The Draka : An American Dystopia

[@sebastianprimomija8375]

The Draka is what the Enclave from Fallout wished they could be.

[@hafizihilmibinabdulhalim1004]

And the Austrian Painter

[@marshmallowbudgie]

or the Legion

[@404_nowheresnotfound3]

I don't really thing that the Enclave, Funny mustache man or The Legion are that comparable to the Draka outside of a surface view.

[@georgestauber2636]

lol no

[@randomguyontheinternet8345]

the Enclave and the Draka are one and the same

[@eliharman]

"No one wants to lead the charge because the first rank dies." Exactly the dilemma we're in.

[@n8zog584]

How so?

[@floydbaker2240]

I hear that, man.

[@DEFC0NZER0]

​@@n8zog584 In the context of the current US, many Americans want to reform the current government into a freer, more constitutional system like what the Founding Fathers intended. The issue is that nobody wants to start it for a variety of reasons, fear of death and persecution being one of them.

[@101Mant]

​@@DEFC0NZER0why do people care what the founding fathers wanted? They wanted a government run by an elite for a start. They would probably be horrified women and black people can vote. They also couldn't have predicted the modern world and it's challenges and values. Make a better world now, not something a bunch of guys dead centuries ago would want.

[@wizkidgamer9942]

I'm pretty sure that's why in the ancient world, the ones in the front were given the most honor and prestige. Because it takes that sort of promise of glory to inspire people to face certain death in that way

[@Rocketsong]

“Whatever happens, we have got The Maxim gun, and they have not.” ― Hilaire Belloc

[@RedCascadian]

But the real question is... is it *really* a Stirling book without super-fit lesbians having sex?

[@howardyeager7142]

I haven't read it in years, but under the yoke I think it had slave girls preforming that service

[@Detson404]

Well, the Draka weren’t short of that; that’s for sure.

[@TempleofBrendaSong]

I don’t mind the SA lesbians 🇿🇦

[@zackarysullivan9019]

Do you mind listing some examples for…research?

[@howardyeager7142]

@@zackarysullivan9019 in the book where they controlled Europe there was an American, the Draka female lead was explaining how her maid was well a just to

[@morganharvey2041]

And the eternal question - is it ‘Drayker’ or ‘Drahkah’. I favour the latter as it sounds more Afrikaans.

[@feralhistorian]

When I first read it (scary to think how long ago that was) I went with "Drah-ka" Now I very consciously go with "Dray-ka" on the logic that SIr Francis Drake led to Drakia, condensed to Draka down the line. I suspect if we asked Stirling he'd give different answers just to mess with us, like Lovecraft did when asked how to pronounce Cthulu.

[@markusbaur2128]

@@feralhistorian .. his usual answer in the mailingl ist is "heh-heh-heh" 8)

[@zimriel]

I'd just go with regional differences in pronunciation.

[@Ghoulonoid]

Can never go wrong with more Draka content. I remember a lot of the older criticisms of the Alliance was just how dumb and short-sighted it acted, even letting the Draka get away with invading India and basically doing nothing about it. Clearly, real countries, especially those at the apex of their power, never act so idiotic. Right. That perception sure has aged well.

[@Albemarle7]

From 1775 on up to 11/22/1963 the USA had the luck of the Draka. Our timeline is as implausible as their's is.

[@Sedgewise47]

🤷‍♂️ Well-to be fair, India did secede from the Alliance…

[@dfmrcv862]

Not in the 1700s or 1800s. This is an era where Britain went to war with China over China not letting them bring in Opium.

[@Mortablunt]

Bad parallel, go learn about the genocide Ukraine was perpetuating on its own people and who was enabling it.

[@kamaeq]

And the Domination was prepped and ready to roll as soon as the secession happened while the Alliance needed months to prep, ship stuff and deploy. Just like the USA today in a major conflict. Also, like in multiple brushfire wars against the Communists, they feared escalating into a nuclear conflict.

[@Albemarle7]

The author, SM Stirling aka S&M Stirling does not realize what a grand ( though disturbing) work of art he has created.

[@markusbaur2128]

he knows .. we tell him so evewry third day [ok .. that is a slight hyperbole] or so in our mailing list (where he is a member, even somtiomes active)

[@Detson404]

He posted a response to this video so I think he knows!

[@Sedgewise47]

@@markusbaur2128 ( 😬!! 😮!…[ 😏!!] )

[@kamaeq]

@@Albemarle7 IMO, he knows and regrets Jim Baen's directive that the bad guys cannot win.

[@czarkusa2018]

So true, someone came up with all of this without imagining it having any significance.

[@simontmn]

From a non American perspective, the USA is the worst possible world empire - except for all the others.

[@icedancer2370]

As an American, that makes sense. We were never supposed to be this globally influential.

[@flyingsquirrell6953]

Idk what that means, sorry 😭

[@simontmn]

@@flyingsquirrell6953 Winston Churchill said that Democracy was the worst system of government, except for all the others. Ie highly flawed but still the best.

[@Hugebull]

@@simontmn He never got to see what it became. The Managed Democracy of Britain and the United States was very different back in the day. When you read the books by Winston Churchill, he gives a deep dive to how the British political system worked back then. Very different. Very different indeed.

[@simontmn]

@@Hugebull so I was using Churchill's phrase, but referring to imperialism not democracy.

[@stronggoodies3871]

You convinced me to go and actually read all of the books

[@morganharvey2041]

They’re legitimately epic. Try and get the original 3 books separately, not the omnibus. They leave whole sections out in the omnibus and don’t include the appendices. Well worth the extra money.

[@TheCorrodedMan]

They’re good, but Stirling has a bad habit of “writing with one hand” if you catch my meaning.

[@DarkVeghetta]

@@TheCorrodedMan Was it really a bad habit, or part of the appeal? Couldn't say, myself, since I haven't read it. However, the lesbian shenanigans briefly mentioned in the video likely piqued the interest of more than a few viewers.

[@TheCorrodedMan]

@@DarkVeghetta it’s tolerable, and preferable if you do enjoy that sort of thing as a kind of recreational exercise, but it’s sort of gratuitous. The whole third book could be summed up as a lesbian slaver being sad about the death of her extremely hot pornstar lesbian girlfriend. Fine lore, and interesting plot, but I could do without the constant “cave diving” if you catch my drift.

[@T_Kelso]

Your videos on the Draka have always been my favourite; perhaps just because hierarchy and agrarianism are aesthetically very pleasing to me. There's something most relaxing about listening to an American's sage ramblings about this particular book series. If it's possible to milk more content out of the Draka, please do!

[@feralhistorian]

Every time I think about the Draka books something new occurs to me and I haven't even covered Drakon yet. I think it's safe to say there will be more Draka.

[@The_violet_lord]

@@feralhistorian thank goodness. i thought the series was over on the draker

[@theamazingsandwich1994]

I don't think anyone else has the panache to do the Draka books. If someone else were to do it they'd ether decry the novels as fascist fanfare, or come off looking like a "windmill enthusiast" themselves. FH found the very small, safe, middle ground. -----End thought If you keep making videos your going to blow up I never heard about you a month ago now I beckon at your every KZbin post.

[@kylejamesdalzell2839]

@@feralhistorian If I may ask, what is your educational background? You strike me as extremely well educated.

[@Albemarle7]

@@The_violet_lord The Author does not like this creation of his. Remember AC Doyle came to hate Sherlock Holmes. I wish there is a place for Draka fan fic. I have a story for it all but written.

[@chriscooper654]

Good analysis. Sterling definitely has his strengths as a writer; his characterization (in "Marching Through Georgia") of the American journalist Dreiser and the Draka officer Eric von Shrakenberg is fascinating in how their respective cultural blind spots are invisible to themselves, yet glaringly obvious to each other.

[@jamessmitgaming9091]

As an Afrikaans South African, it's kinda surreal that thinking about my ethno-linguistic group being assimilated into something like the Draka.

[@zimriel]

I recall Moldbug posting a link to "De La Rey" to emphasise his point that the Boer War was an "American Revolution" that failed.

[@JanosBanics]

Rhodesia to. God bless Rhodesia.

[@MIKE_THE_BRUMMIE]

Rhodesia was stabbed in the back and sacrificed on the alta of global progression, well look at the result on the home nation. Sour reality was shelves for sweet fantasy.

[@sangomasmith]

If so, it shows that Molbug doesn't know much about history, or else shares that very American obsession with viewing all history through an American-centred lens. There are some parallels, but you could find just as many in, say, the Anglo-Zulu war once you've zoomed out and simplified that much.

[@sangomasmith]

As a fellow South African, all I can offer is that Pretoria apparently has a pretty vibrant bdsm scene, so there's a tiny bit of overlap there...

[@darrenrenna]

Discovered the Draka novels around 2009, always thought they were criminally underrated. So happy to see someone examining them in detail!

[@matthewriordon]

If you get a chance I imagine many people would love a video on the Orville Especially after the recent stark trek video I've started thinking about the similarities and differences also I love the videos!! Keep up the good work

[@crusader2112]

I concur. A video on The Orville would be good. 👍

[@mikebelcher7244]

If I recall right, most famously Jim Baen was not a big fan at all of the series and this eventually led to him and Stirling cutting ties. Baen just couldn't get behind the overwhelming negative endings where basically, even if they lost a fight the "bad guys won" (e.g Draka!). For myself, I read them all as they came out and certainly, there's a context there you can't ignore...we were at the height of the Cold War (I just finished my first tour in the FRG). It takes something to get you to sympathize with the Soviets especially in those times but I surely did when you understood what awaited those people when the Great War ended. At the end of the day though, and I think also some of Baens issue with the series, was that the Draka could only exist in that universe. by Stirling's own admission he purposely created the absolute worst version of America imaginable, turned up to even more horrific nightmare levels, and gave them all the breaks to boot. He put them in a world that made no sense in that no one reacted to their existance like history has shown how nation states react. After the domination of Africa, there would have been no doubt how the other powers of tthe world would have viewed/treated the Draka in reality. They might have been left to the continent (not really, more than likely other countries would have intervened/interfered for the resources alone). Stirling purposely wrote them into a geopolitical/military environment where everyone else blindly ignored the looming cancerous threat in their midst and did nothing about it until it was too late. And don't get me started on the the invasion and domination of India... A marry sue among fictional nations. It's always been a weak point among the books imo.

[@parvelshunk241]

To anyone who hasn't read these yet: I would strongly recommend you get the versions with the appendices in the back. Lots of cool, albeit bleak, world-building hidden in there. Also, I'm going to sound like a sicko for saying this, but I found the world of the Draka to be such an over-the-top grimdark Hellscape, and the Draka themselves so cartoonishly evil, that reading the series was perversely, morbidly really "Fun" in a WATCH IT ALL BURN!!! sort of way.

[@DadReadsAndCooksMeat]

Yes, the world building is really its strength.

[@zimriel]

you may be interested in the alt-hist "For All Time". Want to see the Presidential Election between Jim Jones (D) and Charles Manson (R)? There's how we get there.

[@chriscooper654]

Had a similar reaction myself, like having a nightmare so bad that afterward it feels cathartic.

[@soul1d]

I remember The Draka... man they were such.... villain-sues

[@andrewpytko4773]

No they weren't

[@benx6264]

it was on purpose. Stirling set out to create a crapsack world where everything went to hell in a handbasket. To do that he needed an evil bastard villain-sue.

[@levongevorgyan6789]

He likes those evil villain empires it seems. In Peshawar Lancers an asteroid devastates the planet and the Russian Empire devolves into a satanic cannibalistic regime, opposed to the Angrezi Raj.

[@JoshSweetvale]

The whole premise of the Draka was 'what if I weighed the dice, _all_ the dice. How bullshit and depraved can I make these guys while remaining in newtonian physics?" The result? John Galt does the Druchii.

[@biggiouschinnus7489]

@@JoshSweetvale Druchii are actually an excellent comparison that I;'d never thought of before

[@berylg52]

What a great commentary on the series. I was chilled by the concept of a modern, technologically advanced slave state and dismayed by the military fascist “Alliance for Democracy”. Please keep up with these commentaries!

[@3MoonTzu]

This is fantastic. I can’t believe I’ve never heard of this series or Stirling - and I wrote my dissertation about the rhetoric of dystopian fiction. 😳 Thank you for this. I’m going to read the Domination of Draka series ASAP. This is the kind of content that makes KZbin essential.

[@feralhistorian]

I recommend finding the original volumes, they have extensive appendices about the world that Stirling set the story in. The series was later collecting into a single volume titled "The Domination" but it's abridged and has some other editorial decisions that detract from it a bit.

[@gawkthimm6030]

@@feralhistorian you can find the appendices online

[@thedragondemands5186]

I’ve been looking forward to you covering this again

[@turkeytrac1]

I remember ignoring this series, now I'm going to have to read this. Thanks for you insights. Lots to think about.

[@mathewdobson4810]

Sir Francis Drake; the Aristocratic Stone Age Murder Monkey who started it all! Thank you SM Stirling for these novels. I have wondered what you think of the "Dies the Fire" Series.

[@feralhistorian]

I've been meaning to cover Dies the Fire for a long time. I don't know why it's taking so long to get it together.

[@tylersmith3139]

Small correction, but the Soviet Union collapse because of the constant revolutions from Soviet citizens. They didn't accept it and Soviet citizens were far better off than slaves, even if they lived in an oppressive society. The Draka premise also fails with its colonization of Africa and all of Asia/enormous swathes of land whilst never getting overextended. The British were only able to colonize Africa through Protectorates, eventually beating the armies of the rulers of African kingdoms and then negotiating vassalhood. They could never succeed in subduing the actual civilian population, for example, after the British defeated Zulu King Cetshwayo in the Anglo-Zulu war, they deposed him, but had to reinstall him after the entirety of Zululand erupted in rebellion. The British made a lot of concessions to local leaders as well as heavily restricted education to natives that it worked with as administrators to keep their empire and even with all this manipulation as well as a ton of violence and war crimes, they still couldn't suppress independence movements and eventually had to give most of their empire. The Draka could not have enslaved two entire continents as shown in the books.

[@robertlehnert4148]

Because of toxic fandom, SM Stirling refuses to discuss his Draka stories, in person or online. Shame.

[@chrisferatu1793]

It’s also a shame that accusations of “toxic fandom” are increasingly used to justify creators’ refusal to meaningfully engage with their audiences.

[@robertlehnert4148]

@@chrisferatu1793 Steve is actually quite willing to discuss his Emberverse and Black Chamber books, perhaps even his Shadow Spawn as well, but the Draka books are another thing.

[@ryan.1990]

People are way too politicised these days

[@grimnir2922]

​​@@ryan.1990 I'm very curious how you're going to avoid politics when talking about an alternate history of the United States centered around its "evil twin." Just calling it that brings a lot to unpack because I'm positive there's a number of fans who would have called it a utopia (that's just statistics). See where it might get a little hard for things not to get heated? I don't blame him for preferring not to discuss it with others.

[@ryan.1990]

@@grimnir2922 I mean references to current politics, the tired attempts to draw comparisons with villain X and your politician of choice, the tribalism, the insufferable witch hunts to find "racists" under every rock, etc. ad nauseam. I've yet to finish the books so I can't comment but the Draka are an improvement on current SAfrica at least!

[@ImperatorZor]

In Tokugawa Japan there were the Four Orders: Samurai, Peasants, Artisans and Merchants, plus an informal class of outcasts who did a bunch of mucky jobs and the small and powerless court nobility hovering around the Emperor in Kyoto. Samurai were in charge. They held effectively all formal positions of power in the Tokugawa state. They ruled the provinces, the cities, the districts. They were police, inspectors, overseers and more. Commoners had to bow before Samurai, if they failed to do so the Samurai could draw his katana and chop off their heads. Never the less, beneath the Samurai the various subordinate classes did not merely acquiesce. They pushed against them in numerous small ways. The merchant class in particular grew powerful in the shadow of the Samurai and despite efforts to keep it in line. They became adept at working around the formal limits of their station. When the Meiji Restoration happened, many non samurai joined up with the Imperials specifically to topple the Shogunate and the Four Orders were abolished by the Meiji Constitution. The important thing to know is that No Man Rules Alone. In the case of the Domination, no class rules alone. The Draka in the books would have to hand over considerable power to key serfs to keep things operating. Restrictions on Education would in truth only make this more difficult. You can fire an accountant if they use their position to line their own pockets. We train lots of people to do these jobs and they have a broad base. A Serf Accountant who does the same thing may be executed, but that causes it's own problems as there are not many educated serfs and since Draka education is narrow you can't just transfer in someone from IT or Records. Definitely not just an illiterate plantation hand. The Snakes can play a game of Wack-A-Mole trying to suppress them (which has costs including corruption, investigations, buying and training replacements and opportunity costs from vacant positions not easily filled) or you might try raising the standards of living for serf accountants and other such essential functionaries (and incidentally increase the size of that class, since this will require more goods for serf accountants, which will require new factories to make them and by extension produce more serf accountants, technicians, etc). Either way, you can have substantial power blocks beneath the Citizen body which can in aggregate exert influence. Especially when they realize that while they might be able to get minor bribes and favours on their own, they could reap major gains working together.

[@TheCorrodedMan]

I’ve always enjoyed the Draka series in a way few other book series have managed to grip me. The idea of a society of such unrepentant individuals existing was always a major sore spot for me, of course, but it’s as they say “in an infinite universe, all things are possible” Or in an infinite _multiverse,_ if you’d rather I be appropriate to the setting. They even went on to inspire the heroes of a setting I’ve developed, partly as a means of “redeeming” the Draka and also as an excuse to mix my interests by using Spore to recreate events in my stories: the “Haadis,” native to the Hellworld of Haadis Primus -a planet analogous to the untamed dark continent, only the danger scale was turned up to 50 and then ripped out of the machine. They speak a language known as Drakspaek, which to everyone else just sounds like grunts and low growls, but is in reality a highly complex language formed of low frequency sounds that the Haadis developed during their tribal past, when they were hunted constantly by the innumerable predators and rival tribes of their homeworld. As a result of circumstances outside of the Haadis’s control, they evolved to resemble the galaxies typical depiction of demons: horned, red skinned, with reptilian legs and a barbed tail. This has led many to believe them to be warmongering or outright malevolent, but they are in reality a very social and emotional species that prizes the sanctity of _All_ life over the preservation or enrichment of their own, often throwing millions of soldiers at a single world so long as the end result would be a free, bio-diverse planet. Their empire is comprised of a only handful of colonies, organized into five strictly distinct Sectors, with the majority of life-bearing worlds instead being transformed into planet-wide nature preserves where the Haadis can visit, observe, and even hunt, though they only do this last as a ritual of strength, meant to initiate the young into adulthood. One such world is Dire, which has recently been granted independent status due to the evolution of an intelligent race upon it, known as Di’rihn: minor note, the Di’rihn are essentially Centaurs, a reference to Drakon and the earthbound hunting preserves where Draka can hunt mythical creatures such as dragons or Centaurs. And of course, they keep slaves. Thankfully, however, they’ve never kept _sentient_ slaves. The Haadis made the transition from animal to sentience gradually, which meant in many cases that there were those who simply couldn’t look after themselves. These “Bondsmen” were taken into Haadisian homes and cared for in exchange for basic manual labor, such as tending to the animals in the fields or cleaning the house. Eventually, though, this became an unsustainable practice, and the Haadis were forced to adapt. All of their work in the modern day is done by a race of advanced robotic constructs, known as Anim’Haadi, or Metal Haadis, who have no true intelligence or desires outside of their pre-programmed tasks. They don’t rebel, because they don’t very much care about living conditions or their own personal state in the empire. They don’t need manumission, because all Anim’Haadi do not view themselves as slaves; they are servants, yes, but they serve of their own choice, with no repercussions should they refuse an order due to danger to themselves or others. They’re even acknowledged by the Emperor as vital contributors to the Empire as a whole, naming them his “Stalwart Iron Hands,” with which he might “carry the People upon his back” To stand in for Sir Francis Drake, they instead have their very first emperor and, most recently, messiah(as recognized by the ruling church, the Temple of the Heavenly Overseers), Saren Taz’ak. So great was Saren that even to this day, the imperial family still carries his last name, to show that his line is unbreakable, even when a new family takes the throne. Emperors are elected rather than born; chosen from among the noble houses by a conclave of elder statesmen known as the Imperial Council. Upon their ascension, the new Emperor is renamed and accepted into the Imperial House of Taz’ak, where they themselves will be seen as family for as long as they live, despite having never been born into the house.

[@officialdcshepard]

I keep looking into these books and being fascinated by the thought process behind them and what they were trying to say, and I have to say your explanation about Draka being America’s dark twin makes a lot of sense, and is also a nuanced rebuttal of the surface level criticisms of the Draka’s (still pretty) unrealistic serfdom even I had. Therefore I have subscribed (though I would caution you to not use AI images quite so much- they were distractingly bad 😂 and I will always criticize their use as a shortcut) and will eagerly watch your videos as I make my own amateur history content. In particular I’ll try to make as thoughtful and informative a response as I can to your point about “America not having a national identity anymore” which feels somewhat true but also not, yet is thought provoking. That having been said, even reading these books in high school I knew they were terrible, more like historical fantasy than alternate history. If your alternate history relies on everyone else conveniently ignoring an entire continent that was well fought over in real history just to allow your author’s pet to win while having mostly the exact same people doing the exact same things, you’ve already lost any suspension of disbelief by me, regardless of interesting commentary under the surface. Sometimes I feel like the rise in the late oughts, early 10s of faux-knowledgeable Internet nitpick culture (which I wasn’t immune to) has destroyed a lot of creative risk taking but this isn’t a nitpick- it’s a semi-truck sized hole in your worldbuilding that the More Realistic Draka Timeline that’s been archived corrected years and years ago. These kinds of things are easier to accept in Eric Flint’s 1632 series or Harry Turtledove’s Worldwar because they a.) diverge at ONE point and b.) are very fantastical in their premise then grounded in execution.

[@danjudex2475]

Another thing that I got from your description is that. Now mind you I just now heard about this series. Is that I can’t help notice how it parallels another historical event. The Peloponnesian war. To give a brief explanation before getting into some specifics. The Peloponnesian war was between Athens and Sparta for control over all of Greece. The first and most obvious example is that of the rough comparison between the Spartan caste system and the Drakan caste system. Both are systems with an upper class of foreign conquerors ruling over a massive slave class that is kept in line through fear and is maintained by the fear of a slave uprising. There is also the comparison between the Alliance and Athens with the Pan-Hellenic league. While Athens was the “birthplace of democracy” it didn’t share its democracy with others. Often treating those who even slightly hindered them rather tyrannically. The most famous example of this is Melinan dialogue. Where the Athenians threaten the people of Melos to either surrender and become a tribute state to Athens or be destroyed with the Athenian general uttering the famous phrase: “the strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must.” The war also ended the same way with oppressive forces that had a authoritarian slave economy defeating the “democracy”. Hell, you can say that the ww2 of this series echoes the Persian wars as these 2 forces ally together in defeating a common enemy. So it can be interpreted as seeing in these books, a retelling of that story fought in that rocky peninsula; expanded to encompass the whole world.

[@aker1993]

in the end the Draka power entropy thought time as seen on the Drakon novel as the people on that New American generation ship manage to give the Draka a bloody nose.

[@Albemarle7]

The trilogy could make dominating miniseries.

[@BrendanSchmelter]

It would. But the series would be given the Man in the High Castle treatment... because of it's themes + Wokeness.

[@Emanon...]

Seriously fuck off with the whole "because of wokeness" schtick. The Boys. GoT. The Expanse. Woke? Or is it just "woke" if you happen to disagree with it. Come to think of it, please define "woke" in this instance for me. I dare you.

[@kylejamesdalzell2839]

Something similar in tone nearly happened at the hands of the Game of Thrones show runners. They wanted to do a series about the Confederacy defeating the North and the society that results from that happening. But there were no takers from the big networks and media companies. No one wanted to be associated with such a project due to the current climate.

[@Albemarle7]

@@kylejamesdalzell2839 Considering that the villains are white with an almost Southern accent, I am surprised that Hollywood has not already grabbed it.

[@kylevidauri4869]

I need to read these novels now. Also happy subscription, this channel is severely underrated.

[@therealkillerb7643]

The Draka series was the most disturbing books I have ever read - and the only ones that after reading them I threw away. Stirling managed to capture something truly wicked and perverse in the human condition. However once exposed, it does not do the soul any good to dwell on them.

[@BTScriviner]

What I found scary about the books is how Stirling makes slavery sound reasonable until you have to remind yourself that the Draka OWN other human beings.

[@joatsimeon1]

Ah, at last someone really gets it!

[@gregmita]

Simeon and Joat are characters from an Anne McCaffrey book that she did with S. M. Stirling. You are a long time fan I guess?

[@markusbaur2128]

@@gregmita - * cashirecatsmile *

[@tarlneustaedter]

@@gregmita The proper answer to that question should be “heh heh heh” :-)

[@djolds1]

@@gregmita Smartass. 🤔

[@Detson404]

@@gregmitaThat’s the man himself

[@cane6074]

The Draka series is Paul Verhoeven's Starship Troopers meets Harry Hurtledoves Alternative History storytelling, with a tad of the Turner Diaries thrown into it, but it's meant to be negative, not positive unlike the last example given. March through Georgia was awesome. I have not gone around to reading the other two books of the series.

[@feralhistorian]

Many people vehemently disagree with me on this, but I think book 2 (Under the Yoke) is the weakest of the trilogy. Not bad, but not as good as Marching Through Georgia or Stone Dogs.

[@cane6074]

@@feralhistorian I'll check them out and see for myself.

[@joshjonson2368]

How is it negstive when it's the grandiose goal of every white nationalist to be recognised as the finest specimen of human evolution whose bounty is the entire earth itself?

[@thehistorian1232]

Lots to think about in this video. As always, I appreciate your perspective and its compelling fusion of (right-ish) libertarian values with left-wing analysis. The lesbian sex thing was surprising and made me think of another “ironic but not-really dystopia” the late capitalist hell of Cory Doctorow’s Walkaway. I’d love to see a Feral Historian take on that one, someday.

[@randomguyontheinternet8345]

I actually want to read the books now. That’s fascinating. Also the draka are Basically the Enclave (Fallout)

[@mojrimibnharb4584]

Overall an excellent analysis, including elements I had overlooked when I read them in my youth. However, your comparison of Draka "serfdom" to the USSR under Stalin is ahistorical. While the latter certainly included fear of the state it was largely driven by pride in the supranational project.

[@josephthomas4797]

Holy shit… Well this made me hit the subscribe button. Looking forward to more videos and I’ll be checking out your Fallout content also 🤘

[@KnightofRome01]

I loved your videos on the trilogy when I found your videos on the last summer, and I got me to read them. So I was very excited when I saw this on my subscription.

[@theellimist9472]

This video is one of my favorites of all your videos

[@MarkAndrewEdwards]

My problem with Stirling and the Draka series is that the Draka may be a dystopia but it's a dystopia that Stirling seems to be in love with. It reminds me more of John Norman's love of his dystopia. I appreciate the review but I just don't like this series.

[@DadReadsAndCooksMeat]

I didn't get that from it at all. None of the Draka are heroes. Eric sent his (serf) daughter to America. rather than have her be a serf. He wants to kill himself (through reckless combat) rather than be a part of it, but he succumbs at the end of the first book. And it's for love of his friends. Not country. I found it quite tragic.

[@Detson404]

Yeah which is why I don’t totally buy the “it’s a dystopia you twit!” He did something similar in “Conquistador.” I think Stirling believes that some beautiful things can only be preserved by brutal autocracy.

[@SirHarryFlashman]

Based upon Stirling’s political opinions, I suspect he is in love with the Alliance.

[@Detson404]

@@SirHarryFlashman I think Mr. Stirling would prefer the Alliance win. Not quite the same thing.

[@SirHarryFlashman]

@@Detson404 Stirling seems to hold those with antiquated or anti-progressive beliefs in a very low regard. With a few exceptions, the Draka are pretty antiquated. The Alliance meanwhile is a neoconservative superstate that exists to destroy the Draka. Once you look past the dystopian narrative, it’s clear Stirling’s ideal state would be much closer to the Alliance than the Domination.

[@Detson404]

Love seeing the draka get some cultural currency. My current stellaris game is playing as the Draka, and I’m secretly hoping to lose lol.

[@morganharvey2041]

I play the Draka in Stellaris too lol Genetic Ascendancy FTW lol

[@Detson404]

@@morganharvey2041 right? Coupled with syncretic evolution and it’s pretty spot on.

[@smokejaguar986]

I hate the draka and I hope you lose too, no disrespect

[@drakashrakenburgproduction5369]

@@morganharvey2041I’m genuinely surprise no one made a Domination of the Draka mod for Hoi4

[@DEFC0NZER0]

​@@drakashrakenburgproduction5369 Same. It took me a while through the Steam Workshop to realize no such mod exists.

[@samsonvlogging1202]

Yup, I gotta read Marching through Georgia now. I know this is sorta off subject, but Feral Historian have you ever read Jared Diamond's book Guns, Germs and Steel? If you have, what do you think of Jared Diamond and his other works?

[@feralhistorian]

I read Guns, Germs and Steel wayyy back. I remember thinking he made a lot of good points, but that he tried a little too hard to make everything fit his thesis. But he did make me think about some things I hadn't considered before, for example how the availability of animals that can be domesticated both for food and labor affects a society's development versus those who don't have them. Can't plow a field with pigs after all.

[@DadReadsAndCooksMeat]

I loved Guns, Germs n Steel. Fascinated by the anecdote of the people on (I think New Guinea) building landing strips to intice cargo planes to land, like they'd seen American soldiers do.

[@kj_heichou]

Have you ever considered making content about Serenity/Firefly. I think some of its worldbuilding aspects are very interesting to analyze.

[@Detson404]

He made a video about how the message of Serenity no longer works

[@Rocketsong]

Still want to hear about the Founder Effect and the Emberverse.

[@feralhistorian]

I was writing on that a bit yesterday as a matter of fact. The more I think about it, the more there is to say.

[@kollobarn]

Great Draka video, very though-provoking. Have you saved the images somewhere? It's hard to find any draka images online.

[@feralhistorian]

I have a few Draka pics up at a Deviantart page, www.deviantart.com/kiltcat/gallery I don't have any of the heavily AI-assisted stuff up there, but I think the older pics I did without those tools are the best ones anyway.

[@williamvorkosigan5151]

Superb as always. I have seen all the videos on this channel. Most books discussed I have read, but I have not touched the Draka novels. Future vistas rather than alternate histories are generally my interest (Heinlein being my all time favourite author). I wander if I want to give these a cautious go. Are they well written?

[@feralhistorian]

They're definitely worth a read. Each book is quite different from the previous. Marching Through Georgia is a straight war story, though with a lot of digressions. Under The Yoke is all about consolidating conquests, resistance movements, and it takes a lot of jabs at exploitive shlock fiction. By book three, The Stone Dogs, it turns into sci-fi, with both major power blocs holding territory throughout the Solar System. Space battles, genetically modified fighting apes, all kinds of crazy stuff. Drakon, which I think of as the fourth book a trilogy, has alot of sci-fi elements, but it's in a parallel world set roughly contemporary to ours (at least back when it was written) and has a very different feel.

[@DadReadsAndCooksMeat]

They could use a going over by an editor to clean up some of the prose. They are "yesterday's world of tomorrow."

[@Detson404]

Stirling always does a good job. If his writing has faults, it’s never his prose.

[@Detson404]

If anybody needs a post-Draka palette cleanser, I recommend the fanfic “Proof Through the Night” by ChaserGray. It shows what might have happened if FDR had had a little more sense in how to deal with the Domination. “Oh, we sentimentalize, and wrap it in Hollywood glamour, but we don’t think. We don’t think about an entire continent crushed under a boot, and the promise of more to follow. And we don’t think of a people- my people- caught in a web of terrible choices and crimes that had forced them on a never ending cycle of conquest, oppression, and human misery. We don’t think of all the human beings wasting their potential as slaves or slavemasters, and of the few dozen men who woke them from two centuries of nightmare and gave them the one thing they thought they would never have. Choices. They must have made a mighty roar, those Allison turboprops, thundering over the Mediterranean and the African veldt that night. They must have, for their echoes have yet to vanish from this Earth.” -Yolande Ingolfsson, Nobel Prize in Literature Lecture, 1984”

[@feralhistorian]

Just found it. I'll give it a look.

[@drakashrakenburgproduction5369]

I also recommend the Bear and the Dragon and the Final War

[@MM22966]

Thanks for the recommend! The story is well-written; feels very much like SM Stirling's style!

[@Anon_Amous]

Brilliant thesis. You earned a sub.

[@ManDuderGuy]

This is the kind of quality commentary/discussion that should be in our zeitgeist, as opposed to the dreck in "Mainstream Media". Feel like I should maybe tip my fedora, but I do mean what I typed.

[@madmusial]

This was a very interesting discussion. I stopped reading Sterling awhile ago but its nice to be reminded of an author I use to really enjoy.

[@masterofrockets]

19:38 you just drop that hint to read the book? You should have led with that.

[@crusader2112]

Love your work. Can you do a video on Harry S. Turtledove’s Southern Victory series? It’s an interesting series I’ve been meaning to get into and it would make a good video. 👍

[@feralhistorian]

That's a possibility. I never finished reading that series, it starts off really strong but the later books fall into that one-for-one equivalency that Turtledove does sometimes. My impressions of it are a little mixed.

[@crusader2112]

@@feralhistorian Okay thanks for the response. If you do plan to make a video, no rush.

[@Rocketsong]

@@feralhistorian Turledove has a bad habit of being repetitive over and over again. To the point where you find yourself saying to yourself, I've read this chapter, but it was in another series.

[@boobah5643]

@@feralhistorian My favorite book of his is _The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump,_ because half the point is the one-for-one equivalency. The other half (and what the plot eventually hinges on) are the little fillips that result from the exchange. For example, flying carpets replace cars, and the City of Angels consequently has a lint problem from all the carpets, but a fly-by assassination attempt is done by tossing an earth elemental at the target's carpet; the elemental's earth negates the air enchantment on the carpet, leading to a (hopefully) fatal crash. It worked less well for his 'WWII only magic' series, because he'd written two or three mildly alternate WWIIs by that point, and it was mostly more of the same. It never really mattered that the 'Japanese' were blonds with really bushy beards or that they were armed with magic staves rather than rifles; it was just Turtledove's take on WWII _again._

[@Detson404]

Guns of the South is a fun read, maybe that’s an alternative?

[@morganharvey2041]

Seeing this reminded me I offered to help with the research a while back. Completely forgot - damnit!!!

[@Wtodesco]

I remember finding this series through a Wikipedia rabbit hole back in high school and it always seems to resurface in my conscience every couple of years. It’s nice to see someone finally cover it.

[@timmyturner327]

Good video, interesting analysis. I have subscribed.

[@Getssumfreedom]

never stop

[@yonker1219]

I think you migh be interested in Code Geass. A mecha anime with an imperialist state similar to the Draka, called the Holy Britannian Empire. Baiscally what if America lost the revolutionary war. But Britain gets invaded by republican france, so the british monarchy and other european nobles flee to British America. The empire had conquered all of the Americas, similar to how the Draka conquered all of Africa. I recomend watching the series, its really good.

[@CRJessen]

Just found your channel. I am so glad I did.

[@nightmareeyes9419]

5:43 what you describe as “Stalinism” is norm how it worked in ussr , you choose work you like and if needed state , knowing that your doing this work, can send you to less industrialized regions to assist them with development. You have a CHOICE of what to do , as much as various social features such as breaks , 8 hour work day , sometimes free apartments and else and else. What you describe is cast society

[@BullMooose]

Where’d you film this? I think I’d like to go hike there (thanks for sharing these sick books with us)

[@feralhistorian]

The Black Hills of South Dakota, just a few miles from the Wyoming border.

[@BullMooose]

@@feralhistorian thanks 🙏 I’ve always loved the Dakotas

[@RolandoRatas]

Wait a second are we not living in this Draka dystopia as peons right now ?

[@ragemonkey117]

Naw. Not even close lol.

[@CultureCrossed64]

This is why democracy is bad. You're probably allowed to vote

[@drakashrakenburgproduction5369]

Nope as bad as things are now I still think we are lucky that we are not in the Drakaverse. That is the point that S.M Stirling is making.

[@againsttheleftandright4065]

Slave-based economies do not survive indefinitely because slavery is an unsustainable system which leads to class conflict and technological stagnation. I remember this alternate history, I found it very naive. It's also extremely revisionist from a neoliberal point of view.

[@Andrew-xx3wo]

I found your channel after your Fatherland review, and now you do the Draka… I swear if I find out you’ve done Turtledove’s “Guns of the South” … I read all these 20 years ago in my teens 😅

[@feralhistorian]

I haven't gotten to Guns of the South . . . yet.

[@Andrew-xx3wo]

@@feralhistorian it’s a good one!

[@BTScriviner]

That was my trajectory just now. 🙂 Watched the Fatherland video and looked for the Draka video.

[@theotherohlourdespadua1131]

I want to know your opinion on the other Harry Turtledove series that has no name other than either "Southern Victory" or "TL-191"...

[@feralhistorian]

@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 The short answer is that I liked the first 2 books, but started to drift from them after that. I stopped during the WWII analog, finding it just too 1-for-1 in its parallels.

[@elperrodelautumo7511]

My version of Draka has it set in a mythical land called Lemuria. It does have its conquest origins with its native warrior groups.

[@krispalermo8133]

Sorry, Boba Fett just came to mind. Have you seen the actor's family ? ! In legends and when the Prequels recon him, and bits of Disney, Boba Fett had a lot of brothers .. in the millions. Pardon the phase, but Boba Fett is Legend in the Star Wars mythos. So is Baron Fel, who Thrawn mass cloned. The Vong war could have been better. As for overall regards to Book of Boba Fett, soon as Mando learn he is still alive. Dozens of Boba's nieces & nephews would show up. But it is a film with a budget, along with all the background B and C rated characters be to much to handle unlike a novel. South Pacific islanders are just way cool.

[@ChairmanKam]

14:28 This of course forgets that no such commitment survives entropy. Just ask Gorbochov.

[@davydatwood3158]

Y'know, I've never actually read the Draka books, despite being a fan of S.M. Stirling (*and* he counts as CanCon so his stuff pops up on a lot of "read this for school" lists). I'll have to check them out. I wonder how your thoughts shift when you consider that Stirling himself is an immigrant? He grew up in Canada but (I believe) lives in the States now. I feel that might be giving him a semi-outside perspective here.

[@404_nowheresnotfound3]

Though this book series provides interesting political commentary the story attacked to it diminishes it for me since it's so absurd. The Draka feel like that one kid on the play grounds OC who was just immune to everything and which nothing can go bad for. Really gives off the vibe of a person trying to say Batman can beat Goku which I don't really want in my serious political commentary.

[@feralhistorian]

I think part of the problem is that the Draka books (with the exception of Drakon) are essentially dystopian fiction, but they're presented as alternate history, so they get torn apart on that basis because they do constantly buff the Draka in order to feed the dystopia. We don't go after the worldbuilding of 1984 or Brave New World with anywhere near the same vigor because the backstory isn't the point in those book, but backstory is the entire point of alt-hist.

[@williamanderson4029]

I started this series years ago (I read a lot of Stirling's stuff), but got a bit freaked out by the idea of slave holding culture encompassing the world. I may have to give them another try.

[@feralhistorian]

I can be disturbing if you don't keep some detachment from it.

[@GabrielUngacta]

Can someone explain something to me? Is Drakan technology 80s tech and the other factions still have 40s tech? Or Drakan tech more like 50s tech?

[@feralhistorian]

In the first book, set in WWII, Draka tech is at a late 40s or maybe early 50s level. I've seen a lot of people compare the Draka Hond III tank to an Abrams, but really it's more like a heavier M48 or Centurion. It's advanced enough compared to everyone else to strain credulity, but not so much as to be absolutely fantastical.

[@xanfortunato]

Awesome video brah

[@johnmoore1290]

I don't know where you filmed this but it sure resembles the southern Black Hills of South Dakota where I live!

[@feralhistorian]

Then we're not far apart, most of these are shot in the Spearfish-Deadwood area.

[@walnzell9328]

It sounds like the America, in this timeline, had solutions to problems, but its politicians kept their cushy jobs based on problems never actually being solved. So just America now.

[@Churchmilitant67]

Very perceptive commentary, my compliments! 🫡

[@benx6264]

who is doing the artwork you show in the video? The Alliance uniforms, the Draka landowners, etc?

[@feralhistorian]

For most of it, I sketch it in Photoshop or Krita, then run it through a local install of Stable Diffusion to add detail. If it's something not too strange or specific (like the Draka landowners) I skip the sketch and make the AI do it. Which still requires some touch-up but saves a lot time. The image in the title card was more complex, using photo-bashing, a lot of digital painting, and I don't even know how many layers. It was started as a commission piece for a crossover fan-fic some guys at the alt-history forum have been working on, with the Draka fighting the Chimera from Resistance : Fall of Man. I bashed it back to a remake of the Marching Through Georgia cover for this.

[@brennans2286]

This bears no resemblance to Stalinism.

[@gawkthimm6030]

totalitarian control of a conscript population?

[@smedleybutler8280]

Have you ever read "The Fall of a Nation"? It was an invasion novel, not too different from the concept of the Draka series, but about European monarchies forming a global league after the Pope ends WW1 and then invading America in order to eliminate democracy and exploit America economically. It was written in 1916 by Thomas Dixon, the man who wrote the book that was the basis of Birth of a Nation, so it'd be kinda controversial I think to make anything about it, but it's useful to read to understand what motivated a lot of Americans back then. Here's an interesting quote: “The American Republic is but a little over a hundred years old. We reckon in years, they reckon by centuries. The founding of this nation was one of the happiest accidents in the history of the world. But it was an accident. The kings were too busy fighting one another in the stirring years of the American Revolution to give their attention to you. Your fathers won on a lucky fluke. And thanks to the barriers of two vast oceans you grew and waxed strong with incredible rapidity. You were safe as long as these oceans protected you and no longer. The genius of man has abolished the ocean barrier. There is no more sea. The ocean is now the world’s highway and transport by water is swifter and safer than by land. The oceans no longer protect you. They are a constant menace to your existence-”

[@boobah5643]

What about France? One of the more powerful European nations, and a republic itself. Nevermind that by that point the United Kingdom was more democracy than kingdom. Heck, the only major Papist monarchy participating in that war was Italy; France wasn't a monarchy, and the rest of the monarchs weren't Catholic. One can only assume the divergence begins earlier than implied.

[@Mortablunt]

Ironically, that’s what the west has tried to do to Russia at least three times.

[@stolman2197]

So are the "Black Chamber" novels next.

[@feralhistorian]

I've been meaning to read those.

[@stolman2197]

They're not bad and gave me a different perspective on Teddy

[@nightmareeyes9419]

5:30 *cough* South Korea with 50 or so family’s holding 85 percent of state’s GDP

[@serbianhistorygames]

Wow - lucky me I found this channel. Love the Stalinism-Serfdom parallel.

[@garydavidson6917]

man, u should have a million subs

[@feralhistorian]

If that ever happens I'll hire an artist and let the AI assistant rest.

[@garydavidson6917]

@@feralhistorian - screw it, make it a billion, let ur AI assistant rest now - u r doing excellently well!!!

[@thomaslamb8635]

I see that even in this awful branch in the “what could have been” tree, Hugo Boss was still making uniforms.

[@wambutu7679]

Interesting analysis.

[@mcgee227]

They call it the American dream because you have to be a sleep to believe it

[@kylemcfarlan]

I appreciate the Jack O'Neill quote.

[@dfmrcv862]

Eugh... probably one of the worst book series written. Sterling liked to defend the series with "well it's fiction, so criticizing it for being unrealistic doesn't make sense" only for the fans to talk about how "realistic" it is... such a frustrating series.

[@drakashrakenburgproduction5369]

Not perfect but definitely not one of the worst books written. You haven’t had the misfortune to hear Onision’s fictional works and his defenses. Turner Dairies disgustin “Utopia” is really bad.

[@dfmrcv862]

@@drakashrakenburgproduction5369 Well, I mean... I said "book series"... unless that dude created more books... did he?

[@gilbertoescamilla2993]

I read this series back in high school and there is one thing that stuck with me, when one of the characters tells another: "The citizens ARE the state" referring to the amount of power every citizen in the domination wielded, especially when dealing with serfs. We think of democracies as having the best possible standard of living for citizens, but in a system where every citizen is a master in a slave/serf society you never have to worry about anything. Unless you piss off a higher-ranked citizen.

[@tiomoidofangle102]

"No one wants to lead the charge because the front rank dies." Write that in stone.

[@sahilhossian8212]

Lore of The Draka : An American Dystopia momentum 100

[@walnzell9328]

The one thing that autocrats cannot stop is their thuggish enforcers saying no. They can stop them, only if the people they tell to stop them agree to. If they don't, and the no's keep building up, there are very few willing to do what their dear leader says. Solely those who truly believe in what the regime espouses. And they would be a dozen piranhas, who are notoriously docile if not starved, in a pond filled with very very HUNGRY piranhas.

[@SgtValentine8448]

Please make a video on Doctor Strange Love. You brought the point where we are just letting the USSR and today China do evil things and we are wishy washy about destroying them. All the while we wither and die. General Buck Turgidson said we could have destroyed the USSR in a surprise attack and they couldn’t do anything. Yet we didn’t. Now we are the one on decline and our enemies hunger for power and status.

[@matthewriordon]

I really hope he makes that video

[@temmy9]

You are wishy washy because you can't destroy them now

[@Ricardo_Belmonte]

The hell are you talking about? The United States is the greatest threat to global peace and democracy through its countless imperial campaigns of domination throughout the third world. Imposing dictators and extracting resources at gunpoint. All while it encroaches upon sovereign nations through its NATO alliance. Makes sense you would have a profile picture with black face. Your view of history is highly idealistic and has no contextual grounding. Pure anti communist nonsense.

[@AmanoJack]

I haven't the faintest idea what a draka is. I'll be back. 😊

[@wolfgang8391]

This is wierd but I'd wonder what Feral would think of Godzilla, the OG or Minus One but honestly any of them.

[@thedumbdog1964]

Hard to follow. Missed whatever point of divergence from our history and the books’

[@KwangTheMongrel]

Never heard of this before but Kwang is interested.

[@alenahubbard1391]

Oh please. The Draka is one of the most unrealistic alt histories ever written and Stirling got extremely butt hurt when this was pointed out to him 😂😂😂

[@Albemarle7]

It is not about plausibility, Art is about drama.

[@kamaeq]

Decent breakdown, Stirling made similar comments.

[@ikengaspirit3063]

1:06 I won't say vastly outnumbered. We're talking opponents of either non-intensive Agriculturalists or straight up hunter gatherers. That coolonizers with by far superior population density and in the former case, natives that can't even form polities against them.

[@Giganfan2k1]

1:47 We still have chattle slavery... But we can only do that with prisoners legally.

[@goosefootjones7196]

Make Draka Great Again

[@brucecamp4448]

There is a story that's Deconstruction and Reconstruction of the Domination of the Drakas called Separated at Birth: America and Drakia which is a pretty good take on the Drakas, it's a pretty good story that fixes a lot of problems that The Drakas have, I highly recommend it because of how good it is and has a ending where Drakia collapses due a combination of mistreating it's allies and subject it calls Princely States.

[@feralhistorian]

Reading it now. So far it's well done.