The Death of Live Service Games

[@BlackGold-fc7tu]

Singleplayer games that need an internet connection is criminal

[@Popikawaii]

That's why they try to shoe-horn in "multiplayer" like D4 :D

[@SpecShadow]

gives me flashbacks to that Microsoft/Xbox lead of some branch, who tweeted "Why would anyone want to live here?" when people were unhappy (to put it really mildly) with new Xbox requiring internet connection (to boot and play in the first place) and dropping physical games That was more than a decade ago

[@GhostLyricist]

The only reason they do this is so they have the possibility of adding microtransactions/ads in the future (if they don't have them already). They want people hooked up to the matrix.

[@Stirlingsays]

Are criminal: 'is' is singular, 'are' is plural.

[@DarchrowTheEnigma]

@@Stirlingsays So if is is singular, does are are plural ? Or is are are is ? Are is are ? or Are is is ?

[@Charsept]

Asmongold is right. Fortnite shows up, makes $3 billion in a year and the whole industry has been "chasing the dragon" ever since.

[@ziebus904]

Isnt that the same with anythijg?

[@mmmmmmcreamy766]

its not just fortnite there have been live service games doing well and making bank for ages before fortnite was even released. But, you're correct that fortnite did popularize it even more.

[@bobbobber4810]

A lot of companies also did battle royales for that reason. That didn't least at least...

[@NeoBeelzemon]

Fortnite is not shy to put any kind of skins. Just look how people gone mad because of furry skins or skins of Goku and Vejeta

[@adamjohn0]

​@NeoBeelzemon true, also just having good and varied skins is a great money maker in a decent game.

[@mrgtmodernretrogamingtech6891]

AAA Game Companies still act as if were still in a lockdown...

[@A_Goat]

Despite how awful some of the AAA are, they are few out of many. In my opinion, all these new "indie" companies, or the subsequent larger companies who are investing in them, that essentially spawn out of nowhere with short popularity and then disappear are really diluting the genre. Flooding the market with their soon to shut down games, riddled with every predatory marketing tactic. They just appear as a new studio, tank their games, rebrand themselves as a new studio and repeat. Or they start a campaign, collect loads of donations and then run off with the money. In 2024 you don't just buy a game. You buy what is supposed to be a game, it isn't what was claimed, and then you do unpaid labor, bug reports for them. You're just a lab rat in their experiment. It's not about making something for you. It's about making money.

[@jjglaser]

The more selection the better, but im going to only spend my time in 1 game mostly. So if they cant best destiny 2 then they might as well give up.

[@Hamurator]

That's not off. Considering modern development times these games might have been already in development when lockdowns were still around.

[@bisky-z3s]

They're planning on it. What do they know? 👁🗻

[@naomikirisaki]

🤣

[@mattvoelker241]

Everyone wants to capture lightning in a bottle, but chances of lightning striking the same place twice are miniscule.

[@SasisaPlays]

Грохочет гром Сверкает молния в ночи А на холме Стоит безумец и кричит: «Сейчас поймаю тебя в сумку, И сверкать ты будешь в ней! Мне так хочется, чтоб стала ты моей!»

[@andrewhazlewood4569]

Except in the real world where lightning hits the same place very often.

[@No_Ones_gay_for_moleman]

​@@andrewhazlewood4569So a better analogy would be winning the lottery, cause the chances of winning it at least once is a biatch

[@BubbleoniaRising]

99% of my gaming time these days is spent playing and modding old single player games. I don't care if an entire industry of bad "live service" games and their developers go bankrupt and starve, I refuse to do chores for billionaires, or be "content" for "content creators."

[@nostromo6473]

Highly recommend Abiotic Factor for a fun single player experience!

[@unifiedhorizons2663]

soul like brother any thing souls like mix or good is fun to play

[@user-zn7he5rm5t]

Plenty of indie projects old and recent are most decent as well

[@brawlmasterthesecond]

Hello yeah man! Just finished GTA IV modded again

[@liquidefreet]

They expect gamers to do the same mindless daily battle pass grind on 10 different games every day forever, they are out of their mind.

[@insinYT]

its actually unfortunate, but i know a few people that do that for about 4-5 games daily

[@LastMinuteGuess]

@@insinYT I was one of them and miserable, but had terrible compulsive addiction behavior for some reason. I still play live service titles from time to time but I have made a commitment to not drop a PENNY on any of them. Do not allow gaming companies to dictate your gaming habits; these games are not your part time job. This has made my gaming much better.

[@gingerbill128]

@@LastMinuteGuess sensible

[@davids8127]

Thank god I don't have OCD

[@DamienCloud]

​@@insinYTsame, we need to deliver them from their pain and make them play good games

[@乂]

Live service games are failing because they lack quality and content, while chasing money over player experience.

[@hulkkrogan420]

Truer words were never spoken

[@Ralathar44]

Diablo Immortal for example. But failure for you an not for them because its first month alone they made 49 million.

[@Jkaninteangemittnamn]

maybe its like this -they make agood game then it goes to the people who entertain the service - the people who did the game does new - now the entertainers are in power or one could call the lifesupporters with max profit in the sight -milk thier audince while they can - if they did 10 million with 5 people -whoa huge win and when players leave what do they care and what do they care about their leagacy -Does EA ,Activision care - they care about the buck they in a short period can deliver to the shareholders

[@Revenant-oq9ts]

There's also the deeper issue of competing for people's time. A live service game demands you invest time in it, and failing to do so leads to missing out. This means people stick to existing live services rather than invest time in a new one at the risk of losing progress in a current one.

[@Buhllake]

Live service isn’t dying, shit games are dying and there’s a lot of them

[@divinehatred6021]

why did an awesome game named Battlerite had to die and all of those pathetic games somewhat live

[@WhyDoesYTUseHandlesNow]

Ikr, Once Human and The Finals are both extremely successful live service games

[@nickdos6218]

Exactly, that's what happening to the games' industry at large. It's not failing just because the crappy studios/games are going under.

[@Velacroix]

It's harder for newer titles to prove they'll be here in 5 years given higher overhead and production costs of yesterday's Arknights and Fates.

[@Tearintime]

@@WhyDoesYTUseHandlesNowonce human is gonna die hard since they’re resetting players every season

[@Slenderirl]

Imagine being reported and banned in Concord for not saying the right pronouns 💀

[@Joe-in2kp]

The fun part of showing cosmetics off, to me, has always been ones acquired by luck or skill. Not by me just having a job, like everyone else. What makes showing them off appealing, is that it can impress other people or make them envious. However, it doesn't accomplish that when everyone knows you just wasted money on it and there are at least 5 people in your game with the same exact cosmetic. Not only that, but when you used to see someone with the same cosmetic you would know you have something in common with them (Like you beat the campaign on legendary, or spent hours finding easter eggs) and it would sometimes build friendships. "Oh hey, that guy loves finding easter eggs me too. Maybe he wants to pair up to do the easter egg that requires two people." or "Bro, I see you have the [legendary cosmetic item], wasnt that last mission so fucking hard. I'm one step away from unlocking the [Some progression cosmetic], wanna pair up and get it together?" Sure some cosmetics show you completed the battle pass. But again, so what? So does everyone else. It doesn't foster any sub social groups. Halo 3 was awesome for that reason. Some people loved campaign, forge, social slayer, easter eggs, etc. And has cosmetics, events, and modes to indicate that. So many smaller groups of sub communities sprang from that, and its probably in part why Halo 3 was the best social gaming experience whether you were a guy who liked to fuck around, or a guy who liked to be competitive. Cosmetics used to tell you about the person playing, but now all it tells you is they probably have a job. Buying cosmetics only maybe indicates you guys share a common aesthetic for a shiny thing or glowing thing. A shallow and vapid social primer.

[@MasterGhostf]

Agreed. Paid cosmetics don't mean much to me unless I personally like them. Like the Ult Bunny skin from First Descendant. I think its boring. Its just a bunny suit and its not cool at all. Its just sexy but nothing else.

[@brawlmasterthesecond]

Well said

[@wildcoyot3768]

Exactly, i remember in hslo 3 if you saw somebody with haysbusa, or especially recon armor you were in awe, because of what it took to unlock those things

[@Joe-in2kp]

I also think games were better socially when online was more culturally diverse. Cosmetics were a big way to express that. In addition, although I DO like SBMM, that fact it seems more tuned I think it inevitably kills that social aspects games used to have. Where you meet people based on skill in common and not other things. Yeah bro is fun to play with competitively, but outside of that I don't care. I remember growing up with friend groups where it was like that one 30 year old guy who is only on at night, that squeeker 12 year old who was on 24/7 in the summer or after 3pm, the teenager same age as you that you are good friends with, the kid with the shitty mic but is crazy awesome good at the game, etc. I had a person to play with no matter the time of day or duration of the year. I also had a new flavor of experience based on who I played with. It wasnt the same rinse and repeat experience that gets boring after a few months of grinding.

[@khaalmalki4039]

As long as people are having fun that's what matters. Not every game needs to follow the same formula otherwise the same problem would occur with games being very similar and formulaic

[@SilverFox86rus]

The problem is not that they have failed live game services. The problem is that their priority is to make a successful gold mine/casino, rather than a good game. No one argues that there are good live services. Everyone knows that the priority is not the consumer, but corporate greed.

[@logosys5015]

don't even need to be good game. just put some "bunnies" with few skins and you rake in cash ;) but guess the message is more important

[@SchifferThe2nd]

They are too focused on bleeding their customers dry.

[@Diopside.]

@@logosys5015 First Descendant is ahead to fall, don't worry.

[@asgarzigel]

Live service games have the same problem as MMOs, even if they are all great games, the market can only support a relatively small amount of them. The average player has time for one or MAYBE 2 of these if they actively play them. So you end up with people who stay loyal to one game for a long time and might only try out a new game or players who jump to the flavor of the month all the time. So you end up with promising looking numbers when a new one comes out, but it quickly falls off when people go back to "their" game or go to the next big thing that releases.

[@svenstevenson2245]

The only "good" "live services" are the ones that have an "honest" approach to their "live" portion. The only ones I really consider to be so however are OLD SCHOOL subscription MMO's I pay monthly for access to the game, that money pays for servers, developers and profit, the really good live services massively reinvest back into the game. Most "AAA" "live services" are a storefront/market place first.

[@kibousn1686]

More like "there's now way too many live service games, so people are forced to pick their favorite and stick to it"

[@Pentti_Hilkuri]

More like most of them are hot garbage made for the "modern audience"...

[@CmoIsDaNam3i]

Same. Personally I'm just sticking to XDefiant for my competitive shooters, then in terms of co-op games I'm looking forward to Killing Floor 3 and when I get more space with an external SSD Helldivers 2 will be next, and my current single player games are Borderlands 2, Superhot and Super: Mind, Control, Delete. Honestly no extra room for any more with those 4 and in 2025 one more game to add on top. Might be time for devs to shift back to single player games really, because like you said its probably just too many live service games really. Just too many with not enough time.

[@Vexreal_]

Maybe hold off on the helldivers 2. All the other ganes you talked about are dope though ​@@CmoIsDaNam3i

[@Qefx]

AKA Fortnite lol

[@matthewmspace]

Yep. I just play Warzone and Honkai: Star Rail as my live service games. I don't have time for other live service games.

[@erq96]

My favorite quote from Suicide Squad KTJL marketing: "Captain Boomerang will use a mix of smgs, sniper rifles, and rocket launchers" Captain Boomerang BOOMERANG

[@bl8388]

Captain Boomerang broke gotta use backup rocket launcher.

[@FoxyCAMTV]

We are talking games here,not trash 😁

[@joesantoro4964]

I have a feeling Suicide Squad was conceived as an entirely different game and a franchise was just inserted into it. There is no reason to have those characters using guns. Not only that, they don't even have any unique items or weapon's. They just share the same inventory items for all characters. The only difference between characters are they way the move and jump.

[@vergillives9890]

​@@joesantoro4964because it was and probably rejected and this another project they gutted in progress

[@uncleulysses2328]

@@joesantoro4964I thought the same thing after finding out it was live service lol. I thought it was a multiplayer story game I thought the same thing about avengers. Finding out recently that those games were “live service” is just like “wow who the fuck wants this?” How can those even work as a live service it just sounds dumb and terrible from the get go

[@paulthompson8649]

Live service games are like jobs. How many full time jobs can you have at once. Maybe you have a part time job, put in about 20 hours a week. But you still need your main job, 40 hours. But this other job is asking you spend maybe 15 hours there… at first. But they have cool perks and the place is nice. People are nice. So now you wanna put more time in. So you start creeping up the time. Now you have 2 full time jobs and 1 part time job. So now you’re spending 100 hours a week trying to stay employed at these 3 jobs. Now the reality is there’s only 168 hours in a week. And then you need 8 hours a night to sleep. Ok, lol, 4. That leaves 40 hours a week to do everything else that isn’t working and sleeping. I can’t do that. I want 1 good game that’s my “full time job” and maybe another one I can dabble in, my “part time job”. But even that’s dumb because I used to play several games at once. Live service has ruined gaming.

[@hideshisface1886]

It is exactly the same situation as "everyone wants to snatch this Call of Duty crowd" trend that plagued the gaming 15 something years ago. Marketing does not seem to comprehend the idea of market saturation. Perpetually online or online-focused games require a lot of attention - this means the players usually have choice to focus only on one, maybe two such games at the same time. And why would they choose a newcomer to the genre, when original is still strong? Why choose some new looter shooter when Warframe is still kicking ass? Why choose new MOBA, when LOL and DOTA are there? Why go with new shooter if CoD, Battlefield, Rainbow Six and CS still go strong despite numerous hiccups? Horde shooters? You have L4D2 and Deep Rock Galactic. Battle Royale? PUBG and Fortnite. Team-based hero shooters have Team Fortress 2, the great grandfather of the genre and games like Overwatch and Paladins. Looters have Tarkov. Vehicular combat has World of Tanks and Warthunder. RTS games have Age of Empires, Company of Heroes and Starcraft. Trying to break into these niches with mere copycat titles is just not going to work - and most of those titles are just that - copycats, usually just with single gimmicks making them "different".

[@Skumtomten1]

Yes but making a standalone, complete game without live service is fine even is a saturated market. Making it live service however, means you need to retain players to keep the income streaming, and thats near impossible for a new game in an oversaturated and extablished market. It was the same with card games, once hearthstone became really popular you saw a bunch of new cards games coming up. Almost everyone flopped because people had already invested time and money into hearthstone. I don't understand how coorporations or people in management position cannot understand this simple concept.

[@hideshisface1886]

@@Skumtomten1 Hilariously... these companies seem to fall victim to the same "fear of missing out" that they exploit among gamers. It is "quick, jump onto this genre while it is popular and rack profit" bandwagon mentality. They want to jump onto it... or they will miss out on a profit window. I would go so far and call this a poetic justice of sorts.

[@angel_of_rust]

bro really mentioned two sponsorcore games for vehicular combat. lmao mario kart is arguably vehicular combat

[@mcz1945]

You're right, we should have never moved past PONG. What a terrible take. Just because Call of Duty exists doesn't mean other people can't try and improve upon it. That is literally why we got video games, hell, why we got the modern society that we live in. Someone sees something and says "hmm, I think I can make it better." and if 1 in a milion succeeds then we all benefit from it. When the first shitty FPS came out the people at id said "great concept, let's make a real game" and they made Wolfenstein 3D and DOOM. Over-saturation is a myth and total BS. Look at anything and you can see there are a million derivatives of it. This drives the prices down and improves the market. The whole reason why we moved from hovels to space ships in a few years is because people were finally allowed to go all out on creating a profit driven, capitalist, society. Imagine this, a movie of a calibre like Lord of the Rings would release once or even twice a month, would you say "Ugh, another incredible movie" or be actually happy that we are getting good content? Same with game. There is no reason why there can't be 20 successful MOBAs around each with a 50k players or even less. You don't need sixty million people playing a game for it to be success.

[@hideshisface1886]

@@mcz1945 Some nice strawman you've got there "Just because Call of Duty exists doesn't mean other people can't try and improve upon it." Yeah, but if you are just making "another Call of Duty", unless it is going to be absolutely, positively amazing, people have no real reason to even look at it - it will get drowned as another clone. To wedge yourself in occupied, pre-existing niche, the game needs to be either a massive jump in quality, have something very new and distinct about it, or preferably both. And oversaturation is not a myth - look at all the multiplayer-centric games that either die and fall into obscurity - there is only a place for relatively few big ones. Your point about LoTR is also a miss - movies, unlike primarily multiplayer titles do not require constant attention - you watch one movie, you go to another one. But even here, if you start pumping movies within the same genre and theme over and over and over and over again without any innovation or original plot - even if their individual quality is good - people will get tired of it eventually. Because how many times can you watch the same thing?

[@CZProductions]

Almost like if you just follow the Fromsoft and Capcom plan of Releasing a good game, and then MAYBE make a DLC expansion for it, then people will buy all your stuff! Crazy how the successful strategy is the exact same one that we had 20 years ago too 😂😂

[@jeremesmith9266]

No kidding, imagine that!

[@BrandonDenny-we1rw]

Yeahhhh so Fromsoft planned on the dlc from day one and youre a blind simp if you couldnt see that. Elden Ring was shamelessly released before being finished because finishing it would be too costly. Quit glazing a half assed barely finished game

[@juliandib6354]

@@BrandonDenny-we1rw 🤡

[@Red-hot_Pyro]

But then game like overwatch and Fortnite had to ruin it.

[@juliandib6354]

@@BrandonDenny-we1rw 🤡

[@None38389]

Can't really say live service games are dying when gacha is still booming.

[@zynet_eseled]

Wait until they wake up as we have.

[@drdynanite]

​@@zynet_eselednot a chance

[@1Onsokumaru1]

Cause gacha are great. They’re doing things differently while live service games are all the same shizz

[@haltthewizard3107]

@@1Onsokumaru1 lol

[@JackHugeman]

@@zynet_eseled gambling addicts

[@shokill]

We can only be stretched so thin. Time, money, effort... Trying to keep up with one or two live service games and having a full time job sounds like it's basically being in a polyamorous relationship... And that's excluding trying to use some of your free time to socialize / go out. Yeeesh.

[@TheJoyfulReaper]

Live Service Games that are fueled by gold-rush aspirations are failing, older live services that actually have content are doing just fine

[@AxelRyman]

Mostly gonna talk about Multiversus cause that one I have experience with, but for the most part, Yong didn't provide proper info or providing details regarding it. 1: There are 2 big spikes in players, the first being the Beta Launch and the second one being the game's official launch, with the dead player count between the dates due to the game being unavailable and being worked on (Only certain people had access, hence why you saw 1000 player counts). Multiversus being a Fighting game, a genre that only tends to keep people who are competitive due to the PVP focus, is also a factor in this. 2: Live service games in general will always peak around it's launch period and see significant drops over the first month or so. The ones who drop the game are the ones who try the game out and don't like it, those who wanted to see what the hype is, or those who just wanted a casual experience and only play it every so often (and/or with friends). Those who stay with it for long periods time will be those who are competitive or just enjoy it for what it is. This number is the most important one, and for MV, 4k is still good, but not as good as it could be of course (This is where I agree with Yong). 3: In conjunction with 2, as mentioned by Maximillian Dood, who has worked on fighting games (KI for example) and has knowledge of these sorts of things, even he said you shouldn't be expecting launch day player counts to last. It's how many you keep afterwards. And so far, for MV, within the past month it's been as high as 6k to as low as 4k of players on steam alone logged in. EVO happening now too and considering a number of people who play are also Smash players, they're likely competing there and not playing right now (and people attending the event). Dunno if an MV community tournament is happening but if it is, it can influence numbers too. Summed up, it's definitely keeping a steady number of players on Steam alone (Game is multiplatform so can't speak for EGS, Xbox, or PS), which is good for the game. 4: Moving away from player count, the game is missing some needed features for a PVP-focused fighting game, and made some changes from beta that weren't that good. Too many different currencies, trying to obtain them isn't exactly good so unlocking characters is too much of a grind, the PVE content is mediocre, ranked mode was added in beta but hasn't been added to the live launch, they removed post-game stats (Though re-added within the past month), and the events are generally just the same each time but also time-gated (Progress for Agent Smith has been available since launch and took over a month to actually be able to unlock him, which seems weird to show him like that and not make him be available outside that). I enjoyed the game myself for the time I played but not enough to keep me interested long term (Unless a character I really like owned by WB is added). In terms of Free To Play Smash-likes though, there's more competition for it that's friendlier to a non-paying crowd compared to Multiversus.

[@rich22221]

I hope it survives for a while, it's the only game I play (apart from CS2 for weekly crate for $)

[@AxelRyman]

@@rich22221 They did just announce some new characters and there were leaks for some others. Will likely see a flux of people join when they come out. With how they're maintaining they should be fine if they're making enough profit off skins and battlepasses, so will need to give it some time, but if payers steadily drop more yeah it won't make it sadly.

[@R3AL-AIM]

18:55, LET ME STOP YOU RIGHT THERE HOMIE! Borderlands was the first "looter-shooter" and it was not a liver service game. It was a 4 player co-op FPSRPG. Bungie took that formula and mixed it with Halo, gave us Destiny - then other games showed Bungie that Destiny could be monetized. Don't discredit the looter shooter genre like that lmao

[@Grassdia]

Obviously they existed beforehand but they were live service looter shooters now were they?

[@alexander1055]

Excuse me? Destiny was heavily monetized from the start. It just wasn't mainly microtransactions. You had to buy the base game plus every single expansion. If you wanted to keep up you had to keep spending money, otherwise your gear was worse and the other people around you had an advantage over you.

[@themadtagger6450]

Hellgate london was the first looter shooter well before borderlands.

[@TazzyBoy]

@@alexander1055 That isn't heavily monetized. Thats the norm set by wow back in the day. And is the only reason you kept getting destiny. Servers ain't free and neither is the work for updates and expansions. Really, back in the day if you wanted a single update for a game, you had to buy the entire game again as there was no updating the game.

[@Dommifax]

"liver service game" made me chuckle - sounds like a euphemism for spending the evening with your best friends drinking yourself stupid

[@IcyBlaze616]

I'll never forgive the Live Service Games model for killing Platinum Games. (i know they're not dead, but they've never really recovered and make new products like they did before one of their executives got the brilliant idea that the company known for offbeat character action games with near flawless mechanics should make a generic looking live service game that's exclusive to Microsoft)

[@DebbieDickens]

Reminder that Platninum created a new office dedicated to making GaaS games and after Bablyon's Fall flopping, their brilliant CEO claims they'll continue this direction until they get it right. I have an inkling this is one of the reasons, if not, THE reason why Hideki left and it makes one wonder what this means for what was going to be his next game for Platninum; Project GG.

[@ROBDEWAND]

They just dont make em like they used to anymore sadly, things like transformers devestation and MGR were peak games.

[@ROBDEWAND]

@@purplepum4 ooh yeah forgot they worked on that one, good point that one was good, wouldnt say as good as the older ones but a really solid game.

[@xXSH1N0B1Xx]

​@@ROBDEWANDi liked MGRR never played byonetta.. but about transformers game I havent seen or played a single good TF game since the ps2 movie tie in game.. that game was the shit.. big map free roam transform whenever you want cause mayhem.. and good missions.. Like they just don't get it iknow its like a activision game (TT) thry do the lego shizzle games ithink But never again did I experience a tf game with so much freedom so I stopped caring

[@ROBDEWAND]

@@xXSH1N0B1Xx man devestation is literly metal gear rising/ dmc but whit the old school transformers it is that good used to be on steam too before they lost the rights to it, but a ps3 /xbox 360 copy still works like a charm, banger music too

[@aceathor]

I play only old games now...

[@youtubasoarus]

Same. The only hope is going backwards.

[@karthik7282]

Give some old game recommendations

[@numbersbubble]

I'm not even playing elden ring, I'm getting so tired of open worlds

[@youtubasoarus]

@@karthik7282 Banjoe Kazooie on N64. Ratchet and Clank on PS2.

[@larsbjrnson3101]

​@@karthik7282Bioshock.

[@gsczo]

Live service as a concept will NEVER die. Bad live service games will ALWAYS die, because people will not choose to spend their time there, and as a consequence developers give up. Back when MOBAs were a new thing, and League of Legends was new and massive, there were so many MOBA attempts dying left and right. There were also many live service shooter games dying, and so many other types of games that just didn't suceed, and I know most of them because I used to play ONLY live service games... this is not new, in fact, live service games are coming out less often, but they'll just die the same way they did before. Live service games to succeed and make millions need to have a great gameloop, and become super engaging, the truth is that they don't have it, and MOBAs like League of Legends and Dota have a very solid and addicting gameplay loop. Battle Royales are a good example of so many developers trying to find a space with their game, because it's also a very solid concept, however a few big hits are already the standard for most people, so it's never easy to capture those players to your game. What live service games need are more ideas, new gameplay loops, that WORKS, if that doesn't happen, they'll just never attract a good chunk of players, and give up eventually, they crave a constant audience, and as a player it's awesome to have a game that you enjoy being developed for years. That used to be huge for asian/korean MMOs, they still are massive, and so many also die out, but koreans never give up trying to land a new MMO hit every single time. They understand that if you get engaged and addicted to playing a game and you love to play with other people, it's really nice to get constant updates for that game and make it a profit machine, the problem is that they also cross that path of P2W so that's another discussion entirely. Live service is not dying, it always did, because the best option for each niche already hold the market for themselves, either you somehow make it better (too risky and hard, not worth it) or you create an entire new gameplay experience (also risky, but at least probably worth the shot). POE with ARPGs is the same example.

[@sycamorewest]

It's the Highlander rule - there can only be one (live service), but the when there was the first people thought it would a phase shift and overinvested in the boom

[@minebidw1291]

Happens everywhere

[@mariocruz591]

Who's the 1dt one then pubg or fortnite?

[@Boss_Fight_Index_muki]

Did the consecutive failure of 3 live services games by SquareEnix around 2021-22 not teach other publishers this route _is not_ a path to success? Babylon's Fall Marvel's Avengers Chocobo GP

[@vollkerball1]

Yeah, issue is that FFXIV is making bank and they are in the "positive" still

[@SakuraAvalon]

Live Services are like the Lottery. The people that play don't care how many lose. Someone won, and that's convinced them that they can too.

[@respox2191]

@@SakuraAvalon Playing the lottery costs pocket change. Developing a AAA live service game costs tens of millions of dollars. It's not the same level of investment.

[@qunas101]

gambler mindset. 99% of game developers stop making live service games right before hitting it big

[@YazzPott]

@@respox2191and if you happened to make fortnite, you could have funded 10,000 attempts. That is what they are chasing.

[@lostevesy]

Sad the amount of money wasted, studios destroyed, games that could have been .. cancelled. All in the search of "all the money", companies not happy with "a lot of money"

[@iph2]

Isn’t that just business 101

[@OneWayTwoBrazil]

I only learn about these live services when they get shut down ☠

[@olafthebear2327]

Same, I'd maybe heard of Foamstars once and completely forgot about it. The rest I heard of for the first time today

[@will4673]

Same here.

[@muufle]

7:40 - They DID NOT make the right call, what? They were making a zombie game, Xbox/Bethesda FORCED them to scrap it and make redfall in a few months. No fucking way Arkane, the legendary studio, would willingly release a product such as this unless they were forced(which they were).

[@Anukinihun]

NO HELL NO, leave ID alone to make Doom. This is how you kill multiple studios. Just accept Halo is dead and take a break

[@unloyal4847]

I really dislike how "not used to making these type of game" argument gets thrown out there when games like HD2, NMS, WoW, FF14 exist.

[@orektez]

if the devs of doom made halo.. that might be interesting. but it wouldn't be halo anymore. they just need to stop releasing halo.

[@jjglaser]

The reason everyone quits Halo infinite is because you can not select a gun loadout. You barely get any time or ammo on the gun you want to use. That is why destiny 2 and every other game is more popular. The halo devs got no clue still it seems.

[@groovyhoovy2606]

Using that logic you could say that Doom isn’t “DOOM” anymore because the gameplays drastically different now compared to 1-3 Go back and play CE or Halo 2-3 those games have horribly dated combat now the franchise needs to evolve to something completely new or it’ll just get laughed at and left in the past And I agree a new IP would be better let the past rest unless you have something worth adding but that’s never going to happen

[@Super_Seaton]

@@groovyhoovy2606 It is already laughed at and has been left in the past. Halo Infinite was Halo's last chance.

[@semiramisubw4864]

@@groovyhoovy2606 h1-3 doesnt really have dated combat. Its still okayish and even better than some games over the last 5 years.

[@Kiryu_Kazuma01]

Halo is not Halo now anyway, so they can’t go any lower

[@psell8628]

Correction: The Death of Bad Live Service Games which should not be a surprise

[@therealjaystone2344]

Even good ones out there also died too not too long ago

[@Touhitsu]

"a waste of money" maybe it's too much to say tho. We pay like 25$ dolars on a Rock/PoP show, and it takes like 1 hour, and we don't see as wasted. So why would you say it's wasted in games after playing for like, 2 years (how old is New World? it's been like 3 years already). I know i know, we are used to keep games for longer, and yeah, "forever > for a time", but isn't like games gonna end and still worth spending money on it if you have fun. But anyway, just my OPINION.

[@Natrium9775]

first it started with f2p games having barebones live service with battlepass seasons to now paying 70e for the barebones base game, 20e day1 dlc/preorderbonus, 15e battlepass, 40e expansions after 6months + all the stuff in mtx store. wish i could still pay full price for game at launch and the cosmetics etc was earned by playing game completing achievements

[@WhatWillYouFind]

Wow had tens of millions at its peak. These corporate suits REALLY don't get it, people only have time for 1 or 2 games at the most per month . . . you won't capture an audience without a significant amount of content AND great game design. Most of the modern options lack everything and lean heavily into monetary design to capture the most amount of money, forever and thats not how it should work. I can only hope regulations someday pass to remove the abusive WHALING that companies keep chasing.

[@tranquero]

I was just about to point this out. Let me add: at this point, they should be able to calculate the market size by the time the gamer's market HAS, it's not unlimited! Even if you milk out as much money as possible and they don't log back in.

[@swahler34]

I've only bought local mp games for the fam since 2018. With a time management game or 2. The AAA market has been trash for a while. I'm open to new content, but like modern Hollywood offerings, there is no interest for me.

[@gabrielhersey5546]

Maybe 8 million max at a single time. Maybe ten million. Highly impressive and a true accomplishment. Ff14 currently has like 40 million active subscribers. Which is basically a wow like mmo. So yeah. Add it up

[@mmmmmmcreamy766]

Why would you limit the amount of spending an individual wants to spend on a game of their choice? Its none of your business.

[@YazzPott]

@@gabrielhersey5546are you genuinely trying to say ffxiv has 40 million subs? Where did you get that from? MMO population? Where its says WoW has 145M? Actual data collected and the devs themselves have never claimed much higher than 1 million. No idea where you got that absurd number from. Unless you are quoting the “characters made” which has nothing to do with subs, let alone active ones.

[@GeorgeMonet]

The problem isn't that live service games can't work but that they have all been attached to very repetitive empty experiences. Management intentionally hobbles the player experience in a live service game. There is no multiplayer game where the players have ever been able to do awesome things. You are never going to be able to interact with objects in a multiplayer game like you can in Skyrim because the architecture cannot support it. Even Minecraft wouldn't be possible if the terrain wasn't giant voxel blocks. You are never going to have immersive stories or immersive experiences. There is a reason why so many live service games involve a shooting game.

[@Allious131]

No it can't were tired they suck

[@Haruka_May]

It's wild seeing the playerbase actively make some of these games worse. If you respect the player's time and allow them to finish content a large portion of the playerbase absolutely hates that as they need their forever game they can spend all of their time in. And they get what they want, endless time sinks.

[@RobGM2]

Never buy online only games. They can shut it down anytime.

[@orektez]

ya this is why i never bought WoW, i played alot of free mmo's over the years put time into them only for them to shutdown randomly, and my friends wanted me to get WoW and i was like.. nah something might happen to blizzard.

[@GeorgeMonet]

Because of DRM nearly every game is now an online only game to a certain extent.

[@orektez]

@@GeorgeMonet true but i figured i'd sail the seven seas if anything ever happens to steam or gaben.

[@TheElitedeath]

@@orektez Better to have played and lost than to never have played at all.... also wow has a million private servers since people reverse-engineered it ages ago, so you can guarantee it will never die even if Blizzard dies

[@ziebus904]

​@fionnmaccuill415 no...

[@graemefroom3873]

15:10 Conquerors Blade is one of those amazing games that nobody has heard of

[@lstairvideos1330]

The ONE live service Sony should have actually given a shit about was The Last of Us… the original ps3 game had an incredible multiplayer mode and it could’ve had a spot amongst the overwatches and gta’s… such a misfire going with concord instead..

[@conneryechout7143]

how does this affect lebrons legacy

[@dnlkr]

Will this affect the trout population?

[@josuemartinez6865]

Will this affect the preservation of dinosaur bones found in Egypt?

[@cosmicvcosmic]

Nothing affects my Glorious King’s legacy

[@sanguinedelight6464]

Will the mariana trench be affected?!

[@Eta_Hoyimi]

Nothing can make it worse lol Anthony Davis' string of "boo boos" already ruined anything he tried to do last season so he's probably just gonna start playing genshin too at this rate.

[@zeromailss]

It's not that live service is dying, it's just that bad game is dying They should make good game and then monetize it and not make a game around monetization Gacha game is now mainstream cuz we got a lot of good one released but we also got a lot of bad one and those died. Some in few years some even in few months. They need to make more small scale game with more risk but also more innovation than big boring game

[@gameradio64]

waiting for the next live service game AAAAA to release.

[@BrandonDenny-we1rw]

Tell me you have no idea what youre talking about without telling me you have no idea. None of you do. You complain and cry because of your feelings with no basis in reality ever.

[@ryanSLF]

Black ops 6 is released soon

[@KiomonDuck]

​@@BrandonDenny-we1rwcomplaining into the void won't help you or make a difference. Just move on and enjoy the games you like.

[@alexnorth2452]

​@@BrandonDenny-we1rw but you are the one crying here 😂

[@CmoIsDaNam3i]

​@@BrandonDenny-we1rwTell me you missed the joke without telling me you missed the joke. lol I hope you realize this is just likely a dig at the whole Skull & Bones "AAAA" thing, just going the extra mile really. 😆

[@Zood94]

7:46 "XBOX made the right call." That triggered me more than it should have. Oh Asmon... If you knew what Arkane Studio made and who made the decision about Redfall... RIP talented single player devs, Prey Is Arkane's Masterpiece.

[@Metranomix]

Prey is outstanding, it's so sad what happened to Arkane honestly. They never got a chance for redemption.

[@FruitJuice1009]

I think the only good live service games out right now are very few and far between now. Gacha games are unironically some of the best live service games on the market right now. They are all free to play and if you are lucky, you might be playing a gacha game that doesn't require you to spend the equivalent of a mortgage to stay up to date with the game. They have constant content drops that again are completely free. People hate on these types of games but I think they are the future.

[@x1toxickiller]

I feel bad for the employees because they’re just doing what they’re told but the higher ups who don’t know anything about games are just chasing the potential to be the next Fortnite without putting any of the effort or passion.

[@christianalanwilson434]

That's why independent or small studio game development is where its at. Make a good game, put it on steam and hope word of mouth spreads. Success isn't guaranteed, but its getting easier and easier to do, and at least you directly benefit if it sells.

[@ThisIsmiXTV]

​@@christianalanwilson434The break even point is so incredibly low compared to big budget games that if you dont strike it rich youll be able to try again, learn from your mistakes and make a better game next time.

[@x0gucx]

It's basically Hollywood after the marvel verse success. DC (understandable), old school monsters (what), hazbro verse (tf are you doing), kaiju (one crossover doesn't count)

[@Ralathar44]

You don't have to be Fortnite, just need to make money. Like sure if they make Fortnite money they'd be ecstatic but even Diablo immortal made 49 million in its first month.

[@Dommifax]

@@christianalanwilson434 while I'm really happy about the amount of good indie games we are getting, I also want to enjoy games that are a bit more grand in scope from time - my hope is that we are going to see more games from medium sized companies (like 100-1000 employees) - especially privately owned ones - which are roughly on AAA level instead of having to rely on the whims of EA/MS/Ubi for that, because I hope that they won't be as burdened by their own weight as the giants (more famous recent ones that come to mind would be 2077 and of course BG3)

[@Sampss.]

7:45 bruh your company made 2 PoS games back to back that have 0 players after 5 months

[@blackraven3720]

I think Once Human won't live long either despite it being a good game, it just going to have content burn out and the resets are also going to hurt it.

[@sephirothchild]

I picked up a copy of Black Ops 1 for PS3 at a yard sale and I played it a few years ago. I got curious and booted up the multiplayer to find people still playing matches. As long as you can fill up a 32 player server and have low wait time matches, some fun games can have multiplayer that can last forever. You might face the same people over and over but, at least they're not bots.

[@mr.gameandteach7197]

Helldivers needs a progression system to have the players feel accomplished when they finish a session. I'd still be playing if it did. First descendant needs to increase drop rates or else casual dads that only have 2 hours to play won't waste their time. Chasing a 2% drop rate for a module and not get it after hours of grinding feels like a waste of time, and people will drop it.

[@dutchmccutch615]

Your right man. I dropped it after that first terrible nerfff patch. Went from 400,000 players on steam to now I'm seeing like 20,000-30,000 on average. They killed it with one or their own hellbombs lol. It's a damn shame too because it was such a good time when it first came out. The first month or so we all had so much fun man. Then boom they started fuckin with the game mechanics and people were defending them! my Lil click and I were like nah man yall shouldnt support them doing this. this isn't over they won't ever leave it alone now. And sure enough ever since then it has been hell on the folks still playing it. Who knows what they are goin to change next when the new patch comes out. The comments and reviews all say they screw it up more and more every time they try to fix it. Me and my brother hopped back on it one day for about 2 hours and we got owned on medium couldn't even finish the mission. We were like yeah to hell with this they ruined this sucker man.. We were playing on like 7 and 8 difficulty by ourselves long before all the weapon nerfs and all the bug robot buffs. Along with more frequent spawn rates Ridiculous!

[@Bomberthegreat]

@@dutchmccutch615 I'm pretty sure Sony was the one who killed it, not them.

[@Logos6]

The fact of the matter is... there are A LOT of live service games out there. People have limited time - therefore they will always go back to the familiar, safe option. Wow and ff14 for mmos, maybe warframe - valorant or counterstrike for shooters - Genshin for gachas - League for mobas - guilty gear, street fighter and tekken for fighters, hearthstone for cardgames and so on. Ofc there are more examples of popular games for each genre but thats what i can make from the top of my head. Point is, if a live servise game isn't good - and by good i mean really fucking good... its not gonna stand out. And even if it stands out and directly tries to compete with said safe popular options... there are way too many parameters that can very easly make them fail. We have seen it time and time again. Predatory monetization, bad balancing, developers not being able to hold a ballance between their vision and what the players want, low funds, no updates, too much grind or too little grind. Well... these games have all the reasons to fail and very low chances of succeeding. Sure we have seen original ideas coming out with alot of potential. To the point some of us even decited to main some of those new games as our most played game, and most of them... well - just died.

[@SkinShowcase-zm3rs]

Exactly! But the companies still don't realise this.

[@XxKABOOM50xX]

The fact you only mentioned Valorant+Counterstrike and not a couple more shooters speaks volumes.

[@Ralathar44]

Failure by your standards maybe, but if the game still printed money before it died and was significantly profitable the company doesn't care if it only lasted 6 months to a year.

[@morbed4181]

@@XxKABOOM50xX care to tell more shooter game that focused on classic mode of shooter game that is Search & Destroy / Bomb Mission?, you could say Apex,Fortnide or even COD but they aren't the same genres, they're mainly focused on Battle Royale. heck even if you mentioned HALO it is focused on king of the hill / capture the flag.

[@thomasmedveddubois4566]

Just wake up and I got a good news, now there is 2 option left : everything become gatcha or you actualy respect some kind of quality

[@bl8388]

Gotcha baby!

[@nacht9586]

Im down for most things to be gacha. More accessibility and more content each week.

[@DuoMaxwellDS]

They aren't mutual exclusive. I'm still here enjoying games like Oxygen not Included, Victoria 3 and P5R while having Azur Lane, Nikke and GBF on my phones.

[@domaxltv]

​@@DuoMaxwellDS Victoria 3 has no quality but people still play it so I think you demonstrated the third way: just make a game in a genre noone else but you has ever made a game in and you will have some success

[@Dommifax]

@@domaxltv victoria is the only flavour of paradox I haven't yet managed to get into - wanted to changed that when v3 came out but after how it was received I decided to just keep playing the stuff I already know (and BG3 afterwards)

[@gregcook161]

Elden Ring has a better, bigger, more "open" open world than most games with a sub. No loot boxes, no season grind, no afk trolls, no creepy "meta cops," just fun how I want. The fact that I would happily pay FromSoft a sub for that setup says a lot.

[@fluffypinkpandas]

im glad you coined the phrase Meta Cop Its a premise in YugiOh that the police intentionally use meta decks against suspects. And also its a premise in seemingly every game I played with a "RPG meta" where a power capped player takes it upon themselves to act as some sort of superman/batman/goku/robocop/jotaro kujo/iron man and completely use their busted powers as some sort of role-play moral authority to.... "keep people in check" I noticed souls games are pretty balanced and dont really contain any mechanical opportunity for roaming metas to grief or police other players experiences.

[@fluffypinkpandas]

some players wish they had the Slash Jail command and a Physgun

[@KaihanFidaiy]

Like deep rock galatic

[@dmitriyrasskazov8858]

​@@fluffypinkpandas Metas in souls games do exist, but still its a more of a vibe thing. If souls had WoW level of meta there would be hosts summoning golden fantoms and kicking those who dared to arrive c in wrong armor and with incorrect weapons.

[@fluffypinkpandas]

@@dmitriyrasskazov8858 ppl kicked me from raids in destiny for having Truth but not Gjallarhorn

[@absbabs6153]

At this point it just feels like an insult to gamers whenever i see studios pull the suicide-squad move....you dont know your audience, you dont know what they like and you dont know the gaming industry, yet they just throw money at it and think "ahh these idiots will play anything, just make sure theres lots of things to buy"

[@AnthonyScolaro5]

I think IP doesn't dictate whether or not it will be successful. But having a big IP will put more eyes on it and definitely gives it a leg up over original IPs. Hogwarts Legacy doesn't perform as well if it is just random wizards and you aren't in Hogwarts with Harry Potter references.

[@loaderboter3026]

I think a weird example is genshin. Genshin has a Gacha system integrated into the game as a mechanic, which is it's gold mine. This gacha feature is a constant and never got tweaked, it is simple and straightforward. Genshin now gets content uodates that you can play with your original characters if you want and abive that the game is compelling to a certain playerbase and updates it's content every couple weeks. That's the important part, every update brings content, they dont introduce new mechanics or anything that introduces a new gacha system or such. It is simple and the gacha system is known and doesn't change, in other words constant. Many games make a shop with complex items and boosters that it gets frustrating and the gameplay trying to force you to buy it and they make it obvious.

[@AfroNinja1278]

Genshin's gacha system isn't successful because its "simple" or "constant". Many gacha games with the exact, if not better, systems have died. Its successful because the whales are obsessed with obtaining dumb little anime characters and they are addicted to gambling

[@brtt150]

​@@AfroNinja1278This is wrong and shows a fundamental lack of understanding about why games like Genshin are popular. They are popular primarily because people enjoy the gameplay loop and the story. Most players are not whales. Half of Genshin's players have never spent a dime on the game. The whales subsidize the game yes because of how much they spend but they are 1% of the playerbase. I know it hurts you that millions of people genuinely like a gacha game for reasons that have nothing to do with gambling but it is true whether you like it or not.

[@joshschilke9968]

@@brtt150you are acting like 1% of the playerbase spends money on the game. They constantly offer limited time characters which targets the whole playerbase and feeds into their FOMO on a character they might want.

[@brtt150]

I clearly said the opposite. 1% whales and probably 50% roughly buys the battle pass or daily currency pass. Never said the player base doesn't spend money at all. That doesn't take away from the fact people in ironically enjoy the game on its own merits and that most aren't just playing it because "muh addiction".

[@AfroNinja1278]

@@brtt150 Huh..? I've put many hours into Genshin, so it doesnt hurt me at all if others play it too lol. OP and I are talking about the gacha system, not how good or bad the gameplay loop or story are. Learn to read please. Its a fact that gacha systems prey upon weak-minded individuals and those with addictions. Im sorry you feel the need to protect the corporations and CEOs that are exploiting you. I know it hurts you that you are wasting your money, but its the truth whether you like it or not. Have a great day pal

[@IceKoldKilla]

I played Foamstars early on for the easy trophies. Then I realized it was so difficult as I could never find a game IN THE FIRST MONTH OF RELEASE! I reluctantly kept trying for a month. I got most trophies and deleted the game. I can't even play if I wanted to and it's likely more difficult now.

[@MuseR.]

These billionaires think making games is easy money and they are learning the hard way, that shit ain't easy

[@mikehawk8984]

Developers don't understand the amount of immense care and love has to go into live service games in order for them to be successful long term. Look at Fortnite or POE, the reason that they're so successful is because they're great games FIRST and people buy cosmetics in order to support the devs.

[@Touhitsu]

There're games from 90's where people still make effort to keep it online and working, so... if you have a good game, you'll eventually have a good comunity, and no matter what your game won't die.

[@LuvTonique]

Can't wait for the first Dead Service Game You have to pay to attempt to log in to the server but the servers never actually go online even though the company says they're up So it's just thousands of people paying $1 to attempt to log in, entering a queue, being told servers aren't up yet, and being sent back to the $1 queue purchase screen

[@youtubasoarus]

Big gaming companies got so used to making crap, and people ate it up and took people for fools. But people get wise eventually.

[@depressedonion5610]

I can almost guarantee Live Service games would do better if prices weren't so outrageous. If you make your $40 legendary skin cost $5 you would probably sell SO MUCH more often than the minority of whales. You could easily get 10 people to buy a nice looking $5 skin than 1 person on a $40. More people would buy that and it could easily equate or out weigh than the people buying high priced skins currently. ESPECIALLY in the current economy where people can hardly afford groceries.

[@blablahnothin1996]

Unfortunately, it turns out the opposite is true. It's more profitable for companies to appeal to whales then have small time prices for everyday people.

[@daxster25]

You greatly underestimate the amount of people that are willing to spend A LOT of money on a single cosmetic in a game. Especially when there's over 50 million millionaires in the world, many of which are nerds

[@ShindlerReal]

It’s not true. Most people won’t spend a penny on a skin no matter if it’s $0,5 or $50. Then there are a few special people who can spend $500.

[@EliteRaider]

Well imma tell y’all now xdefiant doesn’t have nearly the same player count. Although they do have a great responsive dev team the game was plagued with so many issues and even some they fixed during the beta so it definitely didn’t live up to its own hype and COD will definitely wipe it off the board

[@Majin_Trunky]

Its basically like a Ponzi's Pyramid. 22:41 good take btw

[@maxurmon]

i find funny how the graph of playing of life service gamess is the same that non-life service games, you buy it, you play it, you had you fun, you stop playing the only difference is the microtransactions

[@velvet5750]

lol the funny part of that is a buy to own and complete game doesn't cost as much too make as a live service for these companies but because they're operating at a loss they have to go for the live service model in hopes to recoupe the cost purely because of over investment

[@AkameGaKen]

the live service model isnt the problem. bad games and bad monetization is the problem. usually rushed unfinished products.

[@x0gucx]

On paper it sounds good but it just means "releasing unfinished with working shop" "beta for 10 years" Stop making live service, you lost, the people picked their champions.

[@Sitri444]

28:06 Yeah, including Yong Yea.

[@KindOldRaven]

People *DO* need another smash bros. Why? Because the original games like ultimate just can't be played online. Well, *technically* they can, but really, they can't. It's a horrible experience with worse netcode than CS 1.5 on dial up.

[@queazyjam6924]

I remember when live service was just exclusive to MMO’s. WoW, MapleStory, RuneScape, guildWars, EverQuest, knight online. All with no battle passes.

[@RuinNationGaming]

yong jumps on any negitive trend currently in the market

[@Drakonus_]

I mean, in a sea of negative news for games. It's not really strange that gaming news channels are gravitating towards those negative ones.

[@RuinNationGaming]

@Drakonus_ true but he has been doing this even when the industry was mostly good I mean, about the only game he has and s*** on. It took him a very long time to say that it wasn't as good as it should have been. What's cyberpunk? He rode that game until the wheels came off. Yeah, it's gotten better since launch, but he was so adamant about it, not sucking.For like the first year

[@lukewarmape603]

He just reads out Reddit threads, that's how he keeps getting into disasters like with Cyberpunk. Guy is a fraud and just follows the hivemind.

[@Kiryu_Kazuma01]

@@lukewarmape603and somehow got the English voice acting role for Kiryu Kazuma in Like a Dragon 8, while doing a terrible terrible job

[@zepredalux2159]

Arkane didn t deserved to be shutdown. They made excellent games like dishonored and prey. Thing is prey didn t sell enough for microsoft so they got pressured to quickly make a multiplayer game when it s not their domain of expertise ! And even having 1 bad sale doesn t mean you can t comeback or do better next but with big names controlling every studio they just get shutdown if the sales are not good enough

[@OG21020]

🤣🤣 at the player numbers for Concord.

[@AqoCyrale]

I play XDefiant, here is why: it's fun. I don't play a lot of the other games on this list, here is why: they're not fun. Live service or not, literally doesn't matter. All that happens is that boring games die because people don't want to play a boring game when they could play a fun game instead. It seems like a lot of the business people making those forgot that "fun" is the reason people pick up a game to begin with.

[@TheEddagosp]

I think the real issue is that the games coming out are just not good *enough*. It's really not that difficult to make a good game, especially if you throw millions at it. However, there's such a saturation of good games that simply being good is not noteworthy; it has to be something new to break through. Elden Ring and BG3 didn't become sensations because they were simply good games. They were popular because they blew everything out of the water by being *that good*.

[@IceKoldKilla]

343 have had a rule to never hire Bungie people. They're childish and suck at their one job. GET EM OUTTA 'ERE!

[@mcz1945]

343 made one genuinely awesome game that respects lore and works with the old Bungie canon but I feel like nobody aside from me played it because no other Halo fans ever mention it. I forgot to mention it is called Halo: Fireteam Raven.

[@Fenyxclips]

Given what Bungie has been doing to D2 for the past few years: Quite a good rule.

[@IceKoldKilla]

@@Fenyxclips except we are talking about back then when Bungie people were fired. Also 343 is definitely worse lol. Destiny 1+2 are miles beyond halo 4, 5, infinite. I'm not even a fan anymore. I gave up on D2 myself years ago. Still better than 343. It's sad how they destroyed a beloved franchise

[@blackyonbi]

From the destiny community. We do apologize for our hardcore Stockolm Syndrome. We hate that destiny 2 is " The best out there " ( which isnt saying that much ) .

[@barsx7-jkterjter]

I still can't stop seething each time I see that bungie are the "monetization consultants" when D2 is one of the most predatory games out there monetization-wise

[@Seven-Lights]

They’ve gotten better or maybe I’ve gotten better at ignoring it, but admittedly any improvement was likely due to massive player scrutiny and backlash, so I can’t really praise said improvement.

[@camper5579]

I love how the community scared bungie shitless and they had to release more content than usual

[@rabidsquirrel19]

I hate these “We” type comments, like you don’t speak for everyone’s opinion bro that’s just you projecting

[@nexus2691]

​@rabidsquirrel19 fr. I fucking adore d2 from a gameplay pov. It's genuinely one of the most fun games on the planet (during its good moments) but rightfully so gets overshadowed by it's horrible monetization, a community who shot talks their own game more than haters, and some of the inconsistencies thought the Years through many things. But what games have made it the 10 year distance, retained a massive player base, ended a massive saga and still doesn't look like it's slowing down? These people are blind man, I'm not saying the games perfect but it's so far from bottom barrel trash. I think.

[@malcolmliang]

I am back to single player myself or co op games. Don't like the game start game shut down cycle

[@Uncle_Troy]

4:03 Zack literally channeling his inner Apu from that scene where Principal Skinner talks about Billy and the Clonasaurus.

[@Captain_Hapton]

The fact I've never seen actual gameplay of Suicide Squad, and I've only ever seen cutscenes, which I've only seen because of how bad they are, should tell you everything you need to know.

[@agoosecalledxaro6679]

I have been playing good games that are all singleplayer amazing experiences. And I'm not even talking about BG3 even though that is also amazing. I'm talking about Terrraria. I'm talking about Satisfactory. I'm talking about X4. There are so maany good games that you can just play and have fun for hours.

[@christianalanwilson434]

Yeah its like indie music and movies... there are more good games out there than you could ever play in a single lifetime, you just have to look off the beaten path a little. AAA gaming has been effectively dead to me for several years now and I don't really miss it.

[@BetweenTheLyons]

I didn't know we were back to using Yongyea as a valid source for anything after his behavior during the voice acting incident.

[@KachZz]

What happened?

[@angel_of_rust]

that shit was wack, but one can do a lot lot lot worse than that. and he and everyone else just sort of let it past anyway. if he was at least jamie marchie levels of bad maybe he would have taken an actual hit.

[@kanaria-cu3uv]

there are more developers than there are people playing the game 😂

[@brainrain1142]

The biggest problem with Live service games is that they build a full game from the ground , sell you half of it full price and then use the other half as Seasonal content locked behind a paywall. I was so hype for multiversus both time. First time was good game play but nothing to do in it. Second time had alot of stuff but locked behind that disney speedstorm kind of seasonal content with less fun gameplay. Synced had a nice gameloop but it wasnt enough , 1 hour of gameplay was enough to see the full game. destiny 2 sunset'd most of the game to make more place for their new ''dlc'' but delete more than it create.Grind isnt even fun anymore. The first descendant will die once people realise there is no proper ''end-game'' . Once human is fun but you play 4-5 hour a week and you wait til the next update to keep going , you just cant grind it. helldiver just get so boring after 3-4 hours for me , like synced , the gameloop is fine , but the more you play , the more the same it is , you never see your own progress. i wont talk about gachas , theses game suck . they are succesful cause of the waifus. Games theses day either get their gameloop good and repetitive til you're bored or they're just suck. tldr Live service games are fine , Half baked games are not.

[@javonyounger5107]

I wish he went into more deapth as to why these games failed. For multiverse for example they made it take very long to unlock characters when characters are the life blood of these games.

[@crementine922]

Destiny 2 being used as a benchmark constantly by this guy is sad.

[@Grassdia]

Well it’s undeniable that it’s one of the most successful in its genre every game that try to break the mood and be a “destiny-killer” inevitably sets itself up for failure by not establishing a core identity and audience then building on top of it.

[@Arctis326]

8 years on maintaining the game is no joke. Even though it has its flaws

[@flashmasterp.2685]

The biggest destiny killer out there is destiny itself 😂 But yeah, his almost fanboy attitude about destiny is highly annoying

[@AfroNinja1278]

​@@Grassdia Anthem is legitimately the only game that ever tried to be a "destiny-killer". D2 fans try to make it sound like dozens of games have gone up against Destiny and failed when that is just flat out wrong lol. Warframe came out before Destiny and has no similarities other than a sci-fi theme (and the game is still doing great). Borderlands popularized the looter-shooter genre years before destiny existed, did amazing, and they never intended borderlands to be live service in the first place so obviously support stopped years later. Looter-shooter =/= Destiny ripoff / destiny-killer. Destiny beat out Anthem - a game that everyone already knew was going to flop

[@slomo3035]

@@Arctis326 I hate being the guy bringing this into the debate, since it's often Destiny vs. Warframe and that's just hella annoying. They're two different games, that's it. But Warframe for example is the exact opposite. After 11 years the game is getting better with every update, updates have always been free, community feedback is being taken into consideration, the devs have dev streams every week and a convention for showing big updates every year, story got a lot deeper, grind is being reduced, prices for some paid packs are reduced and so on. The thing that kills Warframe is the old content.. it makes a lot of people stop playing, but you have to get through it until you can fully experience what makes the game so special. I'm very glad it got a good shoutout in the video, because to me it is a very special game.

[@bebopbobeep]

I wish we got a good platform fighter on PC. The fact that Smashbros is an exclusive title on a single console really sucks for the genre.

[@flashmasterp.2685]

Smashbros was always on Nintendo, will always be on Nintendo. Why would they cross-platform their flag ship game? To please some PC Masterrace 🤡? 😂😂Hell no

[@Frobro669]

Rivals of aether/2 and fraymakers. Rushdown revolt I think was canceled or delayed. Also melee via slippi is a good online experience.

[@yellowraincoat.]

IMO there's nothing wrong with live service games as a concept. It's that the majority that attempt them fall into the trap of money first, neglecting the fact there actually has to be a solid game as a foundation.

[@oteris2924]

In theory there is nothing wrong with a Live Service game, but in practice they are some of the most FOMO driven games out there.

[@zot171]

NFT games really fit the "money first, game maybe" model

[@hagaiak]

Works for Gacha games

[@Sc5ch]

​@hagaiak Nah, Genshin etc. actually have decent gameplay and an actual storyline. They didn't pump everything into monetization like others.

[@hagaiak]

@@Sc5ch Hm maybe so. I never played any of those because the concept of "Hero Collectors" doesn't speak to me. I'd rather have a tight cast of characters that go through the story in a coherent way. But as I said I never played so I might be wrong about Genshin

[@eduardoborges506]

Live service games arent dying. Repetitive seasonal and bad live service games are dying. Just yesterday we saw how PoE, a live service game, is still flourishing after all these years. Quality will always prevail.

[@pagam3778]

I realize that both bloggers in this video live in the US and don't know the rest of the world exists, but the problem with Helldivers 2 isn't the repetitiveness, or the lack of content. The problem is Sony, who decided it would be a great idea to disconnect ~180 countries around the world from their most successful PC game because their country doesn't have a PSN. That's it. That's it. The game is dead.

[@johnny0sksux]

the gremlins characters killed the game imo

[@sinner3412]

the irony of calling zzz bad while playing wuwa and not genshin, and praising the last descendant while not playing warframe or destiny. it's so wild lmao

[@YeOldeMachina]

I think The First Decendant is probably his first looter-shooter. Only explanation i can come up with.

[@vahallen9876]

To be fair he didn’t call ZZZ bad, just inferior to similar products Which is absolutely bullshit anyway, but atleast not as bullshit as saying ZZZ is bad while saying WuWa and First Descendant are good HOYO stuff is just the best of their kind and people can cope all they fucking want, but the numbers thwarting any other product in the space will speak louder than whatever bullshit they wanna believe

[@Emj2679]

I'm convinced 90% of game devs have never ever touched a game in their life

[@firestarter000001]

I think the idea of this "forever game" , one game that you come home to play in the evening, is spot on. I think its the dream of many many poeple.

[@ramistotle]

I mean, most of the recent live service games are either P2W, or they are Free to Play that requires you to spend 95 hours in 1 day to progress.

[@Angelo_Nicolson]

Just give us multiplayer black flag! COME ON MAN!

[@GeorgeMonet]

No I want single player Black Flag 2 create a character and adult content added. So Black Flag+BG3

[@Ralathar44]

The fact that Harley Quinn's character, someone literally so popular from Batman the Animated Series that they added her to the official Batman canon, is now only known as Margot Robbie and not the character tells you just how thoroughly they have assassinated her character. She got totally Captain Marvel'd. Interesting and great character ruined by bad modern writing that's worried more about agendas than story telling and having good characters and keeps going back and ruining existing good proven characters.

[@simonlego01]

27:45 well pokemon are able to recently just put out what feels like early access bad games and say its full release and everyone still buys it

[@Mortiz21]

Companies don't realize their game has to be really good for live service to work. Then they have to fight all the other live service games to stay afloat. The average player can only put so much time into so many games.

[@DonJuanDM]

Also these companies haven't anticipated a big elephant coming to live service pie next year - GTA 6