The Collapse of the American Locomotive Company | Steam to Diesel to Failure | History in the Dark

[@moosecat]

ALCO definitely made some iconic steam locomotives; it's a crying shame that they couldn't get their act together on their diesel prime movers until it was too late.

[@Voucher765]

Like the Hudsons and Mohawks for the NYC.

[@Voucher765]

@@Finn-Windu Also their Niagaras too

[@chickey333]

I remember the military used to use ALCO diesels in their ships and other devices. I once trained on an ALCO diesel in engine repair school.

[@chickey333]

@Finn Windu That was over 40 years ago. All I remember is that it was gray large and I never saw one again after that. I think they had already decommissioned them at the time.

[@stanfischer6175]

Alco is known for its greatest steam success, the Union Pacific Big Boy. In a span of two decades, they made their greatest diesel failure, the C855, also for the Union Pacific.

[@nothing12299]

ALCO's CONTRIBUTION TOWARDS OUR INDIAN RAILWAYS AFTER INDEPENDENCE WAS AWESOME. IT LITERALLY SHOWED OUR RAILWAY A NEW PATH❤

[@jadebullet3884]

One thing that needs to be pointed out is WWII wartime restrictions on locomotive types. During WWII EMD was only allowed to produce road units like the F series and switchers. Alco and Baldwin were only allowed to produce road switchers and switchers/steam. This is why you don't see the Geep or FA/PA until post war.

[@kristoffermangila]

Many Alco fans point to these restrictions as the "unfair" advantage EMD had, because it gave EMD an enormous opportunity to work the kinks out of the 567 engine in grueling wartime condition (not that it was needed; the 567 was an excellent engine by the time WW2 broke out), since it was used on smaller US Navy vessels and submarines, while Alco and Baldwin were unable to develop new diesel engines.

[@johnd8892]

​@@kristoffermangila I think you mean the EMD 567 engine. The 645 being a much later development version of the landmark 567.

[@kristoffermangila]

@@johnd8892 oops! Correcting now...

[@winslow142]

Alco had three major problems which contributed to their demise: 1) Their diesel production was inefficient. Steam locomotives were custom and individually built and not assembled on a production line- like diesels are. This means that their profit margin was lower on every unit sold than their competitors. Was this Alco’s fault? During World War Two the government dictated what research and production could be done as well as what facilities were built. While GM was able to move forward with diesel locomotives Alco was given steam contracts and their diesel production facility in Auburn, NY was tasked to make engines for the navy. This put Alco behind the 8-ball when it came to later engine development. 2) The railroads were pressured by GM and GE to buy their products under the threat that they would move their traffic to competing railroads. I once interviewed the last president of Alco for a graduate paper on the history of their labor relations and when I asked him why Alcos smoked so much he sighed and said that his locomotives were ‘white elephants’ and that the railroad mechanics didn’t know how to work on them because there were far fewer of them in their fleet. 3) Labor relations were horrible. The workers in Schenectady were organized by the Steel Workers, and their national sold them down the river. Apparently there were some backroom deals where workers at other facilities owned by GM/ GE would get better contracts if the national union would kill off Alco. Just before they padlocked the gate, Alco had received a large overseas order which would have saved the company. The union demanded to renegotiate the labor rates and wouldn’t budge.

[@alanmiller9681]

@@winslow142 Totally agree with you. The government is doing similar things today with the auto industry and it’s stupid. Hmm! Politicians dictating the terms to Engineers.

[@Elliottblancher]

I love Alco's Century and road switcher series

[@pmaitrasm]

@20:08, ALCo did sell a few to the Indian Railways, but most importantly, they sold the design, and ALCo based diesel electric locomotives were built in India by the Diesel Locomotive Works, recently renamed Banaras Locomotive Works. This factory stopped producing diesel electric locomotives in 2019. This factory made a lot of modifications to the original ALCo design, produced locomotives, mostly in 1676 mm Broad Gauge, 1000 mm Metre Gauge, and other gauges for export. Their locomotives are still in service in India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Viet Nam, Malaysia, etc. A very popular model of ALCo spinoff is the DLW WDM-3D locomotive. ALCo designed high-adhesion bogies were also used in electric locomotives, made by Chittaranjan Locomotive Works, one of the largest locomotive manufacturers in the world.

[@prabhatsourya3883]

Was looking for this comment. Indian Railways took the licenses, and redesigned the hell out of the 251B prime movers, making it surge up in power from the initial 2600hp, all the way to 3300hp, with some models going as high as 3600hp. Even in meter gauge, the YDM-4 locomotive, with a 6-cylinder 251 prime mover, was one of the best locomotives to give service in Indian Railways, only losing prominence when Project Unigauge took off, converting everything to broad gauge.

[@pmaitrasm]

@@prabhatsourya3883, Thank you. 🙏

[@RickyJr46]

In October 2019 I rode a train pulled by an ALCO steam locomotive, the massive Big Boy 4014. We traveled from West Colton yard and up the Cajon Pass to Barstow.

[@FoxIslandRailroadCo]

Awesome video as always!! Just a quick note: “Cold Starting” (or firing up) a steam locomotive takes 4-5 HOURS, not just 25-30mins. For this reason, skeleton steam crews (affectionately known as “Hoggers”) were left to maintain the locomotive’s Fire and Water in the boiler overnight, so there would be no “start” in the morning. This meant extra labor costs, fuel costs, and maintenance. Sadly, this is another reason diesels looked so appetizing to the railroads.

[@stephenarbon2227]

I don't know about those large US mainline engines, but in the UK about 2 hours from cold, although I've read they could get an engine running in about an hour in an emergency using preheated water. Of course that also included all the lubrication, inspection etc, but you also need a lot of time at the end of the shift. While you might be able to start a large diesel engine in seconds, it still takes time to warm the engine & turbo, top up fuel, water & oil, and build up air, and inspections. Even with trucks & buses, you need 10 minutes to get going & 10 + minutes to fuel. So as you suggest, 'History in the Dark' was wrong with both timings, although the conclusion is still valid.

[@wkjeeping9053]

4 to 5 hours what we're you firing up. I could fire up a #618 2-8-0 consolidation loco in 2 hours complete cold. Fireing up with it warm from the day before 1 to 1-1/2 hrs. UP fires up the big boy in 6 to 8 hrs cold, 4 hours warm.

[@johnstudd4245]

@@wkjeeping9053 It seems like I remember hearing that if you tried to heat up the boiler to quickly you could damage it.

[@alanmiller9681]

I was born and lived in Schenectady until I was 18. The residents are all proud of this small city’s accomplishments! Thomas Edison’s workshop, the one time home of General Electric, the Knolls Atomic Laboratory and the American Locomotive Company, creator of 25 Big Boys….the greatest and most awesome locomotives every built! When I was young, I still remember seeing one Big Boy in their factory yard. Just the sheer size of it amazed me! I wanted add that last year when I visited Schenectady, there remains one remnant of ALCO… a crane used to lift these beasts.

[@lancereagan3046]

My grandfather worked for ALCO & my great grandfather worked for them for 30 years before retiring.

[@alanmiller9681]

@@lancereagan3046 Nice to hear. I bet they had some stories to tell.

[@mzmegazone]

Much of the old Alco plant stood on the banks of the Mohawk River for many years, though part of GE. Some years back a small part was cleared when Erie Boulevard was extended all the way to Freeman's Bridge Road. But just a few years ago almost the entire remaining plant was razed to make way for the Rivers Casino and Resort. One small holdout remains, incongruously sitting amidst all the new development - STS Steel. The brick building is, I believe, the last remaining Alco building. The sections that are corrugated metal now all used to be glazed. It was all brick and glass, and the doors on the end used to have rails. You can still see them peeking through the dirt they've been covered with in a satellite view. I expect STS will move on at some point as they're the last holdout from what was formerly a completely industrial area. And, when they do, the last vestige of Alco on that site will vanish.

[@mzmegazone]

Oh, there is another small bit of Alco left - though not from their railroading days. Right on the banks of the river is an innocuous, tiny building - the Walthousen Reactor Critical Facility. Yes, there is a small atomic reactor on that site, a legacy of Alco's foray into nuclear power. Today it is run by RPI as part of their nuclear program.

[@alanmiller9681]

@@mzmegazoneNice post! I have some photos of the area from a year ago including the cranes.

[@ChickVicious237]

The town is pronounced with a "Sk" sound, like "Ska-neck-teddy" Thanks for covering this Darkness, great history in the area.

[@juliankremer1900]

Thank u. I was going 2 say the same thing. I grew up in Brunswick, NY & his pronunciation of it was painful.

[@section8usmc53]

I learned this by happenstance listening to old time radio shows perhaps 15 years ago now. I was listening to a variety/comedy show like Burns & Allen or something like that, and it came up, and I was shocked I hadn't heard of it to that point, and then they had a little fun with it because it's one of those words that's just simply fun to say. Totally unique, which I guess is why I remember where I was and when so vividly, when I first heard it.

[@michigandon]

@@juliankremer1900 His pronunciations of a LOT of things is painful, to say the least.

[@scotlawrence]

skuh-neck-tuh-dee

[@brentboswell1294]

4 alco 251 prime movers were responsible for bringing the Saturn V rockets to the launch pad, and the space shuttles, and now the SLS. One alco 251 runs one set of tracks on the NASA transporter crawlers.

[@joshuariddensdale2126]

Alco was the preferred diesel manufacturer here in the northeast. Both the New Haven (after they abandoned the idea of electrics after spending millions to electrify their lines), and the Boston And Maine were fond of Alco. Even to this day, the tourist lines use vintage Alco locomotives.

[@illinoiscentralrailroadfan6015]

I grew up with the Illinois Central Railroad and they bought six Alco C636 in the late 60's, they were all gone by the 80's. They were bought for coal service in Kentucky but they were constantly in the shops in Paducah Kentucky for repairs

[@richardking2762]

The best thing about Alco diesels is that they blew as much black smoke as Alco steamers.

[@louispaparella5766]

When Dad retired from the Navy, we moved to Schenectady. Graduated from Mont Pleasant in 1960. 2 of my uncles welded at ALCO. They have worked on "Big Boy"

[@ashleyjiscool]

So they built 4014 and the other big boys

[@louispaparella5766]

C@@ashleyjiscool

[@tazareal]

You can't start a full size cold steam locomotive in 30 minutes, unless you like boiler explosions. It's more like hours.

[@michaelimbesi2314]

Hi, just a note: Schenectady is pronounced Ska-neck-ta-dee. The Sch is the same as the sch that you get in the word school. I think it may originally come from the Dutch settlers in the area, since you see the same thing in the name Schuylkill (Skoo-kul) (a river in Philly), which is old Dutch for “hidden river”

[@BroWCarey]

You are correct on the pronunciation. But the name Schenectady originally comes from the Mohawk language, meaning "Beyond the Pines."

[@allwinds3786]

I was thinking the same thing

[@robertfrancis6967]

I just got done making essentially the same comment. I grew up in the area unfortunately it has gone the way of so many other Great industrial Cities that literally built America Detroit, Gary Indiana Rochester NY Pittsburgh PA and so many others

[@douglasskaalrud6865]

@michaelimbesi2314. I’m chuckling at the “Skoo-kul.” pronunciation of “Schuylkill.” The first time I came across it was in an article in the December 1983 issue of Trains Magazine. The article, entitled, “The Grandest Railway Terminal in America,” written by the famous Bert Pennypacker, was about Philadelphia’s Broad Street Station. The article had a map of course and there it was, the Schuykill River. Pennsylvania bridged it to get to the station over a very elongated causeway. What I wouldn’t give to be able to stand under that glass trainshed. 16 tracks wide! 22.3 million passengers….in 1913- even with tiny locomotives and tiny passenger cars! William Penn should still be keeping an eye on the station but the fools tore it down. We never learn to appreciate things until they’re gone. Here in Minneapolis we had a beautiful building called the Metropolitan building. They tore it down in the 60’s because the politicos wanted “urban renewal.” People still rage over it. It was a crime. If you haven’t you should check out the story on Broad Street Station. Terrific train photos, construction photos, Philadelphia skullduggery. You can find the issue on ebay-I’ve seen it three or four times. Should be required reading for true Pennsy fans.

[@gg-ky6mf]

@@BroWCarey Loosely translates to “beyond the pine”, “over the pine ridge” or “place beyond the pines”. Place Beyond the Pines is the name of the movie set in Schenectady starring Ryan Gosling and Bradley Cooper. Movie was shot in Schenectady.

[@joshjones3408]

That s...with the cat 😆😆 that was a cruve ball but a good one ... great video 👍👍

[@freddykruger6194]

Canadian Coast Guard here, we had up until recently 40x Alco V16 251’s powering our t1100 and t1200 icebreakers as well as the ccgs hudson. Right now we have 24x units. Compared to modern equivalent marine engines, these things burn through about 40% more oil, 15-20% more fuel and have cracking issues in the blocks as well as main bearing cap serration fretting.

[@larryhankins3586]

One difference between Alco and EMD that you did not mention is that besides the prime mover, is that EMD also produced their own electrical equipment, so they did not need to depend on a outside supplier for their production. If Also would have or been able to get out from under GE they might of had a chance, but with EMD and GE being inhouse operations they would never be able to compete.

[@pmaitrasm]

EMD was purchased by GM (General Motors), not GE (General Electric).

[@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis]

GE almost gave up on building locomotives themselves but they got an export order and were willing to add an extra idler axle to reduce axle loadings on lightweight track. If GE had instead gone back to helping Alco, they might have just bought them when times got tough in the late 1960s.

[@K8thebest_Gaming]

ALCO and BALDWIN walked so EMD and GE could run

[@ModMokkaMatti]

And then GE and GM both stumbled over themselves, dropped the ball, and went into decline; never to return to the levels they once were at in anything, ever again. RIP American manufacturing; RIP America.

[@davidstrainsandlego]

Always loved alco, its very prevalent locally as I live very close to Schenectady(ska-nect-ady), and many of the historic railroads around here use old alcos

[@chickey333]

Thanks. I could have sworn he was pronouncing that name wrong.

[@mikejohnson5900]

Thanks for the video! By now I'm sure you've been corrected on your pronunciation of Schenectady so I won't go there. I grew up in Sch'dy and my Uncle worked at ALCO. sometimes he would take me with him into the mammoth (to my child's eye) plant when he went in to pick up his check. Since then I have a fascination with the old factories like that and GE's, also in Sch'dy (the Electric City). I had the opportunity also to work at GE's R&D center for awhile on a project. It was fascinating.