The Echo Knight: Best Fighter Subclass?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Jeremy Crawford has said that the intention was for the 7th level echo avatar feature to not be able to do anything but scouting: www.sageadvice.eu/2020/03/27/question-about-the-echo-knight-can-you-switch-places-with-the-echo-if-you-are-using-the-echo-avatar-feature/ If you would like to become a Patron of this channel: www.patreon.com/Treantmonkstemple

[@jinxtheunluckypony]

1- Not specifying something like that is a major oversight, using the Avatar to teleport is literally the first thing a lot of people thought to do. 2- Do we know exactly how the ability works? Like can you not attack or teleport with an Echo once you take control of it or is that just something that happens when it gets a certain range away from you?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

@@jinxtheunluckypony 1: agreed. 2: no we don't. JC said there was text missing but was not specific in what the text was

[@QuiescentPilot]

This just leaves me even more with the impression that the book isn't WotC's best writing... the balancing is totally wack, and text is just "mysteriously missing" from the book? Hmmmmmm... Gotta say, I'm not really a fan of EGtW...

[@TristenRS]

SharkForce 1000ft Range scout? That is able to attack once more than any other fighter at this level, including the fighter controlling it? plus action surge? The EcK already has the ability to tank better then barbarians, strike harder then monks, scout better than rogues and control the battlefield better than paladins. The only fun I see JC ruining with that one fix is the player who is already doing everything anyways... What about the other players man.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

@@sharkforce8147 In JC's defense, he is very consistent that you should ignore errata/rules that you decide interfere with the fun of the table. I think if you allow the echo to do cool things that push the echo knight to hog the limelight, that might not be fun for a lot of the table though.

[@AvengerAtIlipa]

If the Echo Knight was a monk subclass, summoning it would probably cost something stupid like 4 Ki Points.

[@itwasidio1736]

At least Astral Self is there if you want a DEX based Stand User.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

Eldritch Knight: "Ah yes... A fine addition to my collection... The Echo Knight."

[@1970joedub]

lol

[@Staff7]

@@itwasidio1736 at least astral self is there if ya wanna burn ki points and be useless.

[@itwasidio1736]

@@Staff7 oh hush it’s good, tired of people making fun of monk just cause you can’t divine smite, it’s a melee damage class that’s focused on having a bunch of consecutive attacks instead of swinging once with a great axe and missing

[@hollowbones8208]

All other classes/subclasses: uses spells, melee weapons, and other normal combat methods Astral self monk and Echo Knight fighter: ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ

[@CyanKnight96]

F a c t u a l l y c o r r e c t

[@CalebHoss37804]

HollowBones ancestral guardian Barbarian too!! Love this multiclass.

[@Olav_Hansen]

@@CalebHoss37804 at least ancestral guardian is a team help, thus the party is happier with that sort of strong.

[@knightghaleon]

@@CalebHoss37804 Now I want to make this combo. It sounds like so much fun.

[@liamhogan4369]

I agree. Perhaps the echo knight could be more interesting if the echo doubled down on battlefield control and team support. Just like the God-Wizard. Maybe if his ability had limited uses, but gave every party member an echo? Or maybe if it's only unlimited when used on a party member? Klunky, but it would make the party not feel superfluous. And it would highly prioritize synergy. E On the bright side, this sub-class works right from 3rd level. All sub-classes should aspire to thiz.

[@SnarkyRogue]

I'd argue that the 14 + prof AC is actually really good. Especially considering that it DOESNT scale with fighter levels, so you're going to get that extra bonus over time even if you multiclass.

[@QuiescentPilot]

Ironically, at 13th level+, it'll have better AC than the Echo Knight himself.

[@Vlakod]

@@QuiescentPilot At 13+ You must have +1, maybe +2 armor. I know, builds don't count on magic items, but +1 armor isn't super rare eather.

[@Dragonspassage]

@@Vlakod Not must have 5e is balanced around no magic items.

[@ANDELE3025]

@@Dragonspassage No it wasn't, that may be the lie Crawford likes to spin but if you check the DMG monster CR HP and DPR tables and bonuses vs players with level appropriate magic items, it fits, if they dont have magic items it doesnt.

[@scottr7683]

@@Dragonspassage Not... really 5e assumes you atleast have a common magic weapon somewhere in the party.

[@jinxtheunluckypony]

An Echo Knight Rogue could be a lot of fun. The types of shenanigans you could get into with your teleport while avoiding guards would be insane. On top of that if you get spotted you can just turn yourself in, unless they kill you on the spot you’re fine since at this point all you need is line of sight and a single round to teleport out of your cell.

[@PosskoonFTW]

Jinx Jade cunning action might clash with manifest echo abilities, perhaps swashbuckler would be the best subclass for it?

[@des-trina]

Since you have to spend movement to teleport, if you are grappled or restrained, you can't teleport.

[@quentindevlay3359]

It also works fantastically with second story works, fenced gates bypass, etc.

[@cory849]

But Shadow Monk exists.

[@snarglblargn4986]

Im building Nerdarchy's blind master echo knight 5/wizard 4/rogue 11. But im actually going to dip 3 into Ranger because we're playing out of the abyss and my character was left for dead in the underdark with his eyes slashed out. Casting darkness on your blade and then teleporting to a space near the enemy is just busted enough to give huge bonuses to damage and crowd control

[@MostlyPonies1]

Jeremy Crawford: "The echo created by an Echo Knight doesn't have a speed, and the knight can move the echo in any direction, including into the air. The echo can hang out wherever you move it."

[@Reepicheep-1]

Knight hanging from a ledge, manifest to safer location & swap location.

[@thelitchfieldexperiment6269]

​@@Reepicheep-1 have the echo grapple you, and use it to fly.

[@Pyrous56]

@@thelitchfieldexperiment6269 holy shit…

[@po747oEXE]

​@The Litchfield Experiment from what I've seen the echo is an object and immune to all conditions so it cannot grapple or be grappled.

[@burgernthemomrailer]

⁠@@po747oEXENot quite. An Echo is able to grapple, as you can make attacks originate from it, and grappling is a type of attack. However, it cannot *maintain* the grapple, as YOU are not within reach of the grappled target.

[@getthegoons]

Idk about the best subclass but it's definitely one of the coolest flavor wise. I thought the idea was solid enough and it's decently well executed. It's also fairly easy to reflavor as Naruto style Shadow Clones or even JoJo style stands.

[@aldoushuxley5953]

which subclass is the best in your opinion?

[@getthegoons]

@@aldoushuxley5953 it depends on what you're looking for but overall I think Battlemaster is the best. But like I said, if you're looking Sharpshooter or GWM shenanigans you might like Samurai more, if you want to Gish Eldritch Knight, Champion is good if you're just dipping fighter from another class, Arcane Archer is good for a joke, PDK can support the whole team in a way most fighters can't without feats/maneuvers, Cavaliers can hold the line like no one else. Echo Knight for sure is good. Great even. But it's features kinda point towards a melee build, which is lame because fighting in melee while my echo Snipes from afar is one of the cooler images that class can conjure I think one of the greatest things about 5e is that fighters have so many distinct flavors, and even the 'worst' ones like PDK and Arcane Archer are perfectly viable, just not as good.

[@responsedude1]

im playing a echo knight based on morel's smoke abilty from hunter x hunter

[@QuiescentPilot]

@@getthegoons Why do you think that Battlemaster is better? I really like Battlemasters (possibly my favorite non-Wizard class/subclass is Battlemaster), but the mobility afforded to Echo Knight just seems absolutely busted...

[@getthegoons]

@@QuiescentPilot sheer versatility. Maneuvers let you do so many things well, like push, trip, Taunt, move other players around, and with UA-CFV they can sneak, ambush, grapple, shoot better, etc. Mobility is good and all but apparently you can't do anything beyond looking through it according Jeremy "I hate Fun" Crawford.

[@christianhaney8759]

I'm playing this in a homebrew campaign heavily based around alternate timelines and this subclass has immediately become one of my favorites.

[@jklappenbach]

How has your DM reacted to the echo mechanisms? What strategies have they used to counter?

[@stranger6822]

This archetype feels a lot like what the Beast Master should have been. I do like that the abilities it gets are as powerful as if not more powerful than individual spells acquired by full casters at the same level. Spell casters are able to choose those features (spells) that they get, so it makes sense that fixed features should be at least as powerful as an equivalently leveled spell. It's just a shame that it's taken this long for a fighter archetype to get powerful spell-like abilities like this.

[@thereaIitsybitsyspider]

This sounds like an unearthed arcana that would get tied to an ability score upon release, but instead, it was released without the unearthed arcana.

[@jamesorth8231]

For real, either INT because its part of Dunamancy or WIS since you are using versions of experiences of your past/present self.

[@lipeeefl]

Even if you stick to constitution is okay. Having no limit is pretty odd

[@hawkname1234]

Yeah, I would never allow this into my game without a use limit.

[@christophercrafte]

@@hawkname1234 I mean if it had a limit I think it would need a decent buff

[@bleddynwolf8463]

that or prof bonus

[@mr.e822]

I’m playing an Echo Knight with the Lucky feat and two levels of Divination Wizard. Heavy focus on time and foresight. Lots of fun

[@sirsimon6562]

They really should employ people just like you, to read before sending out new copies with the intended correction. Great video!

[@QuiescentPilot]

Honestly, you're absolutely right. The balance in EGtW is absolutely atrocious; it feels like no one even proofread it at all...

[@ruick78]

@@QuiescentPilot they probably didnt, they ran it through words any spelling errors. No good send it out.

[@HughRGlen]

@@QuiescentPilot Not surprising. EGtW is the epitome of a "splatbook"; terribly unbalanced, several options (like this one) being WAY OP relative to core material, and full of wordings that are broken AF if Read As Written. The only way this material works is in a campaign which liberally flogs "Rule Zero". (watch Critical Role, they "rule of cool" tons of things that would never fly at most tables.) Jeremy Crawford even had to Twitter rule on the Echo because "as written" it is not possible to ever attack or target the Echo.

[@QuiescentPilot]

@@HughRGlen I mean, when they have to put out multiple clarifications and rulings withing the first 2 weeks, you know it is, as you say, a "splatbook."

[@youtubecensorship842]

Why would Wizards do that when they could just wage war on their fans instead?

[@topherrobeson4446]

The haste spell cast on you is particularly rediculous. It allows you another attack action (limited to one attack) but unleash incarnation doesnt care. Level 5 example: Base: Attack/ attack/ unleash Action surge: attack/ attack/ unleash Hasted: attack/ unleash

[@superkami8618]

It actually does. You have to take the Attack Action to use Unleash. I could be wrong but I don't think Hasted Action attack doesn't trigger things that require you to take the Attack Action. But 2 Unleashes instead of 3 is still poggers.

[@topherrobeson4446]

@@superkami8618 the exact wording does specify it is an "attack action" rather than saying make a single weapon attack That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.

[@Gareth_Dyer]

@@topherrobeson4446 Throw in two-weapon fighting or polearm master for a reliable bonus action attack and that's 9 attacks; a level 20 Echo Knight with 20 Constitution and Haste cast on them could do 13 attacks in one round, 12 attacks the next round, and then after using all uses of Action Surge and Unleash Incarnation could still do 6 attacks every round afterwards 😳 Get the Cleric to cast Holy Weapon on them as well and that's a crap tonne of damage!

[@gustaafargoan]

@@Gareth_Dyer Nope. It triggers on the attack action, not per attack. That is a maximum of twice, if you Action Surge.

[@Gareth_Dyer]

​@@gustaafargoanand the Haste spell grants you an additional Attack action - whilst limited to just one attack for the action, it still allows another use of Unleash Incarnation.

[@oliverneville5012]

I think wisdom is more import for echo knights than dex because the echo will likely do a lot of scouting, so perception would come up even more than usual and be more important.

[@superbarukun]

Only problem is Echoes can't take actions. They can only move, and YOUR attacks can happen in their space. So they can't make perception checks. Can't hide or interact with items either.

[@des-trina]

@@superbarukun If you can see and hear through it, you can make perception checks from its square.

[@joellombard8206]

@@superbarukun yeah no one ever said that. If you can swing a sword or shoot an arrow through it I'm sure you can twist your hand and wrist through it to open a door or pick something up. Also it is a solid as it's stated that it occupies it's space.

[@derekhandson351]

@@joellombard8206 they mean the Avatar feature

[@jamesorth8231]

Martial classes need to be more in line with this kind of power level in order to keep up with spell casters. After levels 5 - 7ish its really hard to match the damage, utility, and encounter ending options that spell casters have.

[@SomeBody08150]

I mean yes but that's also, as is almost always the case l, dependent on how your group run the game and their encounters specifically, since if you do run 4 to 5 combat encounters per long rest the martial classes become a lot more appriciated again. As for out of combat utility, yeah there is little to be done there no matter what playstyle your group has.

[@rothgartheviking858]

Even early on. Spells like thunderwave are very strong.

[@samuelbroad11]

we're a group of hero's. Our martial brethren help us by repetitively damaging the foes and focusing their vengeance . We also have limited resources : spell slots. Theirs are HP's. It's a balance that requires both to run as smoothly as possible, assuming no crazy 5 wizard parties. Oh, the parties.

[@kristianperez4108]

Spell slots are a pretty limited resource, meanwhile the Fighter can Action Surge 24 times a day, nuking encounters left and right while they do so.

[@DrBodyshot]

@@kristianperez4108 What kinda games are you regularly playing where action surge is used more than 2 or 3 times a day?

[@LukeLavablade]

Around 19:50 you say that Shadow Martyr can take an attack for you or another creature, but the wording of the ability specifically says the attack must be "directed at another creature." Since the echo isn't a creature, "another" must be in reference to the Echo Knight themselves, so I don't think you can use this ability to take hits for yourself, only your allies. As such, it is not objectively better than the illusionist's feature, it in fact can't replicate what the illusionist's feature does.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I missed that, you are 100% right! Thank you.

[@SchnaKe]

Shadow Martyr is also less useful and different because it must be used *before* an attack roll is made, not when.

[@RhantheSlayer]

@@SchnaKe either way, it ensures your ally doesn’t take that potentially dangerous hit. If it misses anyway, even better because now you can actively defend that ally and fight the creature attacking them if it’s in melee range

[@SchnaKe]

@@RhantheSlayer Or you could lose a valuable position of your echo against a high-value target (which is why your echo was there in the first place). If the enemy rolls a nat 1, you would've wasted the ability because the attack would've missed your ally anyways. The point is, the ability is nowhere as flexible as Illusory Self and shouldn't be compared as such.

[@comfortablegrey]

Wow, a level 3 fighter with an unlimited use of teleportation. That's so crazy useful! I want to play this more than battle master.

[@des-trina]

It's more like infinite-ish misty step. Even with the level 7 ability, the echo has to move that 1000 feet at 5 feet per second, so 200 seconds, 3 minutes and 20 seconds, or 33/34 rounds. Just to emulate dimension door it takes 16/17 rounds. Long distance teleporting is great out of combat, where time is mostly hand waved, but irrelevant in combat, and you can dash faster than the echo could teleport you.

[@comfortablegrey]

@@des-trina I do think a two bonus action misty step is the best comparison, in particular because this is comparing a level 3 subclass feature to a 2nd level spell. Monks don't get abundant step anymore, ever, so the out of combat utility of even a limited range teleport where you don't really need to see the destination is way up there and you can never waste it. Getting through bars, around doors, onto the other side of windows, and of course the height advantages that Chris pointed out. I feel this makes an echo knight archer a potent choice, even ignoring extra attack options and focusing just on the teleport.

[@ANDELE3025]

​@@comfortablegrey Nice for early levels, but the 2nd part doesnt really gel, monks at 9th level can scale a 180 ft wall in 6s so the out of combat utility of the echo teleport is iffy, especially because RAW you are still blind and deaf while "using the echos senses" thus dont know where exactly youll pop up if you cant see the location.

[@comfortablegrey]

@@ANDELE3025 When I think of a teleport that can be used at will I imagine Dai Blackthorn from GURPS. Level 3 and suddenly the fighter is a master escape artist, no skill check required. A little creativity can stretch 30 feet a lot. www.scribd.com/document/337265988/Dai-Blackthorn

[@bakerhewitt2323]

@@ANDELE3025 your og body is blind and deaf, not the echo. You cast echo wherever you want within 15 ft, sit down, transfer consciousness and now you can see and hear from the echo, just not your own body. So you can't have two sets of sensory information coming in at once

[@julialuna1]

Hey! I just got into watching your videos a few days ago, and I just wanted to thank you for making such awesome content! Since my school has moved to online classes and the only time I see the outside world is through going on walks, your videos have been a constant thing I watch daily and when I walk around the neighborhood! Thanks so much for all the work you put into everything! Keep up the great work! :)

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Thank you!

[@m.h9235]

The echo knight is currently my favorite subclass in the whole game, at first i was sceptical but i mean... You literally have a tag team partner. .. AND ITS YOURSELF!!!

[@theshadowbadger]

High level play be damned, there’s a lot of really cool barbarian subclasses that never see play because bear totem exists, and you’re setup to scoop some really cool abilities for a 1 more level. Ancestral guardians would be choice

[@jinxtheunluckypony]

Bear totem would be a bad call in my opinion, the bear is all about durability which won’t matter to you when you aren’t ever getting hit. Instead I’d recommend the Ancestral Guardian to boost your allies’ durability.

[@theshadowbadger]

@@jinxtheunluckypony if you reread my comment you'd see i agree with you, lol.

[@jinxtheunluckypony]

Clyde Misread that lol.

[@shanebernier2483]

If I'm reading Ancestral Protectors correctly. it would also give disadvantage to attacks against your Echo, which is a neat bonus. That said, I think that Path of the Ancestral Guardian or the Path of the Zealot are probably the only choices worth the extra level. An extra rage per day and some extra damage/defense are nice, but probably not worth slowing down access to your feats, ASI's, more attacks, and other Echo Knight abilities.

[@LordCyler]

I think it would be fine if you knew you weren't going to 18+ but the EcK 18 feature seems like something you'd want over a limited use Rage feature that under the right circumstances might provide disadvantage on a single creatures attacks. Giving up a second echo which is usable in all modes of play, and adds another target on the board in combat, in addition to the increased flexibility it adds to the other features of the subclass... That's a big sink for something like Ancestral Protectors. Not to mention the slowed progression to your Extra Attacks and second Action Surge.

[@oliverneville5012]

Such a good subclass! Brilliant design mechanically and super interesting flavour-wise

[@GroovyLemming]

I think I'd go with a Dex Fighter, take a longbow for myself and have a rapier as a back up and for my echo. That way, I can send my echo in to attack, draw fire, use Sentinel, etc. and also be able to provide cover fire for my own echo with ranged attacks.

[@phelps6205]

You can't do that, the echo does not have its own weapons, it is not the echo who makes the attacks, it is you BUT from your echos space, so technically you would need to be wielding a rapier for the echo attack to be a rapier, but the DM could always rule otherwise....

[@chivalrousknight997]

@@phelps6205 you can always have a homebrew bow with a spear head attached to one of the tips of it so you can attack in melee as well

[@chaos_ban]

I've found a fun way to do this! I took the Hexblade dip and have a Dhampir character, so that I can Eldritch Blast from range (holding the Rod of the Pact Keeper) and my echo can bite.

[@BLynn]

Build start (@25:15) [race & build starting point] Class levels (@26:59) [fighter 1-5 & fighting-style] Multiclass (@28:11) [barbarian 1-2] Finish class levels in fighter (@29:32) [fighter 6-18]

[@Cragmortis]

Enemy: This must be the work of an enemy stand!

[@CufflinksAndChuckles]

I wish D&D Beyond sponsored you, bro! You're already making great advertisement for them!

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Me too. I like the product, I would be happy to have them as a sponsor!

[@Anodynum]

Brilliant video, Chris. I literally asked our DM to delay our new campaign just so I could see your opinions on the new Wildemount classes :) I truly appreciate your in-depth and thoughtful analyses.

[@SpikeRosered]

Because Echo Knight feels so magical what do you think is a good magic multiclass build if you wanted to lean into spellcasting?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Hexblade.

[@AlwaysGrowing0]

I made a multiclass with the Echo. I did 3 levels echo night, and 17 levels as a Bladesinger wizard. It worked really well and mitigated the Bladesinger squishiness.

[@DanielNelson]

@@AlwaysGrowing0 was this a level 20 one shot? take any feats?

[@AlwaysGrowing0]

Yes. I was min maxed. So I took Resilient (Constitution) for concentration checks and Elven Accuracy. My ending ability Scores with point buy were as follows. 8 Strength 20 Dexterity 16 Constitution 20 Intelligence 8 Wisdom 8 Charisma

[@DanielNelson]

@@AlwaysGrowing0 thank you. Would you change anything? If you played it from a lower level would that change anything?

[@ERBanmech]

I had a friend play this subclass in a recent lvl 20 oneshot. It was pretty great you could do a lot of damage if you solo focused on a target and I don't think he got hit at all besides from spell AOE's from what I remember, it's pretty strong and you could make it frightening if you combined it with perhaps some of the other classes in the game. In that game I played a hexblade blade pact warlock, devotion paladin, fighter, scourge aasimar (levels were 15, 4, and 1 in that order) I specialized in polearms with the tunnel fighter fighting style, polearm master feat, and great weapon master feat. In that oneshot I ended up testing balancing of the UA magic tattoos and they ended up being pretty balanced (except for the invoked eldritch claw tattoo because a 30ft attack radius with the appropriate feats is insane).

[@ts25679]

Just came down to see if everyone else was making the Naruto shadow-clone + substitution connection. However, I do now want to ask, is this how we "fix" fighters, by giving them a few magical abilities but without the restrictions? So you can bundle a collection of thematically appropriate abilities together e.g. Sub Zero can cast an ice-blast to immobilise his opponent, use it to create a grease-like effect/difficult terrain that increases his movement, use a reaction to create an ice-clone to take an attack for him and is immune to ice damage + resistant to fire, oh yeah and he can summon ice weapons. Should WotC just give up and make everyone magic as they did in 4E or do we really like the fact that some classes & subclasses are just better or worse?

[@GildedTongues]

Magical flavor isn't necessary for power. It's only a matter of tuning numbers in the end - echo knight still pales in comparison to any caster in utility.

[@unchartedexe]

Yeah I'd love this approach. Fighters suck in utility compared to even paladins. Nevermind wizards.

[@JohnSmith-zf3yk]

Even with all the utility, in 90% of cases(cookie-cutter combat), Battle Master is still far and away a better class than echo knight. The class has gimmicks, highlighted in this video in a complete vacuum. Can they be good? Absolutely. Will they? That really depends on the gap between your creativity and the DM's. The inclusion of magic where it doesn't fit will always highlight a lot of utility which is usually offset from primary role capability. As a CBE/SS fighter, I'd never take Echo Knight over Battlemaster or even Champion. I probably wouldn't take it as a GWM fighter, either(Samurai is so much better for the build). This subclass is almost exclusively designed to make PaM/Sentinel fighters exponentially more flexible, which means you're basically supporting the rest of the party, anyway. Echo Knights will very likely generate a cool, ass-saving highlight reel across an 80+ session campaign, but they're not broken by any means. Oddly enough, I'd compare the subclass to bards/control("God") wizards/the odd cleric divine intervention: When shit goes fanword and everything's on the line, the PC can pull some nonsense to potentially save the campaign if they're smart, creative and desperate enough while still having resources at their disposal. Honestly, the video doesn't even cover the most broken aspect of the echo: There's no limitations on what it can carry nor what it can interact with. Magic user captured? Fly up 400 feet to the 7th floor of the rape tower dungeon and drop an arcane focus through the window grates. Bunch of gnolls hunkered down in a cave? Walk your echo in, strapped to the teeth with pouches of gunpowder+a flint and you too can get your 72 virgins. Need to sweep for traps? It technically occupies a space and therefore can interact with the environment(trigger traps) and clear the way. I also disagree with Treant's assessment. I think V-H is only good for a low-to-mid-tier campaigns(and even then can be a matter of debate). Fighters get a TON of ASIs/Feats, especially in the later levels(12/14/16) where you've already picked up the most important bits to your build. Depending on campaign and rules, there are much better races for this class. Either half-elf if your campaign uses flanking rules(Your echo could technically be considered an "ally" for giving your PC-Prime advantage) or kobold since pack tactics only requires an "ally" be within 5 feet of your target. Echo Fighter is a highly mobile, master of none subclass that /can/ be broken depending on DM rulings. It's basically a fighter dipping monk or rogue/starting high-elf(Fey Teleportation) with earlier ASIs/not picking a shitty race for the class. If you want maximum, reality-bending utility: just play any wizard/sorcerer. If you want to punch things in the face(without getting bored because fuck champion): play a battle master fighter. If you want to do both, just play a bard. Anyone that doesn't play a bard isn't optimizing hard enough. They're literally /that/ good at nearly everything. If your goal for playing 5E is to treat the game as a single player game by replacing romance options with occasionally sitting back to let his NPCompanions bicker, Bard is the class for you.

[@ArtGuyCharlie]

Shadow Clones? Nah bruh, Stando Powah.

[@supremecaffeine2633]

@@ArtGuyCharlie Monk: Astral Self

[@ghostbuster0209]

Great video and really helpful. My girlfriend plays a fighter and at 3rd level didn’t know what subclass to chose, eventually deciding on Echo Knight. We played last Saturday and it was the first time she really used the ability and it really adds a lot of creativity and fun to combat.

[@BR4IN1N4J4R]

I'd personally say Mountain Dwarf Ancestors Barbarian 3/Echo Knight Fighter 17 is a cool build from a flavor stance, because "My grandpa had come to say a few choice words." Also, Ranged build could be hilarious with this, using your Echo to draw enemies out before they get a nasty surprise 😂

[@krunchyfrogg]

This was my first thought: make a dex based fighter. Switch places, as detailed above, but snipe with a longbow at range.

[@MrBracey100]

Shoot I was just thinking of how this breaks dungeons by just sending your echo out to open chests and doors and such. It sets off all the booby traps, takes all the first round ambush damage, etc.

[@davidpeters6743]

@@MrBracey100 Your Echo can't do any of that though. It can't open chests, and I don't think it has a weight for traps. It can maybe take first round damage, but if the enemies know about you and can recognize the Echo they'll just wait.

[@BR4IN1N4J4R]

I want to play this with a Hobgoblin. The flavor I'm going for is his Echos are his memories of his now dead teammates from his Mercenary company, so he will always fight alongside those he cared about

[@avidarois5505]

I play a scourge aasimar echo knight... it's extremely fun, especially when you coordinate things with your teammates to do cool stunts and all. This subclass thrives off strategizing and teamwork, I can't stop stressing that.

[@Pfeifenkraut]

Damn. And I thought the Rune Knight was not bad... Then again the monsters you encounter at level 18 are strong as hell.

[@MixedReactor]

I chose Echo on a whim and after watching this video I can't wait to see the look on my DM's face. He was already talking about how overpowered our group was. I just hit level 3 and have effectively tripled my power. This class is INSANE.

[@becomeanastronaut6232]

Great analysis. I note that in your "rooftop" scenario, the enemy could just kill your Echo and move into melee range with you. Then on your next turn, you can't both bring out the Echo AND teleport to safety. Possibly a good use of Polearm Master to keep it at bay? Then on your next turn you can drop your Echo, leave without having to disengage, attack through your Echo, and start it all over again. Separate question: what magic items would you love love love for an Echo Knight? I want to know what to put on my wishlist...

[@LockSteady]

I'm DM'ing a high level game with a player that rerolled as an Echo Knight, and he's already managed to annoy the $&#% out of me with echo knight shadows. Dude was taking ten minutes on his turn to figure out his moves and actions. I've since set up a 90 battle second timer, and now I'm not nearly as pissed off as I started out. Honestly it's a cool class.

[@yooooo8600]

I can’t imagine that guy playing a spellcaster if it takes him that long for a martial class

[@Anthony-wt3zv]

his only action is attack whats takin so long lmao

[@migueldelmazo5244]

There has to be a way to make a Tabaxi that kites enemies by using the echo to fire from while always staying out of threat range. Alternatively, being able to stay well hidden while attacking as an echo opens up a lot of options. Seeing through an invisible quasit familiar while hidden under complete cover and attacking as an echo is one. While sentinel is very, very nice, I think it will be the ranged builds that show the Echo Knight's power.

[@jarbuthn]

yes, an echo knight kobold using pack tactics and sharpshooter seems like a no brainer here. combining with gloom stalker and/or assassin for some ridiculousness. sounds like fun!

[@cdukette465]

i was allowed to use the echo knight in a west marches server, and i have been in love with the echo knight ever since. the rp value of having an echo work with you is amazing

[@rothgartheviking858]

i am going to subclass my barbarian into this for 3 levels. i did not realize the echo could fly, thats nuts. The potential damage is insane. Especially if your hasted.

[@noahmartin2029]

Yea when I looked at the book I didn't notice it said 30 feet in ANY direction so it can fly.

[@jesusriced]

I had actually made a variant human echo knight fighter with sentinel before seeing this about 8 months ago also my first ever class and time playing. I thought i was using it pretty well but i did not know/think of half the stuff you mentioned i could do. My DM is gonna have a heart attack now. Thank you for all this!!!

[@OmegaManXD]

So here me out (and I could be wrong): If you were to choose to go all the way up to Level 20, and let's also assume that you would hit every attack in this scenario. You could have your 4 attacks from Level 20+ Unleash Incarnation+ Action Surge 4 attacks+ Unleash Incarnation+ Action Surge again 4 attacks+ Unleash Incarnation+ (assuming you have a method to bonus attack attack and that your Echo is already out) a Bonus Action attack from 3 locations (assuming your have 2 echos out from the Level 18 ability) totaling a potential of 16 attacks/attack chances in a single turn. This number can go even higher with the help from teammates as well if you say had a Hasted Action, which would also give you another Unleash Incarnation if your Con. modifier is high enough.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

Wow... That sounds like a solo player Class. I'll multiclass Echo Knight with Eldritch Knight.

[@RyeAkai]

Been playing a level 3 echo knight and having a lot of fun with it. Still not sure how the character will progress, but a couple things I've been thinking: For starters my echo knight is a sentinel variant human (16str, 8 dex, 16 con, 10 int, 14 wis, 8 cha) right now who uses a greatsword and has a lance out there just in case. So yeah, pretty much like the video talks, because yes, I can definitely say Sentinel is absolutely fantastic with the echo knight. If the enemy tries to ignore you, you attack him and force him to stay, not allowing him to attack you or your party members. If he attacks the echo knight, great even if it hits, since it's always great to waste an enemy attack. Sentinel gives you just so much it should be indeed considered pretty much a must for this guy. I still haven't gotten to the GWM point (which would be next level), but I've been thinking about that level up. Does GWM gives me enough at level 4? I mean, the +10 to damage is pretty big at this point, but so is the -5 to hit. If I'm taking GWM, it means my strength is still +3, and since I don't have reckless yet, actually hitting with this property sounds kinda unlikely, and I'm not a champion, so the critical hit thing doesn't give me that much either. Wouldn't it be better to actually use that ASI for STR or CON (probably CON because of the incarnation), and then use your level 8 ASI (after the 2 barbarian levels) for GWM? Short question: What actually gives me more at level 4: GWM, CON ASI or STR ASI. Other thing: Have you thought about doing pretty much the same thing, except multiclassing into War Cleric instead of Barbarian? No reckless goodness which I think it's the best thing to get. But first cleric level will give you 3 cantrips (there's some nice options in the cleric list), 2 level 1 spell slots with access to the whole cleric spell list (divine favor and shield of faith automatically prepared) and of course, you get War Priest which allows you to attack using your bonus action (WIS modifier times per day). If you didn't have to waste your bonus action in your turn, that could mean at level 6 attack - > extra attack - > unleash incarnation attack - > war priest attack - > action surge - > attack - > extra attack - > unleash incarnation attack. You get a nice pool of 3-4 unleash incarnations per day, 1 action surge per short rest and 2 war priest attack per day (assuming 14 wisdom). With a second war cleric level you get guided strike as a channel divinity which means +10 to one hit per short rest plus of course an extra spell slot and the choice of using turn undead instead of guided strike. You might even get tempted to level 3 since that means level 2 spells. But then again, Reckless is fantastic. The advantage with the cleric is that you don't have that "wasted" level you're forced to take as a barbarian (since rage and unarmored defense gives you nothing, or an extremely situational use... like in case if you're ambush while you're unarmored). I've been pondering all these stuff going forward with the character.

[@lucasramey6427]

Btw you should keep in mind that it would take you roughly 34 of your turns to reach 1000ft for you to teleport at that range which while being only 3 minutes and 24 seconds is still a decent amount of time turn wise while a character with dimension door only needs 6 seconds can teleport a second person 500 ft with just needing to either be able to see the place they're going or remember what it looks like

[@isultansultangaliev5852]

You know I kinda don't care that it's better than other fighter subclasses. I agree with the opinion that this is the power level that Fighter subclasses should be aiming for. Its strong and very fun.

[@sesimie]

This is why i loved Shadow Clones in Naruto...The Utility and Versatility! This is an amazing Subclass!

[@bloodyirishman9155]

I'd really love an update on this with considerations of all the new content released in the last year. Maybe even with a consideration of a Hexblade multiclass discussion using the Fey Touched/Shadow Touched Feats to build a Fighter with some extra flavor and the Echo features.

[@AbcdcDym]

I know I am a year late, but @12:00 I think u cannot summon it (bonus action) and teleport/swap (bonus action) in the same turn. Unless u walk with ur clone through the city 24/7

[@shanebernier2483]

I'm not sure this is quite as strong as it sounds. The utility of it is absolutely through the roof, no doubt, but the combat application of it seems like it might not survive contact with an actual fight. Echo's are an infinite resource, yes, but probably the best combat trick you showed off with this (using your Echo as a Sentinel so enemies can't reach you) is easy to work around even just coincidentally. The obvious one is that you still only get one reaction a round, so combats with multiple enemies can't be kept safely away most of the time. Even a single creature with Multi-attack can at least hit the echo with a single attack to kill it, then move in for the rest of the attacks on you or another party member. Enemies with AoE's can probably kill the Echo for free as part of hitting other players, and because the echo isn't a creature it doesn't cause disadvantage on ranged attack rolls like having an actual fighter up front would do. All the abilities are still really good. Heck, it could still be the best Fighter subclass, I'm just saying that I think it looks better on paper than in practice.

[@LeadBeIIy]

Yea. I was going to say sending a single enemy with 1 attack per round at a fighter is always going to be a cakewalk. Lots of classes could kite that monster in other ways. It may not be as broken as it seems on paper, but it's still top-tier. I don't think it should be allowed to fly and I'd put a generous resource cost (maybe even you lose 1 HP when you create it).

[@karlhageman876]

I agree. I don’t think you can ignore your AC or feel that reckless attack has no consequence. The echo can only stop one enemy per turn from approaching you using the sentinel feat. The other enemies will still be able to approach and attack as normal.

[@binolombardi]

Shane Bernier 1. Any creature directing an attack at the echo is a win. If the attack hits, any extra damage over 1 hitpoint is not directed at an actual party member. Importantly, creatures also have a chance to miss, so choosing to attack the echo isn’t a guarantee to get rid of it. 2. The echo not being able to impose disadvantage on ranged attack rolls from creatures near it because it isn’t a creature makes it an invalid target for the majority of AOE spells you say it can be taken out by. It’s not in the book, but Crawford has identified the echo to be a “magical object”. 3. For the same reasons my number 2 point makes sense, the echo cant be targeted by attacks of opportunity from other creatures. OP attacks req sight, reach, and for the target to be a creature.

[@christopherjones7191]

Better the enemy spend an attack on your echo than your party member. Any way it plays is beneficial, either you deal some extra damage, or you mitigate some damage, all for your bonus action.

[@astara21]

The echo knight is 5e's version of Zed from League of Legends.

[@jacobnavarro3675]

If your Echo Knight has access to the Booming Blade cantrip and you're considering taking Sentinel, I recommend taking War Caster instead and using BB as your go-to opportunity attack when using the 3rd benefit of Manifest Echo. It sort of accomplishes the same thing but makes it more interesting by allowing the target to move if it wants at the cost of taking some damage. Plus the additional benefits from War Caster might help you out more than Sentinel's other 2 benefits (since you can't use the latter through the Echo).

[@JohnSmith-zf3yk]

Even with the sage advice from Jeremy "I make up(usually very stupid, anti-player house rules) shit on the fly" Crawford, this subclass is going to create a lot of headaches for new DMs across the globe. I'd advice anyone looking at this subclass to literally babysit your DM through all the fuckery you can do with your echo. Nothing generates a more toxic environment to the game than bad communication and actively one-upping he-who-controls-all because he doesn't understand the limitations and capacity of your character. Do yourselves a favor: If you pick echo knight and the DM greenlights it, expect to spend an hour or two laying out your gimmicks to the DM. If for nothing else than to avoid the "Dragon breath kills you, dragon flaps its wings and your worthless ass is scattered to the winds. No passing go, no resurrection - I don't want to deal with this character anymore" shenanigans.

[@77Zenin77]

I am playing my first ever dnd Campaign and just 2 days ago i got to level 3 . I can't wait to see how much is echo effective in fight and roleplay. This is going to be good

[@ddfordummies5099]

The biggest hang up on your utility and battle tactics for the echo that messes up your plan is that it takes a bonus action to create an echo and a bonus action to swap with it. Your narrative at 13:30 is incorrect because it would take 2 turns to do that maneuver where you create an echo and swap. Unless the echo is alive at the start of your turn, swapping takes 2 turns not a single turn.

[@braviary7212]

Wouldn't summoning take your bonus action meaning you would have to wait a turn before you can use a bonus action again to swap places with it?

[@SamiJ1508]

Yes

[@phillipheaton9832]

I hadn't realized that the Echo could fly. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

[@dersies6347]

I understand RAW (On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required).) This rule is the same as when using sidekicks and companions almost. They can only move in the manner which it has speed. Because it is a copy of you it would only have a walking/running speed. If you had a fly speed and only if you had fly could it hover or fly. From beast master - The beast obeys your commands as best as it can. It takes its turn on your initiative. On your turn, you can verbally command the beast where to move (no action required by you).

[@des-trina]

I've got an echo knight multiclassed with gloom stalker ranger, and it's great. At 5 echo knight 3 gloom stalker I can take 8 attacks in the first round of combat using action surge, dread ambusher, and unleash incarnation. The gloom stalker dip also gives me hunters mark, absorb elements, and a bit of aoe in hail of thorns. I was also able to pick up defense and great weapon master styles. It's a very MAD build, but it synergizes well.

[@thunderdragonish]

It should be worth noting that if you MC into barbarian, that you cannot rage while wearing heavy armor, which means you’re either sacrificing 2 AC if you use medium armor and still dump Dex (not a huge deal if you fight primarily trough your echoes), or you basically waste your first level into barbarian.

[@this_epic_name]

13:00 in this scenario, 1) I would definitely rule that the real echo knight must be able to see the enemy their echo is attacking (since a later ability explicitly grants you the ability to sense through the echo), 2) the enemy can destroy the echo **and then move** toward you, most likely getting up to your face. If you have to manifest another echo, that takes a bonus action, and teleporting also takes a bonus action, so you can't do them both in one turn. Therefore, if the enemy gets in your face, you either have to run (provoking an AoO), or stay put and get attacked by the enemy on its next turn. The echo also doesn't look like the knight - it's translucent and gray, so any monster with 1) a reasonable level of intelligence, and 2) knowledge of the game world in which these sorts of knights exist, won't waste time attacking the echo. This is a broken rule: "You can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 ft. in any direction (no action required)" So, as written, you can move the echo up to infinity feet, because there's no action required. They probably mean "You can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 ft. in any direction once on your turn (no action required)"

[@NobodyDungeons]

I personally can't wait to play a completely blind echo fighter who hears whispers from other dimensions

[@etherealhawk]

I'm playing a blind kobold who thinks his imaginary friend is real lol

[@couchwarriortv]

Can the echo be used to obtain flanking advantage on attacks?

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

Nope... As the Echo is an Object, RAI. RAW... The Echo is "nothing".

[@dustinwhite3800]

Also the sentinel plus the crusher feat on this build is great! Crusher affect happens once per turn so you can push a creature 5 feet with an opportunity Attack while also reducing their movement to 0 so if they don’t have ranged or reach attacks then they are pretty much useless till their next turn

[@ANDELE3025]

The TLDR of the video: Echo knight means you can apply sentinel to whats effectively low range ranged weapons/gives melee weapons the range of 30/60 in one direction instead of not caring for enemy placement as long as its in range but requiring thrown property (or dropping weapon dice to 1d4~1d6) and picking it up. Also 15:48 - Remember tho for reach weapons, they dont increase the Echos AoO range, 17:14 - RAW Avatar is actually the opposite of powerful, as it doesnt define that only the senses of your body are blinded and deafened (unlike sight through familiars or similar features) and 28:14 - remember, echo lets you attack from its place but all other rules for attacks still apply, so in most of the prior example cases where the real character doesnt have sight on the target, recklesss would be there to negate disadvantage instead of grant advantage.

[@daniell1483]

I immediately thought of Dishonored on seeing the subclass's description. Teleports, a pseudo flying ability, shadow clones to keep attention off of yourself, etc. This is Corvo in D&D! Which is pretty neat.

[@buffwarriors]

What if you have 20 con and you are level 20 echo knight? Is it correct that with action surge, in a single turn, you have 8 attacks + 1 bonus attack+ 5 attacks from your echo= 14 attacks ?

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

Lv20 Echo Knight (Before your turn) Opportunity Attack. (At the start of your turn and refreshed Reaction Action.) Attack Action + 3x Extra Attack + Unleash Incarnate 1x + Action Surge + Attack Action + 3x Extra Attack + Unleash Incarnate 1x + Bonus Action Attack. (Reaction) Opportunity Attack. Repeat... 11x (with Bonus Action) attacks per turn with 2x Opportunity Attacks. One OA before and another OA after the start of your turn. Repeat this up to your Con Mod+. Just be carful when using Ranged Weapons like Bows and Crossbows, and with Spells. "Throw" weapons don't follow the same limitations of Ranged Weapons and if your Echo throws a Trident. Then, treat that thrown Trident as a "echo weapon" because it is not your actual weapon being thrown. The same is said for Bolts and Arrows (ammunition). For Magical Weapons... The condition of "this effect comes from you" cannot be used by the Echo. Outside of this, you can use Magic Weapons through the Echo in the same way as you would use any other weapon. However, if your Magic Item has Charges/Uses, then unlike ammunition and thrown weapons. If it is a Spell or a Charge/Use that requires Cast Time, then your Echo cannot be accessed for this type of attack. However, if the magical effect is passive/innate, like a Fire Sword, then that magical effect applies. If the magic effect launches a projectile per attack from the weapon, then, if there is no Cast Time, the Echo can be accessed for this type of attack. Remember that the Echo is always in the form you're currently in and is using the weapons (or unarmed combat) that you're currently holding in both hands.

[@shmuckling]

Oh, wow! This subclass looks amazing!

[@lucasramey6427]

Pro flavor move have a third lv for barbarian for ancestral guardians (how I'd flavor it would be that you have full control over your shadow and can split it into multiple pieces 1 for offense and the rest for defense) now you have resistance to bludgeoning slashing and piercing against all attacks while your allies have resistance against all damage from the enemy being dragged down by your shadow (also if you go with the controllable shadow flavor it moving around as flattening to the ground and zipping to where it's told to go like how shadows move) also btw the main reason why I say you should just take the 3rd lv in barbarian is because usually unless you're doing a lv 20 one shot you probably won't get to lv 20 so it's better to plan for not doing that than to not get to there and be disappointed

[@gamecubed9518]

Disengage action? Movement after attacks? Teleporting costs another bonus action that you don’t have after creating a new echo?

[@Serkesh77]

According to what you said the echo can move freely, even upwards. How would this work with a Simic Hybrid's Manta Glide? Can I move the echo 45ft up, switch places with it and add 90ft of flight to my character, besides the movement that he already used this turn? "Manta Glide (1st level). You have ray-like fins that you use as wings to slow your fall or allow you to glide. When you fall and are not incapacitated, you can subtract up to 100 feet from your fall when calculating your fall damage and can move horizontally 2 feet for every 1 foot you fall." Sorry for my bad English, I really like your videos. :)

[@nekospaw]

echo can't be more than 30ft from you in all directions, so you could summon it 15 ft away, more it another 15ft straight up to take it to max 30ft range, switch and glide

[@OronisTheWanderer]

@@nekospaw The echo knight says only that it is destroyed if it's more than 30 feet from you at the END OF YOUR TURN. Not any time it's more than 30 feet away. If it's currently within 30 feet when your turn starts, you can move it another 30 feet during your turn, to upwards of 60 feet away, then switch places with it before the turn ends, then it is destroyed when your turn ends.

[@wesleyjudson599]

I do have a question that I feel like was overlooked in some of the teleportation, flying, and upward mobility uses of the echo; I pretty sure its effected by gravity. 1) why? Its immune to conditions, but it "occupies its space," has health, and a saving throw. 2) why does it matter? the rules given for the effects of gravity aren't spelled out in the PHB, but the standard rule for 5e is "drop 500ft immediately if you don't have a fly speed or succeeded an athletics check, then an additional 500ft at the end of each of its turns." 3) With this assumption ,that means you could create an echo in the air, it would just immediately fall. And if you created it on the ground then had it jump, there is little difference to you jumping with a held misty step cast.

[@wesleyjudson599]

there is a post by crawford, but he doesn't specifically clarify about whether the echo actually falls or not. He just says "The echo can hang out wherever you move it." It does imply that it literally 'hangs' in the air, but there's too many reasons why it shouldn't be able to, and to "hang out" could mean a lot of different things.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

@@wesleyjudson599 He does not say that it doesn't fall, that's true, but if something can move in any direction (including up), that implies it can fly. If it can't, then that should probably be spelled out.

[@wesleyjudson599]

@@TreantmonksTemple Thanks for the response. ;D I can't be certain of course, and the GM would have the final call as usual, but it is worth noting there are abilities like the the eagle totem barbarian that can only fly until the end of the round. It spells it out in that ability too, as you mention. that said, it does feel like many of these abilities are not very clearly worded, and so if a player comes into a game assuming things to be true about the class, and the GM rules against it, its gonna feel rough. As such, I tend to assume it doesn't work unless its clearly stated that it does. And being immune to gravity or being able to hover seems like something that they should've clarified as well. TL;DR This class is light on rules, which means you have to depend on GM ruling. Trust your GM, but also don't assume to much.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

@@wesleyjudson599 I will agree about wording - I've noticed this in a few new releases. The Artificer for example is ripe with abilities that are not very clear in wording. I agree that in the end, your DM is the arbiter of all these matters.

[@viktar3341]

What about 3 lv of Barbarian and become an Ancestral Guardian? Would his ability trigger with the echo?

[@tyleremery7088]

Yes. The wording says "any attack roll that _isn’t against you_ ," rather than specifying "any attack roll against a _creature_ other than you" or something to that effect which would disqualify the echo because it's not a creature.

[@thunderdragonish]

Depending on how technical you want to get, the echoes are you, just echoes of you pulled from alternate realities.

[@jonathanshi9367]

David Wright Jeremy Crawford clarified that the echo is not considered you

[@MrEuklides]

Isn't it a bit disingenuous to include vertical axis into the echos movement but not when calculating distance? Is this suported in any way? This is 2 years by now but a few googles didn't net any results.

[@stang1970]

It wouldn't fly at our table. Vertical movement is counted. Otherwise my monk could run over any size wall or building and still have movement to spare

[@Flarhoon]

Two things to point out: The Echo doesn't have reach; and the Illusionist Wizard's illusory self is pretty much always used to negate crits but the comparable Echo Knight ability doesn't do that. Love your analysis, thanks for your tremendous insights!

[@aleksanderbergerseter6545]

Would Tunnel Fighter Work? As a bonus action, you can enter a defensive stance that lasts until the start of your next turn. While in your defensive stance, you can make opportunity attacks without using your reaction, and you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against a creature that moves more than 5 feet while within your reach.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I don't *think* so. Since the echo knight feature specifically says you use your reaction.

[@aleksanderbergerseter6545]

@@TreantmonksTemple ok, i have a friend who is going lv 20 Echo Knight and they asked me if the was a good idea.... i thought not hmm since they are going lv 20 Echo Knight are the any tips or Tricks u could teach me so the i can teach them?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

@@aleksanderbergerseter6545 I think it's just fine to go 20 echo knight (as I mention in the vid, I like 2 barbarian, but I think a straight echo knight is still good). Show them this video, these are the best tricks/tactics IMO for the echo knight.

[@aleksanderbergerseter6545]

@@TreantmonksTemple oh lol

[@aleksanderbergerseter6545]

ok 4 Questions: 1 can the Echo go down underwater and will it drown? 2 can the echo and my own character flank a enemy to get adv? 3 can my Echo use skills like athletics, 4 can my Echo grab or lift stuff like a sheild, a cup or grab a child and take it to safely

[@koimeone3707]

Um... the fact that you can move the echo in any direction does not mean that it will "stay" in that place (it can still fall if it is in mid-air), but that is of course for the DM to decide ^^

[@TreantmonksTemple]

This is so interesting to me, as you are one of MANY people to suggest that an echo cannot hover in place. I'm guessing it's because this effect appears as a humanoid. When I talk about Bigby's Hand flying around, nobody ever tells me that it should fall.

[@koimeone3707]

@@TreantmonksTemple Again in my opinion the final decision is on the DM's side. The most important thing is to have fun playing :)

[@TreantmonksTemple]

@@koimeone3707 Absolutely, and when you are a DM that is something to consider, and not just what's fun for the Echo Knight player, but if it will have an impact on everyone else's fun. Echo Knight is one of those subclasses that could potentially steal the limelight, and that's not something you want at your table.

[@MsNathanv]

Echo makes for a fantastic net-launcher by increasing range, eliminating disad, at least at lower levels. Echo knight can safely eliminate *any* attack roll disadvantage just by stepping behind a wall: unseen attacker + unseen defender, even vs blindsight. While an echo probably can't hide, it's not entirely clear that it *needs* to: does it make any noise, heat, anything that could be detected besides vision (at which point hiding breaks anyways)? Does an object need to hide if you can't see it?

[@shadoden1687]

The 1,000 teleport is not as advantageous as most people think. You are only able to move it 30ft a round no action required, so there is no way to double its movement. So move that thousand feet you need 34 rounds to do so that is almost three and half minutes for 1000ft teleport. It would be useful for get over chasms or up cliffs. But there would be better options to do so. And smart creature encounters will begin to hold their attack action till the Echo is in combat range to make it disappear, then on it's turn do it normal round of attacks while the Echo Knight is hung out to dry, as much as a well armored, high hit point character can be left out to dry. But it will eat up the Creatures action economy very quickly. I like the shenanigans' of the short distance teleport though for utility.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Even with the time required, that 1000ft teleport is still really good, but it's apparently a mistake that will be fixed in the next printing.

[@markcronan]

I am looking to optimize a Rogue / Echo Knight. First I am wondering how to use my echo for sneak attacks. Let's say I am playing a Lightfoot Halfling Rogue, and our Rogue hides behind his medium-sized fighter buddy successfully. The Rogue (the attacker in this scenario) is now hidden (unseen). His Echo is next to a foe out in the open. Can the Rogue attack through his Echo at advantage, thus gaining sneak attack against the foe because the rogue is hidden from the foe? Now let's say our Rogue becomes an Arcane Trickster and gets the Find Familiar spell. Can the rogue have a Spider Familiar (tiny size) crawl under a door or through a gap in a second-story window (but still in 15' range), and then "see" through the familiar's eyes to summon an Echo on the other side of the door/window, then swap places with the Echo as a means of teleporting behind barriers? Can the rogue send their spider familiar underneath a door (but still in 15') summon the Echo through the eyes of the familiar, and then attack a foe that is next to the spider familiar (an ally) with sneak attack from the Echo's space, all while their real body is on the other side of the door? Could a Rogue Inquisitive use their Insightful Fighting ability to gain sneak attack from their Echo (which let's you "use your Sneak Attack against that target even if you don’t have advantage on the attack roll")? Could a Rogue Swashbuckler use Rakish Audacity to do the same thing through their Echo (which lets you sneak attack without advantage if "you are within 5 feet of it, no other creatures are within 5 feet of you, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll") or does that not work because the "you" are not in the Echo's space? What synergies and interesting tactics might be available for a Rogue/ Echo Knight and how might you build one? What levels would you take in each?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

I believe the answer to all these questions with the exception of the Rogue Swashbuckler is yes. I haven't played with a rogue/echo knight build - but I would think 3 echo knight/X rogue would give you all kinds of options (many of which you already mention)

[@rafaelplugge3214]

Based on the RAW, this allows a fighter's already very good nova (burst damage in one turn) to be even more improved because the *Unleash Incarnation* states that you can attack one extra time when you take the *Attack* action that means that you can get two extra attacks if you Action Surge (since you are taking two *Attack* actions). That is a lot of extra damage on top of the already very high damage that an Action Surge Fighter brings.

[@einsibongo]

I've watch this video many many times. I love this subclass, video and the ideas that spring to mind. We're basically Nightcrawler. If this is infinite, can't we use this to travel a lot faster? How would we calculate distance long treks. Between towns for instance?

[@SuperEagle112]

I absolutely love this class. I just 3-d printed a goblin slayer model to use as my on table avatar. Going to print another to paint black to represent my shadow. (Shout out to Hank Hogfish) Can I have the echo make ranged attacks with whatever I have on hand? If I manifest while having a longbow on my back could I fire away with my echo as I run for cover?

[@DeNorali]

Thinking of an Assassin/Echo Knight character. The Echo Knight abilities seem to go really hand in hand with rapidly closing in on a target from distance, and slice.

[@SplinterInYourEye]

Reading how the language is used for "move in any direction" they usually specify explicitly if that includes moving upwards. Also, unless it has a fly speed, it's safe to assume that the echo can fall after making it's movement.

[@phelps6205]

The echo has no movement, it is an object you can move, so if you say "go there and stay", it will, as long as the space is not occupied it can stay midair forever.

[@timothy13ize]

I don't think I can agree that this subclass is better than the others for the following reasons. 1: You have completely locked down for your bonus action for echo creation and teleports. A build with CBE or PAM are two of the most powerful builds, and they synergise terribly with echo knight. 2: their extra attack is long rest dependant. I ask myself would I rather have 3/4 extra attacks per long rest, or 12 superiority dice(assuming 2 long rests). I would choose the superiority dice every time. 3. The attacks of opportunity are nice with the echo, but realistically you'll only get 1/2 extra per battle. One of the enemies will just devote an attack to taking it out worst scenario. Now this is powerful, but I don't think it's super powerful. This ability really shines in single monster encounters where they do few, but powerful attacks. 3: The teleporting ability is nice, but it takes a bonus action, so you can't use it the same turn you create an echo. And it doesn't actually help end an encounter in the same way extra damage or spells do. Also I don't think it's super useful in most encounters. Most encounters take place underground or in very closed spaces.

[@NopeNope724]

What about doing a level 2-3 dip into trickery cleric as an echo knight for illusionary duplicate, and going even further for mirror image, pass without trace, and second level spells like spiritual weapon and prayer of healing? A bit MAD but with custom origins you can easily get a 16 in all three stats, even a 17 in one stat and 16 in the other two.

[@mikem3074]

i was planning on having a druid in my campaign obtain a companion from the shadowfell at around lvl 12. It was going to be a shadow (inspired by Peter Pan). This echo has some similar features that i came up with...pretty cool. I decided the switch places as a bonus action ability was too OP and made it an action for the shadow companion i created though.

[@Alex-im7hf]

I might have heard incorrectly but if you can create a new shadow version of your character as a bonus action with no limit to how many you make its OP. if you decide to play a ranger version of this class with a heavy cross bow 1d10+ modifier and you can have about 32 of them around you before they start disappearing and they all can make their own attract we are looking at 300+ possible damage in 1 round of combat.

[@Alex-im7hf]

Or if you can only create just one you can multiclass with an assassin based class then us it to hid and make surprise attacks to get critical hits which is also crazy.

[@dogm34t_20]

This is awesome! I’m doing a pirate echo knight for our curse of strahd campaign right now. We just finished death house so I gor my level three and I cant wait to start using all these bad ass abilities

[@unchartedexe]

Only downside with barbarian MC is that you can't rage in heavy armor iirc?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

That's true, though honestly reckless attack is why I would go for this multiclass. Whether it's worth going to medium armor really depends.

[@Reepicheep-1]

Manifest on a bonus is also good for soaking party damage. Attack vs Echo is 1 less attack vs Wiz/Sorc/War. Repeat each round.

[@jimsimpson3280]

Shadow Martyr says another creature you can see doesn't it work like sculpt spells them and you can't use it for yourself?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Yes, my mistake, you can't use it to protect yourself. Still a decent ability, but not objectively better than the illusionists as I thought.

[@Tupadre97]

17:15 you could use the avatar to attack sure but since you have the blinded condition it should technically be at disadvantage, but... if you're 1000 feet away when you attack and count as an unseen attacker (or are invisible) you would get advantage on the attack meaning they'd cancel each other out so yeah this is actually pretty powerful lol. although i'd use it for ranged attacks with sharpshooter rather than melee especially since the echo can fly.

[@clauwitz]

I feel like a lot of DMs are going to rule the echo can only move to spaces you could stand in. How do you feel about the class then?

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Still good, but a lot less good. For what it's worth, JC has confirmed the echo is intended to be able to fly.

[@this_epic_name]

@@TreantmonksTemple late to the party, but why on earth would the designers think "unlimited flying? sounds great!"

[@DavidSmith-mt7tb]

Essentially granting an unlimited teleport is insane. Also worth considering is that 1hp doesn't really matter cause it's unlimited use. Even in a 3 round combat that's 3 hits it could potentially tank for the party. You can spawn it and make all your attacks on your turn, even into situations where it'd be surrounded, make all your attacks and then you either get the free opportunity attack if they ignore it or waste their attack.

[@tomasdelgado5233]

Can the Echo interact with the environment much like an advanced mage hand?

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

Unfortunately... No.

[@Dave004]

With the 7th level feature, the downside I would assume is if it is say 800ft away from you scouting and gets destroyed, you'd resummon it within 15ft from you and it would have to go back out 800ft vs just instantly reappearing back where it was destroyed correct? Now if we assume 30ft per 6 seconds assuming its per round that would be about 2 minutes and 40 seconds. Not a big issue but just not instant either.

[@Just_som_Ottur]

Forge Adept 10, Echo Knight 4, War Master 5, Knowledge Domain 1. Intelligence for all Attacks and Magic. One level for whatever else. For me, I like skills, so I went Cleric. If you’re witty, you could forgo the Wisdom and skills, and go Hexblade to get Hexblade’s Curse, adding Charisma Mod. Damage and 19/20 Crit chance for all attacks. Took Shillelagh and Polearm Master for my Quarterstaff and Shield build.

[@FlorisGerber]

This is a very good overview. The one thing I wished you had spent a little more time on is the fighting style section. I tried to get tunnel fighter to work, but I do not know how these rules truly interact; and I think that the style that gives a superiority die might be reall nice, too.

[@FlorisGerber]

swapped tunnel fighter (which did nothing bc the dm doesnt use maps) against the superiority style. Using commanders strike, to be nice to the rogue, even if it is a suboptimal choice.

[@scottburns5049]

I think it makes sense with the rules written that you can swap places using echo avatar but not attack

[@scottburns5049]

The echo says within 5' of your echo if an enemy moves away, you get an opportunity attack. Polearm master allows you to get that opportunity when they enter your reach. You assume you can do things with echo avatar that don't state it can do, but not allow things obviously you can!