The Downfall of Fanfiction (And How Dramione May Cause It)

[@SebastianSeanCrow]

19:25 why would you buy an ebook of a fanfic on amazon when Ao3 literally has a button to download it in ebook format already FOR FREE 😭

[@irishargrave5850]

to support the author, probably

[@Lady_Sherin]

I mean there is something in having a hard covered copy of favourite ff sitting on your shelf. I would really like to bind my favourite ones had I have skills for it. Maybe one day. But it's something you make for yourself or for a close friend. When you just buy it like a normal book, from store, it looses the vibe.

[@elffkinnie]

It's so frustrating to see people trying to monetise fanfiction when the lack of monetisation is what allows fandoms to keep producing fanworks. I understand wanting to be compensated for the effort you put into something but sometimes you just have to accept that you can't - because it's illegal! Especially when it comes to AO3, the main reason why the archive is allowed to exist is because of its strict no-monetisation policy. It risks fandoms and communities losing one of the few places they can freely post their creations with the safety net of their legal advocacy team if an overzealous author or copyright-holder comes after them. Also, a slight correction to "although we haven't seen fanfiction go to court yet" at 7:35 - technically we have! At the end of 2023, we saw someone who had written and published a sequel to Lord of the Rings attempt to sue the Tolkien estate and Amazon for allegedly infringing on the copyright of his book (which was, at its core, published fanfiction). It didn't work out and he actually got counter-sued since he had monetised it. Not quite the same as an author taking a fic-writer to court but close enough that I thought it was worth mentioning!

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

Oh that's so interesting! Thank you for sharing!!

[@constancep7632]

Netflix, Shonda Rhimes and Julia Quinn sued the creators of The Unofficial Bridgerton Musical (which originally came to be on TikTok) when they started putting together a stage show and selling tickets for it. They won a Grammy for their songs, which fell under fair use because they weren't making money from them, and it sadly went to their head... I would have loved to see what they would have done about seasons 2 and 3 and Queen Charlotte.

[@ritzcrackerz4921]

as someone who’s been a part of the Dramione fandom + Reddit group since covid, I can say w confidence that there is a negative stigma around binding fics + selling them without the authors permission specifically. These binders also tend to use artwork that isn’t theirs for the cover. Binding fics for personal enjoyment/ gifting seem to be fine, but it all depends on who you ask.

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

that's great to hear! and i've definitely seen people who are against it in the fandom but i also see many many people who don't know or don't care (i would say particularly on tiktok)! and yeah i think binding for your own use is fine, although i have seen people argue that posting about it (given that the issue is already SO fraught) can encourage others to seek out bound copies for purchase, which i do think is an interesting point.

[@rivermaxwell3834]

@@theunreliablenarratorshow@theunreliablenarratorshow I hand bind fanfiction for personal use, and I think the argument of "don't do this, what if someone does ___" is a really stupid point because of how much of a non-argument it is. Someone else's choices are their own, and equally, this can be said about almost anything. For example, don't write horror; what if someone actually does it? Don't read dark novels, don't play violent video games, don't do this and that. But basing your life around what others MIGHT do is not the kind of life worth living. Similarly, if you are doing things in an ethical, legal way, then the actions of others who choose not to has nothing to do with you.

[@trashraccoon2635]

fun-not-so-fun fact: fanfic being stolen may be a plague in etsy in the form of bookbinding, but it's also a problem in youtube in form of podfics being recorded by AI and then monetized, mostly in anime fics community. personally i've had my mha fic stolen to youtube and i've had to file for copyright infringement so the video would be taken down. if you've ever come across what if videos that's basically a fic and it sounds like it's read by AI, chances are it's a stolen fic.

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

i actually ran into that while i was researching this video! I thought about including it but i had mostly heard about it in the context of a project aimed at stopping it, and the project didn't really seem to be active so i ended up not including it in the video.

[@trashraccoon2635]

@@theunreliablenarratorshow is it project copy-knight? if yes, they're the ones alerting me of the fic theft. the discord server is mostly quiet, but they always answer questions if there's someone asking.

[@julietfischer5056]

I've written fanfiction, and I've been told by readers that a particular story is canon for them. To me, that means I've captured the spirit of the original work (at least in their opinion) and not gone too far off-track. I do it for fun, not for profit. I will write independent work if I want money. Hate to think I must now go looking for my fanfiction to ensure that nobody's profiting from it.

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

That's such a wonderful thing to hear from your readers! Thank you for your thoughts and for watching.

[@TrulyMadlyShallowly]

10:25 'Draco in leather pants' did first show up in Cassie Clare's trilogy. The characterization (sarcastic, slightly dark but 'redeemed' sexy Draco) was so influential that it became a trope immediately. It was made even bigger by its being centre stage in the Nocturne Alley RPG that ran at the same time.

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

Oh interesting! Cassandra Clare and that whole group was slight before my time in HP fic so I've really only ever heard about that whole era second-hand.

[@Loxalair]

Hi, bookbinder here. DO NOT PRINT, BIND AND SELL FIC. I don't know about the fuckin tiktok binding community, but everywhere else, there's a huge stigma against it. If you want to bind and sell stories, either do a rebind of a book (that the author got paid for, so all you're adding is your materials and labour) (which might still be legally dicey but hey, the author got paid at least once), or do public domain works. A local bookbinder goes to craft fairs and things and sells beautifully bound public domain works alongside her equally beautiful blank notebooks. But doing fanfic is theft. If someone tries to commission you, say no. If you want to commission someone else, maybe learn to bookbind instead. You just need access to a printer and some sewing thread

[@julietfischer5056]

There are books and kits on Amazon for bookbinding, if you want to bind your favorite fanfic.

[@Loxalair]

@@julietfischer5056 There are! But you don't even need those if you don't want to shell out. I did my first books with paper, needle and thread, cereal boxes for cardboard, fabric from my fabric stash and white school glue. I rolled a nail polish bottle over my folds to make them nice and crisp. It might not be a perfect book at the end, but it's something you made, with your hands, and you can always improve

[@cferracini]

There's also the option to just save it in your ereader, which is what I do using Calibri. 😅 But me too! My 1st bookbinding project was an A6 sketchbook made from cerealbox, blank paper, white glue, kraft paper, acrilic paint and simple sewing tread from my mom's sewing kit. Not rocket science and it can be quite fun

[@sahie]

The worst thing about the Goodreads pages for fics is that the site has *really* strict rules about deletion. Once it exists, it exists. The author has no way to delete it. I had to beg them to delete a cover for a book I wrote because I changed it pre-release and had to assure them that nobody had ever received a copy of the book with that cover. 🤦‍♀️ People often also don’t know the correct way to create a book on Goodreads. My editor is a Goodreads librarian and she hates it when I announce a preorder and one of my readers take me jt upon themselves to create the page for the book because there’s always a bunch of stuff she has to fix.

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

oh that's interesting! i'm not an avid goodreads user so i'm not super familiar with the inner workings of the site.

[@milkflavored]

Whoa, AI is working overtime, my friend and I literally had this conversation yesterday, down to naming Dramione and Reylo and Omegaverse as the highest offenders.

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

oh what great timing! it's definitely been a big discussion recently, which is what inspired me to make this video!

[@Worms-on-toast]

I knew other people felt this way but its so relieving to actually see it, i feel like since covid fandom spaces have shifted so much and i have felt totally blindsided, i know that spaces will always shift snd change and i LOVE that more people are getting into fandom spaces, but its never really felt this way before and i wish people newer to fandom spaces would be more respectful, lol, ty for making this, i feel like I'm not going so crazy haha

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

haha yeah you're definitely not going crazy! i do feel like there's been a significant shift since COVID, and I do think its in part due to tiktok and algorithmic social media taking over and exposing fandom to a wider audience plus everyone getting more into 'inside hobbies' and media during that time period. its a little hard to characterize still because the shift is ongoing but there are definitely significant changes happening

[@jenifergarcia327]

selling commissions of fanfiction are so wild because it literally defeats the point of fanfic and its community 😭😭 fanfic is a HOBBY, its not labour bc youre putting effort in it. you're honing a craft ffs. monetizing everything bc putting effort on a craft that isnt involved in a business is seen as "labour" rather than just an activity is stupid and might be my most boomer take lol. And its 100% because readers feel entitled to fanfic they dont have to read and pressuring writers for updates, better quality, etc

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

yeah its super frustrating to see! it feels like people don't understand how communities work anymore and expect everything to work like a business :/

[@moonstone___]

refusing to allow work to be called labor because it’s unpaid is devaluing, not to mention over emphasizing the importance of monetary gain in society. labor has value without it being paid in money.

[@KitKat-pz9hp]

A hobby can be labor. Writing and editing a book for hours is definitely labor. Your argument makes no sense. Also, there is no “point” to fanfic except to transform another work in some way to tell a story.

[@Ella-g2m]

To credit the only fanfic I saw commissioned were smut. People be having fetishes.

[@atthebell4596]

Awesome video went from looking at dramione specifically to larger issues in fandom circles & monetization online a lumenvale classic

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

i do my best!

[@zhaklindyrmishi6054]

Omfg this video has the best timing bc i was just told about "manacled" and hated it so much and i needed a rant about it😂

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

Lollll good to know! I felt like I was actually a little late to the party 😭😭

[@whitneyurmann6228]

This bums me out. I adored manacled

[@acsaudiodramas]

Since there are payed commissions for fanart, I' wouldn't be surprised about payed commissions for fanfiction - BUT THIS here is crazy and BAD.

[@xilj4002]

Paid fanfic commissions exist. I've only seen it pop up a few times in the wild, if a summary or author's note advertises it on AO3 it won't stay up long, but there are certain sites where you can hire people to do various random tasks online and personalized fanfic is listed a lot

[@mrspreminger]

Omg so glad I found this channel! I love discussions about fandom and fanfiction!

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

that's awesome! thank you for watching!

[@sotruesoreal]

this violently throws me back to the deletion of dirty laundry😭

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

omg the voltron fic??? the voltron fandom seems like it was such a nightmare i can't even imagine...

[@sotruesoreal]

@@theunreliablenarratorshow it was the best of times it was the worst of times🙏

[@KitKat-pz9hp]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a Patreon, commissions, or tip jar for your fanfic, but I don't think you should be binding and selling other people's work. If Fanart can be monetized fanfic can be too. Period.

[@AnaCole]

My mom asked me if I've read Manacled. It was honestly so mortifying because I never told her I read fic and I have heard of Manacled and it was just literally so out of the blue.

[@torillama4275]

Just found this vid on my recommended and love your analysis! Subscribed 🥰 your channel looks so fun and is such a fun way to keep updated on the world of fandom I used to be so involved in

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

omg thank you so much! this was so nice to read

[@alananimus9145]

Okay so this is extremely technical but it depends on exactly how they are selling it if it is legal or not. If what they are selling is the binding and not the content then it's actually legal. Basically as long as the charge is for the external cover and the binding there is a legitimate claim to being legal. Also it's very difficult for authors/creators to claim that fanworks hurt them. This is because the research we have actually shows the opposite. The more and varied the amount of fam work the more valuable the original property becomes. This is why smart authors/creators will actually encourage fan works. It can amount to literally billions in free advertisements even if the person making the fan work has never read/seen the original work. If you actually check you will discover that many major companies and brands actually have TOS for fair use fan works. In part this is because they know they cannot control them, and in part this gives them a method to go after things they might have a problem with. It is highly doubtful that you would ever see a company take a fan to court because the companies actually stand a good chance of loosing if they do so. It's why the push for out of court settlements so hard.

[@chosendragonstask]

Arrg are we really now cannibalizing the work of other members of our fandoms???? For a dollar??? This stinks!!!

[@Rainette1412]

I can't conceive loving a fanfiction and yet chosing to buy a stolen binded physical version. It's so disrespectful to the author... Usually this kinda stuff won't really affect the actual author of the thing the fandom is based on (especially fucking Harry Potter), but making money from stolen fanwork, free labor of pure passion ? That's plain wrong.

[@rivermaxwell3834]

I hand bind fanfiction for personal use or sometimes as a gift to a friend, but always with the intent to keep it and always with the fic author's permission. I even tell my friends that if you don't want it anymore or can't have it for any particular reason, send it back to me. Fanfiction is a hobby and a labor of love, the same with fanbinding. It shouldn't be an act based on money but passion for your community. I bookbind because I love the works I read, and I love the communities I'm in and would adore bringing them with me in day-to-day life. That can never be sold or bought. It's a disgrace to bookbinding and fandom as a whole to sell fanfiction,

[@marysnyder9405]

I had a conversation the other day with someone on booktok. The video was about things her husband read, and I was like "my husband only reads Warhammer 40k novels 😔" and this girl responded and said "mine too! But he LOVED Manacled" and I was really excited to hear about something that might expand my husband's interests. But I couldn't find it on Goodreads, so I messaged her asking what it was and where I could find it. She told me what is was and I had to be like.. oh, haha. We're not Harry Potter fans. Thanks though! I was baffled, honestly. Like back in the day, you wouldn't really rec a fanfic unless you knew that the other person liked fanfic. To have Dramonie recommend to me like an actual book was surprising, especially because all the circles I run in are anti-JKR.

[@ponyoholt1846]

I think ıt makes sense that dramonie doesnt read like fanfiction much. Fanfiction authors mostly read and get their style from other fanfictions ands its a very queer space. Dramonie readers probably like published straight romance books. As it can also be seen from it becoming popular on tiktok

[@Space.Panda1805]

NOOOOOOOOOOO This title is my end, I've been reading fanfics since 2006 and my 29 years old now. I don't want to stop reading 😭😭 Delete Tiktok, that's the main problem in soo many things, not our precius fanfiction.

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

tiktok is truly terrible in so many ways i agree

[@klimptone9076]

I think fanfiction has a lot more going for it in terms of fair use than just it's lack of commercial use. There is the transformative aspect and the fact that it is very rarely seen as a substitute for the source material. Let's not forget that the original fanfiction from back in the days before the internet were published in zines and sold at conventions alongside other monetary fan products that are still produced like fanart, stickers, prints, etc. I honestly don't think this trend in book binding is nearly as big of a problem as you're implying, since they seem pretty small scale. Yes, they're selling for high costs but that is specifically *because* they're so small scale. They are 100s of dollars because they barely cover production costs for the people that make them out of passion. I would hope they'd get the original fic writers' permission before they make them, but otherwise I think this is perfectly harmless. I love fanfiction and I love that it's free and available to anyone who's interested, but I don't think that your examples of creatives on extremely bare margins making custom bound books is going to be what ruins it.

[@julietfischer5056]

Fanfiction is older even than that. Those ancient Greek plays you learned about in school? Fanfiction of the original myths and stories. Stories about King Arthur or Charlemagne (and their knights)? Fanfiction, and we know Charlemagne was a real person. The _Aeneid_ is a fanfiction continuation of the _Iliad,_ and Geoffrey of Monmouth's _History of the Kings of Britain_ starts with the grandson of Aeneas and merges into fanfiction of the myths and legends of Britain (including an early version of King Arthur). There are medieval stories based (sometimes loosely) on Classical myths and Bible stories, or that hare off in unexpected ways (Julius Caesar as the father of Oberon, King of the Fairies?). Unauthorized continuations and sequels to popular fiction followed. Henry Fielding was so annoyed by _Pamela_ that he wrote _Shamela,_ and then _Joseph Andrews,_ in response (the latter book purportedly about Pamela's brother). _Edison's Conquest of Mars_ was someone else's continuation of _The War of the Worlds._ There were the 'Tom shows' supposedly based on _Uncle Tom's Cabin_ (and responsible for many of the misconceptions about that book). And more besides, until copyright law protected authors' output. (The 19th Century also saw the print equivalent of 'mockbusters' in the form of barely-disguised rip-offs of the works of better-selling authors.)

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

Well, as I mention in the video, it was a little bit of hyperbole -- I doubt that bookbinders will in fact actually get fic made illegal, but I also think you may be somewhat underestimating how litigious companies can be over their IP. Overall, I do think that the larger issue is the cultural shift I see towards monetization in fandom, which I would directly link to the societal pressures of late stage capitalist society as a whole, which places the vast majority of people in incredibly unstable financial positions. I also personally just find the idea of binding and selling someone else's fanfiction and someone else's art to be incredibly distasteful, regardless.

[@Edwiio]

9:10 id probably say that's more classist than racist- or like a blend

[@moonstone___]

classism and racism are intrinsically linked.

[@AmiraTBH-r6z]

we live in hell, don't we? Great video and the last message is on point

[@jalennott8208]

fanfiction has come up in court…

[@anthropomorphicpeanut6160]

New sub here!

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

Thank you so much!

[@PotterSwiftie]

watching this video as a fanfic author ✊

[@moony2414]

That's so true I used to be on wattpad a lot a couple of years ago, but now it's basically unusable (Btw is that richarlyson in the back? Lmao, i miss him)

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

YES lmao its richas. my son my son my baby

[@Vishakha_B897]

I LOVE DRAMIONE!!! I DON'T CARE!! ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@gabol_zabol]

here before 100k subs

[@gyusheaven]

mana essa música de fundo que tu coloca é insuportável, tira pelo amor de deus

[@wolfwatch9731]

you had me until your point about people critiquing fanfiction without the author asking for it. im sorry but you either want people to respect fanfiction for the art form that it is and take it more seriously than they do or you want people to treat it like a 12 year old's class project that you're not allowed to say anything mean about. you can't have both. i think if you're publishing your fanfiction for other people to see (and, on websites that allow you to disable them, deciding to leave comments on) it's open for criticism the same as a traditionally published novel. people who think otherwise don't make any sense at all to me.

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

well, i understand why you may think that. i personally think of it more along the lines of if someone i knew drew a nice picture and showed it to me, i wouldn't immediately start telling them how much i hated their composition. i just don't think it's a polite thing to do

[@wolfwatch9731]

@@theunreliablenarratorshow and if we were talking about fanfiction shown to personal friends or do a smaller, more close-knit online group, i would agree with you. however when it’s posted to something like ffn or ao3, i don’t think those same rules apply.

[@atthebell4596]

​@@wolfwatch9731 Published authors have rounds and rounds of editing and can be judged professionally since they're, you know, paid. Fic authors are doing this for free and posting to the existing fic platforms they know of, which makes it much easier to share with friends & other community members. It's fair to want some level of recognition even if you don't want to be as well-known as a published author. The entire premise of this video is that fic should stay a non-commercial hobby, which means it should not be judged to the same standards as professional work. Lumen isn't saying there should be a law against it; she's saying this newer attitude that unprompted criticism is completely fine because fic is public and because some people seek to commercialize it is part of the whole problem.

[@atthebell4596]

Also there's a serious difference between "know as an author that you might get negative comments when you post things publicly" and "it's okay for me to be rude to random people online without prompting"

[@wolfwatch9731]

@@atthebell4596 what about my comment made you think that i think fanfiction should be commercial or that it is *the exact same* as traditionally published work? where did i say that she thinks there should be a law against criticism (what even??)? just because something is done for free doesn't mean it's above criticism. again, if you're sharing something in a private group or with friends, that's one thing. but the moment you post something to, essentially, the general public, that's fair game for critique the same as *literally any piece of art* regardless of it was paid or not. you don't post fanfiction on ffn or ao3 or other sites for any reason other than people seeing it. like if you genuinely think that something being free automatically exempts it from criticism im sorry i cant help you youre just dumber than rocks

[@steldalcien8699]

Idk but in our country and for Gen Z, fanfic is out, AU (twitter & tiktok) stories in. Just hits diff 🤷

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

I've read AUs before! In my experience, they are also fanfiction! In fact, "AU" is actually a word from the world of fanfiction

[@adapienkowska2605]

AU is a type of fanfiction.

[@Mai-df8sv]

AU means alternate universe so it still categorized as fanfic

[@12me91]

Finally. Lets hope it stays that way

[@chillichan]

Why do you move in such strange ways when you talk? 🤨

[@julietfischer5056]

Because everybody moves when they talk, and some people move more than others?

[@theunreliablenarratorshow]

why are you rude to strangers online

[@julietfischer5056]

I do the same things when I talk. Lots of hand and arm movements. Did you want a talking head?