The Empire History Lied About (it's not Tartaria!)

[@tobystewart4403]

Herotodus did not believe in Britain. He thought it a silly rumour. As I grow older, I have come to share his conviction. .

[@Bern_il_Cinq]

😂

[@mrbaab5932]

Lol

[@samsonsoturian6013]

Herodotus never wrote of Thule

[@kingofnorthumbria]

I take a more agnostic approach. Show me Britain and I'll believe it but till then.....

[@MrChickennugget360]

like Birds i wish britain was real.

[@DevinDTV]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Herodotus absolutely does NOT deserve the "father of lies" title, because he wasn't lying and he wasn't even always reporting things he believed to be true, he was instead reporting hearsay and best guesses, and he was completely transparent about this fact. He would often remark that a claim he was sharing sounded unlikely to him.

[@theseustoo]

Indeed! As 'history' had yet to be invented, it had no rules of historiography, and Herodotus was really more of an 'historical story-teller' than an historian. He was closer to being a poet, like Homer or Virgil, than a historian such as Thucydides or Tacitus. He even admits that his concern, when presented with several different versions of some event (particularly, for example, the death of Cyrus), that his priority in choosing which version to tell was to choose the 'most noble' story. Thus his real concern was not historical accuracy, but which version of a story would be more likely to inspire nobility in the minds of his readers. So yes, to call him the 'father of lies' is really a bit harsh! If it were true of him, it was even more true of Homer, and more still of Virgil! Are poets 'liars'? Or are they merely poets, taking 'poetic licence' in order to satisfy their respective muses and to inculcate nobility of mind in their audiences?

[@kylezdancewicz7346]

I mean this is like holding ‘philosophers’ to actual scientific standards, 90% of their ideas and “research” would be laughed at in modern science but that’s all there was back then

[@Wisdomcucco]

So the "father of lies" title is a lie? I'm trying to think a better title for Herodotus, but I can't think of a word for a lie that comes from ignorance or heresay. It's not a white lie, maybe you could call it a grey lie! The "father of fables" is an option but it's misrepresentation. I like the "father of fudge".

[@T33K3SS3LCH3N]

Historians: The Median Empire is an elusive and tricky concept Statisticians: The median empire lasts 87.63 years, spans 108 million km², had a population of 373,988,101 and was ruled by a 12 yr old

[@maxstirner6143]

Thats x5 the total glove population at the time 😂

[@braunschweig-mapping-01]

@@maxstirner6143 its a joke, did you see the area???

[@generalmarkmilleyisbenedic8895]

@@braunschweig-mapping-01thats not apparent notsee supporter

[@denniswilkerson5536]

Damn… ruled by a 12 year old for 87 years, that’s pretty cool.

[@stilltoomanyhats]

They were much nicer than the different, but related Mean Empire.

[@DavidSmith-ue9vo]

One man's Mede is another man's Persian.

[@rubenyoungblood3167]

I came here just to find this comment.

[@anonymousbloke1]

What flavor of persian are you today? Iranian? Tajik? Kurd? Sarmatian? Perhaps.. Ossetian?

[@samankucher5117]

@@anonymousbloke1 in Persian kurdek(kurds) means nomads ... in kurdish parsek(a persian) means a beggar .... if they are one people than they all are racist to each other lets be honest thats the onle excepted form of racism.

[@mahatmaniggandhi2898]

​​@@samankucher5117 kurd originally meant nomad but now it's sole meaning is the kurdish people and i dont know why you think it would be offensive. and i dont know if parsek has anything to do with pars or not

[@samankucher5117]

@@mahatmaniggandhi2898 parsek and parsak mean Persian and bagger in kurdish. kurds and Persians Generally dont like each other they use these words as insults if they weren't offensive they wouldn't have used them unfortunately.

[@FukuokuaZoomer]

The Median Empire was the friends we made along the way.

[@richardsonrym]

The median empire swallows 8 spiders annually. This is a statistical error, the average empire eats 0 spiders annually but the Spiders Georg empire is in a cave and eats 10,000 spiders a year and should be discarded as a statistical outlier

[@Archangelm127]

You win the Internet for today, FukuokaZoomer. Congratulations. ❤

[@Rishi123456789]

>The Median Empire was the friends we made along the way. Fucking cringe.

[@almishti]

or, hear me out, maybe it was the enemies we made along the way. What is an empire without enemies against which to define its borders and its ethos? But no one ever thinks about the enemies, no, they only think about themselves.

[@danielstewart2602]

@@almishti internet is embracing the cringe on yo

[@darthJ9]

Great to be back. Herodotus mention within 60 seconds, we're in for a good time

[@michaeljfoley1]

I always thought of the Medes as a kind of Proto-Achaemenids, where the Persians just picked up where the Medes left off. Clearly that is a distorted perspective. Thanks for the video 👍

[@MarkVrem]

Same. Now that perspective makes sense as some sort of temporary middle ground.

[@GenericYoutubeGuy]

Nope, the Medes hardly retained power for much time, however they were highly respected by the Persians and their kings were considered honorary, and for a short time they had partitioned Babylon together with another group.

[@alanpennie8013]

​@@GenericKZbinGuy I do wonder whether the idea of Median ancestry was a tradition invented by The Achaemenids. Though why they'd do that isn't clear. Maybe they had a grudge against The Elamites and wrote them out of history.

[@seannolan9857]

​@@alanpennie8013The Elamite identity had survived every attempt of conquest for over 2000 years at that point. I can see how that might be viewed as a potential threat to Persian hegemony.

[@GenericYoutubeGuy]

@@alanpennie8013 well that’s interesting because in the Bible, Haman, well I’ll just say his name is supposedly related to a Elamite word. I don’t see any logic as to why they, the Persians, would make up Median ancestry. I also wonder if you mean the Persians did this publicly or if they erased it later. But really all I know about this, is that, Elamites, Medes, and Persians, all lived together in their own kingdoms. I have a high suspicion that the system the Persian empire had regarding respecting the Medes is similar to that of the United Kingdom. It’s of course most likely that the Medes went by a different name. But I think the Medes existed. There’s no reason at all to make it up.

[@CodyosVladimiros]

I'd like to hear more about the Elamite origins of the Achaemenid polity now! Is that coming?

[@shadowgod1797]

persians = aryans + elamites

[@clarenceonyekwere5428]

History by CY has some stuff about it.

[@authentic_candor]

I have bad news, it did actually exist, and virtually around the same size as the classical sources state. I did this as part of my master's thesis. A lot of this theory is scholarly hype mainly fueled by limited archaeological evidence. However, read the Sippar Cylinder of king Nabonidus; he describes how he wanted to retake the city of Harran but couldn't because "the Mede surrounds it and his might is excessive." Harran was a good distance west, which really means the Medes must have controlled large parts of Anatolia in order to have a presence there, just as originally thought. Theres more of course I can add but this is a youtube comment that's already very long :)

[@JojoBojob]

Ya exactly. And not only that, the babylonians also built "The median wall" which was located between Tigris and Euphrates, many many miles away from Ecbatana and the traditional heartland of the Medes, showing quite decisively that they ruled lands that were foreign to them, hence making them an Empire in the traditional sense. We also have signs of destruction in Urartu which happens to be AFTER the fall of Assyria but BEFORE the rise of the achamenids, suggesting that the classical sources were right about the medes. Not to mention the fact that the battle of the eclipse, between the Medes and the Lydians can be confirmed by basic astronomy, which strengthens the narrative of the classical sources, that the Medes conquered and fought all the way to the borders of Lydia near the Halys river. Personally I believe this is only bad scholarship, with academics trying to make a name for themselves through sheer and unashamed historical revisionism. I can't describe it as anything other than lack of academic and intellectual integrity.

[@Jupiter-td4kw]

As an Iranian this argument is kinda funny to me, the Persians not only spoke of the Medes but actually depicted them on rock carvings,often holding hands.by the way the board game called chess was actually called shah mad in ancient times which translates to “king of Medes” ,the word “checkmate” comes from the word shah mad

[@zimriel]

@@Jupiter-td4kw i thought it was "shah mat" meaning "king ded u looz"

[@restitvtororbis5330]

It's truly astounding how long the Proto-Basque have been confounding historians and archeologists

[@locorum9103]

lmao

[@tejdandekar]

Thank you for doing Near Eastern and Asian history, not nearly enough of it on this platform!

[@WorthlessWinner]

Cyrus is more impressive if he wasn't taking over a preexisting empire

[@a.s2205]

theres no historic person as impressive as Cyrus the great

[@Existgoth]

​@@a.s2205 Genghis Khan?

[@Bern_il_Cinq]

@@ExistgothGenghis Khan is lame, just some guy who took over a bunch of other empires.

[@holdingpattern245]

hey, he made it bigger

[@a.s2205]

@@Existgoth he was a savage who destroyed and contributed 0 to the world

[@Yora21]

There is also a considerable doubt if Cyrus was even an Achaemenid. That claim is only made by Darius after he killed the person on the throne, who he claimed was an imposter.

[@arassadeghi3998]

that's why I believe that cyrus's history could been fake history and darios or later iranian dynasties just founded it. History is full of lies, sadly the history of my own country as well (iran)

[@nevets2371]

​@@randomuser-xc2wr I don't completely disagree, but whether or not he was an actual usurper, he was certainly a competent king of kings

[@beback_]

​@@nevets2371Yeah his competence as an administrator is much more important than some divine rights of kings bullshit.

[@toomanymarys7355]

And Darius was almost certainly from near the river Oxus, nowhere near where Cyrus was from!

[@JMM33RanMA]

This is extremely interesting. I lived and taught in Iran in the 1970s, and made a point of visiting Hamadan, Persepolis and Isfahan. My Iranian sources told me that into the early 20th Century Iranians were semi-nomadic, moving from the hot lowlands to the cooler uplands, pastoral people with flocks and city people with villas. Iran is still about 50% tribal, so an earlier Persia being an association of tribes is not unimaginable. As suggested here, maybe our perception is wrong. Rather than being like Rome or later European Empires, maybe the Persian Empire, at first anyway, was more like the Angevin or Holy Roman Empires. I've always suspected that Media vs Persia was more like an internal regime change than a war between states. Thanks for very interesting and absolutely thought provoking video!

[@Chevalier.D.Artagnan]

Iran isn't 50 % tribal.

[@beback_]

Iran is 77% urban.

[@thenoobprincev2529]

That stat is for Pre-modern era/late nineteenth century, and it was 40%, not 50%. Modern day Iran is almost 80% urban, with around 1% remaining nomadic population.

[@JMM33RanMA]

@@thenoobprincev2529 That tracks, but do the figures count people with seasonal villas or non-villa vacation spots as nomadic? I could have been classified as nomadic for most of my ESL career as I moved from country to country teaching. Also, there is the "snowbird" phenomenon in the US. People, usually older or retired and sometimes with families, move south to escape from the cold winters in the Northeast. That is definitely nomadic, but is not usually labeled as such. No doubt some people will think a literal description is an insult.

[@Jupiter-td4kw]

@@JMM33RanMApeople in Iran don’t live like that anymore, almost everybody stays put in their cities,people only travel for vacation, i mean if you go to Hawaii for a vacation is that considered living a nomadic life style?the only nomadic people in Iran i know of are the Qashqai people who live in Shiraz.the Persians did take over the Median empire by a military coup, the king if the Medes Ishtovigo or Astyages in greek was Cyrus’s grandfather ,so basically Cyrus rebelled against his own grandfather and took the throne.the Medes were mentioned by the Assyrians numerous times ,in one Sargon the second mentions the king of Medes named Diako (the first king of Medes) uniting with the Urartians against the Mannaea kingdom but was captured by Sargon and exiled to Syria

[@jamescobban857]

Ancient societies had no anthropologists. Today we interpret comments by ancient writers as if they were anthropological. The Greeks never used the terms Mede and Persian in a consistent way. From my reading of the sources it seems that one man's Mede is another man's Persian.

[@jasondaveries9716]

This is really mind blowing to me. Once for a paper in college I researched the origins of the Achaemenid empire and was surprised by how such a large empire like the medians could have so little information about it!

[@onlyfacts4999]

Maybe the Medes were like Mongols, they had an 'empire' but didn't leave behind much material culture for archaeologists to find, other than signs of destruction.

[@LiterallyWho1917]

the mongols left political entities across Eurasia which survived for centuries in varying capacity. They also left towers of humans skulls that reached 100ft high when they originally went through

[@kuman0110]

​@@LiterallyWho1917 wait wasnt the skull towers guy was Timur not Chingghis

[@rainyvideos3684]

@@kuman0110 No, the mongols did that too. Who did you think Timur was imitating after all?

[@BlueBird-q8k]

We have a lot from hamadan

[@ikengaspirit3063]

​@@LiterallyWho1917 okay, and the Medes left behind the Achaemenids and I have yet to hear of archeological discovery of those bones.

[@oliverstjohn2406]

It should also be noted that ‘history is written by the winners’. Achaemenid sources may also have minimized the importance of the Medes as a means of suppressing any possible revolutionary sentiments after the conquest. As historians, we should always be careful about rejecting one assumption in favor of another, since we can’t categorically state that either one was wrong. For all we know, someone will dig something up tomorrow that validates Herodotus. Nevertheless, great video - I definitely learned a lot from it. Kudos!

[@roychen5235]

That would make sense except their existence as a major power is downplayed by Assyrian sources as well compared to say the babylonians or egyptians. Under the theory that the Medes were a semi-nomadic tribal confederation, or the leading language/ethnic group of a loosely defined tribal confederation that includes the persians I can see the greeks confusing them and the persians in the same way the mongols were called and confused for the Tartars. From their perspective they did not succeed the Medes, the medes were an entirely different ethnic group they subjugated. The Elamites used to be the great power in the region, in the same way the mongols sought to emulate the Turkic Khaganates not the Tartars. Likewise the greeks and assyrians only understanding city relations may not have understood the difference between tribal tributary relations and vassals. The persians and the cities in the region like Ecbatana could've been basically independent except for paying the Medes off.

[@FrancisFjordCupola]

Herodotus wrote that he wrote down what people told him. I think it gives great insights to people back then and also issues of communication. Love the stuff like how people far north sleep for half a year. Problem is more with modern historians than Herodotus; modern historians want to figure out what truly happened, what was the truth. Then they try to transpose their standards on Herodotus, basically making claims in his name that he didn't make.

[@huguesdepayens807]

True, same with the bible

[@Arkantos117]

People who trash talk Herodotus have no idea what they're talking about.

[@danukil7703]

Oh, how fascinating! I am excited for this deep dive into the Median Empire :)

[@danukil7703]

Correction: now that I have watched the full video, I understand that the Median "Empire" probably did not exist. I am now curious to learn more about the Elamites, since it seems they played a much more prominent role than traditional historiography allocates to them

[@dafyddthomas6897]

Ifn Media was never important why did the Greek say "medize" for Greeks who supported Persia?

[@uncleobscurenobody8861]

For the same reason white people are called 'Caucasian' even though they aren't from the Caucasus- even though the old idea is outdated, the name sticks

[@zack2804]

@@randomuser-xc2wr The word "Persia" is literally a Greek/western term, which only gained significance when the Achaemenids became a prominent force in the region. And they called it that because they thought the entire region spoken only a single language (which is false, given how diverse Iran still is). In the battle of Thermopylae, sources refer to the Immortals including "the finest men from Medes"--which acknowledged a distinguishment.

[@zack2804]

@@randomuser-xc2wr Biased and Euro-centric recounts of Ancient Greco-Persian conflicts don't really interest me, even when works of fiction.

[@Aq_3]

@@randomuser-xc2wr that don't mean the Persian empire term was wrong, it simply they were ignorant or generalize

[@samsonsoturian6013]

It's unfair to call Herodotus a liar since he simply used the sources available. You will note he excised the more legendary elements about what pre-Dorian Greece was like. You are simply using the word "lie" incorrectly.

[@bluelithium9808]

Zero genetic evidence of Dorian peoples/migration/conquest.

[@BkennyP]

He didn't call him a liar, he merely stated he is sometimes called "the father of lies" 2:06. He stated what others have said about him. But nowhere in the video does he call Herodotus a liar.

[@samsonsoturian6013]

@@BkennyP Which is also bullshit, it just sounds grand

[@BkennyP]

@@samsonsoturian6013 Maybe you can make a video to voice your opinion on the matter so more people can hear your thoughts and possibly a greater dialogue can be extended, regarding Herodotus. I would watch said video and right now seems like it would be a good time since he has more critics right now more than ever so it seems.

[@MarkVrem]

I"'m sure Herodotus knew he was a liar. But the lies he put out were his best-calculated attempts at truth for the Greek audience. It is like making a comment on KZbin where you know you don't have full confidence in what you are typing. It is almost guaranteed to be a lie.

[@moviereviews1446]

Nice bookshelf

[@TheFallofRome]

Thank you!

[@stephencuffel4932]

The pavers are handsome, an improvement on the old concrete-block system. The left edge of the video frame hints at the utility of a plumb bob.

[@j.f.fisher5318]

Crazy that tartaria needs debunking now.

[@Emerild]

the tartaria/mudflood/antiquitech crowd are the modern flat earthers

[@Bern_il_Cinq]

"The 999 Nations* of the Persian Empire descend upon you!"

[@arman_1024]

Fantastic video as always. The issue today is that a lot of people are too emotionally and ideologically devoted either in blindly believing anything Herodotus claimed or in believing that the Median empire existed.

[@ebrim5013]

I don’t understand this Herodotus cult. It shouldn’t be that wild to understand that it’s useful to read Herodotus but equally he was fallible and not unquestionable.

[@arman_1024]

@@ebrim5013 some people think that if an ancient writer wrote something, it must automatically be a fact that can’t be questioned or dismissed. Some people have other ridiculous reasons for why they cite him as a purely factual source.

[@michaeljfoley1]

@@arman_1024 I think its just a general holdover from 19th and 20th century historiography, which was such a "Western" phenomenon really, and the Greeks were considered "Western", even though they were really very far east from England 🤨 This history of how these biases develop, is fascinating in and of itself.

[@board-qu9iu]

⁠@@michaeljfoley1Greeks were western in the idea of founding democracy and a lot of beliefs and cultural values Europe would eventually have (tho this is pretty vague)

[@MorrisJohn-vo2vn]

Yeah, personally I am skeptical of the modern academia as well. I get that Herodotus could get stuff wrong but I don't see why he'ld just make shit up wholesale like the theory is assuming (that he made it up due to an assumption of Empires but given the Babylonian Empire also existed, he had no reason to).

[@thenutella8846]

See, when bringing this up, one could theorize that the Medes did have an empire but were simply a ruling tribe/caste that mostly stayed seminomadic while the various peoples they ruled over did the actually industry and construction. I could easily believe that Median majority settlements didn't exist or if they did then they would have used the previous cultures art and architecture, especially those of the Assyrians considering it as prestigious. call me dogmatic, but for as much grains of salt I give to Herodotus, he and a few other sources speak of cities in media, and records of Cyrus' conquests would have had to involve way more territories and individual wars before his conquest of Lydia and Babylon, implying that the lands he conquered from the Medes were already extensive. We know for a fact that non-Mede peoples were living in the areas assumed to be the median empire and were constructing urbanized settlements that would have been independent nations if their wasn't already one. These were from before and during the supposed Mede era, so it wouldn't be like conquering a nomadic empire in a relatively empty and large tract of land. It just makes sense for there to be a Median empire. Plenty of other seminomadic/nomadic nations we know existed at later times that didn't leave much obvious archeological footprints or distinctive material culture would be a point to consider.

[@Maurice599]

Love this channel man, you should be more popular

[@aregranhaug8617]

This video explains why I prefer modern history to ancient history - trustworthy sources.

[@brucknerian9664]

You're ripe for the taking! Did you buy that bridge in Brooklyn?

[@violentnexus3563]

😂

[@thomasbest8599]

@@brucknerian9664bet he listens to russian radio🇺🇦

[@accessthemainframe4475]

Looking fresh with that haircut and clean shave fam 💯

[@the_clawing_chaos]

That was really enlightening, thanks. I'd like to hear more about this Persians coming from Elamites. I know Anshan was one of the great Elamite cities, and Cyrus did claim to be the king of Anshan, but I also heard that the Indo-European tribes from the steppes took it over in the early Iron age. So it would be good to get some clarity on this

[@shadowgod1797]

persians = aryans + elamites

[@aaabbb6704]

I think it's possible that the "Medes" often refers to people living in the mountain areas east to Mesopotamia, it's a very board term, that why the Hebrews and the Greeks often refer Persians as Medes.

[@austinaiken3819]

Great video. I love seeing that I have at least a few dozen of the same books as you haha

[@someguysomeone3543]

How will Kurdish Median larpers recover from this?

[@thenutella8846]

By doubling down and claiming we're the orignial people and all other peoples in the region are kurds too, of course (I'm half kurdish and half zazaki, before anyone gets offended). There's always the Mitanni we can try and claim.

[@ahG7na4]

I thought only (us) Eastern Euros had these "we wuz secretly great but they (they=Catholic monks, Americans, Soviets, ...) covered it up" kinds of ideologies/theories. tee-hee

[@samankucher5117]

@@thenutella8846 you cant be a half zaza and a falf kurd .... they are the same its like a guy saying i am half persian and half tahrani 💀.

[@horatiuscocles8052]

The Medes did exist what we are saying is that they probably did not rule an actual civilized settled empire.

[@horatiuscocles8052]

​@@thenutella8846 The Mitanni are pretty cool as well

[@saronova5371]

I keep scratching my head wide near eastern historical topics never mentioned Armenia, it was a large part of the near east for millennia, at least occupying one third of it, and they have archives. They are still around so you can talk to them and see what their historians have to say, may be a great help

[@Makaneek5060]

I think Herodotus was right about all of it, especially the flying snakes, they kick ass.

[@qboxer]

Very interesting presentation. Your concluding remarks seem to suggest that the Elamites, rather than the Medians, ought to be seen as a much stronger influence on the Achaemenids. Do you believe that they actually held a much larger territory than is traditionally ascribed? I would love to see a video from you on the Elamites.

[@lambert801]

It is established that the Elamites provided the civil backbone of the Achaemenid state, especially in those earlier days. Cyrus himself and his dynasty were originally lords of Anshan (an Elamite city).

[@Marc83Aus]

Its not fair to say they didnt exist just because they were kinda mid.

[@wg4154]

I have a feeling that they were just tribes back then.

[@FromComa]

Herodotus lied about Marathon because the Persians did not intend to capture Athens, the Persian army defeated the Greeks in the plain of Marathon, and some of the Greek armies also escaped and hid around, and the Persian army returned to the ship and moved towards owns territory, and Herodotus has falsely referred to it as a victory in favor of Athens

[@idionym6817]

Median empire was probably a placebolder name for a non-existent empire between time separated empires in that region. Based on my knowledge wholly limited to what was presented in this video, I'd bet they were maxing personal freedom in a pseudo-anarcharistic state and the surrounding empires probably did not like the concept of their bottom-up power structure. Their history was erased through conquest, and there's little to speak of them as a result. Thank you for sharing information on this blank spot of history.

[@ClarenceDoskocil]

Were not the Medes the Magi or priestly caste that survived within Persian Culture? Were the Medes not necessarily a "civilization," but a culture with marriage alliances all the way from Lydia to parts of India? I've read Herodotus 30+ times since 1995 and a lot of his reportings, even a few quirky ones have been proven correct. I trust Herodotus. Please do a feature on Lydia.

[@sue_downing555]

Hands, oh, the hands, don't show me the hands. I am here for other things.

[@duboisdvoleur]

Thanks, it is all interesting. Learning the limits of our knowledge is important.

[@samsonsoturian6013]

Maybe the Medo-Persian Empire was like Yugoslavia. For most of its history it was dominated by Serbia, but for a brief time when it was a German satellite state it was dominated by Croatia.

[@phunkracy]

Maybe more like Gaul. Disunited as a rule, but for a time, a leader emerged that gathered the kingdoms and tribes under one banner (Vercingetorix).

[@enderman_666]

when was Yugoslavia dominated by Croatia? the German satellite you're thinking about was the Independent State of Croatia, a fascist regime that built itself up on being the antithesis of Yugoslavia lol

[@mrbaab5932]

​@@phunkracyAlesia

[@samsonsoturian6013]

@@enderman_666 The Nazi puppet state of Yugoslavia was Croat dominated because the Croats happened to be the Serbs' internal rival. Although the details get complicated with collaborators, autonomous states, and guerrillas.

[@myhandlehasbeenmishandled]

​@@samsonsoturian6013buddy. Those were two different nations. Yugoslavia changed it's borders a number of times. During Nazis Croatia was it's own nation. And at no time did Croats controlled Yugoslavia.

[@bartoszszczepaniak169]

Persia probably was born like this then: the Persians conquered Elam and adopted their governmental structures and some other things and then conquered Medes.

[@SilverSquirrel]

As it turns out, they were actually the Mediocre empire.

[@lezardvaleth2304]

I first learned about the Medes from, of all things, from one of the Asterix andObelix books. Which I guess proves what a death grip the Medes had on pop history back in those days.

[@danvernier198]

I really despise the click bait title and the reference to nationalist Soviet pseudo science. I usually watch most stuff this channel puts out, but this really annoys me, and it obviously doesn't have anything to do with the map in the thumb nail or the contents of the video.

[@starnaik1]

I love your bookshelf

[@jameswoodard4304]

I think Western writers thought about them as the "Medes and Persians," because those are the peoples they actually confronted on the battlefield. Upon being absorbed into Achaemenid power, the rebellious tribal horsemen joined the armies of Cyrus and his successors. So, the peoples that Western sources actually *saw* were the Assyrio-cidal Medes and their conquerors, the Persians.

[@calebcampbell6353]

Aren't scholars also saying now that the United Kingdom of Israel or the Unified Monarchy never existed too. I heard but don't know where, that the idea of the unified monarchy was created to basically allow for Israel to have a claim to the northern parts of Canaan If the Syro-Hittites, Assyrians or Arameans ever started to falter and lose territory

[@locorum9103]

UsefulCharts definitely presents this view when he talks about the Torah

[@thenutella8846]

There definitely were a few Jewish states within Canaan, but all archeological evidence implies that they didn't encompass the entirety of the land, it's very likely the claim that they did came from ignorance and propaganda that couldn't be refuted at the time. I'm glad archeology let's us learn from non-bias sources.

[@MorrisJohn-vo2vn]

​@@thenutella8846 I think it is a confusion of idealized borders of the territories given to the tribes with the actual borders of the Kingdom. For example, the united Kingdom of Saul is usually just shown as all the 12 tribes but we know Saul definitely didn't control Philistia and was campaigning in some other territories attributed to the tribes so he didn't control all of the other territories either. I think there was a united Kingdom in the highlands as the limits of the cities mentioned by the bible that Saul campaigned in match cities that the Egyptians mention campaigning against when they first returned to Canaan (minus Jerusalem, but given how closely the other cities align and the fact that the time of the Egyptian campaign should be under one of David's successors we could posit the Egyptians arrived either during or causing the division of the Kingdom).

[@DevilPS3player]

Yes they were nomad pagans up until 3rd century bc and there was no first temple but "the second" which was the only one they've built, their myths were invented during macchabes dynasty to fabricate their legitimacy and had no statehood before... Hebrew is scriptural language which was never used by commoners and Torah was written in greek, much later translated into their "language "

[@jaif7327]

@@DevilPS3player wasnt it up till the 6th century during the babylonian exile?

[@ObtuseGoose2]

He didn’t lie about the Scythian human flayers 🗣️🔥

[@JorgeStolfi]

"There is no evidence that there ever was an English Empire. The examples that had been proposed to be English language and culture turned out to be British instead. The American Empire turns out to have evolved from the British civilization, not the English one. We must conclude that the English Empire was a fiction created by European historians (who did not know about Britain) to fill the gap between the Roman Empire and the the American one."

[@edmundt.buckley6858]

As an American, I had to laugh heartily at this. Actually, it was called the British Empire. (The language was Yankee 😉).

[@Bern_il_Cinq]

Pure finesse

[@urielm774]

you nailed it, thank you for detecting his flawed logic.

[@alfaseng]

I don't know if this is a joke or a serious argument, as this is the internet, so I'm going to assume the latter, since someone in the comment section take this seriously. England, at the end of War of the Roses, was a centralized state with an unquestioned hereditary monarch at the top with solid evidence of it existing. Media, as talked in this video, was a amalgamation of disunited tribes/states only perceived by foreigners as united through fragmentary evidences. Also, this is falsely assumed to be the progenitor of the Achaemenid Persia. If this is a joke, I salute to you. Otherwise, you're constructing false analogy as a gotcha to discredit the well-made video.

[@togerboy5396]

Haha exactly.

[@SPQR748]

The Father of lies? I don’t think so. Herodotus stated quite clearly that he only reported what was told to him and that he was under no obligation to believe it. However if he claims to be an eyewitness to an event and you or I don’t believe him then that’s another question altogether.

[@curiouskid1547]

Medes were the borderland Indian tribe known in India as Madas, their country (north west India) was Madra. Their king's sister is known as Amytis by Greeks. She was married to Nebuchadnezzar. In reality, her name was "humaiti", which is a corrupted form of Sanskrit "Sumati" meaning "good thoughts". Herodotus says Medians called themselves "arrian" by which he means they called themselves "Arya". This word was used by ancient Persians and Indians.

[@McToaster-o1k]

One for the algorithm!

[@0th_Law]

Two for the show!

[@Etaoinshrdlu69]

Third times a charm

[@degarpaykararyan3140]

A better theory is that Medes and Persians are the names of geographical regions and not people, Herodotus himself points out that the Medes considered themselves Aryans and spoke easily with the Persians without an interpreter, as according to Strabo . Persian, Sogdian, Bactrian and Madian languages are completely similar and have very little difference. Even Darius considers himself an Aryan in his inscription ، Aryans had the Oxus civilization and the Elamite civilization had an interesting similarity to it

[@briandoherty8337]

Each year I am confronted with just how far the American education had fallen. A lot of Herotodus's "lies" are truths that the self-deluded to not want to be true. As for centuries so call historians denied Troy and the Hittites.

[@secondbeamship]

"In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.” - 2 Kings 17:6 "And the king of Assyria did carry away Israel unto Assyria, and put them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes:” - 2 Kings 18:11 "And there was found at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of the Medes, a roll, and therein was a record thus written:” - Ezra 6:2 "If it please the king, let there go a royal commandment from him, and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes, that it be not altered, That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate unto another that is better than she.” - Esther 1:19 "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.” - Isaiah 13:17 "And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes,” - Jeremiah 25:25 "Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the Lord hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the Lord, the vengeance of his temple.” - Jeremiah 51:11 "Prepare against her the nations with the kings of the Medes, the captains thereof, and all the rulers thereof, and all the land of his dominion.” - Jeremiah 51:28 "Peres; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.” - Daniel 5:28 "Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.” - Daniel 6:8 "Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.” - Daniel 6:12 "Then these men assembled unto the king, and said unto the king, Know, O king, that the law of the Medes and Persians is, That no decree nor statute which the king establisheth may be changed.” - Daniel 6:15 "In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;” - Daniel 9:1 "Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,” - Acts 2:9 The Bible mentions the Medes many times and even late dating of Biblical layers would put it before Herodotus. (Except Acts.) "The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.” - Genesis 10:2 (Madai here likely being Media.) "The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.” - 1 Chronicles 1:5 Here is the polity of Media being mentioned in the Bible. "A grievous vision is declared unto me; the treacherous dealer dealeth treacherously, and the spoiler spoileth. Go up, O Elam: besiege, O Media; all the sighing thereof have I made to cease.” - Isaiah 21:2 "In the third year of his reign, he made a feast unto all his princes and his servants; the power of Persia and Media, the nobles and princes of the provinces, being before him:” - Esther 1:14 "Likewise shall the ladies of Persia and Media say this day unto all the king's princes, which have heard of the deed of the queen. Thus shall there arise too much contempt and wrath.” - Esther 1:18 "And all the acts of his power and of his might, and the declaration of the greatness of Mordecai, whereunto the king advanced him, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia?” - Esther 10:2 "And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.” - Daniel 5:31 "The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.” - Daniel 8:20

[@secondbeamship]

Even in Genesis the genealogy of the Medes is given. So a rather old layer of the Bible. The Bible extensively uses Media as a closely related group to Persians, Chaldeans, Elamites, Assyrians and Babylonians.

[@Bern_il_Cinq]

Does that track back in translation as well as dating?

[@Bern_il_Cinq]

Transliteration*

[@TheDanEdwards]

The Hebrew scriptures were written for religio-political reasons, and reconstructions of the peoples of southwest Asia have shown where the Bible writers made errors (possibly on purpose, possibly not.) If you listen to this video you will discover that the existence of people who can be identified as "Medes" is not the question, but whether there was a great Mede Empire is what is being examined.

[@k.c1126]

I'm glad this list of references was given, though ​@@TheDanEdwards... It suggests that the Medians were always part of a larger group rather than a unique separate empire.

[@NBAverageHeight]

I love history, but this is what I absolutely hate about history. The thing is history (mostly ancient and even some up to medieval or early modern) can sometimes be blurred and the dates of when rulers ruled or lived is often really messed up cause the records are often very scarce, leading to some figures becoming legendary or mythical cause we aren’t sure if they ever existed. Like how the first 29-50 emperors of Japan are legendary and even the one who aren’t still have lack of records about their life and is filled with legend. Like the first Ottoman Sultan Osman I who despite being born not in ancient times but pretty much close to early modern, still has such scarcity about him, and I wonder if he was actually real. Ancient records are so messed up. Making what actually happened almost obscured of information. Like the Roman kings in Rome. This always just annoys and frustrates me cause it prevents me from knowing what actually happened, I consider it a thorn in the back of learning history. Sometimes I wonder if even more modern history still has messed up records, I even ask myself if Napoleon was a real person or a legendary figure or with messed up records. The thing about history is we are never truly sure whether it truly ever happened and we can only rely on records or patterns to figure it out.

[@brucknerian9664]

Seems you're saying we should all be 99.9% skeptical about absolutely everything; and for the other 0.1% we're standing on thin ice. Not a very balanced perspective, unless all you're interested in is sleeping all night and all day.

[@howaboutataste]

I'm guessing its a combination of Herotodus' desire to underacknowlege the Persians and other rivals, and the simple fact that Greeks knew of the area through trade contact, rather than political contact. This colors their attribution of who's empire this is.

[@abandoninplace2751]

Whoa, i've been wanting to know more about Elam in general, and about its interface with Iranic peoples. 56 seconds left what? Cliffhanger, that.

[@davidc5191]

No one would doubt that there was a Mongol Empire under Genghis Khan, even though there's little archeology, if at all, to support this. There was likely a Medean Empire (Confederation?) even if only through conquest and not through building cities.

[@jimhallberg2142]

This sounds similar to how the Gutian "kingdom" that filled the power vacuum after Akkad. As a more nomadic people than those they defeated, the population group dispersed through the territories conquered. Contrast this to the Assyrians, who mostly just took over existing power structures by force to direct tribute to their heartland. So without the pressure of other powers pushing on the borders of their territory, a large driver for the urbanization of the Medians behind walls would dissipate. Plus, Assyrian defeat opened up quite a bit of good grazing land for kin-bands of semi-nomadic people to seek a new fortune in. So in that interpretation, Persians conquering the Median Empire would just be Cyrus marching to every area a Median petty king/chieftain had conquered and enforcing a centralized authority upon them. Not the most compelling mythic origin, so it being compressed into a grand fight against another centralized authority for the storytelling tradition is not much of a stretch.

[@kardona_3]

One thousand more subscribers!

[@JorgeStolfi]

The Medes seem to have been a tough adversary of the Assyrians for several centuries; tougher than the Cannanites and the peoples in Southern Mesopotamia and Elam. Once one discounts the bias of the authors, those records read as reports of half-victories at best, that never managed to establish Assyrian control over even part of the land. So maybe the "historical fiction" is actually the modern theory that the Medes were just a bunch of pastoral tribes without any national organization? Again, just because the archaeology of the land has *so far* failed to bring up evidence of a wider political/military organization, it does not mean that it did not exist...

[@ikengaspirit3063]

Yeah, being a powerful political entity in itself alone argues for complex organization.

[@longcastle4863]

Curious as to why the comment section has been turned off for videos under the Halloween & Mythology playlist? Also 5:25.. it established what kind of history in its own right?

[@RedXlV]

Herodotus: "My source is that I made it the fuck up!"

[@Gratiotface-p2u]

can you talk about Henry Corbin’s work if its in your area?

[@Shtf132]

Persians and Medians were allied together until Cyrus inherited both thrones. Xenophon is more accurate

[@dcmccann11]

Why did the Greeks call joining the Persians, Medizing? Was Parmenion put in charge of a place called Media? Who called it that?

[@makinapacal]

I agree the idea that the Persian Empire was a continuation of Elam makes sense. Wasn't one of the titles of Cyrus the Great King of Anshan, an Elamite title. And if I remember correctly wasn't the city of Anshan located not that far from Persepolis?

[@manapo8205]

I was hoping you also address the contact between Media and Lydia, and their supposed battle that Herodotus claims, do we have anything to suggest something like this happened (besides Herodotus)?

[@jaykaufman9782]

The change from complete reliance on Greek and Roman sources only began in the 1980s? That seems late. And did the Iranian Revolution of 1979 creating Iranian exiles fleeing to the West have anything to do with this?

[@samsonsoturian6013]

keep in mind what sources writers are actuallu using including in this video

[@thenutella8846]

I don't think so, I think it had more to do with international archeology finally taking an interest in the middle east beyond biblical archeology. There was some archeological digs and efforts in Iran before then, but very few in comparison to the Mediterranean region.

[@nowthenzen]

It's almost like classical history at best is educated guess work based on barely sufficient and at times contradictory material sources, isn't it?

[@wehonews]

Dude, love your style. You might just have the best - and heaviest - bookshelves on KZbin.

[@Wolfen443]

I blame it on the ancient history record keepers trying to make sense of little or no information. I guess the Medians were the later Assyrians or the group that took over their lands after they collapse. Did they ever had a chance to built an unified civilization in some 100 plus years if the record is accepted?. Probably not, I think that is the real answer.

[@DarthVader-ig6ci]

Enough about the Median Empire, what about the Average Empire or the Percentile Empire, no one has seen them too

[@cyanpunch6140]

great choice for a video subject!

[@Another_opinion_]

20:48 i was thinking of Liverani for the whole video 😅

[@B2F1]

It almost sounds like it was an ancient group of wealthy city states that basically shared a mercenary company. The Greeks would probably hear of this and think (Wealthy City-States + armed group who acted generally in the interests of those cities = Empire) even though it wasn't that deep.

[@Bern_il_Cinq]

Apparently the famous mercenary Xenophon is a big source of our Greek-based information on how the satrapies functioned. From what I've read he seems to imply that the satrapy system was adopted by the Achaemenids FROM the Medians, which would imply that the Medians did at least have some sort of proto-tributary empire at least. Still, Xenophon was born in the twilight years of Herodotus so he wasn't exactly any closer to the development of the system.

[@Aninkovsky]

Please make video about Srivijaya Empire in Indonesia

[@chalinofalcone871]

So, Cyrus is like Ceasar, and Perisia is to Medians as The Empire is to the Republic? Hmmm?

[@waithowlongcanimakemynameo7617]

18:00 You mean Sennacherib???

[@holdingpattern245]

Apparently the Achaemenids availed themselves of the unmatched political cunning of the Elamite ruling class by employing them as viziers and such.

[@nostur4984]

I'm not sure this argument alone outright disproves any semblance of Median uniformity. It's not unusual in this time period for ordinarily disunified people groups to become temporarily or symbolically unified. The native kings of Ireland never actually held direct rule over the entire country yet were still hailed as the de jure leader of Ireland. Does that mean Ireland didn't exist as a polity? I don't think so. The same could be said of the Pictish and later Scottish tribes.

[@eliterun6214]

Alternative theory: Persian Empire succeeded because it was a successful synthesis of Indo-European pastoralists with an extensive horse-driven culture (i.e. the Medes as the most prominent example) and the state-building heritage of the Elamites, with their thousands of years of complexity. The book cited, by Pierre Bryant, presents a picture of the post-Cambyses II (i.e. from Darius the great) as being a time when uniquely Persian elements begin to be emphasized, and there seems to be a reasonable possibility that some sort of hybrid pastoral / Elamite state at this time passed under dominant control of the Persian nobility. In which case, they may have played up their political connections with the Medes, as fellow pastoralists and Indo-European speakers, to increase their within-Empire political legitimacy at the expense of the Elamites.

[@astroflyinsights]

An interesting thesis and makes sense

[@Bern_il_Cinq]

I mean you get the (somewhat) contemporaneous situations where Aryan migrants/conquerers move into India and Persia with their horse-driven nomadic cultures into areas with a thousand years of urbanization like Elam/Mesopotamia and the Indus River Valley. Suddenly the Vedic traditions and Persian confederacies/empires take shape and leave lasting impacts on their respective regions. The adoption of sedentary entrenchment and its blending with the rolling martial culture of the invaders produced some of the first polities and contiguous cultures that we'd think of as empire-sized today. Obvious Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, maybe the Mitanni and Hittites, were able to have hegemony over large areas but those pale in comparison to the Achaemenid and Maurya Empires that emerged a few hundred years after the integration of Aryan nomads and Semitic/Non-IE cityfolk (and debatably the Medians too, thus the video)

[@BraveGisgo]

I love your videos man, ive never not learnt something! There are few on this platform that manage such comprehensive breakdowns.

[@Lenny2012S]

To Greek person Empire was not a necessary fixture. Greeks were perfectly capable to imagine people who do not form an Empire. They lived in such political structures themselves. Nothing forced Herodotus to invent an Empire if he would not get a credible to him information about existence of the empire.

[@texenna]

this is my library of alexandria this is sad

[@MseeBMe]

Meh, as far as empires go, I always thought they Medians were a bit middle of the road…🥁

[@robertc.4609]

Love you videos and thank you for your hard work. Glad your back to more regular uploads.

[@drstevej2527]

Who are you in any related field of study?

[@baneofbanes]

He’s literally a historian.

[@drstevej2527]

@@baneofbanes What kinds? What are his credentials and where is his published research?

[@astroflyinsights]

​@@drstevej2527understanding "published" research after the convid era should have enlightened a lot of people

[@drstevej2527]

@@astroflyinsights What does that even mean especially in relation to a completely unrelated field?

[@specialnewb9821]

It might be helpful if when talking about a region or feature that you circle or somehow highlight on the map in the video.

[@Heyu7her3]

Is this "Median" different from the "Midian" in the Bible?

[@JorgeStolfi]

"Historians cannot find any record of the first two Medean kings in Assyrian chronicles, so they did not exist." Can't you see the logical fallacy there?

[@Davidsavage8008]

Darius sure looked like a babalonian to me.

[@NashBrooklyn]

the map shows the turan empire - not the tartaria empire - but tartaria was right above turan on the same map -

[@Miner-dyne]

Imagine if you will, the last 75 years of the Palestinian 'kingdom' as seen in the distant future. Seen without access to electronic records, and viewed through archeological record as well as a handful of written accounts from Egypt, Israel, and Jordan. Throw in a picture of Yasser Arafat and an Israeli identity card in a Gazan tunnel. We will then get another opportunity to say Herodotus made up Palaistínē too. Contemporaries view different cultures differently. We must remember that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and history is always viewed though a murky lens.