The Doncombe Brook, Indo-European Origins of Don-, Dan- and Dn- Rivers: Marshfield Part Two

Part two from Marshfield, this video explores the Indo-European roots of rivers beginning with Don-, dan-, and dn- especially taking into account our Doncombe brook in Marshfield. We also examine a little the mythic background of the name both in the Rig Veda and Welsh myth.
These history walk videos are about the English landscape in and around the south west of England (though I make the odd foray into Wales). I often use ancient charters (such as Saxon charters) to give me insight into the way the landscape was viewed in the past.
But it is not the Saxons that interest me the most (though they do) but the prehistoric world and its ancient monuments, trackways and ditches.
#Archaeology #oldenglishcharters #antiquarians #historywalks #britishhistory

[@jameswalksinhistory3848]

Interesting and very informative-Thank you

[@AllotmentFox]

No, thank you for watching

[@sianwarwick633]

I have been to the joining of the Moravá river, at Dunaj in Slovakia, at Devín. Recommended to me as it was an ancient Celtic fort and settlement.

[@AllotmentFox]

That pan-European thing is fascinating. I did a littlevideo about the source of the Thames and an Iron Age fort.

[@bez23]

Fascinating as ever, thanks. I live near the River Don, and cross the Don Valley each day to get to work. Might I suggest investigating a mic wind cover? Rycote is the brand to look for, they're the dons when it comes to noise reduction from windy conditions.

[@AllotmentFox]

I have a mic cover so furry a queen cat who is squatting my living room keeps trying to take it to her den to give it milk (true, this). I have to make compromises with the environment: It is high up over Bath. There is wind. I don’t want to sit in my house speaking into a mic so I hope the viewer can put up with the odd crackle. Does your museum talk about the Romano-British landscape of your area?

[@fado792]

In Denmark there is a lovely brook called the Goden-Aa. God river. Aa is a very old german word for a water flow. In ancient days people have thrown gifts (""Don-ations???"") as bronze axes - never used, and meant as money- at the split of those brooks.

[@AllotmentFox]

Old English has 'ea' as river which no longer exists as an English word. It appears in placenames. People also placed votive offerings in rivers here. Thanks for watching

[@fado792]

@@AllotmentFox Old Englisch is a German dialect from the Angelen who lived in Jutland where the Goden-Ae is.

[@AllotmentFox]

@@fado792 The Angles were only one of the tribes who became English, “standard” Old English in literature was West Saxon, for example. But yes, the link is there.

[@fado792]

@@AllotmentFox In Denmark; all those names of villages ending with ""Up"" or ""By"" As in England.

[@AllotmentFox]

@@fado792 northern England, and that is because of the later Danish invasion. So, the Danes didn't make it as far south as me (they did but they were defeated at the battle of Eðandun) so they ruled the north and gave the -by endings you are seeing. There are no -by names down here.

[@davidjames3787]

Celtic languages arrived in Great Britain from about1,300 BC to 800 BC. Nobody knows which language was spoken prior to this, (a form of Basque has been suggested, but without any evidence), but it certainly wasn't Welsh.

[@AllotmentFox]

I agree but if I would give a date it would be the language came with the Beakers so Bronze Age like your dates but earlier, 2,300BC. I think it was part of the package. Thanks for watching and commenting

[@davidjames3787]

Thank you for your reply. I did enjoy the video.

[@joegill3612]

Even by their own histories the Welsh and Irish were latecomers to these islands coming from the other side of Anatolia via the Mediterranean. The English on the other hand lived in Doggerland and were regular visitors to southern England during the ice age. We know this by dna. So called Celtic dna is largely R1b whereas the dna of Cheddar man is an ancestor of the I2 dna which arose in euope and nowhere else. Sheila McGregor has written a whole series of books on the subject which I would recommend.

[@AllotmentFox]

I shall check that author out. Both Irish and Welsh as languages on one side and English on the other do share a common ancestor so regardless of genetic origin their languages came here in roundabout routes from the Black Sea but English a good two-and-a-half thousand years later (probably). I tend not to consider Cheddar Man because his clan seems to come to a crashing halt and the Bronze, Iron Age and Romano-British live on in Britain through the Welsh directly influencing our present. Thanks for watching!

[@johnbrereton5229]

​@@AllotmentFox If the people we know as English were living in Doggerland and the adjacent area that is now the east coast, they were here much earlier than 2,000 years ago. Doggerland flooded in 6,500 BC and was inhabited after the end of the Ice age 18,000 years ago. Also according the Channel 4 programme Cheddar man does have descendants still living in the area, and if this is the case he must have many other descendants too.

[@AllotmentFox]

@@johnbrereton5229 ethnicity is a huge minefield: historically the English came here around AD450, archaeology shows us that “Saxon” federates/mercenaries were here earlier than that possibly in Roman uniform, let’s call that in the 350s. So even if people who have the genes of the English were in Britain before that they didn’t have a culture we would call Anglo-Saxon or English or it would/should appear in the record. I have no idea what my DNA is but my culture is English, British and European in that order. Sometimes I am more British than English and sometimes-rarely-I am a citizen of the world. But mostly I display an obvious inclination to Englishness to anyone watching, but who knows, my genes could be anything. There was an influx in the Bronze Age of a new wave of DNA largely replacing the Neolithic population and at the same time new technology and art. Sometime in the Bronze Age the ancestor of the Welsh language came here. I think it is more likely than not that they came at the same time. Alice Whatshername from the telly poured a big dose of doubt on the Cheddar Man’s relatives still being here on statistical grounds in one of her books, sorry.

[@johnbrereton5229]

@@AllotmentFox The term Anglo- Saxon was never even used by the people at the time, it's a later addition. Also the Cheddar man story has all been pretty much disproved by the actualy geneticists who worked on the TV show that produced it. Even New Scientists ran a disclaimer on their original report of the story. So whether Adrian Taggert the Sommerset History teacher is related to Cheddar man must also be questioned, though that is still their claim. As to the peoples who colonised Britain after the Ice age they were all descended from Indo Europeans, including the Welsh and the English who could well have been here for longer than the 6th century. We don't know, in fact no one does.

[@charleswhite758]

The Angles re-named vast areas of the country presumably because they could not pronounce the previous "Welsh"/Celtic names. That makes sense, it's the same today, we English people find it impossible to pronounce most Welsh place names.

[@AllotmentFox]

I had to be taught how to pronounce the town of Calne and I do occassionally help others with places like Savernake, both Brythonnic (Welsh) place names. I think it gives a (fallible) clue, ease of pronunciation, as to origin. I think racial segregation and conquest is the reason for placename changes but where that conquest was slower something of the British survived, ie the west. It is all very unpleasant but those are my thoughts. Thanks for watching!

[@charleswhite758]

@@AllotmentFox It's a fascinating topic that connects us with the distant mists of time. Thanks for the video!

[@ConradAinger]

An excellent example of mutual incomprehensibility is Bristol's River Avon - which essentially means 'River river' 😀.

[@WiltshireMan]

I once knew a bible scholar who believed some of the names came from Jewish tribes and names like "The tribe of Dan" who he believed moved away and populated lands in Europe and elsewhere and that who came much later the Saxons came from sons of Isaac aka Isaacson shortened to Sacson Saxon? Apparently he said a lot of Welsh looking and sounding names were similar to Hebrew or Jewish words, who knows. It's an interesting topic. As for Bluebells, yes lovely scent they will soon be at their peak.

[@AllotmentFox]

Yes that is interesting but I would say the evidence around Indo-European languages and migration is becoming quite compelling these days. I am waiting for the late Spring flowers to explode in the hedgerows and meadows. An early orchid would be nice. Thanks for watching

[@damienflinter4585]

You missed the Russian river Don.

[@AllotmentFox]

I miss a lot of things. I shall fire my researcher. Thanks for that, I’ll look it up

[@freeman5209]

It would be good if you defined what you mean by "the English", and when you talk of usurpers its useful to remember that the Brutus migrations displaced the red headed indigenous Gails in the south of what is now called Wales. The "Anglo Saxon" were khumry as were the Brits, Danes, Angles, Saxons, Jutes and others. From Qumran to the Jutland peninsula known anciently as the Kimbric or Kimbrian Peninsula, to Northumbria and Cumbria in the Britonnic "old north", to Cambria in modern day Wales, these and others are the settlements of the Khumry, and the Brits, Danes, Angles, Saxons Jutes and others are their descendants. But in these distant times there was no Wales or England, those being relatively modern concepts imposed by a belligerent ruling elite who propagandise us to be divided so they can more easily rule. The populations of England whose grandparents lived here before the second war are largely the same as they have been since the neolithic with the "Welsh" (stranger) Brutus migrations coming in relatively late at about 500bc, so its a bit cheeky referring to the "English" as invaders. We could just as easily refer to the "Welsh" as Trojan / Etruscan / Norman invaders.

[@AllotmentFox]

The central thrust of your argument, if I am reading you correctly, that they are all invaders at one time or another is true. I disagree with much else you have written. The Welsh, are the nearest to an indigenous culture coming in at 4,500 years since the migration of their culture here. The Gaels-if that is the correct terminology-come in at the same time as people speaking various dialects of a West Germanic language we call Old English migrating from the continent sometime around AD450, a good 3,000 years after the ancestors of the Welsh got here. So to answer your question, what I mean by English- (1) in the Early Medieval period, people who speak one of the Old English dialects; and (2) today, people who live in England, who speak English or otherwise newcomers who nonetheless invest in their civic responsibilities towards their new community. It has nothing to do with genetics or race and has a lot to do with language.

[@freeman5209]

@@AllotmentFox So you're English?

[@AllotmentFox]

@@freeman5209 Yes, my accent should be a big indicator

[@ConradAinger]

​@AllotmentFox I agree with your first paragraph, but Englishness is an ethnicity. If it were not, then most people now living in England would, uniquely, not have an ethnicity. The existence of ethnic minorities by an elementary logical process, presupposes an ethnic majority.

[@freeman5209]

@@AllotmentFox The "Welsh" have preserved the name and language of the Khumry, particularly in North Wales where the language is more preserved, but the "Welsh" name was not part of that history until fairly recently. Yr Hen Ogledd took place in the "old north" where I'm from and despite my twenty odd percent saxon / norse heritage picked up there, I have majority ancestry descending from the Neolithic era which is more like 6300 yrs so that's kind of my point. That's typical for the English. A living descendant of cheddar man, who is reckoned to be 10000 years old was found a few miles from the grave site, which is way older than anyone claiming to be Welsh. These are the English people you are referring to as "invaders" and "usurpers" and who would have spoken in a dialect similar to pre 1750's "Welsh" which although has not been spoken in England for a long time, was certainly commemorated by my grandfather who made sure I knew this from a very young age. To say it is only about language is political modernity applied where it should not be. Khumry means kinfolk and that has a implied genetic meaning, to it and not linguistic. I refer back to what I said earlier about who are Khumry. In biblical terms the Khumry are the descendants of Noah, with the original inhabitants being descendants of Japheth, the red haired giants. The Dane, Angle, Saxon, Jute are descendants of the biblical Jacob through Dan who is the progenitor of the germanic tribes and Irish Tuatha de Danann. Before the biblical Babel all would have spoken a dialect of the same Celtic language, as I say preserved best in North Wales. They were Khumry. The later mixing up of languages and propagandised English / Welsh histories are a tool of a belligerent ruling Elite and you appear to be caught deep in that trap my friend.