"The Curtains Are Blue"

[@CH4R10T_TV]

Just a cozy little rant video today to give you something to shew on, folks. I used to do more of these and I've left them by the wayside in recent years, but occasionally it's comfortable to go back to an older format. Regular content returns tomorrow!

[@MissEvieYT]

omfg, when I read The Great Gatsby in HS, my 11th grade AP Literature teacher actually showed us the blue curtains meme and told us that the book didn't have any symbolism in it so we should keep that in mind. This woman had a degree from Harvard on her classroom wall and she told us that *Gatsby* had no symbolism in it. Inadvertently, she taught me to loathe 'critics' who dismiss symbolism, subtext and anything deeper than whatever they could glean from their initial, surface reading.

[@stringcheeseofficial1977]

I envy her confidence a bit ngl

[@sherlocksmuuug6692]

​@@stringcheeseofficial1977 "Ah yes, a story about a rich guy throwing parties and getting shot at the end. And nothing else.🗿"

[@kylegonewild]

Teacher: "The blue curtains represent the melancholy the protagonist is experiencing." Author : "The curtains are blue." Actually the Author: "This is a crime thriller, the blue curtains were a clue. The witness described the curtains through the window as beige but the detective failed to notice until it was too late that the curtains were the wrong color. They had been replaced."

[@RecRoomPlays]

I don't have an inherent problem with textual literalism, not least of all because I often feel I have a personal difficulty with pulling symbolism out of things, but I do think that it still needs to be paired with some actual critical thinking/analysis. The curtains aren't just blue. They may not necessarily need to be symbolic of sadness, depression, melancholy, freedom, or anything else, but they still contribute to the character of the writing. It's thought-terminating to look at set dressing and just go "it's blue because it's blue" - okay, but that blue still TELLS you something, about the color contrast of the room, about the color preferences of the characters and/or author and how color is employed in this particular story, even if you don't dig in to any symbolism there is still information to be gained from examining why something is described or framed in a particular way. It'd be like looking at a Wes Anderson film and thinking "the colors are vibrant because they're vibrant". It does nothing to interact with the media at hand.

[@Westlander857]

I always got on really well with my English teachers, and always felt the most understood by them. Granted, yeah, sometimes they could overanalyze things, and a couple of them were d**ks. But so many of my teachers cast doubt on me because I wasn’t very good at math, chemistry and so on. Not my English teachers. They always supported my desire to read, analyze, and learn about other people’s perspectives and ideas. I partially credit them with helping me become the person I am now.

[@TheZacharias333]

I think one way a teacher could respond to a student making a curtains are blue argument is to say something like “humor me in imagining what they could mean, and see if you get something meaningful out of it.”

[@bnuuyliker]

Or even asking if the curtains weren’t blue (if they were a different color, replaced by something else, or taken out entirely), how that would change the tone, message, etc

[@TheZacharias333]

@@bnuuyliker and so much of critical thinking, I think, is getting people to entertain or explore ideas they might not necessarily believe or agree with. The way blue curtains are presented in the meme makes it seem like a battle between an obviously silly and obviously sensible statement of fact, when really such statements are meant to be an invitation to deeper thought itself, and not an exercise in agreement. The blueness of the curtains doesn’t actually matter in the sense that the teacher (ideally) isn’t trying to get you to accept that they have any particular relation, but rather to think about things like blue curtains in a new and more comprehensive way.

[@x-xPhobia]

This is the stuff I subscribe for. I love this kind of bite sized but still thought provoking content. As a great man once said "I have to say, my brain is still in recovery mode from taking in so many high level, important ideas." 😂 Loved this one though.

[@frostrider3704]

This is the difference between people writing for literature readers and layering in poetic symbols and people writing for the general population. They are two seperate types of text and should be treated as such. For the first, the curtains being blue is very important as every detail is important to the scene. For the second, the curtains are just set dressing for where the characters find themselves. I think the melding of English Language and English Literature in schools is where the confusion lies. In literature the curtains being blue is extremely important, in language, not so much. But in classes where the students aren't aware which part of English they are learning, this symbolism can seem absurd. I really didn't understand the difference until I started my English language degree and had to take one lesson which was for literature students as well. They looked for very different references in works than I did and valued a text in a much different way. All my lessons focussed on clarity in a sentence and how descriptors set the scene. Their lessons focussed on how important all the details were in a scene, and clarity was not so important as to the holistic meaning behind it all. Frankly, I found them exhausting, but their way of reading into things was still relevant in the texts they were studying. A lot of them thought my approach lessened the work somehow because I wasn't looking for the deeper meaning all the time and focused more on sentence structure and the building blocks of the text. They thought my way of doing things lacked soul and did the writer a disservice. I really think more weight should be given to these different approaches far earlier in the English curriculum, to make those differences clearer for everyone involved. I've also never seen these older styles of videos before and I had a bit of a chuckle at the idea of you playing Dark Souls while giving a measured essay on discriptors in English to the people watching your stream.

[@CH4R10T_TV]

I appreciate the thoughtful response. One thing I'd like to point out is that the distinction you're describing is technically the distinction between poetics and hermeneutics, but the caveat I'd add is that English Language (or Language Arts, usually) and English Literature are folded together for the practical purpose that you can't really teach one without the other. How a sentence comes together and what it means are technically two different exercises that are also the same exercise. I think the confusion for a lot of K-12 students arises in that things like poetry and grammar are barely taught anymore, so we're left with lessons in hermeneutics and histories (so-and-so the author lived in such-and-such period and therefore was influenced by this when they wrote that) divorced from breakdowns of how the thing itself works, but attempting to grant the same understanding. This is also why most KZbin videos discussing works of media tend to focus on either describing the thing or interpreting it, and the really stand-out essays (to me at least) are the ones that look at how a piece comes together in terms of its "moves" (which tend to be made by people with education in film analysis for the reason that poetic understandings of frame are fundamental to it). Actually, the reason why I wanted to even make this video was because I'm working on a much, much longer video (and potentially more) deploying poetics in video game design, and I kind of wanted to write something small about how people intuitively engage in hermeneutic analysis. Sometimes with a real bombshell on the way it's nice to do something that takes a bit less effort.

[@frostrider3704]

@@CH4R10T_TV The lack of grammar is, I think, where a lot of the issues arise. Without those building blocks a child can't fully understand why they find something meaningful in a concrete way. It's like any art form, if you don't get taught the fundementals of perspective, you can't truly appreciate when someone breaks those rules to create something beautiful and new. I'm not a pendantic when it comes to grammar, in fact when writing creatively it's important to understand where to shortcut and move away from those rules. I could write a whole 2 hour rant on X-BAR theory and all the other degree level language lessons that are just there to impede the creative focus even more. That is the failing of English Language, that it gets too focused into the building blocks that it forgets the beauty of the language behind it. I'm bad at poetry and I find books that stray to far into the literature extremes dull and a bit full of themselves. That being said, I will spend an hour finding the right word to create a descripitve sentence that counjures exactly what I want the reader to see. I love how in Nine Princes Of Amber, Roger Zelazny pins down Corwin's character in the first few paragraphs of the book. I love the interplay of words and how it creates clarity of scene and pacing. I love language as an art form seperate to Literature and how, once the building blocks of grammar are understood, you can play with them to make something beautiful. I don't hate literature, I just understand it isn't for me. I agree that in the basic teaching of English, they can look the same and probably are to some extent. But by explaining the differences early, you can create an understanding and respect of those differences, rather than just making it another itteration of "the curtains are blue" discourse which doesn't get anyone anywhere. It just gets reduced to "arty farty nonsense" which does literature a huge diservice. It's a cultural touchstone. Being able to layer meaning with every word in an artistic artform is an incredibly important thing to learn and appreiciate. Even if you eventually reach the conclusion that it isn't for you. I look forward to your essay on poetry in video games. Games as an art form are so under-rated and deserve some love.

[@FireTrainer92]

I'm realizing that that curtains are blue meme really encapsulates how people don't think about the deeper implications of their own thoughts and only look at the surface level of what they're actually saying.

[@Flatscores]

The issue is sometimes precisely a dull and reductionist reading of "symbolism" in texts. That is - symbols are meant to be interpreted, there is one interpretation and stating that interpretation concludes the work. "Curtains are blue" - "this means sadness". This is almost as anti-intellectual as the literalist reading. In this case the students are correct to object. Sontag's Against Interpretation is absolutely on point here. We ought to be more interested in how a text works, rather than providing a closed interpretation. Good analysis ought to bring out from the text what it does and how it does it - how it communicates with the reader, with the author, with the cultural context, with other texts and how interpretation literally changes a text.

[@kertchu]

I have actually wondered about writing a story where the symbolism actually means something completely different than expected. For example: the curtains are blue means the person has a lot of pent up rage at society.

[@br1na332]

Mini video essay on memes/ art critique to Artorias of the Abyss?! Heck yeah!

[@Meepersa]

I used to be one of those "The curtains are just blue" people and really didn't like a lot of my high school English classes and the seemingly nonsensical analysis we were sometimes doing. What finally made it all click for me was later writing classes and better media literacy, which filled in a crucial missing link that was never discussed in the context of literature. That being that sometimes the author doesn't intend there to be meaning in something they wrote, but it ends up carrying more meaning anyway because of how it fits in to other things. And then if you combine that with death of the author and similar ideas you end up at a point where you can pull any meaning you want from a work, you just gotta pull evidence from the text to support it.

[@dragonslaya16]

This has always bugged me because my litmus test for a claim is whether the contextual evidence provided by the work at least tangentially demonstrates what the person is interpreting. It's why the statement "why are the curtains blue." Is meaningless. Without additional context it's impossible to know whether or not this hypothetical teacher is correct.

[@mkjmoon8263]

Going to have to go find the GoT video you mentioned, very thought provoking stuff

[@JuliusKingsleyXIII]

Great video. I think what you say about how people assume a simple math formula hides complexity that can't grasp but don't extend the same thing to language and words is very true, and I'd never really considered the comparison before. I think it might be a Dunning Kruger thing. Most people assume they are bad at math, or at least claim to be, without even trying to use it. Meanwhile, I think the average person assumes they are good at their native language simply because they speak it every day which is about as far from truth as can be. As for the curtains are blue meme, I think it has become a thing both because people tend to be a bit dumb but also because it rings very true for a lot of people. It's the result of our education system (speaking as a US citizen, born and raised) being such a gross failure. When you take a question like that and try to enforce "correct, incorrect" or assign a point value out to it as opposed to allowing someone to answer it openly and honestly without judgement, you are making a big mistake. And yeah, a lot of people interpret that as teachers -- people who have unduely assigned authority who may abuse it or simply not even be qualified to teach -- trying to enforce their interpretation onto other people. "Well I say it means this" is not a productive conversation. Even before that, we just don't do a good job of teaching people to engage with stuff on that level -- either as a matter of ability or willingness. People hate school. Why do they care what color the curtains are. They want to go home and play video games, get away from their bullies, or go hang out with their friends. People who manage to genuinely get something out of the educational system are the exception, not the rule. That much is obvious my simply looking around. Having a high paying job or being in a position of power means nothing when you look at the things people actually say, do, and think. And as someone who worked with college students and actually helped them understand and improve their own thinking I can tell you it's not great. As a personal example, I had an English teacher on a test -- the exact person who probably did write this question on a test -- accuse me of copying another student's answer once on an open ended question. Me and this kid openly hated each other, and may have even sat at different tables. We both did not know the answer to this question, but otherwise did well on the test, and we happened to write in the same kind of "shit eating grin" type response because we were both assholes like that. And this woman genuinely sat there and tried to accuse us of cheating. So the adult, college educated woman who is supposed to be imparting us high school students with critical thinking skills and media literacy evidently had about none of those to speak of for herself. Or at least, was unwilling to extend the most reasonable of graces -- possibly as a result of being overworked and underpaid, IDK.

[@LHfrut]

If the author meant the curtains are blue in a simply literal sense then I suppose the author unwittingly conveyed deeper meaning through the connotation of their word choice & context by which their work has been read & appreciated, & they did so in a way that is commonly understood to be replicable by aspiring authors who may desire to convey analogous depth in the interpretation of their own work.

[@Tembies-jk4tx]

I really dig the talk. The beauty of art is not just that it can be looked at and enjoyed literally, but used as a shared cultural experience. A touchstone, beacon, or some other flowery word for something that we can refer back to and compare/contrast things. Although I don't really hold it against anyone that ever wondered why they have to learn the curtain is blue - it's important to ask that about anything you do and if it's truly worth your time or attention. I think art is a much more important tool for human development, and has been, than most average literalists (is that what you call them?) give it credit for.

[@Tuvella1]

Not to be weird for commenting so much but I love your channeellsls RAAAAAAH!!!

[@TheKatamariguy]

The meme is very anti-intellectual. On the other hand, I think it is admittedly true that the colors of things in books are often not overly interesting to think about compared to everything else present in the scene.

[@Cameron-yq5ug]

As of 5:30pm on Nov 3rd, there are 69 likes and thus I bestow upon this video the ritual phrase: Nice

[@lancemagmer9701]

Ive seen this as film critic, Teacher-The reason these curtains are blue is because bla bla bla. On the DVD commentary " Franks grand ma had a spar3 curtain we could destroy

[@TheRaven7]

The average high school English class is awful at teaching literature. You’re given the literature and you’re given the tools but you aren’t told they’re tools and you aren’t really taught how to use them outside of fitting a dictionary definition.

[@dumbledoratheexplora1140]

I think the lack of context around the quote "the curtains are blue" makes it really hard to tell if the meme is truly anti intellectualism or not.

[@SDM-Zone]

I think deriving meaning from media is fine, the only issue is people talk with authority about what "meaning means". It can be personal meaning to you, but to then teach others or lecture them on how this means that other thing, I think that value is often lost. My friend had a similar issue because he kept getting told about Lord of the Rings and how its all inspired by world war 1. Imagine his shock when starting an audio book and theres this entire preamble of the author's words directly calling everyone who says this a moron and walking the reader through the steps on why it isn't about world war 1. Theres death of the author but then theres changing meaning, characters and themes based on poorly understanding something. I think its best we respect an authors intentions when speaking about things in public media. "He didn't plan this, but this book is so gay because these two men are good friends and are sincere so I read that as a homosexual relationship." would totally be fine when shipping two characters of a book together for example. Issues arise when the sheer psychic waves of fans forcibly changes a character in even the author's mind. Thats where I think "flanderisation" comes from, but it can also just change a character. JFK from Clone High went from a charming fuck boi Jock to a Himbo monogamist with emotional problems because Tiktok teens found him funny and needed to sand off his bad character traits to fully like someone.

[@beyvntarson3123]

Not everyone prescribing what they felt a text meant/about is saying they know what the author was intending. Those are separate conversations.

[@SDM-Zone]

​@@beyvntarson3123 A recent example happening right now, is why I think this is an issue. In Sousou no Frieren a currently ongoing anime, there exists a race of creatures called demons that are explictly and actually ontologically evil. They look like normal people but are all just maxxed out evil. A lot of leftist twitter people seem to not understand that this isn't a metaphor or comparison to another race of people IRL. There is no authorial intent there, its just an evil fantasy creature. Now the problem arises with leftists feeling like saying "some people are just evil and we should all just kill them" is promoting genocidal thinking in the audience who watches this anime. It isn't. Its just a mechanism of the world they live in. I think this is fine. But there are people who are now convinced that 1. A Japanese person secretly made this entire plot point of white people with horns as a dogwhistle against discriminated groups in general around the world. And 2. This will be effective propaganda to average people and they will become more fascist as a result and hate on underprivliged groups. I think this is silly, I think they ran away with the meaning. I think going around and telling people they are watching a genocidal show because there are antagonistic fantasy races, is not good and they misunderstand everything.

[@andrwblood9162]

It is true that some things that humans do exists as merely for the aesthetic and isn't art. It seems as something to bring into the conversation. Whether thats a hard wall of separation between these categories is another.

[@chrissetti1390]

I think of this from a writer's perspective. Why did you include the colour of the curtains? The editing process will cut out as many useless words as possible, so why is the color of the curtains important enough to survive that culling?

[@ProudPlatypus]

What if the curtains were pink? If a choice of colour has no significance or meaning.

[@OblongBurrbank]

Something something writers are 100% the type of nerd to overthink their color choices :p /hj

[@Demonic_Culture_Nut]

Sometimes þe curtains are blue to represent someþing, sometimes þey're blue because it's þe character's favorite color, sometimes þey're blue because it brings þe room togeþer, sometimes þey're blue because a neurotypical designed a room to -make þemself feel good- help people on þe spectrum destimulate wiþout consulting anyone wiþ any form of neurodivergence.

[@reddawn1873]

I have yet to ever care about literator or find it engaging

[@ZoomieDeer]

If the curtains being blue has no bigger meaning or significance in the story, that's bad writing

[@Gloomdrake]

At the very least it tells you something about the person who put them up

[@littlebigphil]

Who are you to say that's bad writing? Why can't having an insignificant detail be an intentional part of the piece?

[@Gloomdrake]

@@littlebigphil it's not bad writing because any detail given has meaning by default, even if it doesn't factor into the overall narrative. For example, the curtains being blue could tell that the character who put them up just likes blue. Not necessarilyimportant, but that's still characterization. But what if the character who put them up DOESN'T like blue? Maybe the curtains were a hand-me-down. There's so much implied characterization there. Or it could be that the curtains were like that when they moved in, and despite hating the look, they haven't gotten around to changing them. All of that could be unintended, but it's still there. It's value-neutral writing

[@ZoomieDeer]

@@Gloomdrake If the blue curtains tell you something about the person who put them up, that would be the curtains having meaning / significance

[@ZoomieDeer]

@@littlebigphil Because if it's not there for a reason, it's detracting from everything that is. It doesn't need to be clearly understood by everyone, it just needs to have some sort of intention, even if it's just meaningful to the author