The Curious Case of Confusing, Contradictory and Conflicting Caravan Weights

Caravan Weights!
Are they deliberately confusing? What is the purpose of a caravan compliance plate if its wrong?
This is a cautionary tale of how our brand new “top of the range” Mountain Trail LXV 6.7 caravan was handed over to us with a tare weight considerably heavier than stated on the compliance plate and a tow ball weight also considerably heavier than specified!
We checked, checked and checked again, weighing the caravan multiple times in the process, coming to the same conclusion every time…the caravan is overweight!
What can we do about this?
What can the caravan manufacturers do about this?
What should be done about this?
There are so many stories about there about how caravan buyers have been misled by the stated caravan weights…this seems to be a more common occurrence these days, with the “consumer affairs” stated remedy of repair, replace or refund seemingly not a viable option for many.
In our case, Mountain Trail RV were great and did help remedy once of our weight issues, helping to reduce the Tow Ball Weight, but the other issue, an overweight caravan (and therefore reduced payload) is still unresolved as of the end of March 2023…

[@NoelMcdougall-tw7do]

Well said and done as this is a huge issue

[@4and2Vanning]

Thanks

[@brigeteking4298]

Great job on this video Pete. More videos like this need to be put out there. I understand it to be common practice amongst caravan manufacturers that the tare weight is the caravan as stock standard and before you add any upgraded options. Never rely on any weigh bridge, they just aren’t accurate for cars and caravans, you must get it professionally weighed as you did. Having said that, the company who weighed your caravan should have advised you on how to redistribute your weight. Having a sloping shower that doesn’t drain well is not acceptable for me no matter what price the caravan is, but especially for the price you paid. Alarm bells rang for me when in a previous video you said Mountain Trail requested that you do not post the video of the hand over. I thought that was odd as it would’ve been good advertising for them on your channel. Looking forward to watching your outcome and hope it all goes well.

[@4and2Vanning]

Thank You. Yes the practice of not weighing the caravan to stabilise an accurate not debatable tare weight is very odd. We as consumers need to be made more aware of our right to demand a certified weighbridge certificate. I bitterly regret not insisting on such a certificate when I bought this van. I made a mistake and took them at their word when they assured me the plated weight was accurate. Yes, I have to confess some of the behaviour from Mountain Trail has been odd.

[@markhughes3491]

Hi Pete and Jill. My wife alerted me to your video. My comment probably won't help you other than for you to appreciate you are not alone. We have a high-end off-road van. To our dismay we discovered similar issues, with the tare weight and especially the ball weight (even with water tanks etc. empty) exceeding the brochure specs by an uncomfortable amount. After shedding some of the optional extras we ordered, and paying for an ATM upgrade, we can tow legally with just a little room to spare but still with a ball weight in excess of what it should be. I hope you get a resolution after Easter and go on to have happy travels.

[@4and2Vanning]

Hey Mark Why did YOU have to pay for the ATM upgrade? Surely an overweight caravan is a manufacturing fault, and the ATM upgrade is a remedy that is the responsibility of the manufacturer??

[@sambarlick]

Very confusing indeed... Happy you are able to get it sorted in the end.

[@4and2Vanning]

It’s not sorted yet

[@sambarlick]

@@4and2Vanning oh dear. But roadworthy at least.

[@sarahmyers4864]

Great video. But I'm extremely disappointed to hear that there has been no resolution thus far from mountain trail especially considering the cost of the caravan.

[@4and2Vanning]

Totally agree

[@jeffdownunder4116]

Well done on this video in particular Pete, you explain it all very clearly. I wonder how many of us towing our vans are oblivious to actual weights? I know I frightened myself when going over the weigh bridge to the point of getting a Lovells upgrade on the vehicle as the ball weight pushed us over considerably. After watching this it has convinced me that getting a proper weight done on our rig before heading off is essential, if only for (I hope) peace of mind.

[@4and2Vanning]

Glad it helped Jeff. It’s a minefield

[@ladysusanjane2682]

Agreed. I can sleep better at night knowing I’ve sorted out our problems and our very overweight van!

[@graemegrieve1953]

Thanks very much for highlighting these issues as many people are unaware. As you have done, I too ran a spreadsheet for both the design phase and then van loading. Our tare weight came in 60kg above my estimate and when I ran my empty new van over a registered weigh bridge the tare weight was identical to what Titanium Caravans has stamped on the compliance plate. I tow at 3100 - 3250kg loaded and run 295kg TBM… I have just watched a very interesting video by Robert Pepper discussing the effect on TBM of towing with level or up v down on the tow ball so going to look at that to see if any fine tuning is required. I’m happy everything was compliant when professionally weighed as we only tow with a V6 Ranger (would love a 2500 Ram) Keep up the good info…

[@4and2Vanning]

Thank you. I wish my Tare weight had come in exactly as the compliance plate!!!!

[@jimmycook872]

It's a lemon under the lemon law your entitled to a full refund. Not too mentioned the product was not as per advertised. "Truth in advertising ",which is a breach of the consumer law and hence therefore a breach of contract. The ACCC might be able to help you in regards to that but usually they are just a Toothless tiger. LOL It might also help if you get a consumer affairs officer from yours state that you've purchased it they have the power to resolve these issues. In conclusion its a case of buyer beware. Good content keep up the good work. Cheers 🇭🇲😀👍🍻🍻

[@4and2Vanning]

Thank You…Hopefully we dont come to that sort of redress.

[@Sabumnim666]

You should have looked at the GVM de rated F250 More power, torque, same GCM 9000kg, Lower kerb weight, better economy about 13L/100kM tow ball with 70mm ball of 450kg. The ball weight issue you are getting is most likely due to the way you load your van but I could be wrong. As you get more experience and practice I am pretty certain you will sort the issues. Happy vanning.

[@4and2Vanning]

Thanks. The F250 was in very short supply here in Australia which is why I went for the Ram. The ball weight issue was not due to how I load the van, but poor design in the van where everything that carries weight is forward of the axle

[@ladysusanjane2682]

Well….our van (not yr brand) had to have an ATM upgrade at our expense and just as well that the chassis and axles could handle it! We were very overweight from what was stated at the beginning. We are no longer “newbies” but have our eyes wide open now for future caravan purchases. So I guess that’s a good thing…. I hope you get a satisfactory resolution because we gave up and did it ourselves in the end.

[@4and2Vanning]

Did you go down the path of registering a complaint with ACCC and consumer affairs??? If your van was grossly overweight you would have been entitled to a remedy under consumer law

[@ladysusanjane2682]

Considering we had a number of problems which, to be fair, they sorted most out, we decided to do it ourselves purely because they didn’t return our calls!🤣It just seemed an easier and quicker process to approach an engineering company than continue the argy-bargy with the caravan manufacturer.🤷🏼‍♀️BUT we certainly could have gone down that route.

[@4and2Vanning]

Yes I understand. Caravan manufacturers seem to specialise in being inept! They get away with far too much with this tactic

[@stevegordon-hall2732]

Mountain trail seems to have a lot of excuses for there dodgy built caravans.

[@4and2Vanning]

That’s the weird thing! In all other respects the caravan is extremely well built. They have just been extremely opaque about the issue of weights, not transparent at all!

[@namyl01]

I’ve just put down a deposit for an off-road hard top van (15’ to 18’ with all the bells & whistles), Tare in brochure is 2500kg and ATM 3000kg. Saw an almost identical van advertised by the seller with a Tare of 2696kg. That makes me worried my van, when delivered , will have a tiny Payload. The van can carry 240kg of water. That only leaves 64kg of personal payload once some extras are added in. Seller not responding at this stage. I’ve read the 2022 ACCC report, and I know ATM & GVM can be upgraded, but this is a ridiculous situation.

[@4and2Vanning]

Yes it’s crazy. Any manufacturer who makes a van with a small payload is always going to be under pressure to “minimise” their stated tare weight. Make sure you get a certified weighbridge certificate before you hand over your money

[@namyl01]

Yes, good advice - thanks.@@4and2Vanning

[@davidhowell5945]

Hi there, A number of thoughts come to mind with all these issues. Firstly I wouldn’t put too much faith in the numbers in the brochure, they have at least published a ballpark figure. However what should happen (according to the ACCC I believe) is that your van should be weighed with all the accessories you chose included and ready to drive away, fully operational, but with empty tanks, and that weight should be stamped on your compliance plate, pretty much on the day you pick it up. It is good that MT publish the weights of all their options/accessories, as do Australian Off Road (AOR). I don’t know about any others… Also I wouldn’t put too much reliance on public weighbridges, they are essentially for weighing really heavy stuff,(trucks etc) and always seem to have a 20 to 50 kg tolerance. It seems the only way to get it right is to get the mobile caravan weighing guys to check it again. Regarding your axle load I think that the maximum axle load, is right on the limit compared with your actual weight, (which is another issue altogether) and doesn’t give you much leeway. However it is (only just) okay because part of the load (weight) of your van is being carried by the car. In your case you say it’s around 360kg ball weight which is slightly less than 10% of your ATM, so not too bad. I tow an AOR Matrix pop top which has an ATM of 2600kg and I have to say it’s hard work keeping it legal, so I feel for you. I would persevere with Mountain Trail as it seems they are trying to resolve all this. Wouldn’t it be nice if manufacturers got it right in the first place instead of all this “rubbery” approach, or ignoring it altogether. We don’t seem to have the problem with car manufacturers but then again, I have never weighed my car as I’ve left the showroom, but payloads are always an issue. 😳😉 Just out of interest, how is your rear axle load once the van is attached? cheers, David

[@4and2Vanning]

Hey David…Thanks for the feedback. Some great comments there…but I do have some answers: 1)I actually do/did put faith in the numbers in the brochure. They are listed as “specifications” and therefore should be reasonably accurate. You wouldn’t expect the height or length of the van to be different to that shown in the specifications, or indeed the battery size or solar panels etc to be different, so why should weight specifications be any different? (Albeit with a disclaimer that weights are estimates only and can vary from spec…) the weight variance from spec should not be significant, otherwise this becomes misleading advertising! 2) In my case I specified one extra only, the bulldog jack, everything else was as built by the manufacturer, therefore the correct tare weight should have been known when weighed prior to delivery and stamped on the compliance plate…it wasn’t! 3) I believe Zone and one or two others now offer a “configuration” option so that the customer can know what the cost and weight of any extras are. I think this is a great idea, and hopefully will be adopted by more manufacturers. 4) The “Go Weigh” weigh-bridge at Barnawartha is calibrated every 12 months and certified by NMI (National Measurement Institute). It is a 20Kg increment weigh-bridge so should be accurate to within 20Kg/40Kg maximum, but of course it could just as easily be 20Kg underweight as overweight! In any case, I also had the full rig weighed by a professional mobile weighing company, as shown in the video, and its results were very very similar to those from the Go Weigh weigh-bridge, so I am reasonably confident in their accuracy. I have no idea how Mountain Trail weighed this caravan. I believe they use a weigh-bridge at a facility near to their factory (but don’t weigh every van) and I believe they also have their own mobile scales, although I haven no clue how accurately these are calibrated!!!! 5) This is essentially my point… It is so confusing and difficult to get this right, especially when we can all question the validity of one set of scales v another! At no point have I been provided by Mountain Trail with a certified weigh-bridge certificate from a calibrated scale 6) Yes I agree, on the face of it, the axle group rating of the caravan has little leeway for movement… 7) Yes I am persevering with Mountain Trail, and I believe and hope that now that they have seemingly stopped denying there is a problem, and stopped being “rubbery” they are (sloowwwlly) working to resolve this via my suggestion of an ARTM upgrade 8) The Ram fully loaded and carrying the Tow Ball Mass came in at a rear axle load of 2364Kg as opposed to a maximum load capacity of 2740Kg (According to the…specifications :))

[@davidhowell5945]

Hey Pete, I agree with you. Please be assured I wasn’t intending in any way to appear to be defending MT but it just occurred to me that only a few minor changes in the build (for example, say a different model fridge or specifying a cooktop with an oven or not, would cause a variation in weight from that shown in the brochure. Anyhow, I didn’t mean to cause you stress or deny your position. Same with the weighbridge. It’s annoying that MT don’t, won’t or can’t provide you with a certified tare weight based on the precise weight of your van on the day you pick it up. I believe they absolutely should weigh EVERY van when it’s ready for delivery, and that is what should be stamped on the compliance plate. AOR are another one of the manufacturers who do provide costs and weights of all their options and accessories. I think the ATM upgrade would give you a much better safety and load margin if they can do it. I’m watching with interest to see how it all gets resolved. Cheers

[@4and2Vanning]

HEY David…i understand perfectly, i am not stressed by your comments, I appreciate them :) The really “rubbery” thing about all of this is there has been for years no clear legally binding definition of caravan tare weight inclusions…and as a result it became a muddled mess.” But now, thanks to the Roma caravans case recently there is case law that legally defines tare weight. In a nutshell tare weight should include all “extras” specified by the customer and should be the weight of the van as it is handed over to customer ready for service, with all fluid tanks empty an up to 10Kg of fuel in reservoirs. I also believe, that in NSW at least, in order for a new van to be registered the reg documents have to include a certified weigh-bridge certificate for the tare weight (as defined above) dated no later than 28 days prior to registration, has to be provided,with that weight stamped on the compliance plate. I wonder how many manufacturers are actually complying with this????

[@davidhowell5945]

Yes, that’s how I understand what tare weight should be and isn’t it great that the Roma case has at last prompted a clear definition and regs. I like what NSW have done as people will know where they stand. Hope the other states follow suit.

[@4and2Vanning]

They problem is very few consumers know or understand the implications of this new case law, and many manufacturers also don’t know, or choose not to know. Ultimately its down to us as consumers. WE should all insist on a certified weigh-bridge certificate before completing our purchase. I bitterly regret not doing that, even though I swore to myself I would. My mistake was taking at “face value” their insistence that the compliance plate weight was accurate with only a minor variance possible, a mistake I will not make again. If this video helps other consumers not make the same mistake then it will have served its purpose…

[@duncanalexander3077]

Rear axle weight not mentioned??? How hard was it to get a truck licence?

[@4and2Vanning]

I haven’t got a LR licence…yet! I would only need a LR licence for the Ram if I take the GVM over 4495kg, which I haven’t done yet

[@ChristopherRBela]

Well that’s a great vdo Pete, one I can fully appreciate. My thoughts? I would be as meticulous and as studious as you have been. I don’t accept Mountain Trails assertion that there are tolerance variations. Weights are an exact science and there simply isn’t any reason for the tare weight, GVM, net weight or any other weight to vary by any more than a few milligrams. As far as ‘ball weight’ is concerned, I find 400Kg to be frighteningly unacceptable. Changing the location of the spare wheel was a no brainer but why did they use a heavy steel bracket? Why not aluminum? And I also don’t accept that because of customization, there are also variables to the GVM or axle weight. As I say, weight is an exact science and you should be able to tow your van with complete confidence that you are well within not only legal limits but that nothing is under stress. I question the need to have that fancy hitch, it weighs a hefty amount and I doubt it is necessary but that’s up to you. On the matter of overall weight, the local weighbridge and the mobile contractor surely must provide you with a certificate of calibration when issuing your weight certificate. It should indicate an ‘error margin’ providing tolerance variation. I wonder if Mountain Trail can provide a ‘calibration certificate’ for their equipment. From what I can gather, the only solution is your suggestion to upgrade the ATM. $200k is a hell of a lot of money to spend and have a shower that doesn’t drain. Mountain Trail have a good reputation, I’m surprised you have had these on-going issues. But a very interesting vdo Pete and an issue I can’t wait to get to the bottom of.

[@4and2Vanning]

More importantly, even if the weights were “variable” as they suggested, they still have a legal responsibility to publish the actual tare weight on the compliance plate

[@Drdiesel.]

Hi, been through this with our Supreme caravan, tare weight 2246 on com plate, I weighed it on way home after purchased it, came in at tare weight 2500 kgs, so I could only add 150kgs of water ,food cloths ect, contacted Supreme got on to an idiot the timber frame might have been wet, in the end they made me have van inspected (new van) and at the end cost to me was roughly $1000 they issued a compliance plate with the correct weights. Found rego papers which had the weights that it should have all along. 2246kgs.

[@Drdiesel.]

My mistake 2460kgs, have the van weighed every year then go home and throw out what we don't need.

[@4and2Vanning]

This Is bloody ridiculous. Get on to social media and name and shame then! Most manufacturers are terrified of brand damage from social media!

[@stevep2073]

Very interesting video. There’s some crazy stuff going on there. I’m curious how you’re determining the tow ball weight when you’re measuring it yourself?

[@4and2Vanning]

Weigh the Ram fully loaded and unhitched, and then go round to weighbridge again and weigh Ram hitched to caravan. The difference (additional weight) is the tow ball load.

[@paulholubecki6386]

Feel for you guys. At least you are doing the right thing by being legal. The aperthy out there is scary. One thing with ball weight. The angle of your van makes a difference to the ball weight. Try it.

[@4and2Vanning]

Thanks Paul…Yes I knew about van angle and how its different with single v twin axle vans.

[@JustAnotherReviewwithAlek]

Well its official. I will not place an order for the hybrid model. That’s disgusting. You spend $200k+ on a premium caravan and you have a faulty shower, and the excuse they give you is. Let’s leave it. Plus everything else with the weight. Yeah, no thank you. I will pass! They should build you another van which you originally wanted. Or at least do the right thing and refund some of the money. Dodgy .

[@4and2Vanning]

Yes some very strange responses and reactions from them!

[@runtr8389]

unfortunately the wheels /base is too far back . so the tow ball weight is too high , best of luck on your trips

[@4and2Vanning]

Thank you. Yes I have often wondered if there was a poor design decision along these lines 😩

[@PETERDAVISON-be2tu]

Yes confusing but you must understand weigh bridges are notoriously incorrect. It seems to me you have underestimated your own included items plus extras like a stone benchtop?? . You also proved your own items started around 350 kg and suddenly finished at 600kg when you do the math. Overall your tow ball ended up 10⁸% and ATM under 4000kg. Enjoy your travels

[@4and2Vanning]

“Weigh bridges are notoriously incorrect” but is the same the case for mobile professional weigh companies? Stone composite bench tops and everything else were included in the manufacturers tare weight as I tried to explain (obviously poorly!) Our “stuff” was weighed at 325Kg but I accept that can vary by up to 10% depending on how much food/drinks we are carrying. (It could be les than that figure!) Not sure where your maths gets 600Kg from???

[@PETERDAVISON-be2tu]

@@4and2Vanning normally extras are included above and beyond the compliance plate weight. That's maybe where your 150 kg extra came from. Your total weight loaded seemed to be around 3800kg but when you took everything out it went back to 3200. Your explanation of water seemed inconsistent some with 3 tanks one with 2 tanks. Also, ball weight has to be done at tow ball height when the van s on the ball. In my experience, rely on professional people on each weigh or your not comparing apples to apples. You did not mention any of your car weights. Have you considered moving weight to the ute? Hope this helps

[@4and2Vanning]

Actually Peter the comment about extras is not correct. There is now a legal definition (following the Roma caravan case) of what is/should be included in a caravan tare weight, and it includes all “extras” as specified by the customer with the weight at handover state. In my case, as I have tried to explain, there was only one “extra” which was or should have been included in Tare weight. Water weight was either 295Kg or 210Kg (2 tanks only). Tow ball weight was indeed calculated at tow ball height with van connected…or weighed with actual professional tow ball scales as the video shows, when I used “professional people”. The car GVM is 4495Kg, but moving weight from caravan to car wont resolve the fact that tare weight is incorrect!

[@PETERDAVISON-be2tu]

​@@4and2Vanning checked a previous video where you claimed the tow ball weight when fully loaded was 395kg. By the way you forgot to mention the heavier by 30 kg hitch you put on yourself hmmmm. In another video you said you were worried about having not enough weight in the van and were considering moving back from the car. Then weight to 460kg. This was obviously a packing issue. No confusion here. Caravaning isn't an exact science and figures are indicative that's why professional help is essentially. Poor packing and flicking between the professionals and weigh bridges doesn't help. Oh axle weight or Gtm is always less than ATM...

[@4and2Vanning]

@@PETERDAVISON-be2tu The weight of the hitch has no bearing on tow ball weight, it is added to GVM of car and is part of the car payload. I don't know hat videos you were watching with those numbers? Possibly an older video with a different caravan where I also had a weight issue?

[@Maria-bc1dp]

Having previously been in the industry when all manufacturers were happy to publish weights without consequence as no one checked, including the authorities (the good old days), one would have to assume that the weights published in the brochure are for a standard van. Its one thing to acknowledge the extra weight of these additional options in the tare calculations however these will also have an impact on the towball weight. That kitchen at 60kg will affect the towball weight, the electric jack at 15kg will affect towball weight, the stone benchtops will affect towball weight which you've neglected to take into consideration. Even full water tanks will have an impact both in favour and/or a negative one. To expect a standard ball weight with additional options is a little naïve on your part I would think. As an experienced caravaner, the way you load a caravan is extremely important in terms of balance whilst maintaining a legal tare. Not acknowledging this will only prove detrimental to your subscribers/viewers as you've missed a very important safety issue around ball weights and the effect extra options have on it, not just the tare. Both are important from a safety perspective however one has a huge impact on towing stability.

[@4and2Vanning]

Thanks for your comments. I am well aware of the impact if ANY extra weight on the tow ball weight, and I most certainly did not expect the TBM to remain at the stated 180Kg…nor did I expect it come in at 430Kg!! The “extras” in this caravan (which were specified at build by the manufacturer…not by me) came to 125Kg in total. The TBM subsequently measured as near as possible to tare came in at 220Kg. Is it realistic to expect gathering extra 125Kg of extras to add 40Kg to TBM? I.e approx 33% of every extra Kg is added to TBM? I don’t believe I have neglected the impact of full water tanks, please watch again and you will see this is not the case. I am well aware that full/empty water tanks affects tare weight and TBM and I am also aware that the way a caravan is loaded affects TBM, which is why changing the location of the spare wheel had such a big impact!

[@jeffdownunder4116]

I would suggest Pete is far from naive and has a right to expect a “fit for purpose” TBM and van.

[@4and2Vanning]

The most galling thing about this whole saga is the fact that the tare weight as specified on the compliance plate is blatantly wrong! The manufacturer has a legal responsibility to state the correct tare weight…and they blatantly and knowingly did not…and it didn’t/doesn’t concern them that this was the case!

[@jeffdownunder4116]

I’ve always felt that tare weight is irrelevant to a van owner. What is important to us is the weight with full tanks, gas, water and even the diesel in a heater if fitted. You don’t go anywhere in a tare configuration and yes I understand what tare is.

[@4and2Vanning]

@@jeffdownunder4116 But its not irrelevant…It forms the basis for van payload, which is one of the key factors taken into account when choosing a van.