The Elusive I - Part 7

Psychedelic and mystical experiences of the no-self. Is the self real?
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[@BrodesG]

I fully agree with Chris on the importance of a pragmatic and existential understanding of the self. This was an eye-opening moment for me, aligning with Christian perspectives, where pragmatic and existential elements can be seen as more real on a certain level than naturalistic understandings. That being said, there’s a reason I’m engaging with these episodes-they offer elegance, depth, and meaning where traditional explanations fall short (a hallmark of Vervaeke’s content). They are incredibly insightful, useful, and rigorous, deepening my grasp of psychology, which is my passion and field of study. Thank you so very much, John.

[@domenicmolinaro6580]

Regarding the project goal stated towards the end, your guys' framing of fragmented ontological epistemological landscape of modern life, and how the self-relevance/socio-cultural feedback loop has become is distended was very existentially useful. I have a slightly better "grip" now as you are affording meaningful scaffolding for my self-glue to stick to

[@JiminiCrikkit]

Some points made here I've never heard articulated before... and essentially important points they are too! Thank you for this. Superb.

[@climbingmt.sophia]

Also, John's witt when it comes out is so satisfying "where did John go?" 🤣

[@climbingmt.sophia]

Per Chris's excellent articulation, there is a way in which the changing models of self models maybe decreases the attachment of the existential sense from the self model. I realize I can change models of conceptual selfhood, and my existential sense actually deepens, thus my ontological grounding disassociates from the propositional concept.

[@dalibofurnell]

This was great, I have much to digest and I am looking forward to the project

[@leedufour]

Thanks Gregg, Christopher and John!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee.

[@Krasbin]

I don't know if it helps, but I recently started thinking about the self in two forms: 1. The fixed self as a thing, which possibly maps onto the cartesian self and the autobiographical self. 2. The flowing self as a process, which I relate to the non-self in Buddhism or the true self in Advaita Vedanta. Now that I am thinking about it, maybe they were once one thing, but then they diverged and eventually split as systems of writing (putting your self into writing = autobiography) became ever more pervasive in human culture. As an example of the second point, in Harry Potter part 2, there is a diary which contains part of the soul of Voldemort. And it comes back to life when Ginny Weasley interacts with it and is controlled by it.

[@climbingmt.sophia]

Existential flourishing is the hallmark of map integrity

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

Recently read about your egocentric to onto-centric move in one of your articles. Will have to come back to this series after After Socrates 🙈

[@domenicmolinaro6580]

A thought I had is that perhaps the "attractor space" that is so befuddling is what is being pointed to by durands/letheby (though maybe they don't point at it very well)...the space itself and no-self are analogous, while the phenomenological shifting within the space is analogous to self. The binding takes place in a container/awarness/or perhaps the energy information field gregg mentioned, which some point to with the term "no-self"

[@evanblackie7510]

One question I have whether our sense of self, with it’s continuity over time and sameness across vastly different cognition is some real phenomenon of the ‘true’ cognitive machinery, or whether it’s a clever trick. So in this view the self is real as the interconnected collective of stuff, but the sense of self is just an ingredient of consciousness. Thanks as always for your thought provoking series.

[@joeyfoster5799]

I have an idea regarding this that I would like for you to consider John or Gregg or Chris. So when you talk of the flow state, specifically your comments around the 11 minute mark, you talk about the narrative self falling away. About people losing that sense of the narrative and as a consequence feeling more “at-onement”. I would like to ask if you have considered the possibility that the narrative self is not falling away, but possibly falling into alignment with the actions. With the perspectival and participatory knowing of the person. By that I mean to say that the narrative self may not be “gone” per say, but that it may be seen more as integrated fully with the other types of knowing. Which may be to say that it is speaking through the other types of knowing and not in opposition with them. That the narrative and the actions are in complete alignment in a way. I am not as articulate as any of you by a long shot but would love to hear your thoughts on this! Thanks for your time!

[@willgiorno1740]

Yay! Still doing the work of the mushroom! Thanks. Can u point me to the place where u establish that consciousness is not the ultimate 'ground'?

[@jgarciajr82]

Will you be explaining energy information to Bernardo in 6 days? How do you get past consciousness is all there is?

[@philipmirkin9935]

Thanks Guys Most interesting. Have you considered Smuts holism framework where he looks at the self as the latest manifestation of evolution? It Goethean thinking where all that is manifest is the expression of some Ur-model or archetypal form-generating principle which can be creatively applied by each manifestation? Most of what I've heard in this session can be contextualised using a combination of these holistic approaches. Thanks again. I'm a fan Philil

[@jgarciajr82]

Also have you heard of Jim Newman?