THE CAPTAIN IS GOD! GO AGAINST HIM AND YOUR CAREER WILL BE OVER! HOW CRM CHANGED ALL THAT

[@bromschwig]

I flew copilot for Ron Rogers on the B-727 in ORD in the early 90's. Always a joy, and he backed up his crew when it was needed. Great Captain!

[@ronrogers]

Thanks for the nice comment!

[@pi-sx3mb]

Yep. The bad old days. Back when SOP's were more or less suggestions along the lines of, "If it's not too much trouble, can you try not to crash?" Don't miss that one bit. Recently retired so I feel like I have some amnesty here, but back in the '80's I'm a new-hire on probation wrenching on the 727. I also have a military background, and you did what you're told unless it'll clearly kill someone without cause. So we're flying with one of those cantankerous God Captains and he's getting annoyed that the flight attendants aren't answering his chime to get a coke or whatever. He tells me "Go get me a coke and see what's going on back there." I go back to the forward galley and can see down the aisle that all 4 FA's are hanging out in the aft galley having a chitchat. I go back up, give him his beverage, and tell him what's going on. Now he's pissed. He says: Him: Here's what we're gonna do. (I have a feeling this wasn't his first time). You and you (pointing at the FO and myself) go get in the forward lav." Us: "You mean together???" Him: "JUST DO IT." So off we go not knowing what the heck he has planned, which is this: Once we're out of sight in the lav, he chimes the FA's about 4 times to get their attention. They finally pick up this time and he says, "YOU GOTTA GET UP HERE QUICK!!!" and hangs up. Then he unstraps and goes and hides behind the coats hanging between the FE panel and the bulkhead (recall the 727 had no autothrottle, just a rudimentary autopilot mostly for altitude hold). The first FA to open the cockpit door is greeted by the sight of an empty cockpit with just two yokes gently moving back and forth holding heading and altitude. I'm pretty sure the entire airplane heard her scream. Can you imagine how fast we'd all get fired for doing that today? CRM is a GOOD thing.

[@unknownrider3071]

My briefing to an FO always started with "The only reason I'm sitting here and you're sitting there is I hired on before you did. I'm not God's gift to aviation or anything else as far as I know, so lets be safe, stay out of trouble, and have as much fun as we can stand. That really got them to relax!

[@redfire122]

I've been an airline mechanic for 36 years now. 12 years at NWA and 25 at my current carrier. In those years I can only think of one time I had to go nose to nose with a obnoxious captain. While working at NWA I was doing contract maintenance on a TWA aircraft. The older captain wanted me to do something improper regarding the paperwork. Basically wanted me to fix something without a logbook entry. After I explained that I could not do that he refused to give me the logbook. "I told him I don't care if you have to call grey hound to get these passengers to St. Louis. But if you want to fly this airplane you WILL give me your logbook." His face turned red and he jammed the logbook at me. I felt sorry for the first officer because by the look on his face it was going to be a very very long flight leg. On the flip side I remember a NWA captain whose v-speed book fell and accidently turned off his radar while on the takeoff roll into thunderstorms surrounding the airport. The captain aborted the take off and while taxiing back to the gate found the problem. When he got back to the gate I told him that after I inspect the CRT I suspect I will find a loose BNC connector. Surprise, that is what I found and signed his log accordingly. I think I made a friend that day 😀

[@ronrogers]

I like your style!

[@redfire122]

@@ronrogersI worked at a small station for NWA (Indianapolis). I think me and the flight crews were on the same page. They wanted to get home and I wanted to get back to my cup of coffee. Getting them over the fence was our mutual goal 😂 Another funny one was I was called to the cockpit. The f/o told the captain the APU wouldn’t start. The captain must not have slept well because he took it out on me. I wish I had a picture of his face & the f/o’s when I reached up and flipped the DC9s battery on. He was on ground power. The F/o turned white as I shut the door and returned to my coffee. You see things at the airport you will not experience anywhere else.

[@KennethMixson]

There is a joke circulating around that goes like this. A British Airways mechanic passes away. Upon being met at the Pearly Gates, he is asked by St. Peter what is his most heartfelt desire. "To NEVER be around any BA captains!" was his emphatic response. A few weeks later, while relaxing in the Angel's lounge who should walk in but a British Airways captain in all his regalia. Furious, the mechanic marches off to find St. Peter to complain. St. Peter calms the man by saying, "There are no BA captains in Heaven. That was God... he just likes to pretend that he is one."

[@N.California]

N.Cal: Not a pilot but listen to other channels like "Captain Joe," "Mentour Pilot," and "74 Gear" and I think you have found a niche in this market of professional pilot You Tubers, with you military and professional career experiences and stories. It's entertaining and informative, and I am drawn to clicking on your videos when I see them on my screen. I enjoy them and you are subconsciously becoming a trusted part of that you tube flying community of the 3 mentioned above. Thanks and looking forward to more of you videos.

[@Parkhill57]

As a crusty old MSgt my digs were from the radar console to the toilet in the back, which included the Galley. Always turned the galley fridge on and cranked-up the ovens on the ground. The 2Lt co-pilot see's me, panics and shuts it off, and said I was trying to kill everyone. I flicked it back on, pointed at my wings and said: "See this star, you don't have one.", "See this toilet-seat (wreath) you don't have one!" Told him to get out of my office. The Captain came back later and told me, "easy on my Lt sport, or you'll be getting your jump wings."

[@kimcooper4751]

Using wife's phone today not her opinions Oh how I can relate to that unfortunately I ended up trading some hands on the Lt. Our Colonel came up and was stupified his mouth open and just shook his head and said Sgt. I can't have you beating up new Lt.s I said he was and nope don't care didn't happen and can't happen again understand we both like kids yes sir this Lt. became an excellent officer well liked and regarded by officers and enlisted he just needed some guidance but he went into the Coast Guard after his mandatory term a VMI grad they were the best officers I served with had to edit should say why it happened he was just flipping switches, pulling breakers, changing parameters,just touching stuff my stuff his reasoning was I have to learn them uhm what and he took the ham n eggs c- rat that alone started fights and spaghetti

[@erictaylor5462]

I saw an interview with Captain Haynes where it was clear that he blamed himself for the deaths that resulted from the crash. I seemed really really despondent on this, so I wrote a letter to him. I mentioned the interview and quoted what he had said, then I pointed out that every single person in that airplane died the moment that engine blew up. I said nothing he had done or failed to do killed those 112 passengers. However, his skills and his talents saved the lives of 184 people. I don't know if he ever even saw the letter (I sent it CO of United Airlines). He never wrote back, but in a later interview he did say he had blamed himself for the deaths, but someone pointed out that what he had actually done saved the survivors. Maybe he read my letter, but I think it's more likely that someone else pointed out what I had pointed out. My dad was a CFI and he instilled in me a real sense that the pilot (or the driver of a car) is responsible for the safety of his passengers. It doesn't matter who was at fault in an accident, so I understood why the man blamed himself for the deaths. But it broke my heart to see him blaming himself when he had, in fact, saved as many lives as he could.

[@ronrogers]

Agreed!

[@fencegecko]

A private pilot but working as a flight mechanic here. I watched three different captains try to kill us through his action propelled by arrogance. CRM is the greatest program ever.

[@bartsolari5035]

3 are needed in the cockpit to assure a tie breaker...

[@RoamingAdhocrat]

@@bartsolari5035 I thought the ties were all clip-on?

[@jimcear1766]

I was a navigator on a B-52G during the 1970s. A crossover AC came from being a T-37 IP. He was literally an unbalanced human being. They put new ACs with experienced copilots. On our final flight with this AC he was going to hit the approach lights if our copilot hadn’t slapped his hands off the controls ( thank you Dave B. for saving our lives) AC went apoplectic, totally berserk in the cockpit. The rest of us went into the Commanders office and literally dropped our wings on his desk . Told him we would him never fly with him again even if our careers were over.

[@nightshift5201]

What happened to him?

[@Parkhill57]

They crashed an AWACS in Vegas when they put two pilots with less than 300 hours each after the big RIF in the 90's. Tried landing on the nose-wheel first and half the plane burned-up on the runway. They hauled it across the base and disassembled what was left for parts. Sadly it had just been upgraded with a glass cockpit.

[@terryboyer1342]

@@nightshift5201 Prolly ended up as Secretary of the Air Force.

[@patrickflohe7427]

@@terryboyer1342 -prolly?

[@terryboyer1342]

@@patrickflohe7427 Yes

[@DavidW27]

One of the first research publications on what we now call CRM was "The Human Factor in Aircraft Accidents" in 1969 by David Beaty (ex-RAF and BOAC). At the time he was castigated by many of his fellow for it and suggesting they were fallible.

[@chrisscott4896]

Thanks for that layman's guide to the history of CRM, Ron! I had a UK-based airline career between 1967 and the end of 2001. Had been a sponsored cadet, so never in the military. Early on in my career, a few of the skippers on Dakotas (C-47s) were nearly old enough to be my grandfather. Some were brilliant - one or two were bad news. Some followed SOPs - others did their own thing. As you know, that can be confusing - particularly for rookies like I was. Later, sharing VC10 and B707 cockpits with captains and F/Es generally much older than I was, I noticed a tendency sometimes to be left out of decision-making conversations. That was partly due to the physical layout of a three-crew cockpit, where the guy in the L/H seat could turn face to face with the engineer more easily than I could, but also because of my age and relative inexperience. But trying to leave the P2 out of the loop would be unacceptable today, thank goodness. Got my first command - on the BAC 1-11 in 1979. That coincided with an unusual hiatus in my airline, in which the retirement age for line skippers had been raised to age 57, but with the option to continue to age 60 in the R/H seat. The interpersonal skills of those guys - some of whom were WW2 vets - varied between good and poor. Guess which one I got on my first line trip in command! And the weather was challenging... I think we all got our first formal CRM course around 1981/2. As you suggest, the dinosaur minority protested that at best it was not necessary for them and at worst it was an insult. Ordinary Joes like myself ground our teeth at some of the stuff but, overall, welcomed it and learnt from it.

[@justincase5272]

Excellent video! The one statistic I recall from the early 90s is how CRM cut the deaths per million air miles travelled in half, and both the stats (data) and the graphs backed that up. Because it take aircrews to actually listen to one another, it saved our crew's bacon on at least three occasions throughout my career. Good stuff!

[@ChiIeboy]

Thumbs up for putting that male attendant in his place, firmly and decisively.

[@ThePinkus]

Now, CRM will make an interesting study for me even if I'll never work on an airplane.

[@johnolsen7073]

CRM is a great program. I always briefed a new F/O or F/A this way. I tell the F/A you have my ear always, your issues are my issues. If you see anything or are concerned about anything please let us know. To the F/O's I alway say If you see me doing anything that you are not liking speak up. You have the ability to express your concerns so please do so. Because I can screw up with the best of them, you are here to stop me doing that. It sure cuts the tension out of a hard day. I found that communication was greatly improved.

[@oldftrpilot2593]

Ron, enjoy your presentation. As an airline FO ( too many years in the military) who flew heavies to fighters, I was a bit surprised about the airline thing. For the most part, the Captains at Continental were pretty darn good and wise. I flew because I liked looking out the front window and mostly had a lot of fun. Since I started with the majors at age 41 I never made captain but I was happy cause I did that back in the day. Keep up the good work. If I had not retired early I might have flown with you at United, and I think you would have had fun with Seagull from UPT 71-04.

[@ronrogers]

Thanks and sorry we did not get to fly together!

[@erictaylor5462]

Yea, a chief pilot flying as captain caused the worst disaster in aviation history taking off without clearance. His co-pilot didn't believe they were clear and tried to stop him, but this was not just any captain, this was the boss himself. In the end I bet he wished he had risked getting fired, because he ended up losing his job anyway. No, he wasn't fired... Well I guess their was quite a bit of fire involved actually. But no, he lost his job because you can't get a medical weaver if you are dead.

[@RoamingAdhocrat]

...just how long has "you can't get a medical waiver if you're dead" been echoing in your head, because that sounds like something an instructor would say to a young trainee and then stays with them forever :D

[@patrickflohe7427]

Can you say KLM?

[@DavidHuggins-ve1jm]

PH-BUF

[@CarlJay-ry8mr]

Apparently the flight engineers on both planes voiced their concerns to Captains involved on both planes, but were also not listened to either

[@frozen_lava]

Hello Captain, love your videos. The FA on the far right on the “stock image” you showed is an instructor for initial training. I had her for a few classes and she’s awesome! Take care 😊

[@ronrogers]

Thanks for the info!

[@torgeirbrandsnes1916]

Great vlog as always! You need to correct one thing. The captain of the DC-8 got a number of warnings and hints about low fuel status. Macarthur Job series of books Air Disaster are brilliant. The entire com. log is on print. I went to flight school at NAIA at MYR and my ground school instructor was a former KC-135 captain, Dwight Roach. Loved his work. I still have many of wise words with me. One is: Know where you are and what comes next. Ass flt instr was Frank Nicholas. He is a FO 777 ORD based I have heard. Why am I not a pilot? Well, I am born with Cerbral Palsy. All my life I was told that you can not fly an airplane due to CP. I have a 120h TT and 40h PIC. If you cant shut people up, make sure they talk about you…. Lol! Keep up the good work! Be safe!

[@CarlJay-ry8mr]

Maybe consider yourself lucky in a way sir. I'm sorry to hear about your condition. Watching videos like these shows how dangerous flying can be. Or how dangerous flying can be flying with an unsafe pilot!

[@EricCoop]

The maritime world had similar issues, so (before I ever went to sea) the maritime industry borrowed heavily from CRM and created Bridge Resource Managment (BRM). Having been through the course several times during my naval career, I can say with certainty that I believe in it. Ships still trade paint with other ships or with the bottom or with piers or with buoys, but it happens less now.

[@CapitalismSuxx]

Did you see the El Faro sinking, from channel Brick Immortar? That Capt was a crusty old chap who didn't even listen to the weather service.

[@EricCoop]

@@CapitalismSuxx El Faro was a failure of CRM but also a failure of procedural compliance writ large. They basically repeated what happened on SS Marine Electric with respect to setting and maintaining watertight integrity. My point is that since BRM, mishaps, while they happen, in the merchant marines and fleets of developed countries, happen less often. Since the Exxon Valdez disaster, less drinking happens at sea as well.

[@stevenshanofski6801]

Great analysis!! We have come a long way. The best captains would always say if you see something you aren’t comfortable with let me know. Went a long way to get everyone comfortable and all working in the same direction.

[@fencegecko]

The FE was monitoring the fuel state but couldn’t get the captain to listen.

[@CarlJay-ry8mr]

With out having read about the 1978 D C - 8 crash, that's what came to mind. What was the flight engineer saying about the fuel supply. I have noticed in some crashes even when someone is voicing a concern, they are still ignored!

[@davef.2329]

Avianca B-707 at JFK 1989.

[@CarlJay-ry8mr]

@@davef.2329 yes sir , another example

[@IslandCreek]

Back in my flying days, for value jet..New crew members had to endure what we called the gauntlet.. where all "respected " crew members lined up in the isles and seats and the new crew would crawl on their hands and knees wearing dry suits and we would beat the bejesus out of them with rubber hoses. It was so funny.. good times. Great video. I love the content

[@fencegecko]

The title of the video is spot on. I saw this first hand and close up. A friend took the airplane away from the operating captain. He may have saved everyone’s life but he didn’t fly for that company again.

[@CarlJay-ry8mr]

That took a lot of courage. It can be hard to do what he did.

[@libertine5606]

I remember being a reserve firefighter sitting in the lobby for my "Chief's oral" to get hired full time. The way it worked was they would interview three and hire two. If you were passed over twice you were out. Since we were all reserves they were going straight down the list. I knew I was number three so I wouldn't get hired this time but next time. I was a little worried because you never knew when they could have a hiring freeze and the list could expire. The second guy, the guy just above me on the list, came out of the interview and started talking to me. He said his interview went great. That he explained why his captain was wrong and he was right. That the Chiefs completely understood the situation. He then went on about what had happened. As he is explaining this I had a "inner monologue". Oh, my God I am a professional firefighter! And this poor sap has no idea that he will never be a firefighter at this department! Probably never anywhere in the County! I worked and retired after 34 years and that poor sap probably got laid off as a super market assistant manager.

[@alexmelia8873]

Thanks for sharing your stories!

[@leedaero]

The owner of a small commuter airline in Hawaii told me once that the purpose of the sterile cockpit rule below 10,000 feet was to stop the captain and first officer from arguing and fighting.

[@gcorriveau6864]

It didn't take long as an airline captain to realize that flying the 'nuts and bolts' (or is it now amps and volts?) of a particular aircraft was actually the easier part of the job. Managing the human (aka 'carbon based units'- including myself!) was continually the more challenging and rewarding task to ensure the desired safety and service standards would be met. Thanks for your stories and history. Very enjoyable.

[@peterlovett5841]

Regarding the United DC-8 crash, the flight engineer was monitoring the fuel state and, I think, twice brought it to the captain's attention but he just acknowledged the warning and went on trying to correct the landing light indicator. The FE and FO should have been more assertive. Another crash that caused "cockpit resource management" to become "crew resource management" was the British Midland 737-400 crash where after an engine failure the cockpit crew shut down the wrong engine. The cabin crew could see which engine had failed but did not inform the cockpit. When the crew increased thrust on what they thought was the good engine for landing nothing happened and the aircraft hit an embankment short of the runway.

[@patrickflohe7427]

Not totally. The cabin crew told the cockpit crew that the wrong engine had failed / was in flames. The pilots failed to trust their instruments, shutting the wrong engine down. They were then depending on an engine that was making grossly insufficient power.

[@giancarlogarlaschi4388]

I had to humble myself beyond what ever I had imagined before in my career ...to save my future. Now some F/Os are Very Selfish and Arrogant. Me : -" I don't have the Right to Risk your Job ...but this is Vice Versa ". So I became Very Military Style with these guys . You just Can't be talking to Anybody on your cellphone when we are preparing for a 15 hrs flight with the Mechanics / Pursers /Dispatchers interrupting and All the menial Important Task of FMC / Performance / Load sheet / Runway change and ...you are one of many airliners departing at the same time. We Need to be a Team , Man ! Or we will be at " The Office " , trying to explain the unexplainable. It's EASY to Understand , OK ? Commander ( Ret ).

[@georgew.5639]

Here is how it works for me. At the end of the day I wish to go comfortably to sleep in my own bed. Not in a hospital bed. Or lying in a morgue. And! And I utterly hate when anyone puts my life at risk! That is intolerable! And that is how it is.

[@SJR_Media_Group]

Former Boeing Everett... Ron awesome insight. Not sure if it was 'good old days' but Captains threw their rank around and sexism was added on top of being bossy god in cockpit. CRM took time to implement. Different airlines had more systemic disfunction than others. Also, different cultures from different countries had their own spin on overbearing Captain sitting in the left hand seat. Today, entire crew is judged for open communications. Lost count of how many planes went down because everyone was scared to voice their concern to the Captain. Guess being dead and right just doesn't cut it anymore.

[@iain3411]

Was in the USN from '74 to '79 on the USS Rogers DD-876 in Portland. I remember the United jet going down.

[@grantsutherland6798]

I know what you mean. 50 years ago I was learning to fly and I had a little short dumpy instructor who made me feel "uneasy". I had terrible trouble trying to break through the barrier to go solo. Ultimately I managed to do it but I won't tell you how... just to say I was "more relaxed than normal". That taught me a lesson in life. Never ever make your student feel uneasy

[@kevinfoley8105]

I really like your manner and professional demeanor in your presentations. I look forward to seeing you analyze aircraft accidents, thank you for your work!

[@ronrogers]

Thank you!

[@phoneticau]

British Airways back in the day had some bad Captains used rank & seniority like RAF 1st & 2nd officers treated very bad

[@patrickflohe7427]

This happens around the world, in many airlines.

[@eddieraffs5909]

Ron your stories are really informative and entertaining. I enjoy them immensely however it's your Garrison Keillor style narration that puts the videos over the top. Many thanks and keep 'em coming.

[@ronrogers]

Wow, thanks

[@flyerbob124]

At one time in my airline career I worked for a airline handling company that was Asiana’s freight handling company at LAX. When the crew showed up at the terminal the Captain walked ahead of the other crew members and he was the only one who talked. It was quite obvious that the rest of the crew was scared of the captain and would never question his decisions. This appeared to be the normal for this airline and I’m sure this creates problems for them.

[@bobbys2160]

I flew with a few gems at UAL who were difficult at best....Those memories hopefully are a thing of the past

[@Absaalookemensch]

In military medical, a new enlisted surgical technician in beginning training stated during surgery that the lap pad count was incorrect. The O-6 surgeon said the E-2 was wrong. The E-2 stated he was certain that the count was incorrect. The colonel then ordered a recount, and the E-2 was correct. The colonel surgeon thanked and commended the E-2 for sticking to his guns. This is told in military medical training to this day. A single retained lap sponge will cause an internal infection, requiring surgery to pull the sponge out.

[@ronrogers]

Great story! I heard that the airline CRM did a lot of good when applied to the medical profession (another possible "god" complex arena).

[@Absaalookemensch]

@@ronrogers Why Hospitals Should Fly: The Ultimate Flight Plan to Patient Safety and Quality Care Aviation type Patient Safety, required at all facilities, is modeled around the aviation industry. It has saved countless lives.

[@petrairene]

Congrats for 5000 viewers. Hope to congratulate you to 50k!

[@ronrogers]

If I'm still alive by then, please do!

[@petrairene]

@@ronrogers Ha, it's already 10 more in the last hour since I wrote. 🙂

[@twentyrothmans7308]

I'm on furlough now since Jan 1 2023, and have been down in the dumps about it (I'm not a pilot, just a student PPL). Your story about your furlough picked me up - others have it worse off. Please keep your stories coming, Ron. We're listening, and people in the future will listen.

[@ronrogers]

Thanks so much! Yes the furlough was hard, but looking back on it, I gained things I never would have otherwise!

[@glenwoodriverresidentsgrou136]

Hang in there. Flying has always been cyclical, but once you make the grade you can have a stable career. It’s worth a few bumps in the beginning.

[@twentyrothmans7308]

@@glenwoodriverresidentsgrou136 Thank you for your encouraging comments! I'm past it for flying for a living, just trying to get your PPL on weekends in London is the hard part 🙂I can assure you, I'd never make the grade. What you say is true, though, a friend of mine is 747/320 rated - it looked dire for him two years ago. Now, he's fine.

[@icepoop20]

I'm loving your videos Ron. I'm a commercial pilot in training and I certainly look up to you and enjoy your stories.

[@ronrogers]

Cool, thanks

[@scottgeorge50]

Great story!

[@ronrogers]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Hawker900XP]

Great channel 🎉

[@ronrogers]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@boeingav8tr525]

Ron two things come to mind. First, with great power comes great responsibility. And as a captain I’m cognizant of that. But the flip side is have a little respect for the experience in the left seat. I can tell you, some of the arrogance of some of our new hires, well, it’s also shocking.

[@jimjoe9945]

Read the transcript on the portland crash. The FE mentioned fuel state several times. The captain was preoccupied and not listening.

[@ds2112]

I remember seeing that same video at Air Wisconsin flight dispatch ground school in the late 90s; I remember the screens were in yellow...

[@aviationworld8939]

Ron, another great presentation thank you. I would love for you to do an episode on United Flight 811.

[@ronrogers]

Great suggestion!

[@leilanurena]

Ron, great video on crm. my comment has little to do with that, except to say i wish i could go back to 1952 aboard a Connie passung FL160 and watch them perform the blower shift❤

[@onkelfabs6408]

The high and the mighty is actually an example for good crew management. The captain was about to lose his nerves and the crew managed to deal with it. It is a movie though.

[@pongokamerat8601]

Great episode. CRM is supposed to make aviation more safe, and efficient. I do however know about one company that is completely clueless when it comes to CRM. The Captain's main focus is to be a feelgood-coordinator. Pilots can do whatever they want as long as they themselves are of the opinion that it is safe. Trying to follow procedures and adhere to regulations is a NONO! Just adhere to the norms, which are plentiful. Copilots can write the most insane reports on a captain that critiques them and tries to adhere to "the books" the way you are supposed to. The captain is defenceless, it is the copilot that is right! Glad I got out....

[@OjDidit7700]

More crm stories please!

[@grahamstevenson1740]

That DC-8 fuel exhaustion accident in Portland ??? always really perplexed me. It seemed like the Captain was overly obsessed about the gear and no-one else was willing to tell him that the fuel was running out. Yet he was given the fuel in thousands of pounds but it seemingly didn't register with him how bad it had got. Very odd.

[@ronrogers]

Exactly!

[@That_Ultimate_Camry]

The unfortunate combination of target fixation and task saturation. The captain had overloaded himself by fixating on the gear indicator so much so that he completely blocked out the other vital warning signs from both his instruments and crew until it was already too late. There is another term for it but I can't for the life of me remember what that term is, but it's fascinating stuff. What's even sadder is that Capt. McBroom was not a God Captain like some of the pilots Ron talked about, and was "a broken man plagued by guilt over his role in the accident" quoted by family and passengers. He never intended to ignore his crew and was just trying to do what he thought was right.

[@CapitalismSuxx]

@@That_Ultimate_Camry Yes, I saw a docu where Mr McBroom was interviewed and he was really really sad about all those people he had in his care. It's weird that he seemed like such a nice person, yet the other pilots in the cockpit didn't assert themselves anyway.

[@chuckcarmichael7835]

Growing up we had a family friend who flew with UAL from the late 60's to mid 80's. He passed away recently, but I remember him saying he never upgraded from Flight Engineer during his entire 22 year career. Was this rare? I realize there may be a lot to the back story that I am unaware, but thought I would ask. Great videos.

[@pongokamerat8601]

Not all Flight Engineers had a pilots license.

[@ronrogers]

There were professional flight engineers and some pilots, who unfortunately sat so long in the FE seat due to airline stagnation, that they had difficulty upgrading.

[@jiyushugi1085]

Seems like a dream job when you see the fancy shirt and cool airplane, but airplane flying is high-stress job. I've known co-pilots who spent their entire careers in the right seat to avoid the stress that comes with that fourth stripe.

[@JamesMCrutchley]

I have worked various jobs at construction sites since 2014. One day I was working as first aid. The CSO was offsite getting training that day. That was why. Was called in. I had been walking around making my hourly health and safety check. I had been asked to look for any issues and bring them to any sub trade supervisors as they came up. I walked around the corner of the site and saw a hammer embedded in the pavement. Looking up I saw n are around 30 floors up where they were doing outside work with no debris protection below them. I immediately told two traffic controllers to block off and close the sidewalk now. About 2 min later the site super came around and was about to start yelling when he saw another tool impact the ground about 3 feerpt away. Anyways I found enough issues that the site was shut down for about a week. That was just the first of many issues found.

[@davidculp6266]

Did you notice that after the glass cockpit airplanes came out the 727 served as a refuge for difficult captains?

[@johnrubino6098]

JaySantiago was superlative in ProStans at UA

[@lazerbeam608]

18 minutes to pop the chutes on the Japan Airlines A350 accident. Word is the FAs were hesitant to take the leader until told to evacuate. They hesitated for 18 min.

[@tori8380]

What do pilots think of the uniforms (Pan Am borrowed from the navy) Do you always have to wear the hat?

[@ronrogers]

Hats now are mostly optional

[@fleetwin1]

I watched a few videos about the DC8 running out of fuel, I believe the Captain's name was "Broome". He survived the crash and used to go to the survivors' reunions. Not quite sure how I felt about that, I would have "guessed" that the survivors would have had a negative opinion about Captain Broome, but who knows. That mistake must have been pretty tough to live with.

[@CapitalismSuxx]

Capt McBroom was forever devastated by that crash and in the docu I watched some of the survivors actually felt bad for him, he was that crushed by his role in the tragedy.

[@davidbaldwin1591]

I giggle when Mentor Pilot tells about today's pilots calling the 737-200 (Classic) the 737 Jurassic 🦕

[@joemeyer6876]

My Name is Joe Meyer, not the TWA Joe Meyer that was on the blacklist. It was jumping through hoops every time I jumpseated, but hire dates always saved me. I never found out his history, I didnt want to know. Personally, I have 3,000+ as a FE on the C-141B, and the only Captains/ACs who scared me, made me watch em like a hawk, those were Academy Grads.

[@joemeyer6876]

PS: UAL has a binder with the name of every aviator who scabbed since 1941. I guess its on their electronic notepad now.

[@jcheck6]

@@joemeyer6876 Joe it wasn't just UAL with the scab list, most airlines had it including mine. Btw wasn't your Clay Lacy a scab? I was a "570" that went elsewhere.

[@joemeyer6876]

. . . . Since 1941. . . . Damn!

[@Bobm-kz5gp]

Another good one, I was hired in 1986 by AAL, us new hires were were B scale pilots, I went from 40K a year in the Army to 18k a year, this was a 5 year hassle getting B scale pay then after 5 years we started getting pilots pay. One of our Captains at DCA hated us B scalers an even wrote the Union head that chimpanzee’s would be better pilots. Well the union posted that letter and just about every B scaler put him on their no fly list. I didn’t do that and I ended up the only copilot that would fly with him. On our first flight he apologized about his letter and we had a good month together. Some of our B scale pilots had been Thunder Bird pilots and Blue Angel pilots that he put in that B scale monkey pot. He retired several months later. I was based at DCA.

[@ronrogers]

Great story! Thanks!

[@stephencannon3140]

The major crash before that was the “Disaster at Tenerife”……KLM/PanAm in March 1977.

[@johnsutcliffe3209]

I saw a doco on like 60 minutes back in the 80s or early 90s about pilots with the "right stuff" and seat of your pants flying. A lot of these guys were ww2 vets or had ww2 vets as the men they looked up to as juniors. I guess that was about the time of CRM introduction and was a doco promoting it.

[@fencegecko]

A show should be developed about the hospitality suite at Cree hotels. I was a B-757 mc instructor and for a lot of traveling. Sometimes I would overnight at crew hotels. I carried my overhead projector, transparencies, student materials in two pilot chart cases. Seeing this apparent crew less pilot the front desk would welcome me and tell me where the pilot ‘hospitality suite’ was. I went finding drinking and drunk pilots.I got a beer and left wondering at what time they were to fly.

[@patrickflohe7427]

Maybe they had finished flying?

[@68orangecrate26]

250 to the marker baby….

[@ronrogers]

Been there, done that!

[@68orangecrate26]

@@ronrogers I kinda figured. Great presentations…😎👨‍✈️

[@jamesmurray3948]

Who you flying with today? "Barberpole"

[@68orangecrate26]

@@jamesmurray3948 I don’t advertise… But, “if you ain’t clackin’, you’re slackin’”😆

[@jcheck6]

@@68orangecrate26 Something a Green Book (ex Republic) pilot would say.

[@thies7831]

Airline running and recruiting from military have been bound for or involved in a lot of crashes. QANTAS is among the safest, as anyone up front can stop a flight, meaning really a departure if something doesn't look o.k. Better staying down, than following instructions, started in a grumpy egotistical mood. Any foreman or supervisor in any job should not be followed if their orders are illogic. Accidents cannot be reversed.

[@CarlJay-ry8mr]

I know Captains have been at fault at crashes. Were there ever any cases of co-pilots who were also dangerous? Some of them later became the captains we are talking about,I guess?

[@MrKylehornsey]

Okay CRM has not always been 'in vogue' but am I the only one who has a problem with senior management such as chief pilots (and aircraft manufacturers) not being held accountable for criminal negligence that causes the death of many innocent passengers?

[@glenwoodriverresidentsgrou136]

The JAL crash was a result of a faulty repair of the aft pressure bulkhead that had been damaged by a tail strike. The repair suffered a fatigue failure and the bulkhead failed. Pressurized air then went up the vertical stabilizer and it was blown off the plane. The AC then just had wing sweep and differential thrust for yaw control. It developed into a series of Dutch rolls that became uncontrollable. I believe everyone was killed. What is the story about the FA who thought something was wrong? How was this documented if everyone perished?

[@shoersa]

Cockpit voice recorder?

[@ronrogers]

Good question and I do not remember for sure how this was determined. Would have to go back and read the accident report again.

[@johnsutcliffe3209]

I saw a video once stating that F As in previous flights had reported a hissing noise coming from the back.

[@comlbbeau]

...and try to explain to that dictatorial captain that the cockpit is now non-smoking.

[@jamesmurray3948]

Difference between a 727 crew and a DC-9 crew: DC-9 takes off with Captain flying, FO checks in with departure and departure asks "say type aircraft." FO says we are a DC-9. 727 takes off with Captain flying and gets asked the same question. FO looks over to the Captain and Captain says "tell him we are a 727". 727 Chicago based Captain brief of FE: "Don't touch nuttin you don't know nuttin about". That FE later upgrades to DC-9 FO and first line flight asks the Captain how he wants to divide the overhead panel. Captain says: "If you see something that needs doing, do it."

[@patrickflohe7427]

Huh?

[@jamesmurray3948]

Huh, Huh?@@patrickflohe7427

[@georgeforall]

So.. what your saying is CRM does not extend to he concerns of flight attendants?

[@ronrogers]

No, CRM means the Captain listens and seeks input where necessary. I listened and then made my decision. CRM does not mean everybody is the Captain.

[@georgeforall]

@@ronrogers Got it!

[@jiyushugi1085]

The JAL 747 crash you mentioned with the blown pressure bulkhead was fully loaded and killed 540 pax and crew, all but four. The bulkhead had been incorrectly repaired (They did the cheap and easy way instead of the correct way, but who made the call on that repair has never been revealed.) Later, they set up the same scenario in the sim and no one could save it. (Yes, they tried asymmetric power, gear, etc.) I was living in Japan at the time and it was a traumatic event for the entire country.

[@chrisscott4896]

Time being limited, I imagine, Ron didn't relate what happened after the pressure bulkhead took out all the hydraulics on that B747. Re the Sioux City DC-10 accident, the situation was comparable. I guess the partially successful outcome on the DC-10 was made possible by that type's different engine configuration from that of the B747, i.e., the #2 (centre) engine and its thrust line being significantly above the fuselage, with the other two engines - like the B747's four - being underneath the wing. Anyone who has flown jet aeroplanes with underwing engines and conventional (non-FBW) flight controls has experienced the big changes in pitch trim with thrust changes. So, if the nose is dropping on a B747, adding thrust can correct it. But the extra thrust is likely also to result in a speed increase, which you may not want. Similarly, if the nose is rising, reducing thrust will correct it. But the speed is likely to drop, which could be dangerous. So, you are likely to end up with a phugoidal (sort of rollercoaster) flight path. If the trimmable horizontal stabiliser has become stuck by loss of hydraulics at cruising speed, the imperative to slow the aeroplane down to a survivable approach speed and maintain control of pitch is likely to be impossible. On the DC-10, thrust changes on the centre engine made much less difference to the pitch trim, but an increase in thrust will gently lower the nose and reducing it will - if anything - cause the nose to rise. That's the opposite effect from changing thrust on the underwing engines (#1 and #3). That feature of the DC-10's engine layout enabled a highly competent (and cool-headed) crew to control the aircraft in pitch sufficiently well to get it on to an approach at a reasonable (high) speed for a flapless landing at Sioux City. But when they throttled back all three engines before touchdown - presumably to give themselves a half-decent chance of not running off the far end of the runway - the nose dropped, hit the runway first and the aircraft cartwheeled. That ability to control both pitch and speed by clever adjustments in thrust would not have been available to the unfortunate crew of the JAL B747. And the same would apply to nearly all airliners coming off production lines today.

[@fencegecko]

The repair was accomplished by the Boeing AOG team. They simply made a mistake. I watched a 707 and a 827 repaired by them in Saudi Arabia. They worked magic on those two airplanes. Stop shitting on maintenance. We are the reason why airplanes fly.

[@patrickflohe7427]

They did not do the “cheap and easy repair”, a mistake was made. I knew people in the A.O.G. group, and everyone was shook-up about it. By the way, at least one JAL person was involved in the repair, and signed-off on it. Don’t pretend you know what happened there. The first link in the chain was a JAL pilot who drug the tail, and damaged the aft fuselage, including the pressure bulkhead.

[@jiyushugi1085]

@@patrickflohe7427Now that enough time has passed it would be interesting to hear the whole story. An article I read in the Japanese press (I can read Japanese) hinted that the repair method was chosen in order to save time and get the plane back on line, but that the method was not correct. If true, did JAL ask for the quicker method? Interesting to hear that JAL signed off on it. Another issue was the fact that JAL was using the plane on short domestic legs, meaning that the frequency of pressurization cycles was very high. In any case, it would be good to know what 'the mistake' was. And yeah, without the tail strike, no accident. A terrible tragedy for all involved.

[@rogermatheny5512]

Now briefings and emotion rule the day. Being a pilot is WAY down the list

[@RandomUser25122]

Didn’t the bossy old school pilots complain and revolt against CRM because they’d feel their God like powers were being revoked (they were & for a good reason).

[@ronrogers]

Absolutely! And most of them took positions on professional standards so if you had a complaint about a pilot, which one (on prof standards) did you want to talk to!

[@takamadson]

Captain: "Well, I'll just draw an imaginary ↕️ line down the middle of the cockpit. You don't touch anything on my side of the line and I won't touch anything to the right of the line. So, that pretty much takes care of the briefing..." 🤣🤣🤣

[@bartsolari5035]

you were much too kind with the 2nd FA. with the statement he made, that FA should have been off the flight. attitudes such as his are communicalbe diseases.

[@JackHowe32]

Hey Ron I got a question, how many total flight hours do you have?

[@ronrogers]

23,000+

[@JackHowe32]

I am just starting flight school but I hope one day I will be able to say I have as many flight hours as you. But even more importantly I hope I will have some amazing stories to tell like you do!@@ronrogers

[@gandalf87264]

Stop bragging about your age. I'm not much younger than you are. Just give me a few more years and I will catch up to you.

[@ronrogers]

I bought a Corvette just before turning 70, so that is my midlife crisis. Given that, I should live to 140!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@gandalf87264]

@@ronrogers Yes, you showed it to us. 650 HP????? That is very impressive. The company I work for has a 60 ton truck. The horse only has a 550 HP Cummins Diesel engine and that thing hauls around pretty nicely, so that is one impressive Corvette you have. Not many people can boast that their car has a bigger engine than a truck has.