Sorry, my mistake, I read it wrong. I thought "early in the Cold War" referred to the incident. Best regards from the Federal Republic of Germany.

[@crimfan]

@@ULTRA_2112The jets are. I phrased it a bit awkwardly.

[@burtbacarach5034]

@@crimfan WHAT?Civility in the KZbin comment section?Unacceptable!FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!🤣

[@icspawn]

According to a veteran commander of Turkish air force, a greek f5 also crashed to Aegean sea, not by a missile but a maneuver to escape dog fight. The greek pilot mixed sky and sea direction and crashed to sea. A tragic moment for a pilot.

[@ronaryel6445]

Error in this video: The Greeks were not in a "loose deuce trail formation." Trail formation means exactly what it says Loose deuce means the fighter jets are lined up to the same imaginary line connecting them, about a mile apart, so each pilot can clear the other's six o'clock.

[@nontas27]

Your analysis is quite good, and I believe is correct. I did my own research for the subject and came to the same conclusions. Only difference, I believe that the F-102 actually fired a missile, which of course ended up on the sea and caused the splash both Onur and Dinopoulos mistaken for an a/c crashing into the sea. (conditions at the moment described by Scabardonis were "descending spiral, below 10k ft, hazy"). The incident actually is not of a great importance comparing with what was happening these days in Cyprus. I believe it is over emphasized by Greek researchers and historians as a "balance" to what is considered by Greeks a betrayal to Cyprus, the (last moment) cancelation of the F-84F's and F-4E's missions to stop the Turkish invasion.

[@DarkLordGR9]

No matter the perspective you are trying to "view" the incident, the outcome, is simple. Two Greek fighter aircraft engaged in a real dogfight with two Turkish. Missiles were fired, FROM BOTH SIDES. Both Greek aircraft survived, and returned to base safely. Turkish DIDN'T! Now...add one plus one and tell me it makes...ELEVEN!

[@nontas27]

@@DarkLordGR9 These days 5000+ Greeks died, 1600+ went missing, 162000+ lost their homes and properties, 36% of Cyprus became occupied (and remains so for 50 years). You think it is worth bragging about the possible shoot down of 1 F-102 (hopeless in a close in dogfight against F-5's anyway)? That was war, not a football game.

[@DarkLordGR9]

@@nontas27 You have to clear up, your mind, so to be able to distiguish, stating facts, from bragging. Turks are trying to vary the outcome of this dogfight, as they always do, with similar cases. REMEMBER the "collision" of the Greek frigate "LEMNOS" with theirs "Kemal-Reis", and the fairytale, they tried to sell, as if they had hit our frigate when it was actually the other way around, and the greek ship, had opened a hole, on the side of Kema-Reis, the size of a CAVE? Well, if we let them, it's gonna be LIES UPON LIES!!! So....I'm just putting things straight. Third party users, may take one version or the other, but I won't let Turks vary the truth.

[@Αναστάσιος-σ8υ]

​@@nontas27the F-102 was not hopeless at all against the F-5. Bruce Gordon talked a lot about the effectiveness of the AIM-4, and the 102 could carry six of them internally. The Dagger was also easy to fly and very manoeuvrable. The main advantage of the F-5 was the internal guns

[@TheHakanBrgl]

@@DarkLordGR9 Lol your perspective is ''YOURS'' so thats your reality... It's funny how you try to make others accept your thoughts as real, just as you don't see the other person's thoughts as real. The open source data of both sides is clear, both sides reported to NATO that they lost a plane but no pilot. Yes, someone may have lied, but I don't think there is anyone who can really say this other than those who were on the radar that day and high-level commanders. Confusing emotions with facts is the real foolishness. The truly wise person is the one who is open to all thoughts and interpretations. Moreover, no matter what anyone says about this incident, I do not think it will contribute the slightest to the current situation in either country. Because no matter who wins, it will not help the situation then or the situation now.

[@seyfettinzorbey429]

Greeks always manipulate things in favour of themselves. Turkiye didnt lose any jets at that day, even one of Turkish F-102A's pilot Vasıf SAYIN gave many interviews before he passed away because of cancer. A Greek pilot told that in his book, he fired a missile through Turkish jet but It didnt warmed up properly so not sure about its accuracy, but the jet he fired a missile was landed on a highway and its pilot was dead, "the" plane he is talking about was flying by Vasıf SAYIN back in that day, I think this explains a lot easilly.

[@angelman93]

one jet crash and the turkish pilot died..the other retreated..thats a fact,why are yoou so impressed by this and call it manipulation?...probably cause you dont like the Greeks buddy...

[@sohrabroozbahani4700]

Imagine that you are a prestigious fighter pilot, in a up and growing modernised air force, extensively and expensively trained to do ONE THING... and then Imagine yourself going up there in your first really real war mission, in a very important historical turning point of your respective nation's history, and then having to come back down and tell your higher ups... "yeah, you know, things tend to get really chaotic up there when the hat is dropped, and i just wasted like a couple million dollars of your budget, accomplishing hardly a survival of myself..." that would look seriously bad on your resume, war will end eventually, but god damn it you have a career on the line here...

[@greensoldier2142]

My father was in the Bulgarian army at that time, he didn't hear anything of the incident. He never even spoke about anything about his time in the army. I don't know why I am saying this

[@PosthumousAddress]

Amazing, you have actual archival footage of an F-102 being hit by a Sidewinder (presumably in a live fire exercise)

[@viperf16blk69]

Some corrections: Its true that one Turkish F102 made a crash landing on soke highway and yes it had a gyro malfunction. Though it was piloted by lieutenant Colonel Vasıf Sayın and no he wasn't killed. He survived the landing and returned to base with minor injuries. He passed away in 2020 due to organ failure. Also there's a video on KZbin where a third pilot from Turkish 182. Squadron who was in the same base on that day talking about how he met and talked with Captain Onur after he shot down the plane after he landed.

[@daszieher]

Correction: after he (genuinely!) _thought_ that he had shot down the other aircraft. The most probable scenario is the one presented in this video.

[@viperf16blk69]

@daszieher Only God knows it I guess 🤷

[@daszieher]

@@viperf16blk69 if even that 😃

[@nickkorkodylas5005]

_>it had a gyro malfunction._ Heh!

[@viperf16blk69]

@@nickkorkodylas5005 What's wrong?

[@JayEliot]

I am glad that I paid so little attention to good advice; had I abided by it I might have been saved from some of my most valuable mistakes.

[@LookSharpBeSharp-e4f]

I'd believe the turks, they werent run by a military dicataorship at the time. Greece was

[@geogeo2299]

Yep Turks never had those nasty dictators, it was total pluralism and freedom of speech there, ever since the beginning It's not like the Turkish military was much involved in Turkish politics now, is it The fact that they have one coup d'état going every 5 years is totally irrelevant too 1960 Turkish coup d'état 1961 Turkish coup d'état attempt 1962 Turkish coup d'état attempt 1963 Turkish coup d'état attempt 1969 Turkish coup d'état attempt 1971 Turkish military memorandum 1971 Turkish coup d'état attempt 1979 Turkish military memorandum 1980 Turkish coup d'état 1997 Turkish military memorandum 2007 E-memorandum 2016 Turkish coup d'état attempt 2021 Montreux Declaration, by 103 retired admirals but likened by some to a military memorandum "Memorandums are demands for significant policy and leadership changes made upon the civil government by the armed forces, backed by implicit or explicit threat of a coup."

[@LookSharpBeSharp-e4f]

@@geogeo2299 Okay now go compare the turkish military shenanigas to the rule of the three colonels

[@geogeo2299]

@@LookSharpBeSharp-e4f Naahh that's your job, not mine.... I just listed here for you all the coups d'etat in Turkey since the 1960s. But I'm sure you can go compare how many journalists the Greek Junta imprisoned back then, with how many of them are imprisoned right now by Turkey's 'democratic' government. Please, do compare those numbers for us. You're our favorite dictatorologist.

[@fabianviales4825]

Common problem when joining NATO, turkey is particularly fucked beyond repair by the counter guerilla and rigth wing politicians

[@Gokhaninanc-pv2pw]

1980 Turkish coup d'état 1960 Turkish coup d'état except from this 2 rest does not matter so as Sharp said its true we didnt ruled by dictatorship by that time.

[@ethanmckinney203]

It's possible that the training Greek pilot, knowing that his radio wasn't working, fired the first AIM-9 without a lock to scare the F-102 pilots into breaking off. I would hope that keeping his wingman alive would be a priority.

[@basilb4733]

Is the picture of the two aircrafts at 17:00 minutes up to scale?

[@minhthunguyendang9900]

Yes, the F-5 appeared later as a light fighter for exportation. The F-102 conception dated back to the late 40s

[@AdamStoltz-y4g]

Love the F5 BTW. it's a nice design, as is the updated F20 Tigershark.

[@shaider1982]

Turkey had F102's? I did not know those were exported

[@GeoBBB123]

As did Greece apparently

[@shaider1982]

​@@GeoBBB123 ahh, yeah, mentioned later in the video.

[@georgesheffield1580]

Old NAT GUARD aircraft .

[@nenadpetkovski1563]

Yes, F-100 too

[@wormyboot]

The F-5 (et al.) is very high on my list of favorite aircraft, not just fighter jets.

[@MotoMarios]

In an interview, Skampardonis stated that many years later, met a turkish officer in a NATO meeting. Their discussion came to the events of that day and the Turkish officer, not knowing who he was talking to, claimed that the Greek pilots had also died in the event. Skampardonis denied the fact but the Turk insisted. Then Skampardoniss stated "Do I look like a ghost?" at which point the Turk was just left flabbergasted.

[@viperf16blk69]

Cool story bro

[@talha6852]

Süre pal

[@viperf16blk69]

@@talha6852 Kıbrıs Harekatındaki ezikliklerini böyle uydurma hikayelerle atmaya çalışıyorlar

[@noticing33]

Then I stood up and clapped

[@jimanast3593]

I wanted to write it too. Thanks for saving me from writing!

[@tholmes2169]

There is an old Thames documentary on this that’s on their channel, was but I don’t remember much about the air component being discussed. It’s a good background though since it was done while the war was going on.

[@georgesheffield1580]

The 102 had a very good radar system . Would loved to see a 106 with canards .

[@marble25]

If Greeks "won" this battle they would scream loud and wide. Most likely they lost a jet and also couldn't annex Cyprus. And Turkey had already won in Cyprus and kept the lid on in this incident not to hurt them even more.

[@Αναστάσιος-σ8υ]

You are completely wrong about it. The state doesn't even recognise Cyprus veterans as veterans of war. Let alone propagandise our successes. The point is that the planes that were involved in the dogfight we know even their serial numbers from our side, while on the Turkish side everything is obscure because they want to hide that their Deuce was shot down and crashed

[@angelman93]

Greek pilots won the dogfight whether you like it or not...thats a fact

[@KerrBill]

Knowledge rests not upon truth alone, but upon error also.

[@nanying777]

You are not mentioning the most important political element of the operation which is the Greek side was not the army of the legitimate civil administration's forces, it was the coup d'etat forces.

[@rexracernj7696]

I'm surprised people aren't mentioned the relation of this to the Cyprus war of the time.

[@jimanast3593]

@rexracernj7696 The Cyprus conflict is mentioned at the beginning of the video; the dogfight is part of the Cyprus conflict.

[@pyronuke4768]

I believe the Falcon missile gets a bad rap and isn't as poor as you would think (although I'd still prefer a Sidewinder overall.) I think a lot of it is down to the Falcon being an obscure missile these days. People assume because it was ment to go after bombers it couldn't track fighters. This is only half true, the numerous accounts of Falcons tracking but failing to detonate are enough to discredit this. The 10.8% hit rate in Vietnam puts it on par with early Sparrows. Compared to the Sidewinder it was faster and had an arguably better seeker. But the 7 lbs warhead was small enough that a direct hit would be needed to take down a large bomber, hence the lack of a proximity fuse that was really this missile's Achilles heel. There was an improved ''Super Falcon" (AIM-4E/F/G) that had a longer burning rocket and a warhead that was half again heavier than the original Falcon, however it was only fitted to F-106 which were never deployed overseas, Bomber Command jealously horded them for the northern border just in case the Soviets ever tried anything. I have not been able to find any sources confirming or denying these Super Falcons received proximity fuses, though given the much larger warhead it would seem foolish not to. EDIT: after some additional investigation I have discovered the Super Falcon did indeed have a proximity fuse, however it suffered from reliability issues and the missile was often deployed without them relying on the backup contact fuse. The final thing I want to point out is the Falcon upgrade for the F-4D was, quite frankly, pretty rubbish. It lacked the fire control systems the dedicated interceptors had, meaning the pilot had to manually set the missile up for launch themselves, including cooling and uncaging the seeker. The Falcon's IR seeker required it's parent aircraft to keep it cool just prior to launch; this wasn't a problem for dedicated platforms like the Scorpion, Voodoo, Delta Dagger, and Delta Dart as they had enough coolant to keep the missiles queued up and ready for several minutes on end, but the Phantom II upgrade only had enough for about two minutes per Falcon. This means Pantom II pilots had to wait until the last minute to ready and launch the missile, and if they failed to launch the missile in the allotted time frame it couldn't be used again later in the fight. This is in part why the Air Force went to Peltier (thermoelectric) cooling in the later E/J-model Sidewinders. TL;DR the AIM-4 Falcon, while not perfect, isn't quite as bad as many make it out to be. There was an improved XAIM-4H in development by 1970 which would have fixed many of the AIM-4D's failings (including a better seeker, larger warhead, additional range, and crucially a proximity fuse) but unfortunately budgetary restraints cancelled it in favor of the cheaper Sidewinder.

[@ricardobufo]

Falcon is hardly obscure. USAF pilots in Vietnam knew it well ... and wish they didn't 😁

[@pyronuke4768]

@@ricardobufo obscure missile *today* -- most sources you find in a quick Google search primarily heckle the AIM-4D's poor performance in Vietnam.

[@thatdude3938]

AIM-4 was a trash missile. In terms of kinematic performance, maneuverability and reliability it was a dead weight at best

[@pyronuke4768]

@@thatdude3938 Based on interviews with pilots who actually used the AIM-4 in combat, the general consensus appears to be that it was a difficult weapon to set up for an attack, (something that was unique to the F-4D conversion, which just so happens to be the most commonly platform to equip it in Vietnam), and many times it did track but the lack of a proximity fuse cost them the kill. As for the missile being useless an unreliable, it was only in theater for less than a year and achieved a 10.8% kill rate, downing four MiG-17's and a MiG-21 from 54 launches. For comparison, in those same 11 months Sidewinders managed 3 definitive kills and 5 probables out of 61 launches, or about 5% to 12%. Maj Gen Dick Pasco, 8th TFW, on the Falcon missile said: "On my 6 January 1967 mission, I was able to maintain a position of advantage behind the second element of MiG-21's after I had shot the leader down. However, even though I fired three AIM-9s during the turning engagement, none found the target due to the weapon’s limitations. To address this generally recognised deficiency, a decision was taken to adapt existing AIM-4s to the F-4 as a potentially enhanced dogfighting weapon. Having flown the AIM-4-equipped F-102, I was familiar with the Falcon’s characteristics and limitations. Unfortunately, the AIM-4 was declared unfit before I was able to convince the 8th TFW of its merits. While the Falcon’s flight dynamics were better than the AIM-9’s, the arming and firing process was more complex - certainly in a dogfight environment. The AIM-4 was a hit-to-kill weapon, and to achieve the required accuracy it used nitrogen to super-cool the seeker head before launch. This design is effective, but adds a degree of complexity to the missile launch sequence. In the all-weather interceptor application, the added complexity was managed by the weapons system. However, in the F-4D application, the pilot had to decide to fire the weapon 90 seconds prior to it actually leaving the aircraft, as he had to push a button to discharge the nitrogen and then fire the missile within a lapsed time of between two to three minutes after the nitrogen had been discharged! Not An easy task to complete in a 6g turning fight." (Quote from "USAF F-4 Phantom II MiG Killers 1965-1968" by Peter E. Davies)

[@AdamStoltz-y4g]

I was in Greece in 1974 and so remember the invasion and events of the day very clearly.

[@George_Washington_]

hopefully your country won't attempt another coup in the other half of cyprus now eh?

[@Thecrownswill]

Lovely episode mate. I do have to say though, it’d be great if you put in subtitles!

[@The_CGA]

The Auto-generated ones are pretty reliable. In fact I think he may have a true transcript, I am reading “meter” abbreviated “m” as I type this. Just switch them on. If you mean the kind that are burned into the video TikTok style, no thanks

[@khatokhato9350]

I agree. I acknowledged the speech, only when I turned on the subtitles!

[@RexMilne-m6v]

Opportunity often comes disguised in the form of misfortune, or temporary defeat.

[@haluk6161]

This link includes sources about the incident and tells the inside story of the incident.

[@grikurt7216]

As I understand there was an air skirmish in 1974 and causalties were concealed from folk as an landing accident etc in order not to escalate the skirmish to a war.

[@ismetyalimalatli7581]

I have listened this incident from the Turkish side many times and read the HAF account in different sources over the years. Both sides (we are all stubborn and proud people around the Aegean Sea ) are adament tgat they had a kill...so I agree with your conclusion. I have recieved a fair share of sneers in my local modelling circles for my similar views.

[@ChristMore]

The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth.

[@LolTollhurst]

Greeks and Turks lying? About being good at war? Well I never.

[@osint6372]

You are clueless

[@berkehan4808]

You see, one side actually won every single war they fought against the other in the last, like, a thousand years.

[@petros311]

@@berkehan4808 not true! both sides lose and win wars the last 1000 years!

[@ufukpolat3480]

​@@berkehan4808Is that why Greece is an independent country right now and the Ottoman Empire's corpse is rotting away? Greece defeated the Turks in multiple wars at the beginning of the 20th Century. Between 1912-13 in the first balkan war, Greeks destroyed Turks massively, helping accelerate the end of the Empire. A century before that Greeks kicked Ottoman ass to gain independence.

[@ChillakoC92]

@@berkehan4808Winning every war for the 1000 years is probably the reason they got kicked out of Europe and nearly lost half of Anatolia ehh?

[@blackheartsnite]

Does the video sound slowed down to anyone? When I put the speed on 1.25 it sounds normal. Just curious, great video

[@AndrewGivens]

Our good friend 'Pound' narrates slowly and methodically. That may be the effect you're detecting. Experience has led him to this presentational decision. I approve.

[@Kmancanada]

Good analysis at the end

[@jimanast3593]

Very nice video, well searched!

[@highjumpstudios2384]

This really gave me a pound for air to ground.

[@chriswerb7482]

I'm not sure what US missile bases in Turkey would have needed defending. The Jupiter IRBMs had been withdrawn from Turkey and Italy in 1963.

[@mustafailkerercanli8581]

@@chriswerb7482 Turkey now has its own air defence and ballistic missile systems.

[@cankarakaya7594]

Operation code name: Ayşe can go on vacation...

[@JZsBFF]

If a tone is that important, then why can missiles be fired without the pilot hearing one?

[@starsiegeplayer]

You would think it would be a simple thing to add this interlock, but maybe that was too much for 1960's technology.

[@JZsBFF]

@@starsiegeplayer LOL. The generation that invented the most powerful tools of destruction in human history couldn't put a trigger safety on their bombs. I'm amazed that we're still here.

[@JoshWalker1]

Afaik it's deliberate, as there are several scenarios you might want to be able to fire through various error / fault conditions as well as use them in extremis as unguided rockets. However I wonder how many times that's actually been useful vs how many missiles were fired prematurely

[@EgbertHousman]

The two walked down the slot canyon oblivious to the sound of thunder in the distance.

[@TheNormanbro]

I just wonder something. On your map there is only 2 city had been shown. One of them is Balikesir (which i can understand that) the other one is Soke (actually Söke). Why Söke? There is military installation on Söke (or any where close) Aydın or İzmir (Smyrna) much much more significant. What we have history and nature:) Like Ancient Ephesus City. Im living at Kuşadası, which is between Söke and Smyrna.

[@JoseSantos-ys3rj]

Excellent! Also day 2 asking for an overview of the portuguese colonial war

[@raz562]

Great video as always, never heard of this incident before, a pair of F-102’s and F-5’s in a dogfight?? I have a current obsession of the A-6 intruder and I was wondering if you have a video of this subject in the pipeline?

[@nikostsounaka7633]

Sina Sanai. Names of Tuaf. One dead one survived in the same day. What a quinsidence.

[@jimanast3593]

2:05 F-5s aren't trainer aircrafts for the F-104s. 3:47 Was it possible for Albatross to jam the turkish radars? 12:40, 15:40 Is this a photo of Skampardonis( in front of a Mirage F1 CG)?

[@VoreAxalon]

Absolutely fascinating

[@jason-qr3mz]

There is something important happening in Greece during this period but it is not included in the video.In 1974 Greece has just came out of a 7 year military dictatorship.Thats why the military itself was a mess.And it is also one of the reasons the Turks attacked Cyprus.After the end of the dictatorship there was a possibility Cyprus would join Greece.Offcource they didn't want that...

[@SloopyT]

İf planes exploded in the air, how come all the pilots lived on for decades after the incident?

[@ΚωνσταντίνοςΜπαραχάνος]

You are forgetting that Scampardonis saw a destroyed aircraft to fall at sea.

[@alihasanabdullah7586]

And yet we have good records of both Turkish pilots surviving and going on with their life and career. I think he's correct in his analysis that there were no losses. Missiles like falcon will self destruct when they lose SARH locks, and it's likely that's what confused the Greek pilot.

[@chronozeta]

Source: just trust me bro..

[@PosthumousAddress]

You can tell NAPFATG loves the Delta Dagger because there really is not a pound for air to ground (its a cool aircraft anyway)

[@omerys58]

English subtitles would be great

[@viper_f]

*Given my background:* To date, there has been no presentation of physical evidence such as wreckage or documented rescue operations that confirms a Greek aircraft was in fact shot down during this incident. While Turkish sources may claim the downing of Greek aircraft these assertions lack independent verification and are often part of broader nationalistic Turkish narratives. Greek pilots involved in the incident such as Thomas Skamparthonis have provided detailed accounts that deny the loss of Greek aircraft. There are no news reports from the days following the incident detailing rescue operations or physical evidence of a downed Greek aircraft. Additionally, there is no documentation of any attempted rescue of the pilot or salvaging of the airframe. These factors serve as solid evidence supporting the Greek side of the story. Of course, these testimonies are crucial in understanding the Greek perspective of the engagement and are based on more substantial evidence than what the Turkish side presents. Without concrete physical evidence or independent third-party verification, the claims about a Greek aircraft being shot down remain unsubstantiated.

[@IncoGnito-ji5du]

Aaahh, how corruption connects people.

[@Archie2c]

Right before the Merge hearing where the deuces were I can imagine them goin "oh sh@@"

[@mookie2637]

The slight problem with this account is that right at the beginning of the action, an F5 is being outturned by F102s. I feel a bit dubious about that.

[@ticotube2501]

Isn't the delta configuration ideal to trade speed for turn radius?

[@johannbezuidenhout2976]

F-102 and F-106 could out turn anything else in the US inventory at the time. Hell at high altitude the F-106 could out turn the F-15A.

[@johannbezuidenhout2976]

@@ticotube2501 Yes the F-102 and F-106 could out turn most other fighters at the time including the F-5.

[@georgesheffield1580]

I don't

[@mookie2637]

@@georgesheffield1580 Hey, perhaps I'm wrong and apologies if so.

[@ClaraHutt]

Pair your designer cowboy hat with scuba gear for a memorable occasion.

[@r1pper_r00]

Very nice video. There are just two things you said that I have a few doubts about. To my knowledge, the F-102A didn't have a T/W advantage over the F-5A as it was much heavier, especially with a full load of Falcons, and the extra thrust was not enough to compensate for the added weight. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the F-5E (and not the F-5A) the one with the radar gunsight? Anyway, I like the topic. I've read that the turks also used the F-102 in the unusual role of ground attack aircraft.

[@MrHws5mp]

F-5A's had a radar gunsight, F-5Es had a full radar set.

[@catfood_03_4stray]

The F-5A Freedom Fighter had a LCOS gun-sight ( Lead Computed Optical Sight ), whereas the F-5E Tiger-II had both : LCOS ( to attack form behind with the enemy being anaware of his approach ) and a radar gun-sight, with the radar functioning at dogfight mode.

[@stuartclemmons3832]

The USAF certainly used the F-102 in the air to ground role. The heat seeking Falcons were fired at Vietnamese trucks and other vehicles traversing the Ho Chi Mihn trail, at night if I am correct.

[@jyy9624]

Damn Greeks have one putsch and go wild

[@MandelDutt-k6q]

Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more.

[@kevinberrien745]

Another great rare story!

[@GilesMorley-c1i]

Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other.

[@joelcueto2460]

The Delta Daggers only advantage against the F-5s is their radar, but, when it comes to close-in dogfights, those Freedom Fighters will eat those Delta Daggers every time. F-5 is the maneuverable fighter the US has until the arrival of the F-16. And it's no surprise they will bag those two F-102s, even in a one or two circle turn, those freedom fighters are so good at it. Even those F-5s only have radar guidance for their 20mm guns, once it came to dogfights this aircraft is lethal.